One of the fundamental techniques for successful first dates is to let the woman do 80% of the talking. The problem is that most guys don’t know how to do this. While I talk about a specific and easy-to-follow structure in my primary dating manual, Get to Sex Fast, today I will provide a smattering of one-off techniques that will help you. 

I first need to explain why you want her to do at least 80% of the talking on a first date since some of you may be unfamiliar with this concept.  

As I have discussed many times in my books and blogs, when it comes to sexual partners, men look to qualify, and women look to disqualify. In other words, when you’re looking to get laid, you’re looking for things you want such as long hair, big boobs, pretty eyes, whatever. 

Women are a little different. Since women live in a constant state of sexual abundance, they, instead of looking for what they like, keep a constant eye out for what they don’t like. If you want a live demonstration of this, watch a woman actually go through pictures of men on an online dating site. You’ll get quite an education on how women disqualify men. You’ll hear a constant stream of complaints like: 

Nope. His hairstyle is stupid. 

Oh my god. Why is he wearing that hat? 

Wow. He needs to get his teeth whitened. 

His expression is weird. 

He looks like a girl. 

He has to take a picture with his motorcycle? Really? Next! 

And so on. Since, unfortunately, women are the sexual choosers in our society, their brains meticulously scan for flaws in men like radar in a way most men don’t with women. I mean, lets be honest, as long as a woman is even barely fuckable, you’d probably hit it. Right? Right. You don’t care what kind of fucking shirt she’s wearing or if she’s wearing a stupid hat.

But women care. A lot. 

This expands to the first date when she starts listening to you talk. Whether or not she’s aware of it, her scanners are on full blast to see if you say anything she doesn’t like. She could be seriously attracted to you 30 minutes into that first date, but if you say one thing that she finds stupid or offensive, you’re out! It happened to me many times before I realized what was going on, and I promise it’s happened to you too. 

The objective, then, is to keep your god damn mouth shut during a first date and let her do at least 80% of the talking. 

This accomplishes several important things: 

1. The less you say, the lower the odds are of you saying anything she won’t like. This is the most important reason by far. I promise that if you just start talking in a relaxed manner, you will say something she doesn’t like. The odds are overwhelming.

2. Getting her talking and keeping her talking reduces her nervousness, sometimes almost immediately. I’ve had many first dates where the woman was near-terrified at the start and within ten minutes she was relaxed and smiling, just because I made sure she talked a lot.

3. It increases her amount of sexual comfort with you, thus lowering ASD, because she’s talking so much. She feels like “she can talk you.” Women process the world by talking. It’s very important she feels like “she can talk to you” and that you will A) listen to her; B) won’t judge her.

The catch is that keeping your damn mouth shut is often difficult for extroverted men, highly opinionated men, nervous men, and men with shitty game. Unless they’re celebrities or have some other massive form of social proof, it is extremely difficult for very talkative guys to get laid. (Note: I’m talking about a date or a first meet; I’m not referring to high-octane night game or similar scenarios.)  

You must learn how to shut the fuck up and just let her talk. It’s not that hard once you get into the habit. And your sexual results will dramatically increase. It’s worth it. (Once you’ve had sex with her twice and lock her in, then you can talk all you want.) 

Here’s a few techniques that will help you do this: 

1. Take several deep breaths and force yourself to relax right before entering the first date venue.

Often, men talk a lot because they’re nervous. The less nervous you are, the less likely you’ll talk too much. This is much easier for more outcome independent men, but if you’re not in that category yet, get in the habit of standing in a quiet place right before the first date/meet and taking a few deep breaths and centering yourself. The Get to Sex Fast book has a lot of specific techniques on this.

2. Don’t talk unless you’re asking a question.

The person asking the questions is the one controlling the conversation. Therefore, you need to be the one asking the questions. Most of your statements on a first date should end with some kind of question. This will keep her talking and you quiet (hopefully). This applies to online dating as well.

3. Redirect if you are asked a question.

If you are asked a question, that’s fine. Answer it, then follow up with a question of your own. Again, don’t let her take charge of the conversation! YOU need to be the one asking most of the questions.  

An important side-note about this: Women who are provider hunters, Dominants, or who are over the age of 33 will often place you in “job interview mode” when on a first date, and will start drilling you with questions about your job, family, sexual history, education, and so on. Don’t fall into this trap. Once she blurts out the third question from her Future Beta Male Husband Questionnaire List™, smile, and gently ask her if you’re on a job interview. Then laugh, and shift the conversation to more pleasant, casual, or interesting topics. If this doesn’t work, you’re probably screwed since this woman isn’t interested in fast sex no matter what you do and is more focused on looking for her next ex-husband, but at least give it a shot.

4. Keep probing until you find a topic she really likes.

Most women have a topic that really turns them on and gets them excited. Your job is to uncover what this is. Once you do, she will get animated as hell and start rambling about it for 25 minutes straight, and that’s GREAT. I once had a woman talking about her three dogs nonstop for 30 minutes. We had sex at the very start of the second date. I had another woman talking about stage crew work for plays she worked on (yes, I’m serious) again for about 30 minutes and had sex just as fast. I could give you so many examples. Uncovering a woman’s Happy Topic is really powerful. 

Often you won’t find this secret topic, but you should try anyway. Keep asking more questions, going deeper, until you uncover her Happy Topic.  

One note of warning: For this technique to work, a woman’s Happy Topic can’t be anything having to do with politics. If she starts nonstop ranting about GMOs, Trump, or bees going extinct, this is going to put her into a negative state, so obviously you don’t want to go there. Read this for more detail.

This is a very big topic, but the above techniques will get you started. As is the case with so many other dating techniques, self-awareness is where you need to start. Be aware of how much you talk on first dates and set a goal to reduce it immediately. 

54 Comments on “First Dates – Let HER Do the Talking

  1. I try and do a lot of research on the woman before the first date.  Facebook and the car she drives, the work she does all potentially tell a lot about a woman.  They like to talk about themselves a lot so I tend to guide the conversation in that direction.

     

    You shouldn’t get nervous before the date.  If you are truly outcome independent then this should sort the problem out.  I find a big turnoff is coming across as being “desperate” or “needy”.

  2. I have also learnt that talking more than the woman on a date telegraphs high interest in her. You are trying to seek her approval by talking more than her which shows she is higher status / value than you. The person who asks questions holds the power.

    Like a job interview where the employer mostly asks the questions and the job seeker is rambling trying to seek approval and the offer letter.

    I will also add when she talks, disqualify her at least once but not more than 2 times. Again not an insult but more of being skeptic about what she has said. This makes her want to explain things more which means less talking for you and more talking for her.

  3. I have also learnt that talking more than the woman on a date telegraphs high interest in her. You are trying to seek her approval by talking more than her which shows she is higher status / value than you.

    I would think it’s less that and more the general fact that most people like to talk but not to listen. First of all, it’s not easy to be a good storyteller (no, she doesn’t care about all the amazing places you’ve visited), and secondly, she likely has lots of people in her life that come to her to vent. Most people have precious few opportunities to talk to someone and be heard, without having to endure the other party’s stupid stories in return.

    I’m not finding this advice of BD’s hard to follow at all, but I’m the kind of person who just doesn’t have the need to talk a lot. If it’s hard for you, you’re somewhat similar to some of my friends who talk incessantly. I’m content to hear them out in full, though from time to time I remind them they’re unlikely to reach understanding with other people if they don’t bother to let them speak more than 1% of the time.

    So if you can’t easily do what BD describes in this article, then perhaps you life in general could be improved by actually letting people around you do some of the talking.

  4. You shouldn’t get nervous before the date.  If you are truly outcome independent then this should sort the problem out.

     
    True, but it’s going to be hard for guys who haven’t had a lot of dates or who aren’t used to chatting to women to be completely outcome independent.
     
    I’d avoid complimenting the women about her looks/appearance. If she is really attractive, she’s had guys saying it all the time and the guy just gets lumped in the Beta box, with everyone else.
     

    I will also add when she talks, disqualify her at least once but not more than 2 times. Again not an insult but more of being skeptic about what she has said. This makes her want to explain things more which means less talking for you and more talking for her.

     
    Yep, good advice. It also has the added benefit of separating you from the 99% of guys she meets who just say “That’s great!”, “Cool!!”, “Me too!?!”.. to everything she says and makes her have to qualify herself.
     
    When you do ask her something, try and make it a statement rather than a question as it’s very easy to fall into ‘hairdresser questions of Doom’ mode i.e. “What do you do?” “When was that?” etc.. and her replies will get stilted and you’ll end up with one word replies.
    Comments like “when I think of xxx, I’d imagine that —–!?” or “I don’t know about you but I think that…” get her to invest in her replies

  5. Comments like “when I think of xxx, I’d imagine that —–!?” or “I don’t know about you but I think that…” get her to invest in her replies

    While the general idea of using statements and not questions is a very good one, these particular replies seem to be less than perfect, unless the ellipses stand for hypothetical statements about her. “I’d imagine you had so much fun there you’re already planning to do it again next year” is fine, “I’d imagine that if I went there I’d do this and that as I like those things very much”, less so.

  6. “True, but it’s going to be hard for guys who haven’t had a lot of dates or who aren’t used to chatting to women to be completely outcome independent.

    I’d avoid complimenting the women about her looks/appearance. If she is really attractive, she’s had guys saying it all the time and the guy just gets lumped in the Beta box, with everyone else.”

    Nothing wrong with complimenting a woman – just don’t be creepy.  If you can tell she did a lot of effort with her hair for example look her in the eyes and say you like the way her hair looks.  Don’t necessarily say “I love your hair” rather “I love the way your hair looks”.  Just don’t over do compliments or be corny.

    Regarding getting nervous – agreed but that is why you should go on various dates – it will get better.

     

  7. While the general idea of using statements and not questions is a very good one, these particular replies seem to be less than perfect, unless the ellipses stand for hypothetical statements about her. “I’d imagine you had so much fun there you’re already planning to do it again next year” is fine, “I’d imagine that if I went there I’d do this and that as I like those things very much”, less so.

    Yep, your replies should illicit a response from her, that gets her to talk about her favorite subject: Her! Fractionation is a good process to follow; listen, comment, tease, silence.. rinse repeat.

    Nothing wrong with complimenting a woman – just don’t be creepy.  If you can tell she did a lot of effort with her hair for example look her in the eyes and say you like the way her hair looks.  Don’t necessarily say “I love your hair” rather “I love the way your hair looks”.  Just don’t over do compliments or be corny.
    Regarding getting nervous – agreed but that is why you should go on various dates – it will get better.

     
    @joe I think we’re coming from the same direction, just differing in our audience. Lol!
    It’s probably the coach in me as I’m looking at it from guys who are getting back in the dating saddle or who are perhaps less socially calibrated, whereas your coming from the perspective of guys who are already good with women.
    As you say, a confident Alpha guy can give compliments the right way (strong tone, solid eye contact, relaxed body language) and then forget it and thus he shows a masculine frame and comes across as attractive.
    A less confident guy would probably give a compliment and if the women responds well, will start to think that if he gives more, the girl will continue to respond positively when in fact he just ends up supplicating and loses attraction in the women’s eyes.
    I’ve encouraged guys I coached not to give compliments or at most a ‘Hey, you look nice’ remark when they meet but then move on to getting her to talk about herself as that way the guy doesn’t start focusing on her attractiveness as much and mentally putting her on a pedestal i.e. outcome independence.
    As for nervousness, yep as you go on more dates, guys will get a handle on things, just that the first few will probably be on the learning curve.

  8. I agree. I apply the same rule also to text messaging before meeting up and between meetups. Less is more. And I’m not that good with words anyway. I’m much better at sexually escalating in person.

    By not talking/texting much, you don’t give her reasons to disqualify you and as a bonus give the impression you’re very busy or mysterious.

  9. Neil, you shouldn’t solicit your textbooks from people complicit in crimes against grammar. Those illicit sources can’t elicit good language.

  10. As you say, a confident Alpha guy can give compliments the right way (strong tone, solid eye contact, relaxed body language) and then forget it and thus he shows a masculine frame and comes across as attractive.

    If your confident alpha is getting laid after complimenting a woman he’s just met on how beautiful she is, it’s despite the compliments, not because of them. It’s a really dumb idea.

  11. I feel like social media is a very easy place to fuck shit up. If you post too much, too many memes, too much political crap, opinions, douchey pics of baseball hats and motorcycles… women will disqualify you without even meeting you. 

    Social media should generally be a place to show SMV

  12. Nothing wrong with complimenting a woman – just don’t be creepy. If you can tell she did a lot of effort with her hair for example look her in the eyes and say you like the way her hair looks. Don’t necessarily say “I love your hair” rather “I love the way your hair looks”.

    Incorrect.

    https://blackdragonblog.com/2013/04/17/six-reasons-why-you-shouldnt-compliment-a-womans-appearance/

    https://blackdragonblog.com/2015/03/15/the-great-blackdragon-debate-no-2-complimenting-womens-appearance/

    Just read those. Bottom line: complimenting women’s appearance before you have sex with them will damage your odds at least a little bit regardless of how you do it.

    I won’t comment on that topic further since I’ve already debunked the complimenting thing numerous times.

  13. Regarding BD’s basic point … yeah, shut the fuck up and get her to talk. In fact, it also applies when you’re doing business, dealing with clients, and so on. Charismatic people are good listeners. It doesnt mean you sit there passively, you gotta guide the other person in the right direction. Sales 101.

  14. Holy shit, Caleb. For me a very well-timed post. I was planning on bringing up this topic on your next blog post.

    This year I’ve talked my way out of the 4 hottest women on what had appeared to be surefire lays. I just did that this week too. I master the first date in that I talk a lot, mix in questions, and then stop and only ask questions/let them do all the talking, but second date success is horrific for me because I keep talking and usually give them plenty of reason to say no. It only happens with girls I consider much hotter so it’s a self-esteem/confidence issue. Right now it’s my biggest area of failure.

    I need a speech coach because I tend to be highly extroverted and cerebral and that does work wonders for the type of girls I attract (only on the first date). My question to you is this:

    Is there a way to rescue the situation when things work on the first date, and then you talk too much on the second and you fail? From my experience, if I screw up the second date in this particular way, I’m done and will usually move on to the other girls on my list, but was wondering if there’s still a way out for my latest screw up since it’s still recent. I do everything else right and according to the AM 2.0 method, but I just can’t stop talking. So while I work on improving that with practice and training, I’d like to know if there are last ditch rescue alternatives.

     

  15.  

     I promise that if you just start talking in a relaxed manner, you will say something she doesn’t like. The odds are overwhelming.

    While this is true for the most part, it depends on her attraction level she has towards you, imo. This usually happens more likely to men who are either physically not that attractive or just viewed as a possible provider boyfriend/husband material. I have experienced women treating me differently on dates, based on their attraction level for me. I can feel whenever a woman likes me instantly, just by looking and smiling at me. Then I can relax, joke around or even say something “stupid”, so actually sometimes it’s me testing her, how far I can go and it has never caused me any rejection at all until now. Rejection only happened from the moment I shook hands with a date and felt that there was no sexual chemistry on her side, which luckily has not happened too often.

    And to give you another example: I have a friend, who regularly fails with women. Sometimes he is too nice, too generous, sometimes he is too cold and sometimes wants to come off edgy. Last week he told a woman, that he didn’t think it was a good idea if her son became a doctor because the world is already over populated, so why help humans at all surviving? Yeah well, let’s wait and see how this will turn out..^^

    So I have a question I want to talk about regarding my buddy, that you didn’t cover much in your article, unless I missed it. HOW do you make her talk all the time, when she is not willing to? He often complains that the women won’t talk to him at all, if he doesn’t ask questions and lead the conversation. They will answer his questions but they won’t do all the talking. Now, I have told him to talk about HER, asking her things about HER life and hobbies and talk about funny and interesting topics, while leaving politics and serious topics out of it but it seems like he can’t do it. Now, since I am his friend and don’t really like to be totally honest with him, in order to not hurt his feelings, I think these women are not initially attracted to him at all. That’s why I wrote about my dating experiences above. So what does it mean, if a woman is NOT doing 80% of the talking? Is it you doing something wrong every time or is it her not feeling you at all or something else?

     

  16. While this is true for the most part, it depends on her attraction level she has towards you, imo.

    Well, sure. If she’s really into you, you can make mistakes and get away with it. But why not play your best game anyway? It’s good training for next time when the odds aren’t in your favour.

  17. Last week he told a woman, that he didn’t think it was a good idea if her son became a doctor because the world is already over populated, so why help humans at all surviving? Yeah well, let’s wait and see how this will turn out..^^

    Wow. What a great line. I’ll see if I can use it myself next time I meet a woman I want to get into. Does he get slapped in the face a lot? Probably not. Barely worth it. A woman has to be slightly into you to even bother slapping you.

  18. I am extremely talkative and indeed my dates are bad. Mostly I just get women who are either extremely attracted to me no matter what I say or women who specifically love it when I talk a lot and tell them all kinds of stories the other women simply don’t come back. The plus side is the very submissive women who love to be lectured and told what to do absolutely love it. The minus side is I lose large percentage of possible women.

    When I try to let her do the talking she usually either goes off in totally wrong direction that it stops feeling like a date at all (and then also nothing happens) or she doesn’t say much and waits for me to say something to entertain her / ask her something. Most women I met sit there and wait for me to say stuff and if they answer the answers are brief. The very talkative women are common but def not the majority. So for me from this the only thing I can do is talk less with the talkative ones and maybe redirect the topics a bit but the rest I have no idea what to do.

    I also have no idea how one is supposed to do flirting / building up sexual tension when she is supposed to do most of the talking. I usually either do zero flirt and then the ones who come to second date I hit on them at my place directly or I slowly get touchy with her and that works on some women.

    About letting her talk for a long time – it sounds fine in theory but in reality she will notice I am extremely bored and don’t give a damn at all about what they say. This seems to annoy them a lot and it makes things worse. It is extremely hard for me to listen and pay attention to someone talking for more than a couple of minutes without me saying a lot in return.

  19. Bottom line: complimenting women’s appearance before you have sex with them will damage your odds at least a little bit regardless of how you do it.

    I don’t get why this is so hard for so many guys.  I think most of them do it because they think the woman expects it or will be offended if he doesn’t compliment her.  Yes, maybe she will be offended, that’s probably a good thing i.e. increased attraction.  You don’t want to do the things a woman expects, then you are like everyone else and lumped in with all the betas.  And if she gets offended, what’s she going to be thinking?  “Doesn’t he think I’m attractive?  All the other guys always compliment me.”  And perhaps that will increase her interest in you and the fact that you aren’t a kiss ass and don’t need her.

    Whenever you do something you think she wants because you “don’t want to disappoint her” you are outcome independent and scared to lose her.  She senses that.  When she senses you aren’t scared to lose her, she will often be more attracted because you are your own man and not a beta that is controlled by women.

  20. So what does it mean, if a woman is NOT doing 80% of the talking?

    Possible questions to ask include: Does the man make her feel safe and not judged? Does the man know how to steer the conversation towards pleasant uncontroversial topics? Does he answer her questions acceptably and redirects the conversation to her without sounding as though he’s hiding something? Does he have some rehearsed DHV-filled stories for the rare cases where she doesn’t want to talk much? Has he maximized his attractiveness?

  21. This is gold and is probably the bedrock of my first date game.

    The other keys are bar that looks classy/ swanky but isn’t actually too ball busting ($10 drinks in Chicago), girl will rarely have more than one on a first date. If she does, 99% of the time it’s because she’s DTF that night.

    Final key is the various Kino escalation ladders — or in non-nerd speak, gambits or just the balls to increasingly touch her more with comfort.

    I’m quite introverted and if I’m not in “first date mode” — even >I< will blab endlessly as a male on a first date. It’s not necessarily the introversion/ extroversion in this case.

    I think it’s a few things:

    The idea as a male you need to “impress” the woman, and our “job interview” mindset. You need to “convince” the person to do XYZ. But as anyone with game knows, these are terrible mindsets. Some men don’t like the idea that their vibe, appearance, and sprinkling of convo they rattle off is enough to get laid. They need to bear their soul first. Yeah … not if you want to see her naked.

    In most white collar offices, to be honest, men are accustomed to vying for conversation and interrupting and talking over women constantly. I’m not a feminist but it’s just plain true. Everyone wants to have their ideas heard and men are typically more assertive/ rude in many cases. Naturally this carries over to first dates and women will “defer” to you. Bad idea though!

    People love to hear themselves talk. Whoever talks more has more fun and feels like you “know them” and “get them.” In most cases, you already are sold on plowing her after seeing her in person, so let her have the fun talkie part. Again, if you want to see her naked.

    As BD already mentioned, the less you talk, the less you’ll talk about your crackpot political theories or off-color opinions. They may play in rare cases but not in most cases not.

    The frame is key. I disagree you have to ‘disqualify’ her at all, unless she feels her social status is significantly higher than yours. Most guys who are not social geniuses will muck it up anyway. Just sit back and let your aloof mysterious silence say it all. The more she talks the more she is ‘qualifying’ anyway. She’s trying to impress you! You are unsure about her … for now … keep talking girl. Great frame and very little effort.

    The last component is to make sure there is sexual tension. There usually is but in rare cases you can botch this if you become to engrossed in conversation in a best friend way.

    NEVER compliment a woman’s appearance on a first date. I never see it playing well. Men have a compulsive need to compliment women because they think it will make them wet. It’s not strategic, it’s entirely 100% self-indulgent for men to give compliments.

    Here’s an alternative: Let her “catch you” – “accidentally” briefly checking out her rack like a sexually entranced man, but only for a half-second. Only do this towards the end if things are going well.

    It will send sexual tension through the roof + likely making her wet. A bit of half-innocence is needed here. Far more effective than “I really like your hair” – which her coworkers tell her daily and is lame.

  22. second date success is horrific for me because I keep talking and usually give them plenty of reason to say no.

    Yep! That’s how it works! Gotta learn to shut the fuck up!

    Is there a way to rescue the situation when things work on the first date, and then you talk too much on the second and you fail?

    While still on the second date, yes, sometimes. Just shake your head and say something like, “Eh, I didn’t actually mean that,” then SHUT THE FUCK UP and let her talk. After the second date is over and she’s long gone, no, you’re usually screwed at that point.

    HOW do you make her talk all the time, when she is not willing to? He often complains that the women won’t talk to him at all, if he doesn’t ask questions and lead the conversation. They will answer his questions but they won’t do all the talking. Now, I have told him to talk about HER, asking her things about HER life and hobbies and talk about funny and interesting topics, while leaving politics and serious topics out of it but it seems like he can’t do it.

    You just accurately answered his question. It sounds to me like your buddy is just being stubborn.

    There are a small percentage of women who don’t like to talk very much, and you’ll have to (unfortunately) talk a little more on first dates with these particular girls, but these women are the exception to the rule and not the norm.

    I am extremely talkative and indeed my dates are bad.

    Yep. The theme here keeps repeating…

    I also have no idea how one is supposed to do flirting / building up sexual tension when she is supposed to do most of the talking.

    Read this book. I give exact instructions on how to do exactly that.

    About letting her talk for a long time – it sounds fine in theory but in reality she will notice I am extremely bored and don’t give a damn at all about what they say.

    Incorrect. I didn’t say never talk. I said talk 20% of the time. That 20% should be you constantly asking more questions about what she just said and then shutting up. That will clearly demonstrate interest.

    It is extremely hard for me to listen and pay attention to someone talking for more than a couple of minutes without me saying a lot in return.

    And that is a huge problem that will permanently damage your sex life until you learn how to change it. Respond to what she says with a question, then shut the fuck up and let her keep talking. If you “can’t” do this, then yeah, you’re screwed.

    I don’t get why this is so hard for so many guys. I think most of them do it because they think the woman expects it or will be offended if he doesn’t compliment her.

    I don’t think so. I think most guys who get upset when I say “don’t compliment her appearance” are more extroverted, emotional guys who legitimately like complimenting women on how they look. It makes them (the men) feel good.

    If you go through those articles and threads, you’ll notice most of the “arguments” these men make boil down to this: “I want to compliment women’s appearance because I like it, therefore it’s a good idea.”

    Which, of course, is incorrect. Whether or not you like a technique has no bearing on whether or not that technique is optimally effective in real life.

    Some men don’t like the idea that their vibe, appearance, and sprinkling of convo they rattle off is enough to get laid. They need to bear their soul first.

    Exactly right.

    And as someone above already pointed out, the need to do this is often indicative of some kind of self-esteem or emotional problem.

    I really like women. But I have no interest in telling a woman I want to have sex with anything about anything. I don’t give a shit about talking. I just want to get from zero to the sex as fast as possible. (If I decide much later that she’s an MLTR, then, at that point, I might want to talk to her about my life or opinions. Maybe.)

  23. Some men don’t like the idea that their vibe, appearance, and sprinkling of convo they rattle off is enough to get laid. They need to bear their soul first.

    Exactly right.

    That’s absolutely correct. Speaking for myself, I’m exactly that. And I bet a bunch of guys who are successful with this system feel the same way deep inside.

    For years, bit by bit, I’ve been following the system and getting results I would never have dreamed of and don’t get me wrong it has transformed my life, my vibe, everything.

    But to be honest I hate that it works so well. My inner angry Alpha 1.0 is constantly amazed at how keeping my mouth shut, posting some good pictures, and keeping dates short (yes I’m oversimplifying) can get women that claim to be smart as hell into bed and that I’m completely replaceable-meaning any guy can do it. That’s exactly why I talk so much on dates. It’s my “fuck you” to the incredibly apt AM 2.0 system. If you wanted to be cynical about my attitude you can say that I hate winning so easily. It’s totally up the alley of PUAs and Alpha 1.0s. I know!

    And as someone above already pointed out, the need to do this is often indicative of some kind of self-esteem or emotional problem.

    That was me. And yes, I and a bunch of people using this system almost certainly have self-esteem issues. I’m aware. But I’m not particularly interested in resolving them, just in getting what I want legally and while providing a choice to all parties involved.

    Anyway, this posting, for me, is well-timed and a good reminder. We should all shut the fuck up as Caleb reminds us.

  24. (If I decide much later that she’s an MLTR, then, at that point, I might want to talk to her about my life or opinions. Maybe.)

    Do you have guidelines on which opinions to tell your MLTR (as opposed to OLTR)? You’ve said you need to water down your views on politics/religion till you’ve had sex twice, but does that mean you can say whatever the hell you like later, and are there differences depending on her FBMLTROLTR status?
    I don’t like to be dishonest even by omission, but I suspect that being 100% open could be trouble. Here in France the girls online lean heavily liberal; no need to be a rightwinger to be red flagged, leaning centrist/ libertarian can be enough it seems.

  25. If you go through those articles and threads, you’ll notice most of the “arguments” these men make boil down to this: “I want to compliment women’s appearance because I like it, therefore it’s a good idea.”

    Yeah and I let women stay the night even when shes a FB because I like it. I know it’s not a good idea but I like it so it is a trade off I accept.

  26. Is it a good idea for her to restart the conversation sometimes? I do that sometimes, because it feels strange when i asked a bunch of questions in a row, and none of them gets her into her story mode.

    Furthermore, I tend to talk more in the beginning, not because i want to, but because she does not seem to have much to say. It takes me about 30 mins (not non stop talking, but with me asking qns and talking in between) before she reaches her “story mode” where she talks a lot. How do I shorten it to 10 mins?

  27. I do that sometimes, because it feels strange when i asked a bunch of questions in a row, and none of them gets her into her story mode.

    Furthermore, I tend to talk more in the beginning, not because i want to, but because she does not seem to have much to say. It takes me about 30 mins (not non stop talking, but with me asking qns and talking in between) before she reaches her “story mode” where she talks a lot. How do I shorten it to 10 mins?

    Yeah, I have this as well.

  28. 1.      I do that sometimes, because it feels strange when i asked a bunch of questions in a row, and none of them gets her into her story mode.
    Furthermore, I tend to talk more in the beginning, not because i want to, but because she does not seem to have much to say. It takes me about 30 mins (not non stop talking, but with me asking qns and talking in between) before she reaches her “story mode” where she talks a lot. How do I shorten it to 10 mins?
    Yeah, I have this as well.
    It’s probably because you’re not asking the right type of questions to elicit a deeper response. Generic questions like “ So, do you enjoy being a xxxx” or “So why did you go to xxx” will only get a limited response.
    More specific comments to get her to connect better would be like;
    Tell me something no one knows about you?
    Do you have a guilty pleasure?
    What type of guys do you like?
    What do you like about me?
    Have you dated nice guys or bad boys?
    When was the last time you had sex?
    Open multiple threads & come back to them later on, if she doesn’t elaborate but that should be enough.

  29. I simply ask them about holidays and vacations. Works rather reliably.

    But to be honest I hate that it works so well <…> and that I’m completely replaceable

    Well yes, you are replaceable, and so are they! Why would you want it to be otherwise?

  30. I see so many parallels of this post and discussion with business. I would like to see a discussion / post on this separately and how it applies.

  31. I don’t like to be dishonest even by omission, but I suspect that being 100% open could be trouble. Here in France the girls online lean heavily liberal; no need to be a rightwinger to be red flagged, leaning centrist/ libertarian can be enough it seems.

    Is this still a thing that most women are left wing or even super extreme left wing? I find it extremely puzzling since most of the policies and activities of current left (especially the ultra left) are extremely bad for women, especially in the long term. I estimate that women will probably not have in the future anywhere near as many rights as they do now and that in many very left wing societies womens right will be de-facto non existent in a decade or two. This is assuming the politics and voting trends continue the way they are now. For example I could understand when some business men are against Trump on the basis of his insane economical policies but would expect women to be his biggest supporters. It seems to be the other way around which is incomprehensible.

  32. I don’t like to be dishonest even by omission, but I suspect that being 100% open could be trouble. Here in France the girls online lean heavily liberal; no need to be a rightwinger to be red flagged, leaning centrist/ libertarian can be enough it seems.

    Is this still a thing that most women are left wing or even super extreme left wing? I find it extremely puzzling since most of the policies and activities of current left (especially the ultra left) are extremely bad for women, especially in the long term. I estimate that women will probably not have in the future anywhere near as many rights as they do now and that in many very left wing societies womens right will be de-facto non existent in a decade or two

    Well, not actually communist or anything. But heavily liberal and really big on the whole feminism/ privilege/ gender blank slate thing.
    If your view on those topics is technically progressive and sex-positive but more like Steven Pinker or Christina Sommers than the mainstream ‘zeitgeist’, you already qualify as conservative or sexist in their book
    (look at what a supposedly center-left page like RationalWiki says of Quillette magazine, which is pretty centrist and close to those two authors’ views: they label it as right wing)
    So not quite “anything to the right of communist is rightwing” madness, but still fairly irrational. I get that after lock-in they give less of a fuck and will just go “OGM my guy is such an old fashioned asshole” then shrug, but I want to know to what extent I can be open about it with girls below OLTR status, especially the different shades of MLTR.

  33. So not quite “anything to the right of communist is rightwing” madness, but still fairly irrational. I get that after lock-in they give less of a fuck and will just go “OGM my guy is such an old fashioned asshole” then shrug, but I want to know to what extent I can be open about it with girls below OLTR status, especially the different shades of MLTR.

    Personally, I would hard disqualify any such woman as a potential for something serious. This is FB material, maybe very low end MLTR.

    In my experience they are very easy to tell apart. The ones with the insane views usually make a point of telling you about the politics they identify with very very early on or straight out ask you (in a very judgmental way). The normal ones don’t mention politics at all or ask you about your views for weeks, months or possibly longer. I would say the first group keep as FB / very low end MLTR that way you dont get to hear the nonsense views they have (or not much) and the normal girls you can go deeper with and then tell them. In my view if a woman is submissive and you are dominant and looks up to you (probably a standard set up for longterm relationships with women if you are following this blog) then she will often even change her views for you.

  34. to be honest I hate that it works so well. My inner angry Alpha 1.0 is constantly amazed at how keeping my mouth shut, posting some good pictures, and keeping dates short (yes I’m oversimplifying) can get women that claim to be smart as hell into bed and that I’m completely replaceable-meaning any guy can do it.

    Fantastic quote.

  35. Do you have guidelines on which opinions to tell your MLTR (as opposed to OLTR)?

    No. Just say whatever you want at that point, once you’re well past Lock-In she won’t really care.

    You’ve said you need to water down your views on politics/religion till you’ve had sex twice, but does that mean you can say whatever the hell you like later

    As long as you’re not an asshole to her, yes.

    and are there differences depending on her FBMLTROLTR status?

    Not really. If you have to walk on eggshells when spending time with a woman, she shouldn’t be anything beyond a distant FB.

    I don’t like to be dishonest even by omission, but I suspect that being 100% open could be trouble. Here in France the girls online lean heavily liberal; no need to be a rightwinger to be red flagged, leaning centrist/ libertarian can be enough it seems.

    Uhh, what? I don’t see how not stating some of your political views on a first or second date is being “dishonest by omission.” She’s on a fucking date. She’s not looking for a politician to vote for. She’s looking for some cock. You’re over-thinking. Which, as I’ve told you before, you have a tendency to do.

    Is it a good idea for her to restart the conversation sometimes?

    Sure. Again, as long as she’s doing the vast majority of the talking and the new conversation topic won’t put her in a bad state.

    Furthermore, I tend to talk more in the beginning, not because i want to, but because she does not seem to have much to say. It takes me about 30 mins (not non stop talking, but with me asking qns and talking in between) before she reaches her “story mode” where she talks a lot. How do I shorten it to 10 mins?

    Ask. More. Questions.

    Keep. Probing.

    it feels strange when i asked a bunch of questions in a row, and none of them gets her into her story mode.

    Because you’re probably asking random questions that aren’t linked. Instead, every question should be based on the last thing she just said. That way it’s a conversation instead of a job interview.

    And yes, sometimes it does feel strange. Irrelevant. I don’t give a fuck how you feel. I just care if you get laid. I’ve had first dates that felt strange for a bit and then we had sex within 10 minutes on the second date. Doesn’t matter.

    Stop worrying about your feelings on a first date and start focusing on having sex.

    That and worrying about her politics… haha, Jesus. Some of you guys have your priories in the wrong place.

    I see so many parallels of this post and discussion with business.

    Absolutely, especially during consultative selling.

    I would like to see a discussion / post on this separately and how it applies.

    I can do that over at the other blog.

  36. Caleb, I think you once said you don’t even bother reading a woman’s online dating profile before you meet her. How come? Seems like a good way to get a clue where her Happy Spot is.
    I had a date this evening where I made a particular point of trying to reduce my talking time to the maximum, just to test some of the points raised in this blog post. She’d mentioned her top travel experience on her profile, five days in some sort of liberal interfaith religious community in rural France set up by a Catholic Brother. I spent a total of two minutes skimming the Wiki on it before I met her. Of course, she was enormously happy and impressed that I’d heard of it — she forgot that she’d written about it on her profile — and I had enough info to ask her questions to keep her beaming with pleasure for the whole hour.
    She’s definitely a Dominant and not nearly as hot as her pictures indicated, so I won’t pursue a second date. But it was fun to test the premise.

    So why not read the profile to find the clues?

     

  37. I don’t see how not stating some of your political views on a first or second date is being “dishonest by omission.” She’s on a fucking date.

    No, I was talking about after lock-in, especially after weeks of dating an MLTR.

  38. Guess some folks just need to increase their social circles and have more guy friends to talk about sensitive stuff.

    After countless dates and lays, I have an absolute total of zero talks about politics with any of those women. Even with MLTRs this is a subject we never get into. Why? Because it’s really irrelevant for a man/woman relationship.

    When I have a girl who’s more than a FB with me, I’m after her femininity, her scent, her body, her kiss, her presence and her character. I could not care less about who she voted for or how she views topics that revolve around politics.

  39. Caleb, I think you once said you don’t even bother reading a woman’s online dating profile before you meet her. How come?

    https://blackdragonblog.com/2012/07/15/why-you-should-not-read-womens-profiles/

    Seems like a good way to get a clue where her Happy Spot is.

    1. It usually won’t. (And your one, individual case is not a statistic.)

    2. That one possible small advantage doesn’t outweigh the multiple disadvantages (both logistical and mental) of reading women’s profiles.

    But if it’s something you find valuable, go ahead. I don’t and won’t.

    Guess some folks just need to increase their social circles and have more guy friends to talk about sensitive stuff.

    That could indeed be one of the reasons for this, yes.

    After countless dates and lays, I have an absolute total of zero talks about politics with any of those women. Even with MLTRs this is a subject we never get into.

    The number of women I’ve had in MLTR relationships who wanted to talk about politics with me is around 2%. Despite what the manosphere says, most women don’t give a fuck about politics, and the few that do are usually extreme Dominants who don’t qualify for any MLTR with an Alpha 2.0 in the first place. (Dominants are for beta males, not us.)

    When I have a girl who’s more than a FB with me, I’m after her femininity, her scent, her body, her kiss, her presence and her character. I could not care less about who she voted for or how she views topics that revolve around politics.

    Agree. Shit, I’m married to PF and I still don’t give rat fuck about any of her political opinions (what few she actually has; she’s a girl so she barely has any). And more importantly, she doesn’t give a shit about mine.

  40. a woman’s Happy Topic can’t be anything having to do with politics.

    Legit, although you can probably get away with chicks who are right leaning or libertarians (or even SOME Alt-Left Anarcho Communist types, but it isn’t worth the chance).

    I’d also like to add that the Happy Topic shouldn’t have anything to do with her family and stuff. That’s how it is with single moms, if their kids are their Happy Topic, they pretty much want you to be the kids’ dad.

  41. Great post BD

    could you make a post called

    do not try to make her happy

    i always get confused on what to say when and then try something that worked in a movie or something …does not quite work

    but societal programming says it should have?

    thanks

  42. &kevin

    Stuff in movies or tv, IS Societal programming. Just ask her stuff that illiterates a deep response from her like her dreams, her ideal career, her ultimate goals etc.. that get her to qualify herself to you.

  43. Politics to women is like fashion and make up to men, we just don’t care at all about it. Also politics have a lot to do with responsibilities and future plannings and if there is one thing that women don’t like, that thing is taking responsibilities for their actions and that of others.

  44. Legit, although you can probably get away with chicks who are right leaning or libertarians

    No. Wrong. No political discussion on first or second dates, period, regardless of what her political views are (or more accurately, what you think they are based on the bullshit she says or implies).

    I’d also like to add that the Happy Topic shouldn’t have anything to do with her family and stuff.

    Incorrect. Her talking about that stuff is fine. It’s just that her Happy Topic is not likely to be her kids / family. Single moms love their kids and their lives revolve around them, but they also view them as a burden and source of stress, not their Happy Topic.

    That’s how it is with single moms, if their kids are their Happy Topic, they pretty much want you to be the kids’ dad.

    Incorrect if you follow the Alpha Male 2.0 frame. I have had sex and relationships with scores of single mothers of all ages and I have not found what you’re saying to be the case, as I’ve stated here before. That’s mostly manosphere bullshit (and the result of guys acting like betas and providers on first and second dates).

    could you make a post called

    do not try to make her happy

    i always get confused on what to say when and then try something that worked in a movie or something …does not quite work

    but

    societal programming says it should have?

    Yes I will. I already have one planned. 🙂

  45. i’ve tried the line of ”if you behave nice, i only going to treat you XYZ”. That forces her to find out what does it mean within like 5 mins of conversation, ”what do you mean by that?” ”don’t you know im being nice?” ”omg, how dare you say that..” bla bla bla

    and i kept changing topic trying to behave nonchalant. It has been great experiences…

  46. as a super-talkative guy i’m laughing my ass off that not getting laid cuz I talk too much probably applies to me xD

     

    idunno, i feel like when i talk a lot in a relaxed state it screens for women who are particularly interested by my style of talking, and then after they’re extremely invested in me. but i’ll try this out.

  47. idunno, i feel like when i talk a lot in a relaxed state it screens for women who are particularly interested by my style of talking, and then after they’re extremely invested in me. but i’ll try this out.

    Yes same here. The women who I get and stay are the ones who love to listen to me and even are often super submissive and love being told what to do by me and lectured by me. But I am also going to try this because I did not like that I had to go to a lot of dates to get these women and wanted to have more reliable results.

  48. This should have a label “newbie advice”. Every advanced guy knows that this isn’t how it goes half of the time. There is plenty of girls who are nervous or just not that talkative when the balance may be even 70-30 where guy talks more.

    Also this may work if you just wanna aim for as many lays as you want without caring about emotional/mental compatibility (which is essential for long term relationship regardless of type). You should convey your personality already at the first date to save some time if she can’t stand it and vice versa.

    Also I’ve told many times that girls liked me because I can actually have conversation – not just ask questions. When you are advanced and can hold conversation, that’s the way to go, not to fall into interview mode.

  49. This should have a label “newbie advice”. Every advanced guy knows that this isn’t how it goes half of the time. There is plenty of girls who are nervous or just not that talkative when the balance may be even 70-30 where guy talks more.

    Also this may work if you just wanna aim for as many lays as you want without caring about emotional/mental compatibility (which is essential for long term relationship regardless of type)

    I wouldn’t consider this site a dating site for learning how to be a advanced dater and discovering compatibility on a first date.  It’s getting to sex very quickly, ideally by the second date while spending very little money.  Someone who is advanced would be someone who gets to sex very quickly, spends very little, and then keeps them coming back for more a high percentage of the time.

    Anyways, I’ve never encountered a problem getting any women to get over her nervousness and begin to open up and talk.  Maybe when i was first starting out I didn’t understand how to do that but at this point it’s like shooting fish in a barrel.  I can’t remember the last time I had a woman so nervous, shy, or uncomfortable that she didn’t talk.  Part of that is the other tactics you employ like flirting, touch and getting as close as possible.  Time of day, day of the week, location of the date, how you look in person versus pictures, and your frame can all have an effect.  This is only one part, but an important one.

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