I’m about to discuss polyamory, but before I do, I need to clarify what it means and how it’s different from an open relationship. People tend to mix up these two terms or mash them together.

Open relationship generally means that you’re either pair-bonded to one woman and are allowed to get a little on the side (OLTR in my parlance) or it means you have a primary woman (like a wife or “main girl”) and you’re allowed to date other women provided they don’t completely override your main girl (high-end MLTR in my parlance).

Polyamory is quite different. It means you aren’t emotionally exclusive to any one person at all. You’re in full-on sexual and romantic relationships with two or more people. This is similar to MLTRs in my parlance, but not quite since with full-on polyamory you can (and usually do) have multiple girlfriends and one or more of the women have multiple boyfriends (or even husbands).

Open relationships are great, polyamory is great, pair-bonding is great, having multiple relationships is great. It’s all good, baby. As I’ve said hundreds of times, anything is less bad than long-term sexual monogamy, which doesn’t work at all. Therefore, I fully support any flawed or suboptimal (to me) non-monogamous relationship types over monogamy any day of the week. Anything that allows you to have regular sex with two or more women is less bad than being forced to only have sex with one, which is not only stupid, but anti-freedom and anti-masculine.

Now that we have that context, let me show you a little trick people use to bash polyamory. This has been done many times both inside and outside the manosphere.

Some guy will link to an article or video profiling a polyamorous threesome. The scenario is always the same: the threesome presented is comprised of an ugly Dominant and two skinny, dorky, wimpy, needy, oneitis-stricken beta males. The Dominant, sitting between her two boyfriends, will talk about how great it is to have these two slaves do whatever she wants. The two betas cheerfully nod in agreement and wax on about how wonderful she is and how lucky they are to have such an amazing girlfriend.

The guy linking to this shitshow will then declare, “See? Look at this! Look at these two pussies! Look at how needy and beta they are to this ugly bitch! This is polyamory, folks! Look good to you? See everybody? There’s the proof: POLYAMORY IS FOR BETAS! Fuck polyamory! Monogamy is the way to go! Monogamy is for good, honest, Christian Alpha Male badasses like us!”

He many even continue, giving the usual right-wing Guy-Disney advice about how you need to traditionally monogamously marry some young Christian girl in her early twenties who hasn’t fucked too many guys yet and then boss her around for the rest of her life like the big, strong, Christian Alpha you wish you were (despite the fact that men doing this suffer a 76%+ divorce rate just like anyone else who gets traditionally married these days).

The problem with this tactic is obvious. Would any of my readers even consider a polyamorous relationship where you only dated one girl and she dated other men? Hundreds of thousands of men read my content; I doubt I could find one of them who would think this is a good idea and recommend it to others. Being in such a relationship would be the literal opposite of being an Alpha Male 2.0.

I just said above that any relationship that allows you to have regular sex with two or more women is less bad than only having sex with one. These beta males in this horrific beta male version of polyamory are only having sex with one woman. They’re blowing the entire point of non-monogamy. They’re doing that because, of course, they’re betas.

People who point at this beta male version of polyamory as the example of all polyamory or all non-monogamy are liars. This kind of relationship is literally the opposite of how I live and the opposite of what I recommend.

Unlike monogamy, non-monogamy is a big umbrella that encompasses many different types of relationships, all of which I describe in my books but only certain ones I think are a good idea for men. For example, I think FB, MLTR and OLTR are fantastic. I think swinging isn’t that great but can work for certain people. I think beta male polyamory (described above) is disgusting and destructive. All of these things are technically non-monogamy but many of these things are so radically different they could be considered opposites. Indeed, my sex life is as diametrically opposite of beta male polyamory as you can get and has been for almost 14 years now.

Am I against beta male polyamory? For me and you, yes. But not for betas. As I’ve said many times, beta males are fucked no matter what they do. I know, because I used to be one. Monogamy/polyamory/open relationships/dating/single/alone; ALL of these situations are going to suck for you if you’re a beta. It’s part of being a beta. That’s why you betas should put in a few years and upgrade yourselves to Alpha Male 2.0 so you can start living the good life and actually be long-term happy. I did a long time ago and it was literally the best decision of my entire life.

The problem with this version of beta male polyamory on display isn’t non-monogamy, it’s beta males. As usual, the beta males fuck all this up for the rest of us. As Western civilization continues to collapse and monogamy becomes less popular, more people are going to assume non-monogamous lifestyles, which is good. The problem is most of these men are going to be betas since most modern-day Western men (around 75%) are betas already. Worse, beta males are a growing demographic. With every generation starting with the Millennials then Generation Z and the ones after that, you’re going to see less Alphas and more betas.

Less monogamy + more betas = a lot of really fucked-up, woman-centric, non-monogamous relationships where the women are going to be in charge.

Is this bad? For betas, yes (but they’re fucked anyway). For society, it’s very bad (but Western civilization is also fucked anyway). But for you and me? No. This is fucking great for us! The more men getting sucked up into polyamorous relationships that include multiple men but just one woman, the less competition we Alpha Males have. That includes not only Alpha Male 2.0s but also my more enterprising Alpha Male 1.0 brothers.

Every time I see one of these beta male polyamory people profiled, I wince in disgust but then I smile and rub my hands together evilly like a James Bond villain. Let all these betas get taken out of the dating pool by below-average-looking Dominant women while I move in on the hot women who have less betas to kiss their asses or take them out on overpriced dinner dates. Win.

The next time you see anyone pointing at beta male polyamory as the standard for non-monogamy realize A) how incorrect that is; B) how good it actually is… for us.

70 Comments on “Beta Male Polyamory

  1. I know a polyamorous trio (same V configuration) of a dominant woman and 2 men. They have one daughter (maybe another kid now). Except those men have sex with many other women too. They even are quite high in the polyamorous microcosm: they tend to be attractive to new women in polyamorous groups as they are seen as “successfully living the lifestyle”. They also participate and organise orgies and BDSM activities.

    I honestly don’t know how to place them on the beta/alpha scale. On one hand their wife is tall, big and dominant and I cringe when I see her with them: I wanna say beta males. But on the other hand, they both have a solid and plentiful rotation of young cuties: I wanna say alpha. Plus their high status in various social circles.

    They are even featured in the mainstream medias.

    Any thoughts?

  2. While I’ve never been a swinger myself, in the last couple years I have participated in many gangbangs organized by/for swinger couples. They’ve always been really fun. The women are great and really enjoy the gangbang sex, and the couples seem pretty solid and down-to-earth. Although in the gangbang context the focus was the woman, it is my understanding that the man of the couple also gets to fuck other women in other swingers’ events. All of this has opened my mind to this lifestyle and I think it would be cool to be in a relationship with a woman this open about sex in the future.

    i know you’re not that much into it BlackDragon, but have you ever tried swinging and gangbangs with your women? have you met many swingers? What’s your general impression of them?

  3. I am talking about the black woman seating on the couch with her 2 men.

    https://youtu.be/PrG4kqVPtoY?t=1m39s

    They live together and are somehow married. This was before their daughter. I feel the appearance of each guy has improved, the one with the white shirt now goes for weird styles mixing genders. The other guy has better haircut and really feels quite masculine and confident, he is the biological father of their daughter. I don’t know if they have more kids now.

    They really look super beta in this video.

    I kinda feel like they are using this primary trio relationship as a platform which attracts other women in their life, and also her too attracting other men.

    I also feel like both men have individually somehow improved/’alpha up’ since this video was shot. But when seen only with their wife out of any other context, the situation still feels super beta to me.

  4. I honestly don’t know how to place them on the beta/alpha scale. On one hand their wife is tall, big and dominant and I cringe when I see her with them: I wanna say beta males. But on the other hand, they both have a solid and plentiful rotation of young cuties: I wanna say alpha. Plus their high status in various social circles.

    If they’re actually having sex with young cuties on a regular basis (and not just saying they are or pretending they are) it’s unlikely they’re betas (though it’s certainly possible). That’s the big question: if they really are having sex with other (hot) women on the side.

    i know you’re not that much into it BlackDragon, but have you ever tried swinging and gangbangs with your women?

    No. I have no interest. I don’t even like threesomes (though I’ve done my share). I like to really focus in on one woman when I have sex. But that’s me.

    have you met many swingers?

    Tons. I live near Portland where it’s a thing.

    What’s your general impression of them?

    That they’re extremely happy and that they really, really like swinging. That’s why I say that swinging is certainly an option for some men; I know too many men who really like it to discount it (even though a swinger is not going to be quite as free as a guy in an MLTR or OLTR).

  5. Caleb,

    You are 100% right in that the younger generations (millennials and below) are becoming much more beta. In fact, they are quite proud of this in many cases.  I know many younger guys through the music scene and they will straight up admit they are “soy boys” or whatever and think it’s great.  They’ve been raised to think any sort of masculinity is bad in of itself.  All I can do is shake my head and laugh…the benefit to guys like us is the younger women will be looking for Alpha type guys as we become more rare.

    Also true that the media portrays non-monogamy in this multiple beta with homely dominant woman trope. Any time I see a documentary on non-monogamy, this is what they show-I want to say there was one recently with that Lisa Ling woman on CNN. It’s promising to see non-monogamy being discussed in the mainstream more but this flavor of it is pretty sad.

  6. Esther Perel talks about the eventually sexual boredom a lot but seems to stop short with the solution, which we all know in these parts.

  7. You are 100% right in that the younger generations (millennials and below) are becoming much more beta. In fact, they are quite proud of this in many cases.

    I know. I’ve had many of them at this very blog bragging about it.

    I know many younger guys through the music scene and they will straight up admit they are “soy boys” or whatever and think it’s great. They’ve been raised to think any sort of masculinity is bad in of itself.

    Cool. More babes for me.

    Esther Perel talks about the eventually sexual boredom a lot but seems to stop short with the solution, which we all know in these parts.

    Yes and I’ve discussed this several times before, how sexual / relationship researchers and experts know that the only real long-term answer to marriage and other long-term relationships is some sort of controlled non-monogamy but they can’t come out and say it because A) their own spouses will get mad at them and B) they don’t want the social backlash.

    It is amazing to me that, as hard left-wing as the USA becomes, extreme right-wing Puritanism still has a near-complete stronghold on how people view relationships, including with people on the left!

    Hilarious.

  8. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but these pairings are still the norm in the world of nonmonogamy, the world you steadfastly argue is the only practical one. Most men are Beta by default, you know this. As such, they will comprise the majority in any type of man-woman relationship. Being an Alpha takes much more effort, usually, and society relies on this equilibrium of breeders/leaders to workers and footsoldiers.

  9. Well…the vast majority of married/taken women in my social circle I know have or are cheating on their men. And I really don’t think their men are cheating to the same extent.

    One gal travels a lot for work and her husband has agreed that she can bang whoever she wants while she’s away…but he’s not allowed to have sex with others and he’s OK with that!!

    So really this type of polyamory is already being practiced, we are just starting to see it verbalized and accepted.

    It’s funny that since women know I’m not monogamous they will confess this stuff pretty openly. (Often it’s them expressing interest too haha)

     

  10. CCMidwest what you described is referred to as open hypergamy in manosphere circles. Basically, women get to have their cake and eat it too! Which is great, if you’re Alpha. Not so much the poor Betas lol. It’s also long-term unsustainable, but it is here to stay in the West at least for the remainder of anyone’s lifetime who can read this.

  11. The problem is most of these men are going to be betas since most modern-day Western men (around 75%) are betas already. Worse, beta males are a growing demographic. With every generation starting with the Millennials then Generation Z and the ones after that, you’re going to see less Alphas and more betas.

    When you say beta males are a growing demographic, are you saying the 75% figure you gave is increasing or only the raw number with the 75% figure being constant? If the former, what percentage do you think this trend will level off at (i.e. eventually 85% of Western men will be beta males)?

  12. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but these pairings are still the norm in the world of nonmonogamy, the world you steadfastly argue is the only practical one.

    Incorrect. Show me the data that indicates beta male polyamory represents more than 50% of all non-monogamous relationships (since that what “norm” means).

    Later it may be the norm since it’s growing, as I stated in the article, yes. But not right now.

    Well…the vast majority of married/taken women in my social circle I know have or are cheating on their men. And I really don’t think their men are cheating to the same extent.

    Based on the data I’ve seen, the indication (as well as my anecdotal experience) is that men cheat more often when the relationship is newer and women cheat more often when the relationship is older. So if you’re talking about women who have been married to their husbands for more than 8-10+ years or so, then yeah, you’re probably right. But if you switch things around and only look at married couples within the 3-year mark (or newer boyfriend/girlfriend couples), then it’s the men who are cheating.

    And if both the woman and man are cheating, then “who cheats more” is completely irrelevant in my view. (Men tend to get lazier in relationships than women do; doesn’t necessarily mean they’re more pussy or beta.)

    One gal travels a lot for work and her husband has agreed that she can bang whoever she wants while she’s away…but he’s not allowed to have sex with others and he’s OK with that!!

    So really this type of polyamory is already being practiced, we are just starting to see it verbalized and accepted.

    Very true. I’ve had sugar baby FBs who had boyfriends and they were allowed to have sex with me but the boyfriends weren’t allowed to have sex with anyone but her, and the boyfriends agreed to all of this. However! Most of these boyfriends were cheating on her anyway, making all of this moot as I already stated above. So it’s not quite as cut and dried as you think.

    A guy who agrees to let his girlfriend/wife fuck other men when he can’t and actually goes through with it is a beta male, and yes, that’s going to become more and more popular. However, a guy who agrees to let his girlfriend/wife fuck other men when he can’t and then immediately cheats on her anyway is more likely a crafty or lazy Alpha Male 1.0.

    It’s funny that since women know I’m not monogamous they will confess this stuff pretty openly.

    Oh yeah, me too. Women have told me the craziest things they’ve done in relationships with other men; things they won’t tell anyone else.

    (I wonder what it would be like to live such a lie. Honestly. Even during the brief time in my life I was monogamous I never cheated, so I have no idea what it would feel like.)

  13. When you say beta males are a growing demographic, are you saying the 75% figure you gave is increasing or only the raw number with the 75% figure being constant?

    The 75% figure is increasing. In 25 years from now, that 75% figure will be higher, guaranteed.

    If the former, what percentage do you think this trend will level off at

    I have no idea since there’s no way to know that.

    (i.e. eventually 85% of Western men will be beta males)?

    Sure. Easily.

  14. I think beta male polyamory (described above) is disgusting and destructive.

    I’m proud to say that I have had the Ethical Slut on my bookshelf as long as I’ve had Bertrand Russell’s Marriage and Morals. Longer than this blog has been up, at least 10 years. I will say this. It has been hard to integrate the two, because one was written by some aging hippy slut, and the other written by a towering intellect of the 20th century.

    Neither is entirely wrong. Neither saw the whole picture. At least from a male point of view.

  15. I used Match.com for years, but as it no longer seems effective, and Tinder was voted as the best over here, I got a Tinder account (I have not paid yet, as I am not yet willing to meet anyone).

    Unfortunately, they don’t filter MtF transgenders out of the search!!  I manually exclude them, of course, but why is this even allowed?  Plus, I thought transgenders were just 0.3% of the population, but appear to be 4-5% of the ‘women’ on Tinder.  This is way above the 2% rule.

    This sort of kills my interest in meeting anyone on Tinder at all.   I am sure I am not the only man sufficiently disgusted at even this concept.   If women realized that transgenders are scaring men off wholesale, women would be mad.

    This is disgusting.  MtF trannies actually think normal men want to date them, and Tinder is indulging this, AND their numbers are non-trivial at this point.

     

     

  16. I see White Trashionalism as a major epicenter of beta male (indeed, omega male) polyamory.

    The subculture is about 99% male, and elevates white women to goddess-like levels of worship.  A White Trashionalist would probably be happy to share the same woman with six other white men.

    Hell, on Stormfront and in Heartiste’s comments before he got deplatformed, plenty of WNs openly said that, as a second choice, they would rather have sex with a white man than a black woman, since race loyalty trumps sexual orientation, and producing no baby is better than producing a mulatto baby.

  17. A woman was sharing her fantasy with me about an F-M-M threesome. I’ve been thinking about it. I’d be happy  to do it for her as a favor. Naturally, no male to male contact. It doesn’t strike me as inherently beta-ish, so long as I’ve got other things happening with other women. She’s definitely not a Dom type. Actually, it’s been a delight to see her grow and progress over the couple of years I’ve known her. At first, she was probably into the idea of monogamy, but she was cool with the fact that I wasn’t. Then she started having a few adventures of her own, which she was a bit shy about. Just recently, she’s started talking about them quite openly, and I’m happy to listen. She mentioned this fantasy, so I suggested she propose a candidate, although it hasn’t happened yet.

    I think F-M-M is fine, so long as it’s not a rut you get stuck in. I think it’s quite a turn on seeing a woman get more sexually adventurous.

  18. Sex researchers that recommend open relationships

    they call it outsourcing

    would be in the book coming together by harel and hirschman

  19. Hi Caleb,

    If you don’t mind, I have an idea for an article you could wrote, oneon of the hypotheticals, which you seem to have written a few, and they were always fun:

    “What if every man in the world was Alpha Male 2.0?”

  20. @MC

    I wonder if threesomes M-F-Fs are for betas…as I see them more for alphas.

    Thoughts ?

    Yeah that’s homo shit, duh.

    @BD

    Incorrect. Show me the data that indicates beta male polyamory represents more than 50% of all non-monogamous relationships (since that what “norm” means).

    I actually don’t know that, and you may well be correct. Was just assuming, based on the law of averages. I’d be willing to admit right off the bat, that nonmono is disproportionately an Alpha domain, since those are the types that would be naturally attracted there anyway. As compared to the ratio overall and especially in our present circumstance.

    @Freevoulous

    “What if every man in the world was Alpha Male 2.0?”

    We would be getting shit done! Flying cars, jetpacks, initial Mars colonization. But I mean, that’s my hope, what with all the freed up time and money for R&D.

  21. It is very interesting and fitting the picture you have chosen for this article. Those guys look so beta, at least on this picture.

    Something I have noticed in the recent year or so which has probably been a thing for the past several years is the explosion of what I refer to as “the typical bearded beta”. There seem to be a huge trend going on in the west with beta males growing beards in the last few years. It almost seems that the more of a beard the guy has the more beta he is as if to mask / compensate the reality. The typical image looks like this: a quiet low energy beta male with a beard shuffling along as he walks, often looking down on the ground or listening to music, sometimes following his dominant woman. I also see it nowadays a lot in television and movies. The low energy bearded boy with a big beard quietly explaining something to his woman.

    Anyone else noticed this as of late? It seems to have exploded with the popularity of the hipster movement but I find it comical.

    A woman was sharing her fantasy with me about an F-M-M threesome. I’ve been thinking about it. I’d be happy to do it for her as a favor.

    Recently one woman asked me about male male female threesome and after some more discussion and thought I told her if she can add some more women and make it into an orgy and I might consider it.

    Honestly, I am more with BD on this one, I guess I prefer to focus on one woman at a time but if a girl wants to bring a friend or pick someone up together to “enjoy her as a snack together” I am fine with it.

    Plus, I thought transgenders were just 0.3% of the population, but appear to be 4-5% of the ‘women’ on Tinder.

    Must be a thing in the city where you live and or the age range you search. The rest of us don’t have this problem. But like previously discussed the suitability of websites and apps are very country and city dependent so probably in your location something else is a better option. I have been using Tinder for years and swiped to many many thousands of women and came across maybe 2 trans. Her being fat despite her pictures showing her skinny (because they are old pictures) is a much bigger and more realistic concern.

    It’s funny that since women know I’m not monogamous they will confess this stuff pretty openly.

    Oh yeah, me too. Women have told me the craziest things they’ve done in relationships with other men; things they won’t tell anyone else.

    I have the same experience.

    xcept those men have sex with many other women too. They even are quite high in the polyamorous microcosm: they tend to be attractive to new women in polyamorous groups as they are seen as “successfully living the lifestyle”. They also participate and organise orgies

    How do you find such groups and activities? I know there are sex parties in some clubs where you have to pay (a lot) for entrance which does not really attract me, but other than that I have no idea.

  22. initial Mars colonization

    That is a nice dream but if it happens it will always be “indoors”. Open living and plantlike outside on Mars surface is near impossible. The planet does not have enough gravity to support water vapor, nor does it have strong enough magnetosphere to protect from radiation. Venus is actually much easier – will just have to be in flying cities at high altitudes and also indoors, but you would be able to take a stroll outside with a breathing mask. At high altitudes on Venus temperatures and air pressure are same as on Earth, gravity is almost the same and so is radiation. In some distant future you could probably even remove and replace all of Venus atmosphere to make it livable at ground surface, but gravity and radiation is hard to deal with. Venus is a much better fit than Mars.

  23. Something I have noticed in the recent year or so which has probably been a thing for the past several years is the explosion of what I refer to as “the typical bearded beta”

    Well, the hipster movement in general seems to have reached “peak beard.” In fact, it probably passed that point a year or two ago, when any male hipster who could reasonably grow a beard probably had done so. But I dont think beards are a solid indicator of a beta – it’s more that most men are betas, so most men with beards are also betas. No strong correlation.

    Maybe I’m sensitive on the issue. I’m rather proud of mine.

  24. A woman was sharing her fantasy with me about an F-M-M threesome. I’ve been thinking about it. I’d be happy  to do it for her as a favor. Naturally, no male to male contact. It doesn’t strike me as inherently beta-ish, so long as I’ve got other things happening with other women. She’s definitely not a Dom type. Actually, it’s been a delight to see her grow and progress over the couple of years I’ve known her. At first, she was probably into the idea of monogamy, but she was cool with the fact that I wasn’t. Then she started having a few adventures of her own, which she was a bit shy about. Just recently, she’s started talking about them quite openly, and I’m happy to listen. She mentioned this fantasy, so I suggested she propose a candidate, although it hasn’t happened yet.

    I think F-M-M is fine, so long as it’s not a rut you get stuck in. I think it’s quite a turn on seeing a woman get more sexually adventurous.

    I agree with you. There’s nothing beta about having a MMF threesome with your woman as long as you’re having fun too. Plus it’s a turn on for me to see a woman being a slut. This wouldn’t exclude having a FFM threesome also of course.

  25. How do you find such groups and activities? I know there are sex parties in some clubs where you have to pay (a lot) for entrance which does not really attract me, but other than that I have no idea.

    My personal experience was casually coming across the website of a group of friends who organized gangbangs. They posted pics and some info on the website. I wrote to them and sent a couple of pictures and that’s how I began being invited to numerous of their gangbangs for the women of swingers couples.
    Once, a gangbang was organized in a BDSM club by the owner of the club. I had never been in such a club before. Basically it was a normal bar with a “play room” on the side. They organize weekly orgies and sex parties where members of the club can go. I don’t know how much membership costs but I don’t think it was a lot.
    Anyways this is in Italy where I live.
    My advice to you would be to sign up to swingers websites with your woman. After meeting some couples you will develop a reputation in that world and be invited to orgies and stuff.

  26. Maybe I’m sensitive on the issue. I’m rather proud of mine.

    Just to be clear, I have nothing against beards. Nor do I say beard means beta. I am saying I saw that a lot of betas grow beards as of late which something that hasn’t been the case in the past. But perhaps it is indeed just a coincidence since the hipster movement popularized beards and most men are betas…

    My advice to you would be to sign up to swingers websites with your woman. After meeting some couples you will develop a reputation in that world and be invited to orgies and stuff.

    That is not what I want and it does not interest me. I am interested in being part of a poly community where people know you are non monogamous and hit you up for that reason, and, I am marginally interested in orgies where I go alone and just fuck some random hot women there.

  27. Just to be clear, I have nothing against beards.

    Hehe. No harm done.

    Back on topic, back when I was about 20, which is a very long time ago now, I did have a bit of an experience with a woman who was definitely a dominant, who had a long time, very beta, fairly asexual boyfriend. She had a serial history of picking up bad boys who were usually in bad shape, perhaps homeless, a few junkies, that kind of thing. And at the time, for various reasons, I fell into her target category. So I was staying in their house, and she’d leave him in the master bedroom and join me in the spare bedroom for sex all night, and this went on for a few weeks. The guy was certainly … a nice guy. I hung out with him a bit, chatted, he seemed to tolerate me without too much trouble, although the woman told me he was in a bit of pain about it all.

    Honestly, there seemed to be quite a bit of psychological sadism in it on her part. On more than one occasion, she made comments about his poor sexual performance compared to mine, not just in front of me and him, but also a few other friends, which even made me wince. In private, on various occasions, she rather pityingly told me that the guy had made a few attempts to have some relationships on the side, all of which had failed to really go anywhere. She found it hard to disguise her delight in that.

    Oddly enough, I ran into her again almost 15 or 20 years later. She was still with the same guy! And she had some other guy in tow — a fairly far gone, no good junkie, I gathered. So they’d obviously stayed in that pattern for decades, eventually getting married. I suppose they should be congratulated.

    One of the most extreme betas I’ve ever seen in my life. But I guess there are others like him — them — out there. Hope they are both happy.

  28. That is not what I want and it does not interest me. I am interested in being part of a poly community where people know you are non monogamous and hit you up for that reason, and, I am marginally interested in orgies where I go alone and just fuck some random hot women there.

    Yes but you know, you gotta start somewhere. Once you get to know people in that kind of environment and get introduced to different inner circles and such, you can pursue experiences and niches that interest you more. The swingers thing could be useful to get your foot in the door.

  29. One of the most extreme betas I’ve ever seen in my life. But I guess there are others like him — them — out there. Hope they are both happy.

    This is quite extreme yes but it is basically because he is lazy to try to do something about the situation and or perhaps thinks this is the best he can ever get.

    The swingers thing could be useful to get your foot in the door.

    Yes that has crossed my mind but the question is whether its realistic to get in without bringing a girl along. It’s not really an option because the women I date are not open to such stuff and nor do I wanna swing them. But I might be willing to play with a couple or attend an orgy to “get my foot in the door.” Is that realistic? I have to say I don’t care that much but it would be nice to be part of some community where you can get your fix regularly so I have some sexual variety / back up without needing to go through the usual pick up / dating etc.

  30. If you don’t mind, I have an idea for an article you could wrote

    No. It would open a can of worms I’d rather not spend my time in.

    There seem to be a huge trend going on in the west with beta males growing beards in the last few years.

    Yep. True.

    But I dont think beards are a solid indicator of a beta

    Correct; they’re not. But the trend of beta bearded guys is accurate.

    I just think growing out a beard (and not taking care of it) is just easier than bothering to shave every day, and betas are leaning in the direction of less work.

  31. Where have I heard this before?

     

    https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2018/05/20/open-or-poly-relationships-from-the-superior-position-or-inferior-position/

    https://theredquest.wordpress.com/2019/01/03/what-kind-of-guy-is-willing-to-appear-in-these-articles/

    Oh right.

    >> Hundreds of thousands of men read my content

    Over what time scale? At what retention level? How long is the average visit?

    Over enough years, sure. Clicks are not the same thing as reads.

  32. If they’re actually having sex with young cuties on a regular basis (and not just saying they are or pretending they are) it’s unlikely they’re betas (though it’s certainly possible). That’s the big question: if they really are having sex with other (hot) women on the side.

    Hot, I don’t know. Cute women, yes for sure: I have seen them in person. As for their wife, I really don’t find her attractive at all, personally ugly. I also know that they used to date at least 2 other ugly women, but they stopped as they got more busy with better looking women. But for some reason they stayed with their now ‘wife’ and even committed to a deeper level with moving in together, marriage ceremony, and then a daughter. I don’t think they are legally married though, and I don’t know about their finances, entanglement or not. Maybe they have a civil union, I know they reasearched several inovative legal and financial statuses.

    .

  33. Just watched a YouTube clip from an Australian tv show called the feed about Japan’s declining  birthrate  they said a local survey that 50 percent of Japanese under 35 claim to be virgins

    it looks like an entire country of beta males! The Japanese women interviewed appear to be independent types with zero interest in beta males for dating

    the country had talked about limiting working hours to less than 100 hours per month so people might be able to think about having kids

    they talked to a therapist who calls herself the love queen

    what could be done to help the falling birthrate

    her priceless answer was one excellent man could have children with several

    quality women!! Polygamy

    food for thought

     

  34. The whole idea of she can fuck anyone too is what gets me.  My FB‘s sure, they date around and fuck other guys sometimes, but mainly I’m their consistent lay.  But I had to hard next my high-end MLTR recently because I couldn’t stand the fact that she basically downgraded me by moving in a Lesbian and spending all her time with her.  We had a strong bond before that and while I tried keeping her as FB, I couldn’t do it.  I had become her side piece and the tables turned and I seriously wasn’t feeling happy.  Much better now that I nexted her, but I’m not sure how to remedy this if it happens again.  I guess I just next them at that point.  It feels outcome dependent to me, but she was MLTR in my mind and she turned me in to FB and it just didn’t work for me.

    I guess the question is how to handle when an MLTR or OLTR downgrades you.  You talk about downgrading them, but this particular woman chose to downgrade me rather than LSNFTE and I couldn’t be happy with her after that.

  35. A woman was sharing her fantasy with me about an F-M-M threesome.

    This is a VERY common female fantasy often unfulfilled because there are no male takers. “This is gay.” “Cuck, lol.” Bla, bla bla. And the same guys won’t mind having FMF threesome any time. The amount of hypocrisy is staggering.

  36. Correct; they’re not. But the trend of beta bearded guys is accurate.

    I just think growing out a beard (and not taking care of it) is just easier than bothering to shave every day, and betas are leaning in the direction of less work.

    I’m glad you added the “and not taking care of it” qualifier. I have a beard because I look like I’m way too nice without it, and I like that I can use it to shape my face and strengthen my jawline. I saw a meme recently that suggested beards are like push-up bras for men, and in my case, I’m not sure that’s wrong, but between shaving my neckline daily, trimming weekly and coloring every 2-3 weeks, it would probably be less work to just shave every day.

    On a related note, a 42-year-old woman on my Facebook recently posted that grey in beards is sexy and that men should leave it alone. My first thought was “of course she’d say that. Men dye their beards to be more attractive to younger women, and older women don’t want men their age to be attractive to younger women.” Or she just likes grey beards, but I suspect there’s more to it than that.

    But getting back on topic…I remember seeing part of a show on TV about this kind of polyamory (two guys, one woman, and baby which the guy who wasn’t the dad was babysitting while the woman went on a date with the other guy who was the dad). The whole thing made feel nauseous. But now that realize how good that is for us, I’ll indulge in a little healthy schadenfreude next time. 😁

     

  37. of course she’d say that. Men dye their beards to be more attractive to younger women, and older women don’t want men their age to be attractive to younger women.

    If she is 42, then men her age will not want to date women that age no matter what, unless she is Katrhin Wynnick or similar. She needs to look for men above 60 (assuming she is after high quality men, if not she can probably easily get men her age and even younger, but I suspect that those are not the men she wants…)

    It may be that she genuinely likes that but if you are 40 and wanna date women (much) younger than your age (obviously) then it is irrelevant what such women like.

    I have a beard because I look like I’m way too nice without it, and I like that I can use it to shape my face and strengthen my jawline.

    I look very young when clean shaves – which can be a plus with very young women. In fact I can convincingly hide my age to the point I can get younger women who arent into older men.

    Generally though I look also better with a bit of a beard but mine isnt thick enough to grow it long enough to strenghten my jawline which is pitty because that would help, but most of the year I do keep some beard.

    I’m not sure that’s wrong, but between shaving my neckline daily, trimming weekly and coloring every 2-3 weeks, it would probably be less work to just shave every day.

    Yes shaving daily is definitelly less work if you also have to colour it. If you shave daily it only takes a few moments and becomes a habbit that you can do without thinking or paying attention. Trimming nicely is way more work if you dont do it every day already without even thinking about using a dye. Of course, shaving clean from a few days beard once every few days is the most work by far, so in terms of work and effort everything is better than that.

  38. But I had to hard next my high-end MLTR recently because I couldn’t stand the fact that she basically downgraded me by moving in a Lesbian and spending all her time with her. We had a strong bond before that and while I tried keeping her as FB, I couldn’t do it. I had become her side piece and the tables turned and I seriously wasn’t feeling happy.

    I would LOVE that. I don’t really have any interest in OLTR or being the primary partner of anyone. As for me moving in with a woman, that is a nightmare. Kids: I’d rather die.

  39. I would LOVE that. I don’t really have any interest in OLTR or being the primary partner of anyone. As for me moving in with a woman, that is a nightmare. Kids: I’d rather die.

    I have a WD who is living with a fiancee.  I get why you’d love that normally, but not when your MLTR downgrades you.  It feels like getting cucked or something and I had to let her go.  As a high end MLTR she was my favorite girl who I spent the most amount of time with (Fri/Sat typically)  She met all my girlfriend-type needs, then suddenly branches to a lesbian and starts treating me like a side piece.  It’s like having a close friend stop hanging out with you and only use you for what they need.

    And I’m fine with being used for sex by a woman in another relationship, but in this particular circumstance, I was only happy with this woman as an MLTR.  I did not choose to make her FB, she made that decision for me, and that made me unappy.  It seems outcome dependent, but I hard nexted her and I feel better now.  Being downgraded by a woman had me feeling like a chump or a cuck or a loser.  I just deserve better from someone I spent 3 years with as MLTR.  If all she’d ever been was FB or if I had made the choice myself to downgrade her, it might have been fine, but the coldness of her compared to what I was used to, made me unhappy.  That’s the only way I can explain it.  I’m not sure if I did the right thing Alpha 2.0-wise but I did what made me happiest.

  40. Why my comment didn’t post?

    Read the paragraph at the bottom of the page here.

    My post from 2 days ago still hasn’t shown up.

  41. I know what BD is talking about.

    He is more referring to the Anti-Masculinity type guys who essentially operate as women.

    I wouldn’t call a guy Beta if he’s a guy who likes Dominant Women and submissive in the BDSM sense or whatever. If they fuck other chicks than it’s just another fetish. Nothing beta about that at all.

    Let’s be real though any more serious relationship a chick has a bit more sway in who can fuck if were talking poly.

  42. Monogamy is for good, honest, Christian Alpha Male badasses like us!

    Don’t know why, but that made me laugh for like 3 minutes straight.

    It is amazing to me that, as hard left-wing as the USA becomes, extreme right-wing Puritanism still has a near-complete stronghold on how people view relationships, including with people on the left!

    Hilarious.

    Unsettling, too, since it practically creates the kind of pressure that leads one to get one itis, commit sexual assault, etc.

    Look, as cringy as some of these women’s movements are, they have a point: The more sex-positive we become the less sexual assault there will be. Well, at least when it comes to dudes attacking chicks. Chicks can attack dudes and still get away with it and that’s pretty much what most of these women’s movements want although they’ll never admit it. But even that is better than sex-negative puritanism where it is perfectly fine to “own” someone by way of TMM.

  43. Just watched a YouTube clip from an Australian tv show called the feed about Japan’s declining  birthrate  they said a local survey that 50 percent of Japanese under 35 claim to be virgins

    Keep in mind that all the worst porn on the planet is produced in Japan lol. Pretty sure the Japanese also consume the most porn on the planet.

    I don’t mind porn and fapping, but Japan is out of control.

  44. Look, as cringy as some of these women’s movements are, they have a point: The more sex-positive we become the less sexual assault there will be

    If you’ve got phone numbers for some of these sex positive feminists, shoot them my way. I love those women. But they seem to be around 10% or less of the activist population. I remember one of them saying that she felt really uncomfortable in the feminist movement exactly because of how puritanical and moralistic it was. The ideal relationship was a monogamous lesbian couple, although a monogamous relationship between a dominant woman and beta male was also (barely) acceptable. The woman in question got endless grief because she was a poly bisexual. Nothing was worse than bisexuality, she said. It showed that you could have sex with other women, but out of sheer perversity, you also continued to have sex with men.

  45. Look, as cringy as some of these women’s movements are, they have a point: The more sex-positive we become the less sexual assault there will be. Well, at least when it comes to dudes attacking chicks. Chicks can attack dudes and still get away with it and that’s pretty much what most of these women’s movements want although they’ll never admit it. But even that is better than sex-negative puritanism where it is perfectly fine to “own” someone by way of TMM.

    Unfortunately not true. Because even in a very sex-positive environment women tend to fuck the top men and betas are left with little to no access to pussy and frustrated. If women were sluts with everyone indiscriminately there would be no need for blogs like this.

  46. Unfortunately not true. Because even in a very sex-positive environment women tend to fuck the top men and betas are left with little to no access to pussy and frustrated. If women were sluts with everyone indiscriminately there would be no need for blogs like this.

    That is partially correct. It is completely true that the more traditional the society is the more everyone gets to have someone and are all coupled up, for both men and women of all kinds. However that does not mean they are all having sex all the time. The betas will still not be getting laid even inside the marriage or whatever. I also see large numbers of very clearly very beta males having long term girlfriends and getting new ones no problem in progressive societies, however we may speculate about how much sex they are getting and how he gets treated by his wife or girlfriend. In traditional societies women still do that but with cheating and in progressive they do that openly until they get bored and want a “real relationship (tredemark and copyright and stuff)” so they get the beta but it doesn’t mean he gets sex from her every day. In fact I remember talking to one high sex drive woman who has dated some betas and she told me they were surprise and uncomfortable when she told them she wants sex every day – they thought it was too much! I even women who have boyfriends where the boyfriend does not want to have sex very often (once a week max), of course the woman cheats.

  47. What is true though is that the arrangement where large percentage of men don’t have access to sex easily is a huge societal problem and it is very bad for social cohesion and stability of the society long term.

    Unsettling, too, since it practically creates the kind of pressure that leads one to get one itis, commit sexual assault, etc.

    In traditional marriage the guy who would do such stuff would just force his wife in the past but now in many places the feminists made that illegal and even on the same level as a normal sexual assault (a ridiculous concept) which creates new sexual assaults especially when the woman thinks she can also say no to him and also that its monogamous. Good luck with that. Let’s just watch together the society to burn with more sexual assaults every day and or more mass murders. The women themselves get hurt by it big time too because they arent having theyre dream disney marriage even though they are already panicking and hitting 30s and beyond and they also arent getting banged all the time because that would be slutty! or she did that before but now she wants to be a nice girl! and it leads to a disorder for them. I have seen many women who were nice and balanced and mentally healthy till about late 20s when they started to get these ideas about sex and relationships and go months without because “thats not what they want anymore” or because “they aren’t emotionally ready after last break up” (probably one of the most stupid things chicks ever say) and now they have mental problems because of the lack of sex coupled with the self created demands of themselves. On top of that they are actively contributing to problems in society. This is the reason because in progressive society there are many women who aren’t available for long periods of time. Of course that cannot ever work. It is something that has never been done before also. You would either have that everyone bangs everyone always causally or you have everyone coupled up since young age. If you are an alpha and doing non monogamy it works because you can catch enough women to compensate for this. But the society is completely screwed.

  48. I even women who have boyfriends where the boyfriend does not want to have sex very often (once a week max), of course the woman cheats.

    I’ve occasionally asked married women how often they have srx with their husbands. Responses range from “Never” to “Ctappy sex once every month or so “

  49. Seriously though, who has time for this shit? Two chicks in the rotation is already a lot of time and energy spent

  50. “Am I against beta male polyamory? For me and you, yes. But not for betas.”

    Dude, I was literally rolling on the floor laughing when I read this.  Thank you for this article.

  51. I’ve occasionally asked married women how often they have srx with their husbands. Responses range from “Never” to “Ctappy sex once every month or so “

    I never understood this stuff. What is the point of being married to a woman if you aren’t going to have sex all the time / whenever you want? Very strange to me, but I guess people do all kinds of strange things today.

    Seriously though, who has time for this shit? Two chicks in the rotation is already a lot of time and energy spent

    This depends on how much time and energy you spend on them. Nobody says you have to see both of them 3-4 times a week and have dinners/sleepovers with them every single time. Actually, sleepovers are very time efficient: you meet in the evening, maybe have a drink, go to sleep and then you can (again) bang her in the morning before you go about your day. Can easily have time for 7 different women every week this way.

  52. I never understood this stuff. What is the point of being married to a woman if you aren’t going to have sex all the time / whenever you want? Very strange to me, but I guess people do all kinds of strange things today.

    Well, I’ve done traditional non-monogomous cheating marriage myself, for ten years, ending about 11 years ago. We had really outstanding sex for about three years and then good for about another four. The last three years were totally grim, except in short patches of make up sex when there was some major conflict about infidelity. It’s a boiled frog thing. It happens slowly, without you really noticing how bad it’s got.

    Looking back, I think it was actually a miracle that we had good sex for seven years, rather than bad sex for three. At this stage, I certainly dont blame the woman, it was just the dynamics of the situation.

  53. I love those women. But they seem to be around 10% or less of the activist population. I remember one of them saying that she felt really uncomfortable in the feminist movement exactly because of how puritanical and moralistic it was.

    That’s not a problem with women’s movements, but rather a problem with activism in and of itself, as any activist group for any cause break down to one thing: Ruling others with their ideals at any cost and making sure that anyone who is not their kind gets punished or eliminated effortlessly.

    “Justice” through intolerance is how collectivists, activists, and anyone else who pursues external solutions operates, no matter what “cause” it is.

    Look through history and you will see that it is a common thread among any group who is dedicated and committed to external solutions. It has been this way for literal millennia, starting with religious groups. It hasn’t changed and will not change since power over others has been an incentive in human nature for a very, very long time.

    If you’ve got phone numbers for some of these sex positive feminists, shoot them my way.

    No way, my dude. I enjoy those types of chicks too haha 😉

    Even in a very sex-positive environment women tend to fuck the top men and betas are left with little to no access to pussy and frustrated.

    That’s not a bad thing, that’s a good thing. A very good thing. Weak men don’t deserve chicks unless they are willing to improve themselves, and weak men should be punished (with lack of “access” as you say) for deciding not to improve. It is a man’s job to improve constantly. If I need to improve all the time to get more chicks in my life and chicks are allowed to say this by declaring “chads only” without being attacked for it then guess what? That’s awesome cuz now I know that all I need to do to get chicks is become what they see as a chad. Do we have that now? No we don’t. We have a lot of muddled information about what chicks think they want. Which really sucks.

    Sex-Negative environments are what allowed so many weak men to exist in the first place, and western culture has been sex-negative for literally hundreds of years. Combine this with an ever growing mommy state that is willing to hook grown dudes up with everything they need (so long as those who make more money than them foot the bill), and the result is less alpha dudes, more beta dudes, less emphasis on internal solutions and more emphasis on external solutions, etc etc etc. Not good for people who like sex.

    If women were sluts with everyone indiscriminately there would be no need for blogs like this.

    Chicks still aren’t “allowed” to be sluts with everyone indiscriminately, much less openly. And if they were, it would eliminate a lot of gray areas about what chicks find attractive in dudes, and dudes would be able to have a clear path that they know would make more chicks attracted to them.

    Again, sex-negative culture is what created a lot of this confusion and frustration…for any given gender.

    Look at LGBTs. These are some of the most sex-positive people on the planet and they know exactly what they want and talk about sex like its any other common topic.

    How come we can’t act like LGBTs when it comes to sex? lol

  54. Look at LGBTs. These are some of the most sex-positive people on the planet and they know exactly what they want and talk about sex like its any other common topic.

    I am not sure. A lot of them seem confused as hell about they’re identity. I have also met some real gays who were the most conservative guys I have ever met, shy timid boys with very strict idea about what is proper behavior and what is not.

    Chicks still aren’t “allowed” to be sluts with everyone indiscriminately, much less openly.

    No one is ever going to be doing everyone indiscriminately, everyone has something they find attractive and what they don’t, otherwise its unpaid prostitution.

    What would be nice though is if chicks started to have sex with everyone they find physically attractive like most guys do instead of having some rules about some fluffy feelings or whatever when they are clearly attracted to him, but that isn’t going to happen even with more sex positivity. The biological imperative regarding having children with the right man is too strong.

    Which is the reason for….

    Even in a very sex-positive environment women tend to fuck the top men and betas are left with little to no access to pussy and frustrated.

    However it works a little differently when a woman thinks that she needs to have some man by certain age, which we do not have so much anymore, at least in the west.

    The problem is also that all these betas give way too much attention and even all kinds of non sexual services and male energy that women want from a man even if they don’t bang which is the reason why women often go months or even years without having sex with a guy and it creates a scarcity.

    Of course, the solution is to stop giving women attention when they don’t have sex with you.

  55. I am not sure. A lot of them seem confused as hell about they’re identity. I have also met some real gays who were the most conservative guys I have ever met, shy timid boys with very strict idea about what is proper behavior and what is not.

    I met a great guy at a dinner party the other night, a really entertaining rough, aggressive old Australian faggot. He was snarling and hissing about same-sex marriage, which he denounced as an attempt by heterosexuals to foist their social programing on his community. He was lamenting the passing of the old days, back when he said most gays were actually interesting people, into sexual freedom and adventure, without romantic bullshit. It was quite funny. I got on quite well with him. Talking to him, I reflected that most of his ideas were very consistent with the Alpha 2.0 thing: non-monogamy, no financial links between sexual partners, anti-social programing. He was pouring withering contempt on some government agency that he was doing some consultancy gigs for who sent him a survey asking him if he’d experienced discrimination in the workplace. “You mind your own fucking business and I’ll mind mine,” he said in response.

    But I think he might be the exception that proves the rule. He’s probably a dying breed. The new generation of millennial faggots are probably just as beta-ish as their het counterparts.

  56. Two chicks in the rotation is already a lot of time and energy spent

    Not if you’re doing it according to my system. Particularly if they’re FBs.

  57. What would be nice though is if chicks started to have sex with everyone they find physically attractive like most guys do instead of having some rules about some fluffy feelings or whatever when they are clearly attracted to him, but that isn’t going to happen even with more sex positivity. The biological imperative regarding having children with the right man is too strong.

    Fair enough, that last point is especially true. Very difficult for anyone to overcome that.

    He was snarling and hissing about same-sex marriage, which he denounced as an attempt by heterosexuals to foist their social programing on his community. He was lamenting the passing of the old days, back when he said most gays were actually interesting people, into sexual freedom and adventure, without romantic bullshit.

    LMAO that’s awesome. Reminds me of a movie called The Birdcage where Robin Williams plays a gay dude who has a whole bunch of open relationships but gets pressured into TMM as well as most of his family…I think. It’s a pretty fun movie. I actually know a couple of LGBT peeps like that too. I guess LGBTs have gone backwards, they had it right and then they started embracing TMM, that sucks.

  58. Funny I was with my guy at a bar/lounge/eatery and we sat down on a couch across from two black beta men and an overweight white woman sitting between them. They were very comfortable (or rather the woman was comfy with both men).

    He scoffed to himself. I noticed the 3 but made no comment. Later he told me what I also picked up on– that the 2 men were sharing 1 woman who clearly ran the poly relationship. We could tell this by body language alone. I said must be slim pickings out there (for the betas that is).

  59. They’ve always been really fun. The women are great and really enjoy the gangbang sex, and the couples seem pretty solid and down-to-earth. Although in the gangbang context the focus was the woman, it is my understanding that the man of the couple also gets to fuck other women in other swingers’ events. All of this has opened my mind to this lifestyle and I think it would be cool to be in a relationship with a woman this open about sex in the future.

    I’ve been a swinger in an OLTR relationship for the last 4 years. With lots of swingers the guy is a Beta with some Alpha 1’s. Often the women are running the show.

    But  it doesn’t have to be that way. There is no reason you can’t combine BD’s system with swinging. I still have FB‘s on the side. I still go off by myself to have sex with other girls with my OLTR‘s full knowledge and consent.

    But I really enjoy the swinging. It gives me access to really hot young women who would be a lot more work to get in other circumstances. Plus the group sex is something I really enjoy.

    Also women who are up for swinging will most likely be Bi as my OLTR is. Unlike BD I absolutely love doing FFM and FFFM with my girl. Especially the second. At 51 it doesn’t get much better for me than having 3 hot young bisexual girls in their early 20’s and me together going at it.

    My girl likes hot women as much as I do and our favourite thing to do is find and fuck other hot girls together.

    If you are interested in it I would definitely recommend trying it out. You just have to find the right Bi girl. But make sure you stick to BD’s rules on managing the relationship still.

     

     

  60. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but these pairings are still the norm in the world of nonmonogamy, the world you steadfastly argue is the only practical one.

    I don’t think this is true at all. Real polyamory is still very rare as far as I can tell.

    If you don’t count people in TMM or Mono relationships who cheat (because they are not openly non-mono with each other) then I reckon the biggest group of true non-monogamous people in the world would be the swingers.

    Until I got into it I had no idea how many swingers there were out there. There are millions and millions of swinger couples all over the world. Its a very secretive scene though. Most couples in it don’t tell their non-swinger friends or family about it. 90% of swingers would never admit it publicly to a survey or a documentary or anyone doing an article about it.

    I go to a small Crossfit gym with less than 250 members. I was there for 4 years before I became a swinger. Once I did I quickly found out there were two young couples there who were married and I’d known quite well for the whole time that were also swingers. I had no idea and nobody else did either. Most of their friends at the gym still don’t know.

  61. “What if every man in the world was Alpha Male 2.0?”

    If every man was Alpha 2.0 then I think the top ~20% of Alpha Male 2.0s would be alpha. This alpha/beta thing is based on traits men have or things they do, but I also think it’s a relative scale that women use to compare men. If all the men were the same and alpha badasses, they’d pick on preference or the top alpha badasses.

  62. I don’t think this is true at all. Real polyamory is still very rare as far as I can tell.

    If you don’t count people in TMM or Mono relationships who cheat (because they are not openly non-mono with each other) then I reckon the biggest group of true non-monogamous people in the world would be the swingers.

    Until I got into it I had no idea how many swingers there were out there. There are millions and millions of swinger couples all over the world. Its a very secretive scene though. Most couples in it don’t tell their non-swinger friends or family about it. 90% of swingers would never admit it publicly to a survey or a documentary or anyone doing an article about it.

    I go to a small Crossfit gym with less than 250 members. I was there for 4 years before I became a swinger. Once I did I quickly found out there were two young couples there who were married and I’d known quite well for the whole time that were also swingers. I had no idea and nobody else did either. Most of their friends at the gym still don’t know.

    Wow Marty thanks for sharing your experience. Yeah, it’s like a secret society made of normal couples above any suspicion. They are among us, ahah.

  63. Wow Marty thanks for sharing your experience. Yeah, it’s like a secret society made of normal couples above any suspicion. They are among us, ahah.

    Haha no worries. It really is. They could be anyone. Even your parents.

    We met a couple in Thailand who were in their late 60’s. They retired years ago and bought a condo in Thailand 10 years ago. They live half the year in Aust and half in Thailand. The wife is Bi and they go crazy on all the young Thai girls over there. Like 2 or 3 per week for the whole 6 months. They have adult children back here who have no idea that their Mum is Bi or that they are hooking up with girls all the time over there. He was a wealthy property developer that retired at 50. None of the family or friends back here know either.

    Another couple we know just got back from a 6 week holiday in Europe where they went to a lot of the big swingers clubs over there. They met Mick Jagger in one of them.

  64. Wow Marty thanks for sharing your experience. Yeah, it’s like a secret society made of normal couples above any suspicion. They are among us, ahah.

    Haha no worries. It really is. They could be anyone. Even your parents.

    I am pretty sure my grandparents did this in the past but who knows. I don’t really care.

  65. I am pretty sure my grandparents did this in the past but who knows. I don’t really care.

    cool why do you have reason for suspecting this?

  66. cool why do you have reason for suspecting this?

    Because I know what my grandma is (or used to be) like. Also because my grandparents often talked about sex very casually and openly. And also because grandma has mentioned swinging as joke a few times. It made me think it was not a joke. In fact I was first surprised she knew what it means and it made me think she actually did it. In fact it seems like something she would wanna do I am just not sure if she would do it without grandfather or if he would have been up for it, that is the only reason why I am not sure.

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