Today’s article is written by my favorite daygame guy, Tom Torero. There is also a FREE audio component to this article above, available for everyone. Tom will also be replying in the comments below. Take it away, Tom!   

For the last ten years I’ve dedicated my life to learning and teaching how to meet girls during the day. No dating sites or phone apps. No late nights in loud nightclubs and bars. Just approaching attractive girls out and about in parks, stores, coffee shops and malls. Being direct, letting them know what you want, taking their contact details and getting them out on dates.   

From Miami to Moscow, Cape Town to Copenhagen, I’ve roamed the globe to over 60 countries and 80 cities to perfect the art and craft of daytime seduction (or “daygame” as it’s known in the pickup community). As an Oxford educated nerd I kept track of my progress, my data and my student’s data, figuring out what worked and what didn’t live infield rather than just theorizing  

This article aims to give you the basic outline of how to get started, whatever your age and whatever city you’re in. But bear in mind that it’s an enormous topic, as detailed as playing professional poker. So, feel free to ask questions below and browse my tenyear archive of videos and books on my website to dive deeper.   

The Two Classic Problems  

Zooming out, there are only two big problems guys have trying to chat up girls during the day.   

  • They fear the approach (“approach anxiety”). Because there’s no alcohol involved, no hiding behind a laptop or phone app, guys worry how the girl will react and how others around will react. 
  • Their default mode is Mr Nice Guy. They ask a ton of boring chit-chat questions in interview mode, they sound like her colleague, they hide their real intent and they Friend Zone themselves, even quitting the interaction themselves early. 

The Daygame Model  

Between 2010 and 2014 a group of London daygamers put together a blueprint model for overcoming these two main problems from infield trial-and-error, adapting the famous ‘Mystery Method’ to the street and for talking to single girls rather than big groups in a club. The same model was then applied across the world, proving its global effectiveness, and refined as the years went by.   

The model consists of five steps:  

  • Open: Overcome your approach anxiety (through repetition and baby-step desensitization) and go and say hello to the girl. Rather than hiding your intent and pretending you need directions to the train station (“indirect approaching”) we like to be upfront and tell her that we find her cute. 
  • Stack: To stop yourself grilling her with boring questions in Nice Guy Mode, we instead make fun observations and guesses about her. She might look like a yoga teacher, or that she comes from a far-off tropical island. Perhaps she reminds you of an 80s rock star. Keep it light and flirty.  
  • Vibe: Once she’s given you a topic to work with (her job, where she’s from etc.) now comes the hard part. Still without asking boring questions or sinking into friendly rapport, it’s your time to shine through flirtatious storytelling where you tease and challenge her. Keep up this vibing until she “hooks” (shows interest in the conversation and asks you questions). 
  • Invest: Once she’s solidly contributing to the conversation, dial down your flirting and attraction material. Get into some rapport with open ended questions to keep her talking. Tell her something about you to ground it.  
  • Close: Don’t hide behind a weak excuse of wanting to take her to a salsa class. Remind her that you think she’s attractive, tell her that you’d like to take her for a glass of wine and that you should exchange contact details (get her number, don’t just offer yours).  

And that’s it. A decade’s worth of teaching and practicing the beautiful art of daytime seduction in five steps. They sound simple, but take months, if not years, to get good at. Once you’ve got the approach (Step 1) and the close (Step 5) down, you’ll find that most of your problems will occur at the Stacking (Step 2) and Vibing (Step 3) stages. Vibing is particularly hard as it relies on you being a confident, charismatic storyteller who never runs out of things to say. This can only come with infield practice. 

Practicalities   

Daygame works best in big pedestrian cities with high foot traffic. The more universities, parks and tourists the better. Think New York City and London. If you’re in a smaller city then you’re going to be practicing in malls, coffee shops and stores but it will be harder to find enough volume to learn as fast.  

When you’re starting out, ignore the many excuses that will pop up in your mind. Treat it like the gym. Most decent daygamers go out 3-5 times a week, talking to 10 girls in each session. To desensitize yourself to the anxiety and iron out your sticking points is going to take a few months.  

Do looks and status matter? Well obviously present yourself in your best light (dress with an edge, get in shape) but you’ll find that charisma and charm are what’s really needed beyond the first ten seconds of the approach. Game is both a value delivery mechanism and part of that value too.  

Does age matter? Less than you think. My youngest student was 17, my oldest was 67. I started my daygame journey when I was 29 and had my most fun when I was in my mid 30s. But I’ve lived with enough guys in their 40s and early 50s to see that the skill set still works as long as you keep yourself together.   

What kind of realistic expectations should you have? Well, depending on your starting point, your mileage will vary. But a solid daygamer should be able to get a number from 25% of the girls he approaches. Out of those numbers, 25% should come out on dates. And from those dates, 25% should end up in his bed. If you think those statistics are depressing then look at your ratios for Tinder or dating sites.   

*  *  *  *  * 

As I said, there’s not enough time in one post to go over the complexities of the art and craft of daytime seduction. I’ve written six books on the subject (one of them an A-Z textbook) and documented the decade-long learning journey in my video library where you can see the theory in action across the world. But for now, leave your questions below and I’ll come back to answer them.  

Remember that “the Game is played infield” so log off as much as you can and test these ideas outside, talking to girls and seeing what works rather than just hypothesizing online.  

Stay horny,  

 

Tom Torero   

LINKS:   

My website: https://tomtorero.com/  

My books: https://tomtorero.com/books/  

My video vault: https://tomtorero.com/vault/  

Both Tom and I will be responding to questions in the comments below, so ask away. 

BD 

64 Comments on “The Art of Daygame Seduction – Tom Torero

  1. One of my concerns as an “older” guy (I’m 50 and pass for early 40’s) in hitting on women I find attractive in public is the age gap. With dating apps, if they’ve swiped on me, they  know my age and don’t mind older men. Tom, how old are you and what is the target age of girls you approach?

  2. Is it at all a good sign of my daygame potential, that a date I went on last week, resulted in the woman I had just met, saying, “You’re one of those guys that can chat up and carry a conversation with anybody.”?  I just had a date from online dating app, and while she had old pictures and was way heavier than I could have known, she noticed as we waited in line for coffee, that I had charisma and was chatting up two strangers (old bored folks waiting in line) to the point she commented on it.

    Side note, she rejected me the next day with “I didn’t have a physical connection.”  No shit, I didn’t either so I gave her zero kino and didn’t contact her after the date until she rejected me later the next day which I would assume was for her own benefit of not getting rejected by me.

    But back to my question..  If a stranger on a date notices I am good at striking up conversation with strangers, is that an indication that I have some skills necessary for daygame?  I’m in a small town so essentially must use online dating, social circle, night game, and day game in order to maintain a roster here.  Day game has netted me zero lays yet, because I don’t really use it to get women yet.  Perhaps some anxiety as this is a more rural community with lots of couples married or otherwise, and very few singles, but lots of cheaters.

  3. One of my concerns as an “older” guy (I’m 50 and pass for early 40’s) in hitting on women I find attractive in public is the age gap. With dating apps, if they’ve swiped on me, they know my age and don’t mind older men. Tom, how old are you and what is the target age of girls you approach?

    Tom should provide his own answer, but for the record, I’ve had sex with 18 year-olds when I was in my late 30s doing daygame at malls and I didn’t have any unusual problems, and that was back when A) I was at least 30 pounds fatter than I am now, B) my hair was clearly thinning, C) had grey in my hair, D) I dressed “older”, and E) and I had less game and younger woman experience than I do now.

  4. This blog post has really made my day!!!

    Reading Tom’s guest post on the BlackDragonBlog is just awesome! (Great idea, Caleb!)

    Tom, I have been following you for quite a while and am really impressed by your flirting skills and your personal journey, how you transformed your life from a socially awkward young man to the man you are today!

    My questions are the following:

    Like you, I have got a soft spot for Colombia and the Culombianas.

    Have you got any flirting and dating advice that is Colombia specific? Is there anything that surprised you about dating and flirting in Colombia? Did you do some day game in smaller cities and if so, how was your experience there?

    Wicked to hear that you are back, Tom!

    DerWeltenbummler!

    P.S. If you are ever paying Switzerland a visit, I’d love to hear from you.

     

  5. a solid daygamer should be able to get a number from 25% of the girls he approaches. Out of those numbers, 25% should come out on dates. And from those dates, 25% should end up in his bed. If you think those statistics are depressing then look at your ratios for Tinder or dating sites.

    Depressing? Those stats are spectacular! But how realistic are they? You state “a solid daygamer.” I would think that 10% / 10% / 10% would be more realistic for most guys.

    ETA: Okay that second number (converting phone #s to dates) could be 25%. If it’s 10-10-10 you’d have to approach 1,000 women!

  6. we like to be upfront and tell her that we find her cute

    What’s an example opener you would use? “Hi! (Wait for her say hi to back) I think you’re cute“?

    I’ve had sex with 18 year-olds when I was in my late 30s doing daygame at malls

    When doing mall approaches (whether indoor or outdoor malls), is it best to open women by first walking next to them shoulder-to-shoulder, match their walking speed, turn your head and open them as you keep walking?

    Or is it better to open women when they are walking towards you in the opposite direction (so you’re face-to-face), you start your opener once you’re in speaking distance, you slow down and/or stop walking, and see if she stops to speak to you?

    had grey in my hair

    BD,

    Which brand and color do you use for your hair?

  7. Great read. Fell in love with daygame in Honolulu, haven’t found a place as good since. Probably the best daygame spot of all time.

  8. If a stranger on a date notices I am good at striking up conversation with strangers, is that an indication that I have some skills necessary for daygame?

    Yes, in fact that means you will do best at day game. General people skills are an absolute must when it comes to day game, and it looks like you have them.

  9. Something I wish Tom would expand on is the slow “pace” of day game compared to everything else.

    What frustrates a lot of dudes with day game is that they will get the contact info and then the chick will ghost and this is because not enough time was spent in the invest phase.

    You need to see your interaction as a “pre-date” of sorts when you do day game. Its a date before the first date. Try to chat with the chick for about a half hour and have a “mini-date” with her. Then get the contact info and invite her somewhere.

    A lot of dudes (especially the ones who follow really bad PUAism which I don’t think Tom is part of) are foolishly led to believe that you can just walk up to a chick, joke with her for five minutes about something, be a dancing monkey, then invite and get contact info. It never worked that way.

    Take your damn time with these chicks in day game. If you invite and get contact info before 10 or so minutes in, it will not convert.

    That’s a question for Tom: How long do you let your day game interactions go before closing/inviting? Like I said, 20 to 30 minutes seems to work for me.

  10. Wait…Tom is suggesting we open AND close by complimenting her appearance? I thought we weren’t supposed to do that.

    There’s a way to complement a chick’s appearance without being too direct, and that is what Torero suggests. Simply saying something like “nice ___” or “That ___ looks pretty dope” or something silly like “dat ___ doe! Nice!” is much less creepy than the usual barrage of complements that chicks get.

    However calling a chick “cute” is like saying she looks a little better than meh. Chicks kind of take that as an insult nowadays. I wouldn’t say that unless the chick is drop dead gorgeous or nearly perfect. Much better to pick out something she’s wearing and say something like that.

    For example if I’m wearing my Punisher T-shirt to the gym and I see a chick who is also wearing a Punisher T-shirt, I’ll point to it, then point to mine and say something like “Nice! I love it!”

    Or if they are wearing a Shirt with a band’s name on it or something I’ll be like “Nice! Ever see them live? If you haven’t you should; They are straight up fire live!”

    The trick is to talk to the chick as if you already kind of know her.

    When dudes complement chicks they often don’t do so with a fun tone and this is what makes it creepy.

  11. Which brand and color do you use for your hair?

    About 30% of the hair on my head is fake so I do it at the salon once a month. If I need to touch up the sides (that’s the only place where I’m grey) I just use those hair color kits for men you buy at the grocery store (don’t recall the name off the top of my head). They work well enough if your hair is darker.

    Wait…Tom is suggesting we open AND close by complimenting her appearance? I thought we weren’t supposed to do that. 🤔

    Very important to remember: Any time I have a guest here giving advice, you’re going to get some advice that may conflict with that I said in the past. As a human being with a brain, it’s up to you to decide A) which path to take, B) under which context you take that advice and C) listen carefully to the advice that you’re being given and not assume anything.

    Regarding this particular topic, I stand by what I’ve said in the past regarding not complimenting women’s appearance, strongly so. Just remember that my dating advice is given in the context of A) online dating and B) while out on a date with a woman. Tom is giving advice in terms of cold approach daygame.

    Tom can also correct me if I’m wrong, but I also don’t think he’s advising to slather a woman with compliments about how beautiful she is, which is what I warn against.  Instead he’s talking more about demonstrating intent (“I thought you were cute so I wanted to come over and say hi” vs. “You are so hot!”)

  12. Honestly? Tom Torero? Who went mia for a year because one of his students got into jail for 2 years for harassing, sorry “daygaming”?

  13. one of his students got into jail for 2 years for harassing, sorry “daygaming?”

    lol damn, didn’t know that was happening to his students too. I mean its almost expected with RSD and Krauser’s students, but Torero? I don’t remember that at all.

    Also who gets two years for harassment? As someone who has been accused and nearly convicted of harassment, the maximum punishment was like 100 hours of community service and a few weeks in jail if I remember correctly.

    Then again this was nearly 20 years ago in 2000 so…

  14. Honestly? Tom Torero? Who went mia for a year because one of his students got into jail for 2 years for harassing, sorry “daygaming”?

    You’ve got to be kidding. That’s your “argument?”

  15. I did wonder why Tom went MIA since June last year, stopped doing his excellent podcast, plus took down his website and YouTube. The YouTube link I gave covers it in the 1st episode.
    He was burnt out, his health went down and he needed to take a break.

  16. Try to chat with the chick for about a half hour and have a “mini-date” with her. Then get the contact info and invite her somewhere.

    If that works for you then that’s great; if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

    The problem with that for a lot of guys is that the ‘insta date’ just leads to half an hour of ‘nice’ chat over coffee. Unless your naturally flirty/edgy, any initial attraction is lost as you come across as a friendly guy rather a guy she wants to sleep with.
    I just spend a maximum of 10 minutes in set. Open with a compliment, then just a some teases about her or what she’s doing, then some comfort to make it seem natural.
    Remember to ask for her number when the conversation is at a high. A lot of guys will chat away & then if the conversation starts to dry up, just go “err!?.. so, we should hang out again! What’s your number?”
    The girl will probably give it to you but when you text her & she sees your name, the first thing she thinks of is when she gave it to you, which you want to be positive, upbeat as she’s more likely to respond favourably.

     

     

  17. Caleb,

    You said  never compliment a woman’s appearances prior to sex…

    https://blackdragonblog.com › six-r…
    Web results
    Six Reasons Why You Shouldn’t Compliment A Woman’s Appearance – The Blackdragon Blog

    Now here you’re endorsing someone who teaches telling a girl we find her  “cute” at the very first stage…

     

  18. @Blackdragon

    So what kind of openers would you use for day game that are still direct but do not slather her in compliments? What did you use back when you practised day game?

  19. I disagree with most daygame advice that have been given on the internet for years.

    I used to do daygame until the age of 35 or 36 and what I found out or realized was that the best chances you got to sleep with women were same day lay attempts. Just cut all that bs out about stuff that don’t really matter at all (jobs, hobbies, family etc). I mean I always thought it was cringy to talk to a woman about traveling, hobbies and her job and then suddenly ask for her number to meet up because you found her hot. That might be ok when you are like 20 and not much experienced with women because you need to warm up first but for guys in ther 30s and 40s it makes you look like a snake oil salesman and women aren’t stupid for that matter anyway.

    What worked for me was direct approach and direct game:

    1. looking, smiling a little and telling her that you felt like talking to her

    2. telling her that she turns you on because she is sexy, pretty, beautiful whatever works in this moment (some women don’t take “sexy” well first because they know all you want is fucking her but they still can’t help it, they like it because chances are it makes them wet anyway)

    3. telling her right in the face that you want to sleep, fuck, lick her etc. Again this will turn her on in some way, her animalistic senses will be awakened

    4. you can still get her number if she is not down for sex that day but at least you made your intentions clear and she knows you are not manipulating or lying to her

    5. in the end of the day many women want to fuck too without all the pressure of going on a date, talking and all that stuff

    This will not only save you a lot of time, it will make you more confident in how you talk dirty to women and be up front with them. Women will respect you a lot more for that then trying to get her to bed with various tactics. Oh and you spend less money too.

    Just my 3 cents of the day

     

     

  20. Saying to a girl that she looks nice or cute in a daytime approach on the street is a lot different to gushing over a 1st date you’ve met via online dating as the dynamic is different.

    With online, you’ve seen her photo, days or even weeks before you possibly meet up so the girl knows that’s why you wanted to meet her.

    If a girl in the street sees you approaching her, she doesn’t think “Oh, another guy who wants to sleep with me”.

    You’ve never seen each other before and saying she looks “cute” or “nice” just conveys that you like her as opposed to say, asking the time or where ‘such & such’ is.
    Guys get hung up on what opening line to use but the simple fact is that the girl will decide to sleep with you (or not) based on how the whole interaction went, not what your opening line was.

  21. For those that have approach anxiety.  What works for me is taking a shot or two of tequilla (needs to be tequilla, I use Patron).  This is no joke.  You don’t want to reek of alcohol or anything, but this works in all kinds of things.  I am not a nervous or anxious person, but we all experience bits of it, and tequilla is the answer.  I had to lead a training session for work and a shot of tequilla before I went to work to do training was just what the Dr. ordered.  When I go on a date, I always take a shot or two before.  It just loosens me up a little.  I don’t even feel a buzz or anything, it’s like taking a little anti-anxiety pill or something.  I’m sure it would help in daygaming also.

  22. One of my concerns as an “older” guy (I’m 50 and pass for early 40’s) in hitting on women I find attractive in public is the age gap. With dating apps, if they’ve swiped on me, they know my age and don’t mind older men. Tom, how old are you and what is the target age of girls you approach?

    There’s something else I’m wondering about age gaps, too. I’m unsure about a very direct approach when approaching a woman 15 to 20 years younger than me in the daytime. If I play it too safe, I understand I’ll put myself into nice-guy territory. But on the other hand, if I get just a little too aggressive, I’ll put myself into creepy-old-guy territory, much faster than if I was her age. I feel like there’s a *very* thin line here, and that point is never addressed by daygame promoters, AFAIK.

    What’s your opinion, Tom?

  23. You said never compliment a woman’s appearances prior to sex…

    Before leaving a comment, please scroll up and read my comments in the thread above yours so I don’t have to repeat myself. Read my comment above.

    So what kind of openers would you use for day game that are still direct but do not slather her in compliments? What did you use back when you practised day game?

    I only did older man daygame (women who were clearly 10+ years younger than me) and it was 10-11 years ago. My understanding from daygame guys is that when you are that much older than the women you’re talking to via daygame you have to go indirect because going direct in that scenario is too threatening / drops the odds.

    I just copied Neil Strauss’s game advice way back then and used lots of routines (The Cube, etc) while trying to come off as cool, friendly, and outcome independent as possible. I also dressed really nice (sometime even a suit and tie) and really played up the older man thing (trying to get those Type Twos). I didn’t use openers; I just said hi or I asked a stupid question “Are these sunglasses for men or women?”

    If I did daygame today I would be much more direct and to the point (though I still would not compliment) and I have no idea if it would work or not.

    I used to do daygame until the age of 35 or 36 and what I found out or realized was that the best chances you got to sleep with women were same day lay attempts.

    This is a different daygame model that I know works. My limited understanding of this model is that it takes a hell of a lot of work (lots of pushing, lots of battering down ASD), a lot of balls most men don’t have, and that the women in this model tend to be less attractive. But I’m not a daygame expert so I could be completely wrong.

    For those that have approach anxiety. What works for me is taking a shot or two of tequilla (needs to be tequilla, I use Patron). This is no joke.

    Haha.

  24. My understanding from daygame guys is that when you are that much older than the women you’re talking to via daygame you have to go indirect because going direct in that scenario is too threatening / drops the odds.

    I don’t do daygame myself, but I’ve read a lot of advice,  and several guys have said exactly this.

    Tom, can you comment?

  25. One of my concerns as an “older” guy (I’m 50 and pass for early 40’s) in hitting on women I find attractive in public is the age gap.

    My experience is this is a non issue.  If you open her properly and she starts throwing you IOIs, it’s game on.

    If she’s polite but “turns away” or worse, politely exit and move onto the next.

    You are going to miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.  This is a self solving problem.  Get out there.

  26. There’s a way to complement a chick’s appearance without being too direct, and that is what Torero suggests.

    Exactly.

    You never wander up to some girl and say “hey honey, nice rack!”  It’s gonna get you punched (if you are lucky) and otherwise wastes your time and creeps her out.

    So you have to infer it.  Women understand indirect communication (much to men’s chagrin) so use that to your advantage and compliment something that 1) is personal and 2) they will infer is a reflection on them without 3) being creepy.

    My go to is shoes. “Hey! (Waits for eye contact) Cute shoes!” literally works every time.  You could do her handbag or her jewelry or her hairstyle or her clothes as long as it’s not creepy and legitimate.

    Also, you can safely use this in a professional environment (like a conference – don’t mess with women you work with)  and nobody will be any wiser.  You can even do it around other women.

    Look, it’s just an opener that shows interest, calibrated to not make anyone feel awkward, that gives her a chance to throw you IOIs back.  Don’t overthink things.

     

  27. This is a different daygame model that I know works. My limited understanding of this model is that it takes a hell of a lot of work (lots of pushing, lots of battering down ASD), a lot of balls most men don’t have, and that the women in this model tend to be less attractive. But I’m not a daygame expert so I could be completely wrong.

    No, you are right for the most part. I would never call myself a daygame expert but I can assure you that the quality of women varies from overweight and chubby yet still hot and average looking with good body up to pretty and hot. So in conslusion, there has to be something about the woman that turns me on and most of the time, it’s her body. I don’t mind average looking faces as long as they have hot curvy bodies. Sometimes I find a woman hot when she acts nasty, even if she is not that curvy or hot looking. A pretty face on its own doesn’t do much for me, if her body doesn’t turn me on but usually a pretty face goes hand in hand with a good body.

    The reason I recommend direct game amongst the sexual escalation advance is the flake ratio when using indirect game. Getting a number doesn’t mean much in 2020 because we all know women get distracted easily by online dating apps.  She might change her mind or meet someone else.

    As for the age gap, I am 39 now, so if I wanted to sleep with an 18 year old girl, I would have to wait for her to give me some signals first, a deep stare, smile or whatever.  I would have to make sure she is looking for the same thing, which she probably is anyway and then I would do the same routine I do with older girls and women. I am not sure how would handle this in 10 years when I am like 50. Maybe I would have to change my approach then.

  28. wonderful. finding girls during the day is a good fit for me. I too have been nervous just from the standpoint of being at a mall and getting in trouble/the girl telling security blahblahblah

    I can see if its lowkey and to the point, no harm no foul but am interested to hear from Tom in this regard etc.

    Im busy so meeting girls on the fly is very valuable

  29. One of my concerns as an “older” guy (I’m 50 and pass for early 40’s) in hitting on women I find attractive in public is the age gap. With dating apps, if they’ve swiped on me, they  know my age and don’t mind older men. Tom, how old are you and what is the target age of girls you approach?

    You’re only as old as the woman you feel 😉 I’m 40 and approach girls in their early to mid twenties. It’s only a problem if you make it a problem.

     

    If a stranger on a date notices I am good at striking up conversation with strangers, is that an indication that I have some skills necessary for daygame?

    That’s a good sign, but make sure you’re more than just the ‘social chatty guy.’ Remember to show intent and progress things through verbal and physical escalation.

     

    Have you got any flirting and dating advice that is Colombia specific? Is there anything that surprised you about dating and flirting in Colombia? Did you do some day game in smaller cities and if so, how was your experience there?

    Have a listen to my second Black Sheep Bandit podcast on YouTube. Collecting numbers is straightforward in Colombia but be prepared for a wild flake rate. On the date they’re sensual and fiery so escalation is fast.

     

    Depressing? Those stats are spectacular! But how realistic are they? You state “a solid daygamer.” I would think that 10% / 10% / 10% would be more realistic for most guys.

    As I say in the audio interview at the top of the article, your milage may vary depending on your starting point but the stats you quote would indicate something’s massively wrong with your Sexual Market Value or your daygame skills.

     

    What’s an example opener you would use? “Hi! (Wait for her say hi to back) I think you’re cute“?

    You want a low-investment compliment after a pre-opener, so: “Hey…I know this is random…but I just saw you from over there and I wanted to say you look cute.” Then without pausing move into Step 2 (Stacking).

     

    When doing mall approaches (whether indoor or outdoor malls), is it best to open women by first walking next to them shoulder-to-shoulder, match their walking speed, turn your head and open them as you keep walking?

    Or is it better to open women when they are walking towards you in the opposite direction (so you’re face-to-face), you start your opener once you’re in speaking distance, you slow down and/or stop walking, and see if she stops to speak to you?

    Watch my ‘Beginner’s Guide To Daygame’ video (from the sign up on the front page of my site) to see me teaching beginners the mechanics of the stop live infield.

     

    Wait…Tom is suggesting we open AND close by complimenting her appearance? I thought we weren’t supposed to do that

    Direct daygame indeed begins with a compliment, but it’s a LOW INVESTMENT compliment (“nice” or “cute”). The important thing is to then follow it up with some playful teasing when you move into Stacking, in order to redress the frame. In Game this is called Push-Pull or Fractionation.

     

    That’s a question for Tom: How long do you let your day game interactions go before closing/inviting? Like I said, 20 to 30 minutes seems to work for me.

    Anything under 5 minutes has a high flake rate. Over 10 minutes and you’re sinking into Friend Zone chit chat. We’ve found the optimum solid interaction lasts around 7-10 minutes. Taking her on an Instant Date is good practice for beginners but statistically I’ve seen that it makes little difference to the end result if your initial daygame is solid.

     

    There’s something else I’m wondering about age gaps, too. I’m unsure about a very direct approach when approaching a woman 15 to 20 years younger than me in the daytime. If I play it too safe, I understand I’ll put myself into nice-guy territory. But on the other hand, if I get just a little too aggressive, I’ll put myself into creepy-old-guy territory, much faster than if I was her age. I feel like there’s a *very* thin line here, and that point is never addressed by daygame promoters, AFAIK.

    What’s your opinion, Tom?

    “I’m too old” is a classic limiting belief, as is height and baldness. “Whether you think you can, or think you can’t, you’re right” as Mr Ford said. Go out and test this limiting belief incrementally….if you’re 40 then start by talking to girls in their 30s. Get positive references then try it on girls in their late twenties. Rinse and repeat. Infield feedback is the only way to address these excuses.

  30. @ Tom Torero

    Tom, I can somehow imagine that the “I saw you from over there and wanna say you’re cute” line might work on less attractive women. Personally I’ve heard it so many times in my life that it makes me wanna puke.

    Oh and someone else suggested the “shoe” thing (complimenting something random). That just makes the guy look like a weirdo. Why the hell would you come up to me to comment on my shoes??

    Honestly, for all his shortcomings, joelsuf seems to be giving the most practical advice on this thread. Relating to a girl, e.g. through her favourite band advertised by her T-shirt, may strike the chord. I can also confirm that “cute” translates as “better than meh”.

  31. K – Yep, mentioning something distinctive that a girl is wearing is good as you can run with it but if the girl is just wearing all black or in a sweatshirt & jeans, you need to be able to make another assumption, not based on her appearance.

    As for saying she’s cute or looks nice, it’s just a low investment way of saying you like the girl. I’ve used on dozens of attractive girls who I’ve ended up dating. As I said before, girls won’t dismiss you over what you said as an opener. It’s down to the interaction that determines it.

  32. Great stuff Tom.

    I’ve gotten pretty good over the last few years thanks to BD and a few others.

    My only question is that every once in a while, I will see a girl “out of the blue” I wasn’t expecting and then kind of forget what to say or what to talk about.    (when your heart is racing some)

    Did you start by having gambits ready ala Mystery style or how did you train yourself to do easy back and forth conversation on the spot?

    Re-looking at your points above, I would say at the moment I’m pretty good at Open and Close.   lol

    But, I’m more of a BD method guy and don’t generally open women out and about, so this is all interesting and useful.

  33. typo

    Fixed. Thanks.

    Tom, I can somehow imagine that the “I saw you from over there and wanna say you’re cute” line might work on less attractive women. Personally I’ve heard it so many times in my life that it makes me wanna puke.

    Oh and someone else suggested the “shoe” thing (complimenting something random). That just makes the guy look like a weirdo. Why the hell would you come up to me to comment on my shoes??

    I understand your opinion. At the same time, what women are attracted to and what women say they’re attracted to are two different things. “Men should just be themselves.” “Men should take women out to dinner to show them they care.”  And so on. Thousands of men like Kyle above have had fast sex with thousands of women by using the advice you’re saying won’t work.

    This is why men can not listen to women for seduction advice. It doesn’t mean you’re wrong; it means you’re coming at this from a very different place men are.

  34. That just makes the guy look like a weirdo. Why the hell would you come up to me to comment on my shoes??

    This response is precisely why is use it.  This woman is not interested, and will immediately tell you with non verbal language.  You can safely move in in two seconds and stop wasting your time.

    Someone who is interested in being approached will light up.

    Pick an opener that works for you. There is no opener that will ever work for K.  Don’t waste your time on women who aren’t interested in you.

  35. As an Oxford educated nerd I kept track of my progress, my data and my student’s data, figuring out what worked and what didn’t live infield rather than just theorizing. 

    How do you figure out where the break downs occur?

    In sales: leads>appointment >sale.

    If my leads are not converting to an appointment, I know to look for break downs in word choice, objection handling, my energy levels, mirror/matching, asking for the appointment, etc

    Not converting appointment to sale I know to look for comfort building, logistics, asking for the sale, making it easy to buy, protecting the clients interests, illusion of choice, FOMO, etc

    Daygame: approach>date>lay

    My approach to date conversion is low. Get numbers, but almost always ghosted. High date to lay ratio  (in my limited experience)

    I struggle with spotting my errors though, what do I actually look for?

    I’m not nearly as uncalibrated with women as this question probably makes me sound lol

  36. If my leads are not converting to an appointment, I know to look for break downs in word choice, objection handling, my energy levels, mirror/matching, asking for the appointment, etc

    If you know it’s in leads, try to break it down where it fails exactly.  Sometimes it’s not your fault.

    i have seen lead driven salesmen get burned to the ground because someone prequalified the leads and gave up the good ones to someone else.  Watched it happen a couple of times.

    Sometimes it’s out of your control, the trick is to figure out when you need to make a change or when you are just running bad.

  37. Honestly, for all his shortcomings, joelsuf seems to be giving the most practical advice on this thread.

    lol thank you. I’m kind of a natural at getting chicks, but I’m extremely lazy about it: Go for meh looking chicks, don’t get out there enough, etc.

    Being practical works if you’re willing to get your name out and understand that treating chicks “differently” is really stupid.

    Anything under 5 minutes has a high flake rate. Over 10 minutes and you’re sinking into Friend Zone chit chat. We’ve found the optimum solid interaction lasts around 7-10 minutes.

    Seems interesting, I shall try for the 7-10 minute mark next time I do some offline approaching.

    Oh and someone else suggested the “shoe” thing (complimenting something random). That just makes the guy look like a weirdo. Why the hell would you come up to me to comment on my shoes??

    LMAO this ALL depends on delivery. I can comment on a chick’s shoes and not look like a weirdo cuz 1) I don’t have a lot of emotional stake in the chick’s response, 2) she COULD call me a weirdo and I can turn it around (dudes really need to learn how to come up with a nice comeback: For example, say the chick calls me creepy or something after I say “dem heels doe!” or something like that. My comeback would be like “no I don’t have a fetish or something, they just caught my eye, that’s all.”) and 3) I know how to deliver a complement to where I am being fun and carefree.

    A lot of dudes come across overly serious/beta when they complement chicks and that’s why it doesn’t work 95% of the time.

    Personally I’ve heard it so many times in my life that it makes me wanna puke.

    Oh yeah, I actually mention this to chicks if I complement them. I’ll go “Am I like the over 9000th dude to say that to you? Sorry if I was a tad bit unorginal. My bad.”

    Dudes just need to learn some people skills and get their name out if they want to do day game.

  38. i have seen lead driven salesmen get burned to the ground because someone prequalified the leads and gave up the good ones to someone else.  Watched it happen a couple of times.

    My team generates all my leads, so I’m good there. We’re in the top 1% for my industry.

    If I want more women leads I’d have to move to a bigger area though haha (I choose not to)

  39. One of my concerns as an “older” guy (I’m 50 and pass for early 40’s) in hitting on women I find attractive in public is the age gap. With dating apps, if they’ve swiped on me, they know my age and don’t mind older men. Tom, how old are you and what is the target age of girls you approach?

    Check out “52 First Dates” channel on YouTube. Unfortunately his channel has recently gone into limbo, but he’s in his 50’s, doesn’t hide his age and goes for women in their 20’s and up. Very suave dude.

  40. Did you start by having gambits ready ala Mystery style or how did you train yourself to do easy back and forth conversation on the spot?

    From structure comes freedom – I started out with learning stock teases, rehearsed stories etc and then shifted to improvisation. Just like learning the guitar or how to surf, start off drilling the basics before trying to freestyle.

     

    Tom, I can somehow imagine that the “I saw you from over there and wanna say you’re cute” line might work on less attractive women. Personally I’ve heard it so many times in my life that it makes me wanna puke.

    “Don’t ask fish for advice on catching fish…ask a fisherman” 😉

     

    How do you figure out where the break downs occur?

    In sales: leads>appointment >sale.

    Track your key metrics: Number of opens -> contact details, contacts -> dates, dates -> lays. Too many flakey numbers means the problems are in the initial interaction. Watch the Beginner’s Guide To Daygame video to troubleshoot which part of the model is the problem. At the back of the accompanying PDF there’s a check-list to make it clear.

  41. Thx a lot Tom and also BD for opening up this opportunity.

    Hope more guys become guest writers in the future! I love when everybody can talk about seduction outside the noise of the forums.

  42. Hope more guys become guest writers in the future! I love when everybody can talk about seduction outside the noise of the forums.

    That is exactly my goal; have a place were men can focus on discussing pickup technique instead of arguing about pickup ideology or egos. Eventually I’d like to have a night game guy, social circle guy, and perhaps another relationships guy do guest posts here. Working on it.

  43. Eventually I’d like to have a night game guy, social circle guy, and perhaps another relationships guy do guest posts here.

    I doubt he is going to accept it due to past grievances, but you should really ask Teevster to talk about night game.

    Tubarao is the perfect fit for relationships, but he’s been MIA since 2017!!!

  44. you should really ask Teevster to talk about night game

    Did you not read what I said about not wanting arguments about ego or ideology? I need someone who is good at night game and can engage in mature, rational discussions even with people they strongly disagree with or heavily dislike. There are few guys out there who fall into that category who I have in mind and some of whom I’ve spoken to. But I’m willing to listen to suggestions.

    Tubarao is the perfect fit for relationships, but he’s been MIA since 2017!!!

    I’ve already asked him twice. He’s not interested in this world anymore. It’s going to have to be someone else.

  45. I fall into the category of a smaller city, around 2 million, and like the vast majority of US cities it is definitely not heavy on foot traffic.

    I took three trips to the three largest malls in the area, spent about three to four hours in each one, without seeing more than one or two attractive women in total, so that’s just far to big a waste of time.

    From there, the biggest problem is that it is exceedingly rare that women are walking around alone. Usually two to four girls together.

    The only girls you see alone are cashiers and such in the stores.

    I find approaching multiple girls dramatically more uncomfortable than a single girl. What is your advice on this?

    What’s advice on asking out working girls, considering there are almost always other customers waiting right behind?

  46. I took three trips to the three largest malls in the area, spent about three to four hours in each one, without seeing more than one or two attractive women in total, so that’s just far to big a waste of time.

    Malls aren’t good, especially in big cities.  Anyone who cold approaches in the open like that in LA is trying to hustle you.  It’s hard to even get someone to make eye contact.

    You need to find a place where women have their guard down.  Trendy grocery stores like Trader Joe’s are goldmines, but not all the time. There’s time when they are dead and times when they are almost too busy. My last boss is in his 70s and has been picking up younger women in grocery stores since the 80s. His current gall is a Asian fitness model in her late 30s.

    If you are looking for older cat ladies, just hang out at Target between the booze section and decor.  I’m joking about the cat ladies but it’s true.

    Kinda related, Caleb sent an email out on how to start a business.  You identity who you want to market to, when they are likely to be receptive, and find where they are.

  47. [Tubarao]’s not interested in this world anymore.

    He once let slip enough to reveal his identity. His real name is P. K., right? He used to have an interesting Facebook account, but now a Google search shows nothing at all. I wonder what’s happened and whether the words “this world” are to be taken literally.

  48. I wonder what’s happened and whether the words “this world” are to be taken literally.

    No. When I said “this world” I meant the PUA/manosphere/redpill world. He’s doing just fine.

  49. Wow, so you mean once you get good at daygame, you still need to approach on average 64 women to get laid once? Yeah that’s depressing.

    I’m assuming he’s telling us his worldwide average. Obviously this number varies from city to city. Or is he telling us his average in the US because most readers here are American?

    If it’s 1/64 I’ll stick to online, no thanks. My city is tough for online dating, but I still can get 1-3 new dates a week, and on average around half of those end up in my bed. When I travel, it’s even easier depends on where I’m at. That’s much less work than having to talk to 64 girls just to get laid with one!

  50. @Johan: you’re lucky that you even 1-3 dates per week from online, that’s considered amazing…  because well here I am, I have followed all of Blackdragons advice from his online ebook/have my best pictures/etc and yet I can never seem to get even 1 fucking match or reply in the first place. It’s so frustrating! It’s like yes I realize it’s a “numbers game” but I’ve already put in lots of damn numbers

  51. But I’m willing to listen to suggestions.

     

    Hit up Jake P if you havent already ! He coaches in Hollywood! Great coach! Has coached me through and out of bad relationships and carried the team on a 1on1 that ended with sealing the deal. legendarily accurate texting.

    http://jakepulls.blogspot.com/2019/11/its-alive-new-girlfriend-fastlane-black.html?m=1

    The squeaky wheel gets the grease!

    http://jakepulls.blogspot.com/2015/09/breaking-her-and-secret-to-lifelong.html?m=1

     

    this guy fused with Blackdragon and ive been in a defacto monogamous relationship for 3-4 years, no drama, just making sure I follow the once a week rule (or less!) as I take care of some of  other deeply rooted things in my life.

     

    godspeed

  52. “Wow, so you mean once you get good at daygame, you still need to approach on average 64 women to get laid once? Yeah that’s depressing.”

    Different perspective here I guess but those stats sound amazing to me. I’d be out day gaming all day if I thought I only had to approach 64 women. I’m in sales so I’m used to putting in an insane amount of numbers to be successful. I honestly think that with daygame the average guy needs to approach around 400 women (you get a phone # from 10% of women you approach, 25% go on dates with you, and you sleep with 10% of women you date).

  53. Wow, so you mean once you get good at daygame, you still need to approach on average 64 women to get laid once? Yeah that’s depressing.

    Different perspective here I guess but those stats sound amazing to me. I’d be out day gaming all day if I thought I only had to approach 64 women. I’m in sales so I’m used to putting in an insane amount of numbers to be successful. I honestly think that with daygame the average guy needs to approach around 400 women (you get a phone # from 10% of women you approach, 25% go on dates with you, and you sleep with 10% of women you date).

  54. The reason I recommend direct game amongst the sexual escalation advance is the flake ratio when using indirect game

    You are basically screening for girls that are DTF.  As long as they are attracted to you, they are down.  You are simply bypassing all the BS with all the other women (the vast majority) that will ultimately waste your time.

  55. What’s advice on asking out working girls, considering there are almost always other customers waiting right behind?

    Gamblinsam asked this but I am curious as well.

  56. I’ve already asked him twice. He’s not interested in this world anymore. It’s going to have to be someone else.

    Yeah, I respect that. Too bad because he is really really good at relationships.

    There are few guys out there who fall into that category who I have in mind and some of whom I’ve spoken to. But I’m willing to listen to suggestions.

    It’s kind of hard, because night guys are usually ToTh and have a different point of view of game, seduction and relationships.

  57. What’s advice on asking out working girls, considering there are almost always other customers waiting right behind?

    Gamblinsam asked this but I am curious as well.

    If your talking about girls who work in shops or stores, remember that most girls are on commission so don’t confuse her saying how great you look in that jacket, with “she must really fancy me!?”

    If you do decide there’s something there then ask before you get to the cash register as apart from other customers, her colleagues/boss could be there. So if you’ve tried something on & your both chatting, then before she moves off, just say something low-key like “listen, I know this is kind of random but do you want to grab a coffee sometime!?’

    If your talking about a barista in a coffee shop then, that’s going to be different as chances are that there will be people behind/around you. My suggestion is to just to have a quick fun chat & then pop by again & if it’s quiet, after chatting just say the same line as above (but swap coffee for ‘ a drink’ as the last thing she’ll want is coffee!! Lol!).

    Always have some call back humour involved, as that way you’ll stand out from all the dozens of boring guys who  just blurt out their order. For example she may tell you that she almost knocked a coffee over a customer earlier. So when you pop back in, you can say to her “So are you putting my coffee in a cup or will you just pour it over me?” with a smirk on your face.

    Hired Gun game can really pay off as your breaking up the monotony of their day.
    Go for it!

  58. Was really hoping Tom was going to answer the questions being asked here. Too bad!

    He did.

    And we made no guarantee about how long he would remain in this thread. And it’s also possible he’ll get around to the next set of questions in a few days. (Or not.)

  59. My 2 favorite PUAs working together, perfect.

    Tom, you just posted two new podcast episodes and then nothing. Do you plan to get back to regular podcasts soon?

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