A commenter, Johnson, recently posted this comment below. It’s extremely important since I’ve heard a lot of other men echo his words and feelings:

I follow every point of your Alpha 2.0 system. I have lots of FB‘s and MLTR‘s, and I’ve had many OLTR candidates in the past. I know how to make sure of that if I ever get into an OLTR relationship I can never get hurt legally or financially.

The thing is I’m sorta in fear of getting emotionally hurt. Fear of getting relationship ruined after investing quite a lot in a woman.  Look I won’t mince words here, women are women. I know someday she’ll cheat on me by falling in love with another man. It’s just that what’s the point of investing in a relationship then? But if I won’t do it, I feel empty inside. I’m serious. The FB‘s and MLTR‘s model give me a lot of power in my life, but I feel empty.

There’s a lot to unpack here, a lot of feelings that are both valid and unfounded. I know from hearing from thousands of men over the past many years that many of you feel the same (or similar) as Johnson. You feel trapped, in that you don’t want to spend the rest of your life having sex with FBs and MLTRs and want something more, but at the same time, you are rational enough to know and admit that the likelihood of such a relationship (or marriage) ending at some point is very high. Which is objectively true.

I’m usually good at giving absolute and definitive answers to concerns regarding my relationship models. Because we’re dealing with feelings and fears today, this is one of those unusual times where I can’t quite do this. All I can do in this scenario is to lay out the facts, then tell you how I have dealt with this issue myself because many years ago I had to wrestle with the same thoughts.

But I’m not you. We may have similar personalities, which means how I’ve handled this will resonate with you. Or we may have very different personalities, which means the way I’ve dealt with this emotionally may help you a little, or not at all.

Regardless, this is a critical issue for men over the age of 35 in the modern era, so I will do my honest best to help.

Your Age Matters

Let’s start there before I really get into this: age 35. As I’ve said before, if you are under the age of 35, the thought of settling down with a woman may completely turn you off, and that’s good. I’ve said hundreds of times that no man should even have a girlfriend (monogamous or OLTR doesn’t matter) until he is at least 30 years old, shouldn’t even think about settling down with a woman (i.e. moving in with a woman) until he is at least 35, and shouldn’t have kids (and only if he really wants kids) until all or most of his big goals and dreams in life are already accomplished, which for most men means around age 40 or so.

So if you’re under the age of 35 or so and are worried about this, please don’t fret about this much. You’re too young to be worrying about this yet. Focus on your work, your Mission, self-improvement, and having sex with fun FBs and MLTRs for now. Focus on being a better man so that when the day comes when you do want to settle down, you’ll increase the odds of it actually working because of the smarter, happier, more skilled, more confident, more outcome independent, and more abundant man you’ll be at that time.

OLTR Marriage

Now for you guys who are age 35 or over (or rapidly approaching that age)…

Yes. You’re right. Women leave men. That is what they are hard-wired to do at a deep biological level for over 100,000 years. This doesn’t make women evil, or cunts, or bitches, or sluts, or whatever else a lot of red pill men like to think. No, it makes women normal. Just like you wanting to follow your biology and have sex with multiple women doesn’t make you an asshole or immature, her biological desire to eventually get bored or frustrated with a man she lives with doesn’t make her an evil bitch. It just makes us human.

So yes, if you marry her or move in with her under a monogamous or OLTR model, the odds are very high she’ll eventually leave you at some point down the road. I happen to think that in a properly managed OLTR marriage to a skilled, decently high SMV Alpha Male 2.0, the odds of her leaving are much lower than with traditional monogamous marriage, but I can’t back this up with any hard statistics since society isn’t yet brave enough to scientifically study these kinds of marriages. (It will soon as monogamy continues to become less viable, just not yet.)

Also, as an Alpha 2.0, you know that if you get “divorced” in an OLTR marriage, you suffer zero financial damage (because she can’t touch your money even if she wants to, and she gets zero alimony) and you suffer zero sexual damage (since you just continue to have sex with your FBs like nothing happened).

It’s the emotional damage we’re discussing today, but just remember that as an Alpha Male 2.0 with an OLTR marriage, you are light-years ahead of all the morons who are marrying women legally, with no enforceable prenuptial agreements, no separation of finances, and a full expectation of 100% sexual monogamy from both partners forever. (Jesus.) These men are absolutely fucked, regardless of ex-Alpha or ex-PUA status. So just be glad you aren’t one of those idiots.

As most of you know, I have already volunteered myself as a guinea pig for OLTR marriage, having been married to Pink Firefly under an OLTR marriage for about a year and a half now. Since I know that women are biologically designed to leave men eventually, I set my goals for this marriage accordingly. I described these goals for this relationship in great detail here. I strongly suggest you read that article because it relates directly to this topic.

Before I get into more detail about what I’m doing now regarding these mindsets, I should cover what I originally did with this back in the day.

Redefining Success

After my beta male divorce so many years ago, I went through the same thought process many of you did. As a man over age 35, I wanted to eventually be with a woman in some kind of long-term, live-in relationship or marriage (only after taking a few years and having tons of sex with hot younger women, of course, which I did; it was a phase I needed to go through).

But I also knew that women don’t work that way. That women are biologically designed to eventually get bored with you (if you’re a beta) or get frustrated with you (if you’re an Alpha). If we lived in an oppressive, unfree, religious society, like America of the 1950s or Saudi Arabia of today, women would be prevented from doing this. But since we live in the left-wing, collapsing Western world today, women can and do take advantage of this in great numbers.

The delusional right-wingers want to go back to that kind of oppressive society, but, back when I was mentally examining these thoughts around 2009, I knew that because of George W. Bush (and now Donald Trump) the right had gone just as insane as the left had always been. This fantasy patriarchy of the right-wing is never going to return to the West in any meaningful way culturally or economically, as I’ve described at my blogs many times. (Just wait and see what happens to all of these irrational Trump supporters when a socialist becomes president of the USA in the next few years. I thought America was going to be “great again?”)

Since the outside world wasn’t going to help me (and this is usually the case, so get used to it), this meant that I had to re-orienting my thinking, or least redefining what “success” with women in the long-term meant to me.

I knew that freedom was, and always will be, my number one goal in life. More than love, more than ego, more than social acceptance, more even than money, I wanted freedom. Love and money and all that stuff was (and still is) very important as well, but freedom was number one for me. It had to be. True masculine happiness is impossible without it.

Therefore, I asked myself this question: If, for the rest of my life, I never had a relationship with a woman that lasted longer than three years, could I handle that?

Not, was that ideal? Not even was it probable? Just, could I handle that? In other words, could I still be happy long-term in my life if I knew I could never have a consistent, romantic relationship with a woman that lasted longer than three years?

I didn’t have an immediate answer. I had to think on it for a few days. Then one day, my mind came up with the response: yes. Yes, I could still be happy if I never had a relationship with a woman that lasted longer than three years. Again, it wouldn’t be optimal, but I would still be happy. I still wanted a relationship that lasted much longer than three years, but I knew that if I never had that, I’d still be okay.

And I was right; more right than I realized.

After making that self-realization, I indeed had several relationships with several women that lasted much longer than three years! I’m talking about a real consistent relationship that was well past three years with no LSNFTEs or breaks. So my entire self-imposed limit of “three years” turned out to be completely false!

I started thinking, “Well, shit, if I can make something last four or five or six years, I should be able to do something that lasts at least 10 years, considering all of this relationship knowledge and experience I now have.”

10 years still wasn’t forever. I still had not been snagged by a bunch of right-wing Christian Guy-Disney bullshit about marrying a virgin or whatetever. But 10 years was still a very long time, and it was very achievable.

Then several years later, I met Pink Firefly. She was an FB for about a year, then we didn’t see each other for a year, then we resumed as MLTRs, then our feelings for each other blossomed in a big way, she checked all the boxes I had for a wife (what few there were), so I had the OLTR Talk with her. She actually survived it, and I made the upgrade to OLTR complete, with the goal of getting an OLTR marriage. And today, here we are.

How I Handle This Now

So now I need to circle this all the way back to today.

One of the things I said in this article about my objectives with my OLTR marriage to PF is that if I remained married (meaning living together in the same home and still happy with each other) for 10 years, I will consider that a smashing success even if we got divorced the very next year. I also said that if we got divorced between 4-10 years, it would be a moderate success and if we got divorced in under 4 years, it would be a complete failure.

Therefore, my goal is to get PF and I to that magical four-year mark where we are not only still living together but also still very happy with each other. Once we hit that benchmark, I can take a little sigh of relief knowing we’ve gotten out of that “failure zone.” We’re at 1.5 years right now and still doing very well, with just 2.5 to go, so I think our odds of hitting 4 years happy is very good (easily over 80%).

Once that’s done, my goal will be to get another six years of happy marriage to reach that magical ten-year mark. If we get there, I will be ultra-happy and having a non-monogamous, happy marriage reach ten years in today’s era will be one of the greatest accomplishments of my entire life (and Pink Firefly’s too!).

Will we make it to ten years? I don’t know; you’ll just have to keep reading this blog and see. But we’re both capable people, we’re both committed to this goal, and most importantly, we are actually utilizing a model that actually can work instead of the you’d-better-not-ever-touch-anyone-else-for-the-rest-of-your-fucking-life-or-else-we’re-done! model that we know for a fact can’t work for the vast majority of healthy human beings in the modern, Western world regardless of how smart or experienced or Alpha or Christian they are.

Abundance Mentality

Lastly, we come to abundance mentality, a core concept of long-term happiness. The opposite of oneitis is to always know, in your core, that if the current woman doesn’t work out, there are several hundred women just as hot, smart, fun, sexual, and engaging as her right around the (metaphorical) corner who would be happy to be with you.

If PF and I parted ways, would I be sad? Sure, for a little while. I love her very much, and it would indeed be a loss I would feel.

Would I be depressed? Would I be miserable? Would look back on our time together as “wasted?” Would view our marriage as some kind of “investment” where I “lost?”

If we make it to at least four years (just 2.5 more), nope. Not in the least. I would feel sad for a little bit, then I would redeploy all those hours per week I was spending with her and put them into my Mission while still having sex with my FBs, then over time, get an MLTR or two, then several years later, perhaps upgrade one of them to OLTR, and try again some time in my 50s. Remember, if an OLTR fails there is zero financial or sexual damage unlike with traditional monogamous marriage, so failure in an OLTR is light-years away from typical dumbasses who go through traditional divorces and custody battles.

So that’s why I don’t really have this fear of emotional loss…

1. I don’t expect Disney and understand how humans operate in the real world.

2. I know I’ll be truly happy with or without a long-term, serious relationship with a woman.

3. I only utilize systems that won’t damage my life if there is a breakup or divorce. (OLTR rather than traditional monogamous marriage.)

4. I do my absolute best to stay with the person I’m with, put in that time, and work with her collaboratively so we’re both putting in the effort.

5. I have massive abundance mentality about other women and other opportunities in my life if it doesn’t work out.

Again, that’s me, you may be different. Perhaps nothing I’ve said has helped and you’re still terrified. But I have a feeling I’ve helped at least a little.

129 Comments on “How To Commit When She Might Leave?

  1. So you wont think that why the fuck did I love this woman so much if it was gonna end anyway ? Won’t you feel hesitant next time for an oltr?
    Do you never have nihilistic thoughts like why I’m putting do much efforts in relationship if it’s gonna end anyway.

  2. In reply to commenter Johnson,

    When we talk about Alpha 2.0 we are talking about both confidence and Outcome Independence. Being afraid of getting into ‘serious’ relationships is a bondage issue rooted in insecurity and probably some past trauma. You can’t claim to be simultaneously alpha 2.0 while also being afraid of getting hurt emotionally.

    Also, not all women cheat or fall in love with another dude some day… If you marry a chick at 18 then yes, that’s likely to happen. But just as BD says when you’re cultivating an Alpha 2.0 lifestyle are confident, have your shit together etc women won’t just ditch you. Sure it can happen, it can happen to anyone, but we still have some tools to our disposal to minimize those odds and keep the ladies around as long as possible, perhaps even permanently.

    Also, with regards to Johnson, the alpha 2.0 lifestyle isn’t meant for everyone. It sounds like at the moment the FB/MLTR model isn’t what he needs… He’s feeling empty because he (probably) hasn’t explored yet what happens in a ‘committed’ relationship and thinks he’s missing something. Although he’s afraid of getting hurt by the same thing… Btw, being afraid of something is never a good reason to not do it.

    Regardless, try the OLTR thing sometime or even a mono LTR. (just don’t commit financially and don’t get a kid) The most you can waste is some time and we have plenty of time (especially if it can teach us a valuable lesson), definitely when we’re young. Try the LTR stuff, maybe it works perfectly for you or maybe you crash and burn, learn from the experience and come back here when you can appreciate the alpha 2.0 lifestyle.

     

     

  3. I’m more similar to BD in that I’m a more low emotional guy which makes what the comment alluded to about feeling bad when women leave less of an issue for me.  Yes I do get a little sad about it if I truly liked the girl and enjoyed her company but I recover from it very quickly.  I also have multiple women in my life at any given time which supports the abundance mentality part of this lifestyle.

    I supposed I would understand it more if once your one and only girl leaves and now it’s dry spell time until you find a new one.  Although even if I didn’t have any other girls, I have other things to focus on in my life and friends to hang with for company.

    Overall though, I don’t totally avoid any longer term arrangements just because she’ll bail at some point and I’ll be hurt for a bit.   All things are temporary in this world and just because something will end in the future is no reason to cut yourself off completely from these experiences.  A big reason vacations are fun is because we know there is an end date so we live it up to the fullest while on it.  It would be silly never to take a vacation just because they aren’t permanent.

  4. So you wont think that why the fuck did I love this woman so much if it was gonna end anyway?

    No. Forever is Disney and Disney isn’t real. I live, and love, in the real world.

    Won’t you feel hesitant next time for an oltr?

    No. For the same reasons as above.

    Do you never have nihilistic thoughts like why I’m putting do much efforts in relationship if it’s gonna end anyway.

    Never. But it sounds like you do. Something to work on.

    I supposed I would understand it more if once your one and only girl leaves and now it’s dry spell time until you find a new one.

    …which only happens with monogamy. If PF left me tomorrow morning I’d still be having sex several times a week.

  5. Just wait and see what happens to all of these irrational Trump supporters when a socialist becomes president of the USA in the next few years. I thought America was going to be “great again?”

    I’m actually predicting that Trump is going to do a 180 and start becoming a poor man’s Comrade Bernie of sorts next year. Dude knows what he is doing and despite how he comes off, he is very crafty. Knows how to be a politician lol.

  6. I’m actually predicting that Trump is going to do a 180 and start becoming a poor man’s Comrade Bernie of sorts next year.

    Then I’ll still be right. 🙂

  7. Blackdragon,

    I’ve read the OLTR chapter of your Open Relationships book and, to my knowledge, I have every book of yours. Thank you for your work. Firstly, in addition to that, do you have a product? or a website devoted to OLTRs?

    I ask because I have a question regarding criteria for a prospective OLTR. If you’ve answered this before, I’ve yet to find the article and I’d appreciate your perspective. I understand woman leave men and that monogamy is not to be expected from any woman so here’s my question:

    In the situation where a woman (otherwise an ideal OLTR candidate), in seeing you is cheating on another man, how should this impact on 1) her eligibility for OLTR status? and, if that should NOT exclude her 2) the rules governing an OLTR with her?

  8. Firstly, in addition to that, do you have a product? or a website devoted to OLTRs?

    Only for OLTR Marriage, here: http://www.open-marriage.com. I will be updating that book late next year.

    The book at http://www.haveopenrelationships.com covers non-live-in OLTRs as much as needed.

    In the situation where a woman (otherwise an ideal OLTR candidate), in seeing you is cheating on another man, how should this impact on 1) her eligibility for OLTR status?

    Not if everything else looks good, no. Just about everyone cheats theses days, men and women both. I don’t like cheating because it’s lying, and I’ve never cheated on a woman in my entire life, but that being said, it’s a very human reaction to an inhuman situation (monogamy).

    and, if that should NOT exclude her 2) the rules governing an OLTR with her?

    No! No changes with the rules. If you want to upgrade her to OLTR she needs to immediately break up with this guy before the upgrade. She can still fuck him, but she can’t “date” him anymore.

    And if she refuses to do this, she doesn’t qualify for OLTR because OLTRs are emotionally exclusive (but MLTR with her would be just fine).

  9. I was having the following thought about the emotional impact, when very in love and emotionally invested with a woman, such as a very high end MLTR or OLTR for many years, but assuming you didn’t have kids with her. What difference in term of emotional suffering is there for you when she breaks up with you and completely disappears from your life (assuming you still love her, and the chances as a man are usually high to love a woman forever), compared to her dying from whatever unfortunate cause? There is of course a huge difference for her, but for yourself from your own point of view, in both cases she completely disappears from your life. Is it thus normal to experience similar intensity of emotional suffering?

    Also, is there a threshold above which the suffering experienced is a sign of oneitis?

  10. Let’s start there before I really get into this: age 35.

    Shit. This is one of those things you think won’t happen to you, until it does, right? I’m 33 and starting to feel the pull to get something a little more stable with some girl. Even thinking that having kids wouldn’t be such a bad idea.

    3 years ago I would be laughing at the thought.

  11. Buddhism teaches that “attachment leads to suffering”.

    Four Noble Truths

    Dukkha – Life is unsatisfactory, disjointed, suffering.
    Samudaya – There is a cause of suffering, which is attachment or desire (tanha).
    Nirodha – There is a cessation of suffering, which is to eliminate attachment and desire.
    Marga – The path that leads out of suffering is called the Noble Eightfold Path.

    The Buddha taught that in order to realize enlightenment, man must free himself from his ego, and give up all desires. He taught that by having so many desires (such as wanting pleasure, wealth, happiness, security, success, long life, etc.), man condemns himself to suffering, and will never escape the cycle of rebirths.

    Therefore Buddhism believes that suffering is self-created.

    https://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Introduction_to_Philosophy/What_is_Buddhist_Philosophy

  12. Buddhism teaches that “attachment leads to suffering”.

    And also that you should look for solutions inside and not outside.

  13. In the situation where a woman (otherwise an ideal OLTR candidate), in seeing you is cheating on another man, how should this impact on 1) her eligibility for OLTR status?

    Not if everything else looks good, no. Just about everyone cheats theses days, men and women both. I don’t like cheating because it’s lying, and I’ve never cheated on a woman in my entire life, but that being said, it’s a very human reaction to an inhuman situation (monogamy).

    This is interesting because I kinda see a potential situation with this for myself, but what about this: she has a boyfriend and is cheating on him with me but I am clearly not just a FB for her, more like on the MLTR level. Since she does this while having a bf does that disqualify her from OLTR?

  14. Do you never have nihilistic thoughts like why I’m putting do much efforts in relationship if it’s gonna end anyway.

    Why do anything if we’re going to die! Seriously, I wish you could filter these comments out. I thought we banned nihilism from this place.

    Women leave men.

    I think that women only leave betas. With alphas it is more likely that she will get frustrated or resentful that he won’t submit to be the man she could potentially turn him into, and then proceed to push him to the edge until he dumps her, or gets violent in the case of some alpha 1.0s. In these cases, I would prefer she leave me.

    The only reason relationships last so long, and it is women who end them nowadays is because men tolerate women’s bad behavior. Men should have zero toleration for drama, disrespect, or mistreatment, but they don’t. The worst thing a man can do to a woman is tolerate her.

    if we got divorced in under 4 years, it would be a complete failure.

    I guess this is personal, but I don’t get why you would consider anything regarding relationships a failure, much less feeling the need to verbalize it. To each their own I suppose.

    I find it interesting that you and other men aspire and have the strong desire for a relationship to last forever (which you wrote in that oltr expectations article). My guess is that I need to experience a really great girl that would cause me to feel that way so I can know what you guys are talking about.

     

    She actually survived it, and I made the upgrade to OLTR complete, with the goal of getting an OLTR marriage. And today, here were are.

    Typo

    I thought I saw two other sentences missing an I that were close together but couldn’t find them again.

     

  15. I was having the following thought about the emotional impact, when very in love and emotionally invested with a woman, such as a very high end MLTR or OLTR for many years, but assuming you didn’t have kids with her. What difference in term of emotional suffering is there for you when she breaks up with you and completely disappears from your life (assuming you still love her, and the chances as a man are usually high to love a woman forever), compared to her dying from whatever unfortunate cause?

    I’m unclear of the value of that quesiton.

    There is of course a huge difference for her, but for yourself from your own point of view, in both cases she completely disappears from your life. Is it thus normal to experience similar intensity of emotional suffering?

    I don’t care about what’s normal. I only care about what’s optimal to your happiness (which must be abnormal, since “normal” is now bad.) What is optimal is to re-orient both your life and your thinking to get to the point where if a woman leaves you won’t be depressed beyond belief.

    Also, is there a threshold above which the suffering experienced is a sign of oneitis?

    Of course. If a woman leaving you makes you fucking miserable then you clearly have oneitis. (Oneitis is action not thought, but if you’re fucking miserable that’s definitely manifesting in your actions.)

    Why do anything if we’re going to die! Seriously, I wish you could filter these comments out.

    It was one sentence, not a discussion. Chill.

    I thought we banned nihilism from this place.

    I did and it is. You’re the one talking about it.

    I think that women only leave betas.

    Incorrect. Women leave Alphas in droves. Women leave me all the time.

    The only difference is that with Alphas (particularly 2.0s) women eventfully come back. This is because when women leave Alphas, attraction is still high. When women leave betas, attraction is gone.

    With alphas it is more likely that she will get frustrated or resentful that he won’t submit to be the man she could potentially turn him into, and then proceed to push him to the edge until he dumps her, or gets violent in the case of some alpha 1.0s.

    That certainly happens, but it’s statistically unusual. Statistically speaking, men hate ending relationships no matter how bad they get, and that absolutely includes Alpha Male 1.0s (who either like or don’t mind drama).

    It’s women who leave men, not the other way around (again, statistically speaking; barring exceptions to the rule and all that).

    Men should have zero toleration for drama, disrespect, or mistreatment, but they don’t. The worst thing a man can do to a woman is tolerate her.

    Correct!

    Men’s problem, as always, is neediness and territoriality. This causes men to put up with all kinds of bullshit from their female partners that women don’t tolerate from their men.

    That’s the one power women have over men… it’s not sex… it’s the power to LEAVE: the power men just don’t fucking have. (Except us 2.0s of course.)

    I guess this is personal, but I don’t get why you would consider anything regarding relationships a failure

    Only this live-in OLTR Marriage lasting under 4 years. That’s because of the time and effort I’ve put into this relationship, much unlike the rest, because of the fact we’re living together. If it failed after all of that work within just 4 short years, then yeah, I’d be disappointed and upset (at myself, since it would be my fault).

    No other relationship, however, falls into this category. With all the rest, both current and past, yes, there is no “failure.” They were all good no matter how they turned out.

    I find it interesting that you and other men aspire and have the strong desire for a relationship to last forever (which you wrote in that oltr expectations article). My guess is that I need to experience a really great girl that would cause me to feel that way so I can know what you guys are talking about.

    Of all the women and all the decades of my life, I’ve only been in love 4 times in my entire life. (One was dysfunctional and beta and one was fleeting, but they both “count” in that they were real.) It’s a good feeling. If you haven’t experienced it yet, you’ll see what I mean when you do (and if you d0).

    There’s also the aspect of, do you really want to keep relationship-hopping in your 50s? 60s? 70s? 80s? I don’t.

    Typo

    Fixed.

  16. Caleb, do you think that there is a sort of “computer program” that runs in the reptilian part of men’s brains that manipulates them to settle down with a woman and produce kids around age 30-35, regardless of what the logical part of that man’s brain wants? The research on how the “3 brains” (the reptilian brain, the emotional brain, and the neocortex) work and the fact that I get urges to form a relationship with a girl despite not wanting one consciously leads me to believe that such a “program” exists in our brains.

  17. Caleb, do you think that there is a sort of “computer program” that runs in the reptilian part of men’s brains that manipulates them to settle down with a woman and produce kids around age 30-35, regardless of what the logical part of that man’s brain wants? The research on how the “3 brains” (the reptilian brain, the emotional brain, and the neocortex) work and the fact that I get urges to form a relationship with a girl despite not wanting one consciously leads me to believe that such a “program” exists in our brains.

    How about plain old societal programming? The counter evidence to the lizard brain hypothesis is that societies have existed where that kind of bonding doesn’t occur — mostly pre-agricultural societies, to be sure, and not so many of them around these days. But still not written in stone.  Sex at Dawn is a good fun book about mating patterns in primitive societies and amongst other primates that explodes some of the myths. It takes a few liberties, but it’s a fun read, all the rage in poly communities.

  18. What is optimal is to re-orient both your life and your thinking to get to the point where if a woman leaves you won’t be depressed beyond belief.

    Of course and I agree with that. My question goes both ways. Should an Alpha 2.0 man life his life and work on his mission in such away that if his OLTR of many years who he loves, dies for whatever unfortunate reason, he will of course be very sad but will still bounce back quickly emotionally speaking? Similarly to a break up.

    Or is death special?

    It may seem random thought and I may not be able to articulate properly how I came to this, but a lot has to do with facing over and over angain the same questions and remarks from monogamous people: “you don’t want to be with someone forever?”, “It’s so sad: you will die alone”, “I want to be married to a husband/wife and live forever happy”. To which my immediate thought is that, anyways in the best case scenario where they never divorce and are in love “forever”, nothing really is forever, and the highest probability is that death will separate them anyways, which will also cause suffering. It’s also my thought about Johnson: rationally he cannot deny and must embrace that in the best case scenario there is aleays an end to a relationship, be it death. So why not embrace also the possibility of a break up down the road as a natural thing that isn’t a failure in itself nor an evil feature of women. This should definitely not stop him from having an OLTR if a good candidate occurs in his women life and he feels a desire for pair bonding.

  19. As for myself so far at 37 I am still much more comfortable without kids and without OLTR, I like having a stream of FBs and MLTRs going in and out from my life, I find it much more conducive of happiness than any of the more “pair bonded” relationships I ever had, but they were all somewhat disfunctional OLTRs. I am very tempted by the OLTR with a young bisexual woman who also seeks swinging type of orgies, such as Marty’s (I am looking forward to that guest article). And one thing I find cool about their relationship is he mentioned in a past comment that they both don’t expect the relationship to last forever but they’re enjoying it so far as long as it makes sense for both of them.

    Contrary to Johnson, I think there is something very freeing in removing any expectation of “forever” in a love relationship, and it probably helps in making the relationship more focused on the present moment, more enjoyable. Less worried about the future when both embrace that they will part ways most probably.

  20. Guys, being afraid of a woman leaving you or feeling very hurt after she actually leaves you is all rooted in insecurity. A belief in lack instead of abundance to be precise.

    The reason you are hurt or scared is because you believe there is a limited amount of women that will ever love you like that, that are as pretty as she was, understood you exactly as you are, was your perfect match etc. It’s all unicorn/oneitis shit. Some guy pointed out that Buddhism teaches that ‘attachment leads to suffering’. This is true, if you have the correct understanding of attachment. Attachment in the frame of reference of Buddhism is something along the lines of dependent on or a need to control. They’re talking about attachment from the perspective of scarcity. It’s funny the amount of people that come across and study quotes that for example Buddhists teach and use it as a mantra while completely misinterpreting it.

    Being attached to something from the perspective of abundance is completely fine. You can be attached to a woman, as in  love her’ and when it ends be completely unfazed about it. (If you believe there are plenty of women, whom you might prefer even more) You can be very attached to your car and be cool as ice when it breaks down. (If you believe there are plenty car like it, even better ones actually) As long as you believe that things in life happen to teach you a lesson and that a new opportunity is just around the corner, nothing can ever be truly lacking.

    Every bad feeling you have ever experienced is rooted in a lack belief: A belief that something is missing or that there isn’t enough.

     

  21. As you get older the less attached you get to things or people.  That is if you have more important things in your life than women .  At 50 I can say that if any woman leaves I shrug and move on.  Sure there’s a risk for NRE in the very beginning due to reality not setting in but it fades fast.  You begin to put up with less drama, less stress, and the excitement that would normally keep you with a younger woman just wears you out.  I don’t want to deal with younger women due to how conflicting our schedules are and older women can be difficult.

    My dad always said, when I was a kid, that if a woman leaves he wouldn’t even lose a minute of sleep over it and I never got that.  Now I get it.   He had goals, mission, and a purpose so women were secondary and categorized as either beneficial to those or a hindrance.  That’s how I now categorize women.  Not how hot they are but how beneficial or how much of a hindrance they are to what I want 8n life.  If they leave I don’t lose a minute of sleep or if they cause me any hindrance (emotional stress, drama, not keeping to agreements) I ditch them.  That’s how you deal with emotional pain over a woman.  Have shit going on.  Mission, purpose, goals so that women are chosen ( relationships) based upon how beneficial she is to the accomplishment of those things. When she leaves it’s a blimp on the radar.

  22. I think it’s more about regret of investing in a relationship rather than insecurity of her leaving you.

  23. The Prison

    Present day

    Johnson

    If only you could had a glimpse of the “fullfillment” of 15 years of TMM, wife sex,  drama and Disney… Ah! And no cheating or dumping from his lady, only the prospect of lifelong boredom and frustration for both of you.

    Feeling better? Now go work on your Mission, and forget that high ROI unicorn lady of yours. BTW she’s one of the guards …

    Yours truly

  24. As a 54 year old divorced man, I’ve had the opportunity to spin plates and I’m considering settling down with one particular woman. I’m operating under the understanding that monogamy doesn’t work but we may have a chance at our respective advanced ages. We’re not talking  marriage by the way. I’m operating under the assumption that if it lasts a good long time, terrific, if not, then I’ll be fine going back to spinning plates. As far as trusting her goes, I operate under the assumption that you can trust a woman to be a woman, nothing more. Therefore, she gets 80 to 90% of my heart. That’s just how it is for me.

    Blackdragon, do I have it correct that the evolutionary basis for women getting tired of monotonous relationships at about the 3-year point is that that is the point which a child would be old enough to be looked after by family members or older children of the tribe? Therefore, the mother would be free from  nursing and intense child  rearing responsibilities to entertain another man?

  25. Caleb, do you think that there is a sort of “computer program” that runs in the reptilian part of men’s brains that manipulates them to settle down with a woman and produce kids around age 30-35, regardless of what the logical part of that man’s brain wants?

    Yes, I do. This happens to women around age 28 too, as I’ve noted in the past.

    Of course I’m not a biologist and I have no hard science to back this up, but yes, that’s what my theory is; something “happens” internally to a man around age 35 the same way it “happens” to a woman around age 28 that signals “Okay dumbass, time to move in with someone and start making babies even though you’ll eventually hate it. Now be good little robot and move in with someone and promise monogamy.”

    However, as has already been observed in this thread, SP is a strong component of this as well, so it’s not just biology.

    Should an Alpha 2.0 man life his life and work on his mission in such away that if his OLTR of many years who he loves, dies for whatever unfortunate reason, he will of course be very sad but will still bounce back quickly emotionally speaking?

    Yes.

    Or is death special?

    Not going to discuss death in this context. It’s too close to the topics of nihilism and determinism that I’ve banned on this blog.

    Guys, being afraid of a woman leaving you or feeling very hurt after she actually leaves you is all rooted in insecurity. A belief in lack instead of abundance to be precise.

    I tend to agree.

    As you get older the less attached you get to things or people.

    Ehhh, not exactly. I would add to that “…as long as you’re Alpha.” Most men are betas, and I’ve seen most men (betas) actually get more clingy and afraid to be alone when they get up into their 60s or so.

    I think it’s more about regret of investing in a relationship rather than insecurity of her leaving you.

    And that’s something you need to get over as well. I have an entire podcast on Zero-Based Thinking here.

    As a 54 year old divorced man, I’ve had the opportunity to spin plates and I’m considering settling down with one particular woman. I’m operating under the understanding that monogamy doesn’t work but we may have a chance at our respective advanced ages.

    At age 54? And you’ve been spinning plates? No. Sorry. You’ll cheat.

    You’re not old.

    Once you’re well over age 65, then maybe.

    Blackdragon, do I have it correct that the evolutionary basis for women getting tired of monotonous relationships at about the 3-year point is that that is the point which a child would be old enough to be looked after by family members or older children of the tribe? Therefore, the mother would be free from nursing and intense child rearing responsibilities to entertain another man?

    Yes, at least that’s the theory.

    I can’t scientifically pinpoint why this happens at the three year mark, just that it does happen at three years.

  26. One of my favorite books of all time is Milan Kundera’s “The Unforgiveable Lightness of Being.” In relationship dynamics, regardless of gender, the “light” person (who assigns little meaning to the relationship) always holds power over the “heavy” person (who assigns a lot of meaning), but in life dynamics, the “light” person loses out as he was too busy spreading “meaning” to various things and regret never having given 100% to anyone (thus inducing feeling of “emptiness”). I think there is a lot of truth to this underlying philosophy.

    Everything in life is solving an optimization problem, and Caleb optimized for maximum “freedom” given life constraints (and did fantastic job in giving step by step advice in how to achieve it)  – whether or not if that leads to maximum “happiness,” I feel, is debatable.

    My quick question is, has Pink Firefly ever communicated with you how she feels when you publicly say that if she disappears from your life, you will feel “a little sad” but will be able to bounce back as if nothing happened in matter of weeks? I have a feeling she probably thinks you’re lying to yourself about your feelings that are a lot deeper than you portray them to be.

     

  27. women are women. I know someday she’ll cheat on me by falling in love with another man.

    If we stick with the societal-programming image of men and women, then we have to say that both men and women “cheat”; men simultaneously and women serially (moving from one to the next when the first one’s function has ended — it depends on what use she picked him for to begin with, but every use has its time expiry).

    If we move without the societally-programming territory, we’ll say that men act like men and women like women, no-one cheats anyone.
    The average woman will be in fact less “cheating”-prone than the average man; while she will be more “cheating”-prone and leaving-prone than the very serious/very attached man.

    Which means that for idealistic/attached/very serious/self-conscious men dealing with women is an emotional (if not financial) hurdle (including the fact that you are dealing with somebody with very poor introspective powers compared to yours. She hasn’t much cognition of what she is going to want and do, or why is she. She knows nothing of her serial monogamy drives, no matter how many pick-stay-leave cycles she has been through.)

    Just the way it is for the average woman dealing with the average man (emotionally only, of course. Financially and legally she is championed by the State, all the branches of it from the judiciary to mainstream media and Hollywood, as a caste higher than men).

    An alpha 2.0 is a man who wants to have as much sex as possible with different women (and wants to do it without spreading unnecessary grief in other people’s lives). Another option is the Sigma, someone who has learned how not to hurt or be hurt. This blog concentrates in Alpha 2.0 teaching but it’s equally useful for the man on the sigma road, I think.

  28. @Seething Lurker

     

    Yeah. The reproductive cycle is over after that span, and if the man isn’t the most convenient ecoonomic and social status provider he no longer is any use then.
    Even if he is still some use to her, “love” and enthusiasm will vanish — people still keep together for a vast coount of reason of course.

    I believe there are exceptions, but the term “exception” is to be taken literally if you want to be liked and loved.

     

    Also, for the sake of remaining in ignorance about her serially monogamous nature (which clashes with societal programming), she’ll have to thoroughly rewrite her history with you to draw the conclusion that you regularly mistreated her and never loved her and now, at last, she is leaving, not by any choice but hers but “having no choice”.

  29. Guys, being afraid of a woman leaving you or feeling very hurt after she actually leaves you is all rooted in insecurity. A belief in lack instead of abundance to be precise.

    I tend to agree.

    I too agree. Just allow that somewhere between 5 and 15% of men who “are in love” are in love for real in an idealistic, easily destructive way.
    I remember an English Football League goalkeeper killing himself for being left by the woman he was in a monogamous relationship with.

    Guy was around 25 of age and by his appearance alone he could have gotten in a new monogamous relationship with pretty much anyone to his liking with little effort. And yet…

     

  30. Also, for the sake of remaining in ignorance about her serially monogamous nature (which clashes with societal programming), she’ll have to thoroughly rewrite her history with you to draw the conclusion that you regularly mistreated her and never loved her and now, at last, she is leaving, not by any choice but hers but “having no choice”.

    This is spot on in my view.  I find that even MLTR‘s will rewrite her history with me and make me a bad guy when she decides to LSNFTE me.  One in particular I should say.  Suddenly something she’s put up with the entire time (me seeing multiple women) will be too much and suddenly means I must not really care about her or something along those lines to which I respond, “I’m sorry you’re not happy anymore.”  Which is met with an attempt at some drama or an “I can’t keep doing it.” and my response is “ok”.  She may come back with “What?  That’s it, see you never did care.”  Then I leave it at radio silence.  She’ll be back.

  31. Everything in life is solving an optimization problem, and Caleb optimized for maximum “freedom” given life constraints (and did fantastic job in giving step by step advice in how to achieve it) – whether or not if that leads to maximum “happiness,” I feel, is debatable.

    That’s because you’re a woman. Happiness for women and happiness for men are two very different things, as I’ve described here many times. My advice here is for men and generally won’t apply to women (barring the exceptions to the rule).

    My quick question is, has Pink Firefly ever communicated with you how she feels when you publicly say that if she disappears from your life, you will feel “a little sad” but will be able to bounce back as if nothing happened in matter of weeks?

    Yes. So have other women I’ve dated in the past who have read this blog.

    I have a feeling she probably thinks you’re lying to yourself about your feelings that are a lot deeper than you portray them to be.

    Actually it’s the opposite. One of her (mostly irrational) fears is that I’ll instantly terminate the relationship with no warning at some point (because of drama) and then just shrug and walk off into the sunset whistling a happy tune. She knows me a lot better than you do.

    To be fair to her though, that’s not how it would happen (if it would happen), in that I would honestly be sad and she would see it coming from a mile away (it would not happen “without warning”). But you get my point.

    women are women. I know someday she’ll cheat on me by falling in love with another man.

    If we stick with the societal-programming image of men and women, then we have to say that both men and women “cheat”; men simultaneously and women serially (moving from one to the next when the first one’s function has ended — it depends on what use she picked him for to begin with, but every use has its time expiry).

    Yeah that’s one of Johnson’s statements I don’t agree with. Dumping you and hooking up with someone else after the dump is not “cheating.” It’s shitty, but it’s still not cheating. It just feels like it when you’re a man.

  32. What do you think your biggest hurdles in the OLTR marriage were?  One I can forsee is the cost of the ceremony and engagement ring.  You have spoken before about making it “Not a big deal”, but how did you mentally get by the mindset of an expense for the “show”.

    in my previous marriage i felt like I made all themoney and she spent it, and I’m determined to never make that mistake again.  Could you talk about how that works in your OLTR marriage?

     

  33. Great post.

    In regards to the suffering and attachment, I have made jokes to ladies that I look at dating and relationships like I do getting a new dog.  They will look at me like WTF lol.  The dog will probably only be in my life for max 15 years but maybe less.

    We love our pets and grow attached to them and might fear losing them just like we do a person right (sometimes more than humans)?  But we still get one knowing the dog (or cat) won’t be with us forever.  It is a temporary relationship and yet we still do it! 

    We are willing to enjoy the time we have over the fear of losing them.  So, why can’t we do that with people, especially considering we are more unstable and unpredictable than dogs are?

    They will kinda look at me like, “fuck this dude is a mess…but he makes a good point” =))

    ==========

    On a separate issue, I have noticed lately that I have been having good luck by just admitting to women a lil sooner in the process (after sex 3x maybe and we bond emotionally), that I have weaknesses, not perfect, have struggles, am high sex drive guy and I throw out subtle hints that I wonder if long-term monogamy really works. I get them to tell me their thoughts too and open up to me once they see I am a mess or kinda wild.  I will ask them if monogamy bores them too or if they have challenges with it or am I just a mess?  How many guys do you think say this to them?

    I will also tell them I don’t do controlling relationships – this helps later is case they wanna control me sexually cuz they will agree they HATE being controlled too.  I will tease them about if they ran into their favorite hot actor (or dream guy), that we both know she would bone him in a heartbeat (especially if she knew she would not get caught) and how I would not blame her. Usually they will either agree or just a non answer laugh (which tells me a lot).  Then I tease her that the reason she would not expect this actor to be monogamous with her (nor care) is because she believes he has options.  Several times they have admitted to having double standards on this!  I just tease them well I got options too so as long as she gives me same respect as him, we cool.   I may even throw in things like I do wanna get married again some day but not sure I could do a traditional one but maybe more of a modern one then change the topic real quick.

    It’s amazing to see a woman that “appears” to be very quite and innocent transform into a lil wild party girl that comes to see me to escape reality or for some fun versus same all boring thing most guys are giving her (they are either begging her to be exclusive, she subconsciously puts them in friend zone or they are controlling and abusive the majority of time).

    But the other thing this has done is weed out a lot of Drama down the road because I have already admitted who I am and got her to loosen up and admit she hates boredom, has double standards and hates controlling relationships too so she is really like me more than she realizes.

    Many times the ones that suffer from high ASD can’t admit anything out loud and have the appearance of innocence seem to be the ones that love this even MORE!  They want me as their side guy while they look for a provider or whatever but they can’t verbally say it.   I am totally fine with that too.  It provides them some danger and excitement they can’t find very easy.  Sure, they can run to bar or tinder for an FB, but they won’t get the emotional fulfillment and connection that they got with me from opening up and talking about our deepest, darkest secrets or fantasies.

    So, now they not only have a guy that provides sex but someone that they can open up to and be themselves and live out their fantasies with and not fight or deal with all the other BS most relationships have.

    I do think you are right BD about how this is becoming easier it seems just in the last 2-3 years.  The thing that amazes me about your Pink FF girl is that she is a corporate girl that agreed to a OLTR marriage!  Usually, I would have guessed that women that would be more open to that would be women that are looking for a Provider, Sugar dadd or lower income workers, not a corp job chic!  Very interesting how you accomplished that feat for sure lol.

  34. @SabrinaK

    I love your comment! Is the interpretation you gave from Kundera himself or did you create it? I read the novel a while back when I was 16 and liked it, but I guess I should read it again. You motivated me. You should post more comments here. This one was very insightful!

  35. I think it’s more about regret of investing in a relationship rather than insecurity of her leaving you.

    It really stings to think about how much you emotionally invest into a relationship. All that time, money, and energy, only to get totally blindsided.

    That’s the worst right there, when you think everything is going great, then out of nowhere your wife says that she wants a divorce. You’re like where did that come from. Then she tells you she hasn’t been feeling it for months or even years, further increasing your pain. Then you become hesitant to invest invest anymore because the same thing could happen all over again.

    The sunk cost fallacy is real. Guys that fall into a women’s trap of serial monogamy don’t realize that their days are numbered. They start getting mistreated, and emotionally abused, but they continue, since they already invested all of that time. The prospect of going back into the dating scene is terrifying, but at this point what can they do.

    Men are suffering the inverse of what women suffered pre-sexual revolution. Women couldn’t leave their men because of social shaming or lack of economic opportunities. Some put up with getting beat and raped by their husbands.

    Now men are needy, so they put with women’s drama, nagging, and kinds of other crap because think they don’t have a choice. Unlike women back in the day, they do have a choice. Unfortunately and sadly many don’t come to this realization.

  36. Duke, u have it wrong. Pre sexual revolution is was men who had it as bad or worse. Do u really believe female nature has changed ?
    In an environment where divorce is frowned upon women are even greater tyrants…….and as for sex….well they could shut it down and the man had no recourse lest he suffer social shaming, job loss, etc.

  37. The comedian Patrice O’Neal had a great take on losing a woman. He says ask yourself the question: If you lost your woman tomorrow, what did you really lose? He argues that what really hurts is men’s arrogance and pride at losing a possession, like as if you actually controlled that woman and owned her, instead of accepting the proposition that “she’s not yours, its just your turn.” He equates losing a woman to losing your favorite pencil. Hilarious, a true pimp.

  38. @Duke

    Honestly, I have lived with women or been in mono relationships were I felt MORE lonely than I did being single and just dating around.

    After reading and learning BDs system and then seeing how its all 100% true and accurate first hand the past 5 years, there is absolutely no way I could ever do a traditional mono marriage!

    The whole thing just feels too much like a scam to me.  And I tell them this too.  As a matter of fact, one lady I been dating last 8 months that plays all innocent has a Black Widow sticker on her car window!  LMAO.   Come on man….

    So, we have 2 or 3 dogs and love all of them right?  So, have 2 or 3 girls too so WHEN one leaves, you still got 2 =)

  39. Honestly, I have lived with women or been in mono relationships were I felt MORE lonely than I did being single and just dating around.

    I’ve heard this a lot before. Looking back, why exactly were you in those relationships if they made you feel lonely? Doesn’t make sense.

  40. @Duke

    “I’ve heard this a lot before. Looking back, why exactly were you in those relationships if they made you feel lonely? Doesn’t make sense.”

    Well these were usually in last several years were I was testing out BDs system and also different ideas and sometimes I would try out conditional monogamy or short-term mogamay etc to kinda get a feel for what I personally was able to handle and deal with.

    First off, in terms of these guys agreeing to be mono with a lady that lives 30-45 mins away is absolute fucking nuts and I simply cannot imagine this at all anymore.  Not conditionally or short-term.  The last one I attempted I would see her maybe 1x a week if I was lucky.  And it was usually last minute and when SHE had time.  It lasted a whole 2 weeks and then I told her sorry I can’t do this.  It feels like I am being used as a plan B and my dick caged up.  Shit even IF she was a planner and we planned it 3 x per week, I would still feel like she is controlling me and I just can’t deal with this bullshit or scam at all.  Plus, you know they are dating and talking to others anyways so its a complete shit show and scam on men basically.

    I have thought about why I feel more lonely in a mono relationship and I think it is a mix of loneliness and fear of being Scammed or taken for granted or used?  Because most women do not appreciate a man that takes care of them!  Just 2 weeks ago, one lady I’m seeing told me she lived w/ her ex BF for 8 months rent free. She didn’t work either.  He kicked her out for meeting her abusive ex husband at a football game (the ex she always complains about of course lol).  She told me, “yeah but he (ex BF) was kinda fat anyways and didn’t give me any extra spending money Kurt…”.

    This same chic cheated on her 1st husband at age 21 with her 2nd husband and was now meeting the 2nd one she divorced in 2015 at a game while living with a guy that she was “monogamous” with.  And she has a Black Widow sticker on her car and keeps asking me to be exclusive with her and that “she needs this to feel safe” or that “she wants someone she can give 100% to” or that “she is not that kind of woman”.  LMAO.      (and yes I downgraded her to a FB or FWB and she is ignoring me and me her last 2 weeks since I won’t give her what she claims she needs – monogamy.  If she comes back, it will be her 3rd boomerang in 8 months btw.)

    Should I keep going?  lol   =))

  41. What do you think your biggest hurdles in the OLTR marriage were?

    Honestly, they are exactly the same as with a normal, traditional marriage; learning how to live 24/7 with another human of the opposite sex you’re romantic with.

    One I can forsee is the cost of the ceremony and engagement ring.  You have spoken before about making it “Not a big deal”, but how did you mentally get by the mindset of an expense for the “show”.

    I didn’t need a mindset. Just told her that if she wanted that crap she would pay for the vast majority of it. And she did.

    in my previous marriage i felt like I made all themoney and she spent it, and I’m determined to never make that mistake again. Could you talk about how that works in your OLTR marriage?

    You have 100% separate finances and never share a single penny for any reason. You pay your bills and groceries and gas, and she pays for hers. You can give your wife money if you want, but that’s still not sharing (it was yours, you give it to her, now it’s hers; there is never an “ours”).

    It’s that simple. It was strange getting used to (mostly for her) but we’ve been doing it for a year and a half now so now it feels normal.

    I too had money arguments in my monogamy marriage. All monogamously married people have those stupid arguments. That’s what happens when you co-own something. And that’s why I’ve structured my life so I will never have those arguments ever again.

    Not once have PF and I argued about money. It’s beautiful.

    The sunk cost fallacy is real.

    True. Reason #467 to never promise a woman monogamy. Why expose yourself to such a huge and predictable set of future problems?

    “she’s not yours, its just your turn.”

    Factually accurate. But most men don’t have strong egos enough to embrace such a concept, and will instead do the opposite and seek the Unicorn.

  42. “she needs this to feel safe” or that “she wants someone she can give 100% to” or that “she is not that kind of woman”

    I think this is a form of OBW that BD talks about, but for women. From a biological perspective she needs to feel safe. But given modern comforts such as a police force, and being able to have her source of income, there is no reason for her to really need security. Of course it now becomes a luxury item. If she really wanted it she could get in from a needy/thirsty male; hence why she keeps coming back too you, best of both worlds.

    It was strange getting used to (mostly for her)

    Everybody paying for their own shit? Or you not being a provider? Does this mean that you were paying for everything pre move in? Also, I’m assuming you gave her money without her having to ask you post move in. Given that you already said that she only recently, or took years, to get the nerve to ask you how much you make. I could just imagine her feeling like she is being ripped off when her friends likely have betas willing to give them everything so easily.

  43. @Duke

    “I think this is a form of OBW that BD talks about, but for women. From a biological perspective she needs to feel safe. But given modern comforts such as a police force, and being able to have her source of income, there is no reason for her to really need security. Of course it now becomes a luxury item. If she really wanted it she could get in from a needy/thirsty male; hence why she keeps coming back too you, best of both worlds.”

    Yeah well I need to feel safe too! lol.  Maybe you just hit the nail on the head!  I feel 300% more safe not being monogamous with a woman now than I would being mono with her.  I just can’t even do short term or conditional mono anymore.  Once you experience the boomerang effect with multiple women and have at least 2 rolling at all times, it kinda becomes funny and much easier to do.  And I feel so much safer too! lol =))

  44. Everybody paying for their own shit? Or you not being a provider?

    Little things, like going to the grocery store together but each one of us paying for our own food.

    Does this mean that you were paying for everything pre move in?

    Uh, seriously? Who do you think you’re talking to?

    Also, I’m assuming you gave her money without her having to ask you post move in.

    There have been times, but not as a regular thing.

    Given that you already said that she only recently, or took years, to get the nerve to ask you how much you make.

    Correct.

    I could just imagine her feeling like she is being ripped off when her friends likely have betas willing to give them everything so easily.

    If she felt this way I’d be getting much more drama and/or angst from her, and I’m not, so I doubt she does. Later she could, that’s certainly possible, sure.

    However, as I’ve said before, she still has lifestyle benefits by being with me even though our finances are separate. As one simple example, she gets to live in my amazing house, something she could never afford on her own (nor could any beta male husband or boyfriend she currently knows, at least as far as I know).

  45. Can you please elaborate on paying separately for even food?
    Like if you’re having the same dish you’d pay for how much you ate and she for hers?

    What about when you go out to eat?

     

  46. @Blackdragon

    Ok I know this is WAY off topic probably but I just had an issue come up that has never occurred to me yet in my 5 years of dating!

    This one lady and I have had sex 2 x so far.  She lives 30 mins away and invited me over again today.  This morning she tells me that she just started her period so nothing will be happening sexually.

    My gut tells me this could be a shit test but IDK.

    What would you do?  If I use my Alpha brain, I do what makes ME happy, which would mean not going lol. =))

  47. Can you please elaborate on paying separately for even food?
    Like if you’re having the same dish you’d pay for how much you ate and she for hers?

    I love how guys seem to think I whip out a calculator, receipts, and a measuring scale every time I eat with my own wife. You guys are funny.

    She buys her groceries, I buy mine. That’s it. She makes her own food, I make mine, and we sit down and eat together for dinner. That’s it.

    If we eat the same stuff, which we usually don’t since I’m always on a diet, we “owe” the other person some random amount ($5-10 or whatever), but usually we just let it go because we don’t care. I have no interest in spending the rest of my life nickel-and-dimeing this stuff.

    What about when you go out to eat?

    There’s lots of ways you can handle that, but here’s what we do. Sundays are days I’ve committed to spend with Pink Firefly and keep work to a minimum. On those days, if we go out to eat, I pay for it. It’s already in my monthly budget. But if she wants to eat out (going out, or takeout, or whatever) at any other time throughout the week (and often she does), she has to to pay for it herself if she gets it for herself, or pay for her half if she wants me to eat with her (which, again, I usually can’t, since I’m always on a diet). The exceptions to this rule are special occasions (birthdays, etc) or times like when she’s sick and I’m being nice by taking care of her. But those are the exceptions, not the norm.

    For some reason, people seem to think this separation of money thing is really complicated. It isn’t. I guess I should do an article about this.

  48. For some reason, people seem to think this separation of moeny thing is really complicated. It isn’t. I guess I should do an article about this.

    It’s not complicated, but the “men are programmed to be providers” myth is strong, and the feeling of it being expected by women is also there. It’s pure SP. Guys are not shameless enough to go to a grocery store with their wife, put that separater thingy between their stuff, act like husband and wife, and then experience the potential judgement of  the cashier. God forbid they should bump into someone they know.

    Same with a restaurant. Asking for separate checks is another potentially awkward moment. Men don’t realize that paying for everything makes a woman lose respect for them, especially if they don’t have that separation of labor agreement you advise when raising children. Having this talk would make even men “with game” uncomfortable. A “how to get in the right mindset and have the I’m not your provider and we’ll split everything talk” 101 course would be nice.

  49. I did the separate finances thing with my ex wife for the first seven years out of a ten year marriage. We even lived in separate houses for the first couple of years, but even after that, we split bills, paid our own way on joint trips and so on. It worked fine. In the last three years, I broke down and we bought a house together. From that point, everything went down hill and it ended in disaster.

    Maintain your vigilance. Stay strong.

  50. Of course I’m not a biologist and I have no hard science to back this up, but yes, that’s what my theory is; something “happens” internally to a man around age 35 the same way it “happens” to a woman around age 28 that signals “Okay dumbass, time to move in with someone and start making babies even though you’ll eventually hate it. Now be good little robot and move in with someone and promise monogamy.”

    Women are aware of this too! 🙂 Also widely and affectionately known as “Avocado Theory” – https://www.manrepeller.com/2013/10/the-avocado-theory.html

    That’s because you’re a woman. Happiness for women and happiness for men are two very different things, as I’ve described here many times. My advice here is for men and generally won’t apply to women (barring the exceptions to the rule).

    Agree that some components of happiness is gendered. Disagree that to maximize happiness for *all* men is to maximize for “freedom” (or “independence”) – if it was, we won’t have so many comments here from men who report feeling unhappy, bitter, and empty following your advice. My personal experience with men (yes, I am aware they won’t be statistically significant, but most empirical evidence are not) tells me most men optimize for maximum societal approval (or “respect”) than for maximum independence (or “lack of drama”) to maximize their happiness level. So for most men, Alpha 2.0 advice will not make them optimally happy unless they change their attitude towards life completely. (But I think this blog is for “a small subset of men”, so my point does not invalidate your business!)

    Actually it’s the opposite. One of her (mostly irrational) fears is that I’ll instantly terminate the relationship with no warning at some point (because of drama) and then just shrug and walk off into the sunset whistling a happy tune. She knows me a lot better than you do.

    If she has “fears” of your terminating the relationship, it does not sound like this OLTR arrangement is secure and happy for PF – especially because, at least in my view, that “stability,” or at least the perception of it, is a key element in feminine happiness. Then again, this advice is for men, and your OLTR arrangement does not have to be the optimal happy arrangement for the women (especially because you believe women *cannot* be long term happy). You’re absolutely right PF knows you and herself a lot better than I do, and it is her choice to make her life decisions – all my jibes aside, I do wish you and PF a long successful marriage.

    @TonyOutOfNowhere

    I love your comment! Is the interpretation you gave from Kundera himself or did you create it? I read the novel a while back when I was 16 and liked it, but I guess I should read it again. You motivated me. You should post more comments here. This one was very insightful!

    Thanks Tony, it is my interpretation of Kundera’s book. The novel is actually about many things encompassing politics, personal relationships, etc. and speaks to different people differently – as all good novels should. I actually refrain from posting too many comments in this blog as I am not the blog’s core audience – I am a 26 year old woman with a lot of “SP” and will never advocate Alpha 2.0 lifestyle to the men in my life – what is optimal for you guys is not optimal for me. With that said, I have a tremendous respect for Caleb’s clear and logical mind that rarely contradicts itself (which is very rare) and will continue to follow this blog.

  51. I’m about to downgrade a OLTR of 3 years due to honesty issues. It won’t be an easy thing to do especially because I currently have no FBs (just an occasional hookup). However, having been in a 14 year relationship previously, I have known all along that I am just as likely to get bored as she is. There are also lots of little things in a long term relationship that get annoying like her mess, not being able to take month long trips to Asia and not being able to date other women (which in my small city makes finding FBs extremely difficult). Overall I anticipate my life being less happy the next few months as I adjust to single life.  As a very experienced guy I also know I will probably never find another women as cool as my current OLTR but ultimately I will be  even less happy if I put up with dishonesty. Thus a downgrade is in order. At least under the Alpha 2.0 model the relationship won’t end completely.

  52. @Captain

    When you say dishonesty, can you elaborate?

    Because this is an area of the OLTR that seems tricky to me – telling them WE just have “emotional monogamy” and if we have sex outside, it is only just sex.  No affairs etc.

    Well, the problem with this is that when women cheat, they usually want the emotional side too. Or that very fact we said no affairs and no overnight stuff or texting all the time means this is what they will probably want to do lol.  If for any reason, just to get a reaction out of us.

    Sometimes I wish I could just have 2 wives instead lmao =))  Hmmmm….

  53. @ Kurt

    I don’t have time to fully elaborate but she lied to me twice in the last 2 months. The first time was a full on deception. The second time was just her being a silly girl and not coming home on a night when she said she was going to. Both things are fine for a MLTR but not for a OLTR.

  54. @Captain

    Gotcha.  I am considering owning a Duplex so we can live close but not together if I ever find one lol.

    Or a home with a Garage apartment. That way, if I have to downgrade an OLTR to an MLTR, she gets kicked out the the apartment and another chic can stay in my place lmao =))   Travel trailer might work too lol….

    Anything that allows me more freedom and them less control over me basically seems to be the key in all this.  Good luck man!

  55. @Captain

    Actually, I had an GF that lived w/ me a while back and caught her being deceptive/lying to me too so I decided to have some fun with it versus try to chew her out and all that jazz.

    So, I used my CallRail phone IVR software (for my biz) to send my cell phone texts that appeared as if a bunch of chics were always texting me 24/7 from different phone #s.   Of course, I would conveniently leave my cell laying around so she could see them lmao.

    Its fucking amazing how their attitude changes when they think or know you are wanted by other women huh!  At the time, I had a dip in my FB or FWB roster and was working so much, it really helped extend the life of that relationship a long time.

    But she would see it and look and roll her eyes and throw it on the ground.  One time, I heard her say, “fucking bitch…” under her breath.   Then she would attack me and throw me on the bed!  lmao.

    It was soooo much fun that I am just waiting to try it again when someone else lies to me or plays games.

    And yes I know it is childish but I don’t care =))

  56. I would like to hear yalls input on this approach to an OLTR marriage or live in:

    Basically, I would tell em that I do want to get re-married some day but that I don’t think she would be able to handle me because…

    1. I wouldn’t feel safe without a pre-nup and keeping finances separate.

    2. that I cheated on my ex-wife (admit to adultery if I have not yet) and that I don’t want to cheat on you.  I have weaknesses as an alpha male as you know sweetie so I can’t promise you anything on this issue really…BUT I am still willing to marry you (or live with you) if you are brave enough to try it w/ a mess like me?

    Really # 2 could be used as “the talk” as well.  So far I have tried this approach (versus being all technical and ENTP on them during the talk and their eyes becoming blurred lol) and it seems to work pretty good because they love trying to fix us and tame us etc.

    And you know odds are high she will say she is not gonna cheat but will do so anyways, even if it is to see my reaction.  Then I just act aloof and clueless or like, “who am I to judge anyone sweetie…”. (which should kill most drama off once she realizes she can’t provoke me)

    If she ever hounded me for anything or talking to anyone else, I just tell her I told her I could not promise anything on this issue and that she can leave or stay and that I would not blame her or hate her at all if she decided to leave me.

    But this “Talk” or “Talk Variations” would be a great article too sometime BD if you ever get time.  It is very hard on me because I have a huge white board and am very logical and want to explain the fuck out of everything.  But most women get lost after 5 mins and it seems to de-romanticize it or take some of the mystery and challenge away from them if they learn how smart I really am lmao. =))

     

  57. A “how to get in the right mindset and have the I’m not your provider and we’ll split everything talk” 101 course would be nice.

    Late next year…

    I did the separate finances thing with my ex wife for the first seven years out of a ten year marriage. We even lived in separate houses for the first couple of years, but even after that, we split bills, paid our own way on joint trips and so on. It worked fine. In the last three years, I broke down and we bought a house together. From that point, everything went down hill and it ended in disaster.

    Maintain your vigilance. Stay strong.

    I hope all of you readers read that above comment very, very carefully.

  58. Disagree that to maximize happiness for *all* men is to maximize for “freedom” (or “independence”)

    Not all. Most.

    if it was, we won’t have so many comments here from men who report feeling unhappy, bitter, and empty following your advice.

    Where are all of these “so many comments?” I don’t see them.

    My personal experience with men (yes, I am aware they won’t be statistically significant, but most empirical evidence are not) tells me most men optimize for maximum societal approval (or “respect”) than for maximum independence (or “lack of drama”) to maximize their happiness level. So for most men, Alpha 2.0 advice will not make them optimally happy unless they change their attitude towards life completely. (But I think this blog is for “a small subset of men”, so my point does not invalidate your business!)

    You’re just repeating something I said only about a thousand times. I have entire chapters in my books about this.

    The only thing you’re getting wrong is that pursuing societal approval does not make men happy in the long-term. It makes them happy in the short-term and unhappy in the long.

    You’re mixing up what men do with what makes them long-term happy. Even though you’re a woman I strongly recommend you read my main book, where I fully explain the issues you seem to be confused about.

    If she has “fears” of your terminating the relationship, it does not sound like this OLTR arrangement is secure and happy for PF – especially because, at least in my view, that “stability,” or at least the perception of it, is a key element in feminine happiness.

    She would not be happy (again, long-term) in a normal monogamous marriage either. Because she’s a woman. (Remember, 80% of divorces in normal monogamous marriages are initiated by the female, almost half of all married women are on prescription opioids, etc, etc.)

    A man can not, nor should not attempt to structure any relationship around what “would make a woman happy,” simply because women can’t be happy in the long-term no matter what a man does. Read this for more detail.

    Instead, a man should structure a relationship that A) makes him happy (since that’s actually achievable), B) minimizes the damage caused to him if the woman leaves (because she probably will) and C) gives the woman as much love and freedom as she can so she can become as “happy” (or more accurately, least unhappy) as she is able to be within the constraints of her biology which doesn’t want to be long-term happy.

    I do wish you and PF a long successful marriage.

    Thank you!

    what is optimal for you guys is not optimal for me.

    Correct. What is optimal for you is to demand absolute monogamy and fealty from any man you date while retaining the right to dump that poor bastard and break his heart literally whenever you feel like it for any reason you want.

    While that may be ideal for you, it’s borderline abusive for the other party (which can’t be said about a woman in an OLTR, who is free to do whatever she wants at any time with no drama from the man).

    Therefore, a more equatable arrangement is to have a relationship where both parties retain a high degree of freedom instead of just the woman (serial monogamy) or just the man (I can fuck other people but you can’t!). Neither of those models are fair, nor workable long-term, nor conducive to long-term happiness.

  59. I’m about to downgrade a OLTR of 3 years due to honesty issues.

    I have a friend on the East Coast who is currently nexting is OLTR of three years; he’s not a happy camper right now. But hey, at least you’re the one doing it; you’re not tolerating crap and putting up with things like most men with girlfriends do.

    It won’t be an easy thing to do especially because I currently have no FBs

    MISTAKE!!!!! De facto monogamy, the single greatest risk to men in OLTRs!

    At least under the Alpha 2.0 model the relationship won’t end completely.

    Correct!

    Basically, I would tell em that I do want to get re-married some day but that I don’t think she would be able to handle me because…

    1. I wouldn’t feel safe without a pre-nup and keeping finances separate.

    2. that I cheated on my ex-wife (admit to adultery if I have not yet) and that I don’t want to cheat on you.  I have weaknesses as an alpha male as you know sweetie so I can’t promise you anything on this issue really…BUT I am still willing to marry you (or live with you) if you are brave enough to try it w/ a mess like me?

    You’re trying to be too nice and “beta around” the issue. Just fucking tell her, nicely, that you won’t get married unless X, Y, and Z, period.

  60. @Blackdragon

    No I am usually VERY X, Y, Z on “The Talk” but I feel as if it is TOO x, y, z for most women to absorb in one night.  IDK maybe it is where I live (oklahoma) but most women out here get blurry eyed after “Y” usually lol.

    Then, if they are drinking (80% odds they are), its pointless to get too technical.  But they usually will say that I am making it too complicated or too many rules with OLTR and this and that etc.

    So, I was feeling like I was being too Beta by doing x, y, z versus being more of an aloof playboy type or gray with it, which they kinda love anyways since they REALLY don’t want us to be honest lol.

    Maybe you need to make a “Talk Variation” chart and dumb it down based on our geo location or their education level?  LMAO =))

  61. @Blackdragon

    To give you a glimpse of how dumb people are out here (I have lived in Cali and other places), I was in a Facebook singles group of about 700 people recently.  It was a “Poly and BDSM” group.

    Well, I started to notice that a lot of the memes mentioned trust and cheating so I brought up how Poly means more than 1.  I got attacked and called names and told I didn’t know what I was talking about and eventually kicked out of their stupid group lol.

    So, long story short, even the Admins of the group and majority of people didn’t know what Poly means and still could not figure it out after I explained it countless times ugh. WTF.  People are way dumber than I realized when I was in my 19 year marriage bubble lmao. Kinda sad…

  62. No I am usually VERY X, Y, Z on “The Talk” but I feel as if it is TOO x, y, z for most women to absorb in one night.

    Then those women do not qualify for OLTR, and the the OLTR Talk worked in weeding them out.

    Then, if they are drinking (80% odds they are),

    NO. No, no, no. No alcohol should be consumed by either part during the OLTR Talk. It’s way too important, and you need her reactions, not the alcohol’s reactions.

  63. @Blackdragon

    “Then those women do not qualify for OLTR, and the the OLTR Talk worked in weeding them out.”

    LMAO.  So only smart women are candidates for an OLTR?  I am screwed then.

    Oh well, they are extremely gorgeous out here though so could be worse I suppose lol. (Even NBA Star Ron Artest noticed this too: https://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/metta-world-peace-oklahoma-city-women-beautiful/135906 )

    Thanks again for your info and advice.  I can’t imagine what my life would look like if I didn’t find your stuff 4 years ago!

  64. So only smart women are candidates for an OLTR?

    No. I have no idea where you got that. Women who are easily disturbed by the fact that you are asking for non-monogamy or a separation of finances don’t qualify for OLTR. If you have to baby-down your language to not upset a woman about these topics, she does not qualify.

    I don’t think you’re understanding the point of the OLTR Talk. The point of the OLTR Talk is not to “convince” a woman to get into an OLTR with you. Not at all. Instead, it’s to make sure she qualifies and eject her ass out the exhaust port if she doesn’t.

  65. I have a friend on the East Coast who is currently nexting is OLTR of three years

    Bd,could you tell us why your friend is nexting his Oltr?(Im only wondering ,because i want to know what problems might arise in an Oltr.)

  66. @Blackdragon

    “I don’t think you’re understanding the point of the OLTR Talk. The point of the OLTRTalk is not to “convince” a woman to get into an OLTR with you. Not at all. Instead, it’s to make sure she qualifies and eject her ass out the exhaust port if she doesn’t.”

    Ok, then lets forget the OLTR just because of the State I am in that will be a challenge (Conservative, dumb but hot) but what about less x, y, x for “The Talk” and more aloof?  Mysterious…

    Actually, if I knew she will never be OLTR material, what if I NEVER had “The Talk”?  Just kept putting it off forever?  Talk about a frustration builder lmao.

     

  67. if I knew she will never be OLTR material, what if I NEVER had “The Talk”? Just kept putting it off forever? Talk about a frustration builder lmao.

    The OLTR Talk is only for high-end MLTRs who are OLTR candidates. It’s not for anyone else, not for any other FBs, MLTRs, or non-qualifying high-end MLTRs.

    99% of women I’ve been in relationships with never got The OLTR Talk, and that’s fine. They got The Talk for course, but not the The OLTR Talk (two very different things).

    If you’re talking about The Talk (not the OLTR Talk), then no, you can’t put the The Talk off forever (in the vast majority of cases). She’ll just dump you if you keep putting it off “forever.”

    Bd,could you tell us why your friend is nexting his Oltr?(Im only wondering ,because i want to know what problems might arise in an Oltr.)

    The most common reason an Alpha 2.0 would next or downgrade an OLTR: Too much regular drama from her.

  68. I’m about to downgrade a OLTR of 3 years due to honesty issues.

    Caleb, I saw you responded to this comment but didn’t address that he’s downgrading an OLTR for “honesty” issues.  I thought I once saw you say something like you don’t care if a girl you’re dating (including oltr I presume) is dishonest with you except for a few specific instances (I forget what they were, I think stealing from you was one).

  69. Caleb, I saw you responded to this comment but didn’t address that he’s downgrading an OLTR for “honesty” issues. I thought I once saw you say something like you don’t care if a girl you’re dating (including oltr I presume) is dishonest with you except for a few specific instances (I forget what they were, I think stealing from you was one).

    For me, the issue of a woman lying to me is highly contextual. For example, if an FB lies to me left and right, I don’t give a shit. Fine. If an OLTR lies to me left and right, yes, that would be a problem, but she’d have to be lying to me left and right, meaning a lot. If I caught her in a white lie every once in a while, I really wouldn’t care.

    But that’s me. Many men are very different, and consider honesty as a very black-and-white issue, that if my OLTR lies to me two or three times, she’s out, because I can’t trust her. That’s fine too. I don’t go quite that far, but I understand men who have that viewpoint.

    As always, you’re free to next, downgrade, or dump your OLTR for any reasons that make sense to you. As I said above, all of that is preferable to the beta male or oneitis-infected Alpha 1.0 who just puts up with crap from his girlfriend because he doesn’t have the balls to leave her.

  70. As always, you’re free to next, downgrade, or dump your OLTR for any reasons that make sense to you.

    I could see how this could be feelings based (how you felt after she did something). But I’d say make a list of hard and soft nextable offenses as well.

    Also, did you change your OLTR update post schedule? I could see how you could switch to every year or so, being that shit usually stays the same in a relationship once you establish a routine.

  71. Also, did you change your OLTR update post schedule?

    Not really. Nothing much has really changed since the last update. But more are definitely coming.

  72. I used to be all dramatic about them lying too and eventually I got to where I felt like their daddy or something trying to fix them.  And had a beta feel to it.

    I do think what BD says about us men controlling our emotions when they do stuff is HUGE.  I had to unlearn shit and break old habits etc.

    Now if I catch them lying, i either use it to give em a lil shit in a fun care free way or ignore it and just grin and wink maybe.

    Cuz the more I would act like I cared she lied, the more she would think I depended on her actions for my happiness.  plus they feel shamed or embarrassed you busted them or that I think she is a really bad girl and may not call back.  I prefer to have them thinking I’m the bad boy instead lol and I have more problems than them, which is why I don’t give a shit.

    Lately, it seems just acting clueless, aloof, care free, too busy, scatter brained, cocky and even flat out dumb when it comes to them lying, drama or even “the talk”, is working very well but all goes back to controlling my emotions it seems.

    I just close my eyes and imagine I’m Mads Mikkelsen in the Polar movie lol or some Alpha star and how would he act.

     

  73. If you’ve got separate finances and you accept that they may have sex with other men, then what DIFFERENCE does it make if they lie? It’s not so much a matter of acting as though you don’t care, it’s more there is nothing to care about.

    The only issue I can see is where it’s an OLTR and you’ve got an arrangement about no emotional attachment. I can see that someone might care if they find out that a woman spent a whole day hanging out with an FB, hides intimate texts and so on. I’ve got no idea how men are meant to enforce the rules about that.

  74. It’s all about how you feel.  If she is an otlr and does what you described, you will probably feel it. Does she act like a bitch, if not what do you care if she is dishonest?

    If you are cynical, which you should be, you know that humans are inherently selfish and dishonest.

    Oltr is already a losing proposition, so if you accept submitting and subjecting yourslf to this situation, you must accept that there will potentially be negative situations, and you will have to continually consider if you are willing to accept these situations.

  75. Where are all of these “so many comments?”

    This article is literally a response to a comment by your follower who feels “empty” following your lifestyle, and you obviously thought it was a sentiment that was valid or universal enough, or you would not have devoted a whole article about it.

    Correct. What is optimal for you is to demand absolute monogamy and fealty from any man you date while retaining the right to dump that poor bastard and break his heart literally whenever you feel like it for any reason you want.

    While that may be ideal for you, it’s borderline abusive for the other party (which can’t be said about a woman in an OLTR, who is free to do whatever she wants at any time with no drama from the man).

    Therefore, a more equatable arrangement is to have a relationship where both parties retain a high degree of freedom instead of just the woman (serial monogamy) or just the man (I can fuck other people but you can’t!). Neither of those models are fair, nor workable long-term, nor conducive to long-term happiness.

    Err…but OLTR relationship structure is basically the most optimal for men, it is to demand a woman to accept her man to have sex with other women (a concept that is both non-traditional and therefore emotionally humiliating for most women – as society tells women that emotional AND physical commitment from her man is a “prize” of their worth, and most women’s happiness, as you admit, is highly dependent on “SP”), while retaining the right the dump the poor girl and break her heart literally whenever you feel like it for any reason you want (which explains PF’s “fear” of you leaving her unexpectedly). I can even quote you saying this: “As always, you’re free to next, downgrade, or dump your OLTR for any reasons that make sense to you.” I’ll argue that is also borderline abusive for, not all, but most woman. “Retaining high degree of freedom” and “having no drama” is not a important part of most women’s happiness.

    As I said, I never disagreed that your structure is not optimal for men of your personality whose happiness is absolutely determined by retaining maximum degree of freedom. I am simply saying (a) not all men are like that (if you say “most” men are like that, I’ll take your word for it as I’m very very sure it’s based on scientific evidence); and (b) for most *women*, the current marriage model (with the assumption of monogamy and without a prenup) is logically and infinitely more preferable to your OLTR structure (though women, especially those in love, don’t do what is the most optimal for them so you are free to choose those women as your OLTR partner).

    As I said, I am not invalidating your business or your relationship structure that makes sense to the men who are your audience. So if you say I shouldn’t be reading or commenting on your blog as I am not your audience, you are free to do so and I’ll respect your wishes. But I disagree that your model is more “equitable” because yours is based on men’s happiness and men’s happiness alone (as you say women are *incapable* of “long term” happiness – so as a woman who is trying to search for a model that makes me “long term” happy, your materials are entertaining and insightful but ultimately useless). Most women, including myself, will reject your OLTR model (especially if you are not of objective “high value” with high income, great bedroom skills, good looks that women can objectively “benefit” from) as there already exists a relationship model (i.e. traditional marriage) that is far more optimal for women.

     

     

  76. Sabrina, I’m here to tell you that I have absolutely no doubt at all that a traditional, no prenup marriage is more optimal for women. Ask me how I know.

    I also think you’re right that the vast majority of women would prefer it and even demand it. And they won’t find a shortage of takers. Great.

    But some men won’t tolerate it and they may well find a woman who, for a variety of reasons, will accept that. So everyone can get what they want.

    Whether they will be happy with it for the long term is another question.

  77. @Incognito

    If some men find traditional marriage system unfair, want to structure a different relationship model, and try to find (or “convert”) women who will accept this model – sure, go for it. It will be hard, especially finding an OLTR (finding a FB or short term MLTR will be a lot easier, especially if you are good in bed), but go for it. clarified this stance many times.

    The only incongruency I find is how men on this blog vilify the current marriage model (or find it “abusive,” in Caleb’s words), and say the OLTR model is “better” or “more equitable” for both men and women. Nope. You are forcing the “male happiness” paradigm (lack of drama, maximum freedom) onto your woman, when you know full well it’s not remotely a important part of women’s happiness. If you say we are “abusive” in demanding a traditional marriage (or “cajoling” is a better word as no one is forcing you to get married to a woman), I retain the right to say you are “abusive” in manipulating a woman (via retaining the power of “not giving a fuck” when she leaves you while taking steps to ensure her attraction is high enough that she’ll always have a “fear” of losing you) into a OLTR marriage for years.

    TLDR: what Caleb is teaching men to manage their women life is pretty much exactly what men complain women do to them all the time. Nothing “wrong” with it, but get off your moral high horse.

  78. If some men find traditional marriage system unfair …

    Pure. Gold.

    Brilliant.

    Thank you for sharing your perspective. It provides many deep insights.

  79. @Sabrina

    Why do you think I get women to agree early on that most traditional things like a wife cooking a hot meal for me every night does not work anymore!? lol :))

    All the sudden she’s admitting she’s pretty much not traditional on many topics like child discipline or chores etc. Then, I bring up Traditional marriage and how it don’t work either cuz it’s based on controlling sex so if I ever got remarried it need to be a modern marriage.

    Then I change the topic quickly…

    If they bring it up again, I know they might be interested. If they don’t, I know they would not be interested.

    But at least I laid the foundation and SHE said she is more modern, versus traditional on just about everything EXCEPT marriage.  Hmmm. I wonder why that is?? :))

     

     

  80. @SabrinaK

    If you think that Caleb’s OLTR structure the way that he’s always taught it, is to “demand a woman to accept her man to have sex with other women” while “retaining the right to dump her at anytime”

    Then it’s very clear that you haven’t actually read Caleb’s stuff, or just skimmed through it, or don’t know or understand the structure he’s referring to.

    His OLTR structure is the complete OPPOSITE of demands. You both decide on ground rules together.  It gives HER the freedom to be with other guys within the OLTR model. And it gives HER the freedom to decide if it’s something something that she wants to pursue, after honest talk together where you lay everything on the table.

    AND it only comes many months after she’s ALREADY agreed to a non monogomous relationship at around the 3 month mark (where she was also free to decide it wasn’t for her and leave).

    For you to say that an OLTR is suddenly demanding anything means you’re both misquoting him and don’t actually know what an OLTR is.

  81. Women too are unhappy in TMM. The idea that the OLTR marriage is equally abusive to women as TMM is to men is laughable. Women are happy when they obtain a TMM, they are not happy in a TMM. Women are relatively upset by nonmongamy (and so are men anyway), they are not nearly as unhappy in nonmono arrangement with an outcome independent guy: the tradeoff of letting your man fuck other women in exchange for far, far more freedom (including of fucking other men) is vastly superior to the shitty “tradeoffs” of TMM, which ultimately lead to long term misery anyway.

    Wanna know which arrangement is abusive to women? One-way monogamy with the man screwing around. Now THAT could be argued to be symmetrical in terms of “abuse”. But then, this is less and less common as the woman does eventually cheats too. There is no such symmetry with OLTRs, not even close. OLTRs are not “a man’s heaven”, they’re very much a compromise. Is it possibly a “masculine-oriented” compromise? Probably. But you’re welcome to come up with your own model and see if it does yields better results than either. Just don’t pretend the former is symmetrically abusive to TMM. And next time you make claims about a model “making a bunch of men feel empty”, back it with statistics, not with a couple names under a post that inherently has a sample bias in favor of just that subset of men.

  82. This article is literally a response to a comment by your follower who feels “empty” following your lifestyle, and you obviously thought it was a sentiment that was valid or universal enough, or you would not have devoted a whole article about it.

    This article is about one comment from one person who was saying things similar to which I’ve heard mentioned by a subset of some of my older readers.

    But you said, and I quote, that there were “so many comments” from men who “report feeling unhappy, bitter, and empty following your advice.” I don’t see anything like that on any of my blogs, forums, or in my email. Instead, I see the exact opposite.

    When you make a major claim like that, you need to back it up with facts.

    If I’m in error and there is indeed a place somewhere where there are “so many comments from men who report feeling unhappy, bitter, and empty following my advice,” please let me know and I’d love to take a look.

    Err…but OLTR relationship structure is basically the most optimal for men, it is to demand a woman to accept her man to have sex with other women

    Utterly incorrect and the opposite of the truth. An Alpha Male 2.0 never demands anything of his OLTR, ever. I have never demanded anything of Pink Firefly now, or before we were serious. I just told her the kind of relationship I wanted, and if she wanted something similar, she could link up with me. And if she didn’t, that would be fine too.

    Alpha Male 2.0 is about never telling women what to do. That’s part of its core. Again, you are stating things that are the literal opposite of the truth in other to make your point. Without being defensive and emotional, why do you think that is?

    while retaining the right the dump the poor girl and break her heart literally whenever you feel like it for any reason you want

    And she has that right as well, without harming me, so it’s fair.

    The man in an OLTR has no rights the woman does not have. It is exactly what women have been screaming they’ve wanted for decades: 100% equality.

    Or are you saying you don’t want equality now?

    “Retaining high degree of freedom” and “having no drama” is not a important part of most women’s happiness.

    Incorrect. Freedom isn’t important to a woman? Get into a relationship with a man who bosses you around 24/7 and see how happy you are with it.

    for most *women*, the current marriage model (with the assumption of monogamy and without a prenup) is logically and infinitely more preferable to your OLTR structure

    I know, because it gives them all the power and removes it from the man. We covered that already.

    So if you say I shouldn’t be reading or commenting on your blog as I am not your audience, you are free to do so and I’ll respect your wishes.

    You can both read and comment on my blog (I love it when women comment here disagreeing with me!), but your comments need to be A) factually accurate and B) you need to back up your assertions with objective facts rather than subjective feels. So far you have not done this very well.

    I disagree that your model is more “equitable” because yours is based on men’s happiness and men’s happiness alone

    Incorrect again, because a woman in an OLTR can do literally whatever she wants and is free from an overbearing or needy husband/BF, which is one of the biggest things women in traditional relationships complain about.

    You keep using overblown language to make it look like a woman in an OLTR is living in some kind of horror show. This, again, is factually incorrect. What you’re saying is you would dislike being in a nonmono relationship (because I suspect you are a Dominant), which is perfectly fine. But you are not women. Women obtain massive benefits from these kinds of relationships. You should see the emails I get from women who love these models and/or crave them.

    If some men find traditional marriage system unfair, want to structure a different relationship model, and try to find (or “convert”) women who will accept this model – sure, go for it. It will be hard, especially finding an OLTR (finding a FB or short term MLTR will be a lot easier, especially if you are good in bed), but go for it. 

    Incorrect yet again. For years I averaged two marriage proposals per year from numerous MLTRs I was dating at the time, women who were totally cool with an OLTR marriage model. (I turned them all down because I didn’t want to be married back then.) Finding women down for this was one of the easiest things I experienced.

    Again, you’re speaking from feelings and I’m speaking from fact.

    You are forcing the “male happiness” paradigm (lack of drama, maximum freedom) onto your woman, when you know full well it’s not remotely a important part of women’s happiness.

    Again, incorrect. Women hate being in relationships where they have no freedom. And women don’t like drama (they biologically require it, but they don’t like it).

    In all seriousness, Sabrina, go stand in front of a group of your fellow women and tell them all what you’re saying here at this blog, that a woman’s freedom in a relationship doesn’t make women happy, and having a relationship with very little drama doesn’t make them happy either.

    I’d love to watch that.

  83. @Incognito

    Thanks. I am genuinely sorry about your divorce. I hope you are healing or have healed.

    @Kurt

    Your comment is too convoluted for me to understand, and if you are trying to make a point, I don’t get it. My response would be to figure all this stuff out with your lady, not with me.

  84. @Sabrina

    My point is Women seem to HATE most things that are Traditional, especially when it doesn’t benefit them ONLY.

    But they usually don’t realize they do this so I help them to see it before I bring up the marriage topic.

    Additionally, they ALWAYS tell me they fucking hate Controlling relationships too LMAO.

    You said:

    “You are forcing the “male happiness” paradigm (lack of drama, maximum freedom) onto your woman, when you know full well it’s not remotely a important part of women’s happiness.”

    Well, if they hate Traditional stuff AND Controlling relationships, how am I forcing only “male happiness” on them??   The OLTR would be just giving them what they really like – a) not being in controlling relationships and b) not doing Traditional stuff, which they hate  =)

     

  85. Correct. What is optimal for you is to demand absolute monogamy and fealty from any man you date while retaining the right to dump that poor bastard and break his heart literally whenever you feel like it for any reason you want.

    While that may be ideal for you, it’s borderline abusive for the other party (which can’t be said about a woman in an OLTR, who is free to do whatever she wants at any time with no drama from the man).

    Sabrina K, I hope you keep commenting here.  Your posts are thought provoking and it’s good to get the female perspective.  On first glance at Caleb’s quote above, I saw where you’re coming from:  if it’s “borderline abusive” for the female to be able to “demand absolute monogamy” and “retain the right to dump” a man for any reason, shouldn’t it be “borderline abusive” for a man in an OLTR to “demand” (yes, Alpha Males don’t demand anything, they simply say take it or leave it, but I’ll address that below) the ability to have sex with other women and to be able to dump the woman for any reason.

    However, I think implicit in Caleb’s comment above are a few things that he’s mentioned so many times in his past writing that it’s fair to read them into his comment above even though he didn’t spell them out in this case.  In the abusive female example, usually the man is not free, as a woman is an OLTR, to leave any time without punishment.  Often there is alimony or palimony that favors women and penalizes men when a traditionally monogamous couple breaks up.   In Caleb’s ideal OLTR relationship, if a man decides to break up with a woman even for a frivolous reason, she would not have any financial or otherwise obligations to him.  This is a crucial difference.

    With regards to his choice of the word “demand,” let’s think about what that means.  Anyone can make a demand, but its implication depends greatly on the enforcement of compliance.   I can demand that you give me a million dollars, but unless I have a way to make you do so, it’s meaningless.   You could say a man in an OLTR “demands” that his OLTR allows him to sleep with other women.  Ok, sure in the broad sense of the word in that if his demand is not met, he will end the relationship.  But the enforcement of compliance stops there.  As a rule, an Alpha Male 2.0 is not coercing compliance with his “demand” either with verbal or physical abuse from himself or indirectly through the government.  In the case of a female “demanding” monogamy, the repercussions are not simply that she can end the relationship, but also, per above, that she can get the state to coerce the man into paying financial penalties.   And verbal abuse is often inflicted as well (even in cases where the man has never made any promises of monogamy such as early in relationship).   So demand really means two different things in each case.  TLDR, in today’s society and system of government, when a female demands monogamy there is often coercion involved, but when an Alpha Male 2.0 “demands” something, there is never any coercion involved.

     

  86. @BlackDragon

    If I’m in error and there is indeed a place somewhere where there are “so many comments from men who report feeling unhappy, bitter, and empty following my advice,” please let me know and I’d love to take a look.

    I probably should not have said “so many comments from men who report feeling unhappy, bitter, and empty following your advice”, I should have said “the men who report feeling empty following your advice”. Then my point still stands.

    Utterly incorrect and the opposite of the truth. An Alpha Male 2.0 never demands anything of his OLTR, ever.

    Agreed again. I should have used the word “cajole,” not “demand”. (I think I corrected myself in one of my comments). I am in 100% agreement with you on this, by the way, for both men and women. I yell at my female friends who waste their eligible years demanding or trying to change their men’s minds about committing to them – they should simply say “what you want is not what I want” and walk away. They should keep doing this until they meet a guy who will commit to them willingly – and women who are of reasonable attractiveness will have no issues finding a man who are willing to commit to them body and mind. Simply because the majority of men *are* willing to, or even looking to, “settle down” with a woman and promise sexual monogamy.

    You keep using overblown language to make it look like a woman in an OLTR is living in some kind of horror show. This, again, is factually incorrect. What you’re saying is you would dislike being in a nonmono relationship (because I suspect you are a Dominant), which is perfectly fine. But you are not women. Women obtain massive benefits from these kinds of relationships. You should see the emails I get from women who love these models and/or crave them.

    What overblown language are you talking about? You are the one who said a traditional marriage model was “abusive”. My reply was in response to you saying a traditional marriage model was “abusive” and that OLTR relationship was “more equitable”. I said again and again if you can find a woman, for some reason or what not, who go for this model, go for it. My point was that traditional marriage model is more optimal for *most* women, and your OLTR model is more optimal for men who share your worldview (who I do not think is “most”, but as I said, I won’t contest this point). I am not a big fan of categorizing people but I probably am a Dominant. I am not *women*, but my type, according to your article, represents the majority of women (60 – 65%). So I am correct in saying most women will not derive happiness from OLTR relationship. Capice?

    You are the one often making it sound like men in traditional marriage system is living in some kind of horror show. My point is, there are many men out there who love getting married, as there are women who “love your OLTR models and crave them.” I found a man who want the traditional marriage and I am happy. I choose boredom over attraction any day for pair bonding. My parents (and my boyfriend’s parents) are still married, and they are both still happy, so we have a two living proof of traditional marriage model that has worked non-stop for 20-30 years. You found Pink Firefly who says she’s happier in a OLTR relationship with you than a traditional marriage with other men, and you can be happy with her. And I hope you cherish her: Pink Firefly is within a special subset of women who can be happy with this model, and not the norm.

    Incorrect yet again. For years I averaged two marriage proposals per year from numerous MLTRs I was dating at the time, women who were totally cool with an OLTR marriage model. (I turned them all down because I didn’t want to be married back then.) Finding women down for this was one of the easiest things I experienced.

    Again, you’re speaking from feelings and I’m speaking from fact.

    What “feelings” are you talking about? You admit “Dominants” (or majority of women) do not go for OLTR relationships, so statistically of course it will be *hard* for men to structure a non-traditional relationship model that the majority of the women will not go for (and even for small subset of women who do, require exact step-by-step method to make it work). And you don’t just want your woman to be okay with your OLTR model, I expect you want her to be hot, not married/attached to other men, and reasonably smart to at least have a conversation with (I can’t imagine you to pair bond with a dumb woman). Your experience is empirical, and therefore, not a “fact”. The fact that *you* found your OLTR easily does not mean other men can do so easily.

    I said it will be hard. I did not say it was impossible. I did not say men should not pursue this model. Most things in life that is going to make you happy is not easy.

    Again, incorrect. Women hate being in relationships where they have no freedom. And women don’t like drama (they biologically require it, but they don’t like it).

    In all seriousness, Sabrina, go stand in front of a group of your fellow women and tell them all what you’re saying here at this blog, that a woman’s freedom in a relationship doesn’t make women happy, and having a relationship with very little drama doesn’t make them happy either.

    I’d love to watch that.

    When did I ever say “a woman’s freedom in a relationship doesn’t make women happy, and having a relationship with very little drama doesn’t make them happy either”? You are the one who are using overblown language to win an argument.

    What I said was optimizing for lack of drama and maximum freedom is *not* a core of women’s happiness, and I stand by that. Even by your worldview and articles (https://blackdragonblog.com/2012/03/25/drama-tolerance/),  a whopping 85% of women are “drama likers” or “drama queens” – women are perfectly happy (and yes, “long term” happy) having a bit of drama in their lives. My boyfriend yells at me sometimes, I yell at him sometimes – it’s never too bad and we are always respectful, so we just fight (2 hours max), reach compromise, and move on with our lives. I do not want to fear my husband to leave me just because I “cause drama” sometimes. Having *no* freedom of course is bad for all humanity, but many women are completely ok with having some restrictions in their lives coming from their family (partners and kids), as long as they can restrict some behaviors from their partners and kids. Look. I don’t have a model for female long term happiness – if I did, I’ll have a blog of my own I can profit from  – all I know is it is *not* minimizing “drama” and maximizing “freedom”.

     

  87. Holy shit this stuff is just too funny, not to mention the irony is just rich as fuck.

    As I am reading this blog, a lady posts a meme in a Facebook singles group that says:

    “Men, if you can’t control your woman, you found a really good one.”

    It received 230 likes already, mostly from Women.

    So, I edit it and change the Men = Women (reverse it) and re-post it and the hate speech and attacks are already coming in.  Perfect example of the double standard and confusion on the Controlling issue!

     

  88. Thanks. I am genuinely sorry about your divorce. I hope you are healing or have healed.

    Thanks! Never felt better. I feel ten years younger than I did ten years ago, happier, richer, more to look forward to. Divorce and withdrawal from TMM is a challenging, difficult, and expensive growth process from which I learned an immense amount. No bitterness, no blame.

  89. @Farley99

    TLDR, in today’s society and system of government, when a female demands monogamy there is often coercion involved, but when an Alpha Male 2.0 “demands” something, there is never any coercion involved.

    This is a very good point. When I was saying “demand”, I meant it purely within a man-woman relationship, and I agree governmental regulations and societal pressure, etc. actually put the word “demand” in a new perspective.

     

  90. @Kurt

    Double standards are everywhere, for both men *and* women. Both women and men suck. Accept it and find a way to be happy despite it.

  91. @SabrinaK

    Ditto and you first! =))

    So….do you believe that a woman that I cannot control is a Keeper like the popular Meme says?

    If not, do you believe that a Woman that I can control is a Keeper?

     

  92. @SabrinaK

    Also, weren’t you basically saying that BD stuff is kinda teaching men to have a Double standard in regards to the OLTR??

    Finally, have you considered replacing your favorite word “Committing” with “Submitting” to see how it reads or sounds?  Because that is essentially what you are saying.  here, like this…..

    “…..SUBMITTING to them – they should simply say “what you want is not what I want” and walk away. They should keep doing this until they meet a guy who will SUBMIT to them willingly – and women who are of reasonable attractiveness will have no issues finding a man who are willing to SUBMIT to them body and mind…”

    With that, I am curious – when did you first realize that you prefer Beta guys over Alpha guys? =))

     

  93. @Antekirtt

    Women too are unhappy in TMM. The idea that the OLTR marriage is equally abusive to women as TMM is to men is laughable. Women are happy when they obtain a TMM, they are not happy in a TMM. Women are relatively upset by nonmongamy (and so are men anyway), they are not nearly as unhappy in nonmono arrangement with an outcome independent guy: the tradeoff of letting your man fuck other women in exchange for far, far more freedom (including of fucking other men) is vastly superior to the shitty “tradeoffs” of TMM, which ultimately lead to long term misery anyway.

    The main drawback of OLTR relationship with “Alpha 2.0”, at least for me (and majority of women), is that there is no perception of “security”. Remember men and women are innately different – if men are biologically programmed to want sexual variety, women are biologically programmed to want security from the father of her baby. No woman wants to feel the man she loves who fathered her child can walk away from her without any repercussions whatsoever.

    Freedom? Sure, I want some degree of freedom. But I’d rather not fuck other men for the rest of my life than to live in constant fear my husband can leave me if I throw too much “drama” at him, or have to emotionally deal with the fact my husband actually thinks he will “bounce back” emotionally if I disappear from his life. I cannot imagine being in that state of fear and sadness for the rest of my life. Besides, women want maximum *attentions*, not maximum sexual variety – and if I am in an OLTR, my husband gets all the sexual variety he wants but I am forbidden to get emotional attentions from other men (as we are “emotionally exclusive”).

    Wanna know which arrangement is abusive to women? One-way monogamy with the man screwing around. Now THAT could be argued to be symmetrical in terms of “abuse”. But then, this is less and less common as the woman does eventually cheats too. There is no such symmetry with OLTRs, not even close. OLTRs are not “a man’s heaven”, they’re very much a compromise. Is it possibly a “masculine-oriented” compromise? Probably. But you’re welcome to come up with your own model and see if it does yields better results than either. Just don’t pretend the former is symmetrically abusive to TMM.

    You guys all gotta read carefully. I never said OLTR relationship was abusive. My comment was “if you call TMM abusive for men, OLTR is also abusive for women.” In reality, I think neither TMM and OLTR models are “abusive”, I simply think both systems let *some* people abuse the other party.

    I have no reason to come up with my own model. Traditional marriage works just fine for me and I plan to be happy in it, as I know it works via my parents (and his), and I also found a man who values emotional commitment as highly as I do. Also worth noting that while I am educated in the states for college and grad school, I am originally from Asia where “family values” (and unfortunately, “slut shaming”) are more ingrained, and my boyfriend is mixed, but is also family-oriented. My father hell does not think getting married to my mother was “abusive,” if anything, even if they had their minor up and downs, he is happy he has a wonderful woman by his side who has so much shared history together and he still loves my mother very much, as does my mother. TMM makes a man very difficult to leave the woman, and as a woman, I actually am happy with this, and I plan to give the commitment back (unless in very unlikely case of physical abuse, etc.) so I do not see how my future TMM will be “abusive”. There are abusive people, not abusive relationship models.

    And next time you make claims about a model “making a bunch of men feel empty”, back it with statistics, not with a couple names under a post that inherently has a sample bias in favor of just that subset of men.

    I corrected myself. Jesus, didn’t know people would be so upset at my saying “so many men” instead of just “some men” when this whole article is about addressing that “empty feeling”. My point still stands.

  94. @Marty McFly

    Never argue with a woman. Should be common sense.

    The innate contempt of women in that statement aside, I never wanted to “argue”! I just posited my opinion and had no idea I would antagonize so many…but I guess I should have known knowing the audience of the blog. And I genuinely think I am being respectful of everyone’s comments, admit when I get new insights/ I am wrong, and giving logical opinions and my own perspective on men-women relationships. Not sure what is wrong with this, other than the fact it really is a time drainer for myself (but entertaining nontheless)!

    @Kurt

    Also, weren’t you basically saying that BD stuff is kinda teaching men to have a Double standard in regards to the OLTR??

    Please point to my comment where I said that. I never even mentioned the phrase “double standards” before I replied to you.

    Finally, have you considered replacing your favorite word “Committing” with “Submitting” to see how it reads or sounds? Because that is essentially what you are saying. here, like this…..

    “…..SUBMITTING to them – they should simply say “what you want is not what I want” and walk away. They should keep doing this until they meet a guy who will SUBMIT to them willingly – and women who are of reasonable attractiveness will have no issues finding a man who are willing to SUBMIT to them body and mind…”

    My favorite word is not “commiting”. and I do not mean “submitting” because the men in that particular example is absolutely free to walk away if a relationship is not what they want. I am telling my female friends to walk away from a man if the man is not giving the woman what she wants (monogamy and “official” bf-gf status), as Caleb is telling his male followers to walk away from the woman if the woman is not giving the man what he wants (sex and the ability to sleep with other women).

    Guys – I know this is a non-mono blog and the obviously the men here are self-selected subset group, but *men* often desire sexual monogamy more often than women, as men have strong desire to not let “his woman” sleep with other men. The majority of men are indeed jealous and territorial with their women. The concept of sexual monogamy is not some idea women made up to torture men.

     

  95. @Kurt

    So….do you believe that a woman that I cannot control is a Keeper like the popular Meme says?

    If not, do you believe that a Woman that I can control is a Keeper?

    I don’t see the relevance of this question. I don’t have opinions on every single stupid meme about men and women out there.

    With that, I am curious – when did you first realize that you prefer Beta guys over Alpha guys? =))

    I know Caleb has a whole article about this, but I don’t think this “beta” “alpha” thing is binary, as nothing in real life is (unless you live in a computer). It’s a spectrum. But if I have to pick my type it would be a “cool beta.”

  96. @SabrinaK

    LMFAO – A “Cool Beta” is just your renaming of what BD calls an “Alpha-Beta”!

    Oh man you crack me up.  I need a drink on that note….

    Happy hunting =)

  97. @Kurt

    Caleb himself used the term “cool beta” to refer to his friends/acquaintances. That “cool beta” is what I mean.

    You actually have issues holding down a respectful, logical argument, hon…

  98. @SabrinaK

    I sincerely thank you for keeping a cool head and defending your points without actually insulting anybody. You’re one of the few women I’ve seen doing this on this blog; kudos to you. That being said:

    The main drawback of OLTR relationship with “Alpha 2.0”, at least for me (and majority of women), is that there is no perception of “security”. Remember men and women are innately different – if men are biologically programmed to want sexual variety, women are biologically programmed to want security from the father of her baby.

    While I do agree that that women are programmed to want security, human beings in general are programmed to pair bond for a while (not forever). That being the case, it is extremely naive to get into a relationship arrangement counting that it lasts forever. The OLTR arrangement does give women security, just not as much as the TMM route (in exchange for less security, women get a whole lot other benefits from an OLTR arrangement).

    No woman wants to feel the man she loves who fathered her child can walk away from her without any repercussions whatsoever.

    So, what a woman wants to feel is that a man she’s with, in order to terminate the relationship, has to face many repercussions? That, in my opinion, is the exact opposite of true love, since in such an arrangement, you’d never actually be sure if the man you’re married to stays with you because he actually loves you, or because he’s in fear of getting divorce raped (in case he leaves you). If you don’t believe me, just reverse the roles: think about all of those women that, before women’s right activism, couldn’t walk away from their abusive husbands, because of all the repercussions they would face if they did. How happy do you think they were to be in such a situation?

    The ability to terminate the relationship without repercussions to either party is actually one of the benefits of an OLTR, since it reduces the chances of either you or your husband getting complacent with the other, whereas a TMM actually encourages such behavior (which in my opinion is very damaging for any healthy relationship).

    Freedom? Sure, I want some degree of freedom. But I’d rather not fuck other men for the rest of my life than to live in constant fear my husband can leave me if I throw too much “drama” at him, or have to emotionally deal with the fact my husband actually thinks he will “bounce back” emotionally if I disappear from his life. I cannot imagine being in that state of fear and sadness for the rest of my life.

    That is not how an OLTR works; it’s just how you think it works. The woman does not live in “constant fear”.  If it was that way, women in OLTRs wouldn’t even last six months;they would just dump the guy (remember that women initiate more than 80% of divorces). And the ability to actually bounce back in case a relationship fails is a sign of emotional strength and maturity, not something to be scared of.

    Besides, women want maximum *attentions*, not maximum sexual variety – and if I am in an OLTR, my husband gets all the sexual variety he wants but I am forbidden to get emotional attentions from other men (as we are “emotionally exclusive”).

    While it is true that women don’t need as much sexual variety as men, they still need some (as a general rule). That means that, if the marriage lasts long enough, both your husband and yourself will feel the need to fuck somebody else. Then you will either cheat, get caught and have lots of drama (and possibly a divorce) or you’ll remain faithful and then get extremely frustrated at the fact that you cannot satisfy one of your most basic biological urges.

    You guys all gotta read carefully. I never said OLTR relationship was abusive. My comment was “if you call TMM abusive for men, OLTR is also abusive for women.” In reality, I think neither TMM and OLTR models are “abusive”, I simply think both systems let *some* people abuse the other party.

    Hm, that one made me think. You got a fair point, but I still lean towards TMM being abusive towards men, since robs them of their freedom (but that is just an opinion).

    I have no reason to come up with my own model. Traditional marriage works just fine for me and I plan to be happy in it, as I know it works via my parents (and his), and I also found a man who values emotional commitment as highly as I do..

    This right here makes me think that the issue with you and TMM isn’t whether it works or not, but that you want it to work, and that your arguments are coming from an emotional place, not a logical one (similar to very religious people who *want* God to exist, instead of actually analyzing it in a logical way). Here in this blog it has been stated over and over that TMM can actually work for some very specific personality types; but that is the exception, not the rule (and remember, the exception proves the rule). I think neither of us will convince the other, so let’s just agree to disagree. But remember, the odds are way against you, in that you’ll probably experience massive amounts of drama in your relationship, get divorced and experience a lot of unhapiness down the road. That being said, I sincerely hope you have a happy marriage. Please keep commenting on this blog, it has been lots of fun.

    PS if you do end up getting divorced down the road, would you mind giving us a heads up? I’d like to see how much your perspective on OLTRs changes after such an event 🙂

     

  99. Never argue with a woman. Should be common sense.

    QFT

    Then it’s very clear that you haven’t actually read Caleb’s stuff, or just skimmed through it, or don’t know or understand the structure he’s referring to.

    Trust me, she knows and understands Caleb’s stuff. She just doesn’t like it. Thousands of words just to say I don’t agree with you, and I secretly hope no one else does either. That’s like me going on a tree huggers forum, and saying that I don’t care about the environment. Why would I do that?

    The amount of shaming here is very predictable.

    OLTR is abusive and humiliating.

    This is insulting towards PF, but it’s BD’s blog, and he probably derives more value from your deluded and continued posts. More women would be okay with oltr if it not for telling women it is humiliating.

    TMM is more humiliating towards men. Getting down on one knee; paying three months salary for a worthless piece of glass/metal; signing a lopsided contract?

    OLTR is hard to find.

    Yes, every guy should give up, and accept monogamy, less they  suffer the fate of dying alone. :face palm:

    Just another woman, afraid of a beta male uprising, which will never happen. Every woman has that fear that men will suddenly wake up and realize that women have no power. Only the one that is given to them. Even Allen Roger Currie, a red pill man, is also misguided, with his book The Beta Male Revolution. Betas and the women who enable them are comfortable AF. That will never end.

  100. Sabrina – In your last comment to me you corrected several of your initial statements. Thank you. The rest of the comment was you repeating items you’ve already said and I’ve already addressed. If you have any new points that aren’t repeats (You: “Most women won’t be happy with X!” Me: “I know. I already said women won’t be happy with anything.”), then just let me know.

    And several years from now you will be posting on this very blog about how you divorced the guy you are now getting ready to monogamously marry, and how I was right, but how you don’t care and are “optimistic” because you got your alimony/child support and are now onto the Next Guy™ who is Much Better™.

    This is exactly what happened before with other women here saying the same exact things as you (Lovergirl, MalibuMom, SuperSlavisWife, etc) and it will happen to you.

    Not that you care. Your future husband is the one who will take the damage. You’ll be just fine.

    To everyone else reading: I hope you pay very close attention to everything SabrinaK has said here. As I’ve said before, the comments of women defending traditional monogamous relationships here are more valuable than anything I could say or demonstrate.

  101. @Felix

    Thanks for your comments. I actually realize now my defense of TMM is at least subconsciously based on my hope that it will work. It’s a crude statistic but they say here that 50% of marriages will end up in divorce or separation in the United States, it’s a lot lower in my country. So I’ll probably be right that at least 35-40% of marriages survive. That’s a gamble I’m willing to bet. (https://www.wf-lawyers.com/divorce-statistics-and-facts/)

    The issue with OLTR for me, as I stated, is actually not the fact my husband sleeps with other girls. That itself is fine. It is the lack of perceived stability or security that makes me (and most women) prefer a TMM model over a OLTR model, especially when children are involved.

    @Duke

    Again, I never said OLTR is abusive and humiliating. Read my comments again. I did say society tells women that letting their men sleep with other women is humiliating (by the way, society also tells men it’s humiliating – why do you think the term “cuckold” is an insult?) Also, when I said OLTR is hard to find, I never implied men should not pursue it. I said go for it, but it will be hard. If you want to attack me, please learn to read my comments better.

    Just another woman, afraid of a beta male uprising, which will never happen. Every woman has that fear that men will suddenly wake up and realize that women have no power.

    I do not have this fear. I promise you not *every woman* has that fear – most women don’t even think about this stuff, they are too engrossed in their own boy dramas and life dramas to actually think of men vs. women dynamic (except for the very extreme feminist types). You clearly feel a need to shame me (or think the amount of shaming me on this blog is valid – which I frankly did not think was that much) because I disagree with your worldview and think the OLTR model is a viable model for most (but not all – clearly Pink Firefly is an exception) women.

    I never said Pink Firefly should not be in a relationship with Caleb, if anything, I wished them a long happy marriage, and I was definitely not being sarcastic. It is possible to disagree on a concept without hating on the actual person who disagrees with you – path to a happy life in my experience.

    That’s like me going on a tree huggers forum, and saying that I don’t care about the environment. Why would I do that?

    I absolutely agree I am doing that. This is why I said to Caleb early on that if he does not want me commenting, he is free to ban me. He said it was ok, I know he is indirectly profiting from more traffic (hopefully) and I actually even had several people who told me I should keep on commenting. So I guess that’s my excuse.

    I enjoy having debates with men about men-women relationships, especially anonymously. There are not that many sites that allows for a good discussion. I find women-centric sites too whiny/dramatic and find men-centric sites mostly too hateful of women. I don’t agree with Caleb’s teachings (and don’t think it’s optimal for me and for *most* women) but I still respect his insights and his worldview (and I definitely thank some of you for providing insightful comments).

    So the simple answer to your question why I’m commenting is because it’s fun, and when people argue against my view I like to defend my views. But it’s also quite draining so I only do it sporadically (this is the second/third post I’ve ever commented on).

  102. @Sabrinak

    So, say I was having the OLTR talk w you and you mentioned you need security.  Which is your problem w it.

    Then say I removed the prenup requirement.  Would that be enough to provide you security in an OLTR marriage?

    If not, what would you change in order to get that security?

     

  103. I don’t agree with Caleb’s teachings

    Most of his teachings are sound.  Most men are not happy.  I haven’t met many happy men in my life.  Men just follow down the path of their fathers and their fathers before them without really giving it a second though.  It’s just what men do.  I’m surrounded by, upper middle class to upper class men and I don’t know very many happy ones, overall.  Sure they have their moments here and there when out on the golf course, or watching their kids play sports.  They all cheat, or want to cheat but can’t, get cheated on, or want to divorce but lack the balls.  They’re buried in debt, have kids that cause them constant problems, live every day trying to impress their social circle, work a million hours in the process, and end up giving up their passions to pay to live in a good school district for their kids, get that Tahoe for their wives to drive the kids around, and keep up with their social circle.  They consider mowing the lawn one of their greatest joys in life because they get to throw their headphones on, drink a beer and not have to listen to screaming kids.  It’s a pathetic life.  Then once they’ve got all fat and comfortable their wife decides (unless shes also fat and disgusting and worse stays) her man doesn’t respect and love her anymore and finds another guy.

    Sure it starts out fun and full of promise at around your age.  But I hate to break it to you but from middle class on up it isn’t 50% divorce rate.  It’s a lot higher than that.  I am speaking from 49 years old and backwards.  I’m looking at from first hand account.  Not hopes and dreams and some misguided fantasy that it will be different for me.  I’m speaking from having been where you are to seeing where it actually ends.  Alllll my friends and neighbors had that happy beginning.  Get married – happy, Have that first kid or 2 – happy.  Get that new house in the burbs – happy.  Kid starts playing t-ball – happy.  Meet new friends with kids your kids age – happy.  Block parties – happy.  Then shit goes down hill.  I can’t speak for any other segment but my own, white american middle to upper middle calls, but that is exactly how things end up the majority of the time.  I would have to sit down and think really hard to find the exceptions.  When I told my kid I was getting a divorce he shrugged his shoulders and said “All my friends parents are divorced or are divorcing” so it wasn’t a problem for him.

    Caleb is like anyone else out there who gives advice.  You take about 30-50% and throw out the rest.  You cherry pick what applies to you, works for you and throw out the rest or come back to it later when it works for you.  Like MTLR thing.  Doesn’t work for me right now.  Nor does having a bunch of fuck buddies.  I’m too old for that shit.  But because I follow a lot of his other advice I literally have women begging me to fuck them silly.  From 24 years old up to 48.  Calling and texting for me to come fuck them.  Stalking me and harassing me.  I want my dick played with I get my dick played with.  I don’t beg or plead.  I literally don’t have enough time or energy for as many women Caleb has.

    So yeah If a man follows half of what Caleb teaches they will be happy.  No if and or butts.  That’s a fact. I happy as fuck and it has a quite a bit to do with things I picked up from here.

  104. @John

    Damn man what a great post!  Very true.

    I joked to a lady other day that the ONLY way a TMM might be worth it today at my age (43) is if she had a GF too and all 3 of us were married or living together.  lol (I understand that it would not really be mono or traditional anyways if we did that but was just a joke to see her reaction)

    Then she texted back, “well I did used to have a GF and Lesbian porn is my favorite”. LMAO

    Ahhhh…..the joys of not being Traditionally Mono Married or asked why the grass is so high is so refreshing and fun once you adjust to it lol =))

     

     

     

  105. You clearly feel a need to shame me (or think the amount of shaming me on this blog is valid

    If you want to attack me

    You are being sensitive. Nobody is trying to shame you or attack you. Maybe I attempted to mock you and your belief system, because maybe I think you are being a bit silly speaking about monogamy and other ideas that are not shared by the readership of this blog.

    when I said OLTR is hard to find, I never implied men should not pursue it. I said go for it, but it will be hard.

    And this is what you don’t get. Oltr are not at all hard to find. The two main issues behind settling with an oltr is:

    a) we may find a oltr candidate, but we are not ready to settle down yet, and

    b) the women who would be down for oltr with us do not qualify to our standards.

    BD explains it: I’ve often discussed the requirements a woman must have for a long-term, serious OLTR relationship, such as low drama, reasonably low jealousy, sex positivity, a long track record of dating you before she ever becomes an OLTR with near-zero problems, and so on.

    Here is the mindset that man has to have himself: https://blackdragonblog.com/2017/11/30/requirements-oltr-apply/

    OLTR model is a viable model for most (but not all – clearly Pink Firefly is an exception) women.

    I assume you meant to put *not* in there. This not viable model thing you have going is all in your head. Attractive women are attracted to men that are not submissive, so of course they would rather share an (non-submissive) attractive man with other women than have a submissive one all to themselves. The women who are attracted to beta men, are women that are unattractive themselves.

    Of the remaining women that are attractive there are primarily three categories: Women like you (I assume you are decent looking but could be wrong) who prefer these men that do what you say, and remain faithful to them (serial monogamists); women who keep going back and forth when they get tired of a man who “won’t commit” and conversely get bored of the man who does commit, sometimes seeing both simultaneously; and women that only go for the “jerks” when they are young, but then settle for a submissive man when they lose their looks.

    All those women that you yell at, which you call your friends, prefer non-submissive men. You are trying to talk sense into them, but they don’t listen. They don’t share you preferences. All of these women are potential oltr candidates that you claim are “hard” to find. Like I said all in your head.

  106. @John @BlackDragon

    I actually agree with all/most your points. If you read through the comments and if you have high enough IQ, you would see people attacked me for things I never said. I accept many men (probably not many women) have benefitted from Caleb’s blog, and I think that’s great.

    I will ignore all your points about “you are 26 and you are just naive, xxx will happen to you” – look, you’re not a fortune teller. You can say there’s a high probability xxx will happen to you, but not xxx will happen to you. I am not an average white middle class American living in the suburbs (I have lived in more than 6 countries) and that’s the last thing I want to be.

    Two main disagreements I have in this blog is:

    1. Saying OLTR is a “superior” model to TMM for both men *and* women. Nope. I don’t want “equality” – I never ever said that’s what I wanted. I want what is optimal for me, as you all want what is optimal for you. TMM is more optimal for me (and for most women).

    2. Saying women’s long term happiness should not be taken into account in relationship management (or saying we should be ok with following along with men’s optimal happiness) because we won’t be happy no matter what. I don’t think this is correct – as “happiness” is subjective, this statement is Caleb’s opinion, not a “fact”.

     

  107. For some reason it feels to me like somewhere in the back and forth comments here we’ve lost some sense of what an OLTR is?

    If I’m reading a lot of these comments correctly, it feels like Sabrina was consistently implying that any woman that would continue seeing or dating a man in a non monogomous setting is basically an OLTR, which it’s not.

    If a woman has already agreed to this, then you proposing an OLTR down the line (assuming you like her enough) is what she would ideally want MORE if she’s already seeing you, with only FB‘s for the both of you, and an extra sense of “officialness” for her.

    @Kurt for example you said if you’re having an OLTR talk and a woman says “she needs security”. The OLTR talk would be 6-12 months or so down the line after she’s already been in a non monogomous relationship with you for a while. If you’re deciding to have an OLTR talk with her it’s because you want to make things even MORE exclusive and this would give her even MORE security than before (just not 100%monogomy). It almost sounds like you’re talking about “the talk” and not the OLTR talk. Making sure I’m not missing anything.

    Just want to make sure we don’t lose clarity here over what we’re talking about because these are some good discussions.

     

     

  108. @Sabrinak … if you said what you’re saying 15+ years ago it would ring a bit more true. But I don’t actually think you realize, just how many women nowadays have either tried an open relationship, have a friend that’s done or doing it, or themselves proposed to “open” up their relationship with their current guy.

    I’ve personally met women that have asked their husbands (not the other way around) to open up their marriage (and I’m talking marriages, same applies to regular relationships), and I’ve been with a couple women like this. Nothing new. This is happening all the time…if what you’re saying is true, this stuff wouldn’t be happening #1 and #2, when it does, it would be the guy that’s suggesting it all the time.

    And many of these women were married 5-10 years before this suggestion took place … Meaning these aren’t the kind of women that were “already” into this stuff and not some kind of “unicorn” that don’t like regular exclusive relationships like the women you’re supposedly talking about. Times are changing and I don’t think you acknowledge that … I think faster than we give credit to and Caleb has mentioned noticing this trend as well.

  109. I’m surrounded by, upper middle class to upper class men and I don’t know very many happy ones, overall.

    Being middle to upper class sounds like a nightmare. But, these are the men that keep the American economy chugging along. God bless them.

  110. I will ignore all your points about “you are 26 and you are just naive, xxx will happen to you” – look, you’re not a fortune teller.

    “I actually realize now my defense of TMM is at least subconsciously based on my hope that it will work.”

    Then I responded without quoting you.

    I’m looking at from first hand account.  Not hopes and dreams and some misguided fantasy that it will be different for me.

    No fortune telling there or anywhere else.  Just pointing out the facts, based upon what you said, that you are basing things on a “hope” that it will different for you.  Didn’t know how old you where, just used my “high IQ” to come up with a ball park after reading about 2-3 of your posts.  But it’s all good.

  111. @Eugene

    So the official “OLTR” has only occurred with 2 women to date out of a 5 year dating period.  I may have dated or slept with 50+ idk not really counted it.

    One lady I saw for 1.5 years and have known her almost 3 years now.  She has boomeranged 3-4 times but getting ugly now unfortunately. (as it seems almost 80% that leave me get fat, cut hair short and then when they come back, I can’t get a boner to save my life lol) ugh.

    The 2nd one I had this OLTR convo with I have known for 8 months and we just talked about some of it recently.  She hasn’t spoken to me in about 2 weeks now since then.  I did tell her to not cut her hair or get fat though LMAO =))

    I have had “the talk” with many many I am not even sure the # really.

    Now, it does seem like lately, I have ran into some that are very liberal and open minded and so just for shits and giggles I will just throw it (talk, oltr or a combo of both) out their to see how they respond. More so if they are attractive but not super attractive so it really didn’t matter as much what they did.  I have been a lil surprised at how often this has worked.  Almost like gets to the point and they KNOW early on, I am not as dumb as I look so they just open up and know I am not a candidate for their TMM scam LMAO =)     I swear they are putting me in their FB or FWB pile and thinking to themselves, “he will be a nice fuck while I am searching for a dumb ass to TMM marry me…” =))

  112. @Eugene, I get the feeling that she has not been in an ltr past the three year mark. This may explain most of her views. But when she does she will probably rationalize it as “relationships take work” or something like that.

    Notice how she never responds or acknowledges when BD tells her that she could just dump her boyfriend when she gets bored. It’s like she doesn’t get how much of an advantage that is. She’s probably like so? She also doesn’t acknowledge that TMM is a bad deal for men, only that it benefits her and other women. How could you respect someone that takes a bad deal like that?

    BD talking about long term happiness just goes over her and most people’s head. Why would anyone worry about being happy 5-10 plus years down the line. You always hear that nobody thinks about divorce when you get married like it’s a good thing. Well you know what dumb ass, you probably should.

    And yes there are many women who want, or are willing to tolerate open relationships, but don’t feel comfortable expressing this. Really looking forward to how relationships look in the future.

  113. I don’t want “equality” – I never ever said that’s what I wanted. I want what is optimal for me

    There it is, the crux of what she’s saying. The rest is just hamster wheel spinning.

    Hey, at least she’s being honest.

  114. Hmm. All your comments make me think.

    I think what I am saying is TMM, OLTR, any form of man-woman relationship is not inherently “abusive”. I am a woman pledging (and yes, hoping) I won’t ever abuse the system/the other party, and given that I am not the other party, want some assurance that things will be fine even if he abuses the system. You guys are pledging you won’t ever abuse the OLTR system (to break someone’s heart), and want assurance that things will be fine even if she abuses the system.

    You can’t tell me I am “delusional” – I simply want to pair bond with a man I have long time potential with, within a system (TMM) that gives me a sense of security that even if he leaves me, I will be fine. That is exactly what you all want from your relationship lives – the difference is many of you have experiences where the other party abused/betrayed your trust, and I have not. I also agree with many of you that there are many women *and* men who suck and abuse others’ good will.

    @Eugene

    Interesting things are changing. My surroundings are completely different from yours (mostly Asian/Jewish community at an Ivy League/investment banks) and my views are colored via my surroundings as yours are.

     

     

  115. @Duke

    I get the feeling that she has not been in an ltr past the three year mark. This may explain most of her views.

    Correct. I started being sexually active at 20 (I grew up in a society with actually very troubling slut shaming culture – I can bitch about this for days, but I don’t, as I can’t change how people feel about their sexuality), and have been traveling too much in my adult life and was never at a single city/country for more than 4 years since. Doesn’t invalidate my views, but take my views with a grain of salt (as many of you who like dating younger women, so my viewpoint is not useless to you).

    Notice how she never responds or acknowledges when BD tells her that she could just dump her boyfriend when she gets bored. It’s like she doesn’t get how much of an advantage that is. She’s probably like so? She also doesn’t acknowledge that TMM is a bad deal for men, only that it benefits her and other women. How could you respect someone that takes a bad deal like that?

    Err. I can dump my boyfriend when I get bored, my boyfriend can do the same. I will be hurt, but I’ll get over it. I won’t dump my husband when I get bored, and I hope my husband does not as well. Especially if my husband is a father of my children – my “boredom” isn’t enough to cause my children harm (but of course, physical abuse/illegal activities would be a different story, but if that happens, I fucked up by choosing a wrong man), and I am responsible for those bastards until they become 18, I hope my husband shares the same view.

    I respect and love a man who gets into TMM with me. OLTR is a bad deal for women compared to TMM, and TMM is a *societal norm*. As a man, how could you respect a woman that takes a bad deal like that?

    And yes there are many women who want, or are willing to tolerate open relationships, but don’t feel comfortable expressing this. Really looking forward to how relationships look in the future.

    I am ok with my husband sleeping with other girls, I am *not* ok with my husband leaving me for those girls, and *not* ok with my husband publicly sleeping with other girls. I am *not* ok that my husband can simply dump me and move on with his life with very little scar just because I “threw too much drama” at him.

    Come on, would you love and willingly share your life with a woman who not only expects the relationship will not work out, but also actively design a relationship structure that makes sure nothing will change once you break up, and consciously take steps to assure she won’t get attached to you enough so when you leave, she will be able to shrug and bang other men in couple days? Can you have *children* with her? Don’t you *prefer* your woman to be slightly delusional about Disney and less cynical, at least about you? I think I should be with a man who is at least as “delusional” as I am – given that I don’t have that much baggage to deal with myself.

    @azog

    There it is, the crux of what she’s saying. The rest is just hamster wheel spinning.

    Hey, at least she’s being honest.

    Read my comments again. The crux of what I’m saying, again and again, is TMM is optimal for me, OLTR is optimal for *you*. I don’t mock you for trying out what works for you, and I do not say “hey TMM is *better* than OLTR for both men *and* women!”

     

     

  116. I think what I am saying is TMM, OLTR, any form of man-woman relationship is not inherently “abusive”. I am a woman pledging (and yes, hoping) I won’t ever abuse the system/the other party, and given that I am not the other party, want some assurance that things will be fine even if he abuses the system. You guys are pledging you won’t ever abuse the OLTR system (to break someone’s heart), and want assurance that things will be fine even if she abuses the system.

    That was the point of setting up TMM in the first place, so that the man would not screw the woman over. But the only way to prevent him from screwing over the woman was to threaten to screw him over. Nobody ever thought, “well what if she abuses the system?”

    The difference is that women recover quickly from a “broken heart,” while men might never recover from a divorce. He could also potentially get kicked out of his own house, while still paying for the house.

    Women are rightfully entitled to child support, but don’t actually need alimony and half of marital assets. This is where it gets abusive. Paying for someone you are not with anymore. That said, guys deserve to get screwed over if they never did their homework before getting into that situation. Women would have to be really dumb to not screw over men, when they are legally entitled to do it.

  117. @sabrinak

    These aren’t colored by my experiences. I threw out my own personal experiences out there because they only further validated for me what I already saw. I don’t live in a “open” or “poly” environment. Plenty of my friends are monogomously married. But this is also a trend I’m noticing as have many others.

    You said yourself you were speaking in terms of what “most” women would want, and now you just said that you’re in a heavily jewish/asian environment which you’re influenced by. Then how would you know what most women want? We both know that the more conservative jewish (assuming that’s what you’re referring to) and asian community, especially in ivy league type circles, is by no means reflective of the majority of women. You really should acknowledge that when you are talking about what women would or wouldn’t want because you’re obviously colored by the bubble you’re surrounded by.

    Here’s one funny example – a blog for men who’s name I won’t mention recently came out with an article addressing what many men have expressed interest in, and it was about “what to do when your girlfriend asks for an open relationship (and you don’t want that)”. Ask yourself – why would an author write an article like this if this wasn’t a legitimate concern or question amongst many men? And if it was, how does this align with what you’re trying to say?

    I think you should really look up how many marriages that become open do so because the woman initiated it.

    If this was such a bad deal for women to the point to where you believe a man would “lose respect” for a woman if she agreed to this (not true at all, but whatever), then how do you explain the amount of women that initiate this themselves?

    Here’s a couple articles to open your eyes. This is not “definitive proof” of anything. But certainly pokes a big hole into the frame you’re setting which is men “forcing” or in your words, “cajoling” this relationship structure onto women who “obviously” don’t want it, to the point where a guy loses respect for them.

    https://www.bustle.com/articles/109606-women-are-twice-as-likely-as-men-to-suggest-open-relationship-new-survey-finds-plus-3

    https://jezebel.com/are-women-more-into-polyamory-than-men-1795171754

     

     

     

     

  118. @Eugene Nayvelt

    In regards to the Women asking their man for an open relationship, don’t you think many women will hold on to that “wild card” until they have been married for a while and feel they have the deck stacked in their advantage?

    Its funny you brought this up because many of the questions I ask women while dating is to help THEM see that they probably want this just as much, if not more, than me. (The Socratic method of debate and asking questions) . And I think it freaks them out sometimes and they are so worried about being slut shamed or high ASD that they flee for a lil while and then come back suddenly agreeing with me lol.

    But the issue is, it seems many of them don’t wanna TMM a man that is smarter than they are. They would prefer to find a man they can manipulate and control for 3-5 years and then get him to agree to an open relationship LATER ON so she can come screw me or whoever.  Now she has it setup in her advantage.  And yes, I am only saying this is what it seems from MY perspective, here in bible belt OKC area lol. =)

  119. @kurt

    I think you’re giving the avg woman a little too much credit. I don’t think most of the woman that eventually end up asking for this necessarily had this on their mind or even wanted it initially… and I don’t think of it as an “us vs them” mentality where she’s just “waiting” to use this like some kind of secret in her back pocket while she “sucks” everything out of you in the meantime. Some women maybe but not the average. I think of it in terms of incentives.

    if and when they start to get bored, and are looking at the initially least bad option, and are aware of this option, and especially as it becomes more societally accepted (at least compared to before) they would suggest it. It does make sense because men have more to lose in a divorce vs women, so woman might be more comfortable bringing this up with lees fear of the repercussions, whereas for a guy, he might be more afraid of the consequences of suggesting it.. which is they the woman leaves and they get divorced. And women usually know this too.. which is probably another reason they might bring it up… because they know it’ll be tough for him to say no. But I’m talking marriages here, relationships would be a bit diff obviously.

     

  120. @Eugene Nayvelt

    It could be the fact that 1 of the 3 ladies I was/am seeing (my favorite currently) in last year appears to be VERY innocent, submissive and feminine (was in an abusive relationship for 13 years) and yet she has a Black Widow sticker on her back windshield.  And she knows exactly what it means cuz she told me one night when drunk.

    And yet she needs to be monogamous so she “can give 100% of herself to 1 man”?!   Of course she does cuz she’s a Black Widow LMAFO.   This stuff cracks me up!

    But odds are you are right and that I am letting those 20% deceptive, fake ones, controlling one, etc over shadow the inexperienced ones somewhat.

    That being said, I do get some joy out of turning it around on them and being like the kryptonite to the Black Widow’s, so maybe I enjoy the game some myself idk lol =))

  121. Likely my last comment on this post as I actually need to get back to the real world. But thank you so much for giving me so much attention and giving me the opportunity to flesh out my opinions about relationships in general. I don’t think my views are *fundamentally* changed, but I learned nuances of my views from a lot from many of you. I will keep checking this blog.

    @Eugene

    These aren’t colored by my experiences.

    You’re absolutely wrong. As long as you are speaking empirically, you are “colored by your experiences,” as I am, and as Caleb is. Kurt’s clearly is as he keeps circling back to his once-innocent Black Widow lady story every chance he gets – it’s normal, our surroundings affect us, and we tend to generalize the world from the experiences we learn from our surroundings.

    The only *fact-based* way we can settle the debate of “majority of women prefer the open relationship model and it is good for them” is to actually get the most representative sample of all women in the Western world (encompassing all political, religious, and socioeconomic groups), and polling them (assuming they tell the truth) if they would like to get into a open marriage without a prenup. We will likely never do this, so this argument cannot be closed “with facts” – we will agree to disagree. The fact that you guys are “noticing the trend” is simply empirical – your friends and the women you are meeting via online dates are *not* representative, as my world is definitely not representative (and I personally prefer it that way, as I think the majority of Americans are dumb and overweight, but that’s besides the point).

    When I said I was the “majority” of women, I was repeating Caleb’s words in this blog: I am likely a “Dominant.”  Caleb’s model of female categorization says 60-65% of the women were “Dominants”. Therefore, I am the “majority” *in this sense*.  Of course I’m not the “majority of women” in *all senses*. I’m prettier and smarter. 😉

    If this was such a bad deal for women to the point to where you believe a man would “lose respect” for a woman if she agreed to this (not true at all, but whatever),

    Ok. I realize many people here do not understand rhetorical questions, so I’ll explain again. Below is the original comment:

    Duke insinuates women will not respect a man who will get into TMM with them:

    She also doesn’t acknowledge that TMM is a bad deal for men, only that it benefits her and other women. How could you respect someone that takes a bad deal like that?

    My response was:

    I respect and love a man who gets into TMM with me. OLTR is a bad deal for women compared to TMM, and TMM is a *societal norm*. As a man, how could you respect a woman that takes a bad deal like that?

    So what I actually mean is: Women do *not* lose respect for men who marry them “traditionally” as you guys do *not* lose respect for women who get into OLTR with you guys. I hope that’s clear.

    One last little caveat that I learned from talking with men and women – and this is simply an opinion/insight I have – is that men *prefer* to have a more “clear cut” view of the world – this is different from saying “more logical”. Men like to generalize and see patterns from their surroundings and make theories and models from it that make sense to them (as Caleb is) – some men do this for women (check out “The Rules Revisited” – most of you guys will hate his advice to women but you will get good insights from it)! Women tend to *not* like to generalize and get more interested in looking at nuances of their specific situations – that’s why manosphere has tons of “steps to get laid” articles, and women-centric sites have tons of “this happened to me, please validate my emotions, this is what I learned from it” type articles. Just something to think about, as one thing that we all actually agree here is men need women to be happy (unless you are the MGTOW types), and women need men to be happy – and we all need to learn to communicate to each other better.

     

  122. @SabrinaK

    “So what I actually mean is: Women do *not* lose respect for men who marry them “traditionally” as you guys do *not* lose respect for women who get into OLTR with you guys. I hope that’s clear.”

     

    Sorry I do not agree with this.  Women lose respect or it for sure does not GO UP after a man TMM marries her that is for fucking sure.  I would add to that the boredom and attraction goes down usually, as my once gorgoues ex-wife just got re-married last year and had already put on 60 pounds in her 1st year.

    Add to this the # of ladies that get mad at me and leave to find a Submissive man and then come back all fat and ugly!  UGH.

    Do you think that ANY of these women’s respect for any of these men went up??  Nope.  IT ALWAYS GOES DOWN after a man agrees to this.

    As a matter of fact, I am still friends with a couple of ladies that wanted to be mono w/ me years ago and they tell me, “Kurt you did the right thing (saying no to them) and don’t fall for most women’s crap you are smart for doing what you do I just didn’t see it at the time…”

    So yeah a woman’s Respect for a mono man is gonna go down or stay level, but odds are it will go WAY the fuck down to become hatred or worse lmao.  Keep your balls men!  =))

    Any woman that I dated MLTR or in open relationship I gain respect for because she is being more submissive to my needs, which is fucking rare in our feminist driven culture. I cherish a woman like this and see her value go up in my mind, not down when she is submissive to my needs. So all this goes back to it is not natural for men to be submissive to Women. That simple!

     

     

  123. @SabrinaK

    Actually, the black widow lady ( I couldn’t resist) did show me a photo from years ago when she was chunky and not very pretty (now she is a # 8+) and I was shocked at how ugly she looked actually.

    Guess who’s fault it was that she got fat and ugly during her mono marriage??

    LMFAO

    (I don’t even have to say because you know what she said =))

  124. I won’t dump my husband when I get bored

    Wow, that’s rich.

    Anyone else who is 40+ plus and dating after a failed TMM want to chime in on how frequently the antithesis of this is the response to the divorcee you are seeing when the “so, what happened?” question rolls around?

    For the record, I don’t hate women, and I don’t disrespect women.  But I’m not inclined to listen to them about relationships pre their first or second divorce.  Because they don’t know.  And if they do, they still won’t admit it.

    I think she’s a nice enough gal, but I wish this forum had a “ignore” button.  Cognitive dissonance like that just frustrates me.

  125. SabrinaK wrote:

     I simply want to pair bond with a man I have long time potential with, within a system (TMM) that gives me a sense of security that even if he leaves me, I will be fine.

    I hope you’ll stick around, because your comments have been very insightful.  With the “security” you mention here, do you mean financial security?  If so, then I think this warrants some elaboration.  In a really traditional marriage, I think this would be fair.  If a stay-at-home mom takes care of the house and the family so that the man can work on his career (and thereby forsakes her own career prospects) then I think alimony after separation is not unreasonable.  I think most of the men here are not advocating this “having your cake and eating it too” mentality, but would rather see their OLTR be independent.

    I am ok with my husband sleeping with other girls, I am *not* ok with my husband leaving me for those girls, and *not* ok with my husband publicly sleeping with other girls.

    Well this sounds like a very reasonable arrangement to me.

    I am *not* ok that my husband can simply dump me and move on with his life with very little scar just because I “threw too much drama” at him.

    You’re describing FB, I think.  I might be more Disney than most here, but I don’t think most of the audience here would consider “simply dumping” an OLTR on a whim.  What I also don’t really understand from your comments is that you seem to want an arrangement where you can throw drama at your husband (because you’ll get bored with him?) but don’t want him to be able to walk away from it.  It’s almost as if you’re saying “women throw drama, it’s just what we do”  – but that to me sounds just as bad as “men hit women when they don’t listen, it’s just what we do” and we’d prefer some arrangement where the women can’t leave us if we do.  Surely you don’t mean this?

  126. @C Lo

    I am 43 and was married 19 years.  Got divorced 5 years ago.

    And yes, it does get VERY old hearing women bash their MULTIPLE ex’s, especially on first dates.

    In regards to the comment about TMM and Boredom – notice she said “….WHEN she gets bored…”.  Not “if” she gets bored!

    She may just gain 100 pounds BUT have fun doing it (versus be bored eating and watching TV lol) and not be into sex much and then will have an excuse to accuse her husband for cheating.  They could run over an animal and find a way to blame their TMM husband.  As long as they don’t take any responsibility for anything is the key.

    If you help them go to college and get a degree, it was them that did all the work.  If they failed at college, it would be mostly the TMM husbands fault they did not succeed.

    It’s comments like, “I just thought I was in Love” that creep me out about the female brain lol.

    So, many times when the “so, what happened” question rolls around, I will go first and tell them I had a great 19 year marriage and don’t regret it and stop.  You should see the look on their face LMAO.

    If that doesn’t work, I tell them I prefer to do the negative stuff on date 3 or 4 if ever.  This also helps me weed out the Drama queens and Victim mentality ones.  At minimum I will just go, “yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah…” and yawn and look for a TV and start to fade on them or look bored. =))

    I am seriously thinking (just for fun and comedy) about hitting the record button on my cell on future dates and record 3 or so when they start bashing their TMMs exs.  Then, when another lady brings it up and how they are “not like the rest” I just let them listen to those conversations.  Eventually, it start to feel like Ground Hog day the movie….ugh

  127. For the record, I don’t hate women, and I don’t disrespect women. But I’m not inclined to listen to them about relationships pre their first or second divorce. Because they don’t know. And if they do, they still won’t admit it.

    I actually view men the same way. Anyone , man or woman doesn’t matter, who has never had a 3+ year-live in relationship with another person and who is commenting with great assurity about their future marriage or live-in relationship will turn out should be largely ignored. Women do it when they defend monogamy and men, including pick-up artists, do it when they talk about what they’ll do once they get over age 35. Once again, it’s all Disney and wishful thinking, not any reflection of facts or objectivity.

    Sabrina, like most women who defend these models, really doesn’t care if her marriage fails later as long as she A) gets some cash or other financial support when it does and B) she can find a new guy quickly after it’s over. Therefore, she’s right, traditional monogamous marriage is the best model for her. It’s not fair at all to the man she marries, but again, she doesn’t care. Nor will the beta male she marries (until it’s too late of course).

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