Why on earth would you possibly get married? What is the point? I’m getting this question a lot as my audience grows. A lot of guys are confused — they understand non-monogamous dating, location independent income, and Five Flags, but they don’t understand getting married. (I have an entire book about this — The Ultimate Open Marriage Manual.)

“Caleb, why are you telling men to get married???”

I’m not. Let’s discuss.

Living Single

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: If you are under the age of 35, you should not get married nor should you even move in with a woman. You should not live with a woman in a romantic context if you’re under the age of 35, period. If you do, you are a goddamn moron! (You can live with roommates if you need to; that’s different.) If you live in the Western World in the modern era, that is virtually guaranteed to blow up in your face. When you are a younger man, you need to focus on your goals and your life. You need to build your empire, your infrastructure, and your life in your twenties and thirties. When you’re older, then we can discuss options.

This applies to OLTR marriage, traditional monogamous marriage, and living with a girlfriend in an open or monogamous relationship. Do not live with a woman if you are under the age of 35. You are insane if you do. This is not 1952 for fuck’s sake. You will cause damage to your life that could take as long as 20 years to repair.

As for you men over the age of 35, this is where things change a little… maybe. Here’s the deal, and I know this for a fact: Most men — including most men in the Manosphere, in the red pill world, in the MRA world, the pickup artist world, and even the Alpha 2.0 world — once they get over the age of 35 (or certainly over the age of 40), they will eventually want to settle down with one woman in some form or fashion. That could mean traditional monogamous marriage (although I hope not; then you’re a moron again), it could mean moving in with a woman, or it might mean an OLTR marriage or something similar. Upwards of 80% of men will eventually want this.

We could argue about whether or not that’s a good idea, or how some men should and some shouldn’t. Those are interesting conversations, but none of it changes the fact that this will happen. I don’t care how much of a badass you think you are or how independent you are. When you’re a young man, you don’t know what the fuck you’re going to do 20 or 30 years from now.

The OLTR Marriage Model

I could sit here and say, “OK guys, NEVER get married and never move in with a woman for the rest of your life.” The problem is that 90% of the audience over the age of 40 would tune that out. Like it or not, men over 40 like to settle down. So for me to say that would be a complete waste of time, and no one would follow that advice.

What I am forced to say instead is, “Alright dumbass, if you really want to do this, here is the least bad way to do it: OLTR marriage.” Most men are much more receptive to this than the idea of never settling down at all.

I’m going to summarize this for you: The OLTR marriage is the only appropriate and safe way for you to settle down with a woman in the 21st century in the Western world. This includes moving in with a woman even if you’re not married.

An OLTR marriage is just like a traditional monogamous marriage with two very key differences.

First, it’s an open marriage. You are allowed to have sex with any woman you want, whenever you want, without ever having to check with your wife. You are still sexually free even though you are married or living with a woman in a romantic context. The only thing you can’t do is date other women.

In Alpha 2.0 parlance, we have FB, MLTR, and OLTR. OLTR is your girlfriend or wife. FBs are women you’re hooking up with, and MLTRs are women you’re dating. So in an OLTR marriage, you can’t date other women, but you can hook up with them all you want. You don’t have your balls chopped off by a woman, and you don’t have to live a double life and live like a thief in the night by cheating on her. You’re still an Alpha Male, and you’re still free.

The second difference is the financial barrier. That means you have your finances and she has hers, and there are legal and logistical barriers separating the two. So if you get divorced — and there is roughly a 76% divorce rate today — you’re protected financially. Under the OLTR marriage model, you only get married in areas or provinces where this financial barrier is allowable and enforceable.

This is what I have — an OLTR marriage where I have sex with my FBs on a regular basis, and if I ever get divorced from Pink Firefly (and of course I hope I don’t), I don’t lose a penny. That is the only safe, rational, and valid way to co-habit a woman in the modern era.

Final Question

Why even do this? Why would a man want to get married at all even under an OLTR Marriage and even if he’s well over 35?

Typically, the people asking this question are either under age 35 or over 35 and just went through a horrible divorce.

When you’re under 35, you don’t know what you want in the long term, so of course, it’s valid to wonder why you’d ever get married. Wait 10 or 20 or 30 years and you’ll find out; it’s just how people are (with very rare exceptions which yes, do exist, but are rare). Men over age 35 who have recently experienced a horrible divorce go through a period during which they are irrationally psychotic about the notion of ever getting married again. That’s why you see so many men swearing they’ll never do it, and five years later, they do. In either case, you are not a man who is thinking rationally. Just wait and the answer will come.

If you’re not in these categories and you’re asking this question, I can give you my answer: because it makes me happier.

It might surprise you to hear this, but I have always been a pair-bonding type guy. Over the last 13 years, I have dated multiple women at all times, and in my case, there was always one girl in that group who I connected with on a level that didn’t exist with the others. This came about very naturally. Sometimes it was an OLTR and sometimes it was a high-end MLTR. But I knew that as I got older, I would eventually want to settle down in an OLTR marriage. As long as I could have sex with other women and my hard-earned money wasn’t at risk, I was happy to do that.

Way back in in 2012, eight friggin’ years ago and several years before I even met Pink Firefly, I wrote an article here called How Open Marriage Works. I said at the time that eventually, I would want this for myself. And guess what — today, I have pretty much exactly the marriage I described back then. (As usual, I always do what I say I will do. It just that often I do it late.)

You have to know these things about yourself. You have to know why you want to be with a woman.

It is only valid to settle down with a woman when you want it, but don’t need it. Beta males and many Alpha Male 1.0s settle down with a woman because they need to or because they’re terrified she might leave. If you need to marry a woman, you’re doing this wrong. I didn’t need to get married and I still don’t. I wanted to.

The marriage I have with Pink Firefly makes me very happy; it’s one of the biggest sources of happiness in my life, and that’s saying a lot, because I have a really happy life.

But I did it at the correct time — well over the age of 35 and after I’d already done everything else I wanted. And I didn’t do it because I needed it, I did it because I wanted it.

50 Comments on “Why Get Married?

  1. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:If you are under the age of 35, you should not get married nor should you even move in with a woman.

    Given the fact that Western men are getting increasingly childlike, Western women are becoming increasingly masculine and dominant, and technology is increasingly allowing men to look and feel younger as well as allow people to have casual sexual relationships, this don’t move in if you are under 35 rule will probably increase to under 40, then under 45 as the decades progress. In the far future when we have things like sex robots the idea of moving in with a woman will probably vanish from society

    When you are a younger man, you need to focus on your goals and your life. You need to build your empire, your infrastructure, and your life in your twenties and thirties.

    As a guy in his mid 20s, I am trying to set up my financial empire so that I can make money and live life without having to work. I will have to give up certain things to make this work, but it must be done. And I will get what I am after. Money will set me free in ways I can’t imagine today.

  2. Given the fact that Western men are getting increasingly childlike, Western women are becoming increasingly masculine and dominant, and technology is increasingly allowing men to look and feel younger as well as allow people to have casual sexual relationships, this don’t move in if you are under 35 rule will probably increase to under 40, then under 45 as the decades progress.

    Correct.

    Soon it will be a cultural norm to have men in their 40s acting like 22 year-olds do now.

    Enjoy the decline!

  3. Hello Caleb

    What should I do when I have two girls where I have sex with but they know each other/are friends (I didn’t know this in advance). And they also know it from each other that they are both seeing me. Is that situation prone to unnecessary drama and should I just pick one to avoid drama? Because they are confronting me about it.

    Thank you

    Carlos

  4. What should I do when I have two girls where I have sex with but they know each other/are friends

    Off-topic.

  5. Another reason to enter into an OLTR marriage exactly like Blackdragon says is because it is financially beneficial to you. If you want to have children and attempt to raise them as best as can be done is yet the other reason. It is still a bad idea as he said above and I have always said. If the financial and maybe the children issue is not there then avoid any kind marriage altogether. Women are a financial and emotional drain and as the late great stand up comedian Patrice O’Neal asked,” If you women did not have a vagina, What would you do to get your man and what would you do to keep him?” They virtually had no other answer except to ejaculate men’s penises via other means. I have said that many more of us men including myself would never bother with women if we had no desire for them to ejaculate our penises. As a general rule women’s romantic and erotic love is by far more parasitic and less loving than a man’s. If you don’t believe that, then is a man more willing to lay down his life or get maimed, mutilated or humiliated for a woman or vice versa on average or as a general rule? Please don’t mention the exceptions and degrees. Jesus of Nazareth made an astute observation when he said that there is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for another. Remember that as a general rule men’s romantic love is worth more than women’s despite what our culture tells you. IT has always been this way but our current declining 1st world East Asian / Western culture is making a bad situation worse by convincing men that women’s love is worth more than men’s amongst doing other things to skew the sexual market place and hurt men and to a lesser extent women too.

  6. Mmmm…personally not for me! Sexual freedom, financial freedom is all a given and is awesome!! if you don’t have this figured will then pity you! For my 49 year old self it is now about the little things that come with marriage, co habitating, OLTR etc whatever you want to call it. Things like setting up a house, negotiating furniture, cupboard space, whats for dinner etc etc. I know as Alpha 2 you can always do it your way, though this still at times brings a degree of drama that I have zero tolerance for. Guess I am in the 10% who can not see any way that this can improve my life

  7. How does the “Marriage” Part make you more happy? You could still do everything you do now with her, without having that legal contract?
    Doesn’t that make stuff more complicated? Even with the prenup you have?
    So what exactly are the benefits for you here?

  8. For my 49 year old self it is now about the little things that come with marriage, co habitating, OLTR etc whatever you want to call it.

    Those little things are rarely a problem if you set up your OLTR Marriage correctly and as I describe in this book. For example,

    Things like setting up a house,

    Not a problem. You decide where to move and what house to get (she does not; she has some input but you make the decision, not her; if she hates that she can just leave you). Then she sets up her area of the house and you set up yours. Easy. No compromise, no drama.

    negotiating furniture

    No negotiating. See above. She has her furniture in her areas, you have your furniture in yours.

    cupboard space

    Never a problem. Have two separate kitchens like we have, as I’ve talked about before.

    whats for dinner

    You eat what you want and she eats what she wants. Pink Firefly and I almost never eat the same thing for dinner. Always eating the same thing as your live-in GF/wife is false Societal Programing and extremely stupid; you probably have a very different body than hers. (I weigh literally double Pink Firefly does, for example.)

    You’re coming at all of this from a Societal Programming / traditional standpoint. Don’t do that. I do not, which is why I have not encountered any of those things you’re talking about.

    How does the “Marriage” Part make you more happy?

    If you’re referring to the paperwork surrounding the marriage, it doesn’t. The co-habitaiton does.

    You could still do everything you do now with her, without having that legal contract?

    In most parts of the Western world you have to have some legal contracts when you co-habit with a woman to protect yourself (the Financial Barrier). It’s not optional (unless you’re stupid).

    So what exactly are the benefits for you here?

    For the paperwork? Rock-solid legal protection of my money.

    For the co-habitation? Always having someone to love and to hold whenever I want, never having that nagging feeling in the back of my mind that I might be missing out on something like that (valid only for men over age 35!!!), never having to worry about the logistics involved of having to seek those feelings outside of my home, stability of a relationship that survives my odd international travel schedule, pride in looking back on a long co-habiting relationship with virtually zero drama as compared to the typical co-habiting relationship, a project I find enjoyable.

  9. But you could have the  co-habitation without a full blown marriage right? The marriage adds some additional rights and obligations probably?
    Which you remove via a contract. But not having those in the first place might be simpler? By just having a co-habitation contract of course. Because living together might seem as marriage.

    That’s what confuses me. Why you choose the official marriage contract. Aren’t there other (simpler) options with similar outcome? Like living together (with a written contract), but without the official government marriage contract.

  10. But you could have the co-habitation without a full blown marriage right?

    Of course; that’s the best way to do it.

    Why you choose the official marriage contract.

    Where did I ever say I did that?

    As I’ve said many times, when I say “marriage” it means living full time with a woman in a romantic context. What paperwork you have signed or not signed and whether or not you’re monogamous is irrelevant to the fact you’re living the lifestyle of a married man. Therfore, by my definition, you are “married” if you live with her.

    In terms of why one would get legally married, the only reason I could think of an advantage would be that there are some odd jurisdictions where the Financial Barrier is actually more enforceable if you get legally married. But those regions are certainly not the norm.

  11. Hm ok. Then I understood it wrong.

    I though you mentioned couple of times that you recommend a prenup when people get married. And that means an official legal marriage right?
    Because otherwise it wouldn’t be called prenup?

    So you did NOT officially marry PF? Where you signed a contract with the state, she get’s your name, she get’s inheritance rights and you have to go the government for an official divorce in case you break up?
    So you signed a different contract? Like co-habitation contract which does NOT involve all those other (default marriage) obligations? Could you elaborate on the kind of contract you selected?
    Because you obviously checked all options and if you did NOT do an official marriage, then there must be a better way for a co-habitation. So please share what you figured out here.

    Thanks in advance.
    Dan

     

  12. I though you mentioned couple of times that you recommend a prenup when people get married.

    Only if it’s enforceable where you live (and it usually isn’t) and only if you get legally married. Otherwise you need an enforceable co-habitation agreement instead.

    And that means an official legal marriage right?
    Because otherwise it wouldn’t be called prenup?

    Correct.

    So you did NOT officially marry PF?

    I can’t be specific about what I signed or didn’t sign with her, for legal reasons, as I’ve stated several times before. We signed a lot of paperwork though in order to cover my ass, because I have assets.

  13. “never having that nagging feeling in the back of my mind that I might be missing out on something like that”… BD, now that you can compare your current marital bliss and look back to somewhere in the past 13 years before you met Pink Firefly, would you say your overall happiness levels have increased as a result of getting married? Also, what do you think of Rich Cooper’s interview with divorce law expert Jonathan C. Noble, Esq. in which the divorce lawyer concedes that there’s no good reason for men to marry (particularly for alpha males if you listen to his description at 1:02:55). https://youtu.be/By_hZ9zl1uc

  14. BD, now that you can compare your current marital bliss and look back to somewhere in the past 13 years before you met Pink Firefly, would you say your overall happiness levels have increased as a result of getting married?

    Yes, they have increased, but I’m talking about where my life is right now (almost 50 years old, accomplished all of my business goals, very high income, lived every sexual fantasy I’ve ever had, etc, etc), not my life overall. In other words, I would have been much less happy had I had lived with a woman 5, 10, or 15 years ago, for example.

    Also, what do you think of Rich Cooper’s interview with divorce law expert Jonathan C. Noble, Esq. in which the divorce lawyer concedes that there’s no good reason for men to marry

    He’s right of course. There is no good reason for a man to get legally married to a woman (barring very unusual/rare exceptions to the rule). Live with her if you’re over age 35 and ready, but there’s no need to legally her. (Again, unless something very strange is going on.)

  15. There is no good reason for a man to get legally married to a woman (barring very unusual/rare exceptions to the rule). Live with her if you’re over age 35 and ready, but there’s no need to legally her. (Again, unless something very strange is going on.)

    Emigrating to another country is usually made simpler by being legally married, to name a non-strange example.

  16. You eat what you want and she eats what she wants. Pink Firefly and I almost never eat the same thing for dinner. Always eating the same thing as your live-in GF/wife is false Societal Programing and extremely stupid; you probably have a very different body than hers. (I weigh literally double Pink Firefly does, for example.)

    The woman I lived with most recently really liked cooking and got hurt feelings when I didn’t want to eat the food she cooked. In the end, I found an acceptable compromise. We agreed to eat together at home once a week. So long as the food wasn’t heavy with carbs and sugar, I’d sit down and enjoy it with her. So instead of cooking for me on a daily basis, it was a special occasion. I was happy with that, I enjoyed it. I didn’t feel that agreeing to that involved any loss of prestige.

  17. Guys, if you have an OLTR or intend to be in an OM in the future, GET Caleb’s OM book. There are tons of info in there that you ain’t able to get anywhere else (unlike his other books, unless you spend tons of time researching about open marriage couples).

    I honestly recommend it, one of the best $70 I’ve spent in my life.

    @Caleb 2 questions:

    Who paid for your wedding, you, or PinkFirefly, or 50/50? Wedding and ring are costly, did you try to keep the cost as low as possible, or it’s something to be done the way she wants (Her Zone) in order to make your submissive wife satisfy her need for social conformity?
    What do you do in your shared time when you can’t leave your home due to COVID-19? Anything other than meals together, movie/Netflix together, and sex?  No wonder why the divorce rate shot up in China after the lockdown, couples just get bored.

  18. Traditional Monogamous Marriage, TM,  for those who are successful is the best way to raise children. I know that TMM doesn’t work so much anymore. OLTR may be second best and better than the alternatives including divorced TMM, but it is still bad and strikes me as selfish and wrong to attempt to raise children you know you can not do properly. I think OLTR works best without children. However, I know some people will insist on having children and OLTR might be second best and the only true alternative they have for having children as TMM is not an option or is a bad option for them. I think they should forgo having children but obviously they won’t listen to me.

    Good reasons for OLTR are financial as having MLTRs is financially, emotionally and time wise more draining. Bad reasons are that one is lest less emotionally and potentially financially  vulnerable with MLTRs should the OLTR end which it will. It is increasingly difficult to set up and maintain an OLTR in the West especially USA. Men start losing energy and become less tolerant of drama as they age as well as less tolerant of wasting time so that is why most want a TMM or OLTR rather than serial dating or MLTRs. Most men my age and older( I’m 52 and born in 1968) would not be happy enough with FBs, Friends with benefits. like me. Blackdragon is an obvious example of this.

  19. Traditional Monogamous Marriage, TM, for those who are successful is the best way to raise children.

    So how exactly does fooling around with FBs hurt the raising of the children? If the parents are known for skiing in their spare time, nobody bats an eye, but replace skiing with fucking FBs (which lowers the risk of traumatic injury and the risk of the family falling apart, both very problematic for child-rearing) and suddenly it’s torches and pitchforks.

    Good reasons for OLTR are financial as having MLTRs is financially, emotionally and time wise more draining. […] Most men my age and older (I’m 52 and born in 1968) would not be happy enough with FBs, Friends with benefits.

    If you actively want to upgrade your FBs to MLTRs because that adds something to your life that you value, you must be prepared to pay the cost, isn’t that logical?

  20. Comment deleted. Sonny, I’ve given you multiple warnings about bugging me about off-topic subjects. Last warning. One more time and you will be banned. One more complaint about this and you will be banned. Thanks.

  21. Traditional Monogamous Marriage, TM, for those who are successful is the best way to raise children.

    Not if its failure rate is over 76%. That means it’s a great way to fuck up your children.

    Please also show me your data that shows the father having sex with other women when the children have no idea he’s doing it is bad for the children.

  22. Who paid for your wedding, you, or PinkFirefly, or 50/50?

    She paid for about 60% of it, I paid for about 20%, our parents paid for the remaining 20%. I gave her a strict budgetary figure of what I would pay and no more, so all the extra crap (and there was a lot) she paid for herself.

    Wedding and ring are costly, did you try to keep the cost as low as possible, or it’s something to be done the way she wants (Her Zone) in order to make your submissive wife satisfy her need for social conformity?

    Her Zone is not relevant if I’m the one paying for it. I paid for her ring so I decided how much it was. Same deal as with the wedding; I gave her a specific budget on what I would spend on the ring and not one penny more.

    The ring I got her was literally one-fifth the cost of the ring she initially wanted.

    What do you do in your shared time when you can’t leave your home due to COVID-19?

    Everything is open where we live except for movie theaters so we go out whenever we want.

    Anything other than meals together, movie/Netflix together, and sex?

    It’s mostly that, yes. Though sometimes we just relax and talk or even play board games. I taught her how to play Stratego and she’s getting pretty good. 🙂

    No wonder why the divorce rate shot up in China after the lockdown, couples just get bored.

    Divorce rates are shooting up all over the non-Western world, even pre-Covid. Very soon the entire planet will have 50%+ divorce rates. (And people will still keep getting TMM married because they’re morons about this.)

  23. Of course marriage is to be avoided.  But this is the wrong focus.  Weak men will get married or move in with a woman and essentially be her servant.  The right focus is on becoming self confident enough to handle them.  This means setting boundaries and/or breaking up with them when they give you drama and ultimatums.

    You have to develop that outcome independence.  That starts with getting in your best shape so you can attract more and better women.  They are going to use emotional blackmail and other tricks they’ve learned since childhood.  You have to have a good social network so you can smile and calmly tell her to stop it or get lost.

     

  24. @BD

    Side note, Stratego rules and I no joke just mentioned it to one of my MLTR‘s the other day as a new game to learn.

  25. @ Blackdragon

    I said nothing about adultry damaging the raising of children. If the children do not know that their parents are committing adultry then it does not perceptually exist for them and it is virtually like it not actually existing. if the children do find out that their parents are committing adultry, then the children may think that the parents relationship will end at least partly due to societal programming and partly due to obsolete biological wiring or even maybe present day functional biological wiring.. IT is also getting more difficult to hide adultry and cheating as you once said in one of your previous articles, and I agreed with that statement by you. I happen to think that except in dire circumstances seperation, divorce and breaking up marriages and live in relationships for raising children is bad. Plenty of statistics areout there saying this and you can google it if you like. Eighty percent of the men in American prisons are sons of single either divorced or baby momma drama is a correaltional statistic is one example and there are others.

    I thought I was clear above. It should have worked. I will accept responsibility and attempt to be more  clear here if you accept responsibility to carefully read what I write and wrote. Traditional Monogamous Marriage is the best way to raise children when it works. I accept that TMM does not always work in that it does not last until the last child is eighteen and an adult or even better lifelong until one spouse or the other dies. Live in relationships can be almost as good as long as the partners stay together. OLTR is second best. as there is always a chance of getting caught cheating or adultry, but that is not the worst aspect of it. It assumes the relationship will end often before the children are adults. the breakup of relationships hurt the children more than adultry and cheating do in my opinion. Failed TMM and OLTRs are the worst for the children especially if the spouses openly hate eachother and will not support eachother.

  26. @ Psuedonymous User

    Read my comments above to Blackdragon. Not all men want to pay the price to upgrade the relationship. Although I prefer successful MLTR relationships to successful FB relationships , I also would be nearly as happy with only FBs. I would definitely prefer unsuccessful FBs to unsuccessful MLTR relationships because unsuccessful MLTR relationships are more emotionally damaging for nearly everyone. IT follows then that unsuccessful OLTRs are the worst relationships to be in my opinion.

  27. Doclove, basically, your point is that the biggest threat to child raising is parents breaking up, right? I agree with that. What I disagree with is the link between nonmonogamy and breakups. I’m firmly of the opinion that it’s the other way round for several reasons:

    A nonmonogamous man will have had a greater number of meaningful relationships before choosing to upgrade one of them to OLTR than a monogamous man because those relationships will run concurrently. He will have a larger pool of women to choose one suitable to be the mother of his children.
    The OLTR structure is less conducive to breakups to begin with, both because of the man’s greater experience (see item 1) and because of the structure itself.
    Perhaps the greatest advantage of them all, which applies to childless men as well. Nonmonogamous relationships just don’t have the heart-wrenching breakups that monogamous couples cause all the time. The likelihood is much greater that if the breakup does happen, it will be amicable and the impact on the children will be minimized.

  28. Traditional Monogamous Marriage is the best way to raise children when it works.

    But it doesn’t work, so you’re speaking in terms of fantasy and hope rather than reality. But okay, even if it did work (which it doesn’t), you then turn around and say:

    If the children do not know that their parents are committing adultry then it does not perceptually exist for them and it is virtually like it not actually existing.

    Which directly contradicts your point about TMM being better than OLTR.

    But it looks like we agree. As long as you don’t tell your kids you’re fucking other women in your OLTR Marriage, which is exactly what I recommend, you’re saying OLTR Marriage is just as good as TMM in terms of raising kids. I agree. (Therefore it’s stupid to take the risk of TMM when OLTR is just as good (or better) as long as you don’t tell your kids.)

  29. Thanks for enlightening me doclove. I’m beginning to realize why most men will never be happy. You guys aren’t selfish enough to be happy.

    You guys coddle children too much and put them before your own needs. Or maybe that’s how you rationalize being weak.

    Children have to be have monogamous partners. Children need parents to be romantically involved. Children need parents to live together. Children need parents to stay together forever or at least until youngest 18 or done with college.

    Didn’t mention, but assuming: children need to live in the suburbs; children need to live in a good school district; children need to receive birthday and Christmas presents.

    How did we go from we need to have kids to help out with the farm, to we need to be slaves to our kids?

    You need to read BD’s post on our responsibilities to our kids. There’s only two: love them unconditionally and support them. And show them actions have consequences. I think he says cause and effect iirc.

  30. @ Blackdragon

    For the 3rd time in this thread, I agree that TMM percentage which will be successful has decreased a lot and probably will decrease some some. Is that clear enough for you? However, you have stated many times that about 15% of the population make it work. that is not the majority but it is not your 2% or less rule either. I don’t think the majority of people will be able to successfully be able or even genuinely try to do your system either and you said the same thing yourself and that you don’t care as you are here to save a minority of men and relationships as it is the best that you can do. I agree. with the previous sentence. The majority of people will fail at TMM now and in the foreseeable future and fail at OLTR if not now but in the future in my opinion. It is just that you are right that OLTR leaves men less vulnerable to destruction than TMM.

    I have stated for the 3rd time now that the breakup of a relationship is more damaging to children than cheating or adultry. I have stated for the 2nd time now that not telling your children about your OLTR relationship makes it look like a TMM to them. I have stated for a 2nd time now that hiding the fact that you and your partner are in a OLTR will become increasingly difficult to hide as time goes on as I agree with an article in the past which you wrote that it is increasingly becoming difficult to have privacy and hide things about yourself especially all of the relationships you have. This may cause problems if the children find out you are deceiving them and not having a TMM. IF one can not raise children properly, then don’t have them.

  31. @ Pseudonymous User

    Thankyou for reading all of what I wrote before commenting on it. I do not see OLTRs lasting longer then TMMs. OLTRs are simply less damaging to men involved with them than TMMs on average when they fail. Child support issues and the raising of children cause men more problems than divorces with no children or where the children are fully grown.

  32. @ Duke

    You are correct that too many men are weak. Too many men are also delusional. I agree with what you said. If men on average were stronger and less delusional, they would get divorce raped and child support raped less in the court system. Hell, most are not even strong or clear-heeded enough to walk away from a bad deal and not have children and not get married.

  33. However, you have stated many times that about 15% of the population make it work.

    Incorrect. I have stated that ~14% of the population who try TMM don’t get divorced. Most of that 14% don’t “make it work” in that they end up with a shitty marriage that never ends (or similar issues), as I’ve explained here, here, here, here, and numerous other places. Just not getting divorced is not an indication of marital success.

    that is not the majority but it is not your 2% or less rule either.

    Correct. It’s not 2%, but it’s far less than 14%. It’s a very tiny percentage (perhaps 5-10%?). Thus my correct statement, TMM doesn’t work. I’m quite comfortable stating a thing with a 90-95% failure rate doesn’t work despite the rare 5-10% of the time it does.

    So your argument seems to be “TMM is best to raise kids during the rare 5-10% (or so) of times it actually works and OLTR Marriage is just as good for kids as long as the kids never find out.” Cool, we agree.

    I don’t think the majority of people will be able to successfully be able or even genuinely try to do your system either and you said the same thing yourself

    Correct and irrelevant. Even if the failure rate of OLTR Marriages was provably higher than TMM, OLTR Marriage would still be superior since when it fails the it doesn’t destroy the man’s life like TMM does when it fails, thus I would still recommend it over TMM to everyone wanting to settle down with a woman, kids or not.

  34. @ Blackdragon

    I simply meant that it is best for the children to be raised in a TMM because if a TMM is successful it lasts lifelong or at least until the last child is an adult at age 18, and I never said it is the best interest for men to be in a TMM now and looking into the forseeable future. It is always in most if not all individual men’s best interest to be in an OLTR  especially now and the forseeable future in comparison to a TMM in this Western World especially American one. This is the 2nd time responding to you where I have strongly implied or directly stated that OLTRs are better for men now than TMMs and in the forseeable future in this world. I do not see OLTRs lasting longer than TMMs and in fact think that they will ultimately be shorter on average. I doubt the OLTRs with children when they break up will be any less damaging to children.

    It is also always better for individual men financially to stop paying child support when they seperate from their women, and all too often but not always it is emotionally better for men to stop paying child support and having anything at all to do with their children too if they can get away with it. Just like fathers being in successful TMMs( and lifelong OLTRs or at least until the last child turns 18) is generally speaking better for raising children, so is fathers paying child support and being involved in their childrens lives.  Do you advocate for men not paying child support and not being involved in their children’s lives even though it would all too often be better for them to do so? Which is better for the children, TMM or OLTRs? Which is better for the children, Paying child support and being involved in their lives or not? Then ask which is better for men OLTRs or TMMs? Which is better for men, paying child support and being involved in their children’s lives? The answers are all too often different depending on whether it is the men, husbands and fathers or they are the children.

    This is the third time I have stated that a OLTR which does not reveal to children that it is an OLTR is not damaging to them as long as they do not find out. I regard the hiding the fact as you and your partner in an OLTR from other people( which includes your children as they are people too) becoming increasingly difficult to do and you have said so in previous article. Why are you still bothering me about this?

  35. Do you advocate for men not paying child support and not being involved in their children’s lives even though it would all too often be better for them to do so?

    Of course not. If you father children you should pay child support and you should stay in those children’s lives as much as is reasonably feasible. (Although there are unusual circumstances where it would be better to cut ties, but that would be the exception not the rule.) That being said I completely disagree with how the government enforces child support payments as I talked about here and here. But I don’t disagree with the concept. I completely disagree with communal property and alimony.

    Which is better for the children, TMM or OLTRs?

    We already established that. Your bizarre need to keep rehashing that, then turning around and complaining you’re repeating yourself, is odd.

    Which is better for the children, Paying child support and being involved in their lives or not?

    Paying child support and being in their lives.

    Then ask which is better for men OLTRs or TMMs?

    You paying child support and staying in your kids’ lives post-divorce has nothing to do with OLTR or TMM; you should in either case (and are legally required to pay child support in either case.)

    Which is better for men, paying child support and being involved in their children’s lives? The answers are all too often different depending on whether it is the men, husbands and fathers or they are the children.

    Correct. It’s usually better for the kids but sometimes it’s worse for the man. Irrelevant in my view. You chose to create those kids so in my opinion you have a responsibility to those kids at least until they become legal adults (age 16-18), as I explained here and here.

    You really should do more reading at my blog since you’re asking many questions I’ve already analyzed and discussed in great detail.

  36. BD, how did you come up with paying one fifth for wedding and ring?

    Was there a negotiation, or you just came up with a number you were comfortable with and said take it or leave it?

    Man, I would have paid money to hear that discussion. Most men would just bite the bullet and pay the money.

  37. @ Blackdragon

    Thanks for the links provided. It allows me to read and re-read things more easily, and I’m sure others appreciate it as well. However, I find it odd that you try and argue with me over things which we mostly and even more so completely agree. I also find it odd that I am trying to re-state the same concepts in a different way 2 or 3 times in the same thread here trying to make my message understandable as I have had less problems with this commenting on other blogs with people understanding me.

    So for hopefully the final time, I say these things without arguement. We agree TMM is best for women whether it works or not. Lifelong TMM and OLTR(or at the very least the last child turns 18) works for the children, but is bad when it is broken for children. OLTR is best for men and TMM is worst for men. OLTRs will on average be shorter than TMMs but will be less disastrous for men when they break apart than TMMs especially if there are no children.

    here are some potential differences between us which may cause arguements. If OLTRs break apart with children, it is my opinion that they will be just as bad as broken TMMs, but you may agree or disagree. I only agree that men should pay child support to avoid bad legal and financial ramifications. However if they can get away with it and they are ok with doing this I think they should avoid paying child support for reason which I will probably state later.

  38. BD, how did you come up with paying one fifth for wedding and ring?

    I  paid for the entire ring; it was just one-fifth the cost of the ring she originally wanted.

    Was there a negotiation, or you just came up with a number you were comfortable with and said take it or leave it?

    The latter. When it comes to me spending money on something a woman wants my answer is either zero or a specific, take-it-or-fuck-off number.

    Man, I would have paid money to hear that discussion.

    PF is very low drama and she knows it would be useless for her to argue with me regarding the topic of money, so it was barely a conversation. It was more like,

    Me: Here’s what I will spend. I will not spend any more. You’re lucky I’m spending even that.

    Her: <snort!> But… ugh… but so-and-so’s husband… ehh…

    Me: <quiet glare>

    Her: Ugh… okay.

    Most men would just bite the bullet and pay the money.

    Correct, because most men are betas. Fortunately I don’t have that particular disease.

  39. @ Blackdragon

    The reason I said TMM is better than OLTR on average for children being raised is because I believe TMMs are more likely to last lifelong or at least until the last child turns age eighteen. If the OLTRs last as long and the parents successfully masquerade as  a TMM to their children till the end of one partner’s life or at least until the last child turns 18, then it is virtually just as good as a TMM. However it is getting more difficult to have privacy and hide things as you said in a previous article.

     

    The reason I think morally speaking men should not pay child support is that women have all reproductive rights and nearly all jurisdiction over children. Since women have all or nearly all the rights, authority and privleges over children, then they should have all of the responsibilities, duties and obligations. Women with bastard children had all rights, duties and responsibilities over children 200 years ago just like today. However, married and usually divorced men had all responsibilities, duties and obligations over children as well as rights, privleges and authority over children. I think that rights, privleges and authority should never be decoupled from duties, obligations and responsibilities for anything including raising children. Men usually get stuck with the duties, responsibilities and obligations without the commensurate privleges, authority and rights to raising children today. Women get more rights,, privleges and authority with less duties, responsibilities and privleges rasing children today.. This is wrong.

     

  40. If I know that because of various psychological and other personal factors that are beyond the scope of a short comment, that I will never be happy living with or being in an Ltr (even open) with a woman, as a man in his 30s, what steps can I take now, besides the obvious of securing my finances, maintaining some game and so on, that will help avoid any feelings of loneliness as I get older and continue to live alone unpaired but just casually dating? As in, I know it would make me miserable, so I want to avoid living with  a woman or having a long term emotionally bonded relationship, but I have heard indeed that later in life men can have a strong irrational urge for some sort of familial structure and stable partner. I have heard this can be sublimated by being active in one’s community, having pets, and so on, but I’m curious about your take.

  41. as a man in his 30s, what steps can I take now, besides the obvious of securing my finances, maintaining some game and so on, that will help avoid any feelings of loneliness as I get older and continue to live alone unpaired but just casually dating?

    Have an occasional MLTR or two. That’s what MLTRs are “for.” Dating and experiencing those emotions without having to be locked down to an actual girlfriend.

  42. If men on average were stronger and less delusional, they would get divorce raped and child support raped less in the court system.

    Explain to me how this would work.

     

    Having been divorced I had zero control.  She would make filings, I’d respond with my lawyer and being a hardass with the judge would have got me nowhere.

    This is 100% buffer on the posters part.

  43. @ C Lo

    I would consult with the best divorce attorney I could hire first, foremost and always as to how to safely and quickly get divorced. I would read the article ” How to Safely Get Divorced” written by Blackdragon’s / Caleb Jones for some ideas, but follow your divorce attorney’s lead first, foremost and always and not Blackdragon’s/ Caleb Jones nor mine nor any one else’s ideas for how to get divorced if it conflicts with what your divorce attorney says to do. I would advise being as ruthless as legally permitted because the courts and most likely your wife will be. I hope as a general rule with some exceptions that you are first to initiate divorced and that you are thoroughly prepared. If she initiates divorce then consult a divorce attorney as quickly as possible.

    I perceive that I was not clear enough in the comment above so let me rectify that. What I meant when I said that if men were stronger and less delusional that they would get divorce raped in the system less is what I said in the next sentence written by me in the above post that men would not get married in the first place in a system designed to screw them and with a high probability of doing so. The next best thing which I know is extremely unlikely to happen is for men to organize and get better divorce laws is also what I meant when I wrote men would get divorce rapped less if they weren’t so emotionally weak, stupid and delusional. The third best option is what I wrote in the paragraph above. If you consider what I have written to be buffer then please say so. Did this help?

  44. I understand your point Blackdragon, you are not the party type guy, you have about 50… … On a open marriage you are, it’s better than TMM, your wife can make your life happier, but your freedom is severelly damaged. You can not go out with new girls or meet some friends alone all the saturdays night. You can not go solo on big trips on distant countries. You need another house just to go with other girls. I don’t like to go to hotel rooms or something just because I have a wife in my house… I’m 40, so I don’t know how I will think in ten years, but, not like you, I never ever considered anything more then a MLTR without cohabitation. There are many people to meet and go even after the 50th. Another thing,  I think I prefer live my 70th with some friends and hot old woman than live with an old fat tired married woman, not talking about your wife, but this is the normal 90% couples on that age or you are on the 2%?

  45. On a open marriage you are, it’s better than TMM, your wife can make your life happier, but your freedom is severelly damaged.

    Incorrect. In an OLTR Marriage your freedom is partially damaged, not severely damaged. I can still do pretty much whatever I want barring a tiny handful of items. And yes, if you don’t want your freedom damaged at all you should not get married at all.

    You can not go out with new girls or meet some friends alone all the saturdays night.

    Incorrect. I can do this.

    You can not go solo on big trips on distant countries.

    Incorrect. I do that all the time, gone for over a month at a time away from my wife.

    You need another house just to go with other girls.

    Incorrect. In my book I list 11 options you have. I don’t own another house.

    I don’t like to go to hotel rooms or something just because I have a wife in my house…

    In my book I list 11 options you have; you have 10 other options besides hotels.

    I’m 40, so I don’t know how I will think in ten years, but, not like you, I never ever considered anything more then a MLTR without cohabitation.

    That’s perfectly fine. Don’t get married.

    There are many people to meet and go even after the 50th.

    Irrelevant. I’m going to have sex with lots of new girls post age 50 while I’m married.

    I think I prefer live my 70th with some friends and hot old woman than live with an old fat tired married woman, not talking about your wife, but this is the normal 90% couples on that age or you are on the 2%?

    Then have two birthdays; one with your fat old wife and one with your hot friends. Live the way you want.

    And please try to do more research on something you try to make arguments against it. Just about everything you said above was incorrect.

  46. Blackdragon, thanks for the answers, maybe I will do something like that when I get older, but, until now, I will go with fb and mltrs like I did in my entire life.

     

    One more question: It’s known that many woman avoid married guys. How do you do? You don’t tell them? How do you handle Facebook and Instagram? With those apps, in minutes any woman can see everything in your life and even go talk with your wife!

  47. It’s known that many woman avoid married guys.

    Older women avoid married women. Younger women don’t care.

    How do you do? You don’t tell them?

    Yes, I tell them on the first date (but not online). I also make sure to limit my women to age 23 and below (in most cases) since they’re the ones that don’t care.

  48. I would consult with the best divorce attorney I could hire

    what do you think I hired?

     

    i used to collect money for big multinational institutions.  I’m pretty adept at what the law allows and doesn’t.

     

    Avoidance is an effective and underrated strategy.  Get your neediness under control, don’t marry them, and you avoid this problem 100% of the time.

  49. @ C Lo

    I’m glad to know you followed my advice before I even offered it, and that you are adept at knowing and following the law. I’ m also glad that you and I agree with your last paragraph in that men avoiding  marriage and neediness as well as avoidance is the best strategy. Have a nice day!

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