Special treat today. Today you’ll hear from Marty, a guy who has a successful OLTR Marriage (though he is not legally married). In my parlance, “OLTR Marriage” is when you live full-time with your OLTR (as I do) regardless of what you’ve legally signed or agreed to; you’re living as a married man.  

Today you’ll learn exactly how Marty lives and how he manages his relationship. Several of you have asked for him to get into more details about his life. Ask, and you shall receive. 

Marty is a regular in the comments on this blog. I met him and his girlfriend earlier this year on my last trip to Australia. He’s a great guy and his girlfriend is a sweetheart. As you’re about to see, Marty is the quintessential Alpha Male 2.0 and a fantastic success story for men over age 35 to emulate. (Remember, don’t fucking move in with a woman in a romantic context until you are at least 35 years old unless you’re stupid.) 

I’ll let him take over then I’ll wrap it up with my own comments at the end. 

 

My Life with A Bi OLTR! 

by Marty 

 

I am 51 and currently live with my OLTR GF who is 23. We have been living together for the last three years and six months.  We met when I cold approached her at a local bar and managed to get her home and sleep with her on the first night. She was only 19 and a virgin at the time. I had several other FB’s in rotation then, and she became another one. However, she quickly became my favorite and I made her more of an MLTR even though I didn’t know that term at the time. She is very pretty and has the perfect body type for the type of girls I love. When we are out together, I am constantly told how lucky I am to have such an attractive young GF. 

We moved in together after seven months, but only after I confirmed that she was Bi, and we agreed that we wouldn’t be monogamous. Her being Bi changes a lot of things about how our life plays out. We are also swingers. 

I know this is not going to be for everyone. But I’d think a lot of guys would really enjoy the life that I live and the benefits of dating a Bi girl as an OLTR

I am a high sex drive, high variety guy. This means I not only like to have a lot of sex, but I also like to have sex with a lot of new girls as well. My GF and I pretty much have sex every day. So, it’s not like I’m missing out on sex. But I also like to have sex with a new/different girl at least once a week. I don’t mind repeating with the same girl, but I would prefer new girls if possible. My GF has gotten used to this now and knows if I haven’t fucked a new girl for a few weeks I’m going to start getting unsettled. The great thing about having a Bi GF is she is just as keen to fuck a new girl as I am. One of the fun things about our relationship is we seem to have the same desire to play with new girls as each other. 

When we first got together, we were trying to pick up girls for 3somes using Tinder, online and out in clubs. We had some success but found it hard to get a consistent supply of girls. So, this is when we started looking into swinging. My GF is not overly into hooking up with the other guys, but we found the swinging was able to supply us with much hotter and more interesting girls with much less hassle. We also found that we enjoyed hooking up and playing with other couples a lot more than we thought we would.  

I only found BD’s writings about two months after we moved in together. But it really helped with managing our relationship. I put a lot of the new things I learned from reading his info into our life straight away and it was awesome at settling down our relationship and making us less volatile, especially letting go of worrying about what she was doing. I was more of an Alpha 1 before reading BD’s stuff. But once I found his blog, I quickly moved to Alpha 2 and let go of all the bullshit. I really didn’t care what my OLTR was doing when she wasn’t with me, but my old Alpha 1 brain was very socially programmed to wonder what she was up to and be suspicious when she was not with me. Once I found BD’s stuff, I quickly realized it didn’t matter and was able to let it all go. It was very freeing. 

I’ve followed all of BD’s rules with managing our relationship. Our finances are all separate. She pays for all her own stuff and contributes to anything we do together, i.e. if we go on a holiday together, I’ll book and pay for everything and then get her to transfer her share of the cost to me. I got her to sign a type of financial agreement that is like a prenuptial here in Australia. Even though it’s debatable how well they work here. I don’t put up with any drama and she knows that she is free to come and go and do whatever she wants. Although she doesn’t really want to do anything I might not like, she has expressed that she really enjoys the feeling of freedom she gets from not having to worry about me being jealous or suspicious when she goes out or spends two hours longer shopping than she planned to. I never ask her where she’s been or what she’s been up to if I don’t already know and I expect the same from her. 

In the beginning, there were a few issues where she wanted to try and set the rules about certain things. She only wanted us to have sex with other people when we were together and at one stage she wanted to cut back on the number of times we were hooking up with others through swinging. But I just told her no and said she was welcome to leave or find someone else if she wasn’t happy with the way I want to live life. She has now become very secure in our relationship and doesn’t seem to have any sex-related hang-ups at all. So, anything I want to do is fine.  She seems to understand that anything I do is only for fun and if it makes me happy our relationship is stronger for it not weaker. She does prefer that I tell her if I’m going to go have sex with someone else without her. This doesn’t worry me so most of the time I do. 

She seems to have no interest in other guys and only really wants to sleep with other girls while with me, although she can’t avoid getting fucked by other guys when we swing with a couple. It’s sort of the price you pay to get the other girl which she doesn’t mind. She has had the opportunity to go to girls only parties without me or to hook up with a girl by herself one on one. I encouraged her to do it, but she decided not to. There was one lesbian girl from France we met at a pub that she almost hooked up with, but they couldn’t work out a time to meet before the other girl left so it never happened. 

Despite our 28-year age gap we get on really well and have a pretty normal type of life. We work, we hang out at home and with my family. We go riding on my Harley, watch TV and movies together. I have four adult kids and my daughters are almost the same age as her. We often hang out with them and go out. I was living with my daughters when I first picked her up and we started dating. We are both into going out and dancing and it’s very few weekends we aren’t out dancing in clubs or going to parties. We often try and pick up while out but haven’t had a lot of success at that. Although when we do it’s pretty fun! 😀 

We both like to travel, and I am trying to work on getting my finances into a more Alpha 2 phase so we can spend more time living and traveling overseas. We have been to Thailand several times together and we both enjoy hooking up with Thai girls while there. We try and do 4somes when there as we fight over one girl. So, having two means we both get one and then we can swap. It’s crazy fun. I would like to live in Thailand eventually for at least six months of the year and then travel other places for the other six including coming back to Australia. We are both very keen to travel to other parts of the world and explore the swinging scene in various places. We have heard incredible stories about what goes on in Europe and other major centers around the world. 

I have had regular FB’s at various times during our relationship and I do still have two that I sometimes hook up with. But to be honest I enjoy finding new couples or single girls through the swinging more than hooking up with a FB that I’ve already had sex with more than 20 times. I find that once I’ve had sex with a lady more than five times, I start to lose interest in them if I have the option of finding a new girl. My GF is the same as well. 

We have become good friends with several couples that we have met through swinging. As we become friends, we tend to have sex less with these couples and it’s more about just having fun and often about organizing parties or going to parties together for us to find other new couples to play with although the girls will often touch and kiss each other a lot when we are together. It’s not uncommon for the guys to touch and kiss the other girls as well when hanging out even though we won’t go as far as having sex again. I really enjoy this sex-positive drama-free vibe when hanging out with these types of couples. We all know which couples are pair-bonded, but no one gets funny about who is touching who. It makes for some very interesting looks from other people when a big group of us are in a public club. We also share intel with each other on hot new couples we find. 

When we first got together neither of us really knew how it would go given our large age difference. But we both decided to just go with the flow and see how things progressed without putting any expectations on it. As I write this, tomorrow is our 4-year anniversary of meeting. At this point we are more in love and more comfortable with each other than ever. We still don’t have any expectations, but I can’t see us ending this anytime soon. I absolutely love being with her and the freedom I have sexually. So, does she it seems. If this was to ever end, I could never go back to dating a non-bisexual girl.  

Blackdragon here again. A few quick notes on what Marty said: 

  1. He’s a hardcore variety guy with strong Thrill of the Hunt tendencies. Lots of guys ask me if an OLTR or OLTR Marriage is viable for a Thrill of the Hunt man. Marty proves that it is.
  2. His girlfriend pushed back on the open aspect of the relationship several times. This is a normal, natural, and expected thing for just about any woman in the Western world in an OLTR Marriage. Marty handled it correctly; he gently said no, over and over again and demonstrated massive outcome independence. Eventually, she stopped pushing and now she’s happy. Very typical.
  3. Marty had a little trouble finding the type of women he liked. Unlike most guys in these relationships, who just go beta and say,Well, my OLTR is good enough so I’ll just stop having sex with other women,” Marty instead branched out and tried some new things and found something that worked for him (swinging). Again, good for him.
  4. Notice that his OLTR started as an FB, then moved to MLTR, then finally OLTR. While this sequence is not required, it’s ideal because you have maximum understanding of her by the time she finally becomes OLTR. In my life both Pink Firefly and HBM went through the exact same sequence. 
  5. Marty was an Alpha Male 1.0 before converting to Alpha 2.0. There’s hope for you Alpha Male 1.0 guys! I know there are lot of you out there!
  6. Marty was in his late 40s before he attempted this kind of live-in relationship. That is an appropriate age to do this kind of thing. If you’re in your twenties you’re not ready yet. Not even close. Marty was old enough to be ready.

Bottom line, Marty has handled everything in his OLTR correctly, particularly in areas where a lot of guys screw up. He’s a fantastic success story. 

80 Comments on “Case Study: Marty’s OLTR Marriage

  1. Marty was in his late 40s before he attempted this kind of live-in relationship. That is an appropriate age to do this kind of thing. If you’re in your twenties you’re not ready yet. Not even close. Marty was old enough to be ready.

    Guys in their 20s who are trying to get TMM‘ed (I count moving in with a woman as trying to get TMMed) are fucking reckless. Absolutely shocking this still happens in the Western World where the average marriage age for guys is creeping past 30. As a 20-something, I’m glad I don’t have their level of Societal Programming™ (what little I have)

  2. Man that is awesome, thanks for sharing!

    I do not know if Marty will be available to answer questions, but I would be interested in how he entered the swinger scene.

    As a TotH guy myself with zero jealousy, it is something that I’ve been interested in for a long time, but every time I went to a swingers club for example, it was mostly weid/ugly/older people there 🙁

  3. Hi Marty!

    Awesome how you shared your experience here, thank you!

    On the Kinsey scale from 0 (100% heterosexual 0% homosexual) to 5 (0% heterosexual 100% homosexual), 3 being 50% heterosexual 50% gay, where does “The Bi Girlfriend” identify?

    If that helps, a couple of tests that may yield different results:

    Here a test with more casually phrased questions:

    https://www.allthetests.com/quiz35/quiz/1539908893/Where-do-you-fall-on-the-Kinsey-Scale-Gay-test

    Here a test with more formally phrased questions:

    https://psymed.info/kinsey-scale-test

     

  4. I do not know if Marty will be available to answer questions, but I would be interested in how he entered the swinger scene.

    Totally happy to answer any questions you guys have.

    Depending on where you go, swingers clubs are pretty bad. Even for us. We hate them generally. Swinging is a very secretive scene. As a single guy you have to be young, hot, ripped and have big cock. Otherwise you are not going to do well. Even then you will struggle. Even if you have the above you will have a lot of competition. Swinging is a couples scene. If you have a hot girl by your side you will do ok. Like me. As a general rule the girls control the swinging scene. But if you are Alpha and have a hot girl, you will do well. Most swinging girls are Bi and they will be ok with any guy if he has a hot girl to bring to the party. But a guy on his own better be pretty special.

    There are exceptions to this. But you’d have to work pretty hard to find them. We’ve met older guys who have regular gigs with guys who have really hot young wives/gf’s who are letting them come over and fuck them on a regular basis. But I think these guys have just struck it lucky to a large degree!

  5. On the Kinsey scale from 0 (100% heterosexual 0% homosexual) to 5 (0% heterosexual 100% homosexual), 3 being 50% heterosexual 50% gay, where does “The Bi Girlfriend” identify?

    If that helps, a couple of tests that may yield different results:

    Here a test with more casually phrased questions:

    Ok so I just did the first test and answered the questions as I think she would. There is no chance she will take the time to do it. She won’t give a fuck.

    But that test is just dumb. The assumption and basis for that test is that you are monogamous and either want one or the other. She scored a 40% homosexual by the way. Which is wrong on so many levels.

    She is Bi. But you have to allow for the fact that she has a primary relationship with a guy. So she is in love with me and spends most of her life with me and loves to get fucked by me every day. But, she is Bisexual and loves to fuck other women. So she pretty much only ever looks at or is interested in women. She is obsessed with other women and wants to have sex with as many of them as she can get her hands on. But would that be different if she didn’t have a primary relationship with a guy? We don’t know. She was a virgin when I met her and had never had sex with a women or a man. Now she’s had sex with more than 200 women and probably more than 45 men. She doesn’t mind getting fucked by guys but generally can take it or leave it and often is happy if we swing and a guy doesn’t fuck her.

    I hate all the definitions, labels, pronouns and all that sort of stuff. But one thing I don’t disagree with at all is the spectrum. No one is gay or straight. Everyone is on the spectrum somewhere. These hard definitions and trying to box people is just silly. And I’ve talked at length with my GF about this. Because we see it a lot in the girls who swings. Guys are much more hard coded. Very few Bi guys around. (But…there are a LOT of guys who like Ladyboys!) It does depend a lot on what your primary relationship is. Because if you have a strong connection there your extra sex is going to take a different form to if you don’t. One is sex and attraction and one is relationship based. They are two very different things. Especially for women!

  6. Congrats to Marty! Sounds fun.

    I had to comment because it irked me when BD said “Marty has handled everything in his OLTR correctly”. I hope BD doesn’t mean moving in with a teenager part: 19yo that just lost her virginity 7-months earlier.

    I wonder if Marty throughout these last 4 years have met any other woman that he wanted to explore deeper than just at FB / ONS / swinging level.

  7. Marty’s OLTR is 23 (and was 19-20 when they met), which makes her a VYW. BD has said in the past that OLTRs and high-end MLTRs tend to last longer with older women (my experience has shown a similar trend, FWIW). Not criticizing or telling others to avoid a similar arrangement, but it’s a disclaimer that bears mentioning.

    @Marty: First off, congrats! Sounds like you’re having a blast. Have you two talked about having kids yet? If so, how’d that go? If not, how do you plan to respond when it comes up? Thanks!

  8. @Harry

    I had to comment because it irked me when BD said “Marty has handled everything in his OLTRcorrectly”. I hope BD doesn’t mean moving in with a teenager part: 19yo that just lost her virginity 7-months earlier.

    I hadn’t seen your comment when I posted mine, which was about something similar. Yikes! I’m really surprised BD didn’t mention that.

  9. This is way different than me.  I don’t care for 3 sums etc., nor a woman who is constantly fucking other people, I’d never make a woman like that an mltr much less an oltr, but to each his own, glad it works for him.  I’ve had several fb’s and mltr’s that lasted 3-5 years or more and that’s what I prefer.  I like fucking the same few women as long as possible and not need to find new women.  That way I’m not putting effort in to new women, and can just add women as they come to me.  Constantly being with new women would = unfulfilling sex to me.  I don’t start getting great sex with a woman until she figures me out and I figure her out.  Everyone is different, so I don’t think you can figure that out in time with just meeting a swinger at a party and getting it on.

    I literally cringe at most aspects of this guys relationship.  However I applaud the youthful age of his OLTR, that is definitely something I can appreciate.  If a woman I see is fucking lots of other people, that defines her as FB for me.  I’m fine with it, but my favorite women are the ones who are so in to me, they don’t like to play around with anyone else.

  10. Regarding the age of Marty’s OLTR, yes, she is way too young in my opinion and by living with a woman that young he is violating that part of my model and my advice. I think moving in with a woman under the age of around 25 (or so; there is no solid age) is not a good idea at all, I don’t recommend anyone do that, and I described my reasons for that here.

    At the same time, when I said that Marty has handled everything in the OLTR relationship correctly, that is accurate. Once he was actually in the relationship, he did literally everything correctly and he is a good role model for an Alpha Male 2.0 in an OLTR or live-in OLTR in terms of how he manages the relationship. The issue of her young age regards when he established the relationship at the very beginning, not the management of the relationship once it was active.

    I literally cringe at most aspects of this guys relationship.  However I applaud the youthful age of his OLTR, that is definitely something I can appreciate.

    The beauty of Alpha Male 2.0 is that you can configure the ideal long-term relationship that works best for you. No long term OLTR looks exactly the same, nor should it. My relationship with PF is different than Marty’s with his girl, for example (PF isn’t bi, PF is much older and lives a very different type of life, I have very steady, long-term FBs on the side since I don’t have any Thrill of the Hunt, etc, etc.).

    Do what works for you within these structures. Be with the kind of woman you want. It’s all customizable. That’s why it’s awesome.

  11. I literally cringe at most aspects of this guys relationship. However I applaud the youthful age of his OLTR, that is definitely something I can appreciate. If a woman I see is fucking lots of other people, that defines her as FB for me. I’m fine with it, but my favorite women are the ones who are so in to me, they don’t like to play around with anyone else..

    I am with you on that one, Hollywood.

    King Solomon template. No guys.

    I have no problems with swinging. I have done it with my girlfriend in Las Vegas. But I don’t have much of an interest nowadays.

    And everything else works except for dancing.

    Then again, if I was drinking, I would probably get on the dance floor for fun a few times. I suck at it and don’t enjoy it but it’s better than sitting there while your girlfriend is dancing with other partners

  12. I wonder if Marty throughout these last 4 years have met any other woman that he wanted to explore deeper than just at FB / ONS / swinging level.

    No I haven’t. I was married for 20 years and had a 2.5 year live in relationship with another lady before I met my current OLTR. So I’ve only been single for 1 year in the last 28 years. The year before we met. This is the best relationship I’ve ever been in and I’m so happy I haven’t even thought of anything with someone else.

    I hope BD doesn’t mean moving in with a teenager part: 19yo that just lost her virginity 7-months earlier.

    She was 20 by the time we moved in together. I hadn’t found BD’s material at that stage remember and it also sort of happened by default as she started staying over more and more and eventually just never left so we got rid of her place. So while probably not advisable, its been good for us.

    @Marty: First off, congrats! Sounds like you’re having a blast. Have you two talked about having kids yet? If so, how’d that go? If not, how do you plan to respond when it comes up? Thanks!

    Yes we’ve talked about this. I already have 4 kids. The youngest is 20. I have two daughters, one is the same age as her and the other is a year younger (they love her and get on well with her). She doesn’t want kids at this stage. But who knows how she might feel about that in the future. It just won’t be with me if ever she does.

    I literally cringe at most aspects of this guys relationship.  However I applaud the youthful age of his OLTR, that is definitely something I can appreciate.  If a woman I see is fucking lots of other people, that defines her as FB for me.  I’m fine with it, but my favorite women are the ones who are so in to me, they don’t like to play around with anyone else.

    Swinging is obviously not going to be for everyone. And it wasn’t something we wanted at the beginning either. We only tried it out because we were looking for new girls to have sex with together and it was another way to get that. We were both quite anxious at the start about doing 4somes with other couples. But when we tried it, we both ended up loving it a lot more than we expected. Sex with other people is almost like a hobby that we do together and share with each other.

    I like fucking the same few women as long as possible and not need to find new women.  That way I’m not putting effort in to new women, and can just add women as they come to me.  Constantly being with new women would = unfulfilling sex to me.  I don’t start getting great sex with a woman until she figures me out and I figure her out.  Everyone is different, so I don’t think you can figure that out in time with just meeting a swinger at a party and getting it on.

    We obviously like very different things. You style of sex would bore me to death. I already have the deep emotional connection with my OLTR and obviously our sex is very different to how I feel about other people we sleep with. But because I have most of my other sex with her involved as well, it becomes an extension of what we are doing together.

    Some of the things we done over the last 3.5 years have been mind blowingly good. In my wildest dreams I would never have thought I could have that much fun with sex. Nothing I’ve ever done one on one with another women comes even close.

    There is also something that we experience and that most other swinging couples talk about a lot as well. Its a very common thing for swingers it seems. That is when you have a really amazing session or connection with another couple or group, you come away from it on a real sexual high. It is very common for us to come home from something like that and have crazy good sex with each other for several hours. This high often lasts for several days and up to a week. So that you have this amazing super charged sex for days and days after experiencing something that you both really enjoyed that turns you both on to the next level. Its very hard to explain but I’ve never experienced anything like it before I did swinging.

  13. But…there are a LOT of guys who like Ladyboys!

    I sat next to this really hot Thai girl on a bus once and kept thinking “don’t get an erection, don’t get an erection, don’t get an erection”…but she did.

    Sorry, I couldn’t resist 😁

    Anyway, it was good to hear about Marty’s successful OLTR. I never had much interest in swinging, but after reading his story, I can kind of see the appeal.

  14. But one thing I don’t disagree with at all is the spectrum.

    That’s exactly the point of my question.

    Like I would actually be much more interested in seeing the detail of how she answers each question of both test than just the result actually, possibly with her comments. But yeah, I guessed that wasn’t going to happen.

    The first test is phrased in a much more casual ‘dumb’/teenage kind of way, than the second one which is more cold and scientific phrasing. There is no standard test for the Kinsey scale.

  15. Hey Marty! Cool! Well done!

    Depending on where you go, swingers clubs are pretty bad. Even for us. We hate them generally.

    So, you didn’t really answer how you got into the swinging scene. Except to say it’s easier if you’re with a hot woman. Did your girl make the contacts? Did you get lucky and find a non-club scene?

    Ah, a question about finances: I’m guessing your income is a fair bit higher than your girl’s. How does that work out when you go traveling together and stuff? Does it ever come up that she can’t afford something that you’d like to do together?

    Cheers and thanks for sharing your story!

  16. So, you didn’t really answer how you got into the swinging scene.

    Sorry I missed that bit. Best way is through online sites dedicated to swinging. Every city or country has a site or several that is used most by the scene. There are some Apps as well but we haven’t found them to be very good.

    Clubs can still be ok too if you find the right ones. If you meet people in the scene find out what they are using.

    With finances. Yes I earn more than her. We haven’t found it to be too big an issue. But there are some times when I pay for things if I really want to do them and I know she wouldn’t be able to afford it or wouldn’t want to spend money on something like that.  I see that as more spending money on myself though because it’s not something I’m doing specifically for her.

  17. So, you didn’t really answer how you got into the swinging scene. Except to say it’s easier if you’re with a hot woman.

    @Incognito,

    Ha.

    That’s the answer right there.  If he had a woman his (or near his) age…not a chance.

    28 years age gap – blessed !

  18. That’s the answer right there.  If he had a woman his (or near his) age…not a chance.

    That’s not really true. We swing with lots of couples around my age. Mainly early to mid 40’s. But there are lots of couples in their early 50’s as well. Some of the 50’s women are hot as fuck with great bodies. If I was with someone my own age who was Bi there would be no issues with swinging still. And I’d still get some of the younger hot women too as I see those age couples getting it all the time.

    Our age gap can be a blessing and a curse sometimes. It does allow me to hook up with hot young women similar age to her which I obviously love. But we have noticed that some of the older women and even older guys are a bit funny about it and this can sometimes exclude us from groups or people we wouldn’t mind playing with. Despite being swingers there is still a lot of social programming among some of the people involved.

  19. 28 years age gap – blessed !

    Hehe. Well, it’s 22 years between me and my favorite woman, so I guess I should count my blessings too.

  20. If a woman I see is fucking lots of other people, that defines her as FB for me.  I’m fine with it, but my favorite women are the ones who are so in to me, they don’t like to play around with anyone else.

    This kind of comment makes me miss Jack out of the Box. My young MLTR has a high sex drive and a lot more spare time than I do. I’d be worried if she didn’t have quite a few other men. She still turns up regular as clockwork for our Friday evening meetings. Last time, she paused before taking her clothes off and said “I’m going to have to warn you, I’ve got quite a few marks on my body today.” Some impressive bruises and bite marks, for sure. So I added to them, just to teach her a lesson. She’s great. It’s not like I dont have other women too, but it’s no big deal if she has more time for that kind of thing than I do.

  21. What a great post!

    I must admit, Marty’s life is EXACTLY how I envision perfect life for myself. I would sell my soul to Satan to have what Marty has. I was in the middle of life planning according to Unchained Man, but now Im starting it all over from scratch to include that new dream.

    In fact, I think Marty’s deal is better than Black Dragon’s!

    I will probably have tons of questions for Marty, about how he managed to create that life for himself so I could make it my Goal, but for now Im too much in awe to think straight.

  22. Despite being swingers there is still a lot of social programming among some of the people involved.

    Seems like that’s a constant thing with people in general.

    I got her to sign a type of financial agreement that is like a prenuptial here in Australia. Even though it’s debatable how well they work here.

    So, this dovetails with BDs last article, and to me is the most interesting thing.  Can you elaborate more on you local laws regarding the difference between TMM, and how the courts handle disillusion of long term cohabitating in Oz?  Also, what was your TMM divorce like there?

    Interesting post.  Thanks for taking the time to respond to us!

  23. Thanks Marty for the post!

    I have met a few men who have much younger wives/gfs, but the girls seemed lower SMV, or have drug problems, emotional/daddy issues, or immigrants from poor countries.  I have yet to meet a couple where a high SMV woman chooses to be with a much older guy.

    How would you rate your own SMV esp in terms of looks? Do you spend a lot of time/money on your appearance or are the side girls sugar babies? Any advice for getting young girls as an older guy?

    I am in my 20s and it seems that hot/quality girls in their 20s want guys under 35.

  24. Read this.

    This isn’t 2,000 years ago. And you’re not a king.

    More of a loose metaphor than a statement of intent.

    I understand what you mean.

    What I mean by that is as many women as you can have that are really super into you.

    Rock Star status.

    This doesn’t mean they are only with you. Most will have husbands or some hanger-on.

    Of course it’s a fantasy.

    Of course it won’t last.

    Of course it takes energy to manage.

    But it’s always a high point.

    If they are sleeping with other men I don’t have to hear about it or–as it often happens–they may bring up issues with men and ask for advice.

    The key here is they are not throwing their sexuality in your face and making you feel bad. Holding it over you. Aggressively seeking partners.

    Not into it.

     

     

  25. Props to Marty for creating this kind of life – it shows us what’s possible. As for me, I’m still in my 20s so enjoying my freedom, but this seems like a good long-term plan. For now, I’m stuck trying to find quality girls (submissive, bisexual girls with whom I have a great sexual connection) I can add to my roster, with hopes of introducing them to each other at some point for threesomes. Despite getting lots of lays, it’s hard for to find girls I actually *like*.

  26. Marty

    as BDs 3 types of women is your gal more of the submissive type?

    did you two have fights ,she left you thought things were over but she came back?

    do you ever get one it is ,if so how do you manage it?

    thanks

    it seems you keep doing the right things

  27. i like the idea here in the comments of being turbo charged afterwards.

    My life is a little grey for now while I dig myself out of the trench I put myself in.

    Always liked the idea of swinging but not emotionally ready which is okay. I have time.

    rock n roll thanks for sharing marty.

  28. Remember, don’t fucking move in with a woman in a romantic context even if you are at least 35 years old unless you’re stupid.

    Fixed lol.

    I’m just joking really, but I find it harder and harder to trust any chick nowadays. Doesn’t bother me none to be honest but still. There’s no way I’d ever want to move in with a chick that I was going out with.

  29. I must admit, Marty’s life is EXACTLY how I envision perfect life for myself.

    The recurring theme in this thread: Every man has a different picture of their ideal nonmonogamous relationship. Stop giving a shit about what other men want or what you think you should want, and go for exactly the type of relationship YOU want (as long as it’s realistically achievable in the real world and in the long-term, and every relationship type discussed at this blog is).

  30. So, this dovetails with BDs last article, and to me is the most interesting thing.  Can you elaborate more on you local laws regarding the difference between TMM, and how the courts handle disillusion of long term cohabitating in Oz?  Also, what was your TMM divorce like there?

    Over here, once you have been cohabitating for enough years you are the same as being legally married essentially. My divorce was a nightmare as usual. Australia is pretty bad for men in divorce especially if your ex was a stay at home Mum like mine was. She got 75% of everything. I had zero say or rights in anything to do with the kids. One lucky thing is we don’t have any crazy alimony laws here. If your partner is working and on a decent or comparable income you’d be more likely to get 50/50.

  31. How would you rate your own SMV esp in terms of looks? Do you spend a lot of time/money on your appearance or are the side girls sugar babies? Any advice for getting young girls as an older guy?

    I would say I’m above average in looks. Lots of people say I look like Jason Statham. I have the same balding 3 day growth look he does and a similar build to him as well. We are also the same age and same height which is funny. I don’t spend a lot of time/money on my appearance. But I do try and dress well and make sure I’m staying as ripped as I can. The rest of my SMV is probably pretty good as well. I’m a professional that’s run my own businesses for 20 plus years. I’m very confident and good with people and in social situations. I’m reasonably funny.

    I don’t really have many side girls but the ones I do are not sugar babies. My OLTR and I have used sugar babies only three times. But only because I have a thing for black girls and they are hard to come by over here. So we had a little play around with getting black girls off sugar daddy sites. It worked well as we got some really hot young black girls to play with (one was a working model). But its a lot of farting around and we get so many hot girls for free from swinging we decided to stop doing it.

    Advice for older guys. Learn game I think is the MOST important. And don’t just fuck around with it. Learn it properly. I spent a lot of time on my game before I met my OLTR. I did a lot of reading and listened to a lot of programs on Game. I was doing a lot of cold approach pickup. I was hanging out with a bunch of young guys who were very committed to pickup and we were going out 3 plus nights a week for well over 8 months or so really focusing on it. One of those guys ended up becoming a Love Systems instructor. Then also work on your looks and physical appearance as much as you can. Same stuff that BD talks about.

    As to your other comments about the type of VYW who will go with an older guy. I think that is important as well. Most VYW won’t fuck an older guy. Out of the ones who would fuck them or even be a FB a lot won’t be keen to be in an OLTR relationship with one. Its easy to hide sex or being a FB. But not being an OLTR.

    So its going to be a numbers game. You are not going to find one if you don’t do the right things or if you give up easily. But the point of BD’s stuff and a lot of other things is to show guys that they are out there if you look long enough and in the right way.

  32. Marty

    as BDs 3 types of women is your gal more of the submissive type?

    did you two have fights ,she left you thought things were over but she came back?

    do you ever get one it is ,if so how do you manage it?

    My OLTR is a strong Type 2 and definitely a submissive. She also had a naturally low level of social programming. Almost a disdain for regular society and how other women carry on. So she actually enjoys being in a relationship that other women object to.

    We had fights at the beginning but they mainly happened when we were out clubbing and drunk. Having 3somes with one other girl caused some issues at the beginning if I was too focused on the other girl and she felt left out. This still can be an issue if I’m not careful. 4somes with 2 girls or even a couple are better as there are more people to keep everyone involved and no one feels left out if that makes sense.

    But we never really had any fights over our relationship as such. She never left or even thought about leaving as far as I can tell.

    No I’ve never got Oneitis. Even now, as good as it is. If she started to try and put restrictions on me or what we can do I would let her go in a heart beat rather than allow myself to be tied down.

  33. Does the Bi GF get more fun swinging or with the Thai girls? In average, which one generally feels more sensual? More satisfying? Does she have a one strong type of women or on the contrary does she like to experience a wide array of ethnicities?

    And finally: same questions to you Marty 🙂

  34. Does the Bi GF get more fun swinging or with the Thai girls? In average, which one generally feels more sensual? More satisfying? Does she have a one strong type of women or on the contrary does she like to experience a wide array of ethnicities?

    And finally: same questions to you Marty 🙂

    For both of us our favorite would be two Thai girls. Or two other hot girls, but this is almost impossible to to find outside of Thailand (we fucked a hot young lesbian couple once which was pretty amazing). Our last trip we did 10 4somes and some of them were insanely fun. All the girls were very hot, early 20’s with amazing bodies etc.

    But in general she likes any girl who is pretty and skinny with a good body. She is more interested in how much they are into girls. She doesn’t like girls who are just playing around with it and not really into girls properly. She doesn’t like big tits. I’m the same but I have a strong attraction to black girls as well. I don’t mind bigger tits than her but not too big. Neither of us like the Kim K big ass style that everyone seems to love these days. Toned ballet dancer style body is more our style.

    But then again we both really enjoy the swinging. Its hard to explain, but having sex with one girl is very one dimensional compared to swinging. So how hot she is, her personality and how you click sexually is very important.

    With swinging you have mostly 4 people, but can be up to 20 or more. So the dynamic is way different. Plus you have your partner who you are very connected to involved at the same time. I find my GF incredibly hot, so seeing her naked and having sex with any other girl is almost and instant turn on for me anyhow. During any session we have there is a lot of interaction between us. Lots of it is non-verbal just communicating with each other through our eyes. We both know what the other likes and we work to get that for each other. If I’m doing something to another girl that she knows I would be really enjoying she will be touching me and kissing me etc at the same time. Same for me with her. The positions you can do the types of things that go on are way more dynamic and interesting than straight sex. So how hot the other girl or girls are is less important. It more comes down to the over connection and overall vibe between the whole group. Obviously if the other girl is super hot then its even better again. The other guy can make a big difference on how we enjoy it even though there is no sexual interaction between me and him because he will have a big impact on how the group vibe is.

    That’s one of the fun things about it all. You never know what might happen or how its all going to go. When it goes well you often come away from it with very weak knees, going holy fuck, I can’t believe that all just happened. This is when you will end up in that supercharged sex zone and take it out on each other over the next few days. We will often talk about it for days afterwards as well if we both had a new or incredible experience.

  35. Awesome!Thanks for your in depth answers Marty 🙂

    I did a fair amount of swinging, mostly 4somes but also some clubs and some BDSM parties. I really like swinging and the people are super interesting to talk with: the intellectual level was significantly higher, in my experience, than usual. I have only experience in one country, so I am not sure if that is the case elsewhere.

    I am also not very obsessed with big boobs, however I do like rounder butts than you 2 do: I probably like more glute muscles and also a tad bit more fat than what I understand your tastes to be. I am quite obsessed with very petite women.

    I really like certain types of south east Asians and west african black women. I really like certain types of Filippinas more, but in average I find Thai more fit. A pretty fit Filippina will probably win me over the same in a Thai though since I can be more into their face and they are more petite. I went in Vietnam too but wasn’t attracted at all by the vast majority of women there: too white for me, and not feminine a kinda nerdy weird fashion was a big turn off. I loved DaNang city though.

    As for black women I haven’t been able to pinpoint exactly which country, it seems to be more tropical west Africans. Recently I hooked up a few times with a very hot petite Haitian who just looked “pure” black african to me and she looked very similar to the sisters of a Cameroonese guy. I was surprised that she had no hair on her legs contrary to mixed black women, her skin was also much smoother, as smooth if not more than a Thai.

    go for exactly the type of relationship YOU want (as long as it’s realistically achievable in the real world and in the long-term, and every relationship type discussed at this blog is)

    My ideal set up is very specific, I tend to think it isn’t very realistic, and I have no idea how to do it:

    Ideally I would like to be in a FwB/MLTR/secondary relationship with each bisexual woman of a south east asian and tropical west african lesbian couple (OLTR/primary). I don’t like to take part of a primary/OLTR relationship, and I love to live alone I don’t want to give that up. I don’t have Marty and his GF Thrill of The hunt appetite for that amount of novelty. Needing one new woman every week and getting bored after 5 times is very foreign to me. I would much rather have just these 2 women and do some swinging with them possibly with a few good couples that we would see over and over. And/or just have a 2~3 other long term FwB/MLTRs. Anyways there would still be new women coming and going after months or years, that’s enough newness for me. But fucking only one ethnicity is very unfulfilling for me. I don’t know why but I really crave fucking both types of women I just described. And possibly more ethnicities.

  36. A quick one: the Thai girls are sex workers? Or civilians?

    Sex workers. It’s much easier and more fun than trying to find civilians. Plus the experience is nothing like sex workers in the west.

    Our last trip we did 10x4somes and 8x3somes in 10 days. No way you would have that much fun if you were trying to pick up normal girls.

    Plus it gives us more time to enjoy ourselves doing other things together in between rather than blowing hours trying to hook up with girls.

  37. I really like swinging and the people are super interesting to talk with: the intellectual level was significantly higher, in my experience, than usual.

    This is definitely our experience. The couples we have met have been mostly mid level to quite high level professionals. Smart, intellectual, very open and interesting type of people. (We’ve had sex with 3 female Surgeons so far.) The other thing I would say is that most couples are really tight and you can tell they are very solid in their relationship. Most have normal families and kids etc. And mostly they are very secretive and very few people in their normal life know they are swingers.

    Also found them to be the type of people who are very keen to stay fit and look after their bodies. The bodies and hotness level of female swingers in their 40’s are way above normal. And like I’ve said above the ones in their 50’s have surprised me with how attractive they have been able to stay.

  38. Sex workers. It’s much easier and more fun than trying to find civilians. Plus the experience is nothing like sex workers in the west.

    Our last trip we did 10x4somes and 8x3somes in 10 days. No way you would have that much fun if you were trying to pick up normal girls.

    Well, I would have been blown away if they were civilians. Despite its reputation, Thailand isn’t really such a sex positive or uninhibited place — much less than Indonesia or the Philippines — although I’ve heard it does have quite a big gay and lesbian scene.

    I’ve never done hookers in the west, only in Asia, so I’m not sure about the difference. Certainly Indonesian sex workers are friendly, hard working and generous. I’d find it hard to imagine Australian workers like that.

  39. Well, I would have been blown away if they were civilians. Despite its reputation, Thailand isn’t really such a sex positive or uninhibited place

    Yeah Thailand is quite a strange place. They are pretty much more open and free thinking sexually than anywhere I’ve been at the base level. They live and let live. Gay’s, LB’s, hookers. Everyone is cool if they are poor. But if you get into the middle class or elite’s they are super conservative. Very much a caste system.

    If you’ve ever seen a poor Thai around a so called “HiSo” you’d know what I mean.

    We’ve heard from others that there is a pretty amazing swinging scene among the elite’s and middle class in Bangkok that love Westerners. Definitely want to check that out sometime. 🙂

  40. Marty, you mentioned you kind of got started with some websites?

    It’s been several years, but I used to be on AFF, and about 95% of the women were absolutely foul (massive, old, ugly, or some combo of all 3). Others were pros, or just fake profiles, the real women (that weren’t fucking gross) were pretty few and far between.

    Did you have to do quite a bit of weeding out/searching to actually get women worth meeting?

    Granted I was a single dude on there before (my oltr now isn’t bi/doesn’t want involved with other women), but do have bi FBs that would probably swing. My only swap was arranged by me, and through in person dealings.

  41. Advice for older guys. Learn game I think is the MOST important. And don’t just fuck around with it. Learn it properly. I spent a lot of time on my game before I met my OLTR. I did a lot of reading and listened to a lot of programs on Game. I was doing a lot of cold approach pickup. I was hanging out with a bunch of young guys who were very committed to pickup and we were going out 3 plus nights a week for well over 8 months or so really focusing on it. One of those guys ended up becoming a Love Systems instructor. Then also work on your looks and physical appearance as much as you can. Same stuff that BD talks about.

    Thank you very much for this piece Marty. It’s really encouraging to know other guys are learning game and succeeding with women on their own therms. I’ve done some swinging (not as much as you), and your assessment seems very accurate and in tune with my own experiences with that scene.

    BTW, where did you get your game info? And who were the guys that inspired you to go out and start cold approaching?

  42. really exciting additional comments here. a good bump of reinforcement that I have the right idea with my current renaissance virtruvian ideals. this is as close as I can do for now with being around the right people. thank you for sharing.

    back to work!

  43. It’s been several years, but I used to be on AFF, and about 95% of the women were absolutely foul (massive, old, ugly, or some combo of all 3). Others were pros, or just fake profiles, the real women (that weren’t fucking gross) were pretty few and far between.

    We have never been on AFF, but couples we know who have say its still the same as you describe.

    We have always used RHP. There are a lot of fakes and time wasters on there as well. But you learn to spot them pretty quick and weed them out. Being a single guy on there is almost impossible though as well. We just ignore or block them. There are way to many single guys compared to the number of couples that are looking for them. There are single girls on there. But the couples and single guys are all chasing them so its very hard to get their attention or get them to commit to meeting up.

  44. BTW, where did you get your game info? And who were the guys that inspired you to go out and start cold approaching?

    I started with a number of books and info from Christian McQueen and Ross Jeffries. I also read the Rational Male books by Rolo which is not really game but helped all the same. Then I looked into what was around locally and found a guy who was running weekend bootcamps on pickup. He was doing free daygame coaching and seminars as a way of getting guys interested in his bootcamp. I went to that and also did his bootcamp. This is how I met the guys I started hanging out with who were all late 20’s early 30’s and some of them had been doing game for 5 or 6 years and were very good at it.

    The guy running the bootcamps above was 37 and had an 18 yo Bi GF. I saw him and her pick up girls for 3 somes all the time. After seeing him and her I decided that’s what I wanted for myself.

    Through those guys I got introduced to RSD and got access to or bought a number of their programs. I also went to Vegas for their week long world summit. Then I did a separate RSD bootcamp as well. One of the guys became a Love Systems instructor and had all the Love Systems books and programs which he gave to me as well.

    I was with these guys the night I met my GF. There were 6 of us at the bar sitting at a big long table. She walked in by herself and did a lap of the bar. We all saw her and 3 of us got up straight away to go approach her. I was just lucky that I was the closest and got there first. The rest is history as they say. haha

  45. Very curious where you got started finding young and attractive swingers. I realize it sounds like there’s a lot of referral stuff going on once you got started but,  everywhere I’ve ever looked, the swingers were very old and unattractive.

  46. The guy running the bootcamps above was 37 and had an 18 yo Bi GF.

    I think I already know the answer to that but is there any reproducible method to find a truely bisexual woman? (not just a somehow bi curious who won’t actually do much with women or who won’t do swinging). Anyone here has heard or read about something more or less systemic on how to achieve that?

    I saw him and her pick up girls for 3 somes all the time.

    You mean outside of swingers websites?!? Like on regular websites and offline!?! How is that possible? I mean managing to do that once in a blue moon seems to me like a massive success and luck, but doing it all the time seems downright impossible to me. Like you said earlier it’s super hard. And even using swingers websites it’s super hard to get single women for FFM 3somes. The vast majority of the action is MFFM 4somes.

  47. holy shit marty, your article (and comments) are a literal gold mine. i can’t thank you enough for taking the time. i’m about 5 years behind you, but everything you say is 100% consistent with my experience.

    i hope you will consider starting a blog or writing a book or something someday. like you, i didn’t discover BD’s content until i was deep in the non-monogamous lifestyle. if this information were more prevalent, i could have saved myself (and many ladies) a lot of heartache and toxicity. if you ever decide to do this, please stop by and let us know, bc i’m already subscribed.

  48. Heck even just finding Thai prostitutes in Pattaya who can actually do 3somes with actual lesbian action isn’t as straightforward as it may seem. Largely doable, but requires some serious searching or recommendations, you can’t just walk on the first one you like and hope she will do it properly or even just accept, they are a minority.

    So what you say about the bootcamp guy: surely this guy must know and do something very systemic or his girlfriend and him would not be able to pick up girls for 3 somes all the time.

  49. or his girlfriend and him would not be able to pick up girls for 3 somes all the time

    it’s not hard to pick up girls for threesomes. just follow the golden rule: be honest.

  50. I think I already know the answer to that but is there any reproducible method to find a truely bisexual woman?

    Seriously, SO many women are Bi. At least 60% maybe as high as 80%. Not joking. Most women are Bi. They are just so scared of showing it because its so socially unacceptable. Women and guys will judge the fuck out of them if they admit it. So they don’t. This is one of the biggest untapped resource of all. If you are a guy who can tell a girl is bi and you encourage her to explore it without any judgement etc. She will go for it. My GF took 6 mths before she admitted that she liked girls. Even though I was saying I thought she was Bi, she was SO scared I’d reject her if he admitted it.

  51. You mean outside of swingers websites?!? Like on regular websites and offline!?! How is that possible? I mean managing to do that once in a blue moon seems to me like a massive success and luck, but doing it all the time seems downright impossible to me. Like you said earlier it’s super hard. And even using swingers websites it’s super hard to get single women for FFM 3somes. The vast majority of the action is MFFM 4somes.

    No I’m talking about cold approach pick up. He was killing it with that stuff. They were picking up girls left right and center. He was 37 but looked about 27.

    I know I said its too hard, but I should probably qualify that a bit. You have to realise that I’m dealing with a super hot 24yo and I’m about to turn 52. We have unique challenges. We have to find a VYW type 2 who also likes girls and is up for a 3some. Its fucking hard. So we sort of gave up. Because its much easier to get a hot swinger couple and go fuck them.

    But if I was like 29-39 and looked young. It would be no problem. Its really not that hard to pick up hot girls for a 3some if your girl is hot and you are young and hot enough. Girls go crazy over my GF but get a bit freaked out when she trys to bring me into the picture.

    We could probably do ok if we focused on this and started to push it a bit. I’ve been showing my GF a lot of stuff I know about cold approach pick up and she is pretty fucking good at it. But we sort of couldn’t be fucked with putting in the work. The swinging is some much more rewarding for a lot less effort. If that makes sense. We picked up a hot 24 yo Colombian chick one night.

  52. Heck even just finding Thai prostitutes in Pattaya who can actually do 3somes with actual lesbian action isn’t as straightforward as it may seem.

    You are doing something wrong if you think this is true. We have zero trouble finding Thai hookers on Soi 6 or any GoGo’s in Pattaya who virtually lose their minds at the chance of doing a 3some or 4some with us. There are so many Thai girls who are Bi and they absolutely love my GF.

    10 girls in 5 days, 20 girls in 6 days and 28 girls in 10 days are our 3 trips so far. Yes we do get rejected quite a bit but its not hard to find girls who seriously love going with a girl. The last trip we also fingered and licked another 25 girls in the hands on bars like Windmill etc. Guys in there were losing their minds watching my GF go to town on the girls. 🙂 So the total girls played with for 10 days was 53. Its was a fucking crazy trip. haha 🙂

  53. holy shit marty, your article (and comments) are a literal gold mine. i can’t thank you enough for taking the time. i’m about 5 years behind you, but everything you say is 100% consistent with my experience.

    i hope you will consider starting a blog or writing a book or something someday. like you, i didn’t discover BD’s content until i was deep in the non-monogamous lifestyle.

    Thanks man. I really appreciate that guys are getting something from this. In my wildest dreams I never thought I’d be living a life like this. So I’m glad if my experience can help some other guys to find there perfect life. 🙂

  54. @donnie demarco

    Am I living in a parallel universe than you? You must be kidding, right? Or please tell me exactly how you proceed and how you successfully propose women to have a 3some.

    I ask each woman I meet if she is bisexual, if she kissed or would like to kiss another woman. I tell them that I think bisexuals are cool and that I like them. On the second date I purposely watch something with them that shows 2 women starting a relationship, etc… etc… And I read all the research paper that say indeed that most women are attracted to women. But I must be doing something terribly wrong because women who do confess their bisexuality are extremely rare among those I had sex with. Among about 100 women I had sex with I would say 2~3% where bi (not counting the exceptions of swingers, because yes swingers women are a majority to be bisexual in actions indeed, but not those aside from this scene). I didn’t try an OLTR with these women, but a lots of them I had FB or MLTR for months, even years for some. Among those very few women only one would actually be sexually active with women on her own. And we actively tried to pick up girls to have 3somes but it miserably failed: at most what we had was me  sex having some sex with one very average woman but almost no lesbian action. Or some lesbian action but the other woman didn’t want sex with me. And that’s it: only 2 ocurences in 2 months of trying, meanwhile with the same effort I can have straight sex with 10 cute or hot new women.

    And Marty, it took you 6 months before you managed to flip the switch on your girlfriend and get her to confess that she had some kind of a lesbian relationship before you. So how did this guy and his girlfriend manage to flip the bi switch on girls left and right all the time for 3some? Those guys have some secret Start Trek type technology OR I am specially made of some kind of bisexual women repellent 🤣

    Again: Inam totally aware that most women are (somehow closeted) bisexuals by nature, and that theorically in can be tapped. But my numerous attempts produced virtually no result (outside of the swingers scene of course).

  55. 10 girls in 5 days, 20 girls in 6 days and 28 girls in 10 days are our 3 trips so far. Yes we do get rejected quite a bit but its not hard to find girls who seriously love going with a girl. The last trip we also fingered and licked another 25 girls in the hands on bars like Windmill etc. Guys in there were losing their minds watching my GF go to town on the girls. 🙂 So the total girls played with for 10 days was 53. Its was a fucking crazy trip. haha 🙂

    You sir are a beast!!! (slow clap). Kudos on your trips, your OLTR and you current lifestyle. I figured you were a student of seduction hahaha. In my experience, the only way to really pull it off is to be around guys that are already doing it and can teach you the kinks! Plus a lot of reading, going to forums and testing everything until you find something that works for you. Very nice stuff indeed!!!

    I’ll sure bookmark this thread and show it to a lot of my early 40s divorced friends who think their lives are over O-o.

    Thanks a lot man, my life is already awesome…. but it’s good to know there’s still room for improvement at the women’s department.

  56. The last trip we also fingered and licked another 25 girls in the hands on bars like Windmill

    The Windmill is surely one of my favourites!

     

    Yes we do get rejected quite a bit but its not hard to find girls who seriously love going with a girl.

    Yes , that’s what I meant: completely doable but not 100% straightforward either: there is some rejection even with the extreme open mindedness and the direct reward of money.

     

    No I’m talking about cold approach pick up. He was killing it with that stuff. They were picking up girls left right and center. He was 37 but looked about 27.

     

    We could probably do ok if we focused on this and started to push it a bit. I’ve been showing my GF a lot of stuff I know about cold approach pick up and she is pretty fucking good at it.

    Ok, so if I understand, and I am talking here once I am with a bi girl, what you are saying is: online is NOT the way to go for 3somes.

    Cold approach is the way. And the bi girl must be able to run some cold game too. Night game, or day game, or both? Do I have to target specific LGBT venues that would otherwise be overlooked for straight game?

    Who approaches the 2nd girl first and how? Who says what?

    I have too many more questions! 🤗

     

  57. Am I living in a parallel universe than you? You must be kidding, right? Or please tell me exactly how you proceed and how you successfully propose women to have a 3some.

    And Marty, it took you 6 months before you managed to flip the switch on your girlfriend and get her to confess that she had some kind of a lesbian relationship before you.

    Ok, so if I understand, and I am talking here once I am with a bi girl, what you are saying is: online is NOT the way to go for 3somes.

    I think you are definitely doing something wrong. The thing is. This stuff is not easy or normal. Its outside normal social programming. 🙂

    Too many things at once. But I think the bottom line is you are over thinking it. This is going to fuck your interaction with any girl. Calm the fuck down man!

    Can I ask you? Are you a bit highly strung?

    2 things I think you need to get into your head.

    60-80% of girls are bi. Seriously, burn this into your brain and don’t let it go! But relax and don’t make it a big deal.
    Act as it no. 1 is true and just assume that every girl you are with is beyond hot for other girls.

    Your perception is your reality. Lots of girls love girls. Believe me. Its not that hard! 🙂

     

  58. I ask each woman I meet if she is bisexual, if she kissed or would like to kiss another woman. I tell them that I think bisexuals are cool and that I like them. On the second date I purposely watch something with them that shows 2 women starting a relationship, etc… etc… And I read all the research paper that say indeed that most women are attracted to women. But I must be doing something terribly wrong because women who do confess their bisexuality are extremely rare among those I had sex with. Among about 100 women I had sex with I would say 2~3% where bi (not counting the exceptions of swingers, because yes swingers women are a majority to be bisexual in actions indeed, but not those aside from this scene). I didn’t try an OLTR with these women, but a lots of them I had FB or MLTR for months, even years for some. Among those very few women only one would actually be sexually active with women on her own. And we actively tried to pick up girls to have 3somes but it miserably failed: at most what we had was me  sex having some sex with one very average woman but almost no lesbian action. Or some lesbian action but the other woman didn’t want sex with me. And that’s it: only 2 ocurences in 2 months of trying, meanwhile with the same effort I can have straight sex with 10 cute or hot new women.

    Its you man. You are setting the vibe on these interactions. You are limiting where it goes. The girls are reacting to you. You don’t believe they are into girls. So they are not. You need to open your mind and see what’s possible and everything will change instantly.

  59. The Windmill is surely one of my favourites!

    You should see the guys in Windmill watching my GF go down on and finger girl after girl. It’s pretty fun! 🙂

  60. Hi Marty,

     

    Nice read here. I have a question… what about STDS? Do you encourage your GF to have protected sex? Does she use oral protection when having action with hookers? Or you guys go all the way Rambo?

  61. Are you a bit highly strung?

    Well Donnie Demarko‘s answer “it’s not hard to pick up girls for threesomes. just follow the golden rule: be honest.”, doesn’t make any sense to me and is absolutely not allined with my experience so yes it made me very nervous and upset! 🤣

    But from your answer about what bootcamp guy was doing bootcamp  at least I think I learnt something actionable: he was doing cold approaches with his bi GF whereas I and my bi MLTR tried only online. I assumed that would be easier, but maybe with the cold approach, especially night game, the situational aspect of women’s bisexuality plays in favour of the 3some because she’s out, alcoolised, in a festive mood. I am also guessing targetting tourists for the same reasons would also be easier for the same situational aspect.

     

    60-80% of girls are bi. Seriously, burn this into your brain

    I am a 100% sure of this without a doubt.

     

    Its you man. You are setting the vibe on these interactions. You are limiting where it goes. The girls are reacting to you.

    I am sure about that to. However I can’t pinpoint where my vibe is wrong and thus I snap at Donnie’s answer.

    However:

     

    You don’t believe they are into girls. So they are not. You need to open your mind and see what’s possible and everything will change instantly.

    No, that’s clearly not the case. I have been sure for years intellectually that each girl is bisexual. I do also feel each girl is bisexual. Bur still it’s not happening. I don’t get pissed while I am with the women, I am a pretty chill guy. But when talking about it here, yes I feel really pissed that I am not able to pull it off even with my bi MLTR who is as eager as me to do it and who likes 3somes and all.

    But, I am just brainstorming here in the light of what you’re saying, maybe I have been approaching their bisexuality in a conversational manner that activates too much their rational brain and not enough their emotional brain? Maybe that’s a big part of what’s wrong with my vibe.

  62. Hmmm. Despite BD’s ‘no screening’ attitude, I do often screen positively for women who say they are bisexual online, even though I’ve never really been into threesomes. I just find that women who describe themselves that way are generally much more sex positive.

  63. Still brainstorming here I am suddenly thinking about a parallel: most women if I ask them directly if they like to receive anal sex will say something along the lines of ‘No I never! And it hurts’. Even if they already tried it.

    However I kinda cracked it and now I am able to do anal with a majority of women the very first time I have sex with her. And a big part of it is to not talk about it and just start with fucking her ass before ever fucking her pussy like that’s the most normal thing to do. Of course with all necessary precautions and lubrication and easing into it and stimulating the clit. But then it’s done, and most will do it each time. A few will not do it the first time or any other time. And a few will ‘drop out’ of it after few months or so, but they would still do it now and then. And a lot will just do it over and over each time, and enjoy it.

    It’s still unclear to me how to pick up a 2nd girl for those FFM bisexual 3somes, but maybe a big problem is that I have been talking about it with women (1on1 discussion, online game with the bi MLTR profile) instead of just doing it right away (cold approach as a couple looking for a 3rd).

  64. Nice read here. I have a question… what about STDS? Do you encourage your GF to have protected sex? Does she use oral protection when having action with hookers? Or you guys go all the way Rambo?

    Obviously we are not oblivious to this and take as many precautions as we can. But oral sex on a women with protection is stupid. You might as well lick a plastic bottle. 🙂 Its a risk we are prepared to take.

    Testing over here is free and you can get results in 2 hours. So we get tested all the time just in case. We’ve never had any real issues.

  65. @Lazy Blitz

    Firstly I wrote those other responses after getting home from my work Christmas party. Which is not a good idea. Few to many beers to be thinking straight.

    maybe I have been approaching their bisexuality in a conversational manner that activates too much their rational brain and not enough their emotional brain? Maybe that’s a big part of what’s wrong with my vibe.

    Boom. I think you are getting it with this. I think you are poking their social programming a bit here. Remember a lot of girls are looking at other girls and feeling like they want to touch them or whatever. But their brains are going…no that not right…what will everyone else think…etc etc You need to create a safe environment where it can just happen. Just like walking up to a girl and saying “do you want to have sex?” doesn’t work.

    but maybe a big problem is that I have been talking about it with women (1on1 discussion, online game with the bi MLTR profile) instead of just doing it right away (cold approach as a couple looking for a 3rd).

    And this.

    I’m not saying don’t talk about it. But the less verbalizing and rationalizing about it the better. As you know you need to trigger them emotionally.

    But bottom line, it is hard. But I think the best advice I could give is to always think about who they are worried about knowing if they do it. Are their friends close by. Will someone else know they did it etc etc.

    When out picking up its much better if the girl is on her own. We’ve had girls super keen on our hand walking out of the club only to have their friends come and drag them away from us. We even had a hot black girl in the cab about to pull away only to have her friends drag her out of the cab etc.

    I think your comparison to the anal thing is very on point.

    With regards to my bootcamp instructor. Firstly, he was 6’2″, built, good looking. Although he was 37 he didn’t look much over 25. Prefect skin. The whole nine yards. Plus….he was extremely good at pickup. His GF was very hot as well. But it wasn’t like they just fell out of the sky at them. They were working hard. He loved day game and he loved to target foreign backpackers on their own. But it wasn’t unusual for them to approach 20 or 30 girls before they would snag one. But they never gave up and they were always on. Man he had the life. His GF would go out to grab some milk and come home with some hot chick she picked up at the supermarket. I’ve been trying to get my GF to do the same but she’s not that good at it. She did get a super hot 22yo Colombian girl she worked with home to our place once. But again the age thing with me freaked her out too much and she didn’t go through with it.

    Looking at your other question above. I don’t think online is out either. The 2nd girl we fucked was off Tinder. We put up a joint profile and said “Couple looking for a girl”. We got lots of matches and my GF was talking to heaps of girls on it. But we only ever got one. That girl was like. I’ve always wanted to try it so it was safe for her to come do it with us and no one else knew.

    But I think by far the best is if you have a hot girl that other girls are going to be attracted to and let her to most of the initial leg work. Girls respond better to other girls initially. Don’t be too out there. Be vague about whats really going on. Sneak up on them a bit and make sure its in a context where others like friends etc can’t fuck it up.

    We have found the club here that is sort of gay but a lot other straight people go to is the best place. People who go there are more open and less uptight and status orientated etc. Only problem is you end up getting a lot of gay chicks who are super keen on my GF but have no interest in me.

    All the above is why we ended up focusing on the swinging more. Its just so much easier to hook up with really hot girls. Couple of messages, swap pictures, meet for a drink, next min you are back at ours going for it in a 4some. Rinse and repeat! 😀 Only draw back is there is another guy involved. But as I’ve already said. This bothered both of us WAY less than we thought. And really we both enjoy a 4some with a couple just as much as a 3some with a girl. There is a lot about it that is even better. I actually really enjoy watching my girl get fucked by another guy while I’m fucking his girl at the same time. And so does she. Especially when the two girls are kissing each other at the same time. We will often kiss while this is happening as well and its hard to explain. But its like the other couple aren’t even there. Its just her and I sharing a crazy sexual experience together that we both love.

  66. His GF would go out to grab some milk and come home with some hot chick she picked up at the supermarket.

    That is mighty staggering. Kudos to this guy and his bi GF! Thank you so much for your answers: I get so many good elements to try and work on now! It’s really super valuable, lots of details are actionable. I will answer more thoroughly each point. I think it can be valuable to a lot of other guys too 🙂 I was lost in the dark and you really just shed a lot of light here!

  67. Am I living in a parallel universe than you? You must be kidding, right?

    i’ll answer your question in a second. but first, think of it this way: if one assumes marty’s statistic of 60-80% of women being bi, why would you ask them that?

    many women love to eat until they’re stuffed, but not all of them want to think about it or put that out there as a topic of conversation.

    women often (not always, but often) communicate indirectly, with multiple channels working simultaneously. the more quickly and accurately you can translate their words and actions into their “real” meaning, the more connected she will feel to you. the reverse is also true, your words and actions have a “real” meaning to them, and if you aren’t in control of your outward messaging women will get annoyed or feel less connected.

    going back to picking up two girls for a threesome, imagine the following hypothetical-but-typical scenario, split into two communication tracks: LITERAL and REAL

    LITERAL: two young cute girls walk into a bar an hour before closing time
    REAL: they are probably cruising for sex. it’s not yet clear if they are looking for a man or a woman, though
    LITERAL: i approach them with standard chit chat. their eyes light up and they immediately open their body language towards me
    REAL: they are happy i approached them. it’s likely they are down to hook up with a guy
    LITERAL: in conversation, i put my hand on an arm or leg or something. she doesn’t flinch, instead she leans in closer to me and her eyelashes flare out
    REAL: they are likely attracted to me, and i should probably pull the trigger soon
    LITERAL: they ask me if i want to go outside for a smoke. i say “yes”
    REAL: they want to isolate me. this might also mean that i’m taking too long to move things forward and i should hurry up
    LITERAL: once outside, i ask them if they want to stop by my place for a drink. they say “sure”
    REAL: they want a threesome. call uber now

    nothing was ever verbalized, but the three of us were in complete understanding of each other the whole time. this entire process can take as little as 15-20 minutes.

    game of thrones (the TV series) deals with this concept a lot. (spoilers) observe that the men who fail to comprehend the REAL are the guys that get killed off (e.g. Eddard Stark, Little Finger, even Tyrion, the “smart” one, narrowly escaped death several times.). the men who best understand women make it through the series relatively unscathed (Bronn, Podrick).

    local culture can affect things as well. when i am in san francisco, many of the women who “flirt” with me are just trying to make their boyfriends jealous. so there is an additional layer of complexity to this.

    also, the smarter (and/or crazier) a woman is, the more complicated communication will likely be. but if you can learn to understand her, the resulting attraction can be one in a billion.

  68. I have a question… what about STDS?

    in addition to the general advice of practicing safe sex, i’m also very picky and have highly specific tastes about who i am sexually attracted to.

  69. @donnie demarco

    Awesome explanation. This why game works. It doesn’t look that different to normal interactions. But the subtle tiniest little details make all the difference.

    As I talked about above, I was going out a lot and doing a lot of approaches on VYW in bar’s etc. Most game guys will know you can do direct or indirect approaches. Generally direct is the best for most pick up situations. Which is what I was using the most. However, I watched a Love Systems video by one of the instructors that was about 45. He said if you are more than 20 years older than the girl you are targeting then you should always use indirect approach. Well I was 47 at the time so most of my targets were more than 20 years younger than me. This one piece of advice completely changed my results. It instantly doubled my success rate and it was not long after this that I picked up my current GF.

    Thank you so much for your answers

    That’s great I’m glad it all helps. 🙂

  70. Interesting side note. I was out last night with a mate and my GF joined us after a bit. Before she did I ran into my ex GF who I lived with for 2.5 years before this one. She is about 46. Tiny little pocket rocket blonde who is hot as fuck. We still get on very well and we were with a bunch of industry people that we both know. I was dancing and having a fun time with her. Both my current GF and the old one, our relationship featured a lot of dancing. Its one of my favorite things. And I’m not too bad at it.

    The reason my ex and I broke up was because even though she agreed to non-monogamy before we got serious. She went back on it once we were together and she tried everything to get me to back down. But I didn’t of course. So apart from that we get on like a house on fire. She is close to my daughters and came to my daughters 21st etc and a few other things. She is pretty cool with my new GF and has shown a lot of interest in the swinging and 3somes etc we do. She is pretty sexual as a person. Especially when she is a bit drunk she makes a lot of hints about possibly having sex with me and the new GF.

    I am so keen to do it and so is my GF. But I was a bit drunk last night and just put it on her. Of course it didn’t work and she rejected it straight away. This is a classic example of what not to do. You really need to do proper game and get girls in the right emotional and physical space if you want things like this to work. There are so many things I could have done last night to make this work. But I was just being lazy and to quick to jump into it. It never works. Girls need to be lead down the garden path to the promised land! haha 🙂

  71. He said if you are more than 20 years older than the girl you are targeting then you should always use indirect approach

    i had a similar takeaway. after doing cold approach for a while, i realized that i could generalize all of my approaches as “be positive to everyone”. so instead of thinking in terms of “picking up women”, i started viewing it as “how can i create a positive experience for this person?”.

    the great thing about this is that it applies to everything and everyone, men/women and personal/business. it’s helped me in multiple axes of life. and now when people are assholes to me, i see it as toxicity that THEY are carrying, and trying to dump on me. and i can wash that shit away all day now.

    Girls need to be lead down the garden path to the promised land!

    as the saying goes, “don’t make me think“. which leads me to another takeaway. many people who troll this blog assume it’s a “pickup artist” site. it’s not. while the details here are focused on men meeting women, the core fundamentals apply to everything: friendships, family, and even business. i no longer read this blog specifically for women advice, but i still keep coming back because i’m continuing to learn things that help my career.

  72. i had a similar takeaway. after doing cold approach for a while, i realized that i could generalize all of my approaches as “be positive to everyone”. so instead of thinking in terms of “picking up women”, i started viewing it as “how can i create a positive experience for this person?”.

    You are killing it with this. Game is even better for business than women. There is nothing that game doesn’t help with! Not sure how old you are. But if you keep focused like this you are going to do very well! 😊😊

  73. Thanks for the insight Marty! Great story and such a wonderful life you have created for yourself.

    I too have always found it easy to find girls for threesomes. On first dates I always ask “are you bi?” And proceed from there. This opens things up for future conversations. In the last 6 years, I’ve gotten over a dozen girls to partake in threesomes, it’s been amazing. Personally I enjoy more long-term relationships, so I tend to date women for a long time, and the ones who are bi tend to date other women with me for a while as well. It’s fucking fantastic. Pretty sure I’ll do this for the rest of my life.

    When you guys do these trips where you fuck a ton of new women is that the purpose of the trip? Do you just have sex 2-4 times a day? Do you use Viagra? Seems excessive but definitely fun.

  74. When you guys do these trips where you fuck a ton of new women is that the purpose of the trip? Do you just have sex 2-4 times a day? Do you use Viagra? Seems excessive but definitely fun.

    Pretty much. Its is quite excessive but we both enjoy fucking as many girls as we can find or get our hands on. Even if we did 3 4somes in one day there is still plenty of time for us to do other fun things on these trips. The type of things we like to do like, eating nice food at restaurants, drinking with friends in bars, basic sight seeing, hanging out in a nice hotel and dancing in clubs, all fits in well with the environment where we find the girls.

    But if we want a normal holiday we will go somewhere different. We may or may not try and pick up girls or hook up with some swingers on these other holidays but its not the focus so we wouldn’t go out of our way to make it happen.

    At times I can be quite a heavy drinker. If I’ve been drinking a lot then I sometimes use Viagra.

  75. Well it seems like we still have it. We were out for NYE last night and I said to the GF I really want to try hard tonight to pick up a girl. Didn’t take us to long. We ended up getting a hot young 24 yo Aussie girl to come home with us. She had never done a 3some before. But she had had sex with both males and females in the past. She was super into both of us and very bi. One of the best 3somes we’ve ever had. Think we might focus our efforts a bit more on picking up again.

    She lives very close to us as well and seems like she is open to becoming a regular FB. 🙂

Leave a Reply

To leave a comment, enter your comment below. PLEASE make sure to read the commenting rules before commenting, since failure to follow these rules means your comment may be deleted. Also please do not use the username “Anonymous” or “Anon” or any variation thereof (makes things too confusing).

Off-topic comments are allowed, but Caleb will ignore those.

Caleb responds to comments in person, but he only does so on the two most current blog articles.

Related Posts

Begin typing your search term above and press enter to search.