I’m not sure when it started, but I think it started with Raquel Welch.

It was the late 1980s and I was about 15 years old. Some kind of award show was on TV and my dad was watching it. I sat down on the couch and watched a little with him, having nothing else better to do.

Then a woman came onto the stage to present the next award. The instant I saw her, my brain twisted into knots, unsure of what to do or how to react.

I could tell she was much older than me. She was in her late 40s. That meant she was over triple my age. My brain registered all of this, that this was, to me, an old lady. Not only could she have been my mom, she was actually much older than my mom.

At the same time, she was hot as balls, and my lust blasted up to a ten. Her face was perfect and feminine. Her eyes were beautiful and exotic, like those of a cat. Her skin was perfect, better than even many of the oily-skinned teenage girls at my school. Her tits were gigantic and perfect. Her waist narrow, her stomach flat, her body trim and fit, yet her hips were womanly and perfectly curved.

I sat there with my eyes wide, lusting and desiring this woman who was old enough to be my grandmother. My body didn’t know what to do.

“Who is that?” I asked my dad. I really had no idea. She was famous before my time.

My dad, on the other hand, knew exactly who she was. He had grown up in the 60s when she was a world-famous sex symbol.

He smiled, and with reverence, he said, “That’s Raquel Welch.”

I turned back to the TV, still stunned at what I was seeing, and how my body was reacting to what I was seeing.

In high school, I remember so many times, being frustrated looking at the teenage girls my age with their flat chests, small boobs, and narrow, boy-like hips. Yes, there were some teenage girls who were blessed with more mature-looking, womanly bodies, but often they weren’t in the room.

So, I did what a lot of teenage boys secretly do; I started lusting after my female teachers instead. Most of my teachers were old or ugly, but a few were presentable, and I found myself admiring their full hips, full asses, and womanly bodies that many (or most) of the girls in the classroom didn’t have.

That’s when I became the male version of a Type 2 VYW. I was officially into older women. Teenage girls were girls. I wanted a woman.

Whenever out in the world as a teenage boy, I found myself lusting after women in their 30s or early 40s far more often than I did lusting after girls my age. I would even find myself asking girls my age about their moms, and if they were hot. One of my biggest teenage sexual fantasies back then was to have sex with one of my teachers or one of my friends’ moms.

It’s no surprise that I would eventually lose my virginity in my early 20s to a married woman in her early 40s who had a son who was around my age. Not only was it a life-long teenage dream to finally lose my virginity, but doing so with a woman like that was, quite literally, a dream come true. It was not like I “settled” for an older woman just to lose my V-card. Oh no. An older woman, who was about her age and looked almost exactly like her (she looked just like those teachers in high school I wanted so badly) and was exactly  what I wanted back then. Having sex with her for about a year was truly one of the highlights of my young life.

We talk a lot about younger women. And, oh yes, younger women are fantastic if you don’t mind (and properly manage) the downsides. All of my current FBs are younger women (under the age of 24), and I’m sure I’ll be seeing younger women in some capacity for the rest of my life. I have an entire book on how older men can date younger women, and I think having that skill is important for most Alpha Male 2.0s over the age of 35.

I’ve also talked a great deal about all the ASD problems with women over the age of 33. How they get angry if you try to have sex on the second date when women under 33 have no problem with it. How they demand monogamy or girlfriend status much sooner in the relationship than women under 33 do. How their provider hunter desires are often on overdrive and uncontrollable. All of those things are true.

That all being said, older women not only have their place, but are great… again, provided you don’t mind and properly manage the downsides (just like with younger women!).

Despite the fact that most of the women I’ve been with (approximately 55%) were and are under the age of 24, I have dated many women between the ages of 33 and 50 (and even a few over 50) as both FB and MLTR over the years, and I had a great time with almost all of them. When I made the decision to settle down with an OLTR wife, I could have chosen to do that with a woman of any age, yet I purposely decided that I wanted someone in her mid 30s or so, as long as she was still young-looking, attractive, and had at least comparatively less ASD than typical over-33 women (then I met Pink Firefly and that’s exactly what I got; that’s how the universe works). I’m actually talking to someone now about possibly being an FB, and she’s my age (late 40s), just to experiment a little.

Despite all the younger women in my life, I find older women, as in women over the age of 33, super attractive, both physically and intellectually. As long as they don’t get fat, and as long as they don’t let too much of the typical over-30 female stress, negativity, and Dominant tendencies invade their behavioral patterns, I think they’re great. I always have.

The only difference is that when I hit age 35 and adopted the Alpha 2.0 lifestyle, I added younger women into the mix as well. Those of you who know my history know what I did. My stages went something like this:

  • As a young beta male, I was only attracted to older women (at least for the most part). Lost my virginity to one, dated a few, then married one.
  • Got divorced at age 35 because long-term monogamy doesn’t work, started dating women my age and slightly older (30s and 40s).
  • Several years later, started experimenting with dating women as young as 18 and made that work as well. Continued to date women of all ages.
  • Stopped dating women over the age of 33, not because I wasn’t attracted to them (I was!) but instead because I found that statistically, I could get to sex much faster and with less money and hassle with women under the age of 33 (because of less ASD).
  • Occasionally added women over 33 back into the mix as exceptions to the rule.
  • Decided I wanted to get OLTR married to a woman in her mid-thirties but have young FBs on the side as well, and did exactly that.

If you only want younger women in your life because you are “only” attracted to younger women, I think that’s fine, but I think you’re making a mistake. I would say the same thing to men who say the opposite; those guys who think it’s “gross” to date younger women or don’t understand how a man could carry on a conversation with a much younger woman, thus sticking to only older women.

Part of the beauty of the Alpha Male 2.0 life is that you can do whatever the hell you want, even if you’re married or have a serious girlfriend. You can experience it all. You might as well. Why not?

And to those more delusional red pill guys who scream about over-30 women instantly being disgusting because their “ovaries are dried up,” you guys are fucking idiots. Listen, fucktards: I didn’t say have babies with these women, I said have sex with these women. Look at pics of Salma Hayek (age 52) here , Jennifer Anniston (age 50) here , Sandra Bullock (age 54) here , or Jennifer Lopez (age 49) here. Stop trying to bullshit me about ovaries and look me in the eye and tell me you wouldn’t hit that.

Shut up. You would. And you’d love it. That’s my point.

If you really want your mind blown, take a look at Christie Brinkley here at, get ready for this, age 65. I’d hit that in a second and likely so would you, even if you’re way younger than me.

And don’t give me this “but those are celebrities” stuff either. As I’ve talked about in the past, there are plenty of women in their 30s or 40s (or even perhaps older) in your normal, day-to-day life who are plenty attractive to you, even in America where most women get fat. Most does not mean all. Pink Firefly is as white American as they come, about to turn 40, and she’s a tiny stick (though with big boobs).

My advice, okay my opinion is that you should lay out where over-33 women fit into your life (FBs, MLTR, OLTR, whatever) and have a few. Or one. Whatever you want. Don’t think that just because they’re over 30 they’re automatically gross or that the ASD is too high a bar to overcome, since neither is accurate for all older women.

If you’re an older guy, yes, you’re going to have some provider hunter ASD to fight and meet-to-sex times are going to be a little longer. Just plan on this in advance.

If you’re a younger guy, play up the “poor, cute, younger man” card to attract the cougars. It works like a charm if you do it correctly. Read this for more info.

I have two articles on dating over-33 women here and here. And don’t just date older women either. Throw some 22 year-olds in there too. They’re fun too, just for very different reasons.

Variety is the spice of life, folks. Alpha 2.0 is about abundance. Don’t limit yourself.

I certainly don’t. And I’m a happy boy.

255 Comments on “Older Women

  1. For FBs and MLTRs I’d say it’s not necessary to set age limitations. Especially for FBs.

    In the case of OLTRs, I think the optimal age for most is between the ages of 25-33. Younger than 25 is problematic because they are pretty much unreliable for an emotionally serious relationship.

    Older than 33 is very dangerous because they are in a hurry to settle down. Their priority is not how attractive any more. It doesn’t matter how alpha 2.0 you can be, you’ll never be sure she’s with you because it’s their last chance before her looks fade or because she genuinely feels attracted to you. Even if she really likes you, she won’t be able to take the need to settle down out of her head.

    With a mid twenties year old you also don’t have 100% certainty but your chances that she’s truly attracted to you are way higher and, most importantly, you got a lot more years of her with a young body. 10 years for a woman is a lot. A lot. Men age much better.

    Very attractive women in their late 30’s and 40’s are exceptions to the rule but even if you find one, why would you prefer her rather than a woman still in her 20s and with everything in its right place?

    For an OLTR relationship, given two women with more or less the same level of attractiveness, compatibility, etc. I’d choose a late 20s before a late 30s one every single time.

    BD: besides, you already have kids and for you this is a situation that you’ve dealt with a long time ago. PF doesn’t want kids (right?). I think you are giving advice (or opinion) based strongly in these two facts. Over 33 women are in a completely, absolutely different situation than the younger ones.

  2. One little hack I discovered since I’m not interested in having kids is to date slightly older women who are done having kids and have been married before.  They are typically over the Disney fantasy of marriage by then and are more willing to go along with my lifestyle.  They don’t want more kids so that’s a non-issue as well.

    Most women want to try being married at least once and have kids, I’d say 90% at least.   They want that queen for a day feeling with a wedding and all the bullshit that goes with it (engagement party, shower, bachelorette party, etc…)-they’ll never get more attention and ass kissing than during that process.  Often they even get depressed once the wedding day is over because all that time and planning is done in a flash.  It’s one of the main life milestones in their mind and they won’t rest to they’ve done it once.  And unless she’s over 40 or has already had kids, she will want that as well.  Don’t believe women who say they don’t want kids-they’re just saying what you want to hear, that goes double for any women under 30.

    So guys if you have no desire for a legal marriage or kids, stick with the older women for MLTR/OLTR that have already done these things.  Keep the youngins for FB‘s.

  3. Mid-30’s here and I have no problems with the over 30 women.  My issue is the younger ones and I am reading the Younger Woman Manual right now.

    With over 30’s I have mainly stuck to married women who are on their way out of a marriage or perhaps just unhappy but remaining married.  I have no issue with it since they will be fucking someone other than the husband if it isn’t me, so might as well be me then.  Eventually, if they are ready to leave their husband, they usually get a supportive beta male boyfriend on their way out to fight their battles, LSNFTE me, then have a bunch of drama and come back to me after the divorce is over.  This keeps me out of the target of the husband too, because usually he never knows about me and only finds out about the beta male who is fighting her battles.

    I also avoid the divorce drama so I am happy to be LSNFTE by them during that period.  When they come back, they are usually so frazzled by the dating scene and how the guys they dated are “worse than their ex husband” they will proclaim “You were right, relationships just are too stressful and don’t work, I should have listened to you.”  And then they come back to me.

    I typically watch from a distance as they continually dip back in to the dating scene again, at first LSNFTE me a few months, then eventually they just keep fucking me the entire time while they date other guys, maybe occasionally LSNFTE me when they find one they think is a keeper, but it usually doesn’t last long.  They make great FB for me because they are constantly unsatisfied by the dating scene.  The only problem is they aren’t usually long term reliable consistently, but it doesn’t matter because I don’t usually have to go more than a month or two before they return.  I have one that is going on 5 years, so even though not consistent, it is long lasting which is nice.

  4. Yeah older women can be hot, but :
    – most I find are pretty ugly and despite being 54, I have very little in common with them (as I’ve never married and never would and don’t have kids), because I get on way better with younger women and always have, since I’m into everything in modern pop culture that most older women aren’t into.

    – aren’t so easy to find, as I personally only like ones with big tits, that not all have. 
    – the large majority tend to let themselves go, don’t exercise, have huge ASD and all the over 33 negativity BD has spoken about multiple times previously.  The ones who are hot, look after themselves and aren’t married, are super picky and are pursued both by younger and older guys.

    I did meet one 7 years ago who was 61 at the time, was twice divorced and super hot, but she was incredibly flaky when it came to meeting up and seemed to be more after a guy in her age group.  She ended remarrying a 3rd time.

    I personally don’t find Jennifer Aniston, Sandra Bullock, Jennifer Lopez sexually attractive at all. Christie Brinkley absolutely, but she’s a rare genetic freak for her age.

    If you’re a younger guy wanting to fuck older women, rather than use Tinder or Bumble, I’d suggest going on Cougar Life and paying the membership fee, as at least most of the older women who are on it look after themselves and haven’t let themselves go.

  5. My problem isn’t so much with older women, but with women who have been pregnant and delivered a baby once or more in their life: the overwhelming majority have significant damage on their belly and it does look gross to me. Same often goes for the boobs. Thing is, a majority of older women already have delivered kids.

    I did date a 49 or 50 year old childfree woman, and she was physically at least as hot as young mothers in their 20s. The physical deterioration was just on different places of the body, mostly face wrinkles, instead belly and boobs baby damages. And she was more interesting intellectually and sexually. But I prefer childless women 18 to 35. In my experience only 2% or less of women who have already been pregnant have no significant baby damage on their body.

    A lot of VYW feel quite dumb, but their body is in its prime for me.

    The important thing is to experience a complementary variety of women, that is what makes the dating experience richer in non monogamous relationships. And that’s also why I’d feel miserable in a monogamous relationship, no matter how hot, smart and sweet the woman.

  6. Not really on topic for this post, but surely on topic for your website…. Unbelievable how less responsibilities some females are willing to take…

    …And? All stuff like that means to me is that Alpha 1 fuckboys are too stupid to use protection and they’re getting called out. Big deal. I like it when Alpha 1s are mocked. Cuz then they get butthurt and it reveals how they haven’t really broken out of being beta and overly emotional. Do you really think an alpha 2 would care about this? Nope.

    Bruh, chicks aren’t programmed to take responsibility. It isn’t part of their genetic code. They aren’t natural born leaders like us dudes. Sure its awesome when you come across one who does, but there’s not chance in hell I would ever expect them to because whenever a chick decides to take responsibility for her life she’s going against hundreds of thousands of years of societal and genetic programming.

    Back on the topic of this article, I wonder if there is a difference between 33+s who are slightly overweight and meh looking and 33+s who are really good looking? Most of the meh looking 33+s who I’ve been with are really horny and are very willing to have sex on the 2nd date (and sometimes the first).

  7. I fuck older women (over 40).  For the most part they want a relationship.  I don’t promise one but I make sure while we are hanging out that I’m fun, well groomed, clean, classy, considerate, caring but yet put off a player vibe.  I shoot for knocking their socks off in the bedroom.  Lots of foreplay, seduction, aggression and spontaneity.  Some older women will go for “the talk” very soon and some will not.  The ones who have usually add in a loophole because in the end they just want sex but add in an “but” so they don’t feel like a slut for banging you on the first or second date.  Usually more will not.  I genuinely attempt to care about them as a person, form some kind of bond while maintaining a firm “no” on relationships.  Because older women have so many relationship issues the rebound on these women are near 100% (ones that don’t arewere too much trouble anyways and tend to go for the talk very quickly).  They come back because 1.  Sex is fantastic 2.  You’re well groomed  3.  You won’t give them drama or demands  4.  3 is important because they’re constantly on breaks form the their bfs and need to fuck  5.  You care and will listen  6.  They know that after you’ve made them cum they can go back to their ex (what they know they will do anyways) and you won’t say anything or cause any drama.  7.  You are known and they don’t have to go back on a dating site which for them is a horrible experience.

    I can get at least 2 lifetime older women from every blitz.  Younger women on the other hand are more desirable sexually but will just fall off the face of the earth.  Go missing (literally had one officially go missing, lol).  Change their numbers because they can’t pay their cell bills, get married, engaged, get pregnant, move, and etc.  So it’s harder to keep them around in my experience.

  8. @John

    “Younger women on the other hand are more desirable sexually but will just fall off the face of the earth”

    Very true and the biggest pitfall with young girls.  It’s just something you have to accept and keep them in the FB category, knowing full well they won’t stick around.  I’ve seen this same exact thing with younger FB‘s I’ve had-they just ghost out of nowhere and also very true about the phone # thing.  They are often changing numbers hence the all to common “new #/phone who dis?”.

    Again just keep them in the proper category, have fun with them and assume it’s temporary.

  9. For FBs and MLTRs I’d say it’s not necessary to set age limitations. Especially for FBs.

    I never said nor recommended this. I just mentioned ages as examples.

    FBs and MLTRs can be any age you want, from age 18 (or legal age of consent) all the way to 70s (if you’re into that kind of thing).

    In the case of OLTRs, I think the optimal age for most is between the ages of 25-33.

    That depends purely on the man. His age, his preferences, where he is in life. For you age 25-33 is ideal. For but someone else it would not be.

    Younger than 25 is problematic because they are pretty much unreliable for an emotionally serious relationship.

    For OLTR I completely agree, as I explained here.

    Older than 33 is very dangerous because they are in a hurry to settle down. Their priority is not how attractive any more. It doesn’t matter how alpha 2.0 you can be, you’ll never be sure she’s with you because it’s their last chance before her looks fade or because she genuinely feels attracted to you. Even if she really likes you, she won’t be able to take the need to settle down out of her head.

    I’m unclear what logistical difference any of that makes in terms of what actually occurs in real life. She’s a girl. The odds are quite high she’ll leave at any age (under 60), regardless of the internal/emotional reasons she has to be with you.

    Very attractive women in their late 30’s and 40’s are exceptions to the rule but even if you find one, why would you prefer her rather than a woman still in her 20s and with everything in its right place?

    As I said, the answer to that question will be very different for any man. For you, you wouldn’t, because you want someone younger. For me, I want someone with a more evolved and mature personality as well as someone who is less likely to change drastically in the future.  And again, you may totally disagree with that answer, and that’s fine… for you.

    you already have kids and for you this is a situation that you’ve dealt with a long time ago. PF doesn’t want kids (right?).

    It was a very difficult decision for her, but that’s correct.

    I think you are giving advice (or opinion) based strongly in these two facts. Over 33 women are in a completely, absolutely different situation than the younger ones.

    Incorrect. I am not giving advice of “make sure your OLTR is over age 35.” I’m just saying what I did. If you strongly desire several children, then yes, you should settle down with a woman quite younger than age 35.

    I strongly suggest you go back and slowly re-read the article. You’ve assumed I said at least three items I did not say.

    Christue Brinkmey OMGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!

    65!!!!!!!!

    I’d hit it.

    One little hack I discovered since I’m not interested in having kids is to date slightly older women who are done having kids and have been married before.  They are typically over the Disney fantasy of marriage by then and are more willing to go along with my lifestyle.  They don’t want more kids so that’s a non-issue as well.

    I partially agree. They have less provider hunter desires, yes, but they still have shitloads of Disney bullshit. They’re still hardcore for monogamy, getting married, having a stupid wedding, and living a picket-fence lifestyle. They just don’t need any kids (which is a plus) and don’t need or want as much financial support (which is another plus). But they’re still women with all the usual Societal Programming (barring exceptions to the rule).

    Can you comment more about how you think the universe works that way?

    Sure. But not here. That’s off-topic.

    I fuck older women (over 40). For the most part they want a relationship.

    Correct.

    I’ve had a few 0ver-40 FBs but almost all of them who lasted had a serious boyfriend of some kind so their relationship box was already full. The ones who were single often grew uncomfortable and did the ‘ol LSNFTE, as someone else reported above.

    MLTRs with over-40s are doable though.

  10. I never said nor recommended this. I just mentioned ages as examples.

    Yeah, I said that to make sure we were talking specifically about OLTRs.

    I’m unclear what logistical difference any of that makes in terms of what actually occurs in real life. She’s a girl. The odds are quite high she’ll leave at any age (under 60), regardless of the internal/emotional reasons she has to be with you.

    It’s not as easy as “she’s a girl”. , you’ve set a clear line about how you consider women before and after age 33.

    You usually say (even in this article) that from age 33 onwards, a woman’s ASD spikes, they become more and more picky and basically, they demand almost instant commitment. I’ve been reading your blog(s) for many years and unless I’m very mistaken, you never talk about the why this happens. I think you said once that girls are just like that? I don’t quite remember, so I’m probably wrong on this one.

    Anyways, women have a problem men don’t have: a relatively short fertility window with a clear beginning and a very clear end. They have to make a decision and it has to be soon. For a woman, time is always, always against her. Almost all of them want kids. When they say they don’t want kids and they’ve reached a certain age that translates to “it’s too late for me so I say this to protect my ego”. If they’re still young they are saying “I haven’t found the one and/or I want to ride the cock carrousel more time”. You know, to “know myself”…

    So. When they are into their 30s, even if they don’t want kids, their fertility window is closing and so is their looks. For a woman, her appearance is absolutely essential because they’ve relied on it all her life to achieve her beloved preferential treatment, double standards, pussy pass, etc. Which means she needs to “settle down” with a man as soon as possible before her looks fade even more. The worse the looks, the worse the man she’ll be able to catch.

    That’s why they are in such a hurry when they begin a relationship unless they’ve already settled with someone. In this case is easier because they look for the sex and thrill their betas will never be able to provide to her.

    But, if she’s single, she’s on a mission. That’s why I prefer younger women. Because her priority is how much she’s attracted to me, which gives me much more confidence to (possibly) start an OLTR relationship with her if the rest checks out. So reason 1.

    The argument I made before about her having 10 more years of being young does not admit discussion. So reason 2.

    And, what you said about maturity, unless she’s an astronomical exception to the rule, chances are she will be the same at 26 than at 36, except 10 more years of relationship failures and worse character. Women are not men. Men tend to evolve to the better, women not so much. So reason 3.

    There’s at least three very good reasons to choose younger women for OLTRs that are not based purely on personal preference.

  11. Its EXTREMELY difficulty to find older women who are as attractive physically as younger women.  I have had enough enough experience so as to be able to differentiate them based on skin texture and smell.

    Younger women smell better….naturally.  18-23 – they smell like berries.  Thereafter, the smell fades away to a mild sourness in the 35+.  The skin texture goes from flawlessly supple to dry….same with the hair.

    Furthermore, the older ones start to get dry in the vagina and dont self lubricate as easily…..the drying starts at about 32 or so.

    Older women aren’t really worth these downsides assuming you can easily access younger women. If you can’t….then thats a different story.

     

  12. now that im pondering there was a cocktail waitress at one of my last jobs who was super sweet 40s ish tall brunette, glasses, all american face, and boobs too big for television. like when you’re with a girl who has nice big boobs, and this woman comes along and she has huge Lindsey Pelas zone boobs but fit body. ayeyieyie .

    And now that im thinking, she was pretty much the only one that knew how to talk to me more or less like a normal human and a lot of the other girls seemed a little bit more all over the place or a little too forward sometimes for being technically a corporate environment. ah casino jobs. good fun.

     

    whenever I’m secure from any health ruining economic recessions im not opposed. this certainly jogged my memory.

    so many adventures to be had

     

     

  13. You usually say (even in this article) that from age 33 onwards, a woman’s ASD spikes, they become more and more picky and basically, they demand almost instant commitment.

    Correct.

    I’ve been reading your blog(s) for many years and unless I’m very mistaken, you never talk about the why this happens. I think you said once that girls are just like that? I don’t quite remember, so I’m probably wrong on this one.

    I haven’t gone into detail about it because I’m not a doctor, psychologist, or anthropologist so I really don’t know for sure. My educated guess is that it’s a combination of biology (the biological clock and so on), and Societal Programming combined with fear (“Oh no I’m getting old!!! I need a man NOW before I get TOO old!!!”).

    The bottom line is that frankly, unlike most other manosphere / redpill bloggers, I don’t really care why it happens. (That’s true of almost all female behavior; I just don’t give a rat fuck.) I just know it does and modify my behaviors accordingly.

    But, if she’s single, she’s on a mission. That’s why I prefer younger women. Because her priority is how much she’s attracted to me, which gives me much more confidence to (possibly) start an OLTR relationship with her if the rest checks out. So reason 1.

    Again, I don’t understand that reason at all. I agree with everything you said about over-33s but I don’t know why what you just stated is a benefit to you in an OLTR vs an older woman.

    If your answer is that you just prefer younger women, that’s fine. But your explanation above doesn’t make any sense to me.

    And, what you said about maturity, unless she’s an astronomical exception to the rule, chances are she will be the same at 26 than at 36

    I disagree completely. I agree she’ll be close (since the time of change is between 16 and 25ish), but not the same.

    except 10 more years of relationship failures

    That’s very true, and a problem.

    and worse character.

    Worse character? What the hell? Disagree completely. I’d need to see your data on that. A woman more desperate for a serious boyfriend or marriage does not make her of less character.

    Women are not men. Men tend to evolve to the better, women not so much.

    Agree 100%, but I disagree that women in their 30s are more evil or deceptive than women in their 20s. I could almost make the opposite argument.

    There’s at least three very good reasons to choose younger women for OLTRs that are not based purely on personal preference.

    Your first reason doesn’t make any sense to me (feel free to elaborate and then maybe I’ll get it) and your second is factually wrong. I agree on the third one though; women tend not to evolve nearly as well as men; absolutely true and I’ve seen this many times.

    Younger women smell better….naturally. 18-23 – they smell like berries. Thereafter, the smell fades away to a mild sourness in the 35+. The skin texture goes from flawlessly supple to dry….same with the hair.

    I generally agree.

    Furthermore, the older ones start to get dry in the vagina and dont self lubricate as easily…..the drying starts at about 32 or so.

    Haha! Jesus, what? I have no idea what you’re talking about and I have literally never encountered anything like this, and I’ve had sex with a massive amount of women who were both younger and older.

    A recurring theme in this thread seems to be guys starting out by making some accurate and factual points about the negatives of older women, but then continuing into some weird nightmare la-la land.

    Older women aren’t really worth these downsides assuming you can easily access younger women.

    As I’ve said in this thread already, that depends on a man’s specific goals, which vary from man to man. Usually what you’re saying is accurate, but not always.

    Lindsey Pelas

    Haha, PF and I were just discussing Lindsey Pelas last night. Yummy in the tummy.

  14. A recurring theme in this thread seems to be guys starting out by making some accurate and factual points about the negatives of older women, but then continuing into some weird nightmare la-la land.

    lol I think like 85% of the whole manosphere acts that way haha.

  15. From the age of about 17 to 25, I only ever had sex with older women, at least five to seven years older and sometimes more. Now, in my fifties, I rarely end up with a woman over 35.

    This wasn’t a matter of policy, it’s just the way it turned out. But I think it’s a pretty good formula: older men / younger women; younger men / older women.

    Apart from anything else, I think men and women’s sex drive is mismatched. Women’s increases with age, men’s generally decreases. Added to that, an experienced older woman can teach a young man about how to treat a woman sexually – and he can use that knowledge to good advantage when he’s older with younger women who have never had sexually skilled partners (VERY common with women under 25 or even 30). When you’re a young man, it’s also quite acceptable to take gifts or expensive dinners from older women, when you’re older you can afford to be a bit generous.

    It’s a win-win configuration all the way.

  16. The bottom line is that frankly, unlike most other manosphere / redpill bloggers, I don’t really care why it happens. (That’s true of almost all female behavior; I just don’t give a rat fuck.) I just know it does and modify my behaviors accordingly.

    Well, it’s important. Very important, in fact and probably one the very few things you have not discussed/talked about yet in your blog. Hypergamy, the wall, and many more useful concepts.

    Again, I don’t understand that reason at all. I agree with everything you said about over-33s but I don’t know why what you just stated is a benefit to you in an OLTR vs an older woman.

    It’s what I’ve already said. For an OLTR to succeed as much as possible, you need her to be genuinely attracted to you as much as possible. This is extremely difficult with women over 33 because they are approaching the wall so you are not the priority but her situation: she needs you because you are pretty much her last chance to catch a guy before her looks fade. This is suboptimal. She’ll try to hide it as much as she can but it’s there.

    Quality of the guy a woman can have a serious relationship with = her looks (and more stuff obviously but mainly her looks). Unless she lowers the bar and aims for >50-55 yo. guys or younger betas which is not optimal for her. But here’s the problem: it’s too late for her unless she’s a genetic freak. And even if she was, 50+ year old Halle Berry has nothing to do, nothing, against a fairly good looking 30 yo.

    If she wants alpha quality and older than her but no too old she must be under 35 and I’d even say under 30.

    I’d be very surprised if you denied that. It’s biology.

    Agree 100%, but I disagree that women in their 30s are more evil or deceptive than women in their 20s. I could almost make the opposite argument.

    It’s not that they become evil or bad people or anything like that. They are in a hurry and for a good reason. Again, her priority is to save herself. For her you are a more like a tool. After 20+ years she finds herself in a “now or never” scenario. As in 4-5 years tops to have kids and/or settle down before it’s too late. She can not choose like she did 10 years before when she was at her prime.

    Do you really, honestly think “it’s ok” and that it doesn’t matter? I’ve been with women of all ages and the difference in attitude is huge. If she finds you good enough she tries as quickly as possible to consolidate the relationship because she needs you not because or only because she likes you. This is dangerous.

    In fact, the more years she has, chances are you will not be the most attractive guy she’s been with unless you are an extremely amazing über alpha. She’ll resent that and this will come back to you. Remember, the quality of the guys a woman can catch at age 25 will never, ever be as high. Your position in her ranking is not at the top when you begin dating her at 35 with a 99% chance. Whereas if she’s 25 and you are alpha enough, it’s very, very possible that you could be the best one on her list. That’s when she’s really on to you. And she’s 10 years younger. Win-win.

    Remember hypergamy.

  17. Younger women smell better….naturally.  18-23 – they smell like berries.  Thereafter, the smell fades away to a mild sourness in the 35+.  The skin texture goes from flawlessly supple to dry….same with the hair.

    Furthermore, the older ones start to get dry in the vagina and dont self lubricate as easily…..the drying starts at about 32 or so.

    holy fuck, is your only experience with older women fucking dead fat women in the morgue?  Like berries?  Lol ok.  No woman’s vagina smells like berries, lol.. just like your dick has never tasted like a lollipop, lol.

  18. @CSR

    You usually say (even in this article) that from age 33 onwards, a woman’s ASD spikes, they become more and more picky and basically, they demand almost instant commitment. I’ve been reading your blog(s) for many years and unless I’m very mistaken, you never talk about the why this happens.

    I actually think the reason is quite simple – more experience and less time to waste. In general, unfortunately, extended amount of sex before commitment increases emotional attachment for women, and decreases respect men have for the women in question. Couple of these and women get the hint, smart ones anyways. When a woman is younger, you can shrug these “failed” dates/relationships as an “experience” and move on, but as soon as you are looking for a potential father for your baby (mid to late 20’s and definitely over 33), you simply have less time to waste and you want to cut your losses sooner.

    I have many, many friends who have experienced this first hand – they sleep with a guy before commitment and the guy just views her as a fuck buddy and does not bother to get to know her (“why buy the cow when you milk it for free?” mentality). She starts acting desperate because she subconsciously starts to be emotionally attached the more she has sex with the guy (which kills the guy’s emotional attraction even more quickly). Just google “FWB feeling used” and you can read millions of poor heartbroken girls posting about their FWB not reciprocating their feelings (this is on the girls for accepting these kind of relationships, of course). So she meets the next guy (mostly of very similar credentials), simply delays sex until commitment and hints at commitment quickly after sex. She is much less desperate, then boom, the guy gets to know her, “respects” her, falls in love with her and they begin a serious relationship. Same chick. Different behavior. Better results. This, by the way, does not matter where the guys is within the alpha-beta spectrum. Madonna-whore complex and “slut shaming,” unfortunately, plagues majority of men.

    Just as older men “learn” from their dating experiences and curate their “games” based on women’s behaviors, older women also take a cue from men and curate their games accordingly. Believe me, ASD would be significantly lower if all men retained respect for women regardless of when we have sex with men or how many men you perceive we have had sex with.

  19. @SabrinaK

    I actually think the reason is quite simple – more experience and less time to waste.

    Less time to waste is enough. It’s biology 101. Their looks are fading, their fertility window (aka looks) is closing, the quality of the guys she has access to is decreasing more and more by the year.

    In general, unfortunately, extended amount of sex before commitment increases emotional attachment for women, and decreases respect men have for the women in question.

    It’s not emotional attachment for her, it’s anxiety. Her time is limited, she’s in a hurry. Time is always, always against women. It’s not a decrease in respect for men, it’s an increase of suspicion. Men subconsciously know the more partners she’s had, the lower the chances he’ll be the most attractive to her. It’s the biology instinct for “I’m providing resources for my kids or not?”.

    When a woman is younger, you can shrug these “failed” dates/relationships as an “experience” and move on

    Because she still has years before her looks fade. “I can still catch an alpha”.

    but as soon as you are looking for a potential father for your baby (mid to late 20’s and definitely over 33), you simply have less time to waste and you want to cut your losses sooner.

    As soon as her looks start to fade she has to lower her expectations for the first time in her life and the clock is ticking so she needs to find someone. Fast. it’s not “the best” anymore.

    “why buy the cow when you milk it for free?” mentality)

    All men are polygamous by nature. It’s not a mentality, we’re wired like that. Sex first, then we’ll see.

    She starts acting desperate because she subconsciously starts to be emotionally attached the more she has sex with the guy (which kills the guy’s emotional attraction even more quickly)

    No, she’s desperate because she’s consciously in a hurry. And the guy knows that unless he’s an idiot.

    She is much less desperate, then boom, the guy gets to know her, “respects” her, falls in love with her and they begin a serious relationship. Same chick. Different behavior. Better results.

    She is not less desperate, she’s hiding it. Good plan, unless the guy knows what’s actually going on here. And he should.

    This, by the way, does not matter where the guys is within the alpha-beta spectrum.

    Of course it matters. It always does. What matters is: is she able to choose like she did when she was at her prime? Nope. As I said, it’s not a matter of what she wants anymore but what’s left.

    Believe me, ASD would be significantly lower if all men retained respect for women regardless of when we have sex with men or how many men you perceive we have had sex with.

    You are not going to change your sexual strategy (hypergamy) and men won’t do that either. Deal with it. It’s not about respect, it’s the fact that a man in his 30s-40s has much more sexual market value. But you already know this, obviously.

    See how easy it is to translate what a woman means when you know how they really work?

  20. Believe me, ASDwould be significantly lower if all men retained respect for women regardless of when we have sex with men or how many men you perceive we have had sex with.

    It’s a 2-way street.  Women aren’t stupid.  They fuck a lot of alpha males they know are players and then are shocked when they pump and dump.  Then blame the guy.  Like being mad when they realize their dog barks.  Look I fuck older women. I come off as a player (I’m over 40) and they still fuck me.  First date.  They can’t help themselves (not me specifically but guys like me) at any age.  Women will always fuck the same type guys very quickly and slow play the other types.  No matter what age.  In the end It’s the hope and denial.  Hope I’ll be different and denial that Usually guys like me are not.  I’m my case they’re shocked when I don’t pump and dump.  But not so shocked when I say I don’t want exclusivity.  They still continue to fuck me.

    But sometimes guys want a relationship, like the girl but after spending time with the girl and fucking her he just didn’t like what he experienced.  So he moves on. Women do the exact same thing to men all the time. Even older women.

  21. @CSR

    My comment is about *why* “older women” ask for commitment sooner than younger women, and I cited (1) experience from men in their 20’s when women learn men disrespect women who sleep with them too quickly or too long without commitment; and (2) time running out (especially for kids) and slowly balancing out SMV/RMV for men and women in their 30’s (women’s RMV is higher than men’s in their 20’s). You seem to think it is only the latter, and not the former. And rest of your comments are pumping your chest about how men in their 30s-40s have higher SMV/RMV than women in their 30s-40s.

    So your only disagreement with me seems to be that you want to argue a spike in an older women’s ASD (or asking for commitment faster) has *nothing* to do with women learning about men’s Madonna-whore complex tendencies in their dating lives in their 20s?

    It’s not emotional attachment for her, it’s anxiety. Her time is limited, she’s in a hurry.

    I’m currently 26, and the female friends I am talking about who get emotionally attached to guys they are fucking without commitment are all much under the age of 33 (early – mid 20s). Believe me, many girls who cry about getting their heart broken by their FWB’s are in their early 20s and not “in a hurry.”

     

  22. @John

    Women aren’t stupid.  They fuck a lot of alpha males they know are players and then are shocked when they pump and dump.  Then blame the guy.  Like being mad when they realize their dog barks.

    Huh? Women who act like this *are* stupid, and not learning from their past interactions with men. Don’t you agree that being mad when dog barks is stupid? This is why I’m saying smarter women “with game” and who want a serious partner adheres to not fucking *any guys* quickly.

    Look I fuck older women. I come off as a player (I’m over 40) and they still fuck me. First date. They can’t help themselves (not me specifically but guys like me) at any age.

    I was responding to the comment why “older women” resist sex, have higher ASD, and demand exclusivity/commitment more quickly. So if you’re in the view that all women have same level of ASD regardless of age, I am not sure I agree with your statement either, but my previous comment was geared towards the argument older women resist first/second date sex more so than younger women.

    But sometimes guys want a relationship, like the girl but after spending time with the girl and fucking her he just didn’t like what he experienced.  So he moves on.

    My point is, the majority of men do not count the girls who slept with them too early/too long without commitment as “relationship material”. Sure, Caleb will say true Alpha 2.0’s respect women regardless of when she has sex with him/ how many partners she has had before, and the only reason why a woman is FB instead of OLTR is because “after spending time with the girl and fucking her he just didn’t like what he experienced.” But even with Caleb’s generous estimate of 10% of “Alpha 2.0’s”, the remaining 90% of men are territorial and plagued with Madonna-whore complex of varying degrees. All women will eventually curate their behaviors to gain respect, love, and a serious relationship from these 90% of men, resulting in “female game” of higher ASD.

  23. My comment is about *why* “older women” ask for commitment sooner than younger women, and I cited (1) experience from men in their 20’s when women learn men disrespect women who sleep with them too quickly or too long without commitment; and (2) time running out (especially for kids) and slowly balancing out SMV/RMV for men and women in their 30’s (women’s RMV is higher than men’s in their 20’s). You seem to think it is only the latter, and not the former.

    You are trying again the disrespect card when I’ve already told you it’s not that. We are not obliged to commit because you want to “collect the benefits” after x time fucking a man, the same way you are not obliged to fuck a guy if you don’t consider him attractive enough. Sorry, it’s biology.

    And rest of your comments are pumping your chest about how men in their 30s-40s have higher SMV/RMV than women in their 30s-40s.

    Which is absolutely right. In fact, yes, it’s both SMV and RMV. Women have it all with zero effort but limited time (20 years). Men have to put all the effort since day one but we have more years to collect what was sown. Sorry, it’s biology.

    So your only disagreement with me seems to be that you want to argue a spike in an older women’s ASD (or asking for commitment faster) has *nothing* to do with women learning about men’s Madonna-whore complex tendencies in their dating lives in their 20s?

    Absolutely nothing. If women retained her looks and fertility until their 50s they would behave exactly the same way for 20 more years.

    I’m currently 26, and the female friends I am talking about who get emotionally attached to guys they are fucking without commitment are all much under the age of 33 (early – mid 20s). Believe me, many girls who cry about getting their heart broken by their FWB’s are in their early 20s and not “in a hurry.”

    Oh, I believe y0u. When they are at their early to mid 20s they are not in a hurry (yet), they feel bad because they wanted these FBs to become LTRs. Almost 99% of the time it’s because they are alphas. They can fuck them (and, if they are smart and attractive enough settle down with them) because these women are their prime years.

    When they reach their mid 30s and early 40s their problem will be that there wont be a way for them to settle down with these top quality guys.

  24. @CSR

    You are trying again the disrespect card when I’ve already told you it’s not that.

    Most men *do* disrespect women when she sleeps with them too fast, or if they think she has had “too many” sexual partners before him. Why do you think the term “slut” (a dictionary definition of slut is “a woman who has many casual sexual partners”) is an insult? *You* can tell me you’re not like that, but my point still stands.

    Absolutely nothing. If women retained her looks and fertility until their 50s they would behave exactly the same way for 20 more years.

    Hahaha. If you truly think a SMV/RMV (based on age) is the *only* thing that dictates how men and women behave in the dating market, you’re in for a big surprise. Just as Caleb teaches men step-by-step “game” methods to get laid with women and keep them around, women also have strategies to screen out “players” and getting quality men to be in serious relationship with – and they work, regardless of age.

    The same 22 year old girl who sleeps with a “alpha” guy too quickly, acts needy, and get disrespected and dumped, *can* settle down with the equivalent “alpha” guy 6 months later by making him wait and “chase” her. (with no change in her looks or fertility; equivalent SMV/RMV). Female (and male) “game,” especially calibrated to fit how majority of the opposite sex behave, works brilliantly, and is a huge part of the dating world beyond a simple age-and-looks-driven SMV/RMV. I am saying this as a woman who is likely at the peak of her RMV (and likely SMV too, at least for me personally, as I look a hell lot better now than I did at 21; but I have Asian genes) and about to be engaged.

  25. @CSR: why would it be important? It’s “important” to me in the sense that I’ve always been interested in explaining human behavior in nature-nurture terms, but from a POV of maximizing personal long term happiness, you can perfectly afford not to know the explanation. As BD put it, “I just know it does and modify my behaviors accordingly”. The only real importance of it is anthropological – which doesn’t mean it isn’t interesting, just that you don’t need it for 2.0 purposes.

  26. @CSR

    When they reach their mid 30s and early 40s their problem will be that there wont be a way for them to settle down with these top quality guys.

    Well, Pink Firefly is in her mid 30s, and seemed to have settled down with Caleb, a “Alpha 2.0.” Either Pink Firefly is not in her mid-late 30s, or Caleb, whose blog posts you are following, is not a “top quality guy”. See how your argument makes very little sense?

  27. @SabrinaK

    Most men *do* disrespect women when she sleeps with them too fast, or if they think she has had “too many” sexual partners before him. Why do you think the term “slut” (a dictionary definition of slut is “a woman who has many casual sexual partners”) is an insult? *You* can tell me you’re not like that, but my point still stands.

    Again and for the last time it is not disrespect, it’s biology and I won’t explain that again. The term slut is used mostly by women against women, by the way.

    Hahaha. If you truly think a SMV/RMV (based on age) is the *only* thing that dictates how men and women behave in the dating market, you’re in for a big surprise.

    No shit? I didn’t say the only thing, but it’s the most important.

    women also have strategies to screen out “players” and getting quality men to be in serious relationship with – and they work, regardless of age.

    Incorrect. Age favors men until they reach 45-50, age is against women since their mid thirties. Fact.

    The same 22 year old girl who sleeps with a “alpha” guy too quickly, acts needy, and get disrespected and dumped, *can* settle down with the equivalent “alpha” guy 6 months later by making him wait and “chase” her.

    Exactly. 6 months later, not when she’s 35-40. Nice try.

    I am saying this as a woman who is likely at the peak of her RMV (and likely SMV too…)

    Yep, this is the reason you are saying this.

    Well, Pink Firefly is in her mid 30s, and seemed to have settled down with Caleb, a “Alpha 2.0.” Either Pink Firefly is not in her mid-late 30s, or Caleb, whose blog posts you are following, is not a “top quality guy”. See how your argument makes very little sense?

    PF is about to turn 40 and she has decided not have kids which was a hard decision for her as BD has said in these comments (absolutely critical) and BD had kids a long time ago already (absolutely criticaland BD is Alpha 2.0 and PF still has the looks (not impossible but very difficult) and PF probably matches 99% with what BD looks for in terms of behavior and compatibility.

    See how many checks? My point is, BD should think more of the guys who still don’t have kids (vast majority of his readers) and the fact that 99.99% of women want kids before saying that it’s perfectly fine to have an OLTR with under and over 33 year old women as if the only thing to dealt with is her attitude.

    @Antekirtt

    you can perfectly afford not to know the explanation

    Of course you can’t. From 25-33 is the sweet spot to have an OLTR because of the reasons I’ve stated in the comments.

  28. @CSR

    No shit? I didn’t say the only thing, but it’s the most important.

    and

    Absolutely nothing. If women retained her looks and fertility until their 50s they would behave exactly the same way for 20 more years.

    Bad argument there, honey. Older women’s spiking ASD is not just their SMV declining, it’s *also* women curating their behavior to most men’s slut shaming tendencies. You’re grasping at straws so I proved my point.

    Of course you can’t. From 25-33 is the sweet spot to have an OLTR because of the reasons I’ve stated in the comments.

    You know I actually agree with you, for a man who want children, a OLTR with a 25-33 year old woman will be the most optimal for you guys. But as I have long argued in one of the previous posts, a smart and attractive woman (between the age of 25-33) with lots of options who want to have children and settle down have almost zero incentive to get into an OLTR relationship with a man (who does not offer financial support) especially when a traditional marriage is the societal norm. So you’ll have a much more difficult time getting into an OLTR with such women (than Caleb who does not want more children), or you’ll have to sacrifice a lot on the quality of your OLTR partner.

    But – if you manage to snag a gorgeous and intelligent 27-year-old woman willing to have children with you, almost completely financially independent and not expect to be financially supported by you by the slightest, sign all these prenups and parenting plans, AND let you sleep around with other women, please let me know and I’ll congratulate you personally. 🙂

  29. Huh? Women who act like this *are* stupid, and not learning from their past interactions with men. Don’t you agree that being mad when dog barks is stupid? This is why I’m saying smarter women “with game” and who want a serious partner adheres to not fucking *any guys* quickly.

    Vast majority of women don’t think with their brain when it comes to dating and love.  Stupid has nothing to do with it.  Especially women over 40 who are fresh off a failed relationship, which is the majority of women in the dating pool.  Some even tell me they just wanted to get fucked.  They needed it after 20 years of marriage with the same boring, lame ass. Some call me because they’ve broken up their bf and need to get laid. I only date or “friend” middle to upper class women.  Intelligent, independent, well educated, and in some cases wealthy.  Makes no difference.  Every time some engineer has me pushed up against a wall in some club, on the first date, I never say “I can’t believe this..  this girls stupid!!” because it happens almost every time.

    This is were my experience and BD’s are different.  Most women over 40 sleep with me within a date or 2.

  30. @SabrinaK

    You know I actually agree with you, for a man who want children, a OLTR with a 25-33 year old woman will be the most optimal for you guys.

    Of course. Also true if no kids are to be involved. That’s why high end actors, millionaires and über alphas in their 40s and 50s date women 20 years younger than them whenever they have the chance even if they don’t have kids. It’s biology, sorry.

    Bad argument there, honey. Older women’s spiking ASD is not just their SMV declining, it’s *also* women curating their behavior to most men’s slut shaming tendencies.

    It’s especially their age and their looks/fertility window closing. Don’t play the victim role with me, you’re 15 years late already, I know all the excuses. Slut shaming is mainly women business, as I told you before.

    So you’ll have a much more difficult time getting into an OLTR with such women

    Obviously, because as I was saying they are at the top of their SMV/RMV. Already knew that, thanks.

    See how nice it is when you finally agree with my main argument of this entire conversation? Wasn’t that difficult, honey.

  31. @John

    Vast majority of women don’t think with their brain when it comes to dating and love. Stupid has nothing to do with it.

    Repeating what makes you unhappy over and over again (i.e. “being pumped and dumped”) and not changing your behavior is the definition of stupid and irrational. People “fresh out of serious relationships” will always seek quick sex and emotional validation, regardless of gender – I understand that (that’s probably why over 40s women slept with you very fast, in addition to your charm & game). But for these women to *repeat* the same relationship behaviors that make you unhappy and acting “surprised” or “blaming the other party” is stupid. You do not fall “in love” on first/second dates, those early interactions, for both men and women, should be geared towards maximizing game to attract and “snag” the other party.

    Now when it comes to love and deep emotional attachment, I absolutely agree men and women both “don’t think their brains” and do things that are not the most optimal for them. I would even argue both parties *continuing* to do things that are not optimal for them is precisely what keep the relationship to work long term. One of the issues I have with Caleb’s OLTR model is that it lets the men do what is the most optimal for him, and the women to do the non-optimal for her *given that the societal norm is traditional marriage* (especially when they have children and the woman has a biological incentive to keep the father of her baby for 18+ years), it’s an unfair deal the majority of women will not take, at least currently.

  32. I was responding to the comment why “older women” resist sex, have higher ASD, and demand exclusivity/commitment more quickly. So if you’re in the view that all women have same level of ASD regardless of age, I am not sure I agree with your statement either, but my previous comment was geared towards the argument older women resist first/second date sex more so than younger women.

    I’m not really of any opinion in regards to ASD.  I don’t even consider ASD a thing I have to account for.  Sure they all want a relationship but it still doesn’t affect their actual behavior with me.  My buddies (buddies are alpha males also) all report the same thing.  I just give them a certain experience and it ends in a predictable manner.

    Look all this stuff is fun to theorize about and argue but in actual experience it’s highly variable.  Different guys have different successes and experiences.  For instance, unlike a lot of men (I assume) I have a knack for getting women over 35 to sex fast.  Sure younger women are quicker but you also have the political activists types, #metoo.  I have literally never had a older woman tell me not to touch her.  Shit many attack me.   So it evens out.

  33. @CSR

    That’s why high end actors, millionaires and über alphas in their 40s and 50s date women 20 years younger than them whenever they have the chance even if they don’t have kids. It’s biology, sorry.

    Yep, because high end actors and billionaires (not millionaires, there’s too many of them around) offer women status and wealth. Women love being provided. It’s biology, sorry.

    But this whole blog is about dating and keeping women around, while being hyper vigilant about financially supporting women and offering women only companionship and sex.  If you are a high end actor or a billionaire, you won’t likely be reading this blog because you won’t have to.

    It’s especially their age and their looks/fertility window closing. Don’t play the victim role with me, you’re 15 years late already, I know all the excuses. Slut shaming is mainly women business, as I told you before.

    Ah, your argument was all about how SMV was everything and male/female game has *nothing* to do with how people act in dating situations. I’m glad you have modified your stance to it is *especially* SMV, good for you. And of course, personal insults start coming, this is when I know you are grasping at straws. Don’t worry, I’m no victim, I love men and am loved by men, always will 🙂

    Slut shaming is mainly women’s business? Care to look at manosphere vs female-oriented internet space and see where you find more slut shaming? Jesus.

  34. You do not fall “in love” on first/second dates, those early interactions.

    Ever test drove a car you just “fell in love” with?  Bought it?  Spent too much?  Dress?  Shoes?  Hair color? latte? purse? that you just had to have and “fell in love with it”  Sure you have.  All stupid decisions from a purely logical standpoint but not from an emotional one.

    that’s me.

  35. Whatever floats your boat.  Personally I don’t find older women attractive.  Of course you can point out to some exceptions at the extreme end of the bell curve.  But exceptions don’t disprove the rule. 

    Add on the additional ASD and provider hunter instincts, and I don’t see the point in going after older women.  I’d bang one if she threw herself at me and wasn’t too fat.  But that’s not saying much.  My standards for getting my dick wet with a new woman are very low as long as I don’t have to do much work.

  36. @SabrinaK

    It’s biology, sorry.

    So you prove my point. Thanks again for your help.

    But this whole blog is about dating and keeping women around, while being hyper vigilant about financially supporting women and offering women only companionship and sex.

    The more reason not to begin an OLTR with a woman in her provider hunter’s peak 😀 Younger please, thank you!

    If you are a high end actor or a billionaire, you won’t likely be reading this blog because you won’t have to.

    Yes they should, if they want to keep them around and/or not being divorce raped in the future. BD advice is good enough he’s still my #1 reference source of material. Doesn’t mean I agree with all his points, of course.

    Ah, your argument was all about how SMV was everything and male/female game has *nothing* to do with how people act in dating situations.

    Did I ever mentioned “game” in the discussion? Yeah, thought so. Mainly because I don’t even need to mention game at all to win this argument.

    And of course, personal insults start coming,

    Really? When? Quote the text, please. I know you’ve already lost the argument but don’t make it so obvious. As I’ve told you, I know all the tricks.

    Slut shaming is mainly women’s business? Care to look at manosphere vs female-oriented internet space and see where you find more slut shaming? Jesus.

    Yeah, I looked. Also looked at real life and slut shaming is definitely women’s business. One thing does not change between internet and real life, though: women are always the victims and always try to shift the blame to men. Remember that “disrespect” thing you were talking about? There you go.

  37. @John

    Ever test drove a car you just “fell in love” with? Bought it? Spent too much? Dress? Shoes? Hair color? latte? purse? that you just had to have and “fell in love with it” Sure you have. All stupid decisions from a purely logical standpoint but not from an emotional one.

    Of course, as I said, minor “emotional decisions” made once or twice are fine, and make us very human. *Repeated* “emotional decisions”, or *huge and sudden* emotional decision, when the said decisions prove to yield consequences that make you unhappy, is where it gets stupid.

    At least for me, there is a huge difference between “falling in love with” something/someone in two days, and *actually* “having deep attachment and love for” something/someone for more than two years. The former kind of “love” is usually infatuation and can be enjoyed but should be ignored in making big decisions; the latter kind of “love” actually is worth being factored into big life decisions and in sacrificing your optimal utility for, as “deep attachment” is precisely what makes life fulfilling and worth living.

    Even for cars – if you insist on buying a million dollar sports car when your net worth is 1.5 million “because you love it”, I’ll flat out call you stupid. Now, if you refuse to upgrade your car you’ve had for 10 years because the car is your late father’s legacy, I’ll still call you stupid, but understand where you’re coming from. Different type of stupidity, I’ll engage in the latter gladly but not in the former.

  38. At least for me, there is a huge difference between “falling in love with” something/someone in two days, and *actually* “having deep attachment and love for” something/someone for more than two years. The former kind of “love” is usually infatuation and can be enjoyed but should be ignored in making big decisions; the latter kind of “love” actually is worth being factored into big life decisions

    Yeah of course.  But all I need, and any guy who does this needs, it a rash quick in the moment decision.  It’s an emotional decision.  I can see “that look” they give me.  Same look women get when they see a tasty piece of chocolate.  Candy they know they shouldn’t eat but can’t help themselves emotionally.  She just got to have it.  All I have to do is make her feel a certain way.

     

  39. @CSR

    One thing does not change between internet and real life, though: women are always the victims and always try to shift the blame to men. Remember that “disrespect” thing you were talking about? There you go.

    Hmm, let me get this straight. You ask why “older women” seem to have higher ASD than younger women. I venture an answer that there are two components (1) women learning from their experiences from men and (2) women not willing to waste more time. You write a long comment about how it is *only* the latter and *none* of the former. Then, you subtly change your argument that it is slightly the former and mainly the latter, with zero evidence other than your absolutely erroneous speculation that “slut shaming” is “definitely women’s business” which you cannot prove. Both on internet and in real life, men do suffer from Madonna-whore complex of varying degrees.

    I still have zero idea what you were trying to argue against from my original comment, which was an answer to your question.

    If trying to shift the blame to men is what women do, not being able to admit their own follies is what men do. 🙂  Again, as a 40 something year old man, good luck getting a hot and smart 26-33 year old woman who (1) lets you sleep around with other girls, (2) who sleep with you immediately in less than two dates without buying her dinner, (3) who is 100% financially independent and don’t expect to be financially supported, and (4) willing to sign prenup and parenting plans, to settle down and have babies with you! You guys all gotta be realistic.

  40. @John

    But all I need, and any guy who does this needs, it a rash quick in the moment decision.  It’s an emotional decision.

    If you are looking to get laid, you’re doing everything right. I was arguing against your point that women are *not* stupid for sleeping with “alpha” men quickly over and over again, knowing it will result in “pump and dump” that cause them unhappiness.

  41. @SabrinaK

    Again, as a 40 something year old man, good luck getting a hot and smart 26-33 year old woman who (1) lets you sleep around with other girls, (2) who sleep with you immediately in less than two dates without buying her dinner, (3) who is 100% financially independent and don’t expect to be financially supported, and (4) willing to sign prenup and parenting plans, to settle down and have babies with you! You guys all gotta be realistic.

    Look, you clearly don’t get it.

    1. Wrong. She doesn’t let me because I don’t ask. I just do it. No deal? Bye.

    2. Hahaha, buying her dinner before sex. That’s so hilarious. If she’s lucky I’ll buy from time to time when / if the relationship is well stablished and I see her buying from time to time, too. The rest? 50/50 as I’ve always done. No deal? Bye.

    3. She better expect that, I don’t expect her to earn as much as I do because statistically speaking it’s unlikely, women usually do the easiest jobs thus the lower salaries. But, I expect her to have a decent job, decent salary and perfectly able to pay for her expenses. I’m 38 so no need to do the sugar daddy thing. No job? Bye.

    4. I’m not going to be legally married unless the legal situation totally changes for the better (unlikely) or I move to a safer place (more likely). Anyways if we want kids I’ll need to make a very detailed and specific plan including of course every single paper I need to protect myself including things like DNA testing, etc. No deal? Bye.

    If the legal situation in the US is bad for men, wait until I explain to you guys how it is in Spain, where I come from.

  42. Well, it’s important. Very important, in fact and probably one the very few things you have not discussed/talked about yet in your blog. Hypergamy, the wall, and many more useful concepts.

    No, it’s not that important. Yes, you should understand the basics of the whys, and I cover those, but then you need spend the other 90% of your time acting on what works in the real world regardless of the whys. Spending your time and your emotional energy delving into article after article about why women dump men or why women’s ASD spikes as they age isn’t helpful at all. It just starts to skew your perceptions after a while. That’s why I’m not constantly screaming at the rooftops about hypergamy (or whatever) all the time. I’m here to teach you want to do in real life to be a better man; I’m not a college professor lecturing about anthropology.

    If you want to read blogs that focus on these kinds of things, and there are many in the manosphere (they’re the norm), that’s fine. Some of those guys I actually like. But this blog is mostly about action, not analysis.

  43. If you want to read blogs that focus on these kinds of things, and there are many in the manosphere (they’re the norm), that’s fine. Some of those guys I actually like. But this blog is mostly about action, not analysis.

    Yep, I’m not asking you to do any different. I was just pointing out that ages 25-33 to start an OLTR are preferable. You said that this was a personal preference and I explained why that’s incorrect.

  44. @CSR

    I do get it! Exactly, you seem to be saying “No deal? bye!” to a lot of women (if you get that far), or else you would have a perfect OLTR wife at the age of 25-33 having your babies! I’m looking forward to you finding such woman who check all the above mentioned four boxes, and if you ever do, you’ll have my heartfelt congratulations! 🙂

  45. You said that this was a personal preference and I explained why that’s incorrect.

    Not really, per one of my prior comments.

    If your argument is that a woman is less likely to leave you if she’s really attracted to you vs. if she needs you to financially support her lifestyle, then not only are you incorrect, but the exact opposite is more likely to be true.

    If that is not your argument, then you’ve tried twice to explain your final point and both efforts were insufficient for me to understand, so let’s just agree to disagree.

  46. @SabrinaK

    Yeah I’m perfectly fine with my FBs and MLTR. An OLTR on the other hand is not a requirement for my current lifestyle and needs.

    @Blackdragon

    If your argument is that a woman is less likely to leave you if she’s really attracted to you vs. if she needs you to financially support her lifestyle, then not only are you incorrect, but the exact opposite is more likely to be true

    I’m not worried about whether she leaves me (eventually, the relationship will end) but that her attraction for me is as high as possible because that will make the whole relationship better regardless of how much time it lasts. The less she sees me as a provider/last chance before her looks fade, the better.

  47. @CSR

    And that’s your choice. Trying to get an attractive and smart OLTR wife (25-33 years old) *who bear your children*, while specifying all aforementioned four conditions to be met, is already stacked against your favor (I don’t think any commenter of this blog have succeeded in this, and I doubt anyone can without sacrificing woman’s “quality” –  as it is clearly so far against women’s optimal dating strategy).

    Also realize that getting an OLTR (25-33 years old) at prime of her SMV/RMV will be more and more difficult as your own SMV/RMV will decline. (Your favorite concept!). Time will work *against you* as well.

  48. @SabrinaK

    Also realize that getting an OLTR (25-33 years old) at prime of her SMV/RMV will be more and more difficult as your own SMV/RMV will decline. (Your favorite concept!). Time will work *against you* as well.

    It will, indeed. In the future when I’m 50+.

  49. @CSR

    It will, indeed. In the future when I am 50+.

    Hopeful, but incorrect again. A man’s SMV/RMV increases purely with age until 40 *at most* (I’d argue realistically around 35). And then you are also fighting against time. By 50+, realistically, you’ll have to throw money around (“sugar daddy game”) to fuck girls in their 20s, let alone getting a top quality girl in her 20s (or even early 30s) to settle down and have babies with you (and be ok with your fucking other girls, and your refusal to legally marry her, your expectation that she be financially independent, yada yada yada).
    You need to be a lot more realistic. Caleb surely is when he, in his mid 40s, snags a good looking mid-late 30s woman who’s down with having no children to settle down with. I also am when I play my “female game” to get married and have kids in my mid-late 20s (*15 years past my prime!! gasp*) to a smart, attractive, and wealthy man in his early 30s who I love.
    Maybe you never want to pair bond, though, up to you. Best of luck!

  50. Christie Brinkley is an excellent example of a woman who looks good for her age. Another mind blowing exmple would be Joan Collins who I think is in her eighties, you should google her seriously

  51. Caleb, can you please make an article about the reasons why all kinds of game (online, night game etc) become harder?

  52. @SabrinaK

    Hopeful, but incorrect again. A man’s SMV/RMV increases purely with age until 40 *at most* (I’d argue realistically around 35).

    Yeah, sure. Like a woman’s. Keep dreaming.

    And then you are also fighting against time. By 50+, realistically, you’ll have to throw money around (“sugar daddy game”) to fuck girls in their 20s,

    But I’ll still be able to do it, probably without relying entirely on sugar daddy game. A woman at that age is pretty much over unless she’s a genetic and fitness freak and has already settled up years ago. No man prefers a 50 yo woman unless he can’t do better. Women otherwise? Plenty.

    You need to be a lot more realistic. Caleb surely is when he, in his mid 40s, snags a good looking mid-late 30s woman who’s down with having no children to settle down with.

    Again, PF is almost 40 and BD is 47 or so. And it’s a miracle that PF doesn’t want kids or that she has decided to sacrifice having kids. I really, really hope this doesn’t backfire to BD later on.

    I also am when I play my “female game” to get married and have kids in my mid-late 20s (*15 years past my prime!! gasp*) to a smart, attractive, and wealthy man in his early 30s who I love.

    Female game does not exist because the effort you need to put to get a partner is pretty much zero. Having said that, if you’re 26 and you’re about to get married/engaged you are doing exactly the right thing. I’m from Spain and generally speaking, in Europe women wait too much (even more than in the US) and ride the cock carrousel 10 more years. Then, when it’s too late, they ask where are the good man. Heh, well, we are fucking girls your age, of course.

  53. Let the women ride the carousel lol. This isn’t some altright blog.

    TMM is a gamble whose whole “success” is built on the silly bet that (1) there’ll be no boredom and increase in drama and problems, (2) neither side will ever, ever cheat. Neither sex is served by it. You’ll cheat or get cheated on, if only after 10 years, which makes your situation indistinguishable from OLTR, except it occurred dishonestly.
    Screw TMM, acknowledge how statistics work and move on. Men and women will probably tend to favor a different variant of OLTR/MLTR, but TMM is still a far shittier deal, it is not “the women’s game”, nor the men’s game either.

  54. Let the women ride the carousel lol. This isn’t some altright blog.

    Of course. The more they do it, the more fish for us to catch.

    And obviously TMM is dead, I wouldn’t even dare to read this blog if I didn’t knew that.

  55. I really, really hope this doesn’t backfire to BD later on.

    It’s an OLTR Marriage. In a divorce-like event I don’t lose a penny of my money nor have my sex life damaged in any way. It can’t “backfire.” But I appreciate the concern.

  56. Caleb, can you please make an article about the reasons why all kinds of game (online, night game etc) become harder?

    Excuse me, what are you talking about?

  57. Hi SabrinaK!

     (1) lets you sleep around with other girls, (2) who sleep with you immediately in less than two dates without buying her dinner, (3) who is 100% financially independent and don’t expect to be financially supported, and (4) willing to sign prenup and parenting plans, to settle down and have babies with you! You guys all gotta be realistic.

    Let’s just try a bit of creative rephrasing.

    (1) a woman who wants sexual freedom herself and doesn’t feel sexually possessive over her partners;

    (2) who wants sex and isn’t into playing games and pretending she doesn’t, and doesn’t have some regressive notion that it’s something she gives or sells to a man, but is something she does with a man;

    (3) who takes pride in her career and is proud of her ability to support herself.

    I’ll leave (4), because I haven’t got to that stage with anyone. I’ll only point out that I’ve been involved with hot younger women who, if we’d ever considered marriage, would have been strongly advised to insist on a prenup from me — because they have more money and property.

    You’re gonna say this is one in ten thousand. I’d argue one in … 200, maybe. But I live in a city with 8 million women, so do the math.

    Why do hot young women with careers get involved with an older guy? I’m not really sure if there’s a definitive answer, all I can say is it happens. They just seem to have different expectations and desires than average women — who want pretty much the things you say you want.

  58. @CSR

    Oh, I love it when you prove your own point! I knew I’ll have fun with you 🙂

    Again and for the last time it is not disrespect

    Yeah, I looked. Also looked at real life and slut shaming is definitely women’s business.

    and

    Having said that, if you’re 26 and you’re about to get married/engaged you are doing exactly the right thing. I’m from Spain and generally speaking, in Europe women wait too much (even more than in the US) and ride the cock carrousel 10 more years.

    Ok, so following your argument, if I’m doing the “exactly the right thing,” the Spanish women “riding the cock carousel for 10 more years” instead of getting engaged are doing something “wrong”. So you disapprove of women in their mid 20s – early 30s who have casual sex, and revel in the fact they will be off peak of their sexual prime and will be crying “where are all the good men gone”.

    Your whole point about men “not disrespecting” women for casual sex or “slut shaming” is “definitely women’s business” is completely debunked – you yourself, a man, is doing exactly that.

    Don’t worry, the majority of men are confused like you, and can’t figure out whether to love or hate the “sluts”, consciously or unconsciously. There are some extremes, of course – Caleb and Jack Outside the Box (the Trumpy dude with a Wiccan girlfriend; is he still around?) decided to love the sluts, and Roosh V, and some other manosphere authors, decided to hate them. Most men are just confused.

    The women *learn* this male psychology in her dating life, at least subconsciously, when men reject them for emotional connection, love, and commitment for sleeping with them too soon or being “fwb” for too long. I am not “victimizing” womanhood, by the way, I’m telling you this is a big subconscious reason for a woman’s ASD – which has been consistently my whole point.

    But I’ll still be able to do it, probably without relying entirely on sugar daddy game. A woman at that age is pretty much over unless she’s a genetic and fitness freak and has already settled up years ago.

    Another enjoyable but unfortunately incorrect comment! Both women *and* men in their 50s will be able to fuck (and even shack up with) people in their 20s if they financially support them. By the way, I actually think men in their 40s can totally be able to get younger FB/MLTR‘s in their late 20s – early 30s (especially if you keep yourself in shape, and easier if the girls are cheating on their boyfriends/husbands). In their 50-60s, they can get sugar babies as FBs. Totally doable.

    What I am arguing against is a man in his mid 40s being able to *pair bond* and *have babies with* an objectively attractive and smart OLTR wife (age of 25-32) under Caleb’s “OLTR marriage” rules with “Alpha frame” alone. If your plan is to go with FB/MLTR model until mid 40s (or even later!!) and suddenly try to pair bond and have kids with a girl in her late 20s, your plan is laughably unrealistic. Though you’re welcome to try. It’s not my life. 🙂

    No man prefers a 50 yo woman unless he can’t do better. Women otherwise? Plenty.

    No woman *prefers* a 50 yo man unless she can’t do better with a man in his RMV peak (early – mid 30s) who is offering the exact same things as the 50 yo man in question. Get out of your fantasy land of hypothetical revenge fantasies of younger women growing older and being rejected left and right (which is largely untrue unless the women “let themselves go” or wallowing in single motherhood), and also get out of your fantasy land of never-declining male SMV.

     

  59. @Incognito

    Hello Incognito 🙂

    This wasn’t a matter of policy, it’s just the way it turned out. But I think it’s a pretty good formula: older men / younger women; younger men / older women.

    I agree with a qualifier that (1) the older man/woman in question genuinely care for the younger party and not using them for the ego trip (too much possibility for power abuse in both scenarios, because older party just “knows better”) and (2) the relationship is set up to be more temporary – FB/MLTR – and not pair-bonding in nature. For pair bonding, I think a smaller age differential is more ideal – this is my opinion from observing married couples in my parents age who have been married for 20+ years; the energy level is more in sync for couples with less age differential (15 years would be too much, in my opinion – but again, to each their own).

    I’ll leave (4), because I haven’t got to that stage with anyone. I’ll only point out that I’ve been involved with hot younger women who, if we’d ever considered marriage, would have been strongly advised to insist on a prenup from me — because they have more money and property.

    You’re gonna say this is one in ten thousand. I’d argue one in … 200, maybe. But I live in a city with 8 million women, so do the math.

    Actually, what you seem to have is multiple younger FB/MLTRs (good for you!) – I actually never argued against the feasibility of this, ever. (I did say knowingly leading women on is manipulative, but women do manipulative shit all the time as well.) If you do FB/MLTR setup properly, a man who is able to genuinely not judge and embrace women (or be damn good at acting so) is very rare and I can see why women will be feeling “safe” while “attracted” (especially when she’s cheating on her own partner) – ingenious.

    What I highly doubt that can work, however, is an pair-bonding OLTR marriage set up where a man in his mid-late 40s can actually shack up and have babies with a hot, high IQ, career woman in her late 2os – very early 30s with all the aforementioned four “rules”. I have literally never seen this in my life. You yourself said you have never attempted this, Caleb himself are doing a no-kids OLTR marriage with a woman in her late 30s, and none of the commenters here have done this. I am saying for this to work, you will have to compromise a lot on the SMV “quality” of the woman (whether it be in “youthfulness” or “fertility”). I personally think, of course, harping on SMV quality of women is silly – older women are great for older men (the whole point of the article).

    I’ll give you a woman’s perspective – an Alpha 2.0 (if done correctly) give total freedom to me but also hyper vigilant about his freedom, and how he can decide to leave without risking anything. Being in a FB/MLTR relationship with him is fine (as a woman, you are not risking or investing much), maybe even seriously dating him (high-end MLTR/ live-in OLTR without kids) is non-optimal, but fine (if I myself is older and I somehow have *deep attachment* for the guy). But *having kids* with him, a guy who basically set up every little relationship structure so he can exit my life *for any reason* (that includes “too much drama”) without any repercussions? Hells no. Single motherhood makes women very unhappy, and most women are biologically wired to seek men to father her child who will give her emotional and financial security precisely so she does not have to be a single mother. Alpha 2.0 does not provide that.

  60. What I highly doubt that can work, however, is an pair-bonding OLTRmarriage set up where a man in his mid-late 40s can actually shack up and have babies with a hot, high IQ, career woman in her late 2os – very early 30s with all the aforementioned four “rules”

    Hmmm. I admit I find it hard to envisage for myself. I don’t think it’s something that most men would be able to pull off, or not with any stability. But I can think of a few cases where it happens. It’s just the guys are fairly exceptional high achievers in some way or another. I agree that most men aren’t gonna be able to do it.

  61. Guys please take on board what Sabrina is saying!   Stop being so cynical.  Most women are not out to bleed a man dry and then cheerfully move on to the next man!  It is sad and disturbing that so many men have such a poor and distorted understanding of women.

  62. But *having kids* with him, a guy who basically set up every little relationship structure so he can exit my life *for any reason* (that includes “too much drama”) without any repercussions? Hells no.

    You mention this “drawback” several times, also in other threads.  But let me get this straight, you want a relationship structure where your guy can’t leave you even if he wants to, because of some contractual obligation?  Wouldn’t you want the guy to stay with you because he wants to?

    That being said, I consider children to be a shared responsibility.  From the get-go.  So in case one of the parents decides to give up his/her career to take care of the children, then this is a shared decision and I think some form of child support/alimony is reasonable in the case of a break-up.

    This is different from the situation where a woman says “I’m married now, so I have a husband to hand me money and I can spend my time shopping for shoes while he works.”  Don’t make this all so black-and-white.

  63. @Stephanie

    Stop being so cynical.  Most women are not out to bleed a man dry and then cheerfully move on to the next man!

    Most car commutes don’t end with my brain spattered on the windshield.  But I buckle up for every trip I take.  BD is basically advising us to “buckle up just in case”.

  64. Another enjoyable but unfortunately incorrect comment! Both women *and* men in their 50s will be able to fuck (and even shack up with) people in their 20s if they financially support them.

    Depends.  Women in America are into older men now.  I get hit on by women as young as 18.  I’ve picked up women so young I’ve had to check their license just to make sure they were old enough to drink.  I have a 24 year old piece of beautiful blond haired, blue eyed perfection who I have kept on the side until she went MIA in the last couple months, which they do.  No money, no support, nothing.  Never spent a dime other than the normal.  My buddy (big alpha with a Harley so that helps with night game) experiences the same thing.  I don’t go out of my way to game very young women but if opportunity presents I will.  Like the 21 year old outside a restaurantbar in the middle of the day.  I started a conversation and then she was the aggressor.  That’s at 50 years old.  My issue with younger women who like older men is that they’re usually a mess.  So I don’t aggressively go there but I could and it would be like taking candy from a baby. Obviously as i get older that will not be the case but I also won’t care. It’s becoming less of a desire every year.

  65. wait until I explain to you guys how it is in Spain, where I come from.

    Please do, as I’m interested in that specific subject.

  66. @Pseudonymous User

    Well, it’s in Spanish but here are the official figures for divorce rates in Spain: https://www.ine.es/prensa/ensd_2017.pdf

    In page 3 you’ll see that women still got 65% of sole custody, shared custody is at 30% and 4.4% for him. Obviously a miracle if the father gets the custody.

    Alimony to kids is still paid by men 71% of the occasions.

    If there’s alimony to be paid to the ex, men pay 92% of the time.

    So, yeah, pretty fucked up but it doesn’t look too different from a typical western country right? Well, there’s another problem: the 2004 gender violence law: https://justiciadegenero.com/en/analysis-of-8-years-of-gender-violence-law-in-spain/

    Basically the LIVG (as it’s known here) states that if a men abuse a woman who happens to be her current or ex partner, it’s automatically treated as a “gender violence” act. Which means he is abusing her because she’s a woman. PERIOD. I’m quoting the law. There’s no if’s or but’s. Regardless of any other consideration, situation, even if he’s hit her in self defense and it’s been proven, it’s not regular domestic violence but “gender violence” and so he’s judged by a completely different law than the rest.

    This has been there for more than 14 years and the Constitutional Tribunal (equivalent of the US Supreme Court) said the law was ok even though it absolutely violates our own Constitution’s Article 14 that clearly states that we are equal against the law regardless of sex, race, etc.

    Not only women have an obvious pussy pass in court (like everywhere else) but they are also legally above men. Which means whenever a couple has a crisis or they are about to break, he knows she has the upper hand. She doesn’t even need to sue him because he knows what could happen if she “presses the button”.

    Absolutely crazy.

  67. Guys please take on board what Sabrina is saying!   Stop being so cynical.  Most women are not out to bleed a man dry and then cheerfully move on to the next man!  It is sad and disturbing that so many men have such a poor and distorted understanding of women.

    Intentions don’t matter, only actions, behaviors, and results.

    Of course the average woman isn’t out to intentionally “bleed a man dry” …women as a group aren’t evil. But it does happen, and it happens a lot. (I would argue it’s the man’s fault every time since he made choices that allowed it to happen)

    It’s been interesting seeing a woman’s perspective though, through Sabrinas various comments on this blog.

    On topic:

    If she makes my dick hard, age doesn’t matter. If she treats me right (sucks, fucks, little drama), then she can stay part of my life until she decides not to be…her reasons and her decisions = not my problem.

    Simple.

  68. CSR, thanks for the detailed response. What about the economic side of things? Are prenups honored? What are the cohabitation laws like? I heard there’s a concept of pareja de hecho which is something that can be voluntarily entered into, what happens to people who aren’t in any legal status?

  69. Guys please take on board what Sabrina is saying

    No offense but Sabrina is a sweet little girl but that’s what she is.  IF a 26 year old guy came up to me and tried giving me advice or an opinion on life or relationships I’d pat him on the head and chuckle, tell him how adorable he is.  At 26 she literally knows just a little bit more than my 15 year old.  I could tell him till i’m blue in face how things “will” turn out and he’d ignore me and do what he wants anyways.  Because he has no idea what’s coming.  zero.  no clue.  He has the necessary amount of blissful ignorance, curiosity, hope, and denial to cause him to take risks.  But I encourage that.  It’s what makes being young so great.  Making mistakes and learning first hand, evolving.  But just like her he’s still a kid.  I don’t take kids seriously when it comes to life experience and input.  And at 50 I know more about how women think, act, and what makes them tick than a 26 year old woman does.  As do many men on here past a certain age, which is why it’s so easy and predictable for us to do what we do.

  70. Depends.  Women in America are into older men now.  I get hit on by women as young as 18

    I don’t know about America, but I think BD is right when he said a small but significant subset of young women just like older men, quite apart from any financial consideration. I’m not gonna speculate on any Freudian possibilities, they just do. It might only be five or ten percent of women who think like that — but there are a lot of women in the world, so that’s plenty.  It’s never gonna be true that most young women like older men, just that enough do.

    It’s true with almost everything. When guys say that the vast majority of women don’t like short men, for example, what they should be saying is a significant minority of women do like them (or don’t mind).

  71. Sabrina’s main point is basically “Girl wants to fuck, girl makes it clear to guy, guy fucks her and disrespects her. Girl doesn’t like being disrespected, learns to be less open and more manipulative”.

    You guys try to discredit that point, and what are your arguments? “Men are right to disrespect sluts” (stooping so low as to use the expression “cock carousel”). “What do you know, you’re a child”.

    You’re literally displaying the exact pattern of men’s behavior Sabrina considers the root cause of women’s behavior. She might or might not be mistaken that it’s the main factor, but slut shaming of women by men is most definitely a significant factor.

  72. @Vincent

    But let me get this straight, you want a relationship structure where your guy can’t leave you even if he wants to, because of some contractual obligation?  Wouldn’t you want the guy to stay with you because he wants to?

    Of course that’s ideal, and as for me, I plan to be the best wife/mother I can be so my husband will *want* to be with me. But when I have kids, I want the father of my children to be in the household supporting the family until those kids turn 18 (or whenever the kids are “fully grown” adults), and if *he* wants to leave, I want a contractual obligation to make him think twice. Just “buckling up just in case”, same as what you guys want to do. Remember – I want a traditional marriage inside a social norm; you’re talking about a relationship structure outside of a societal norm – so I don’t have to even convince anyone for a relationship structure I want, but you guys do.

    Even Caleb admits Pink Firefly has a (what he says is an “unlikely”) fear of Caleb leaving her suddenly singing a happy tune (although she . For most women, raising kids with this subconscious fear is a terrible deal and against her biological mating strategy that prioritizes security.

    I won’t take the deal, I don’t have to. HBM (Caleb’s ex girlfriend) didn’t take the deal, she wanted children. And I don’t see any attractive and smart late 20s – early 30s (at their RMV peak) woman with a self sufficient income who want children taking the OLTR marriage deal – it’s unfeasible, especially for a 40-something/ 50-something man who is well off *his* RMV peak (which is usually at mid 30s).

    Don’t make this all so black-and-white.

    I’m not making anything black-and-white. You guys are when you vilify monogamy and say women will “either be bored to death” by “beta”s or “frustrated to death” by “cheating alpha 1.0’s”, and that the optimal option for women is to be in this OLTR marriage deal with “alpha 2.0’s”. What I’m saying is OLTR marriage, while non-optimal, can work for some women (especially those who don’t want children), but for women in their RMV peak who want children, traditional marriage is a much more viable and optimal option.

    I’ve said in the last post that alpha/beta is a *spectrum*, and there are mild versions of betas and alphas most women end up settling down with. A woman have to learn to deal with a little bit of frustration (with mild alphas) or a little bit of boredom (with mild betas), and if/when she does, marriage isn’t so bad.

  73. for women in their RMV peak who want children, traditional marriage is a much more viable and optimal option

    That’s true, it is. But please be frank with yourself that this option also includes cheating on him, while he is in various ways locked into the marriage.

    That’s the perfect arrangement for a woman. It differs from the perfect arrangement for a man.

  74. Caleb, can you please make an article about the reasons why all kinds of game (online, night game etc) become harder?

    Read my comment above about not over-focusing on the problems and instead focusing on the actions you can take to be happier in spite of the problems.

    (1) lets you sleep around with other girls, (2) who sleep with you immediately in less than two dates without buying her dinner, (3) who is 100% financially independent and don’t expect to be financially supported, and (4) willing to sign prenup and parenting plans, to settle down and have babies with you! You guys all gotta be realistic.

    Eliminate number 3 and now you’re good; you’ve got millions upon millions of attractive women down for 1, 2, and 4 provided a man does everything correctly (which few do).

    I know YOU are not down for any of that, Sabrina, but in our last conversion you clearly displayed what kind of woman you are (A monogamy-demanding, no-prenup-demanding Dominant career woman who doesn’t care at all about the damage she causes to men later in life), so I have no interest in going down that rabbit hole again. Just remember that you are not “all” or “most” or “a lot of” women. You’re just you.

  75. Guys please take on board what Sabrina is saying! Stop being so cynical. Most women are not out to bleed a man dry and then cheerfully move on to the next man! It is sad and disturbing that so many men have such a poor and distorted understanding of women.

    Please specifically articulate what is “distorted” about it, and please show facts and stats to back up your statements.

  76. @John

    No offense but Sabrina is a sweet little girl

    Thank you, obviously I agree 🙂 I’m even more of a sweetheart in real life, complete with eye-batting seduction techniques, kpop star looks, and a career with a six figure starting salary. And, of course, humility is my greatest quality within my never-ending list of great qualities. 🙂

    At 26 she literally knows just a little bit more than my 15 year old

    Incorrect. The maturity difference between a 26-year-old and 15-year-old, regardless of gender, is significant. One is a fully functioning legal adult, and one is not.

    He has the necessary amount of blissful ignorance, curiosity, hope, and denial to cause him to take risks. But I encourage that. It’s what makes being young so great.

    100% agree. Youth is amazing.

    And at 50 I know more about how women think, act, and what makes them tick than a 26 year old woman does.

    You’re a man, I’m a woman. I definitely know more about how women think and act than you do, just like you know more about how men think and act than I do. Now, if you’re saying you know more about *relationships* than I do, I absolutely agree with you. That’s why I disapprove of pair-bonding relationships with too much age difference, the younger party will get his/her ass kicked and have to deal with the older party’s cynicism (or “wisdom”, or “baggage”). I stick to men closer to my age range with healthy amount of Disney and willingness to make a relationship work, instead of jaded older men who has one foot out the door at all times.

    Women in America are into older men now. […] My issue with younger women who like older men is that they’re usually a mess. So I don’t aggressively go there but I could and it would be like taking candy from a baby.

    You proved all my points to Incognito, that FB/MLTR relationship with a huge age difference is feasible but ethically questionable (precisely because “it’s like taking candy from a baby”). And that an OLTR relationship for a man over 40-50s with a woman in her late 20s – early 30s is unfeasible.

  77. @Pseudonymous User

    No problem.

    Are prenups honored?

    I’d swear prenups in Spain do exist but they are much weaker than in the US.

    What are the cohabitation laws like? I heard there’s a concept of pareja de hecho which is something that can be voluntarily entered into, what happens to people who aren’t in any legal status?

    If there’re no kids involved and you’ve been smart enough to keep every single asset (accounts, properties, etc.) separated it should be ok.

    If there’re kids around you are pretty much fucked regardless of the rest. Married, pareja de hecho or even just plain cohabiting is enough. Custody of the kids takes all preference. The result could be even worse if you are married? Maybe, but the bulk of the stuff is child alimony, which is based not on what the kids need but what the guy earns.

    All of this is just the normal stuff, if she decides to accuse you of domestic violence (sorry, gender violence)… well.

  78. @BlackDragon

    (1) lets you sleep around with other girls, (2) who sleep with you immediately in less than two dates without buying her dinner, (3) who is 100% financially independent and don’t expect to be financially supported, and (4) willing to sign prenup and parenting plans, to settle down and have babies with you! You guys all gotta be realistic.

    your response:

    Eliminate number 3 and now you’re good; you’ve got millions upon millions of attractive women down for 1, 2, and 4 provided a man does everything correctly (which few do).

    Ok, if you eliminate number 3 prerequisite of your OLTR partner being “100% financially independent and don’t expect to be financially supported”, you will have takers. I said above that both women and men in their 40s and 50s will be able to shack up with the opposite sex in their 20s if you financially provide for them. So my point is, as a man, you can have 1,2,3 OR 1,2,4 in a best case scenario. You seem pretty cheap/frugal from your posts – no wonder you picked 1,2,4.

     A monogamy-demanding, no-prenup-demanding Dominant career woman who doesn’t care at all about the damage she causes to men later in life

    Absolutely incorrect apart from “Dominant career”.

    (1) I don’t “demand” monogamy and no prenup, I just screen out men who don’t offer it.

    (2) Being a Dominant is great, men worship hot bitches (especially in the beginning stages of dating) although they don’t admit it – both men and women are attracted to “dominant” or “alpha” qualities (because it literally signifies dominant genes). In relationships, they prefer “submissive” or “beta” qualities, and I am well aware of this – I actually dial down my Dominant side within a relationship (and expect the man to dial down their alpha side). Telling you, I’m a sweetheart in real life:)

    (3) Being a career woman is also great, but I probably will sacrifice high income for child rearing. Working 80 hour weeks for 200K+ salary is great when I don’t have children, but not sustainable when I do have children, especially because I tend to love workaholic men who have their own businesses. I’ll likely have to switch to a more stable 9-5 job with lower but good income around 80-100K (which will be very doable with my resume – I’ll hone more skillsets if I have to). A decision I’ll make later on.

    (4) “Doesn’t care at all about the damage she causes to men later in life”? Absolutely incorrect. Where the hell are you getting this from?

    Just remember that you are not “all” or “most” or “a lot of” women. You’re just you.

    Caleb, you are not “all” or “most” or “a lot of” men, either. Again, I *am* “most” women in the Western world – didn’t you say “Dominant” women compose 65% of the female population and “drama-prone” women compose 80%+? I’m a lot more “statistically normal” than you are.

  79. I’d swear prenups in Spain do exist but they are much weaker than in the US.

    Well, in the US it differs wildly from state to state. Do you happen to know of representative court cases which would illustrate the strength of Spanish prenups? These are rather easy to find for the US or the UK, but not so for Spain unfortunately, or maybe I don’t know where to look.

  80. Now, if you’re saying you know more about *relationships* than I do, I absolutely agree with you.

    Yes in regards to the scope of this site which is relationships and dating.  I don’t care about anything else.

    You proved all my points to Incognito, that FB/MLTR relationship with a huge age difference is feasible but ethically questionable

    I don’t differentiate between a 42 year old drunk texting me to come fuck her, after a breakup from her asshole bf, from a 24 year old girl texting me to come fuck her at 1 AM because, well for the same reason.  Both have issues, are lonely, need comfort, someone talk to, and are of course horny.  Younger women have a lot more issues but they’re younger so there’s that.  But in the end who is using who?  Older woman will go back to her bf and the younger one will do the same or will just flatly disappear into thin air.  Technically it’s me getting used.  So if there’s an ethical question it isn’t one I need to grapple with.  Either way I don’t care….. Leaves a lot of money and time to drink with my buddies and drive my very rare, incredibly fast, obnoxiously loud, and bad ass sports car.

  81. @Pseudonymous User

    That’s true, it is. But please be frank with yourself that this option also includes cheating on him, while he is in various ways locked into the marriage.

    I don’t plan on cheating on my partner. My point is children lock women into a marriage as well – single motherhood is terrible.

     

  82. I don’t plan on cheating on my partner.

    I love the choice of words. “I never planned it, it just happened. And it doesn’t count because it’s someone I’ll never see again/my childhood friend/his childhood friend/his cousin/my cousin/etc”.

    “I don’t plan” is absolutely not the same as “However fat he might get, however bored I might get of him, however bored he might get of me, however enticing the options, I will Think Of The Children™ and I will most definitely abstain from extramarital sexual activity. Even if nobody will know. Even if all my friends say it won’t count. Even if he uses a condom. Even if that’s a magnum-size condom.”

  83. @Pseudonymous User

    However fat he might get, however bored I might get of him, however bored he might get of me, however enticing the options, I will Think Of The Children™ and I will most definitely abstain from extramarital sexual activity. Even if nobody will know. Even if all my friends say it won’t count. Even if he uses a condom. Even if that’s a magnum-size condom.

    Happy to say this, and my husband better say the same to me. The above is a cruder version of a marriage vow – I take you to be my husband, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death do us part. I comprehend what this means, and it doesn’t bother me at the slightest. I will leave my husband in the case of physical violence or his partaking in felony activities, however (expect him to do the same). I think that is very reasonable.

  84. Since I was a young boy I have always been sexually attracted to older women up to the point where I couldn’t think of having sex with girls my age, when I was like 15 or 16 but they needed to be at least like 25. I still love older women with curvy bodies and sometimes I get a lot more hornier for them, than for a younger woman. However one thing has never changed though, I have never developed any feelings for women over 30, the oldest woman I had feelings for was like 28, when I was 30. It has not changed to this day. Many men in my age I know, late 30s, now have finally admitted that they feel attracted to girls who are even 17, 18 or 20. I have always had my own theory that for some reason nature makes men feel attracted to younger women when they age. I don’t know why that is but I am sure the majority of men feel that way.

  85. @Stephanie

    Guys please take on board what Sabrina is saying!   Stop being so cynical.  Most women are not out to bleed a man dry and then cheerfully move on to the next man!  It is sad and disturbing that so many men have such a poor and distorted understanding of women.

    Hahaha, Stephanie, don’t worry, “many men” do not have such poor and distorted understanding of women. Men fresh out of painful divorce probably do, men who can’t get laid probably do, and they project their anger and frustration onto all womankind – many loud men on online manosphere are in the above two categories. Same with women, though, many women in the internet who are fresh out of painful divorce or can’t get good boyfriends project their anger and frustration onto all men.

    In real life, majority of men (and women) are much more normal and less cynical. 🙂

  86. @Berti

    I have never developed any feelings for women over 30, the oldest woman I had feelings for was like 28, when I was 30. It has not changed to this day.

    If you are unable to feel emotional attraction and deep emotional attachment for all woman post the age of 30, you have a giant liability in any possibility of pair bonding.

     

     

  87. Sabrina, what is the reason you are here?  Just to argue?  Change minds?  Many of us have lived these things and so it really doesn’t matter how you think things should be.  What you think the way things should be and how they actually are, are entirely different, and you spamming up this post with arguments is kinda annoying.

  88. @hollywood

    It’s a good hobby of mine – I love debating. It is unfortunately an annoying trait in real life (especially because I am good at it), so I save it for the internet. 🙂 And whenever I post one comment, I always have a barrage of commenters trying to discredit what I say, so I defend my points. If you don’t like them, ignore me. Very simple.

  89. Sabrina is funny.  Her argument is essentially……”We are not all like that”………then she proceeds to prove that she is in fact “just like that”.

    Its not her fault though, her female nature demands that she be offended by men who understand female nature and the female imperative.  Men who are prepared to organize their lives in a way that maximize the male imperative or at least limits the damage that the female imperative can cause make her feel uncomfortable.

  90. I want the father of my children to be in the household supporting the family until those kids turn 18 (or whenever the kids are “fully grown” adults), and if *he* wants to leave, I want a contractual obligation to make him think twice. Just “buckling up just in case”

    I will not get into the morality of this argument (since that is a very subjective topic), but I hope you’re aware that what you’re stating is the literal definition of coercion; not just “buckling up” (“You no longer love me/like that I give you drama/*insert reason here*/? Too bad, if you leave me, I will make sure to fuck your life up”). I’m not judging you by the way, just trying to state a fact.

    I will leave my husband in the case of physical violence or his partaking in felony activities, however (expect him to do the same). I think that is very reasonable.

    By having a “contractual obligation to make him think twice” before he leaves you, it makes it way harder for him to exit the relationship even if you do end up engaging in such dangerous behaviors.

    Look, I’m not trying to judge you here. But the way I see it, Caleb’s relationship model is freedom-based, while yours is coercion-based. In my opinion both are fine, provided the other person accepts it and you clearly state to the other party what they’re getting into. I know for a fact that Caleb did. I did to my OLTR. My question is, did you do the same to your husband? Did you make sure he clearly knows what he’s getting into, including the fact that he will be forced to stay with you, even if he no longer wishes to, or else you”ll make sure he suffers the corresponding emotional consequences for leaving you (I say emotional, since you have previously stated that money is of no interest to you in case of a divorce)? If the answer is yes, then I see nothing wrong in your relationship structure, and wish both you and your husband a long, happy marriage.

  91. Facts: Younger women 18-23 smell better……I suspect they throw off much more pheremones. By 32+ the smell starts to sour …. Only men who have been with lots of women of varying ages can discern this. Young women smell like berries…naturally fragrant. Their skin and hair are naturally supple.  I can tell a woman’s age-range by her smell and also by skin/hair texture – look.

    Secondly, women’s private part dry out with age.  I guess the equivalent in males in the softening of the erection or the lower quantity of ejaculate or ejaculatory force with age.  Young women’s part lubricate easily, quickly, at the slightest provocation.  Older woman noticeably get drier, less natural lubrication, more attention needed to get the necessary lubrication going.  the decline is noticeable post 32……..

    For these reasons, all things being equal, there is no need for a man to seek older women if he has the same access to younger women. If a guy seeks older women its due to societal programming, peer pressure, lack of opportunity, confidence, or skill in getting younger, or he is seeking a career/financial equal OR may in fact want someone who he can “talk to” easier as larger age gaps do create gaps in taste: music, fashion, food, etc….. All things being equal tho….there is no comparison. Youth wins…90% of the time. For an experienced and semi skilled gent as my self, I dont even look at or entertain women over 30….unless they have already been grandfathered in (the ones I knew when they were younger that 30).

    Yes, you do have some very handsome (they move from pretty to handsome) older women …JLO for example…Halle Berry… Aniston…but I already know for a fact from experience that once all the perfume and makeup is gone, that they smell a little sour and that their vags are bound to be dry (i.e. Lube necessary) -so generally unless is a pity fuck, or out of boredom,……I have no interest,.  Older women know what Im saying to be true…..they just cant afford to publicize it or agree publicly.

  92. Sabrina loves debating and thinks she is really good at it (she is not). Good grief…..she is a walking stereotype. God save any man who gets roped in with her. Then again, the beta chump probably deserves everything he gets…….

  93. @Sabrina

    If you are unable to feel emotional attraction and deep emotional attachment for all woman post the age of 30, you have a giant liability in any possibility of pair bonding.

    What do you mean by that? It’s not something I choose to have, it’s something I have noticed in recent years. I actually don’t even care for relationships at all, it just happens at times that I develop “feelings” for some girls quickly until I meet someone else. For some reason I also rarely ever even meet women my age anyways, unless it’s for having sex. Like I said, I feel like nature does it on purpose for some reason, I don’t know the meaning behind it but since older men seem equally attracted to younger women there should be a reasonable biological explanation for it. I am not as naive to believe I could pull the hottest chicks in their early 20s when I am almost 40 since I refuse to be a provider or sugar daddy though.

  94. Blackdragon

    For guys in their 20s who want to have a mltr with an older women,do you think is possible to get her by using the 85% player/15%provider game?

    In an older article”Cougar game for younger guys”,you said that young guys can fuck a lot of older women if they play the young/dumb/innocent game.

    I m not a “beta ” guy and i like to give “orders”,

    do you think its possible to get in a mltr relationship with an older women who will submit to me,like submissive women submit to alpha 1.0 guys?

    Where i live(Belgrade,Serbia) i know 5 couples older women /younger guy,but in every case the women is a dominant and the guys is beta,also on the internet all the articles about older women /younger men relationships are between a dominant and a beta guy.

    How many couples do you know,between a young alpha and an older submissive girl?
    In your book you said that if you are alpha ,over X0% of women will survive the talk,but that ratio goes a little down if its an older women.

    For younger guys who will have the talk with an older woman,do you think “the talk ” success rate will go down to 50% of lower?

    because there are 2 downisdes: 1.you are younger than her and she doesnt want to be “judged” by the people around her,and 2.you will fuck other girls and she has ASD.

     

  95. Facts: Younger women 18-23 smell better……I suspect they throw off much more pheremones. By 32+ the smell starts to sour …. Only men who have been with lots of women of varying ages can discern this. Young women smell like berries…naturally fragrant. Their skin and hair are naturally supple.  I can tell a woman’s age-range by her smell and also by skin/hair texture – look.

    Secondly, women’s private part dry out with age.  I guess the equivalent in males in the softening of the erection or the lower quantity of ejaculate or ejaculatory force with age.  Young women’s part lubricate easily, quickly, at the slightest provocation.  Older woman noticeably get drier, less natural lubrication, more attention needed to get the necessary lubrication going.  the decline is noticeable post 32……..

    Fact: you’re most likely a virgin.  Seriously just stop.  You posted this same shit under a different username.  I’ve been with hot 20 year old’s as dry as a bone (inexperienced days) and 40 years old so wet it felt like I was fucking slip and slide.  Shit I have had several 40 years just recently squirt all over me.  My goat tee is drenched by the time I’m done.  Same goes for smell.  Been with 20 year old’s who smelled like a fish factory (yeast infections and btw my dick didn’t care) and 40 year old’s who smelled like roses.

    Women dry as they age but its much much older than 32.  If you fuck a woman who is dry its because you can’t get her turned on, shes drunk or high on weed, or just not that attracted to you.  Of course if you’re fucking 50 year olds then yeah you have menopause to worry about which cause dryness

  96. @Felix

    Hello again!

    My question is, did you do the same to your husband? Did you make sure he clearly knows what he’s getting into, including the fact that he will be forced to stay with you, even if he no longer wishes to, or else you”ll make sure he suffers the corresponding emotional consequences for leaving you (I say emotional, since you have previously stated that money is of no interest to you in case of a divorce)?

    Fiance, not husband. Do you mean does my fiance know that divorce, with children involved, will be emotionally painful, even if he initiates it? Of course he does. He is a human being, a pretty damn smart one at that. If I end up giving up my career for the kids (assuming this is a mutual decision he and I made together), he will likely have to pay financially as well.

    “You no longer love me/like that I give you drama/*insert reason here*/? Too bad, if you leave me, I will make sure to fuck your life up”

    Err…it doesn’t matter what your gender is. If the mother of your children/father of your children leave you, your life is fucked (to varying degrees). Single motherhood sucks. Single fatherhood probably also suck, but probably to a lesser degree. The bright sunny theory of outcome independence does not apply to your children.

  97. @Felix

    If the answer is yes, then I see nothing wrong in your relationship structure, and wish both you and your husband a long, happy marriage.

    Thank you!

    @Berti

    What I mean is that you will have a problem forging a serious relationship with a woman that lasts more than a decade (and having a relationship where a man and a woman have a children and raise them together until they grow up to adulthood), especially if you are reaching 40 and unable to be attracted in any way to all woman over 30. I personally find a life without such relationship to be unfulfilling, so I choose stability over variety and accept the boredom that comes with it.  But again, it’s your life.

  98. @Sabrina

     

    What I mean is that you will have a problem forging a serious relationship with a woman that lasts more than a decade (and having a relationship where a man and a woman have a children and raise them together until they grow up to adulthood), especially if you are reaching 40 and unable to be attracted in any way to all woman over 30. I personally find a life without such relationship to be unfulfilling, so I choose stability over variety and accept the boredom that comes with it.  But again, it’s your life.

    I have never ever thought about marriage or having kids ever, so that doesn’t even bother me at all. Having a serious rl that lasts even a decade, is something that scares me to death anyways. lol The thing is, you are a woman and women can’t be alone for too long. Many women over 30 even have kids with guys they are not even slightly attracted to just to become mothers and then they dump those guys later. It’s fascinating what a woman will do just to have children, they go from Chad to Bob, so to speak. No, fortunately, that’s something I am not jealous about.

  99. Caleb, Article Idea –

    UnMarriage – The ceremony but not the Legal state marriage license.  Advantages, Disadvantages, Potential legal pitfalls.

     

     

     

  100. Fiance, not husband. Do you mean does my fiance know that divorce, with children involved, will be emotionally painful, even if he initiates it? Of course he does. He is a human being, a pretty damn smart one at that. If I end up giving up my career for the kids (assuming this is a mutual decision he and I made together), he will likely have to pay financially as well

    That’s not what I meant. Divorces are usually emotionally painful, prenup or not (more so if there are children involved). What I mean is that if he knows that in the case of a divorce, instead of making it as amicable as possible, you’ll actually go out of your way in order to make sure that he suffers as much as possible, since that is the impression I have from your arguments both here and in past articles (correct me if I’m wrong). If he’s fully aware of that fact, then again, I see no problem with your relationship.

    Err…it doesn’t matter what your gender is. If the mother of your children/father of your children leave you, your life is fucked (to varying degrees). Single motherhood sucks. Single fatherhood probably also suck, but probably to a lesser degree. The bright sunny theory of outcome independence does not apply to your children.

    I don’t think I ever mentioned gender regarding this issue. I also don’t think that if you have children and get a divorce your life is fucked (unless your ex goes out of his/her way to make the transition as painful as possible). I know plenty of people who had children, got divorced in an amicable way, and are raising said children through shared custody;  The dads are paying child support religiously and staying with the children half of the time; nobody’s life got fucked up (though it was emotionally painful at first); shared custody works. I understand that it is not an ideal setup for the children (yes, outcome independence won’t apply to them), but in my opinion it’s least bad than raising them in a loveless, resent-filled “do it for the children”-type of marriage, just because one of the parties is forcing the other to stay through a legal contract. I’ve come to the conclusion (from personal experience with my own family) that such a setup would do more harm to the children than an amicable, shared custody one (provided both parents are responsible).

    I’m under the impression that even though you’d like your relationship to be a happy and fulfilling one, if worse comes to worst, you’d rather be in a loveless, soul-sucking, socially acceptable relationship than just going through a divorce, and moving on. I suspect that such a preference steams both from your traditional upbringing/culture and the fact that you don’t care wether or not TMM works, but that you want it to work (as you admitted in a previous thread). But to each their own I guess.

    By the way, I honestly enjoy debating with you over these topics. Please, keep commenting on this blog 🙂

  101. Fact: not a virgin John. bang count in the 100s ( not bragging)

    Younger chicks smell better. ( all things being equal ie. hygiene)
    They are juicier and have better natural lubrication………its just natural. Medical experts will tell you that the optimal age for females to have babies is between 17 -25.  This coincides with my anecdotal findings of their optimal desirability and physical appeal and physiological response.

    sorry if all this offends you. You can keep all those “cougars” and “milfs”. ………

     

     

  102. Sabrina,

    “What I mean is that you will have a problem forging a serious relationship with a woman that lasts more than a decade (and having a relationship where a man and a woman have a children and raise them together until they grow up to adulthood), especially if you are reaching 40 and unable to be attracted in any way to all woman over 30”

    Nonsense. stop projecting ur age insecurity issues on to men.

  103. I don’t “demand” monogamy and no prenup, I just screen out men who don’t offer it.

    Did you actually just type that? On purpose?

    Being a Dominant is great, men worship hot bitches (especially in the beginning stages of dating) although they don’t admit it

    Correction: beta males worship hot bitches. Absolutely true. And if a beta male is what you want (and I know it is!) then you’re on the right path! Keep on being that Dominant bitch and snag one beta after the next! But you won’t change any minds here at this blog.

    Being a career woman is also great

    I completely agree. (PF is one.) Just as long as she doesn’t get a penny of my money if she decides to divorce me and I’m allowed to fuck other women whenever I want.

    “Doesn’t care at all about the damage she causes to men later in life”? Absolutely incorrect. Where the hell are you getting this from?

    Refer to our conversation in the other thread where you clearly said you don’t want equality with a man, or a prenup, and want the option of destroying a man’s financial life whenever you feel like it.

    Caleb, you are not “all” or “most” or “a lot of” men, either.

    Yes, but the difference is I never said or implied otherwise.

    didn’t you say “Dominant” women compose 65% of the female population

    60-65%, yes. That leaves 35-40% who are not like you. 35-40% is a lot.

    I’m a lot more “statistically normal” than you are.

    Oh, you’re damn right about that. But again, I’m not the one who keeps implying otherwise.

    I don’t plan on cheating on my partner.

    …said almost every woman a few years before she cheated on her partner.

    How many of the millions of women who cheat on their men go into a new monogamous saying they’re planning on doing so?

    Hahaha, Stephanie, don’t worry, “many men” do not have such poor and distorted understanding of women.

    I will repeat to you what I said to Stephanie: Please state how these views are “distorted” (that women leave men, and often rape them in divorces) and show me facts and statistics that demonstrate your point.

    Sabrina, what is the reason you are here? Just to argue? Change minds? Many of us have lived these things and so it really doesn’t matter how you think things should be. What you think the way things should be and how they actually are, are entirely different, and you spamming up this post with arguments is kinda annoying.

    As I said in the last thread when she was doing this, her comments are extremely educational to all the men reading them even if some find them annoying. In this thread and others, she’s blatantly saying what many women are thinking and planning but will not say and instead just keep to themselves. So reading her comments is extremely valuable, as is usually the case when women come in here defending monogamy and TMM.

    And, as I said in the other thread, a few years from now she’ll make a comment on this blog, or another website, or send me a private email, talking about her divorce (or big breakup) and how I was right, just like just just about all other women who have defended TMM on here.

  104. Secondly, women’s private part dry out with age.

    You said women’s pussies start “drying out” at age 32. That is incorrect, since I’ve had sex with mountains of women post-32 and under-32 and almost never detected a noticeable difference in wetness or smell.

    For these reasons, all things being equal, there is no need for a man to seek older women if he has the same access to younger women.

    Incorrect, but I already addressed that in detail above to someone else and I’m not going to repeat myself.

    Yes, you do have some very handsome (they move from pretty to handsome) older women …JLO for example…Halle Berry… Aniston…but I already know for a fact from experience that once all the perfume and makeup is gone, that they smell a little sour and that their vags are bound to be dry

    False. Has not been my experience at all.

  105. Felix and BD beat me to it.

    This post would only have 15 to to 20 posts, but with SK we are on pace for two hundred.

    She is a great educational tool. No pun intended of course. 😉

    My opinion on tmm has worsened just by reading her posts. That thing is more totalitarian than I originally thought.

    Just like Felix said, you can raise your children perfectly fine post divorce, non marriage with shared custody. No need to hold each other hostage.

    She is so willing to double down her beliefs, when she knows deep down the whole thing is unnecessary. But she is right about betas in more than one respect. Nothing we didn’t know already though.

    Betas cause women to modify their behavior, while we  condition them to accept that our behavior is superior.

     

  106. As I said in the last thread when she was doing this, her comments are extremely educational to all the men reading them even if some find them annoying.

    QFT.

    She is great educational tool. No pun intended of course.

    QFT, no pun taken.

    Sabrina is funny.  Her argument is essentially……”We are not all like that”………then she proceeds to prove that she is in fact “just like that”.

    QFT.  Pay attention, kids.

    Stop being so cynical.  Most women are not out to bleed a man dry and then cheerfully move on to the next man!  It is sad and disturbing that so many men have such a poor and distorted understanding of women.

    Most?  Maybe.  Does it happen all the damn time?  Absolutely!  If you get married, is the potential ever NOT there?

    I went through an ugly divorce after a long term marriage.  The lie I told myself over and over again was “that won’t happen to me.”  Welp….I was wrong, because….

    She’s a girl. The odds are quite high she’ll leave at any age (under 60), regardless of the internal/emotional reasons she has to be with you.

    QFT.

  107. For guys in their 20s who want to have a mltr with an older women,do you think is possible to get her by using the 85% player/15%provider game?

    Yes.

    do you think its possible to get in a mltr relationship with an older women who will submit to me,like submissive women submit to alpha 1.0 guys?

    Sexually, yes.

    Outside of sexually, that would be difficult (but doable if you’re willing to put in the work).

    Where i live(Belgrade,Serbia) i know 5 couples older women /younger guy,but in every case the women is a dominant and the guys is beta,also on the internet all the articles about older women /younger men relationships are between a dominant and a beta guy.

    Exactly.

    How many couples do you know,between a young alpha and an older submissive girl?

    Outside of sex, zero. (I don’t count those couples where the guy is like 4-5 years younger; that’s not really that “younger” in my view.)

    In your book you said that if you are alpha ,over X0% of women will survive the talk,but that ratio goes a little down if its an older women.

    Correct, because of that fuckin’ ASD.

    For younger guys who will have the talk with an older woman,do you think “the talk ” success rate will go down to 50% of lower?

    Hard to say. Too many factors.

    UnMarriage – The ceremony but not the Legal state marriage license. Advantages, Disadvantages, Potential legal pitfalls.

    That’s OLTR Marriage, covered that in great detail in many places on this blog. Start here:

    https://blackdragonblog.com/2017/03/20/9-different-marriage-legal-structures/

    Medical experts will tell you that the optimal age for females to have babies is between 17 -25.

    Now that’s the one thing you’ve said in this thread that actually has some real-life validity. Yes, what you just said is accurate, but as I clearly stated in the article, I’m not taking about having babies; just talking about getting laid / dating.

    My opinion on tmm has worsened just by reading her posts. That thing is more totalitarian than I originally thought.

    Precisely.

    Women like Sabrina help my message and my branding. They always have. That’s why I encourage them.

  108. @Berti

    I have never ever thought about marriage or having kids ever, so that doesn’t even bother me at all. Having a serious rl that lasts even a decade, is something that scares me to death anyways.

    Then we have no argument. I think a (1) desire to have an offspring and (2) desire for a pair bonding companionship with the opposite sex (that lasts for more than a decade) are perfectly normal (if not universal) desires both genders have (definitely not just women). If you don’t have either desires, and confident you won’t have them for the rest of your life, I would say you are definitely an anomaly.

    @al

    Your comments about older men’s lack of vaginal lubrication and young girls “smelling like berries” suggest you are not likely to have an intellectual conversation, but I’ll give you some attention as well because you personally mentioned me two times on separate comments.

    Sabrina is funny.  Her argument is essentially……”We are not all like that”………then she proceeds to prove that she is in fact “just like that”.

    Its not her fault though, her female nature demands that she be offended by men who understand female nature and the female imperative.  Men who are prepared to organize their lives in a way that maximize the male imperative or at least limits the damage that the female imperative can cause make her feel uncomfortable.

    My argument, so far, here has nothing to do with how I am “not like other girls”. In fact, I am very much “like other girls” because I am a woman, and I’m pretty damn happy I am a woman. I find many of the comments here ridiculous (especially when they pertain older women giving out “sour smells”), but not “offensive” or “uncomfortable”.

    My arguments here, which have been very consistent, have been (I have retracted a few, including definition of happiness):

    (1) Women’s “ASD” (in varying levels) is partially a reaction to men’s “slut shaming” behaviors/ Madonna-whore complexes (in varying levels). To say they are unrelated and purely a feminine invention (which was CSR’s point) is ridiculous.

    (2) OLTR marriage is a non-optimal relationship for women (especially for those who want to have children), especially when traditional marriage is a societal norm. (So I’m fundamentally against Caleb’s article on “Best Path for Women”)

    (3) To think “alpha 2.0″‘s competition is only “beta men who bore women to death” or “needy alphas who frustrate women to death” is also very simplistic and largely untrue, as most men fall within a non-extreme scale of alpha/beta spectrum, where both women’s boredom or frustration within a monogamous relationship with men are manageable.

    (4) As a result of (2) and (3), a long term OLTR marriage is unfeasible for men over 40 unless (1) either you pair bond with a younger woman in her 20s – early 30s, have kids with her, and fully expect her to rely on you financially (which is a worse deal for the girl than for you, by the way, as this will result in an unequal relationship dynamics); or (2) you pair bond with a woman over 35 and do not have kids with her; or (3) you compromise significantly on the “quality” of your pair bonding partner relative to your own RMV.

  109. @Duke

    This post would only have 15 to to 20 posts, but with SK we are on pace for two hundred.

    Hahaha. I know. I love attention, and you guys keep giving it to me. I also genuinely like this blog a ton (I actually learned a lot as a woman), and I don’t mind Caleb benefiting from more traffic. The downside of this to my real life is near zero. 🙂

    @BlackDragon

    Did you actually just type that? On purpose?

    If I remember correctly, when I said before that you “demand nonmonogamy”, you said you don’t demand anything of women, and simply next them if they don’t go along with your system. I’m doing exactly the same. In both my relationships, monogamy was pitched by men first.

    You guys keep harping on “beta males”, and seem to imply beta males are of “less quality mates” for women. But Caleb, in your posts, Barack Obama is “beta”. Mark Zuckerberg is “beta” (both very “confident” versions). I cannot think of any women who would say Obama or Zuckerberg would be a bad marriage candidate (compared to extreme alpha’s such as Donald Trump or Tom Cruise).

     

     

  110. @Felix

    What I mean is that if he knows that in the case of a divorce, instead of making it as amicable as possible, you’ll actually go out of your way in order to make sure that he suffers as much as possible, since that is the impression I have from your arguments both here and in past articles (correct me if I’m wrong). If he’s fully aware of that fact, then again, I see no problem with your relationship.

    Hmm, this made me think. I genuinely do not foresee a divorce, and genuinely cannot fathom cheating on my fiance (I have never cheated on a man in a monogamous setting, nor have been cheated on to my knowledge). I strongly desire a pair bonding relationship to a level of “Disney“, and my partner also has “Disney” – being a good spouse and a good parent is in both of our priorities, beyond our careers (although we are both highly educated and ambitious). And I think both our “Disney“s will help us achieve lifetime pair bonding that is pleasant, rewarding, and fulfilling for both of us, not to mention our future children (two parents staying together until the children grow to adulthood is miles better for the children than two parents getting a divorce in the middle) – because we are *both* desperate to make it work, and we *both* try very hard to make each other happy (yes, this includes working on each other’s communication style, just like Caleb and Pink Firefly is doing).

    Now that said, in case my husband, for some reason, wants to exit the relationship and leave me and our children, I would feel incredibly betrayed and I do not think an “amicable divorce” would be an option at that point. And yes, he definitely knows this about me, I’m not the kind to “hide” myself from my partner.

     

  111.  (I have never cheated on a man in a monogamous setting, nor have been cheated on to my knowledge).

    Hmmm. Fair enough. But you’ve been in relationships that have ended, right? It’s always been amicable, no hard feelings on either side? You mutually sat down and decided that your paths were different? And those guys were completely different from the Fiance, with whom none of those issues will arise? Or if they do, you’ll both make an extra special effort to overcome them, because of the sacred oath of matrimony? And shared parenthood?

    If you don’t mind sharing your thoughts ….

    By the way, I think you are being quite logical and smart. I’m pretty sure you’ll get the guy you’re looking for. I’m pretty sure a lot of female collaborators and clients I’ve worked with share your ideas and aspirations, and I get on fine with them. Cool women. There’s just no way on earth I’d have a serious relationship with any of them. But plenty of other men would think you are a prize worth fighting for and paying the price you ask.

     

  112. @Felix

    I’m under the impression that even though you’d like your relationship to be a happy and fulfilling one, if worse comes to worst, you’d rather be in a loveless, soul-sucking, socially acceptable relationship than just going through a divorce, and moving on.

    I am genuinely so confused why people assume my marriage would inevitably turn into a “loveless, soul-sucking” relationship (actually, don’t answer me, I do. Because the main audience of this blog, and Caleb himself, went through divorce themselves and see the world through that experience). I have so many examples of perfectly functional monogamous marriages in real life (in my immediate family, for one – my parents are very much in love after 25+ years of marriage and travel together all the time. They do fight, of course, but resolve their fights incredibly quickly) that I assign high probability that we’ll be perfectly happy.

    I understand that it is not an ideal setup for the children (yes, outcome independence won’t apply to them)

    Exactly. My college roommate’s parents went through an amicable divorce (the “we are great partners but we are no longer in love” divorce) when my roommate was in her sophomore year of college. Although she was 20, she went through so much emotional anguish that she ended up taking antidepressants prescribed from her therapist. My current flatmate (in graduate school)’s father remarried (after what seems like an amicable divorce) when my flatmate was in high school. Whenever her father and her stepmother visits, she is still so visibly angry at her stepmother and she wallows in weed in her room for a week after. Both of these girls’ lives are “not fucked”, of course – they are both very high-functioning, kind, and decent girls. But their pain is real. I can only imagine what children go through when their parents go through a divorce in children’s formative years, and I do not want my children to go through that pain.

  113. By the way, regarding the thing about younger men / older women usually involving beta men and dominant women, it’s probably quite true. But it’s not a bad way to come to terms with your Inner Beta and learn the lessons from personal experience. At least you are less likely to get into contractual obligations and get divorce raped. It’s not nearly as bad as staying a beta into your early 30s and marrying a younger dominant. The dynamics are usually a bit more explicit when you’re a young guy. If you came out of the egg as a fully hatched Alpha 2.0, fine. But most guys don’t do that. So it’s a good learning experience, with a lot of compensatory benefits.

  114. @Sabrina

    If you don’t have either desires, and confident you won’t have them for the rest of your life, I would say you are definitely an anomaly.

    Maybe I am but maybe I am just a man who lives his nature. There is a reason why men can impregnate hundreds of women they don’t even love. If the woman is lucky he will always love and take care of her but chances are he will seek for other women and leave. That’s why marriage itself is just a hoax, a programmed social construct, it’s not natural in any way. This is why I believe most men don’t think about having kids before they get married and they mostly marry in order to be with the woman they love, not because they like the idea of marriage. Once they do though having children is just the next natural step. However, the high divorce rates speak for themselves.

  115. I have so many examples of perfectly functional monogamous marriages in real life

    @Sabrina: per BD’s definition, if one or both sides in this “perfectly functional monogamous marriage” cheated even ONCE, it’s a de facto nonmonogamous marriage, just more dysfunctional than an OLTR marriage. Forgive me if I’m wrong and missed the comments where you did, but I am not aware you ever addressed this point.

    IINM it’s pretty much the entire thrust of BD’s argument: it’s not so much that nonmonogamy is “awesome”, it’s simply that perfect monogamy fails, so might as well have a nonmonogamous arrangement, because monogamous couples eventually cheat. One of you two is going to fuck someone else if only once or twice in an entire decade, EXCEPT that if you’re monogamous, they’d have to be dishonest about it, while in an OLTR marriage neither of you is wronging the other.

    Let’s assume for a minute that we leave aside (1) children, (2) the “he can easily leave me anytime he wants” bit; say you’re with a “partial alpha 2.0″/ “higher beta” who would actually be very sad for several months if you broke up.
    What do you find so terrible about the OLTR marriage in that scenario? It’s functionally identical in every way to your TMMexcept that when the cheating finally happens, it’s actually not cheating, neither of you betrayed the other. How on earth is this worse than TMM?

  116. New Disney movie: “Beta and the Dominant

    She comes to a blog that gives men the tools for building relationships that maximize pleasure and reduce financial and emotional risks…then proceeds to admit she is marrying a beta she knows she will get bored with, so she intentionally structures the relationship in a way that allows her to destroy his life if he ever wants to break up…while her “happily” married friends and family cheer her on.

    And they lived happily ever after.

    The end.

  117. so she intentionally structures the relationship in a way that allows her to destroy his life if he ever wants to break up

    LMAO. The idea that this is just “a woman’s way of doing what BD does” is hilarious. OLTRs aren’t even close to being as abusive as this, if they’re abusive at all. If the man in an OLTR is hanging a “threat” over the woman’s head, at worst the threat is “I can easily leave whenever you give me too much drama”. No way to compare this to “I will destroy the next 20 years of your life” in good faith. All this talk of TMM being a morally symmetrical female strategy vis-à-vis OLTR is bunk.

  118. Not sure if I qualify as an older woman yet (I’m 38) but I’m certainly past my prime to many of you if I guess I do lol

    Just want to share my view as I know my ASD is 100% social programming. I actually married quite young the first time in my early 20s, my ex and I divorced when I was in my early 30s due to him having a girlfriend on the side. We have a son together who was 3 when we divorced.

    After my divorce I had an EXTREMELY strong physical desire to fuck around, and I am definitely attractive enough to get more dicks than I can handle, but somehow I just can not bring myself to do it. Multiple times I found myself in a night out looking for some fun, and when a man presented himself I immediately pulled back.  In many ways I care about how my friends see me, worry about my own safety, how I would appear to the man and everybody else, thus impacting how I would see myself. Basically, I don’t want to be a slut. I do think if the society changes and do not judge women to be broken or a slut, ASD would disappear and a lot more men would get laid.  In my opinion the men are at least 60% of the problem.

    To prove my point, I am now in a 3 year relationship with a man who is 7 years younger than me, and we are planning to get married in the near future. He was 27 when we met and I did not sleep with him until we were monogamous (I know I know, mono doesn’t work blah blah, but I don’t have a choice lol).  In his own words, me making him wait actually helped seal the deal as he would likely see me differently and things would change if I had slept with him on our first date. Amongst his friends they would discuss how sleeping with a girl too early somehow destroys the magic and the possibility of a relationship. They even said if you really like the girl you should probably wait too, and that’s coming from a group of men in their 20s!

    So in many older woman’s defence – Our ASD is more of a form of female game/self defence mechanism, it doesn’t really have much to do with desperation at all. In fact I was more desperate about getting laid than to lock down a man post divorce, and getting laid to me is so easy and yet so hard due purely to my own self judgement. And for the record, I am very open to this OLTR thing, but I have never met a man who is open to it, and that would include my cheating ex-husband 😄

  119. @CCMidwest @Antekirtt

    so she intentionally structures the relationship in a way that allows her to destroy his life if he ever wants to break up

    This actually made me laugh out loud. Yo, I’m getting married, I’m not *intentionally structuring* any relationship structure. Caleb is the one who is *intentionally structuring* things that is outside of a societal norm. Also – who do you think invented marriage? Men or women?

  120. @Antekirtt

    if one or both sides in this “perfectly functional monogamous marriage” cheated even ONCE, it’s a de facto nonmonogamous marriage, just more dysfunctional than an OLTR marriage.

    I highly doubt my parents cheated on each other, not even once, and I highly doubt they ever will.

    Now, a man cheating on his wife *once* is materially different from a man telling his wife “I will always be fucking other women for the rest of my life.” For the record, I dislike both, and will not be entering a pair bonding relationship with any men that I can reasonably foresee would do either. I agree the latter is more “truthful” than the former. But for most women, the former is likely more tolerable than the latter.

    Let’s assume for a minute that we leave aside (1) children, (2) the “he can easily leave me anytime he wants” bit

    I’m saying “X is non-optimal because of A and B”, and you’re saying “let’s put A and B aside for a moment, how is X so bad?” Stop grasping at straws.

    OLTRs aren’t even close to being as abusive as this, if they’re abusive at all.

    If you read previous thread when this was discussed, the word “abuse” was first used by Caleb when he was discussing marriage, and my comment was “IF TMM is abusive, OLTR is equivalently abusive”. I do not think either OLTR structure or a traditional marriage structure to be inherently “abusive.”

  121. Not sure if I qualify as an older woman yet (I’m 38) but I’m certainly past my prime to many of you if I guess I do lol

    38? Shit, you’re probably all dryed up and smell sour by now lol

    In my opinion the men are at least 60% of the problem.

    You’re a slut if you “put out” too quickly, a “good girl” if you wait the right amount of time (whatever the fuck that is), and a prude or manipulative if you wait too long.

    By far that’s the number one complaint my FB‘s have had about men (that and being shitty in bed and letting her boss them around haha)

     

  122. So Sabrina, the $64,000 question.

    Given that:

    — you admit a divorce, cheating and/or getting loathed by your spouse would be extremely painful to you;
    — one or more of the above are likely outcomes of a typical TMM as observed by statistics;
    — you claim to be a typical woman;
    — your fiancé has not been carefully selected out of a large pool to maximize certain traits but rather is a typical man that, as is typical, has entered your life through a series of coincidences;

    what makes you believe your typical marriage is unlikely to meet the typical outcome?

  123. So in many older woman’s defence – Our ASD is more of a form of female game/self defence mechanism, it doesn’t really have much to do with desperation at all.

    I don’t consider it “ASD“.  For some women like you it can take a lot emotionally to sleep with a man.  Specifically, I know a woman who was very promiscuous when she was younger and it didn’t matter because she didn’t develop feelings for men.  She couldn’t even orgasm in her early years and thru-out her entire marriage.  But then she did what you did after a divorce (wanted to just get fucked)  met the wrong guy, and she caught the feels after a second date fuck when she to her surprise orgasm-ed (obviously there was a lot more to the guy than just sexual skill) for the first time in her life.  Rocked her world and she was obsessed with the guy.  Unfortunately guys with that level of experience, skill, and most importantly attraction level don’t do monogamy, marriage, or settle down and have babies.  That’s the fear I see with most women over 35.  Not slut shaming but sleeping with a guy, getting her hopes up, falling for a guy, and being disappointed.  Over and over and over.  And it is a concern for women over 35 due to a mans drive being almost completely based upon outward appearance and most importantly “variety”.  Then you add in men that age have been thru a lot of shit just like women that age have.  You probably did the smart thing in getting with a younger guy and he’s a lucky man.

     

  124. @Pseudonymous User

    If you really want to play the statistics game on an individual case (me):
    (1) Both my partner and I are getting married for the first time;
    (2) Both my and his parents are happily married;

    (3) Both my partner and I are college educated (and higher);

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/04/education-and-marriage/

    (4) Both my partner and I have high “Disney” and actively desire lifetime pair bonding and children

    All these statistically skew a possibility of a long lasting marriage in our favor.

    Again, I repeat, I am a typical woman in that I am a “Dominant”, drama-tolerant woman who desire children with typical female (subconscious and conscious) mating strategies. I am not typical in *all* senses, honey, as I said, I am smarter and prettier than most 🙂

  125. There’s no evidence that aspects in which you differ from a typical woman actually work in your favor, so let’s keep looking at the data.

    Out of 100 marriages where both partners, college educated, married for the first time, survive (literally) the 20-year mark, 22 are estimated to end in divorce or separation, an undefined amount of cheating will occur and some couples will make the world believe they’re the happiest couple ever but will secretly despise each other.

    Apparently somewhere around half of cases of infidelity don’t end in divorce, so I wouldn’t be straying that far from the mark if I estimate (very roughly) that another 20% of marriages will experience cheating but not a divorce. Add the possibility of other things going sour and you’re looking at fifty-fifty chances at best.

    What’s the most you’ve ever lost on a coin toss?

  126. any men that I can reasonably foresee would do either

    You’re either being delusional about how prevalent cheating is, or you’re ignoring the Western world, which is what this blog is like 90% about.

    Stop grasping at straws

    Um, no. You clearly think that even in a relationships were kids aren’t involved and men don’t necessarily break off as easily as BD would, OLTR would still be a worse deal than TMM. Therefore I’m fully justified in isolating the case I described from those two factors. Now please answer my question.

    the word “abuse” was first used by Caleb when he was discussing marriage, and my comment was “IF TMM is abusive, OLTR is equivalently abusive”. I do not think either OLTR structure or a traditional marriage structure to be inherently “abusive.”

    You’re evading the point. You do not think either is abusive, and you think that if TMM is abusive then OLTR is equally abusive, and I disagreed with both and gave my reasons. Give your rebuttal.

    I’m getting married, I’m not *intentionally structuring* any relationship structure.

    You’re evading again. You obviously didn’t come up with the structure, but you’ve fully admitted that you’re intentionally picking a structure that will severely punish the man should the relationship be terminated.

  127. If you really want to play the statistics game on an individual case (me):
    (1) Both my partner and I are getting married for the first time;
    (2) Both my and his parents are happily married;

    (3) Both my partner and I are college educated (and higher);

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/04/education-and-marriage/

    (4) Both my partner and I have high “Disney” and actively desire lifetime pair bonding and children

    All these statistically skew a possibility of a long lasting marriage in our favor.

    You might make it.  Me and my ex would still be together if she didn’t develop a drinking problem.  We both checked all the statistical boxes and she never cheated and neither did I.  But, that’s the risk of marriage.  People change over time.  They develop mental issues, health issues, their morals change, tragedies strike, or substance abuse issues arise.  And even if they don’t there’s the likelihood that one of you won’t be happy for the majority of the marriage.  Then children increases the likelihood one of you won’t be happy.

    In the end I don’t think anyone (on here at least) believes that marriage is guaranteed to lead to unhappiness and eventually end in disaster, just that it’s very likely.   Especially unhappiness.  At least one of you will be unhappy most likely.

  128. 38? Shit, you’re probably all dryed up and smell sour by now lol

    SO sour, I don’t even know how my boyfriend can stand it after sleeping with all those 20 something year olds lol

    @John

    My experience has not been that extreme at all, and for the most part I’ve had successful relationships. Even with my first marriage, we were together for 10+ years before it fell apart, that would be a success by BD’s standard =)

    I also do not think men are that extreme either, looks certainly matter but the standard is not that high. Variety though is of course something men would want but so do women to be honest. I think people just want both – stability and variety, so I understand why BD would OLTR an older woman and have a younger FB on the side. Heck, if that is a socially accepted option, who wouldn’t want that? Both men and women can benefit from that construct. I can be very honest about myself, I conform to monogamy because I am decidedly lazy in the relationship side of things. I don’t like to rock the boat, I want a stable relationship because I do not particularly enjoy the constant game and having to open up and getting to know a new person intimately so often. When I was single I would usually be talking to 2-3 men at the same time and my God it took up all of my free time and even interfered with my work sometimes. I can not do that on a long term basis. In my experience men are mostly that way too. I also find more men to be introverts so it’s actually a lot of effort for them to go out and meet women. Anyway, even the hottest and youngest girl you would get sick of eventually, likely within a year’s time. The key is not to find someone older or younger, it is to find someone with the right character to maintain a healthy relationship with you in the long run for LTR, open or not.

  129. Variety though is of course something men would want but so do women to be honest. I think people just want both – stability and variety, so I understand why BD would OLTR an older woman and have a younger FB on the side. Heck, if that is a socially accepted option, who wouldn’t want that? Both men and women can benefit from that construct.

    Yep. Many, many people would benefit from (A) a decline in slut shaming, (B) more acceptance of nonmonogamy.

  130. I also do not think men are that extreme either, looks certainly matter but the standard is not that high.

    No most men’s standards are not but men over a certain age lose attraction for women their age much faster.  I see a lot of 2-3-4 week romances because of it.  Not to mention a lot women, in my experience, are bat shit crazy past a certain age when it comes to dating.

  131. @Antekirtt

    Forgive me if I’m wrong and missed the comments where you did, but I am not aware you ever addressed this point.

    and

    You’re being evasive again.

    To be clear, I am a random female commenter here whose only upside in participating in this conversation with you is my own enjoyment. I am under no obligation to cover every single concept of this blog in my comments, as I am not financially profiting from this blog. Also, I’m not being “evasive” when I point out factually incorrect comments (i.e. that I am somehow *intentionally structuring* any relationship structure). But I’m a nice girl so I’ll still answer your questions.

    One of you two is going to fuck someone else if only once or twice in an entire decade, EXCEPT that if you’re monogamous, they’d have to be dishonest about it, while in an OLTR marriage neither of you is wronging the other.

    Let’s assume for a minute that we leave aside (1) children, (2) the “he can easily leave me anytime he wants” bit; say you’re with a “partial alpha 2.0″/ “higher beta” who would actually be very sad for several months if you broke up.
    What do you find so terrible about the OLTR marriage in that scenario?

    To make your argument “OLTR marriage is not *so* terrible for women”, you have fundamentally changed the OLTR marriage structure Caleb has laid out in multiple ways in this scenario.

    (1) “Fuck someone else if only once or twice in an entire decade” is materially different from always making sure you are fucking someone else consistently for the entirety of the marriage (which is clearly what Caleb advocates; other than that it is “de facto monogamy”);

    (2) Alpha 2.0’s main difference from a “confident beta” is outcome independence and he setting up a frame to the woman that “I can easily leave you anytime I want for any reason I want with minimal consequences”. So “leaving aside” this point changes the relationship dynamic completely;

    (3) I have pointed out that OLTR marriage with no kids is likely more tolerable for women than OLTR marriage with kids. So the women who will be feasibly tolerant with OLTR marriage will be either (1) young women who do not want kids, and who is confident she will not want kids for the rest of their lives – very, very rare; (2) older women who either already have had kids and went through a divorce, or decide she won’t have children for the rest of her life (Pink Firefly). So “leaving aside” the children conversation when talking about a pair bonding relationship (when a biological function of a sexual relationship is producing offspring) is ridiculous;

    Given that you changed Caleb’s OLTR marriage structure so much you basically reinvented your own little relationship model (which may or may not be feasible) – see, you’re grasping at straws – my argument that Caleb’s OLTR marriage structure is non-optimal for women, and unfeasible with desirable women at their RMV peak, still stands.

  132. Caleb’s OLTR marriage structure is non-optimal for women, and unfeasible with desirable women at their RMV peak

    Once again, it’s not. The optimal structure for a woman is a no-prenup traditional marriage with a rich beta male who will do her bidding. Preferably with a hotwife kink so he accepts and encourages her fucking other men.

    BD is rather cautious to give advice to women, and I believe he never claimed his OLTR structure is women’s best option. It seems it’s great for men and OK for women. On the other hand, what’s great for women seems to be miserable for men.

  133. @Pseudonymous User

    BD is rather cautious to give advice to women, and I believe he never claimed his OLTR structure is women’s best option.

    https://blackdragonblog.com/2014/12/14/best-life-path-women/

    It seems it’s great for men and OK for women.

    And unfeasible, if you want pair bonding with a women in her 20s – early 30s. What I am saying is Caleb’s fantasy open marriage with Emilia Clarke (or any other attractive women in her 20s – early 30s who want children) in below article is, well, a fantasy. Unless, of course, you financially provide for the girl in question almost exclusively.

    https://blackdragonblog.com/2012/09/09/but-how-would-an-open-marriage-oltr-actually-work/

  134. Sabrina, u say the unfeasable model is unfeasable unless…….

    Therefore it is feasible. Like most things in life, there is a value exchange calculation both parties make.

    If a man can address a woman’s hardwired instinct for security enough…..then the oltr can and does work for 20s-30s women.

    What ends up happening is that that relationship morphs into a mild polygamy and man with mistress/kept women.

    Its quite common…..especially with men who can afford it or are willing to pay up. Think about it……what is the woman’s main goal in marrying ?

    Underlying it all is “security”. Once that is addressed enough, most women will put up with just about anything.

  135. Wow

    it seems like SabrinaK has never read BDs prediction about the near future…

    where women are unable to compete against the new sex robots

    lol

     

  136. Long story short. My boss is jealous of my relationship with another co-worker. She gets mad when she sees me talking to her. Several times when this colleague asked to go with her to the bank for example, my boss always told her no, for her to go with someone else. Last week she stopped talking to me for three days because that colleague wanted me to go with her to the bank. Is this my boss’s only friendship and friend jealousy? Can someone help me figure out what this is?
    Sorry for my bad english

  137. Yeah, once fembots get to near natural quality in looks and interaction: Alexa/Siri…..

    You can forget about large amounts of men even looking at real women. Mgtow and porn on steroids.

    That is the day when feminism and all of its pretensions will crack.

  138. SabrinaK has very articulately and patiently explained why the OLTR model is not attractive to *HER*.

    She then generalizes her reaction, and assumes that the majority of women in her situation – young, attractive, successful, hoping for motherhood  – will also not buy into this model. She could well be right – I have no idea myself.

    BD (and everyone else who may have first or second hand experience with this)…

    How many couples do you know who are doing this successfully? With women in SabrinaK’s demographic, that is.

     

  139. How many couples do you know who are doing this successfully? With women in SabrinaK’s demographic, that is.

    Many of my current and recent FBs, who are young, Dominant women in their 20s, are in OLTRs. They basically tell their young, thirsty, beta boyfriends that they’re going to fuck other men, particularly older men, and if they (the boyfriends) don’t like it, they can fuck off. Betas being what they are, they (grudgingly) agree.

    Not the kind of OLTRs I endorse of course, but they are indeed OLTRs.

    It’s very likely Sabrina will end up doing something like this herself eventually. It’s very easy to see her throw down with her future beta husband/BF that she’s going to fuck other dudes for whatever reason and he just needs to shut the fuck up about it (which he probably will). I see more and more young women doing this, and you’ll see more as economics continue to weaken in the West, as more liberal attitudes about sex prevail, and as sugar daddy game increases in popularity.

  140. @BlackDragon

    Many of my current and recent FBs, who are young, Dominant women in their 20s, are in OLTRs. They basically tell their young, thirsty, beta boyfriends that they’re going to fuck other men, particularly older men, and if they (the boyfriends) don’t like it, they can fuck off. Betas being what they are, they (grudgingly) agree.

    That’s because you meet your FB‘s in their 20’s on sugar baby websites. You’re dating (I mean, fucking, because you don’t “date” any women other than your wife) women in their 20s who have hyper gold-digging attitudes, and projecting their behaviors to more normal women in their 20s. Likely, the girls are telling their boyfriends “ugh, I don’t really want to fuck this old man either, but he helps out with rent!” (even if she is enjoying sex with you). You’re just focusing on a subset of very dominant, very deceitful, and very gold-digging women.

    It’s very likely Sabrina will end up doing something like this herself eventually. It’s very easy to see her throw down with her future beta husband/BF that she’s going to fuck other dudes for whatever reason and he just needs to shut the fuck up about it (which he probably will).

    This is such an incorrect reflection of my relationship that I started laughing. What you describe is abusive to men and something I (and I’d argue, most women) would never do (or even thought of). The above scenario will literally never happen.

    You also seem to take extreme views on how how spineless “beta” men are, and how abusive “dominant” women are. Which is understandable, extreme examples are great for marketing. As I said, the beta/alpha and submissive/dominant is a spectrum. I can tell you my fiance will never agree to the above scenario and will dump my ass immediately (as he should), it won’t be “easy”.

  141. @kevin

    it seems like SabrinaK has never read BDs prediction about the near future…

    where women are unable to compete against the new sex robots

    Yes, this is basically Japan.

    The men who using sex robots, and thinking it’s a “replacement” for a true pair bonded partner, are just….sad, to put it mildly. These men are equivalent to unattractive ladies with a vibrator and a million pets who has given up men (who are also…sad). Oh well, not my problem.

  142. That’s because you meet your FB‘s in their 20’s on sugar baby websites.

    Only some of them I’m referring to, about 60%. The other 40%, nope, normal girls. And either way, it still proves my point.

    Likely, the girls are telling their boyfriends “ugh, I don’t really want to fuck this old man either, but he helps out with rent!” (even if she is enjoying sex with you).

    In some cases I’m sure that’s true. Irrelevant. That’s still an OLTR. That’s what the commenter above was asking about.

    I can tell you my fiance will never agree to the above scenario and will dump my ass immediately

    Based on everything else you’ve said, the odds of that being accurate are very, very low.

  143. In other news, Roosh just announced that casual sex cannot be discussed on his forum anymore.

    I know!!! Oh, happy happy joy joy! Let Roosh and Krauser and all these other pickup dudes go hardcore Christian, lose vast swaths of their customers, and watch as little Blackdragon scoops them up and adds them to the fold…

    Oh god, all this stuff happening to the manosphere / red pill / PUA this year has been a dream come true for me… Better than if I had planned it myself… And at precisely the right time as I’m in the middle of massively expanding Alpha Male 2.0

  144. . I can tell you my fiance will never agree to the above scenario and will dump my ass immediately (as he should), it won’t be “easy”.

    Well, if you said it NOW, maybe. But what about if you say it in five or seven years? When you’re married and have a couple of kids? When a divorce will cost him half a million dollars and 50 percent of all future income? Where’s his angle? He’s got a lot riding on the fact that your feelings about this won’t ever change and evolve as you grow and you and your world change.

    Do you still think about things now the way you did ten years ago?

    Are you certain you won’t change ten years into the future?

  145. Meanwhile …in the background BD shuffles through his spreadsheets

    laughing and muttering to himself …. x many posts in y many days ..I predicted this with a 74.2 probability….women posting how ..biology ,logic , and social programming cannot apply to their own special rationalizations..

    and BD makes even more money !

  146. I’ve only slept with one older woman and will not do it again. She was only 40, trim and a professional dancer. The problem was her skin, there was a considerable difference to touch comparaded with a firm 20 year old. It grossed me out.

  147. Not sure if I qualify as an older woman yet (I’m 38) but I’m certainly past my prime to many of you if I guess I do lol

    Just want to share my view as I know my ASD is 100% social programming. I actually married quite young the first time in my early 20s, my ex and I divorced when I was in my early 30s due to him having a girlfriend on the side. We have a son together who was 3 when we divorced.

    After my divorce I had an EXTREMELY strong physical desire to fuck around, and I am definitely attractive enough to get more dicks than I can handle, but somehow I just can not bring myself to do it. Multiple times I found myself in a night out looking for some fun, and when a man presented himself I immediately pulled back.  In many ways I care about how my friends see me, worry about my own safety, how I would appear to the man and everybody else, thus impacting how I would see myself. Basically, I don’t want to be a slut. I do think if the society changes and do not judge women to be broken or a slut, ASD would disappear and a lot more men would get laid.  In my opinion the men are at least 60% of the problem.

    To prove my point, I am now in a 3 year relationship with a man who is 7 years younger than me, and we are planning to get married in the near future. He was 27 when we met and I did not sleep with him until we were monogamous (I know I know, mono doesn’t work blah blah, but I don’t have a choice lol).  In his own words, me making him wait actually helped seal the deal as he would likely see me differently and things would change if I had slept with him on our first date. Amongst his friends they would discuss how sleeping with a girl too early somehow destroys the magic and the possibility of a relationship. They even said if you really like the girl you should probably wait too, and that’s coming from a group of men in their 20s!

    So in many older woman’s defence – Our ASD is more of a form of female game/self defence mechanism, it doesn’t really have much to do with desperation at all. In fact I was more desperate about getting laid than to lock down a man post divorce, and getting laid to me is so easy and yet so hard due purely to my own self judgement. And for the record, I am very open to this OLTR thing, but I have never met a man who is open to it, and that would include my cheating ex-husband 😄

    Was very interesting reading your story Nicole. You may not have seen much of my other comments on here. But my OLTR and I are swingers. We have met so many women in the scene, older and younger, who absolutely love the opportunity to have sex with many many men and women if they are Bi. By society’s standards they would definitely be downright sluts. But when they end up in a loving relationship with a guy who is comfortable with their own and their partners sexuality, all of societies shackles come off and everyone is free to do as they like. Met so many women who just love let their hair down and getting it on with lots of others. Their guys are totally comfortable and accepting and mainly interested making sure their girls are happy. No judgement and total acceptance. There are all different levels, from girls who just like to fuck around with a few other guys at a party, girls who mainly like other girls (my GF), to girls who want to be gangbanged by every guy in the place. There are a lot of women out there who want to be way more sexually free than society and many men as you rightly point out feel comfortable. But there are also lots of guys and women out there who are already living quite free. If you want to be like that it wouldn’t be hard to find it if you go looking. 🙂 Can highly recommend it.

  148. “I’ve only slept with one older woman and will not do it again. She was only 40, trim and a professional dancer. The problem was her skin, there was a considerable difference to touch comparaded with a firm 20 year old. It grossed me out.”

    Yup.

  149. “I’ve only slept with one older woman and will not do it again. She was only 40, trim and a professional dancer. The problem was her skin, there was a considerable difference to touch comparaded with a firm 20 year old. It grossed me out.”

    Yup.

    Either you are lying or you got an outlier. No way there is that much of a difference. It they are hot and trim there is very little difference in skin if they look after themselves in my experience.

     

  150. “No way there is that much of a difference. ”

    Huge difference….palpable.

    But we men have been shamed into not even looking at women who are more than five years younger.

    Going forward..  look carefully and expand ur effort to date women in the prime biological bracket……..and will see.

    The only women older than 32 that I date are women who have been grandfathered in and i am 45…….as long as u have access to he 18-25 bracket and the skill and balls to get them it really makes no sense to go after older women. They are inferior is just about all aspects. And the ways in they are superior: career, finance, to young girl typically are not enough to make up for the disadvantages. Particularly for a man who is self sufficient and/or well off and doesn’t need an older woman’s career/finance.

    Older women are to betas as Younger women are to alphas.

    They like betas are only necessary as a safety net……….

    For hot women and self sufficient/well off or high game skilled men, betas like older women aren’t necessary and even constitute an annoyance most of the time.

  151. @BD: in your opinion, what percentage of women in the cute-hot range aged 25-32 would be down for high-end MLTR or OLTR with no marriage (of any sort) and no kids, and will not leave for at least about 4 years?
    Assuming the man is to their liking obviously, but no sugar daddying.

  152. Going forward..  look carefully and expand ur effort to date women in the prime biological bracket……..and will see.

    I’m 51 my OLTR is 23. I met her when she was 19 and I was 47. I was fucking girls who were 50, 40, 35 and in their 20’s when I met her. A lot of them were just as sweet as her body and skin wise. Unless they do bad shit their skin can stay quite nice.

    Maybe you are just fucking average older girls. Because some of the older girls l was fucking are smoking hot. Better than a lot of the younger ones. Not quite my 19 yo at the time, but pretty close.

  153. what makes you believe your typical marriage is unlikely to meet the typical outcome?

    Societal programming, obviously.

    Its not facts.

  154. @Incognito @BlackDragon

    Hello!

    Are you certain you won’t change ten yours into the future?

    The above scenario Caleb brought up – of my fucking around for whatever reason after ten years into marriage, while communicating that to my husband, and forcing him to “shut up” about it, and threaten him to stay with me via financial sanctions – is so ridiculous that I can safely say that won’t ever happen in my life. Whoever is doing this to their pair bonded partner I’d be the first one to say it’s reprehensible.

    Now, with that said, in an OLTR marriage, a woman has to “bank” on the fact the father of her children will stay with her for more than ten years and be emotionally exclusive with her, while the husband is structuring his life to make sure he is fucking at least more than one other woman for the entirety of the marriage.

    Are you certain this *man* won’t change ten years into the future? When I brought this up last thread, Caleb literally told me he will “never do this” to Pink Firefly and I was “grasping at straws”. Alimony and parental support is precisely invented because of destitute single mothers who were screwed by above scenario.

    In any successful pair-bonding relationship (especially with children involved), you have to bank on your partner to keep their end of the deal, and you yourself have to keep your end of the deal.

    When I was saying attractive girls in their peak RMV (wanting motherhood and who do not need to be financially supported) won’t go for OLTR marriage, I obviously meant Caleb’s version of OLTR marriage he is outlining in his blog, not these random variations you guys are making up to prove your point.

  155. Are you certain this *man* won’t change ten years into the future?

    Yes he is sure. 80% of all divorces and probably an equal or more percentage  of all breakups are initiated by women. Men are in fact more loyal (emotionally) the have a sense of honor that women just dont have and aren’t driven mostly be emotion.

    ” Alimony and parental support is precisely invented because of destitute single mothers who were screwed by above scenario”

    WRONG. Alimony and parental support was to support women post divorce in an era when women did not commonly work outside the home, go to college, have careers. Nowadays, women work, go to college+ at higher rates than men and have higher rates of employment. ..Not to mention the social saftey net…The concepts are largely an anachronism and the ‘destitute single mother’ tale was also largely false … a myth since it was the man who was also destitute.

    Again, u r ‘just like that’.

    Ur intentions are to use the current state of cultural affairs and legal system as cudgel to control ur beta husband into subservience and control.

  156. “I’ve only slept with one older woman and will not do it again. She was only 40, trim and a professional dancer. The problem was her skin, there was a considerable difference to touch comparaded with a firm 20 year old. It grossed me out.”

    Yup.

    Either you are lying or you got an outlier. No way there is that much of a difference. It they are hot and trim there is very little difference in skin if they look after themselves in my experience.

    No, I know what they mean. I’ve encountered what they’re talking about a few times as well, but that’s just it: a few times out of many women over 40.

    Are you guys saying you’ve never had an experience where you fucked a cute younger girl, and as soon as the clothes came off you realized she was gross underneath? Honestly? I’ve had those too.

    Saying “all women over 40 have gross skin” is just as dumb as saying “all younger women are hot”.

    @BD: in your opinion, what percentage of women in the cute-hot range aged 25-32 would be down for high-end MLTR or OLTR with no marriage (of any sort) and no kids, and will not leave for at least about 4 years?
    Assuming the man is to their liking obviously, but no sugar daddying.

    Too general a question. High-end MLTR and OLTR are two radically different things, OLTR could mean living together or not, you didn’t mention the income of the man, you didn’t mention other aspects the man would agree to, etc. Narrow down the question much more, then I can provide an answer.

    Are you certain this *man* won’t change ten years into the future? When I brought this up last thread, Caleb literally told me he will “never do this” to Pink Firefly and I was “grasping at straws”

    Correct, because I have a 30 year track record of literally never permanently breaking up with a woman unless she actually committed a violent crime. So yes, I will never get “bored” with Pink Firefly or “change” or whatever and just dump her for that reason. She would have to do something seriously out of character for her (massive drama, committing crimes, etc) first for me to dump her. (Now for her to dump me, oh, very different story, thus the protections of the OLTR Marriage.)

    I’m an old man. You’re a child in her 20s. And a female. You are going to change in the next 10 years. A lot. Watch.

  157. I obviously meant Caleb’s version of OLTR marriage he is outlining in his blog, not these random variations

    @Sabrina: you may want to listen to this podcast. CJ has always acknowledged such variations and at least partly endorsed them, you’re the one strawmanning by insisting on the exact, narrow type of OLTR that BD specifically wants to be in. Go to 8:25-17:23  and see his sample speech. He explains that this isn’t the speech he would give but that it’s valid in his system. This is what I’m talking about when I say that children aside, OLTRs are indistinguishable from a typical TMM except better because at least the “violations” aren’t ones/ aren’t done from a place of dishonesty/ deception/ breaking one’s promise.
    https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/bdpodcasts/Blackdragon_podcast_05_Serious_Pair-Bonded_Nonmonogamous_Relationships.mp3

    @BD: in your opinion, what percentage of women in the cute-hot range aged 25-32 would be down for high-end MLTR or OLTR with no marriage (of any sort) and no kids, and will not leave for at least about 4 years?
    Assuming the man is to their liking obviously, but no sugar daddying.

    Too general a question. High-end MLTR and OLTR are two radically different things, OLTR could mean living together or not, you didn’t mention the income of the man, you didn’t mention other aspects the man would agree to, etc. Narrow down the question much more, then I can provide an answer.

    @BD: OLTR, no marriage and no cohabitation, man earns over $75k in the western world but not much above (no debt); he might be helping her slightly with expenses but it’s limited and not framed as SB.

  158. @BlackDragon @C Lo

    I’m an old man. You’re a child in her 20s

    Jesus, I’m 26, not a “child.” Believe me. A young adult, sure, but not a child, hahaha. I’m likely more financially successful, happier, and have more nuanced and articulate views/arguments than the commenters here in their 40s/50s (cough, CSR, al, cough).

    I have a track record of making very self-conscious, rational, and optimal decisions in my adult life, and participating in couple of these threads convinced me marriage is indeed a right choice for me and my fiance. It has opened my eyes on how some women do take advantage of men in certain situations (as how some men do women), and those who are truly victimized by I am sympathetic to.

    I laugh when men harp at “chick logic” because it’s actually a lot more rational than you guys think (men just don’t comprehend it) – that’s why I’m doing you guys a service by being incredibly blatant about my views.

    If you guys *truly* think a woman in her mid-late 20s is a “child” (we are not), you shouldn’t be in a pair bonded relationship with them, period. (This is why I’m against serious relationships with very large age differential. Not jabbing on Caleb as his wife is in his mid-late 30s, but definitely on guys harping on older women’s “terrible skin” and “sour odor”. Of course, my ethical views aside, it’s highly unfeasible, the way Caleb structures it anyways). Why anyone would want to date, and procreate with, a “child” is beyond me (well, some guys here are living in a fantasy land where women will be fully replaced by sex robots, so not so surprised).

  159. Jesus, I’m 26, not a “child.”

    I took a upper division child development class once when I was married.  What I learned was that children start developing (physically and mentally) from the time they are born until they stop.

    When that is (and how fast) is radically different between individuals (I grew 2” in college), but most people stop physically between when they are 13-15.  This is established fact that Piaget and Vygotsky knew 100 years ago and nobody disputes even now.

    So I knew this, but I stupidly expected that dating in my 40s would be a snap compared to dating in my teens and 20s because everyone was older, more mature, etc.

    I was wrong.  Women in their 40s act exactly like they did back in the day, because either seventh grade never ends, or Piaget and Vygotsky work in child development had other utility than studying how kids develop.

    And from listening to the stories of women who were dating men in their 40s, things were the same on the other side of the fence.  But I knew that from dealing with customers and employees for a couple of decades.

    I don’t mind older women one bit. Or younger ones.  If she fits into my program and I fit into hers, that’s fine.

     

  160. @Marty

    so you mind telling me where do you live? I’m born and raised and have lived in very large major cities my entire life and I have never seen anything like that or have even met anyone like that. I’ve lived in Chicago, Hong Kong and Toronto.

  161. @Nicole

    I’m in Brisbane Australia. But you will find a large swinging community in any large city around the world. Bigger the city the more you will find. Its not surprising that you haven’t come across it. Neither had I until I got involved in it. It’s mainly couples and its a very secretive community. Lots of couples who swing, don’t let any of their other friends, work colleges or family know that they are doing it. But you would be very surprised who is involved. People from all walks of life and professions and all age ranges. From the outside most look like just your normal couples with kids etc living normal lives like everyone else.

    Most couples seem to find their way into it by accident or if one of the partners has been involved before or heard about it. Most of the women involved are usually bisexual. But not always. Its much easier for single women to get involved in it though. Especially if they are Bi.

  162. Gosh, I just don’t know what to do now that I’m a dried up old 40-something with gross skin that smells bad. I’m also wallowing in single motherhood. For some odd reason men still want to fuck me. Actually, the quality of men has gone way up from when I was younger. Maybe higher quality men just happen to have that kink, lol. The latest is a bodyguard for lots of famous people and he’s been in the media himself a bit. He is in his late 40’s so still older than me but why choose someone my age when there are so many younger women that he has access to? Not every guy is only into very young women. Like it or not we all get older so if you care at all about developing meaningful long term relationships you are going to have to get past the age objection eventually. Are you just going to drop someone when they hit 35?

  163. @Lovergirl: some commenters with classical PUA “once you’re 30 you’ve hit the wall and it’s over” preconceptions, is all. And yes I’d say types 1-2-3 more or less apply to guys as well, some guys are very into older women, some will only go for younger ones, and some, probably the largest set, can go for both. That said, I do think younger women have an advantage all else being equal. AFAIK this was tested even as directly as measuring boner intensity in men shown pictures of hot women of different ages. It’s just “all else being equal” doesn’t apply 100% in the real world, since over the years women can get better at looking hot, maintaining fitness, dressing, skin care, etc.
    But if you artificially equalized all factors (including exercise and diet, so it rules out working out harder to maintain appearance), yes, a 23yo is just hotter than she’ll be at 43. There are many reasons why she could have more guys chasing her at 43 than 23, and it often has to do with logistics and with how her life is set up. If both girls open an instagram account at those two respective ages, and again, with other factors kept equal, yeah the younger one is gonna have more clicks, likes, attempts at contact, etc. But if you’re a 6 or more it really doesn’t matter: a 45yo (for eg) who’s a 6-7-8 isn’t gonna have trouble getting good looking men.

    It can’t really be any other way: what exactly is improving, biologically speaking – and again, exercise and other factors set aside – , after 20-something? No one will dispute that 65 is less hot than 23, and that process starts right after one reaches adulthood. The early parts of it could be reinterpreted as “ruggedness” and viewed as attractive in men, which can make a 32yo man potentially hotter than a 20yo man – and past about 35 and perhaps earlier, it’s downhill for men too – but you’ll rarely hear someone say “rugged” makes a woman hotter, beyond maybe the first few wrinkles that could look “cute” or something. It’s just that between 20 and 50 the changes are less perceptible that past 50, and easier to conceal or even eliminate with various procedures (let’s say it’s like September isn’t as clearly past summer as December is, but the temperatures *did* peak before September). A simple way to check this is to look for the ages at which men and women respectively start putting significant effort into looking younger. Men aged 33 aren’t trying to look 24, but women are. Men aged 45 do try to look 35. Etc. If you don’t need to because you look younger than your age, that proves the point.

  164. @BD: in your opinion, what percentage of women in the cute-hot range aged 25-32 would be down for high-end MLTR or OLTR with no marriage (of any sort) and no kids, and will not leave for at least about 4 years?
    Assuming the man is to their liking obviously, but no sugar daddying.

    Too general a question. High-end MLTR and OLTR are two radically different things, OLTR could mean living together or not, you didn’t mention the income of the man, you didn’t mention other aspects the man would agree to, etc. Narrow down the question much more, then I can provide an answer.

    @BD: OLTR, no marriage and no cohabitation, man earns over $75k in the western world but not much above (no debt); he might be helping her slightly with expenses but it’s limited and not framed as SB.

    At least 70%, assuming the man does everything correctly (which most men don’t).

    why choose someone my age when there are so many younger women that he has access to?

    The Alpha Male 2.0 shouldn’t choose between one or the other. He should fuck both. (If he wants to, of course, and most men will.) I certainly do. Why limit yourself to just one age range? Doesn’t make sense to me. But that’s me.

    Beta males will choose the older women their age.

    Alpha Male 1.0s will either choose just younger women (for as long as he can at least), or will choose an older woman but cheat on her behind her back with younger women.

    Like it or not we all get older so if you care at all about developing meaningful long term relationships you are going to have to get past the age objection eventually. Are you just going to drop someone when they hit 35?

    Yes, actually. That is exactly what a lot of Alpha Male 1.0s either intend or fantasize about: the Tom Cruise / Donald Trump model, where you marry a hot younger woman, have a kid or two with her, and as soon as she hits her early 30s, go through a horrible divorce, then eventually do it all over again (new young girl, new marriage, more kids, another divorce), rinse and repeat over and over again, forever, until your very old age. (The only reason Trump stopped doing it is because he’s President now and Presidents aren’t allowed to get divorced.)

    I’m against this model because A) it’s monogamy and B) it’s not long-term consistent happiness; it’s up-and-down happiness, per usual Alpha Male 1.0 models.

  165. ‘Are you just going to drop someone when they hit 35?’

    Hmmm more or less……..or rather demote.

    In TMM many men do this by getting a younger mistress if they have the skill, opportunity, finances. Or some get sugar babies (invariably a younger woman) or prostitutes.

  166. “For some odd reason men still want to fuck me”

    Nothing odd about that…….

    “He is in his late 40’s so still older than me but why choose someone my age when there are so many younger women that he has access to?”

    Access to doesn’t mean that he has the confidence and skills to properly game, attract, and keep them….most men dont.

  167. Gosh, I just don’t know what to do now that I’m a dried up old 40-something with gross skin that smells bad. I’m also wallowing in single motherhood. For some odd reason men still want to fuck me.

    Here’s some advice.  When reading the comments don’t take posters seriously that show all the signs of not having pussy since pussy had them.  ; )  Most experienced men on this site sleep with and see the beauty in women from 18 to 40’s.  At  least the alpha males with high testosterone do.  They can’t help themselves.

  168. “When reading the comments don’t take posters seriously that show all the signs of not having pussy since pussy had them.  ; )  Most experienced men on this site sleep with and see the beauty in women from 18 to 40’s….. ”

    Cut the shaming language crap.
    Any man with REAL experience (50-100+) and by that i mean broad depth across all age ranges and who have game, skills, access, opportunity (most men DO NOT have all of these) will tell to you to go and kick rocks.
    Yes older women can be attractive ….but there is no need to go over age 32. What pray tell ….all things being equal..   would be the point unless the woman is grandfathered in (i.e. u knew her when she was younger and maintained the relationship).

    The differences is physical appeal are vast as females age. Heck, according obstetrics they are considered geriatric at 35 !!!!!!

    Science has confirmed why women have menopause. Apparently the male preference for younger females is so pronounced that natural selection eliminated the reproduction capacity of females past a certain age.

    Yes, all things are relative. So as a man ages the women he can easily get also goes up. But 35+ women should be for men 55+. Men should routinely target women 15-20 younger.

    The only reason men dont do it more in the US is due to Social Programming, shaming, and the great lengths the masochistic Puritanical cultural influence goes to making people especially men unhappy. So much so that men have convinced themselves to deny their own elemental truth.

    And why ? To save some females some discomfort…..they need to know the truth so that they can plan their lives accordingly.

  169. But if you’re a 6 or more it really doesn’t matter: a 45yo (for eg) who’s a 6-7-8 isn’t gonna have trouble getting good looking men.

    That seems to be what it boils down to. Of course our looks aren’t at their peak in our 40’s but it doesn’t really matter if you take care of yourself. Most men will still find you attractive and most aren’t able to attract much younger women themselves anyhow. The ones who can still often choose older women when they are older themselves, for whatever reasons. The guys that are online being nasty about it are still often not attractive to the younger women that they want to have and have to settle. I guess that’s just life.

  170. The only reason men dont do it more in the US is due to Social Programming, shaming, and the great lengths the masochistic Puritanical cultural influence goes to making people especially men unhappy.

    Now that is just 100% not true.  I know numerous men that are in their 20s and 30s who willingly date and even marry older women, and most of them have full access to all the young women and are “age appropriate” for them.   Myself included, my boyfriend can date a 22 year old and nobody would shame him, which he was totally doing A LOT of before he met me.  I even personally know a couple of cases where men had cheated on their younger wife with an older woman, in one case, the men even left the younger wife FOR an older woman.   It’s not like I do not think men like younger women, I like younger men too! But that is hardly as extreme as this person conveys.  Sure there are some general rules, but you don’t live generally now do you? In life, it’s ALWAYS case by case basis, ALWAYS.

  171. Right- the married guy that I have been sleeping with for 7-8 years now is younger than I am, and his wife I think is younger than him. He’s in his late 30’s. I was like 35 when we started having sex and thought he and I were the same age but found out recently he is actually younger. In any case he has a beautiful wife and sleeps around on her all the time. Some of the women he has tried to get me to have threesomes with with him have been as young as 21. I always turn down threesomes with other women but he still tries. Anyway, there is absolutely no need for him to keep sleeping with my old ass but he still wants to lol so it can’t be that bad. He actually told me the other day that I am still the best sex of his life (and I’m not really that kinky or anything but I know some of the women he has been with are). My age doesn’t seem to matter.

  172. @Lovergirl

    It looks to me that a few men here have bitterness against women and that putting them down for whatever reasons (ie. old, fat, single, educated, etc) makes them feel like some kind of justice has been served and they can finally emerge as a winner of some sort.

    Of course the vast majority of people are attracted in varying degrees to youth, women and men both, but this kind of extreme speech like women over 25/30/35 etc is untouchable is just plain delusional.  I don’t know what parallel universe they live in but if they want to pretend that women over 25 don’t exist it’s fine by me lol I am 38 and I know for a fact that it doesn’t reflect the values of the majority of men out there.  Let’s be grateful that we are surrounded by healthy and secured people in our lives that are not bitter or cynical like that!

  173. The world takes all kinds.  I’m not about to shade somebody elses choice in who they are attracted to.

    Question it?  Sure.  Who doesn’t say “I don’t get that one” from time to time?

    But if someone younger/older/ethnic/skinny/fat/basic is your jam (or, definitely not your jam), you do you.

  174. I’m in favor of everyone persuing what makes them happy.

    That said, there are Apex internet alphas that only pump and dump, only like the chase, dont appreciate female companionship, don’t like older women or single moms etc.

    That is their reality, and is a representative minority. No need to get upset by it.

    Women that would otherwise be undesirable in a traditional society are desirable in a non traditional society. No shock there.

    I had a woman once tell me that if women are fat and unattractive and there is still breeding going on what does that tell you? (She assumed women were desirable despite their traits).

    Bottom line is most men are needy, and will take what they can get. Nothing more and nothing less.

    I do appreciate Nicole giving her perspective. Men telling her about the magic that comes with women making them wait. That must feel cool, and it’s understandable why many women get off on that. BD had an article about the power of betas, and it’s legit.

     

     

  175. “I’ve only been saying that for 10 years: women hate being married,”

     

    I would take that article with a grain of salt. ……large amounts of women are under psychiatric supervision by means of antidepressants and ‘happy pills’ of all types. By almost any measure they are unhappier now that in decades past. This has coincided with the explosion of divorce, feminism, etc…

    Look we all live in the real world and the most tragic creature of them all is the spinster……..We all them in our families or know of them. They are ALL unhappy and neurotic…cat ladies anyone.

    Women are meant to pair bond and give birth…they are literally designed for that specific purpose. Their mental stability depends upon being able to orient themselves emotionally vis a vis a man/or men.

    So that study is incomplete or complete bollocks. The only thing unhappier than the man less childless aging woman is the beta incel.

     

  176. So Lovergirl and Nicole will continue the argue against obvious by mentioning the specific exceptions that they know of, but in fact arent really exceptions.

    To resolve this issue all you have to do is observe what men who have the choice to pick who they want due to having dame, skill, fame,power, opportunity, proximity, wealth, notoriety etc…… men who have the capacity and can exercise their choice uniformly go as young as they respectable can in choice of female.

    Are their exceptions..of course, you always have men with fetishes, quirks, special conditions, opportunists, the lazy, the confortable, etc…….but the general rule still holds.

  177. I’m not naming specific.exceptions. I’m in my early 40’s and have no trouble attracting men whatsoever. Thats men of all ages. If they all really only like younger women they wouldn’t bother with me. It hasn’t gotten any more difficult since I’ve gotten older. The quality of the men I am getting has actually gone up.

    Like I said, the latest guy I am seeing has opportunity, notoriety  and mild fame. The married guy I’ve been sleeping with has tons of opportunity and he’s also got financial means and mad sexual skills because he has slept with tons of women. They both can excercise all the choice they want and still choose to sleep with someone “old”. The other guy I sometimes sleep with has none of the above but he’s definitely got access to lots of women for sex if he wants (he used to host swinger parties at his house). In his case we could say it’s convenience that has him calling me because I live close by but if I’m so old and gross why bother?

     

     

  178. @Al

    If all men, as you say, are “biologically wired” to prefer younger women and will opt to dump their older partners to trade in for a “younger model” if they have the resources to do so, you are debunking Caleb’s argument that in OLTR arrangements, men won’t ever leave their OLTR partner for “getting bored”. If all “Alpha 1.0”’s “fantasize” about perpetually getting wives in their 20s by replacing out “old models,” what grounds do I have in assuming Alpha 2.0’s won’t do the same if the situation arises? Alpha 2.0’s only optimize for their maximum happiness and treat everyone else as fungible.

    Not that it’s much of a worry in my real life, as I’m happy with my partner.  Lovergirl, Nicole, and myself will happily go on our lives fucking and dating men who love and lust after us (whichever age bracket we are in), when you, Al, will likely spend your life fuming at younger girls you won’t be able to get soon (unless you pay for them) and at older girls because they smell “too sour”. But you do you. Good luck being happy!

  179. It’s not a big deal for older women to still have sexual options because like it has been said before, hot MILFS are sexually attractive to all kind of men and many women look even better in their 40s than 20s. But that doesn’t mean age is not a factor when it comes to feeling emotionally attracted to women. If a 40+ curvy Milf goes to a club then chances are that 99% of all guys between 18 and 40+ would love to fuck her and/or have a sexual relationship with. However they won’t stop lusting and looking for other women and they won’t stop dating younger chicks and many of them might even be in relationships with younger girls they actually love but if the oppotunity of sex is given then many if not most men, would take their chance.

     

  180. So Lovergirl and Nicole will continue the argue against obvious by mentioning the specific exceptions that they know of, but in fact arent really exceptions.

    Wrong. Actually you are naming exceptions. Check the statistics, marriages where men are 10+ years older than the wife are only about 8% of all marriages. Is a 50 year old man being with a women in her 20s the norm? Nope.

    Men with power money and fame also do NOT uniformly go to younger women, here are some very recent and significant examples:

    Jeff Bezos, the richest man on earth just divorced his wife for his alleged mistress who is in her *gasp* 50s!

    George Clooney married a much younger woman yes, but she was in her late 30s already when her

    Snapchat CEO Evan spiegel’s wife Miranda Kerr is 7 years his senior.

    Al, you accused the world for shaming your preference for very young women, all the while go to great lengths to shame others for being at all attracted to older women.  You not only felt the need to categorically put down all older woman, but also suggest that men who are attracted to older women must be in denial, or have problems attracting younger women, or are sexually inexperienced, and must be a beta and miserable. The hypocrisy is appalling.

    Al I am sorry that the fact that women are able to find love and sex throughout their lives bothers you, that their happiness bothers you. That you felt the need to undermine their lives. It really speaks to who you are inside as a person. I’m sorry you can’t come to terms to the reality and had to name exceptions to prove the reality is wrong or somehow twisted. It’s probably hard for you to see but you, are the male version of that “cat lady” that we all feel so sorry for. I am just here to say what I had to say, not trying to change any minds.  Time to move on now =)

  181. @Berti

    But that doesn’t mean age is not a factor when it comes to feeling emotionally attracted to women.

    Are you making a point here that *you* have issues being emotionally attracted to older women, or that the majority of men have issues being emotionally attracted to older women?

    I think it is an easier argument to make that men are, in general, more physically attracted to younger women than to older women, all else being equal (although of course, “all else being equal” is a ridiculous standard to use, as Lovergirl and Nicole have proved, and also because you can’t choose between 22-year-old and 40-year-old version of the same woman).

    But to say men are less emotionally attracted to women over 33 is a ridiculous statement. If it is a personal view, again, you do you. You have zero desire for pair bonding or offspring anyways, which make you an anomaly among men.

  182. Yes older women can be attractive ….but there is no need to go over age 32.

    Wow, that’s a bold statement! Nowadays, it’s hard to tell if a woman is 20 or she is 40 years old.  There are so many women who are taking good care of themselves. To say that men shouldn’t be with a woman who is over age 32 is ridiculous. I think most people on this blog, including men, would agree with me.  It sounds like you may have had one bad experience in your past and are now taking it out on women who are in their 30’s. You are definitely missing out! 🙂

     

    women hate being married,

    Another bold statement that in my opinion doesn’t hold true. I am happily married and would do it again. I personally wouldn’t marry if I thought I would be miserable.

     

  183. @BlackDragon @Pink Firefly

    I know you are. Because it’s not TMM

    Hello Pink Firefly! 🙂 I’d venture, Caleb, she’ll be equally as happily married if you stopped fucking other women (barring threesome scenarios). 🙂 But you know each other better than I know you guys. As I know my boyfriend and myself better than you, and the random predictions you give to my relationship (that it will for sure end in divorce, and that I’ll somehow fuck around with other men while making my fiance shut up about it) is inaccurate.

  184.  Nowadays, it’s hard to tell if a woman is 20 or she is 40 years old.

    That’s total nonsense, but to your larger point:

    There are so many women who are taking good care of themselves. To say that men shouldn’t be with a woman who is over age 32 is ridiculous.

    Completely agree.

    I personally wouldn’t marry if I thought I would be miserable.

    Who would?  The problem is getting married and being married are two separate events.

    As I know my boyfriend and myself better than you, and the random predictions you give to my relationship (that it will for sure end in divorce, and that I’ll somehow fuck around with other men while making my fiance shut up about it) is inaccurate.

    Nobody is arguing that you feel that way now.  But the law of big numbers says you’ll likely change your mind sooner or later.  Maybe not.  And if not, you get to look forward to the lives of everyone who I know in a long term modern marriage who is miserable.

     

  185. @Sabrina

    Are you making a point here that *you* have issues being emotionally attracted to older women, or that the majority of men have issues being emotionally attracted to older women?

    I wouldn’t call it issues, it’s just a tendency and something I have wittnessed with all kind of men I know. Generally speaking, I believe hot older women can make any man go crazy, yet hot younger women can break any man.

    But to say men are less emotionally attracted to women over 33 is a ridiculous statement.

    I have never said that, BD has. 33 is not that old anyway but what I am saying is whenever men see pretty 20+ young women looking or smiling at them, it has a huge impact on them. It’s not just about having sex with these girls, it goes much deeper than that. For instance when I see Monica Bellucci now, I magine having tons of fun with her but she doesn’t make me want to hold or kiss her, even though I would, if I had the chance. When I see a curvy young girl on the streets, then these things definitely cross my mind, along with having sex.

  186. @C Lo

    Incorrect. The law of large numbers, so statistics, actually say there’s an overwhelming chance I will have a successful marriage lasting 20+ years as I am a college educated woman getting married for the first time. Also, I have never been “miserable” in my adult life so far and I do not see how marrying a man I love will suddenly lead to misery. For every unhappily (or “miserably”) married couple I know I can list two happily married couples (including many in my own immediately and extended family).

    All your (and Caleb’s) premise of “your marriage will either result in divorce or misery” is not backed by any “facts,” rather it’s backed by your odd determination to bash traditional marriage.

    It’s really confusing in here though – one guy is saying a 26 year old woman is a “child” (whose maturity level is not different from a 15 year old boy), and one guy is saying he is unable to be attracted to any woman who are not in their 20s (but that a hot younger women can “break” any men). It’s fascinating to see how men (even in their 40s/50s) belittle and patronize women, but at the same time is completely powerless against women. I’m real glad I’m a chick.

  187. That’s total nonsense

    Oh really?…..Maybe before putting down somone’s opinion you should back it up with your own opinion or a fact. Stating that someone’s comment is nonsense has no merit unless you state why it is so.

  188. @Berti

    You say you find a tendency in men that age matters in emotional attraction (so basically that many men don’t get emotionally attracted to women over a certain age). To back this up, you say you want to “hold and kiss” a random smiling curvy young girl on the streets, but you feel no desire to do so with an older actress?

    Dude, creepiness aside, you don’t know either women – the curvy younger chick and Monica Bellucci. The only attraction you *can* feel at that point is physical (“holding and kissing” is a physical act). I don’t see how you can feel emotional attraction to someone you have not spoken to. With that ridiculous statement and your admitting you have no desire to pair bond with a woman, I’m concluding you have never romantically loved or been loved by a woman (in any age bracket). It’s just so….sad. Oh well.

  189. Good thread. Al got PF, and other women to participate. Women seem to have fragile egos.

    C Lo is wasting his time though.

    SK asserts that tmm won’t ever change her. But, how does she know until she experiences it? Having kids and living under the same roof with a man while being monogamous for years on end. Lol. She is omnipotent!

    She claims she knows other people that are happy in tmm. They can’t possibly be keeping up appearances can they?

    Well if other people seem happy, then it must be a good idea, right?

    What can possibly go wrong with this logic?

  190. I don’t get why BD would write this whole article if all women over 35 or whatever are so gross. Obviously many men are still attracted to women over that age. Same goes for men- I’ve never found myself particularly attracted to a man over 50 but I’m sure there are some out there and by the time I’m that age myself my perspective will change. Just like in my late teens I thought any guy over 30 was gross and in my 20’s men over 40 were unappealing.

    I know a woman that is in her mid 40’s with a fantastic body. She’s skinny but had boob and butt implants. She’s kind of sexually aggressive and throws herself at men and a lot of them seem to find her very attractive. However, a male friend that is 28 was really turned off when she tried to throw herself at him. That’s totally ok. Everyone has different tastes and to him she was old. What’s offensive is men who are old themselves throwing insults to older women and acting like there is something wrong with them for aging. No one has control over that we just do the best we can with what we have.

  191. Oh really?…..Maybe before putting down somone’s opinion you should back it up with your own opinion or a fact. Stating that someone’s comment is nonsense has no merit unless you state why it is so.

    First off, I’m not putting down your opinion.  I’m disagreeing with one narrow point you made, and that’s claiming it’s hard to tell a woman who is 20 from one who is 40 is hard.

    I contend it’s very easy.  I can usually get within a couple of years by looking at someone’s crows feet, their hands, and their neck.   Oddly, the one who taught me how to do that was my ex wife.

    C Lo is wasting his time though.

    Am I?  I guess that all depends on what you consider my goals to be.

    I’ve had a lot of experience navigating people who have never made a mistake in their lives.  She’s one of those people who have all the answers.  I work hard to identify those sorts of people and minimize their presence in my life.

    The law of large numbers, so statistics, actually say there’s an overwhelming chance I will have a successful marriage lasting 20+ years as I am a college educated woman getting married for the first time.

    Fantastic!  In that case, please cite your work.   If it’s what I think it is, I’ve read it already, and it’s got problems.

    I don’t get why BD would write this whole article if all women over 35 or whatever are so gross.

    This is a horrible story, but I don’t know how to make this point without telling it.

    I was in college, and a bunch of buddies of mine decided that we were gonna tell each other we were going out to this bar to go “hogging” once, with no intention of actually doing it (after five or ten minutes of carrying on, we let the last guy in on the joke).  So while we are waiting for the whole squad to round itself up, we were drinking shots and got kinda hammered and just forgot to tell the last guy about the joke.

    So we go out to this club across from our apartment, and within like ten minutes he is chatting up this really pretty (and really heavy) gal and like twenty minutes later those two all over each other, and then they are GONE and we don’t see him for like two days.

    Turns out he was really into big girls, and was afraid to get with one because of all the static he’d of got from some really shallow people who’s opinions didn’t mean shit in the big swing of things.   By running a sick and kinda mean joke (and not letting him in on it) we empowered the guy that it was okay to go get what he really wanted.

    Who am I to yuck somebody elses yum?  Date whatever you feel like dating.  Fuck everyone else.

     

     

     

  192. Wow, this thread is filled with extremely very bad communicators on both sides. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything like this at my blog before.

    On one side you’ve got guys who are thinking “I think younger women are hotter than older women” but are saying “All older women are completely disgusting,” which, of course, are two radically different things. Then you’ve got reactive women on the other side saying, “What?!? Shock! How dare you?!? That makes no sense!!! Listen, buddy….!”

    Obviously all older women aren’t disgusting (how silly) and you defensive women shouldn’t get your panties in a bunch about two or three guys making crazy statements (again, silly).

  193. @Sabrina

    You say you find a tendency in men that age matters in emotional attraction (so basically that many men don’t get emotionally attracted to women over a certain age). To back this up, you say you want to “hold and kiss” a random smiling curvy young girl on the streets, but you feel no desire to do so with an older actress?

    Yes

    Dude, creepiness aside, you don’t know either women – the curvy younger chick and Monica Bellucci.

    lol So? That’s what all women say “but you don’t know her”. Men don’t really need to know any woman in order for them to be attracted to them. It’s pure instinct and in our DNA to act like that. Just like when women say they don’t go for short or bald guys. Do they know them? No, they don’t care either.

     

    The only attraction you *can* feel at that point is physical (“holding and kissing” is a physical act). I don’t see how you can feel emotional attraction to someone you have not spoken to.

    Oh trust me, I can. I might see the same girl 2 times and already “feel” something warm in my stomach.

     

    With that ridiculous statement and your admitting you have no desire to pair bond with a woman, I’m concluding you have never romantically loved or been loved by a woman (in any age bracket). It’s just so….sad. Oh well.

    Wrong. I have been with many women, mostly for fun though, but just because I don’t want to marry any of them doesn’t mean, I have never been in love. As for being loved by women, who knows? Women proably don’t love the same way men love anyway. Many women would marry any guy who can provide for them, that’s not what I call love.

  194. The two issues that appear to really trigger women these days – especially online  – is:

    1. Male extreme age preference for youth:  (many men and society refuse to openly acknowledge or promote it …as any healthy society should and would but ours does not and everyone perpetuates lies and delusion.)
    2. Men unwillingness/dislike/aversion to single mothers for marrying/serious relationship and raising or assisting with children of said single mothers.

    It appears that much of modern feminism is really ideological weaponizing of the female imperative to maximize the female procreative choice (sex with alphas) and the female preferred economic arrangement ( beta foots the bill for alpha’s child – via direct legal extortion, taxes, “social safety net”, a “responsible man” programming. Alpha fucks Beta bucks.

    While maximizing the female imperative, feminist ideology seeks to minimize and destroy the male imperative: men want to procreate with nubile young women and are only interested in supporting their own progeny and the mothers so far her relative fidelity to him and his paternity certainty are intact.

    Male refusal and distaste at “Alpha Fucks Beta Bucks” and desire to sire and invest in their own progeny with suitably nubile and fertile women is declared to be “oppression” by women. …it is even characterized as being “antiwoman”…”misogyny” etc………

    Of course very few women ever acknowledge the oppression in legally and sociall sanctioned “Alpha fucks Beta bucks”….

    BD’s system is fantastic because it weaponizes the male imperative……deflect and counter attack.

    As such, just about ALL women will have instinctual revulsion at it.

  195. BD, question …………

    do you find that there  are differences in how women accept your paradigms and participate in them with you depending on weather they are single mothers or not ??

  196. Of course very few women ever acknowledge the oppression in legally and sociall sanctioned “Alpha fucks Beta bucks”….

    BD’s system is fantastic because it weaponizes the male imperative……deflect and counter attack.

    I find it humorous when I can tell which users are actively reading Rollo.  Kinda like Rush used to have dittoheads, and you could just smell em a block off.

    Truth be told, I read him for a while, and he’s tapped into something, but you are probably not aware of what it is.  Anger blinds people that way.  Reading Rollo won’t get you laid, and it won’t get you paid, but it will distract yourself from why your life is a mess and your fault, while finding someone else to scapegoat for your situation.

    I think BD’s strength is it drops the anger phase buffer and not speciously explain why , and gives users tools to actively improve their lives.  Switching from the societal programming of being a domesticated, emasculated, and betaized provider to one where you are an angry Alpha 1.0 who now understands that “alpha fucks/beta bucks” isn’t a virtue.  Frankly, it’s a waste of a perfectly decent life.

    FWIW, I never dated a woman with children until I got divorced in my mid 40s.  I tried it because I thought I should stop limiting the dating pool.  Turns out, it’s not my jam, but considering that I never wanted my own kids and never fabricated any, it’s not surprising.  I don’t like cats and I don’t own one of them either.  Then again, I’ve never had a problem articulating what I wanted and didn’t want and never apologized for it either.

    You know who I think is a great potential partner for single moms?  Someone who likes kids who aren’t necessarily their own.  You know who is a great potential date for older women?   Me, so long as they never had kids.

  197. @C Lo

    She’s one of the people who have all the answers.

    If this is a veiled criticism of me, I can tell you I don’t have all the answers and I never contended I have all the answers – I’m fully aware of my fallibility as a human being. I am not the one financially profiting from a lifestyle blog, Caleb is. I have made many mistakes in my adult life, just not ones that set me back too much. I take sufficient risks, but cover my ass.

    With that said, I do know myself on a fundamental level and as I cement my values in my limited adult life, I know what makes me (and women who share my characteristics) happy and feel fulfilled. For example, I always wanted to be self sufficient and financially successful. I may make mistakes in my way to achieve that goal (fortunately haven’t made many), but I can tell you by 40 I’d still have that value in my value system. Same with my desire for offspring and pair bonding with a single man for at least two decades (and hopefully forever). As a 26 year old woman, getting married is precisely the best way to achieve that goal (a value I know won’t change in a decade or so) – and this choice is not an immoral, “coersion-based” one as many of you contend.

    @Al

    All women will have instinctual revulsion to it

    Your really pessimistic and angry view on women aside (if you hate women so much you’ll never be happy in your woman life – I can’t say for all women, but I clarified above I personally don’t, have never done, and will literally never do the ‘Alpha fucks beta bucks’ strategy), you’re correct Caleb’s OLTR marriage structure is not optimal for women (especially those who want children). That’s why I’m saying it’s unfeasible for women in their RMV peak and want children to go along with it.

  198. @BD: Your 9:53 pm comment is for the “Starting over” post.

    Thanks. I put in a 12 hour day yesterday and was tired.

    do you find that there are differences in how women accept your paradigms and participate in them with you depending on weather they are single mothers or not ??

    Absolutely no difference whatsoever, and that’s empirical because I’ve tracked it.

  199. If this is a veiled criticism of me, I can tell you I don’t have all the answers and I never contended I have all the answers – I’m fully aware of my fallibility as a human being.

    There’s nothing veiled about it.  Also, your second sentence isn’t congruent with your other writings, but it’s okay because, well, BD already wrote about it.

    https://blackdragonblog.com/2013/02/21/how-societal-programming-makes-women-lie-to-themselves/

    And while we are working on clarifying positions:

    All your (and Caleb’s) premise of “your marriage will either result in divorce or misery” is not backed by any “facts,” rather it’s backed by your odd determination to bash traditional marriage.

    Lets get one thing straight – I’m against all forms of marriage.  It took a nasty divorce and a lot of soul searching after twenty years of happy TMM to change realize that the truth was right in front of me my whole life but I was too stupid to realize I was the dumb one. Societal programming is super powerful, and pernicious.

    Honestly, I felt this moral superiority to all my friends and acquaintances that had “failed” marriages because I thought they were doing things wrong, and because I (nor my ex) had never been married, both had college degrees (masters degrees, to boot), never lived together before getting married, dated for three years before getting married, may parents were (and are) still married,  and had done all the other “right things” we were set.  What cinched my wrongheaded thinking was studies like the ones you are probably reading.  I was also 26.

    Anyway, I actually hope that I’m wrong about it all.  And I hope you two live a wonderful and happy life.  But if you aren’t self aware enough to realize this statement is utter bullshit:

    Also, I have never been “miserable” in my adult life so far and I do not see how marrying a man I love will suddenly lead to misery.

    I have to think that you are either 1) not self aware to the point of being delusional  or 2) a guy.  Why would I write that?

    https://blackdragonblog.com/2016/11/24/one-reasons-women-dont-want-happy/

    Caleb’s experience squares nicely with my five decades dealing with people.

     

     

  200. I missed this one:

    Same with my desire for offspring and pair bonding with a single man for at least two decades

    Hey look at that! Sabrina is already hedging her bets.  Even she knows TMM is bullshit.

  201. @C Lo

    Your second sentence isn’t congruent with your other writings

    Point me to a comment where I ever said I have the answers to everything. I have consistently made a case that OLTR marriage is non optimal for women, specifically for women like me who want children, reasonably attractive and of high IQ, who is of age 25-33. I stand by it. Even if my marriage ends in divorce, it’s still a more optimal decision than going into an OLTR live in marriage with a “Alpha 2.0” many years my senior. I also think the fantasy open marriage Caleb outlines with fictional Emilia Clarke is unfeasible, because many women will agree with me.

    If you tell me I’m arrogant, I totally am. Especially on internet where I’m more or less anonymous. But don’t criticize me for things I never said.

    I have to think […] you’re delusional or a guy.

    Why? Because I said I have never been miserable last 6 years? I’ve just had a good life, and I have a low neurotic personality (especially for a woman). You think because I am a woman I want to be miserable?

  202. Wow

    this post has really strayed over into nonsenseville

    even if you think today Christie Brinkley is hot

    she still has to have hot piv sex in a 65 year old body!

    is that happening ? We do not know !

    the closest one to even mention something about older women is BD saying he has had sex with a few women in their 50s

    pre or postmenopause? Subject maybe was never mentioned

    today women in their mid 40s are showing up in their doctors office complaining of dryness and pain during or after sex and sometimes the only answer the doctor has is

    we did not study this in med school

    this does not even mention some women who at a late age wake up and realize that societal programming has not helped them

    many of the guys posting here say they have an aversion to older women

    the women posting here talk about their untested theory of perfect realtionship for female benefit with no input from the male partner side

    maybe not workable for more than a week?

    well carryon!

     

    Somebody want to post a book reference or survey link?

     

  203. Do women in their 40’s really experience vaginal dryness? I thought that was something that happened after menopause.  As a still fertile early 40-something, that definitely hasn’t happened yet.

  204. @lovergirl

    absolutely

    i mention this because some woman I know who makes her living as a sex educator  and is in her mid forties ,has recently blogged about having multiple partners and in a follow up blog mentioned that she is occasionally experiencing dryness and pain with intercourse …she called the info line of her health insurance provider and their answer was …

    coconut oil!

     

  205. This whole discussion is pretty funny but mostly meaningless. Using examples of this and that is useless because guys have widely varying preferences and opportunities.

    My mate and I used to have drinks every Friday and perv at girls. The girls I like he thinks are too skinny. The girls he likes are a bit big for me and not what I really like. I’ve seen young guys with hot wives spend 100’s of dollars on fat ugly strippers that I wouldn’t let touch me even if they paid me when there are heaps of hot young strippers around that would cost the exact same amount.

    Alpha guys who are willing to work on their game will have SO much more potential variety than Alpha or Beta guys who don’t. So lots of lazy hot guys are going hook up with avg older women. Doesn’t mean you have to as a guy if you are willing to work at it.

    I think the whole point of this post though is that some guys who are willing to work on their game and have options get hung up about excluding older women from potential FB‘s when they shouldn’t. Most guys regardless of looks or game are not going to have an unlimited supply of hot young girls (unless they are rich, famous or really really good at game). If you do, more power to you. But its just not the reality for most guys. Even decent players, especially as they get older. So its crazy to exclude hot older women. They can definitely be just as hot and fun. It’s limiting opportunity for no good reason.

    Personally I really enjoy older women as FB‘s. I have two at the moment in their 40’s. One is married and her hubby doesn’t know she is fucking me. The other has a serious BF and he also doesn’t know she is fucking me. Both guys think they are monogamous. haha 🙂 But I don’t think I would ever settle down with one as an OLTR. At 51 I’m happy to have my 23 yo OLTR. But if we broke up and I couldn’t replace her I’d probably just settle for MLTR‘s if they were older. Just my preference. But who knows. If I had MLTR‘s for many years I might start to want an OLTR instead and be happy to have an older one.

    I personally know a few ladies in their early 40’s who are hitting menopause. My ex-wife was one of them. Thanks god I dodged that bullet! 🙂

     

  206. Using examples of this and that is useless because guys have widely varying preferences

    Exactly. It’s like the 1 to 10 hotness scale; it’s so subjective in most cases, so stating absolutes is silly, in addition to the fact that some over-30 and over-40 women really are hot, and many younger women are disgusting.

  207. today women in their mid 40s are showing up in their doctors office complaining of dryness and pain during or after sex

    I was laughing when I read this! Just because you know one woman who has vaginal dryness doesn’t mean all women in their 40’s have dryness.

    This whole discussion is pretty funny but mostly meaningless.

    It’s probably not a good idea to put people’s opinions down and call it “meaningless.” People on this blog discuss personal experiences, so to state that it’s meaningless is just not helpful.

    A few guys on this post really got worked up over a couple of the women who wrote based on their experiences. Maybe you guys should calm down a little, just because you don’t agree with them doesn’t mean you need to get so agitated!

  208. It’s probably not a good idea to put people’s opinions down and call it “meaningless.” People on this blog discuss personal experiences, so to state that it’s meaningless is just not helpful.

    I’m not putting peoples opinions down. The second sentence about “examples” that you left out is key to my point. Both sides are getting worked up and agitated and trying to prove their point by citing examples of how either they or someone they know someone did x so therefore that means everyone is like that. I’m saying its meaningless to quote those sort of examples to prove a point as it doesn’t account for wildly varying preferences and also people’s ability to get what they might want and therefore settle for less by default. There seems to be a lot more of that in this thread than I’ve ever seen before.

  209. I personally know a few ladies in their early 40’s who are hitting menopause. My ex-wife was one of them.

    Yep.  It’s a real downside of dating women in their 40s.  Kind of like reverse puberty, but it has the added pluses of not knowing when it was gonna strike, and extra moodiness.

    My experience is dryness is an issue with many 40ish women, bordering on standard.  Most of them were aware and prepared.

    No amount of foreplay helps, their bodies just don’t work like they used to.  But it’s not insurmountable.

  210. My experience is dryness is an issue with many 40ish women, bordering on standard.

    My experience is the opposite. I’ve fucked a lot of ladies in their 40’s through our swinging scene and FB‘s I’ve met, but there have never been any issues. Quite the opposite. They are fun, horny and a lot more sexually aggressive than younger girls, which I actually really enjoy. I’ve mainly just heard about early menopause issues with my ex and quite a few others. And the main thing is not about dryness. It’s about crazy moods and them almost losing their minds.

  211. Yeah, well, I’m gonna guess it’s like a 40% for me, but I’m not in that scene and that might make a difference.  My sample size is <ten so it might just be bad luck or not enough data.  Certainly all women aren’t like that, and some of the ones I’ve been out with weren’t like that constantly.

    I concur on the rest of it.  Especially the crazy mood swings, but IMO it also drives the crazy sex drive.  It’s like their bodies are telling them it’s their last chance to have a baby and they can’t do anything about it UNLESS you trigger their ASD.

  212. I’m saying its meaningless to quote those sort of examples to prove a point as it doesn’t account for wildly varying preferences and also people’s ability to get what they might want and therefore settle for less by default. There seems to be a lot more of that in this thread than I’ve ever seen before.

    This.

  213. “If the women you are sleeping with are usually dry, you might be doing something wrong. Lol- just sayin”

    please stop.

    that’s like telling a woman who mentions that the older men she sleeps with have less firm erections, lower ejaculate volume, and longer refractory periods that “she must be doing something wrong”.

     

     

  214. If the women you are sleeping with are usually dry, you might be doing something wrong.

    I’m going to have to agree with Lovergirl on this one. The age of a woman has nothing to do with being “dry,” especially a woman in her 40’s. I think it may have to do with how turned on the woman you are with is for you.

  215. When I read comments about women by other women like this:

    Just because you know one woman who has vaginal dryness doesn’t mean all women in their 40’s have dryness.

    And:

    If the women you are sleeping with are usually dry, you might be doing something wrong. Lol- just sayin…

    After having the gall to write:

    Do women in their 40’s really experience vaginal dryness? I thought that was something that happened after menopause.  As a still fertile early 40-something, that definitely hasn’t happened yet.

    Topped by:

    I’m going to have to agree with Lovergirl on this one.

    I want to ask you two ladies when the last time you started dating a woman who was 45-50 years old?  How many have you dated?  If you ever had any trouble, was it with just older chicks or did it happen with younger ones too?

    We already know the answer which is no, none, and I can’t answer that because I have no experience to extend to the subject, so let me spout baseless opinions!

    It never ceases to amaze me when the least empathetic people to women specific problems are always other women, and the buffer that they can come up with because since it’s not happening to them yet it’s not going to, or it won’t be a big deal.

    So enjoy menopause girls!  It’s coming for you sooner than you imagine, protestations to the contrary.

     

  216. https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2018-06/tnam-wia061918.php

    From the article (paragraphs two and three, emphasis mine):

    Many women experience vaginal dryness during menopause, which often manifests as burning, itching, or lack of lubrication during sexual activity, and they have a lot of company. Data from the Study of Women Across the Nation (SWAN) tracked more than 2,400 women over a 17-year-period showed that, at baseline, 19.4% of women (aged 42-53 y) reported vaginal dryness. By the time the women in the study were aged 57 to 69 years, 34% of them complained of symptoms.

    More surprising, however, is the fact that more than 50% of women don’t report vaginal dryness to their healthcare providers, and less than 4% of affected women are actively using any of the many proven therapies that include vaginal estrogen tablets, creams, and rings, according to “Factors associated with developing vaginal dryness symptoms in women transitioning through menopause: a longitudinal study,” the Menopause article detailing the study results.

    What did I state earlier?

    I’m gonna guess it’s like a 40% for me

    But yeah, I’m sure it’s because I’m a shitty lover who somehow never had this problem before he started sleeping with women his own age who happened to be his own age after he hit 45.

    It’s all me.  Clearly.

  217. I want to ask you two ladies when the last time you started dating a woman who was 45-50 years old? How many have you dated? If you ever had any trouble, was it with just older chicks or did it happen with younger ones too?

    We already know the answer which is no, none

    Nice assumption lol.  I actually have slept with 40 year old women and it was awesome! They never had the dryness that you keep referring to at all. The women I have been with in their 40’s were very turned on and dryness was definitely not a factor.  Many guys in this thread, including Blackdragon, have said they have and still do have sex with women in their 40’s and they have never had a problem. Clearly it is you that is having the problem.

    So enjoy menopause girls! It’s coming for you sooner than you imagine,

    I had to laugh at that statement! I’m in my 30’s, so I have at least ten years before I have to worry about that. When that day comes though, I’ll be thankful that, unlike you, I won’t have to deal with erectile dysfunction during my old age. Have fun sticking a needle in your dick so you can have sex with a 20 year old that you have to pay to sleep with you.

    But yeah, I’m sure it’s because I’m a shitty lover

    Correct!

    It’s all me. Clearly.

    You are correct again!

  218. Everyone gets older and there is always the potential for some kind is sexual issues I suppose. It’s not much different for men than women. Men maybe get érectile dysfunction on average a little later than women reach menopause but not a lot later. In any case I would rather have something that can be cured with a tube of lube than something that needs medication to work.

    I know women who have had hysterectomies in their early 30’s and that puts you in early menopause but they are still enjoying sex. I’ve seen tons of over 40 and over 50 and even older women enjoying sex at swinger parties. I wouldn’t think they would want to do that if they were in pain and miserable from dry vaginas. I couldn’t tell you the exact age of the women I have personally been with but none of them seemed to have a problem getting wet.

  219. I’ve seen tons of over 40 and over 50 and even older women enjoying sex at swinger parties.

    What I’m seeing is an epidemic of these sorts of women at swingers parties squirting all over the place. haha 🙂 Not sure if that counts for wetness but it sure makes a mess! 😀 😀

  220. Cut it out please.

    @Al

    Cut what out? If you don’t like the discussion just move along mate! Go read something else. Don’t tell other people what they can and can’t comment on! I know this is probably hard for you to understand but this thread and discussion is not just aimed at or about you.

  221. In Dec 2016 (“The Details about my girlfriend”) BD said PF was 37. So unless there was a mistake there she’d be at least 39 1/2 now; it’s ever so slightly optimistic to say she’s “in her thirties” :p

    Anyway, Marty aside, no one is really being rational here – sour grapes and strawmanning, ew – , especially Al. Really, multiple one-word comments? Don’t you have something better to do with your time than engage in “No u” exchanges?

  222. BD said PF was 37. So unless there was a mistake there she’d be at least 39 1/2 now; it’s ever so slightly optimistic to say she’s “in her thirties

    Really, that’s your comment? You are correct, I am 39 and still far from menopause and still far from what was said about a dry vagina, which was the whole point of stating my age in the first place. I’m not sure what your point is.

    Hahahah.

    And another useless comment. Way to fire back. LOL.

  223. Jesus. If you guys have never met a hot 39 year old, you need to get out of the house more.

  224. Hot 59 y.o.?

    Warren Beatty82,his  Ex Madonna 60

    Kris Jenner 63 Corey 35

    Madonna 60 wants to date Drake 33

    Diane Keaton 71 wants to date Justin Bieber 24

    Tori Amos 53 voted last month worlds sexiest singer

     

  225. According to obstetricians and gynecologists an age 35+ pregnancy is considered: Geriatric.

    ger·i·at·ric

    /ˌjerēˈatrik/

    adjective

    1.

    relating to old people.

    noun

    1.

    an old person.

  226. that surely escalated. cmon technology, lets cure aging lol. im down.

     

    is that the record for the most comments here at the blog? Its very valuable to watch BD debate/stick to his principles. I just wanted to observe the arguments for tmm and monogamy to see where my mind may be weak in the way that before I may of (lilely for emotional/biological/6sv/SP reasons) signed up for unnecessary pain and ultimately multi-year life ruining self esteem issues of accepting on a subconcious level that I (eventually) didn’t deserve to have sex multiple times a week anymore, and that for having sexual desires and ambition that I am born with are bad, and just overall not good enough. It seems even if its not on a concious level by the girl, this is what happens in tmm and Monogamy and years go down the drain for me in my prime and very likely I can’t even comprehend how much I underestimate my potential. And its such a mother fucker once its over you can’t get that time back and society and the girl (now in a new place and opinion than in the beginning) says, “it just kinda happened sorry,” and says thats just how it goes…and no matter how enticing or anybody tries to swear “this time will be different,” its not. Either way the guy is agreeing to the logical impossible of being monogamous to one person for the rest of their life and eventually agree to being made to believe he’s not good enough on that subconcious level that isnt healthy.

    I guess bottom line whats important is just having deep principles (the code) and sticking to it.

  227. “issues of accepting on a subconcious level that I (eventually) didn’t deserve to have sex multiple times a week anymore, ”

     

    Yes, in TMM it has been shown through various studies that the female sex drive declines after the honeymoon period is over while the man’s does not. The female tries to neuter the male by rationing sex…………many men become trapped in essentially a sexless marriage (keep the peace sex only).

    And, yes it affects the self esteem and causes many men to believe that they dont deserve to have more sex and feel guilty about wanting it.  Talk to 95% of TMM men and you will that this is the case.

    TMM is where the male sex life goes to die and women know it. Hence, why the cut off all the husband’s single friends after marriage via subterfuge, gossip, psychological ploys, etc…..”i don’t like that guy Jim….” They try to socially isolate the man from his non-gelded buddies and seek to dominate his time and mind via:

    “…the kids”: ballet, soccer, piano lessons, karate………..

    bills…..and creating more where few exist: new cars, new house, new furniture, endless remodels, etc…..

    needless drama/nagging to keep the man’s mind distracted ….etc

    bad food…..to get the man fat (dad bod)  and therefore less attractive to other females…….

    all ploys to domesticate the man for a life of beta bucks ………..and once she succeeds, the wife then declares how “bored” she is and starts looking at the personal trainer, pool guy, milk man, plumber, etc……

  228. thanks for commenting al. Ive read this blog for a few years now trying to soak in and gain some perspective on actual real life dating and being actually able to articulate it in my own words and having a place to do so with minimal judgement or counter debate means a lot…and then be able to understand on a deep level nuts and bolts when the chips are down and whoever it is at large says I’m evil or wants to judge. it kinda came to me in the car all of a suddenly and your reply means a lot.

  229. Yeah, BD,s theory is mostly true. It hurts to accept tho……and trying to build ur life on it is tough…..Social Programming and the need to fit in being what it is.

  230. cmon technology, lets cure aging lol. im down.

    The earlier cures will probably mostly reverse/delay senescence, ie it might keep you physiologically under 80 or under 60 for longer, or reverse you to that state, but not much better. Aging tech that can keep people biologically under 35 indefinitely is probably a very long time away; I don’t believe the overexcited singularitarians. It’d surely be good to live to get this though.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if men would tend to converge on choosing a permanent physical age somewhere between 28-40, and women somewhere between 18-28.

  231. Aging tech that can keep people biologically under 35 indefinitely is probably a very long time away; I don’t believe the overexcited singularitarians.

    The only principle of mine that this aligns with is taking as good of care of myself as humanly possible with solid fundamentals.

    The other aspect is simply not useful thinking to me. Even if that means I have to go to war and contribute to the cause myself. If you have any metrics for what you mean by “a very long time” and why you “believe” certain things, feel free to cite and source.

    I’m 27 for some context.

  232. I was laughing when I read this! Just because you know one woman who has vaginal dryness doesn’t mean all women in their 40’s have dryness.

    I’ve fucked a lot women between 18 and 48 and I have never had one woman over 40 be dry.  Had some women in their 20’s and 30’s who were.  Mainly because I was inexperienced and didn’t know how to turn a woman on or they where drunk or high (weed dries a woman out).  Most likely when a man has sex for the first time the woman is going to be dry.  Which is why many women do not enjoy their first experience.   Or one of many reasons why rape can be so painful.  The woman is not turned on or may not be wet.  I mean this is so obvious and the fact I have to spell this out to woman is kind of ridiculous.  You women should be able to recognize that these posters don’t know a woman’s pussy from a hole in their pillow and not take them seriously enought to respond.   This has basically been 100 comments of arguments between women and 2-3 virgins (probably just one with multiple names).

  233. @CSR

    And, what you said about maturity, unless she’s an astronomical exception to the rule, chances are she will be the same at 26 than at 36, except 10 more years of relationship failures and worse character. Women are not men. Men tend to evolve to the better, women not so much.

    Actually, most men have a very hard time with self-consciousness and maturity too. But at least among the men there are the exceptions 😁

  234. @CSR

     

    See how easy it is to translate what a woman means when you know how they reallywork?See how easy it is to translate what a woman means when you know how they reallywork?

    How things would improve, if more men had your understanding of the “whole issue”.

  235. @SabrinaK

     

    And of course, personal insults start coming, this is when I know you are grasping at straws.

    His “personal insults” consisted by mirroring back to you the name calling that you had started.
    Why had you? You already showed you know why people start name-calling, no need to explain.

    **

    I also know you were in good faith all through it — starting to call people names, not knowing it, perceiving it as a non-motivated offense when some of the name calling comes back to you, and criticizing whom you debate with for doing things you are doing two or three times more in the same debate.

     

    Same as for the “women won’t take unfair deals”.
    Women will take only unfair deals — the cause of their post-Wall distress is  that after 28-33 the deals available to them start smelling of fairness.

     

    All of it is absolutely a gender standard.

     

     

     

  236. @John

    Many comments made my men here against older women were not in good taste, and it was even more ridiculous as it was from men who also were above the age of 40. C Lo’s comment to Pink Firefly and one other female commenter of “Enjoy menopause girls!” is straight up mean – shaming a woman for aging, especially to women who are actively trying to stay physically and mentally youthful, is absolutely unnecessary. I do not think female commenters here were overreacting at all.

    Believe me, if I started ranting about how “gross” 50-year-old men’s skin are and how they smell “sour”, etc. the outrage from men here would have been much, much worse.

    @Jjj

    Actually, thanks for pointing that out. I take that particular comment back. I misread and thought CSR was calling me 15 years past “my prime” (which made absolutely no sense as I am 26), but now realize he was calling self-vicitimization of women was “15 years too late” (also a weird comment, but a lot of his comments were). Of course, rest of my comments and points against him still stands. CSR was arguing that “slut shaming was mainly women’s business” and then turned around and said women were wrong for “riding the cock carousel”.

    I also know you were in good faith all through it — starting to call people names, not knowing it, perceiving it as a non-motivated offense when some of the name calling comes back to you, and criticizing whom you debate with for doing things you are doing two or three times more in the same debate.

    If you want to criticize me for “name calling” and “criticizing whom you debate with for doing things you are doing two or three times more in the same debate”, please cite exactly what comment you were referring to. I have never personally insulted or “name-called” anyone in this blog – although it looks like I have struck enough nerves already without doing so. 🙂

    Again, if you want to criticize me, back it up with proof instead of asserting these blanket statements.

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