How much money can you make as an independent consultant? Or from any Alpha 2.0 business? How much money should you make?

How Much Money Should You Make?

In my primary book, The Unchained Man, and at my blogs, I talk about the fundamental baseline of how much money the typical man in the Western world requires for long-term happiness. According to several large and empirical studies, this number is $75,000 per year or close to it. (If you live outside of the USA, please convert this figure to your own currency, get that number in your head, and mentally replace that number whenever I say $75K. It’s important.)

To summarize the importance of that number, if you make less than $75K per year the odds are extremely high that you won’t be able to afford aspects of a lifestyle that you will (or do) really want. This will cause you to be unhappy, at least in the long-term.

The flip side is that making much more than $75K per year does increase happiness for most men, but not nearly as much as it does going from your current average income (whatever that is based on your region) to $75K. You start to experience diminished returns once you start making more money than $75K per year, at least on average for most men.

This means that $75K is the statistical sweet spot in terms of your long-term happiness as a man in the modern era.

There are, of course, exceptions to this. Some men do indeed need to make more than $75K per year for maximum happiness. I’m one of these guys. I would be quite unhappy if I only made $75K per year, and I know this because when I did make $75K per year I wasn’t happy with my lifestyle at all. I wasn’t miserable, but I wasn’t really happy. The good news is that once I was making just under double that, about $140,000 a year, and had zero debt, I was happy as fuck. I make many times that now, and I’m still really happy.

Like I said, that’s me. You may be like me, in that you won’t be totally happy until you make some income figure well past $75K per year. Or you may be more normal, and at $75K per year you’ll be happy as a clam, particularly if you follow the other Alpha Male 2.0 financial standards of low/zero debt, living somewhere with very low taxes and low cost of living, never being a moron by legally combining your finances with a woman, and so on. A guy doing all of those things making $75K per year, especially if that’s location-independent income, is going to live a great life.

That begs the question as to whether or not you would be happy making less than $75K. After all, if there are men like me who need to make more than $75K per year to be happy, it stands to reason that there are other men who would be totally and truly happy making only $55K per year or even less… right?

The answer is, it depends.

If you are one of those guys with very simple needs, who is totally happy not owning a car, living in a shitty little apartment, never really traveling that much (or doing so on the ultra-cheap like being a hostel backpacker), then possibly, yes, less than $75K might make you happy.

Ah, but there’s a catch. As always when I talk about happiness, I’m not just talking about happiness, I’m talking about long-term happiness, as in happiness that will last you the next 30+ years, not just right now.

If you’re a 27 year-old single guy with no kids, no debts, no girlfriend, no nice place to live, and no car, and who doesn’t want any of those things right now, then sure, you might be okay with $40K per year (or whatever). Maybe (even though most guys like you would like a little more money.)

But what happens when you hit 37 and now you want to settle down with a woman and have kids?

I’ll never want that, BD!

Oh, c’mon now, we’ve talked about that defensive, bullshit statement at this blog many times. I’ve shown you the stats on this, as well as shown you examples of men who said this when they were young only to turn around in their late thirties or forties and suddenly change their minds.

So yes, I’m sorry, but the odds are overwhelming (something like 92%) that you will want something like kids or a wife or a family someday. Maybe not today. Maybe not in five years. But someday.

What happens when you want this and you’re only making $50K per year? Heh. You’ve got a serious problem.

Then comes the issue of retirement and old age. If you make $30K, $40K, $50K, or whatever your entire life, how do you think your old age will look? I’ll tell you. It will look like POVERTY (at least in the vast majority of cases). Will that make you happy? Uh, no.

So unless you’re willing to kill yourself before you get too old (and I realize there are those on the internet who advocate this) or you’re this very rare and bizarre exception to the rule who will literally never want to live with a woman or have any kids ever, no matter how old you get, then making less than $75K won’t make you long-term happy, even if such a thing would make you happy today.

How Much Money Can You Make?

So if you need to make $75K per year or more to be happy long-term, how much money can you make?

As I’ve talked about before, building your self-employed, location-independent income up to $75K per year (which is only $6250 per month before taxes; not a lot of money with today’s inflation rates) only takes you anywhere from 1.5 years to 3-5 years on the outside, provided you put in the work.

Even if it takes five years, before you bitch and complain about how much “work” that is and how you don’t want to “wait,” take your current age and add five. Now you’re that age, and you have $6,250 coming into your life every month, location-independent, for the rest of your life. Is that a good deal? Was it worth the five years? YES. (And again, if you hit this hard and do everything correctly it won’t take you five years; you’ll pull it off in far less.)

Consulting is even better. There are pros and cons to all types of businesses and consulting is no different, but the strength of consulting is that you can hit big income numbers very fast, with no college degree, no special certifications, and minimum job experience. This is how I was able to go full-time as a consultant as a 24 year-old beta male moron and get my income to six figures in just three years doing most things in my business wrong. The velocity of income under a consulting model is really amazing. (Today I could go from zero to six figures in consulting (meaning at least $8300 per month pre-tax) within three months, perhaps six months on the extreme outside if I ran into a stream of bad luck.)

If six figures seems like too big a number for your subconscious to accept, that’s fine. Stick with the $75K figure ($6250 per month) and go for that, which is even easier under a consulting model. Once you get to that income, you can decide then if you want more or if you’re satisfied with the $75K per year baseline. It’s really up to you.

Any man in the Western world can get his income up to at least $6250 pre-tax USA equivalent given a little time, work, and focus. As always, I’m not saying you need to be a multibazillionaire, make six figures, “10X your life” or any other internet bullshit-hype you hear. Just get your income to $75K per year at least. You can do that. Anyone can.

And you can do a lot more too, if you want.

One of the fastest ways I know to get to this income is by being a consultant. The Consultant Course comes out first thing in the morning, 12:01 PST/PDT Friday, March 22nd. Put it on your calendar, because you’ll only be able to get it for one week after that.

38 Comments on “How Much Money Should You Make?

  1. If $75k is the minimum pre-tax income needed for the Alpha 2.0 lifestyle, what would you say is the minimum post-tax income needed for this lifestyle in the United States?

  2. Please define “consultant”. Is it someone who finds customers who have problems and undertakes to solve those problems, providing a solution specific to that customer and thus effectively selling his time? Is your typical freelance IT guy on a site like Upwork a consultant?

  3. $75K is the bare minimum short term if everything else is kept in order like you’re single, have no kids, have benefits from a job (retirement and medical), fantastic saver, and live a frugal lifestyle in low cost of living area.  If I were self employed, without any insurance or employer provided pension or retirement, I would want to make right around $100k as a bare min in a low to average cost of living area.

  4. If $75k is the minimum pre-tax income needed for the Alpha 2.0 lifestyle, what would you say is the minimum post-tax income needed for this lifestyle in the United States?

    That $75K figure is based on the typical tax rates of the typical American, which is a lot. So if you follow the Alpha 2.0 concepts and bring your taxes way down, you might be able to get away with less than $75K pre-tax.

    Please define “consultant”. Is it someone who finds customers who have problems and undertakes to solve those problems, providing a solution specific to that customer and thus effectively selling his time?

    All except the last part, since the smart consultant doesn’t need to sell his time this way. Also change the world “customer” to “client” and specify that the client is a company not an individual.

    Working with companies = consultant.

    Working with individuals = coach.

    (Or you can do both like I do.)

    Is your typical freelance IT guy on a site like Upwork a consultant?

    No, the Upwork guy is not the typical consultant. That’s the low-end consultant or beginner.

    $75K is the bare minimum short term if everything else is kept in order like you’re single, have no kids, have benefits from a job (retirement and medical), fantastic saver, and live a frugal lifestyle in low cost of living area.  If I were self employed, without any insurance or employer provided pension or retirement, I would want to make right around $100k as a bare min in a low to average cost of living area.

    Over at the Caleb Jones Blog at the duplicate of this article I have some audio (it costs $3) where I go into a little more detail about the different income levels from under $30K per year to $1 million per year. I happen to agree that more than $75K is needed for long-term happiness, but that’s strictly my biased opinion and thus not my overall recommendation to the entire world, and as you said, it’s highly situation-dependent.

  5. I’d say more like $100K than that in States like CA/NY and even more than that in Cities like LA/NY.

  6. I need way more than $75k to be happy, but I’ve made two choices that factor heavily into that reality:

    1. I have a kid. Those fuckers are expensive.
    2. I live in a pretty affluent metropolitan area. This is a choice I made knowing that it cuts both ways. My COL is quite a bit higher than it could be elsewhere, but my location is much more convenient for my line of work (software) than somewhere more rural or remote, as there are a ton of prospective clients within an hour’s drive. Yes, it’s getting easier to cultivate opportunities remotely but most corporate decision-makers still want to meet in-person with some regularity.

    Thankfully, companies are willing to throw ridiculous sums of money at consultants who are at least moderately competent and can market themselves fairly well. Seriously, it’s amazing how much they’ll piss away.

  7. BD, why weren’t you happy making 75k? Were there specific things you wanted to buy, a certain lifestyle you couldn’t afford or did you think it wouldn’t be enough if you had to sit out a crisis/retire?

  8. BD, why weren’t you happy making 75k? Were there specific things you wanted to buy, a certain lifestyle you couldn’t afford or did you think it wouldn’t be enough if you had to sit out a crisis/retire?

    Both.

    I wanted:

    – To be able to travel anywhere in the world, literally whenever I wanted (even at a moment’s notice), as frequently as I wanted, and not have to stay in shitty hotels when I did. $75K per year before taxes isn’t going to do that.

    – To put away massive amounts of money paying down my debts fast (earlier) and put massive amounts of money away for the future (later and now) so I wouldn’t be poor, ugly, and fucked when I was old like most old people are. $75K per year before taxes isn’t going to do that.

    – To be able to spend money every month without having to constantly worry about how much things cost. $75K per year before taxes isn’t going to do that.

    – To be able to put as much money into my businesses as I felt was necessary to scale them (advertising, paid marketing, lots virtual assistants, etc). $75K per year before taxes isn’t going to do that very easily.

    And so on.

    Again though, that’s me. I’m not trying to convince anyone of needing more than $75K; I’m just talking about myself. My point here is to find what you want and be congruent to that.

  9. Even if it takes five years, before you bitch and complain about how much “work” that is and how you don’t want to “wait,” take your current age and add five. Now you’re that age, and you have $6,250 coming into your life every month, location-independent, for the rest of your life. Is that a good deal? Was it worth the five years? YES.

    I started this five year journey about a year and a half ago and I’m starting to realize that I’m gonna need to pretty much divorce myself from pretty much everyone I know who is either too nihilistic to care about making more money or think that it is “unrealistic” to make $75k a year. Those people WILL stop you. Oh they’ll wish you luck and stuff, but that’s just hot air. The way they live their lives is what you need to look out for.

    And after going to Cardone’s 10x conference I’m now completely convinced that $75k is NOTHING. There are people who make that kind of money in a DAY. But its like I said, the walking wounded around me (even my own family) are slowing me down and have slowed me down for years.

    My issue is how can I make more money with close to ZERO resources. I’m beginning to make consistent money from freelance writing, but it is not much, just better than minimum wage. I’m gutsy enough to go for what I want, but I feel like I’m not as good as some of the better writers out there.

    As far as consulting goes, my other business is something that is about to turn the corner but I am SO SCARED of the kinds of liabilities I might be facing. All I’m really doing is being a sort of “underground mental health counselor” of sorts for incels like I used to be, but still.

  10. Joel,

    One of the biggest things you have to make sure of, is that you’re not offering “protected” services (essentially think of the AMA, ABA,etc as cartels…because they are). The devil is somewhat in the details. Like in my state you can’t be a “life coach” without holding a therapy license, so you need to be aware of that kind of thing. So be careful and make sure you’re somewhat familiar with your local laws. Crony capitalism is all about protecting interests and stifling competition, and the regulations ARE absolutely out there.

    That’s actually why my first business idea went busto. Both areas of my background are highly regulated (medicine and law), so I’ve been having some real trouble with business ideas.

  11. One of the biggest things you have to make sure of, is that you’re not offering “protected” services (essentially think of the AMA, ABA,etc as cartels…because they are). The devil is somewhat in the details. Like in my state you can’t be a “life coach” without holding a therapy license, so you need to be aware of that kind of thing.

    Yeah I’m gonna need to look into that if I want to do “underground counseling.” It’s one thing that I’m pretty scared of, but I know can make me fistfuls of money, especially if incels are my target market. There’s just gonna be more and more of them, and I used to be in their shoes.

  12. this number is $75,000 per year or close to it. (If you live outside of the USA, please convert this figure to your own currency, get that number in your head, and mentally replace that number whenever I say $75K. It’s important.)

     

    @BlackDragon

    If someone lives in places where money goes a much longer way than in the west, such as Thailand, Cambodia, Philippines, etc… I think you said elsewhere that you can’t apply a direct conversion of the currency. Do you think that instead, thinking in term of income relative to other people in the country is a valid conversion? Meaning reaching a specific statistical decile in term of income.

    My question is about the general idea of how to convert. I give an here below an example to explain this idea for a general method of conversion. I am not interested in your opinion about this specific example. I am asking what do you think is a valid method of conversion to figure out the equivalent of these USA 75k$? This method I am talking about is just one idea, but it could be something different that you may have in mind.

     

     

    75k$ and more yearly income in USA is somewhere around the 15% highest incomes for americans. Between 20% and 10% according to this statistic:

    https://wallethacks.com/average-median-income-in-america/

     

    So is it already  the sweet spot if someone lives and plan to stay in a given place because he likes it there better than anywhere else, to reach let’s say the 10% decile in term of annual income of this country? Or what other conversion method do you suggest?

     

    Example: in the Philippines the 10% highest incomes average to 622000php (11773usd).

    https://psa.gov.ph/sites/default/files/attachments/hsd/article/TABLE%25207%2520%2520Mean%2520and%2520Median%2520Family%2520Income%2520and%2520Expenditure%2520by%2520Per%2520Capita%2520Income%2520Decile%2520and%2520by%2520Region%25202015.pdf

  13. What do you think the amount you need to spend is?  I make far more than 75k per year, but only spend a bit less than 40k as a single guy and I can pretty much do anything I want at any time.

    – To be able to travel anywhere in the world, literally whenever I wanted (even at a moment’s notice), as frequently as I wanted, and not have to stay in shitty hotels when I did. $75K per year before taxes isn’t going to do that.

    You can actually do this really inexpensively if you go down the points/miles hacking rabbit hole.

  14. Am I the only one, or is there anyone else out there that has never made anything close to $75,000 ?…and the mere thought of trying to somehow get up to $75,000 just really stresses me the F*** out (also the fact that I’ve already sat down many countless times trying to come up with business ideas and  never having any desire for any of the things stresses me out as well!). It’s like a strange new world to me to even think of how I’d anywhere close to 75,000

  15. Am I the only one, or is there anyone else out there that has never made anything close to $75,000 ?

    It is doable. If the average wage for men in the US is $50k, and the average US man works in a highly inefficient badly managed environment, why can’t a motivated businessman get way more than 1.5 times that money for a comparable amount of effort?

    Corporations, in the US or elsewhere, are famous for wasting huge amounts of money. Why can’t you either help them waste a bit less of that money for a handsome fee, or maybe let them keep wasting it, but this time on you?

  16. What do you think the amount you need to spend is?  I make far more than 75k per year, but only spend a bit less than 40k as a single guy and I can pretty much do anything I want at any time.

    That would be too much long term for $75k a year.  You would have to figure out a way to spend about $2500 a month since you’re going to be taking home around $4700 a month.  That would allow for investments and a savings cushion to support future business expenses.  I have a kid who eats me out of house and home and I budget about $2700 a month (I like you make much more than $75k).  That’s 2 cars ( one of which is a luxury sports car), a condo in a upper middle class school district, and full custody of a kid with no support.  If I didn’t have a kid I could downgrade living expenses by about $400 but if you’re self employed you’ll potentially have to add that ($400) or more back in for medical, umbrella insurance, LLC expenses, Website expenses, marketing, and or etc.

  17. Am I the only one, or is there anyone else out there that has never made anything close to $75,000 ?

    I have ran a freelance business for many years, never made that kind of money. I am sure it is possible, and I do want to get there. Question is, will the Consultant Course help me get there?

     

  18. If someone lives in places where money goes a much longer way than in the west, such as Thailand, Cambodia, Philippines, etc… I think you said elsewhere that you can’t apply a direct conversion of the currency. Do you think that instead, thinking in term of income relative to other people in the country is a valid conversion?

    Of course, and I’ve said that many times before.

    My question is about the general idea of how to convert.

    I’ll let you nerd out on that math.

    What do you think the amount you need to spend is?  I make far more than 75k per year, but only spend a bit less than 40k as a single guy and I can pretty much do anything I want at any time.

    That depends on your financial situation. Your number one financial goal (not business/income goal, but financial goal) is put a away a few thousand dollars for emergencies. The very next goal is to pay off 100% of all your debts (other than perhaps your home mortgage). The very next goal after that is to dump as much money as humanly possible into long-term savings/investments to meet your net worth/residual income goals when you’re an older man.

    Most men, particularly Americans, who make more than $75K per year don’t do any of this, and instead spend most or all of their money on taxes and lifestyle (stupid), when wind up miserable when they hit their 50s or 60s (very stupid). If you want to be horrified at how poor “rich” people actually are, read this.

    You don’t want to be in this category. That’s for losers.

    You can actually do this really inexpensively if you go down the points/miles hacking rabbit hole.

    Agree, but only to a point. Really going crazy with that rabbit hole takes a lot of time, time that could be spend building your Alpha 2.0 businesses and getting to the point where your travel expenses don’t matter.

    Am I the only one, or is there anyone else out there that has never made anything close to $75,000 ?

    The majority of men in the Western world have never made $75K in a year in their entire lives and never will. You’re “normal.”

    But as I explained here, being normal these days is very, very bad.

    and the mere thought of trying to somehow get up to $75,000 just really stresses me the F*** out (also the fact that I’ve already sat down many countless times trying to come up with business ideas and  never having any desire for any of the things stresses me out as well!). It’s like a strange new world to me to even think of how I’d anywhere close to 75,000

    I felt the exact same way.

    Let me say that again: When was poor and struggling in my early twenties I felt the exact same way. Seriously, exactly what you’re saying. But by the time I was 27 I was making not $75K per year, but $100K per year. These feelings can be overcome if you just spend time time working on it. Don’t surrender to them.

    If the average wage for men in the US is $50k

    Actually it’s more like $39K. You’re looking at household income (or perhaps college grads).

    the average US man works in a highly inefficient badly managed environment, why can’t a motivated businessman get way more than 1.5 times that money for a comparable amount of effort?

    Precisely.

    I have ran a freelance business for many years, never made that kind of money. I am sure it is possible, and I do want to get there. Question is, will the Consultant Course help me get there?

    If it’s a freelance service business but not specifically consulting, then yes, it will certainly help, but some of the content won’t apply to you depending on what you’re doing.

  19. If it’s a freelance service business but not specifically consulting, then yes, it will certainly help, but some of the content won’t apply to you depending on what you’re doing.

    Thanks, I understand that. But then what I would need is to develop some of my hidden skills that can be monetized.

  20. Thanks, I understand that. But then what I would need is to develop some of my hidden skills that can be monetized.

    The bonus course teaches exactly that.

  21. I make about half of those 75K. But I live outside the US and cost of living is much lower and I basically can have the same ammount of financial security.

    I’m bellow 30, bought  own my own middle class house (no debt, payed upfront), travel abroad every year and in my country several times per year, and spend without control on liquor and food. All of that doesnt stop me from keep saving more money (i dont have kids tho)

     

    All I’m saying is, if you earn 75K per year in a location independent job, gtfo of the US and go live in a low cost place where you will be a freaking millionaire and live like a king

  22. Am I the only one, or is there anyone else out there that has never made anything close to $75,000 ?…and the mere thought of trying to somehow get up to $75,000 just really stresses me the F*** out (also the fact that I’ve already sat down many countless times trying to come up with business ideas and  never having any desire for any of the things stresses me out as well!). It’s like a strange new world to me to even think of how I’d anywhere close to 75,000.

    I’m right there with you my dude. I’m actually a bit worse: I haven’t even made $30k a year ever, despite going to college and stuff. I gave up on life pretty early and was actually considering being a NEET for the longest time (and actually was for my entire 20s, just bleeding out money from student loans while barely passing college).

    I worked as a bouncer/clerk for close to a decade and I was equal parts comfortable as well as having a low self esteem. I never really thought I deserved to make anything higher than $30k a year, and I’m just now discovering that I’m worth more.

    When was poor and struggling in my early twenties I felt the exact same way. Seriously, exactly what you’re saying. But by the time I was 27 I was making not $75K per year, but $100K per year.These feelings can be overcome if you just spend time time working on it. Don’t surrender to them.

    It’s good to know that BD can relate. Although I was struggling and poor SINCE my early 20s and was too nihilistic to do anything about it. I wonder if BD had a system of overcoming how he felt? I’d like to see him write about that. I sometimes feel like I’ll never make more money no matter what I do 🙁

    Money/vocation is my only life area that decisively sucks. I can get whatever chicks I want and I enjoy my hobbies, but god dammit I need more money in my life lol.

    I’m about to turn the corner in a lot of things vocationally in a few days, and I’m pretty scared. I’m gonna be leaving behind a world where I would just sit on my ass all day and troll people on the internet. Back when I did that, I got TOO MUCH satisfaction from it, I’ll admit.

  23. So unless you’re willing to kill yourself before you get too old

    Interestingly enough,this is Aaron Sleazy’s plan to go once he’s reached around 70 or so.

    http://www.aaronselias.com/2019/01/10/the-dignity-of-suicide/

     

    My only issue is that Aaron plans to have kids,which I feel is a completely selfish course of action when you already have this sort of plan in place. You’re going to force your kids to endure the pain of losing a parent.

  24. Interestingly enough,this is Aaron Sleazy’s plan to go once he’s reached around 70 or so.

    That’s my plan, too, and I’ve commented as such on this blog in the past. I know most people don’t agree with it, but my experience has been that most people who are fortunate enough to make it to 65 in decent health start aging very rapidly thereafter. Only a handful of times in my life have I met or heard of someone in their late 70s or beyond who is still independent and sharp-minded. Maybe science and medicine will devise effective ways to stave off senescence by the time I get to that age, but it doesn’t seem like they’re very close, so my plan stands for the time being.

    My only issue is that Aaron plans to have kids,which I feel is a completely selfish course of action when you already have this sort of plan in place. You’re going to force your kids to endure the pain of losing a parent.

    In the natural order, your kid is going to have to “endure the pain of losing a parent” one way or the other. Why not make it quick and tidy for everyone involved? I’ve seen the alternative with some of my relatives. Here’s just one of several examples within my own family:

    My grandfather lived to the ripe old age of 88, which a lot of people might think sounds enviable, but he was mostly infirm by his late 70s, and spent the majority of his 80s losing his sight, hearing, and mind. His brain so was dementia-addled by the last few years that he didn’t recognize anyone and would shit himself regularly. For his kids, the pain of losing him was spread out over almost a decade.

    That hardly sounds like the high road.

    My parents are still alive, but they’re both 70 now and my dad is aging fast as shit. I love him and will be sad when he dies, but seeing him wither away and become less and less of the man he used to be is a real bummer, too.

  25. You’re going to force your kids to endure the pain of losing a parent.

    This is the stupidest argument ever, as by reproducing, you de facto force your kids to endure all of common human suffering, including the loss of parents, suicide or not. No parent ever plans on surviving their children.

    I would argue that healthily embracing death as part of human experience and teaching your children about it would help them tremendously to get through this sad passage.

     

    Interestingly enough,this is Aaron Sleazy’s plan to go once he’s reached around 70 or so.

    One of the very few points where I take a fundamentally different stance than BD is that I like and plan to adopt the philosophy of this article, written by a medicine doctor who discusses “about how long [he] want to live and the kind and amount of health care [he] will consent to after 75.” It’s more nuanced and less radical than Aaron’s article, while sharing a lot of the similar motivations:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/379329/

    One of the consequences of this philosophy, is that it’s still true that you need a big bunch of money for older age, but not nearly as much as what BD needs to hopefully achieve immortality through therapeutic relentlessness.

  26. Or one can get his body cryogenically frozen with the idea of getting thawed in the far future and regain the quality of life using medical advancements of that time.

  27. Apologies for the late response,I had to deal with a whole lot of things in my life and just now remembered my comment here. Allow me to address some points.

    @Franklin

    I get what your point,but what I’m saying is that Aaron already has a premeditated plan for his exit,yet he is still planning to have children. Its one thing if you only start doing this after all you’ve already had them,but another when you have plans yet still plan to create people who will surely miss you. The ethical thing to do here is to refrain from having children.

    @Gang

    This is the stupidest argument ever, as by reproducing, you de facto force your kids to endure all of common human suffering, including the loss of parents, suicide or not. No parent ever plans on surviving their children.

    Look up Antinatalism. You already have one piece of the puzzle,its time to put the other one. It is absolutely unethical to procreate when you know that life comes with inevitable and unavoidable forms of suffering. Why force your children to endure your death when you can decide to spare them this pain by not having them in the first place?

     

  28. I believe BD is fed up with antinatalism, nihilism etc. and no longer accepts such discussions here.

  29. No, only the latter has been banned. Though that doesn’t prevent the former from being a highly annoying and logically flimsy ideology. I’m not very likely to have any kids, but the idea that we should refrain from making people because “existence is pain” is ridiculous, and more so when an individual negative aspect of life is invoked. Besides, a world with less than at least several billion people would start feeling very small and easier to fall under totalitarianism, I would find it very incompatible with fiercely independent mindsets/lifestyles.

  30. I believe BD is fed up with antinatalism, nihilism etc. and no longer accepts such discussions here.

    Incorrect. I’m not fed up with either. I think they’re both interesting topics and I agree with many aspects of them.

    The reason I banned nihilism and determinism as topics at this blog was not because I disagree with those things, but because the men passionate about those topics were constantly derailing topics in the comments. We’d be talking about MLTR management or marriage or second dates and then suddenly some weirdo would come in screaming about nihilism and/or determinism and would completely screw up the entire conversation, and this was happening over and over again.

    I’m not against those topics. I have a problem with the lack of emotional control of certain individuals who feel strongly about those topics.

  31. @Anon
    Its only Nihilism/Determinism that he gripes against,and that’s understandable because a lot of people use it as an excuse not to improve themselves and their situation. His World of Warcraft analogy is excellent for getting that message across.

    It is however,not a valid argument against Antinatalism. No worries though,I have no intention of derailing the discussion here with this topic,just something I felt needed to be brought up in this specific conversation.

    @Antekirtt 

    This isn’t the place to delve into deep discussion about this subject,but I suggest you seriously look into this topic before you dismiss it with a hand-wave. One example of a serious issue is that Procreation always  comes with risks,it is a gamble,except you’re not just gambling with your own life,but somebody else’s. Regardless of how beautiful or healthy you and your partner are,there is always a risk of your biological child being born disabled,ugly or seriously screwed up in ways(either physically,psychologically or both)that will forever doom them into a certain kind of less-than-happy life. (and no,this isn’t below the 2% rule. More than enough unfortunate cases like these happen.)

    Another is that life,by its very nature,is a zero-sum game. Construction workers,Sewer Cleaners,Police Officers,Farmers,and all those other people who work less-than-pleasant but necessary jobs in order for society to function. The world needs people at the bottom of the totem pole working to keep the world running,and even the success of the Alpha 2.0 business life relies on this as well. Other people stuck in the flow of work so you don’t have to be. (I will never fault a man for wanting to achieve this lifestyle however. I too hope to pull this off)

    Finally,any kind of pursuit for happiness or pleasure is innately a desire to avoid a form of suffering. Hunger,thirst,loneliness,being horny,etc. are all forms of being in a deprived state,and thus a form of suffering that needs to be rectified. Non-existent people however,cannot be deprived. They have no needs nor crave for experiences,and it is actually the only true way to permanently avoid all suffering.

    Besides, a world with less than at least several billion people would start feeling very small and easier to fall under totalitarianism

    Any kind of Authoritarian power is ultimately given by the people. If the mass stops listening to you,you lose all your power as an authority. A smaller population of smarter,critical-thinkers is in no-such danger. and in fact,this is a good thing. our very dense world population(7 billion)makes it impossible for everyone to achieve a reasonable quality of life. Some will be forced to live in the gutter.

    I would find it very incompatible with fiercely independent mindsets/lifestyles.

    You can be an Alpha 2.0 who acknowledges that procreating in a collapsing society is immoral,and thus refrain from it(maybe even convincing some other people they know not to do it either) while still playing their cards so as to minimize society’s impact on them. Being an Alpha 2.0 and an Antinatalist are not mutually exclusive.

    Out of respect for Caleb,that will be all from me. I seriously hope what I’ve said makes you at least consider looking a bit deeper into this ideology. Too many people just hand-wave it and dismiss it as “crazy.” (This realization,after all,goes against a lot of societal programming. Like a lot of the other things taught here) Not realizing that this is addressing a very real issue that most people never even seriously think about.

  32. our very dense world population(7 billion)makes it impossible for everyone to achieve a reasonable quality of life. Some will be forced to live in the gutter.

    [Citation needed]. Particularly in the face of the fact that the gross world product is of the order of $70 trillion. If divided equally, that would be $10k/year for everyone. Americans might scoff at this figure, but it’s nowhere near “living in the gutter”. Adjust it for the fact that there are billions of people who do things other than pursuing their own happiness, or anyone else’s for that matter, be it due to laziness, procrastination, religious views and other reasons that are under those persons’ control, and the conclusion is simple: the earth can easily support this many humans. Everyone who is ready to work hard towards their own happiness can get it.

  33. $10k/year for everyone.  

     the earth can easily support this many humans.

    Sure…if you only cared about life sustenance for its own sake,rather than ensuring that everybody has a high quality life. But,if that’s all that mattered,we wouldn’t be on this blog,would we? I don’t need to provide a citation because you already provided the figures for me. (10K a year for everyone if the planet’s resources were divided equally,nowhere near even Caleb’s 75K figure)

    I’ll admit however that I may have overstated my position with the “forced to live in the gutter” comment. (if your scenario happened. Undeniably,there are indeed lots of people living in the gutter in the current world we live in.) Regardless,overpopulation isn’t my main message here.

     

     

  34. Caleb has explicitly said the $75k figure is for the US only and subject to adjustment for those living elsewhere. For example, on average, I spend about $1.5k per month, and in my 3rd world city of about 1M people that lets me live like a king. That amount includes a large apartment in a prime location, restaurants whenever I feel like it, several short trips per year to interesting places etc.

    Regardless,overpopulation isn’t my main message here.

    What is it, then? If you’ve decided not to have children, so be it. That will, in all likelihood, also be my decision. Persuading others to make the same choice gets you absolutely nowhere though.

  35. I don’t “handwave or dismiss”, I have pretty detailed arguments against it, but I restrain myself a bit because I don’t wanna go overboard with long off-topic discussions on these two blogs (LMAO, I did enough of that a couple years ago). It suffices for me to add my voice to the harsh and, yes, scornful denunciation of this ideology, with perhaps a hint of argument or two, that’s enough participation for me, and it does have effects. When I feel like it, I can be way more long winded. Besides, the idea that we can have a small population that’s overwhelmingly smart and wise is even more naive than my hope that a larger one will make global totalitarism less likely and decentralization easier (and the cleverest still disagree on what’s wise and what’s not, so again, more is better to avoid single rule). No, let’s make sure it never goes under 7 billion, thank you. If I end up obtaining super-longevity through technology, I’ll do my part by breeding an earthling or two :p

  36. on average, I spend about $1.5k per month, and in my 3rd world city of about 1M people that lets me live like a king. That amount includes a large apartment in a prime location, restaurants whenever I feel like it, several short trips per year to interesting places etc.

    Do you mind sharing more about this? if not the city, then the country, and how it is at the level of infrastructure, medical care (gotta think about old age), women, available job niches, etc?

  37. if not the city, then the country, and how it is at the level of infrastructure, medical care (gotta think about old age), women, available job niches, etc?

    Ukraine, I believe it’s about the same in most cities of this size. Infrastructure is questionable, but the entire idea of living in the 3rd world is to be able to access a higher tier of service. For example, public transport here is not remotely close to that of Berlin, but I can get an Uber to just about anywhere for the price of a Berlin U-bahn ticket. A 17km Uber ride to the airport will cost me about $6. There isn’t much to do in the city center, but last year I viewed in person a 160sqm apartment located there available for rent at $400/mo. Internet costs $5-6/mo for 100 MBit/s or thereabouts. In the best restaurants I spend under $20 for a dinner for two (without alcohol, which I don’t drink). A dental filling, using the same materials as anywhere else in the world, would set one back also about $20. This is considered profitable enough that there are way more dental care facilities than I would consider reasonable. Most dentists are underqualified though and it’s important to collect references and find really decent ones (who charge about the same). Women are pretty. The job question makes no sense.

    I think these days 3rd world countries don’t really lack infrastructure and medical care. It’s not like roads are unpaved and water is undrinkable, though that kind of place very much exists as well. What they lack is social life, concerts of famous performers, decent museums etc. The biggest reason I’m seriously considering leaving this place where I was born is the people, who are grumpy and poor and therefore activities that I would enjoy are sorely lacking as people either can’t afford that or prefer to spend the money getting drunk.

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