first date advice, first online date, online dating advice, meaning of an open relationship, alpha male traits

I’ve discussed the ever-rising divorce rates on this blog many times, but I haven’t really delved into statistics regarding cheating and infidelity. Today we will look at what the stats can tell us. Fair warning: if you’re a defender of monogamy, you’re not going to like what the stats are about to show you.

As always, we need to start with our definitions. Many people have different definitions of infidelity or cheating, so we need to clear this up first. Some people think texting sweet messages to an ex is considered cheating. Other people think that even things like getting a blowjob isn’t cheating because it’s not full-on sex. Some other people even think that watching porn is cheating.

Who’s right and who’s wrong? That’s a matter of opinion, but I can give you mine, which I think is the most accurate and rational, because I’m an arrogant jerk who thinks he’s always right. Per the glossary, the definition of cheating is:

Cheating – The act of promising monogamy to someone then getting sexual with someone else without the first person’s permission. Though society hates to admit it, cheating is a cultural norm and is widely practiced. Cheating is sometimes viewed as “easier” than establishing honest open relationships. (In some extreme cases of irrationality, cheating is considered “more respectful” than having an open relationship.) Cheating almost always leads to drama and usually leads to bad breakups and is thus never a good idea, polyamory, open relationships, or serial monogamy being much better options.

To narrow things down, we need to define what “getting sexual” means. When I use the term cheating or infidelity, that means someone who has verbally promised sexual monogamy engages in physical and sexual contact with someone else. The word “and” is important in there, since in order to be actual cheating, the contact must be physical and sexual. If it’s one without the other, it cannot be considered cheating. Inappropriate perhaps, against the relationship’s rules perhaps, but not cheating.

For example, physical, sexual contact means things like kissing, groping, boob-sucking, oral sex, actual sex, and everything like that. Things like hugging and playful touching do not count, since these are physical but not sexual. Sending sweet, romantic, or even sexual texts to someone is also not cheating, since that’s sexual but not physical. It’s bad, but it’s not cheating. You need both aspects in order to truly be cheating, at least in my opinion.

Certainly if you have a monogamous partner or OLTR who is sending romantic messages to someone else, I agree that’s a violation of the relationship and a shitty thing to do, and you have every right to get upset about it, but it’s not cheating. Cheating requires both sexual intent and physical contact.

So if you have a girlfriend or wife you’ve promised monogamy to (you dumbshit) and you give your ex-girlfriend a big hug, this is not cheating. Neither is giving her a friendly kiss on the cheek. But as soon as you squeeze her ass or kiss her on the mouth, boom, now you’re a cheater. If you later try to deny you cheated, then you’re also a liar.

Cheating Is Not Monogamy

Since cheating is sexual activity, those who cheat are not monogamous, by definition. That’s why I use the term “monogamous” in quotes to differentiate those who are truly monogamous (they’re only having sex with one person and that one person is only having sex with them) from those who are pretending to be monogamous, but are not.

Over the years, I’ve had defensive married men (and some married women) try to tell me that they’re monogamous while they’re cheating on their spouses. Nope, sorry, you aren’t. If you are cheating, you’re having sex with multiple people. This is not monogamy. It’s sad that I have to explain such simple English concepts to some people. It might feel like you’re monogamous, it might look like you’re monogamous to the outside world, but you are not monogamous. You’re pair bonded, but not monogamous. Pair bonding is just fine (I’m pair bonded myself). But sexual monogamy doesn’t work, and one does not require the other.

Cheating “monogamous” people are essentially in dysfunctional OLTRs. I have even told women that if they take back their boyfriend who cheated on them, they’re basically in an open relationship. You’re dating him, and he’s fucking other women, and you’re not leaving him. You might be screaming at him, but if you took him back, you’re not leaving him. That’s an open relationship, Sweetie, just a very high drama, dishonest, dysfunctional one.

Along those lines, what if you’re in a “monogamous” relationship and you are not cheating but your partner is? Well, that means you are monogamous, but you’re not in a monogamous relationship. You’re only in a monogamous relationship if you’re not having sex with anyone else and your partner isn’t either. If your wife or girlfriend is having sex with other men and you are not having sex with other women, you’re pretty much a “monogamous” cuckold. And a beta too.

Infidelity Stats

Now let’s look at the stats. As I’ve said many times, since monogamy doesn’t work, the majority of men and women in free societies will cheat on their “monogamous” partners eventually, assuming the relationship/marriage lasts long enough, and you’re about to see this reflected in the stats. However, because of 50-70% divorce rates and 85% break up rates, many people tend to break up before cheating occurs.

In other words, since everyone hates long-term sexual monogamy, virtually everyone under the age of 60 in a relationship or marriage eventually has sex with someone else. It’s simply a question of whether or not they formally end the relationship with the first person before they fuck the second person. Sometimes they do (which is called a “divorce” or a “break up”) and sometimes they don’t (which is called “cheating” or “infidelity”). Ah, monogamy.

Because of all this, you need to remember that every statistic you ever see regarding cheating/infidelity is artificially low. Many, if not most of these people are ending the relationship/marriage so they can have sex with someone else before they “cheat.” If your girlfriend fucks your brother, she cheated, but if she dumps you and then fucks your brother, she didn’t cheat at all, thus she won’t show up in these cheating statistics. The point is she still banged your brother.

If you two hadn’t broken up and had actually stayed together for 25 years (unlikely), the odds are overwhelming she would have eventually fucked your brother anyway. So the only reason she didn’t “cheat” in the first scenario was because she didn’t stay with you long enough to do so. Thus, the cheating stats are artificially lower in relation to actual human behavior and desires.

Over the years I’ve had various serial monogamous women brag to me that they’ve never cheated on a guy. Almost every time, under my questioning, it’s revealed that these women have never had a relationship that lasted longer than two or three years. Well shit, of course you haven’t cheated yet, Sweetheart! You keep dumping guys before you hit the boredom point of three years where the need for you to cheat becomes too strong. Stick with one guy for 20 years straight, and then come back and tell me you’ve never cheated. Ha! Odds are you won’t be able to honestly make that claim.

Also, remember that women are Societally Programmed to either not discuss or lie about past sexual partners. Thus, in cheating statistics that rely on surveys, you can accurately predict that a huge percentage of women, if not most of them, are lying about whether or not they’ve ever cheated, or how often they have. Some men, particularly the more religious ones, will lie about this as well.

That means the cheating stats you read are even lower, again.

Thirdly, as I talked about with divorce, just because someone hasn’t cheated on their partner yet doesn’t mean they never will in the future. For example, most married women and married beta males take a few years of marriage before they cheat. They need the Getting Married NRE to die down and the babies to get a little older before they do that. (Married Alpha Male 1.0s don’t need to wait and can and do cheat at any time. Married Alpha Male 2.0s aren’t dumb enough to promise absolute sexual monogamy, so they’re exempt from all this garbage.)

So if you have a survey full of people who have been married for less than three years, this is going to skew the infidelity statistics down, because they haven’t been married long enough to cheat yet. As I’ve explained before, if you want truly accurate stats about this stuff, you need to only survey people who have been married a long time, as in 10 or 15 years or more.

Because of these three reasons, you can easily increase any stat you ever read regarding cheating/infidelity from 10% to perhaps 100% or more. Remember this as we go through the specific stats. Here we go…

1. 57% of men and 54% of women admitted they’ve cheated on someone before. [*] By the way, that means most people have admitted to cheating, since more than 50% = “most.” And remember, that’s just the people who are admitting it.

2. 41% of married couples admit to some form of cheating. [*] Many of the others are lying. The actual figure is higher.

3. 31% of marriages last after cheating after it has been discovered. [*] Yep. Read this blog post I made about that.

4. 74% of married men and 68% of married women say they would cheat on their spouse if they knew they wouldn’t get caught. [*] Think about that for a minute. I’m serious. Really think about that. Still think long-term monogamy is a good idea?

5. 30-60% of all married individuals will cheat on their spouses at some point in the future, and these numbers are estimated to be “on the conservative side” [*] I personally think the real number is around 75%. In other words, if you have a marriage that somehow beats the odds and lasts 25 years or more, you’re looking at a 75% probability or more that you or her will cheat during those 25 years (unless both of you were over the age 60 when you got married; as I’ve explained before, monogamous marriage can work just fine for people who are already old).

6. The more people you’ve had sex with, the more likely you are to cheat if you get married. [*] This is true for women AND MEN. Many manosphere bloggers love to point this out about women, but they always conveniently neglect to show that this applies to men too. As I’ve been saying for many years, if you’re a badass Alpha / player / PUA who has banged a lot of girls, you are now incapable of a long-term monogamous relationship. You’ll cheat on her. And you’ll get caught. This renders the usual PUA / manosphere advice of “fuck a lot of girls for many years, and then when you’re older settle down and get monogamous” as horrible, destructive advice for men. Settle down if you want to, but do it as an OLTR Marriage, not as a societal, monogamous one. That shit doesn’t work anymore.

7. Cheating in society is increasing, just like divorce rates are increasing. Between 1991 and 2006, the numbers of unfaithful wives under 30 increased by 20% and husbands by a whopping 45%. [*] To quote from the article, “The rise in infidelity has caught some marriage experts off-guard.” As I’ve demonstrated before, most of these Societally Programmed marriage researchers are absolute idiots, and often don’t even want to admit to the clear data they’re seeing right before their own eyes. Long-term monogamy doesn’t fucking work in a free society, folks. Let’s all be adults here and have the balls to admit it.

After seeing these stats and rising, sky-high divorce rates, look me in the eye and tell me that long-term sexual monogamy is a good idea.

Pair bond, sure. Get sexually monogamous, no. Unless you love drama and problems of course.

73 Comments on “How Often People Cheat – The Real Stats

  1. Cheating = Penis in vagina sex

    Only women can cheat because only women can get babies. Its realllllly easy if you look at it that way.

  2. I’ve do admit, BD, that even after all those years of pickup artistry, somehow I bought the ideia that I would eventually settle down for some nice girl and have a monogamous marriage with a couple of kids. I was unconsciously trying to emulate my parents’ marriage (which had its fair share of problems BTW).

    The more I read your blog and contemplate on your arguments, the more I spot the BS of long lasting monogamy. I’m almost taking the leap towards polyamory. Right now, I’m in NRE with a new GF (5 month relationship), so I guess, at least for now, that I wouldn’t worry that much about she cheating on me. If we make it longer than 2 years, I guess I would make the statistics.

  3. So she wants me to promise monogamy. Which I won’t. She pushes it further on the basis that she is monogamous with me. Eventually of course (after 3 years or so) she “cheats” (in her mind not mine). So when I told her I knew about the other bloke she turns bright red (suggesting that she feels guilty, even though I have told her that she can do what she likes) and when she calms down a bit, asks me why I am not jealous.

    I rest my case. 🙂

  4. Maybe because of not enough experience with both at the same time, my mind has yet to reconcile the idea of pair-bonding with the idea of letting your girl be  non-monogamous. I will say that I am comfortable with pair-bonding and non-monogamy as long as I am the only one doing the non-monogamy. Growing up in a more “macho” Latino culture doesn’t help either. What perspective am I missing?

  5. I had discovered your blog yesterday and today spent good 6 hours reading it.

    Its quite interesting and I found some valuable ideas here. But this post is simply shitty. Its biased as hell.

    Because of all this, you need to remember that every statistic you ever see regarding cheating/infidelity is artificially low. Many, if not most of these people are ending the relationship/marriage so they can have sex with someone else before they “cheat.” If your girlfriend fucks your brother, she cheated, but if she dumps you and then fucks your brother, she didn’t cheat at all, thus she won’t show up in these cheating statistics. The point is she still banged your brother.

    You try to wide cheating definition to include potential/hypotethical future cheating that never happend. This is purely stupid. Using your logic I can say that car accidents stats are artificially low because drivers at some point reach their homes and leave theirs car. If they kept driving they would finally cause car accident.

    Come on, where is your rationality you brag around?

    Nevertheless, good blog.

  6. Omar: it’s hard to tell what arguments will help you to accept this. Here’s what helped me:

    1. Most likely, she won’t get sexual with other guys anyway. One is enough for most women.

    2. It brings great peace of mind not to have to verify her faithfulness. She’s offline, where is she?! Who’s this guy commenting on her photos?! Years ago, I would cyber-stalk girls like that—not anymore.

    3. I’m unafraid to talk about her other partners, not caring about whether they’re in the past or in the present. Such talk is quite informative and also quite arousing. And if she lets me know what things others did (and/or do) to her that feel great, I can outdo them.

    4. It’s just fair for terms for both sides to be equivalent.

    5. When she breaks up with me, there won’t be anger and resentment, and eventually she’ll come back.

  7. Lukasz: If I were to marry a woman in a Traditional Monogamous Marriage, the only metric I would care about is how likely it is that she would be with me, and with me only, forever. So it’s valid to combine risk of divorce and risk of cheating, because either ruins a TMM. (Also why not throw in the risk of being together, staying monogamous, but resenting each other.)

  8. I’ve been saying for years that cheating is far more common than people think.  I personally know many couples with cheating involved.  Being more open about myself being non-monogamous has brought the storied out of the woodwork.  They obviously don’t talk about it publicly since there’s a level of embarrassment for the one cheated on as well.  Also as you pointed out, these surveys will always be low since many will not admit to cheating or rationalize what they did.

    Here’s a fun anecdote…I know a married girl who does not consider what she’s doing cheating(which is full blown sex with multiple men over the years) because she’s no longer sexual with her husband.  This would be fine if they had an OLTR but in his mind, it’s TMM.  It gets better-I was having sex with this women prior to knowing she was married(she lied about it initially then fessed up much later).  Being an open relationship guy, I didn’t promise monogamy to her to begin with, which she accepted.  Eventually, her friends made ME out to to be the bad guy because I was openly dating other women while SHE was still sneaking around.  Can’t make this shit up.

  9. @Omar:

    What perspective am I missing?

    You’re putting your woman on a pedestal and worshipping her. You are guarding her like some type of precious diamond and are keeping her locked away while spying on her with massive surveillance and “protecting” her with electric fences and laser guided missiles.

    Okay, maybe you’re not doing that. But it’s the same mindset. You’re pedestaling the bitch! Who gives a fuck if she has sex with another man? Why do you care what a woman does when she’s not in your presence? You’re being needy, insecure, controlling, territorial, and old fashioned.

    Women are NOT that important. Your thinking is needy, beta, and Disney. This female purity garbage needs to stop! If she has casual sex with another man on the side (or seven) it’s not the end of the world. She still loves you. It doesn’t threaten the relationship. It’s just casual sex. Just like when you fuck another woman, it doesn’t mean you love your girlfriend any less (it has nothing to do with her). Maybe you can ask your girl to invite the other guy over and you can have a tag team with him.

    Stop treating women like they are some precious material that need to be hoarded and guarded from others like plutonium. They’re just women dude! They’re not princesses. Or even if they were royalty, I’d still tell them to drop that bullshit around me.

    Bottom line – sex is no big deal. Who cares if she fucks others? Stop pedestaling her like a beta.

  10. lukasz you are missing the point. It is not artificially low because “they might cheat you down the road”. It is artificially low because women break up with you and then go fuck/kiss with the other man when they had him as an orbiter, instead of doing it while they were with you. They don’t want to look as cheaters so they break up and then do the “cheating”. As per the definition of BD this is not really cheating. But really what do you label it, when your mono wife plays around with your best friend behind your back(no kissing, no sex just flirting) for months then she develops emotions for him and decides to divorce you so she can go fuck him? Is that really biased?

  11. Using your logic I can say that car accidents stats are artificially low because drivers at some point reach their homes and leave theirs car. If they kept driving they would finally cause car accident.

    Actually, you can’t say that. Accident stats are measured per capita and per total vehicle mileage. It has nothing to do with the distance traveled on one particular trip, and even if they did continue driving until they had an accident they would contribute additional accident free miles to the pool before that happened.

    Also, the sex isn’t hypothetical. People actually break up with one person in order to have sex with someone else, and the only reason it doesn’t count as cheating is because they had a conversation first.  It’s a loophole. But regardless of whether it’s considered cheating or not, it’s still a failure of monogamy which is the larger point.

  12. @Jack Outside the Box

    Bottom line – sex is no big deal. Who cares if she fucks others? Stop pedestaling her like a beta.

    I agree that if a woman is having condomed sex with another dude, it doesn’t have to be a big deal.  In practice though, I believe most women prefer serial monogamy.  Once she begins to have sex outside of her relationship then she is very likely to start experiencing NRE for the new dude.  This unfortunately means that she will soon despise you and bring about the end of your relationship.

    I think that is why men are so protective.  It means that he’ll have to do the work of securing a new sexual partner.  For those that don’t have plates this means starting from scratch.  Arrrgh.

  13. @Dead Vargas:

    Right now, I’m in NRE with a new GF (5 month relationship), so I guess, at least for now, that I wouldn’t worry that much about she cheating on me.

    LOL! Oh man……if you only knew!

    @Anon:

    1. Most likely, she won’t get sexual with other guys anyway. One is enough for most women.

    Jesus, where the fuck are you guys getting this “female purity” crap? IT’S NOT TRUE!!!

    Let me illustrate from my life:

    I’m currently sleeping with a married woman. My girlfriend’s lesbian fuck buddy hooked us up recently and she’s a very different (much more conservative) woman than the women that my girlfriend tends to hook me up with (yes, the lesbian runs with a more conservative crowd, if you can believe it).

    So let me tell you a few things about this woman – the married one I’m fucking, not my girl’s lesbian fuck buddy, lol:

    She’s a 32 year old mother of one who has been married to her husband for a little bit LESS than one year. They dated for 2 years before getting married and he got her pregnant a year and a half (give or take) into the relationship (she was 29 or 30, I believe).

    Anyway, here are the four bombshells for all of you purity fetishists:

    1. She is one of the most outwardly conservative women I’ve ever had sex with. She presents herself (especially to her husband) as the perfect “nice girl” wife. She attends church regularly, occasionally participates in “soul winning” (going door to door to teach people about Jesus), and likes to participate in “community activism.” I think the mayor of her suburb even gave her an award for something one time (I’ll have to ask her).

    2. She told me about her past sexual history. When she and her husband first started dating, she was (at the time) sleeping with two men. Them becoming monogamous did not stop her from screwing her two other fuck buddies. When she got pregnant, she worried that the child might not be her boyfriend’s. So she secretly took a paternity test and was relieved to find out it’s his. After they got married, she vowed never to cheat again with someone that it counts with.

    Her standards for what counts and what doesn’t have become stricter ever since they married. Now, in order for it to “not count,” the man must not live in the same town, must be a total stranger to her husband, must not be involved in any of her personal, professional, church, or community outreach activities, must be of a different ethnicity than her husband, and must look very different from him. As long as this is true and the “other man” is blatantly marked off from her life, she sincerely believes that it doesn’t count, so she has no guilt whatsoever. And yes, she’s having regular sex with her husband and only occasional sex with me.

    3. Her husband (a typical church beta) sees her as the perfect conservative wife. The idea that she has ever slept with anyone but him since they went monogamous is beyond laughable to him (when in truth, she was already cheating on him with two other dudes that she was fucking prior to their relationship, so she technically cheated on DAY ONE of the mono arrangement – NONE OF THIS THREE YEARS CRAP!).

    4. She met my girlfriend’s lesbian fuck buddy when she knocked on the lesbian’s door to talk to the lesbian about Jesus. They became fast friends.

    Seriously guys! All you tradcons, you “my girlfriend is a conservative good girl who would never do that” types of guys, and you “my girlfriend won’t cheat on me yet because we’ve only been together for 5 days and we’re still in NRE types of guys: PLEASE WAKE UP!

    Monogamy is a myth! Just get over it and embrace our brave new poly world!

  14. Number 4 should be 74% of men say they would cheat if they knew they wouldn’t get caught and the other 26% are lying.  This coming from a guy who actually has never cheated.

  15. @Jack Outside the Box

    I will definitely take your advice into consideration. Thanks for the reply. But serious question, at what point does this mentality that you have adopted become the same mentality that makes a man a Cuckold? Not trying to be a smart ass.

    Also, how much of this is dependent on the mentality that you choose to adopt vs what your genes and your hormones dictate? Testosterone and nature, I believe, has a lot of influence on how a male reacts to “infidelity.”

  16. So she wants me to promise monogamy.

    I have run into numerous women who demanded monogamy while they were cheating on someone, or had just recently cheated on someone.

    Cognitive dissonance is funny.

    I will say that I am comfortable with pair-bonding and non-monogamy as long as I am the only one doing the non-monogamy.

    That isn’t long-term sustainable.

    Growing up in a more “macho” Latino culture doesn’t help either.

    I’m about to put up a post specifically for Latin men. Stay tuned.

    Bottom line, what you’re describing is Societal Programming, and Societal Programming is wrong.

    What perspective am I missing?

    The “I can fuck other women but she can’t fuck other men” model is not long-term sustainable in the Western world. If all you want are a string of short-term relationships, then that model will “work.” You’ll experience a lot of drama, but it will “work”. Otherwise, if you want longer relationships, you’re going to need a different model. And since absolute sexual monogamy clearly doesn’t work, that only leaves one way left…

    But this post is simply shitty. Its biased as hell.

    I’m extremely biased. I’m also right.

    Almost all information sources are biased. Your job is to determine which are objectively accurate and which are not.

    Using your logic I can say that car accidents stats are artificially low because drivers at some point reach their homes and leave theirs car. If they kept driving they would finally cause car accident.

    Incorrect. Read John’s comment response to you above. He pretty much pointed out exactly what I was going to say. If you live in a quiet, low population suburb, your odds of getting into a car accident on your current trip is far less if you drive for two minutes down the street than it is if you drive across country from New York to LA.

    Once she begins to have sex outside of her relationship then she is very likely to start experiencing NRE for the new dude.  This unfortunately means that she will soon despise you and bring about the end of your relationship.

    Absolutely incorrect and an utter KJ statement. That’s a great example of someone making excuses who has never actually done it.

    I’ve had scores of nonmonogamous relationships over the last 10 years, and not one woman, I mean this now, not one ever came to “despise me” about it.

    The worst case scenario is a woman might LSFNTE me and then come back a little later. That’s as bad as it gets, if you even want to call that “bad.”

    Please actually try these things a few times with a few women, using the correct techniques, before you make bullshit excuses about how it won’t work.

  17. Number 4 should be 74% of men say they would cheat if they knew they wouldn’t get caught and the other 26% are lying.  This coming from a guy who actually has never cheated.

    Haha! Yes!

    (Women too, by the way, again, assuming the relationship lasts long enough.)

    at what point does this mentality that you have adopted become the same mentality that makes a man a Cuckold?

    You’d have to explain why a man with a wife or girlfriend who is is allowed to fuck other guys if she wants, and who usually will not be, (as I explain in detail in my book), while the man is out banging hot young chicks on the side all the time, is a “cuckold.”

    To me, a cuck is a pussy beta who sits at home alone while his wife/GF is out getting banged by other guys (particularly guys of higher SMV). That is literally the opposite of the lifestyle I recommend.

  18. I’ve never promised monogamy or been in an exclusive relationship (like it was clear it wasn’t monogamous) – so I can say I honestly never cheated.

    I’ve definitely been in morally ambiguous gray areas though. Like, even with FB chicks I said we weren’t monogamous, they definitely didn’t want to hear about me being with other women and probably wanted monogamy at some point, so I would feel a bit guilty sometimes. I never promised anything or manipulated anyone though, so can’t say I cheated. Never lied about shit either, was more of a ‘don’t ask don’t tell.’

  19. >>1. Most likely, she won’t get sexual with other guys anyway. One is enough for most women.

    >Jesus, where the fuck are you guys getting this “female purity” crap? IT’S NOT TRUE!!!

    BD is saying the same, do you think he’s also in the female purity camp?

    Most women are serial monogamists, and if they’re getting whatever it is they need from one man, they have no need for another one. I had one FB, who later moved away, who was quite “impure”, to the point of actually offering sex when her friend zone orbiters would do her favors; but all the others (granted, I can’t boast a huge sample size), I feel, aren’t seeing anyone else but me. I may be mistaken, possibly significantly so, thankfully I taught myself not to care.

    I actually prefer energetically slutty personas, and I’m currently feeling a lack in that department. But I’m sure everything is possible with some effort.

  20. I’ve never promised monogamy or been in an exclusive relationship (like it was clear it wasn’t monogamous) – so I can say I honestly never cheated.

    Same here. With the exception of years ago when I was married, I’ve never promised monogamy to anyone, so I’ve never cheated in my entire life. (I didn’t cheat when I was married, though I wanted to really badly.)

    I’ve definitely been in morally ambiguous gray areas though. Like, even with FB chicks I said we weren’t monogamous, they definitely didn’t want to hear about me being with other women and probably wanted monogamy at some point, so I would feel a bit guilty sometimes. I never promised anything or manipulated anyone though, so can’t say I cheated. Never lied about shit either, was more of a ‘don’t ask don’t tell.’

    There is nothing morally ambiguous about what you did, as long as you didn’t act like a monogamous boyfriend, and it sounds like you didn’t. You didn’t promise monogamy, and you didn’t act like a boyfriend. Morally and ethically, you’re in the clear, regardless of what women may want from you or assume.

    Most women are serial monogamists, and if they’re getting whatever it is they need from one man, they have no need for another one

    Yes. This is generally true for most women over the age of 23, though there are exceptions.

    Humans cheat because biologically, humans are not monogamous creatures (pair bonding creatures yes, monogamous creatures no). However, the two genders tend to cheat for very different reasons. Women over age 23 in long-term relationships tend to cheat not because of horniness, but because of sadness, boredom, resentment, loneliness, and/or other unmet emotional needs. Men cheat because we’re always horny. This is why the surveys show that over 70% of married men who cheat report that they are happy in their marriage, but this is not true of women who cheat.

  21. @Omar:

    I will definitely take your advice into consideration. Thanks for the reply. But serious question, at what point does this mentality that you have adopted become the same mentality that makes a man a Cuckold? Not trying to be a smart ass.

    I’ve never understood the connection. A cuckold is a man who has sex with no one but his girlfriend – and even sex with his girl he only has occasionally while she screams at him to “hurry up” – while she is out fucking the shit out of other men as he stays home and plays video games!

    You’re talking about a woman who wants this man as her boyfriend for non-sexual reasons – he’s financially stable, supports her, etc… while she openly sleeps with the men she is really attracted to without having to go through the headache of lying and hiding.

    That’s a cuckold.

    What I’m advocating is fucking other women on the side (who are just as hot or hotter than your girl), while your girl does the same with other men. You may even swap stories. And you are, of course, having regular sex with your girlfriend every time you see her.

    Plus, in addition to you sleeping with other women and her sleeping with other men, you may also have threesomes together, foursomes together, partner switch together, have group sex together, go to sex parties/swingers parties together, and so forth, while being emotionally committed and exclusive with each other. It’s clear that you two fuck each other more than you fuck others and the others are just for play on the side, both separately and together as equal partners.

    That’s not a cuckold.

    A cuckold is when:

    1. Your girlfriend isn’t horny for you.

    2. Your girlfriend is with you for financial or gender neutral reasons.

    3. Your girlfriend never, or rarely, has sex with you.

    4. Your girlfriend is regularly fucking other men and clearly prefers them to you while you masturbate and/or pay her hotel bills and/or play video games.

    5. You aren’t fucking anyone but her – and even then she’s screwing you reluctantly and telling you to “hurry up.”

    Look at the above 5 points. The more of those points you have, the more of a cuckold you are. The less of these five you have, the less of a cuckold you are.

    Notice: You can have zero of the above points AND still be in an open relationship in which both of you are sleeping with other people, both together and separately!

    Also, how much of this is dependent on the mentality that you choose to adopt vs what your genes and your hormones dictate? Testosterone and nature, I believe, has a lot of influence on how a male reacts to “infidelity.”

    I’m not sure I’m smart enough to answer this, but in my case, I always had a sexually liberated mindset and was very turned on by girls who sleep around, and turned off by the pink and nice girly girls. Although I did believe in monogamy for the longest time, I’ve cheated on virtually every girl I’ve ever been monogamous with. And most of the girls I was with cheated on me (those who didn’t I can’t verify whether they did or not).

    I came to the conclusion after my last mono girl cheated on me that monogamy doesn’t work, and since all of us are in open relationships anyway, we might as well be honest about it, because the only alternative is lying and hiding.

    Important point: Only one girlfriend that I ever had that cheated on me caused problems in the relationship as a result of her cheating – she wouldn’t fuck me, she would tense up when I touched her etc… She was more on the girly girl side. But when all the others were cheating on me, our relationship was great until I found out they were cheating. But when I was in the dark, we were in love, had lots of sex, and the relationship was awesome! So I asked myself, – Why destroy a beautiful thing just because she may pick up a random dude at a club and fuck the shit out of him during a girls’ night out? It seems like such a waste. As long as it doesn’t threaten the relationship, let her do what she wants. And I can do what I want to without lying or hiding anymore as well. So that’s a bonus. 🙂

  22. @Jarod:

    I agree that if a woman is having condomed sex with another dude, it doesn’t have to be a big deal.  In practice though, I believe most women prefer serial monogamy.  Once she begins to have sex outside of her relationship then she is very likely to start experiencing NRE for the new dude.  This unfortunately means that she will soon despise you and bring about the end of your relationship.

    I think that is why men are so protective.  It means that he’ll have to do the work of securing a new sexual partner.  For those that don’t have plates this means starting from scratch.  Arrrgh.

    What I’m about to say is purely due to my personal experience, nothing more. Take it for what it’s worth:

    Based on what you just said, you are failing to distinguish between guys who “count” as cheating vs. guys who “don’t count.”

    You are absolutely right in everything you said, as far as guys who count are concerned.

    So, for example, women are serial monogamists in the sense that they will never cheat on their boyfriends – with guys who count – until they get bored and become dissatisfied with the relationship (usually after the 3 year mark). When your girlfriend stops giving you sex, starts arguing with you more and more, starts becoming bitchy, etc…, then yes, she’s looking for a new boyfriend, which means she will start cheating on you with guys who, in her mind, count. So everything you said is correct!

    BUT, nothing you said is correct when it comes to guys that “don’t count.” These are the so called “secret society” men who “get it.” They don’t want a serious relationship, never force her to choose between them and you, are completely nonjudgmental with zero double standards, and are usually completely cornered off from her professional and personal life. These are the “zero consequences” guys and the “vacation pass” guys.

    When it comes to the men who “don’t count as cheating,” she could be insanely happy with the relationship and totally in love with you, but she’ll fuck those exciting guys anyway as long as she believes she’ll never get caught. And she’ll do it for reasons that have nothing to do with you! These guys just do it for her.

    And when it comes to these guys who don’t count, she can be in a new relationship with a boyfriend only for the last two weeks (and she’s still in NRE mode), but it doesn’t matter, because this other dude doesn’t count as cheating.

    Note: Although many women have different definitions from other women about what constitutes a man who doesn’t count. The only three common denominators are men who are totally nonjudgmental, super discrete, and just present themselves as fun and “no strings attached.” One of my monogamous girlfriends (way back in my blue pill days), told me that she cheated on an ex-boyfriend with his brother saying, “well they have the same blood, so it doesn’t count. He was just an exciting extension of my boyfriend.”  

     

  23. @Anon:

    BD is saying the same, do you think he’s also in the female purity camp?

    Most women are serial monogamists, and if they’re getting whatever it is they need from one man, they have no need for another one.

    I don’t know. Is it just me? I’ve had many men corroborate my stories with their own experiences as well. Maybe I just instinctively stay away from the truly conservative Disney girls who only fuck one man at a time (since they’re not exciting anyway). But I think that explanation only goes so far (as my current married FB indicates).

    There are definitely more women than you think who crave multiple men, even in mono relationships. It’s not about needing another one. It’s about wanting another one. My girlfriend is poly and all her female friends are poly. Her lesbian FB has more conservative friends and she told me that virtually all of them have at least one extra lover on the side while their boyfriends/husbands have no idea.

    So yeah, this whole thing about women being “serial monogamists” and rarely or never cheating before the first 3 years of the relationship expire is tough for me to buy. That certainly hasn’t been my experience. Or maybe I just shun the real female tradcon prudes. I don’t know.

    What I do know for a fact is that more women are cheating on boyfriends/husbands whom they are very in love with and happy with before the 3 year mark than you and most people think!

  24. What perspective am I missing?

    Easy. Her sleeping with other men has NOTHING to do with you. It’s her life, not yours.

    It doesn’t mean she loves you less, or that she respects you less, or that your dick isn’t satisfying her, or that you’re not man enough for her. She is an individual, she is on a life journey, part of that journey is finding her sexuality. Let her live her life and stop interfering.

    A jealous man is an insecure man.

  25. I’ve had a bit of an epiphany recently.

    1. I was wondering why women enter into relationships with (selected) men in the first place.  Unattractive guys with no game get attractive women.  Fat guys who act like idiots get attractive women. Attractive guys get attractive women.  This perplexed me.  Guys with game, no game, who were attractive and who were unattractive were all getting/dating attractive women.

    2. On the other hand… there are allot of guys who can’t get dates and can’t get laid.  These men also fall into the same exact categories of men (game/no game/attractive/unattractive).   This made no sense to me.

     

    I sat down and really thought about it.

    I applied some rational (perhaps even BD-isk) thinking.  What do all of these unlike men have in common?  What was the common denominator  that all of these identical men in set 2 were some how missing?  What was this seemingly invisible thing that the men in set 1 somehow had but the men in set 2 were unknowingly without?  The answer, the one common denominator in all cases, turned out to be  Assets and/or access to drugs

     

    Whether you had game, no game, were attractive and well kept or fat, unattractive and not well kept… basically if  you had a nice house for a woman to stay in (or) access to drugs to give to them, you would be able to attain an attractive woman (for a while).  This was the one common denominator.  I think this goes back to evolution where women needed trade sex for food and shelter.  Except now, in modern times, food and shelter translates to a nice house and free and open access to pot (or) drugs of her choice.

    In my opinion, assets is the single most deciding factor when it comes to fucking (repeatedly) and dating an attractive woman. This confuses people when they see a poor-as-shit unattractive guy with a hot girlfriend. The issue here is that “assets” does not mean what people think that it means.  You can be poor as shit and unshaven but still have free access to drugs and a day to day party lifestyle.  Essentially, you can be poor but still have “assets” in the eyes of women who are looking for that kind of thing (hot/young little pot heads who just want to drink and party).

     

    We live in the age of welfare where food is not as important as it used to be.  Divorce means the woman can walk away from any relationship with 1/2 of the assets.  So the men that they choose to enter into a relationship with are men who can offer them their desired lifestyle.  An engineer who has money.  A bum who has all the right connections.  If you fit into one of these two categorize you can attain (relationship) and repeatedly fuck attractive women (for a while).   However since food and shelter are not so important to them anymore (welfare and living with mom) they will be willing to exit any relationship they get bored with (and they will get bored) and cheat.  Most women will have their “assets guy” and their “guy on the side” to fuck around with.  I think that this is the way that they like it.  Divorce just means they get all your stuff and get to do the whole thing all over again.  But when they chose the next guy he will have one of these two things or she will not “relationship” him.   She may fuck them a couple of times… but she won’t say “this is my boyfriend/love/lover/husband” unless he has one of the two.

    Just my opinion (still in development)

  26. Okay, now I’m starting to catch your drift, BD.
    Honestly, I have cheated during every LTR since age 25. I did love these women very much, but I either got bored or the pair bond was great but she was a lousy lay (I’m patient, fwiw)

    The poly thing weirds me out but makes sense.

  27. Assets and/or access to drugs

    You’re on the right track, but you’re being a unnecessarily specific. It’s not intrinsically assets or drugs, but rather what they represent.

    Women feel a certain kind of attraction towards providers. Possession of desirable assets can sub-communicate provider qualities, but there are other ways to achieve this without assets.

    Women also feel a certain kind of attraction towards men who can satisfy them sexually without complicating their social/life agenda. A man who can achieve success in a way that circumvents the socio-political status quo (e.g. a drug dealer) will be very attractive to a woman who has highly suppressed sexual needs.

    The drugs themselves are unimportant. Women know they can generally flirt with a guy and get anything they want without having sex. If a girl is fucking a drug dealer, it’s because she’s sexually attracted to him, plain and simple.

    Also keep in mind that, in many of those unattractive men + attractive women couples, they are not actually having regular sex. It all depends on his frame and their overall chemistry. If you watch a couple interact with each other for a few minutes, you can usually tell if they have a sexual relationship or not.

    Honestly, I have cheated during every LTR since age 25.

    Same :/ I haven’t been sexually monogamous in any relationship, ever since I was a teen. But what really scared me was that I never realized this about myself until I found this blog. I’d been in denial all my life, and probably still would be if not for this wonderful sanctuary.

  28. The answer, the one common denominator in all cases, turned out to be  Assets and/or access to drugs

    I think that’s an oversimplification but you’re not completely wrong.

    Okay, now I’m starting to catch your drift, BD.
    Honestly, I have cheated during every LTR since age 25. I did love these women very much, but I either got bored or the pair bond was great but she was a lousy lay (I’m patient, fwiw)

    The poly thing weirds me out but makes sense.

    GREAT comment. It’s indicative of what most “normal” guys think when they start reading this stuff. They know deep down that something is very wrong, and that societal relationships don’t work, but at the same time they can’t think of or emotionally accept any alternatives, so they’re not sure what to do.
    My advice: Don’t think of this stuff as “poly.” “Poly” is a weird, threatening word that conjures up all the wrong images (huge wild sex parties, your girlfriend getting fucked by 12 guys, your wife falling in love with another man, etc). No no no. Get the word “poly” or “polyamory” out of your head, and instead replace it with this: You have a girlfriend or wife and you’re both allowed to get a little on the side when needed, and usually she won’t need it like you do. That’s it. Just about any guy can handle that.
    Keep this stuff simple.
  29. @John Smith:

    Goddammit dude! Opinions like yours really disgust me. They are the cliché products of the tradcon manosphere – “all women are either gold digging whores or drug addicts!”

    Dude, knock it off! With few exceptions, you’re completely wrong.

    Fact #1: I have never given a woman money or materialistic resources.

    Fact #2: I have never given a woman drugs.

    Fact #3: I am enjoying a successful sex life.

    And I have no idea where you’re getting the retarded notion that men with game don’t get laid if they have no money or drugs! Every man with game gets laid! It’s true that gold diggers and drug addicts will reject him, no matter how much game he has, but he still gets laid with other girls who aren’t gold diggers or drug addicts!

    Here is all you have to do to get laid:

    1. Physically look good

    2. Feel good to the woman (vibe, charm)

    3. Have and employ game (masculinity, dominance, confidence, outcome independence, etc…)

    4. Take care of logistics (have your own house, car, and not be completely broke)

    It has nothing to do with money (barring logistics and transportation) or drugs (unless you’re dealing with trash).

    I am living proof (and so is BD and many other men) that men can and do get laid with game, despite not giving women money or drugs. You claiming that men can’t get laid – even if they have game – unless they give the woman one of those two things is clearly debunked horseshit (as BD, myself, and others testify).

    You’re right about unattractive (physically ugly or gameless) men getting laid precisely because they have money or drugs. But you’re wrong about attractive (physically hot or game possessing) men being celibate unless that have money or drugs (unless they’re only dealing with gold diggers or druggies). That’s anti-game manosphere/tradcon garbage, dude! BD, myself, and many others are proof that you’re completely wrong!

     

     

     

     

  30. @Brick:

    Honestly, I have cheated during every LTR since age 25.

    We all have. Cheating is a sign of normality and red pill maturity. Monogamy is a sign of childish delusion. As I always say, everyone is in an open relationship. The only question is, “do you know it?” Monogamy is a myth. Like the tooth fairy.

    The poly thing weirds me out

    Dude, you just confessed that you’ve been practicing poly all your life!

    The only difference is – imagine doing everything you’ve always been doing, except with honesty! And imagine all your girlfriends acting exactly like they’ve always been acting except with honesty!

    People say things like, “poly weirds me out” or “I know nothing about it.” Buddy, what do you need to know? It’s the same thing you’ve always done in your life. You just add honesty to it!

    Where’s the revolution? Monogamy would be a revolution. Polyamory is maintaining the status quo, except with openness. Why so squeamish?

    But hey, if you’re not strong enough, I much prefer dishonesty (cheating) to the misery of honest monogamy. At least cheating shows some self esteem and a desire for happiness (albeit discreetly).

     

  31. I haven’t been sexually monogamous in any relationship, ever since I was a teen.

    If I remember correctly, there have only been two girlfriends that I have never cheated on AND was monogamous with – my first and my third. Ah, high school. What a dumbass I was!

    I sincerely believe that there are only six types of people who will never cheat on anyone:

    1. Extremely low sex drive individuals for whom sex means next to nothing (bordering on asexuality).

    2. People who lack opportunity due to lack of game.

    3. People who lack opportunity due to physical ugliness (fat women, etc…)

    4. People who lack opportunity due to extreme poverty (bordering on third world conditions), thus causing external circumstances to never allow sex and happiness to be a priority.

    5. People who are mentally ill or severely depressed constantly.

    6. People like BD and my girlfriend who were virtually always open/poly and always had these red pill principles in mind.

    Everyone else cheats, or used to cheat before discovering poly. That’s why (unlike BD, who is against cheating and advocates radical honesty), I think, for most normal and mentally healthy people, cheating is a necessary stepping stone towards eventual sexual enlightenment (for both men and women).

    When you’re still in the blue pill world, cheating is precisely what opens up the real world to you – the world of possibilities, of what could be… This will eventually steer you towards the poly model more easily.

    Despite what BD teaches, I don’t think it’s even possible to convert non-cheaters (the above six people) to poly, unless they are non-cheaters because, like BD and my girlfriend, they were always, more or less, poly to begin with (but such people are rare).

    This is why I always help whatever cheating friends I have to get away with it and a few times recently, I’ve even facilitated some discreet hookups via assistance with logistics, plausible deniability, vouching for them with their significant other (covering their ass), etc…

  32. “Poly” is a weird, threatening word that conjures up all the wrong images (huge wild sex parties, your girlfriend getting fucked by 12 guys,

    For me, those were the right images. Those are the images that first came to my mind when I heard the word “poly” for the first time. And they instantly made me horny and say to myself, “damn, I must find this community and join it.”

    I guess my wish came true only because I’ve never really had that slut shaming instinct and I’ve always rejected the “good girl” type in favor of the wild girl. That’s probably why I’ve gotten cheated on so often (while doing the same myself), which propelled me towards poly even more!

    But some people just have that blue pill territoriality going on that they can’t shake. Alpha 1.0s cheating all the time, but calling their girlfriend “slut” if she does the same. Or girlfriends who cheat all the time while calling their boyfriend “jerk” and “womanizer” if he does the same!

    For those who just can’t let go of that old school slut/stud shaming, discreet cheating and then pretending to be outraged upon getting caught may be their only realistic option of even semi-maintaining their happiness and sanity. It’s sad. But hey, better than mono!

  33. Of course a K-relationship is highly unlikely to work in an r-society. Just one more reason to move elsewhere.

  34. Of course a K-relationship is highly unlikely to work in an r-society. Just one more reason to move elsewhere.

    Saudi Arabia? Afghanistan? The offer still stands. A one way plane ticket just for you dude! 🙂

    Think of all those pure sex-hating virgins. It makes my stomach turn but I’m sure it turns you on.

    Seriously though, why do you want a K relationship?

  35. On assets and providers: I have no idea why, but I do not particularly like providers. I know a few “provider type” men and generally steer clear from them or feel an overwhelming urge to exploit them. Generally I try to be nice and turn down things even against my own desire to rip the guy off, but when they push I will accept things and get a thrill from handing them to Jon later. On the rare occassions we go out, I like when I get a chance to accept drinks at a bar and hand them to my husband in full view of the guy who bought them. It doesn’t apply to all men. One of Jon’s friends does the “king of wealth” Alpha thing and I don’t want to exploit him. He offers gifts to everyone and it’s cool. Jon gets more presents than I do, as he should. When everyone gets things it doesn’t make me want to hurt the person making the gift. But most people are not like that. There is something just plain wrong about how needily most guys push gifts at women and I like to see it backfire. Especially when I make it clear that anything they give is gone for nothing and they still want me to have something. We recently learned about the “Alpha couple” fetish (nearly died laughing], so maybe that’s what they want anyways. Or maybe they really think they can win against the House. Providers are weird.

  36. Of course a K-relationship is highly unlikely to work in an r-society.

    You’re mistaking never getting divorced with cheating, a common error. Humans in K-societies still cheat in massive numbers once the relationship/marriage lasts long enough. It’s not because of K or r; it’s because they’re human. The vast majority of humans can’t do long-term absolute sexual monogamy regardless of K or r.

    Just ask your grandpa or great grandpa about all the pussy he was getting on the side while he was married back in the K-society of the 1950s.

  37. I did love these women very much, but I either got bored or the pair bond was great but she was a lousy lay (I’m patient, fwiw)

    Hi Brick,  I read your comment – what do you consider a lousy lay though?  I mean, what would they have to do or not do to earn that title?  And what does fwiw mean?

    Women over age 23 in long-term relationships tend to cheat not because of horniness, but because of sadness, boredom, resentment, loneliness, and/or other unmet emotional needs.

    This is very true.  I have only cheated on a boyfriend once and it was due to feeling sadness/loneliness and my emotional/physical needs definitely were not being met.  I never felt much guilt afterward though because coincidentally, I never saw this boyfriend again after that incident, so it’s not like I ever had to pretend like things were normal while feeling guilty inside.  I’d like to say that I would never cheat on someone ever again, but I can’t be sure because I can’t predict the future.

  38. r and K is very simple. r’s put themselves before the group. K’s put the group before themselves. The difference is whether and how often they have been in mortal danger.

    The generation that lived through the war did not cheat in nearly the numbers you think. Peoples brains were literally wired differently back then. It’s everyone who came after who does it and think anything else is impossible. r’s can’t understand K’s, because they lack the physical brain alterations that cause it.

  39. The generation that lived through the war did not cheat in nearly the numbers you think.

    I never stated the numbers in which I thought they cheated. I stated they cheated, because they did. Clearly people in the 50s cheated less than people now (as I clearly demonstrated in the above article), but married people in the 50s still cheated as a regular activity. Your implication that K-selected people are lifetime monogamous is incorrect.

  40. Not necessarily, but in some cases, and in far larger numbers than today. And even when they cheated, they often stayed together anyway unlike today. Because the kids matter more than the parents.

  41. even when they cheated, they often stayed together anyway unlike today.

    I know. I’ve said that many times and I just explained to you that we’re discussing cheating, not divorce, and how you’re confusing the two.

    Again I will state that I seriously think you have trouble reading.

  42. Ladies, you need to understand that men are born with a bag of seeds, and thousands of years of biological programming has told men to go and spread those seeds as widely as possible. It’s quite natural and instinctive for a man to find a female, mate, then move onto the next one.

    If your man’s being faithful to you you need to appreciate and understand the torment and self-denial he’s putting himself through in order to be yours and yours alone.

    What he’s doing for you does not come naturally.

  43. They are not disconnected.

    Divorce is also statistically connected to finances, child-raising differences, communication breakdowns, loss of autonomy, and countless other issues.

    Read Glubb first, then we can continue.

    No. You go date some women, compile some meaningful data based on real-world experience, and bring your anecdotes here. Then we can continue.

  44. I wish there was a way to to get the “real” data on cheating rates because the collective denial is amazing.

    We really should only be looking at people with actual opportunities to cheat — people who are attractive enough that other people WANT to engage in “illicit” sexual activity with them — and right off the bat that drastically cuts down the pool. Seriously. Look around at the airport or an amusement park. The fact that some of those people have ever found *anyone* who wants to have sex with them is amazing. Honestly I find it astounding that some people have managed to reproduce and I know that sounds mean but it’s true. There are some seriously fucked-up looking people. Now granted, it’s partially because of their monogamous marriages that many people are willing to let themselves go. But still.

    At the very least, we can say with confidence that probably half of coupled US adults are NEVER subject to someone attempting to seduce them to have a sexual relationship outside of their official relationship. If those people cheat, it’s because they go out of their way to seek it out and/or pay for it, not because the opportunity presented itself. So now we’re down to the remaining 50%, who might actually be subject to seduction or an obvious openness to being seduced. And according to the numbers we have, almost all of those people cheat if they’re in a relationship for long enough. People who have never been monogamous for 3+ years don’t count and people who no one is trying to have sex with don’t count…and of the remainder, the rate is easily 90%.

    But damn, people just can’t handle that reality. They can’t take it. I swear people can accept the fact of death more readily than they can accept that “true love” (i.e. sexual monogamy) doesn’t last. I have the most scandalous girl friends, all of whom have cheated, lied about it, and done some truly depraved things — and yet if I ever so much as suggest to them that lasting love or monogamy is an illusion they get furious at me! They don’t want to hear it and they actually get angry and upset that I even said it — even when I do so gently. I have a friend who has been divorced twice already who literally was banging the mailman in his mail truck in the church parking lot (she said no one ever suspects anything there) during the day while her second husband was at work, while she had an infant — AND THAT’S NOT A MADE-UP STORY — who *still* believes in fairy tale happily-ever-after with “the one” and will lash out at me if I ever say that I think it’s not an ideal worth pursuing. Forget about stating straight out that it isn’t true — she would disown me as a friend.

    The weird thing is how badly people want this thing that doesn’t even make them happy. It is so, so, so obvious to me that when my female friends have boyfriends, they are less happy. Markedly so. They smile less, they laugh less, they have more stress and more times that they’re upset and more problems and more constraints on their behavior and less happy stories and more complaints. The same is true of guys after the first year (new relationships do seem to make men very happy). But you see so many married people who clearly would be happier divorced and whose single biggest source of stress and unhappiness is their spouse.  Yet everyone still wants this thing!

    All I can think is that people have been completely sold on the idea, pushed by advertising and media, that if they aren’t in a relationship, they’re a loser. And not being rejected or a loser seems to be the one thing that people really care about the most. Because I’ve noticed that everyone seems perfectly fine not having a relationship IF they believe that they are the rejecter and the one choosing not to have a relationship, while turning down opportunities. But if they think they can’t have a relationship or that they’re the one who is rejected, it becomes an obsession and the thing they want most. The association between single and loser is just too strong in most people’s minds. And can be traced pretty directly to the advertising industry that started in the 20th century. People would rather feel successful and valued and worthy than happy. And it seems almost impossible to unwire your brain from associating certain things with “success” once you’ve been exposed enough times to the social messaging in a visual medium, which everyone in western society has been dosed with hundreds of times a day before they’re even old enough to read.

    I’m not one to talk because I can’t withstand the social pressure myself. By the time I was in my late twenties, I’d realized that if I looked back at my life and measured the happiest time periods purely by three basic measures: (1) how often I laughed really hard, (2) how smiley I was in photos, and (3) how rare it was for me to be upset or angry, that the brief times I was single blew away the times I was in a relationship, and it wasn’t even close. Whenever I’ve been single I’ve been pretty much happy and having fun every day, with maybe one bad day a month. When I’m in a relationship the upset/angry days go up to 3 or 4 days a month — that’s quadruple the active unpleasant emotions! And the hard laughter generally goes down (though how much depends on the guy’s sense of humor) because I always have friends I laugh with a lot, and if I’m in a relationship I spend less time with them. When I hang out with friends it is almost guaranteed that I will laugh really, really hard at least once, whereas in a relationship I might go months without a genuine bout of hard laughter. So not only does single = more happiness, but the longer and more serious the relationship, the worse things become on these measures. And I KNOW this is true for me, and yet even I can’t resist the social pressure. It’s just too damn exhausting fighting social norms and trying not to be misunderstood…eventually I just give in.

    I think one interesting study would be to ask highly sexually attractive people how often they think others cheat, or would if they could. And then ask regular looking or ugly people. My hypothesis is that the former category would make a much higher average guess of the percentage of cheaters. Because they’re perfectly aware of how many people would cheat with them, and get direct or indirect offers all the time. Whereas everyone else might be able to walk around without really even being aware of this aspect of the world.

  45. @Krypokate

     

    It is true, there needs to be opportunity for cheating(this does not include paying for hookers).  It’s easy for some disgusting slob to exclaim how faithful he or she has been when no one wants to fuck them anyway.  High value people have plenty of opportunity so eventually you take advantage.  I find it amusing that good looking celebrities and athletes get monogamously married.  You know few of them are truly monogamous, we just hear about the ones that get busted publicly.   My guess is many have discreet open marriages or just turn the other way like Maria Shriver, Hillary Clinton, etc… at least until it comes out.  The it’s more about them being embarrassed than surprised.

  46. Kate, would you agree with the following generalization:
    1. Women have multiple specific requirements about what their man should be like, which they don’t really communicate;
    2. But they don’t want to put the effort and bend the man into the shape. If they do anyway and the man yields, they will come to despise him for this beta behavior.

    So she sees a man and tries to make him her partner, thinking he’s just right in some regards and will change in others. But then she finds out he’s not that perfect, he makes this weird sound, he makes inappropriate jokes, he doesn’t reach the right spots during sex etc, and of course he won’t change. Hence lack of fulfillment, and resentment, and cheating. And the quest for Just Right (Without Her Effort) continues. If she found the unicorn man that would fit all of her requirements (which also change over time), then probably she’d be happy and she wouldn’t cheat, but of course that doesn’t happen.

    Or am I oversimplifying, or overall wrong?

  47. I’m in my first open relationship. I’m in my 40s. She’s in her early 20s. I’ve been with other people since we’ve been together. Up until a few weeks ago she had only had 1, one night stand. I recently went on a 4 week trip to Asia and of course hooked up several times. She also hooked up a few times (all 1 night stands).

    We are still completely bonded to each other but I am having a hard time dealing with my slut shaming social programming. Even though, I hooked up way more than her, my emotions are telling me that her hooking up is messed up. Logically I don’t see it as a problem. Fortunately, I haven’t said anything to her that messes up our relationship and our communication and honesty have been exceptional. Still, I am having a tough time dealing with my own emotions regarding my (open) girlfriend sleeping with other guys. Does anyone have some advise for how to deal with this?

    Excuse me if this is slightly off topic.

  48. Hey Kate, welcome back! I’m sure I speak for almost everyone when I say that you should post here more. You kinda disappeared on us for a while.

    Anyway, as is usually the case, what you’re saying is pretty much exactly right. The funny thing is though that even when I was an unattractive beta, I was never really too much in denial about the amount of cheating that was going on.

    I’ve been in the “secret society” since I was 12 – that is to say, even though I was an unattractive virgin dork, I presented myself as completely nonjudgmental and very pro-female (and male) sexual liberation. For this reason, even though no girl wanted to fuck me, every girl trusted me! Ever since age 12 or 13, girls treated me as if I were a gay friend, telling me wild stories that their boyfriends and lovers never found out.

    One girl (who became my second girlfriend at the age of 15, and the first who I cheated on) told me how she lost her virginity to her then boyfriend at age 12, but was nervous, so her best female friend (also 12) offered to have sex with her own boyfriend in the same bed at the same time, and if she cries or is nervous or whatever, she can just hold her friend’s hand and it will be okay. Her first experience was pretty beautiful, with her best friend and her own boyfriend in the same bed (although they never partner switched, so it can’t be called a foursome).

    Another girl (this one in 7th grade) who I never fucked told me about how she’s cheating on her boyfriend (whom she lost her virginity to) with his sister and how she’d like a threesome with them both, but he would be disgusted with sharing her with his own sister (it never happened).

    In 8th grade (I was 14 and still a virgin dork, albeit a nonjudgmental one), two of my male friends told me how they had a foursome with each other’s girlfriends and partner switched on the same bed.

    Sophomore year – my girlfriend’s 13 year old sister told me about how she’s screwing her math teacher for good grades, how she is the one who seduced him, and how happy she is that she’s getting an A in her 7th grade class.

    So no, your story about your friend banging the mail man in his mail truck at the church parking lot, does not sound like you’re lying to us, lol. These are stories whose truth red pill people take for granted, especially when they have lived these stories firsthand and been inundated with them since fucking 6th grade!

    With that being said though, I can see why so many blue pill people dismiss these realities as lying garbage or “the stuff of porn.” Their entire identity depends on us being liars, even as they do these things themselves, thinking that they are the only ones!

    But it’s getting harder and harder for me to look down on them because, remember, I have always known – since age 12 – that all these things are true, and yet, I STILL believed in monogamy for the longest time (until age 27 when my last mono girl cheated on me), even while I was cheating on my girls and my girls were cheating on me. So imagine if I believed in monogamy AND was NOT privy to all this knowledge ever since puberty! Holy shit, I shudder to think how much of a blue pill sheep I’d still be.

    I mean, at least I’d be cheating and so would my women, but all that lying and hiding would have made my hair turn grey by now, lol! The societal programming is MASSIVE! I snapped out of it due to a combination of knowing what really goes on behind the scenes – due to sincerely presenting myself as “pro-slut” and nonjudgmental since age 12 – and my last mono girlfriend cheating on me and trying unsuccessfully to pass off a baby as mine!

    But man, it was a hell of ride before I reached enlightenment, and if I were some slut shaming tradcon, I’d have no hope of ever finding out the truth and would be still cheating and living in denial to this very day. So sad. But inspiring too, I hope.

     

     

  49. I have found it best to avoid getting into arguments with your spouse about whether or not something they did was considered cheating. Since there are varying definitions of cheating, I have come to the conclusion that couples would be wise to clearly define their personal boundaries with each other, and then decide whether or not they agree and continue the relationships based on those rules. I have specifics for what I would consider inappropriate and if those lines were crossed, it would be a case for reconsidering the relationship, with consequences depending on the violation. For me, those are including but not limited to sexual contact.

    I also have principles such as, if you are interacting with another woman in a way that you feel you need to hide from me, then you probably shouldn’t be doing it – or if you are interacting with another woman in a way that you would be upset if I were doing the same with another man, then it’s probably inappropriate.

     

  50. Some proper psychos on here.

    Care to elaborate with an actual argument?

    Always good for a laugh,

    Provide an argument while laughing please.

    and perhaps a few arrests.

    On what charge?

  51. Have you actually *read* the comments on this site?

    The borderline criminal rantings of a load of illiterate narcissists with a disturbingly skewed view of reality and most likely some severe emotional problems.

    LOL BD I FUKD THIS GIRL WHO WAS SUM BITCH LOLZ

    etc

  52. Have you actually *read* the comments on this site?

    Yes. I also write my own.

    The borderline criminal rantings

    Again, you’re saying that someone here has broken the law. If you were a police officer, what would you charge them with? How are we “borderline criminal?” If you’re going to make such a serious legal accusation, you should probably back it up with an explanation.

    What should we be charged with? What law did we break?

    of a load of illiterate

    Who here is illiterate? Everyone here can read and write properly. Another false accusation on your part.

    No but seriously, explain the first one – the one about us breaking the law. Which law?

    with a disturbingly skewed view of reality and most likely some severe emotional problems.

    These are vague generalities that mean exactly nothing. Not specific arguments

    LOL BD I FUKD THIS GIRL WHO WAS SUM BITCH LOLZ

    When did anyone here ever talk like that?

  53. @Captain:

    I’m in my first open relationship. I’m in my 40s. She’s in her early 20s. I’ve been with other people since we’ve been together. Up until a few weeks ago she had only had 1, one night stand. I recently went on a 4 week trip to Asia and of course hooked up several times. She also hooked up a few times (all 1 night stands).

    We are still completely bonded to each other but I am having a hard time dealing with my slut shaming social programming. Even though, I hooked up way more than her, my emotions are telling me that her hooking up is messed up. Logically I don’t see it as a problem. Fortunately, I haven’t said anything to her that messes up our relationship and our communication and honesty have been exceptional. Still, I am having a tough time dealing with my own emotions regarding my (open) girlfriend sleeping with other guys. Does anyone have some advise for how to deal with this?

    I’m not sure what advice we can give you, since you admitted that you know that you are being completely illogical. If the two of you are as emotionally bonded as you say you are, what exactly makes you so uncomfortable about her sleeping with other men? Especially Asian/foreign men while on vacation whom you know she will never see again!

    Does it perhaps have something to do with the age difference? You said you’re in your 40s while she is in her early 20s. Were the men whom she slept with also in their 20s like her? Is that what made you feel insecure? Or an inadequate old man by comparison?

    In any case, this is why BD and myself (and others) recommend the gradual upgrading of women:

    First, she must start as a fuck buddy (nothing but casual sex). Next, you upgrade her (after a few months) to friend with benefits. During all this time, you’re both sleeping with other people. Then, after a few more months, you upgrade her again to MLTR.

    Now, the MLTR stage is the most important. You now have romantic feelings for her way beyond friendship. You are now dating her and she is dating you. You may even be falling in love. But during the MLTR stage, you may still sleep with AND DATE AND HAVE STRONG FEELINGS FOR others as well. You must train yourself to be okay with it.

    Then when you’re okay with that and have gotten used to her, not just fucking other guys, but being very emotional and romantic with other guys too (for about a year), you then – and only then – upgrade her to a serious open girlfriend (OLTR). In an OLTR, she is now emotionally exclusive with you and she’s allowed to have nothing but casual sex with secondaries (FWBs) and tertiaries (FBs and ONSs), just like you!

    Remember: An OLTR is a walk in the park compared to an MLTR. If you’ve actually survived, and passed through, the emotional fire of the MLTR, then you already trust her and you know each other’s boundaries. So an OLTR – where you’re allowed to have only casual sex with others – becomes way easier than an MLTR. But that’s why the MLTR comes first – so you can pass through the fire and emotional turbulence of jealousy together before you settle on a serious emotionally exclusive relationship with casual sex on the side only, which is the calm after the MLTR storm!

    So if you’re telling us that your girlfriend having even casual sex with other men makes you uncomfortable, that tells me that you haven’t progressed her through the FB, FWB, and MLTR stages before settling on the OLTR stage. You fucked up the chronology and are now paying for it with your uncomfortable emotions.

    Barring downgrading her to MLTR for a while, my only advice is get over it. Your slut shaming is irrational (especially on vacation when she will never see these guys again). Realize your emotions are the result of programming and just tell them to shut up!

     

     

  54. @Anon:

    Jack, what has been your experience regarding STDs?

    I’ve personally never contracted an STD myself. I get tested semi-regularly and I have had regular unprotected sex with women who have herpes (between outbreaks) without the slightest problem. I also had protected sex with a woman with genital warts. Also, no problem.

    STDs are a joke man, unless you’re completely reckless.

    Let me break them down into three categories – HIV, bacterial ones, and viral ones:

    1. HIV: HIV does NOT exist if you satisfy these 4 conditions:

    A. You’re a heterosexual man, heterosexual woman, bisexual woman, or lesbian.

    B. You don’t do drugs or share needles.

    C. You don’t fuck prostitutes.

    D. You don’t fuck anyone who breaks the above three rules.

    Again, if you satisfy the above 4 conditions, HIV/AIDS does not exist in your world. The politically correct horseshit about how “HIV does not discriminate between gay and straight” and “all are equally at risk” is just that – politically correct horseshit designed to make the alphabet community feel better!

    There is no HIV as far as I’m concerned and as far as you should be concerned.

    2. Bacterial STDs: Who cares about these? If you get one, just go to the doctor. He’ll prescribe you some antibiotics that you’ll have to take for 12 days and….poof….you’re cured! Next!

    3. Viral STDs: These are the only ones which are incurable and permanent (but not life threatening). They do exist, but condoms prevent them from being spread to you. Just be responsible.

    Now let’s talk about herpes. This is the only viral STD that can be spread even with a condom on because it can infect the ankles and legs even (and other parts that the condom doesn’t cover). But here’s the thing:

    The likelihood of a woman giving you herpes is high only if she is going through an outbreak. And if she is, you’ll see it on her genital region and won’t have sex with her. Now, if she’s between outbreaks, the chances of you catching it are slim if you use a condom. Even better, if she is on her herpes medication that permanently prevents future outbreaks, your chances of getting it from her are zero, even without a condom!

    I had a friend with benefits sometime ago who had herpes. She took her medication everyday and the last time she had an outbreak was six years ago. She also had an IUD inside her so I couldn’t get her pregnant. I never wore a condom with her. I must have cum inside her thousands of times and I never got herpes from her!

    So relax man! As long as you’re not reckless, STDs are mostly a paper tiger! HIV doesn’t exist for all practical purposes, the bacterial ones are curable in 12 days or less, and the viral ones simply require a condom to prevent their spread or herpes medication to lead a normal life!

    Again, I’ve never gotten an STD (and yes, I get tested). And the poly scene (especially the swingers community that my girlfriend is a part of) is anal (no pun intended) about getting tested.

    One of my girlfriend’s friends whom I had sex with told me straight up that she has genital warts that her doctor keeps lasering off. I used a condom with her, no problem. After a few months, she told me that she no longer gets any outbreaks, despite not being on any meds.

    My girlfriend had chlamydia one time, but cured it with meds. And I’m sure I fucked lots of women with herpes who never told me they had it, as my girlfriend hinted to me more than once when I banged most of her social circle.

    It’s all good. Just don’t be too reckless, use a condom when necessary, and you’ll be fine. STDs are not a big deal. And even if you do catch a viral (incurable) one like herpes, you’ll easily be able to lead a normal sex life. Almost everyone has oral herpes anyway (if you kissed more than five women on the mouth you definitely have it), but you’re not likely to ever know that you have it or experience any symptoms!

    Definitely be safe, but realize that STDs, while real, are mostly media propaganda designed to keep you a monogamous slave (and to make the alphabet people feel included)!

     

  55. @Anon

    :

    If she found the unicorn man that would fit all of her requirements (which also change over time), then probably she’d be happy and she wouldn’t cheat

    This part is false. She would still cheat (while asking herself what is wrong with her). Polyamory is in her nature, just like in men’s nature. Not only can a boyfriend never be able to keep up with a mono woman’s constantly shifting and changing requirements, but even if he could, she’d cheat on him for being too perfect, and therefore, boring.

    You can never stop cheating no matter what, except by embracing poly/open relationships.

    @Crabrangoon:

    I find it amusing that good looking celebrities and athletes get monogamously married.  You know few of them are truly monogamous, we just hear about the ones that get busted publicly.   My guess is many have discreet open marriages or just turn the other way like Maria Shriver, Hillary Clinton, etc… at least until it comes out.  The it’s more about them being embarrassed than surprised.

    Correct! None of these people are in monogamous relationships. That’s just for show. In truth, they are in discreet open relationships while pretending to be monogamous for the public. You should watch Britney Speers’ music video “If You Seek Amy.” It pretty much admits to the entire secret society.

    “All the boys and all the girls are looking to F-U-C-K. me.”

    Here you go (watch carefully to the very end, especially when she leaves the house and resumes her blue pill persona):

    Can’t you see what I see?

    Now, as for politicians, that’s even more obvious! All of them are in discreet poly arrangements and must fake outrage whenever one of them fails to be discrete and is caught supposedly “cheating.”

    It is understood that politicians have sex with ambassadors and foreign diplomats for the purposes of social lubrication and to smooth over political deals. I heard that Condoleezza Rice was sad that one ambassador didn’t want to fuck her, as is standard procedure during international negotiations. Publicly, she is a conservative and happily married woman.

    In Europe, they are more open about this and essentially admit that every politician/rich person/person of influence is poly.

    The only ones in denial who think there is such a thing as monogamy, and therefore, cheating are average blue pill schlubs, tradcons, sex-negative feminists, SJWs, and Muslims. Everyone else is clued in (more or less).

  56. @BlindIo:

    Read Glubb first, then we can continue.

    Dude, you’re all about slut shaming, promoting female virginity and “purity,” punishing them for enjoying sex, hating them for making our lifestyle possible, chaining them to the stove, and turning them into nothing but baby makers.

    This blog is about the exact opposite. It promotes happiness and sexual liberation.

    So why are you here? Why would any tradcon be attracted to the PUA community or seduction blogs when seduction, according to you, is evil, and women who are seduced and love it, according to you, are “disgusting, immoral whores?” Wouldn’t you be happier on a church blog?

    Why are you interested in game if you think the women who make the game possible are “sluts” and should be pure virgins instead? Your presence here makes no sense.

    r and K is very simple. r’s put themselves before the group. K’s put the group before themselves.

    Yes. Us Rs believe that making ourselves happy first will trickle down to the rest of society. Happiness is contagious. As a happy person, you are in a better position to make others happy and help them. If you’re miserable, not so much. True societal happiness begins with the happiness of the individual. But you Ks are tribalistic collectivists, just like communists, except from the opposite side.

    The generation that lived through the war did not cheat in nearly the numbers you think. Peoples brains were literally wired differently back then. It’s everyone who came after who does it and think anything else is impossible.

    Back then, people were so sexually repressed that I would have considered it a living hell.

    r’s can’t understand K’s, because they lack the physical brain alterations that cause it.

    And vice versa.

    And even when they cheated, they often stayed together anyway unlike today. Because the kids matter more than the parents.

    The reason they don’t stay together now after cheating is because they believe cheating is wrong and, at the same time, refuse to sacrifice their happiness for the kids. So they have two choices:

    1. Sacrifice themselves for the kids (become K); or:

    2. Stop thinking that cheating is wrong. Become open/poly and raise the kids in that arrangement (become R).

    All the problems of society that you are concerned about are the result of R values colliding with K. Take out the R and society will be stable (albeit repressed). Take out the K and society will be stable and happy!

    There’s no reason to break up families if sleeping with others isn’t considered an offense. Families are broken up because of K puritanism colliding with R values.

    I say we take out the K.

     

  57. Small r, jack. And no, not vice versa. We all start as r’s as kids, and depending on the environment and life experiences slide towards the K side to varying degrees.

    As for this part,
    All the problems of society that you are concerned about are the result of R values colliding with K. Take out the R and society will be stable (albeit repressed). Take out the K and society will be stable and happy!

    This is why you need to read Glubb before we can have a meaningful discussion about this. And that is why you will not do it. You fear what you might learn in doing so.

  58. Who is Glubb and what work of this author are you referring to? What’s its central argument? I’m getting a hunch that the argument is about what’s good for the society, which is kind of offtopic here. I don’t care about the society, the society doesn’t care about the society, and you shouldn’t, too.

  59. I don’t care about the society, the society doesn’t care about the society, and you shouldn’t, too.

    That.

  60. @Jack Outside the Box

    An attractive/good-game guy “fucking” attractive girls and a spectrum of unattractive/attractive/fat/skinny/good-game/ no-game guys widely “relationshiping” attractive girls can be (reasonably) regard as separate phenomena.

  61. “If your wife or girlfriend is having sex with other men and you are not having sex with other women, you’re pretty much a “monogamous” cuckold. And a beta too.”

     

    I don’t see how this is necessarily true. If you’re OK with her having sex with other men in a normal open relationship, but you just happen to be too lazy or don’t have the desire to sleep with other girls, then how is that beta/cuckoldry? If a guy decides he’s only going to fuck one girl for the rest of his life and succeeds, and has no “control” issues that the “Alpha 1.o” types have, then isn’t that the essence of an Alpha 2.0? A man who literally does exactly what he wants (fuck only his wife in this case) and does not care about shit that goes on outside of this and doesn’t try to control every situation?

  62. If he succeeds, that’s great, for sure. But what are the odds of a lazy monogamous guy succeeding in keeping that girl around forever?

  63. If you’re OK with her having sex with other men in a normal open relationship, but you just happen to be too lazy or don’t have the desire to sleep with other girls, then how is that beta/cuckoldry?

    Because you’re forgetting that an Alpha 2.0 is still an Alpha Male. Alpha Males aren’t “too lazy” to have sex with hot chicks, nor do they “not have the desire.”

    You’re describing a beta, not an Alpha.

  64. HERPES RED PILL

    @Jack Outside the Box: Not a funny joke really. In the United States, about one out of every six people aged 14 to 49 years have genital herpes. I’ve just been diagnosed with it (HSV2) after my first outbreak. It is quite a blow to a planned lifetime of travel and fucking (‘luckily’ I am already over 40). I can now look forward to regular sores at the base of my penis, no doubt just hours before finally being naked with a new or recent hard-earned partner.  (Explain that to your FBs and ONSs, especially the younger ones, in different world languages, or else live with your conscience). Plus I am SUPER infectious right now at the start of it, though it will tone down exponentially. It’s going to be an interesting year of meditation and solitude for me while I radically change my lifeplans.

    Probably, though will never be sure, happened after getting a tiny cut shaving my pubic hair outside of the condom area (stupidly with a razor, and even more stupidly ignoring it while continuing to have multiple partners). By the way, many women and men shave, which takes away nature’s barrier and increases microcuts. A “VERY DANGEROUS” practice they told me at the clinic!

    Have you actually been tested for Herpes? Are you an unwitting carrier? Did you know it increases manyfold the risk of getting and giving just about all other STIs, especially HIV? This is why I’ve started calling it ‘baby HIV’. Read up on it folks.

    “The likelihood of a woman giving you herpes is high only if she is going through an outbreak. And if she is, you’ll see it on her genital region and won’t have sex with her. Now, if she’s between outbreaks, the chances of you catching it are slim if you use a condom. Even better, if she is on her herpes medication that permanently prevents future outbreaks, your chances of getting it from her are zero, even without a condom!”

    Not true. It’s also high during viral shedding (which happens on many days in between outbreaks).

    Sure you’ll see it? Every time? Good luck looking closely at every square inch of your partner’s ‘boxer shorts area’, including every single fold and flap, anus included, every single time, with every single partner.

    “Permanently prevents” erm…you mean suppresses, and only if the partner takes it multiple times every day for life.

    NOT zero dude. Maybe only 4-8% chance per year. But NOT zero.

    Sure, as a male outbreaker, I am probably only in the 2%, so BD might suggest you keep calm and carry on. But women are twice as likely to suffer, and have worse symptoms, so the risk is definitely considerable. The answer? Get tested, disclose whenever possible (haven’t tried that little red pill yet), and reduce friction for life. Which for me means having as little sex as I can get away with for my happiness, rather than as much as possible. Huge change. Not happy.

  65. HERPES REDPILL II

    Ok 5 months later…I have calmed down considerably. Part of the reason doctors avoid diagnosing or testing for herpes is because the psychological risk is way higher than the physical risk. So they’d rather people remained blissfully ignorant, which is ethical short-termism and sucks more for those who are diagnosed.

    I am getting slowly used to herpes, using meditation, thankfulness, and positive thinking. Reducing total yearly thrust numbers and skin contact hasn’t been such a bad thing for my life or genitals. I am developing other stuff in my life and have more time and money. I have also gone from quantity to quality of partners. I have also become healthier and less stressed in life, because it really helps with the disease and happiness about it.

    But sure, sometimes it’s a big handicap. You’re going to lose people. Had an outbreak the other day and so had to cancel 2 dates for the weekend with an excuse of being busy (I became a flaker). I probably missed a ONS opportunity too.

    I am estimating it’s costing me 20% more in time and money and missed opportunities. I need to keep thinking in those terms. It’s just another brick in my packpack. You can get used to ANYTHING.

    I have also disclosed to one expendable FB as an experiment, but she was too dumb to really get it, and I never saw her again. But it was predictable, and it was more of a practice run for ‘the conversation’. It felt good to share and try and educate, and I can see how it can bring people closer.

    I have calculated that with condoms and pills, I have a 2-4% chance of transmitting per year, so using BD’s 2% rule I have decided for now to only disclose to someone if I see them regularly for over 6 months. Unless of course I can’t possibly hide it, they ask, or would lose them by acting too weird or flaking a lot. Abundance mentality is crucial here. You cannot fear losing the woman, or what people might think.

    As for ethics, I have to weigh up my particular sex needs in order to be the very best and happiest man I can, with the risk of trashing a very young woman’s sex and social life. There is a balance to be struck, and my mission is to find it.

     

  66. Having multiple sex partners and not practice safe sex is like playing Russian Roulette I got a dose of the clap from getting a head job I was told you cant get STD from oral sex Wake call for me .!! Cheers

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