In order to put this article in the proper context, I strongly recommend you read these articles first:

When Is It Okay To Pay for Sex?

When Is It Okay To Pay for Sex? – Part 2

Prostitution

Is All Sex Transactional?

I will be referring often to points I already made in those articles, and I will ignore any comments that are questions or objections already answered in those articles, so please take the time to read (or re-read) those articles before reading this one, particularly if you plan to leave a comment on this post.

Before I get into the main point of this discussion, I need to address a few things first.

First are those guys who think paying for sex in any way whatsoever is disgusting and would “never do that.” As I clearly stated in the above linked articles, philosophically I don’t disagree. I think the entire concept of paying for sex is absurd. I have to give you money in order to make you feel good and give you an orgasm? Huh? Shouldn’t you be paying me money for that?

I suppose you could make that argument if I threw a hooker down on the floor with no foreplay, shoved my cock inside, pumped her for three minutes, came, then immediately kicked her out of my house. But, as regular readers know, that is not the way I have sex. I never have sex with professional hookers, I never have one night stands, and I only engage in long-term relationships with women, so it’s just as important these women feel good during sex as I do, regardless of if she’s a FB, sugar baby, MLTR, or OLTR.

That right there is one of the core differences between having an ongoing sexual relationship with a sugar baby versus a professional hooker. But I’m getting ahead of myself.

The point is I agree that the entire concept of paying for sex is nonsensical, but most things about our current society are nonsensical, and I live in the real world. A core Alpha Male 2.0 trait is to acknowledge the real world for how it really is, not live in a philosophical fantasy-land that only exists in your own head. If you never want to have sex with a woman where money is involved, even in your old age, that’s fine, but I will ignore comments that just say “I would never do that; that’s gross” since I’ve already made my position on this very clear, both here and in the above linked articles.

The second group of guys I need to address are those on the other extreme side, who think paying for sex is a great idea since ALL sex is transactional in some way, and that NO woman has sex just because she likes sex. That is empirically incorrect, and I’ve already addressed you guys in the article Is All Sex Transactional? and I will ignore comments from you guys as well since I’ve already addressed this silly topic.

Okay! Now we can get to the main topic!

Is sugar daddy game prostitution?

Well, as I talk about in The Ultimate Online Dating Manual and The Ultimate Younger Woman Manual, there are two distinct types of sugar daddy game: pay-for-it game and don’t-pay game (otherwise known as “salt daddy game”).

Pay-for-it game is when you do indeed pay the sugar babies but use various techniques to get that number down to as microscopically small as you can. Don’t-pay game is when you use sugar daddy dating sites to get laid but don’t pay these women at all, instead using very strong game and an Alpha frame. I’ve done a lot of both of these and I discuss exactly how to do this in the above two linked books.

Don’t-pay game is not prostitution. I would argue that sometimes it’s a very high-cost form of game regardless, but it’s not prostitution at all, since you’re not paying her.

Pay-for-it game is prostitution on a technical level. You’re paying her for sex, she (ostensibly) would not have sex with you unless you paid her, so yes, technically it’s prostitution.

Now let’s talk about the next question, which I think is more relevant: Is sugar daddy game just like prostitution?

The answer is no. There are some significant differences. So much so that while I have literally never paid a prostitute for sex, I have no problem carrying on a long-term FB relationship with a sugar baby or two. There’s a reason for that. Several reasons, actually. I shall explain.

While I have never paid a prostitute for sex, I have had sex with one or two professional prostitutes in the past for free via normal game. I’ve also known several professional hookers in my day, so I know a little something about this.

There are significant differences between a hooker and a sugar baby.

A professional hooker is a woman who has sex with four, five, seven, perhaps even eight or nine men in one day. It’s her job. She churns them out like an assembly line. She is on-call pretty much 24/7, and is accustomed to suddenly canceling appointments in her personal life at all times, even late in the evening, to go fuck one of her customers.

When she has sex, she puts on a show. She doesn’t enjoy it at all. It’s just a job to her. She either can’t enjoy sex at all, with anyone, or she has to go find “normal” guys to have sex with so that she can enjoy sex. (I had a brief FB like this; I was her “normal” guy she could have sex with so she could “not feel like a whore.”)

It’s a hard life. Dangerous too. Rape and physical abuse is common. Drug abuse is also common.

On the plus side, these women make thousands upon thousands of dollars a month, tax free. In places like Vegas, hookers making $25,000 a month or more are not uncommon. Even in the Portland area where I live, they can easily make $15,000+ a month, again, all tax free.

sugar baby is absolutely nothing like this. I’ve had sex with many sugar babies for several years now so I know a lot about this as well. A sugar baby is a normal cute girl who needs some extra money for either clothing/fun, college, or her kid if she’s a single mom.

She’s normal, in that if she’s fucking you, you are usually (though not always) the only sugar daddy she’s fucking. She’s only fucking you and her boyfriend, and sugar babies almost always have boyfriends. That’s pretty much it. (Yes, there are exceptions to this, as I’ll discuss in a minute.) She is also normal in that if she’s fucking you, she is attracted to you on some level. Otherwise, she would never fuck you regardless of how much money you paid her. This is the core difference between a sugar  baby and a hooker (who will fuck any man no matter how disgusting).

At least 60% of sugar babies are also Type Two VYW who are genuinely attracted to older men. These women actually like having sex with you to some degree. You can tell. The other 40% are more like hookers and are just fucking you for the money, so during sex, they’re pretty much waiting for you to finish. Feel free to hard next these women if you don’t like having sex like that (I typically don’t either) and stick with the 60% who actually enjoy having sex with you at least to some degree.

One could argue that all of these 60% of women are just really good actors and are faking it during sex; that they actually hate having sex with you but they are so amazingly talented at sexual deception that they can convince you that they like it when they really don’t. In some cases, this is true, but the majority of the time, no. Again, these women are not hookers. These are normal, everyday girls. If you have sex with them over and over again, they don’t have the ablity to fake it 100% of the time, every time. You’d eventually notice.

Moving on, you can carry on long relationships with these women that last many years. My longest relationship with a FB sugar baby is going into its fifth year. The dynamic feels just like a normal FB; there is literally no difference except a little money is involved. And again, if you “feel” a difference, like she’s just there for the money and hates having sex with you, you can drop her. I’ve certainly done this once or twice myself.

This is why I have no desire to ever have sex with a prostitute/hooker but have no problem having a few sugar babies in my life despite my philosophical opposition to the concept of paying for sex.

Now here’s the objection I know that’s coming: Wait a minute BD, not all hookers are like that (NAHALT?). Some hookers are perfectly classy women who look and act perfectly normal, live perfectly normal lives, and can see you on a regular basis, just like a FB relationship.

Here’s the problem. I know a lot of hookers and I know a lot of men who bang a lot of hookers, and I can tell you for a fact that the type of hooker you’re describing is the rare exception to the rule. As I’ve been saying for years, if your only argument is presenting the exception to the rule, then I win. The vast majority of hookers and the vast majority of men who have sex with hookers are not having sex with hookers like that at all. They’re banging typical hookers as I’ve described above, from “normal” hookers, to streetwalkers, to cheap Thailand hookers, to high-class hookers who still fuck many men a day, every day they work.

Now don’t get me wrong, there’s nothing wrong with those kinds of hookers, and there’s nothing wrong with you paying for sex with those kinds of hookers as long as you meet the two criteria I stated here. That’s fine. I’m just saying that wouldn’t like having sex with those kinds of women, nor would a lot of other guys.

I’m just saying that having sex with hookers and having sex with sugar babies are two very different things (with unusual exceptions) despite the fact they are both scenarios where paying for sex is involved. They’re in the same category, but they are two different things.

And of course, if you never want to pay for sex ever, regardless of hooker or sugar baby, I completely agree with you.

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123 Comments on “Is Sugar Daddy Game Prostitution?

  1. I’ve dabbled in a little SD game. VYW only after getting advice from BD and Dawson Stone who used to post here. As BD says the SB’s I met were all just normal girls who needed a little extra financial help (about $100 per meet).

    Meeting them felt just as normal as finding one on Tinder or OK Cupid. Some of them were genuinely attracted to me and offered me threesomes or allowed me to have sex with their friends. One SB even asked straight out on the first date if I would be interested in being her normal boyfriend, she was just 19. I was 40.

    Lately I’ve met a couple of women (28 & 30) from Tinder so will stop sugaring for a while, but knowing it’s always there if I need it.

  2. So I’ve been considering picking up a SB as a FB since getting vyw via online dating is becoming more difficult.

    One of the things I’ve noticed while browsing is GPS (golden pussy syndrome). How common is this for you guys to run into? Basically saying “I’m hot so I want $5000 a week” or some other rediculous nonsense.

    Also Ive seen women who have sb dating profiles that say shit like “nothing physical” or “I just want to send you pictures” type bullshit.

    Obviously I wouldn’t even open one of those types, but do those types tend to be in the minority?

    But I’ve seen guys comment about how when you sign up there and are reasonably good looking, you’ll have a lot of women opening you.

  3. @ Aloofus:

    You combat that problem by stating explicitly in your profile that you’re looking for an intimate relationship and nothing platonic or online only. Any girls expecting $5k a month can be ignored as golddiggers.

    Also when on the first date tell them what you actually want to happen including discussing the cash amount. All the girls I met said they were glad to meet a man who knew what he wanted and didn’t mess them around. None of them ever turned down 100 bucks per meet lol.

    Btw you’re dead right about VYW becoming more difiicult to get from normal online dating, that was the main reason I got into sugar. It’s not cheap but worth it to me.

  4. Dawson Stone (shame that he seems to have disappeared along with his website) recommended getting back at them with their own proposed amount of money, expressed in $ per year, so it would sound exorbitant even to them. Then he would drop the subject altogether until she would bring it up herself, at which point he said it would be way more reasonable.

  5. BD stop promoting it!!  It’s prostitution and only for pathetic losers!!  Seriously I hope men keep hating on it.  Right now the ratios are pretty lopsided men to women and it’s easy button shit.  If you have game from regular on-line dating it’s way too easy..

  6. BD stop promoting it!!  It’s prostitution and only for pathetic losers!!  Seriously I hope men keep hating on it.  Right now the ratios are pretty lopsided men to women and it’s easy button shit.  If you have game from regular on-line dating it’s way too easy..

    I assure you if you’re a pathetic loser you won’t get anywhere with the hot VYW on the SD sites. It absolutely is not prostitution, you still need game to fuck these women and sometimes it can be done without paying if your frame is strong enough or via referral game with her friends.

  7. I’ve met a few women from SA. Many of them were catfish. 1 was super cool and dtf, and we still maintain a fb status (no $). Another one was kind of annoying but dtf and we still maintain a fb status (no $).

    My goal with trying SA was to see if the quality of women was higher than tinder and bumble. Yes, it provides access to younger women than other sites may allow you to pursue (I’m over 50), but in my experience that doesn’t always lead to higher quality. Just like in normal dating, you have to put in the numbers.

    Anyone saying that SA is a bad thing simply isn’t doing it right. It’s 100% about your frame.

  8. Yes women have different values.

     

    That said, I fucked women from completely unemployed adults, full time students (little money) all the way to plastic surgeon making bank.

    Ironically, the long-term unemployed (and looking) girls were far more likely to offer to pay for dinner this time/ chip in than the plastic surgeon making-more-money-than me.

    Part of that is values. The person making no money in-fact realized how valuable it is, in a way.

    But yeah, it has to do with parents as well. And just life outlook. Many people who grew up struggling have an emotional attachment to money. They are either extremely generous and fair, or extremely greedy. (usually the former). Same with rich people, though often with less emotion. They either realize the fickle nature of money in general, so are very generous. Or, they are stricken with fear that it will ‘go away’ and need to amass more.

    Anyway — I agree that you say ‘sugar babies’ actually are attracted to you physically (unlike hookers in most cases) and have standards, but either are opportunistic, or believe men need to shower money for affection, or both.

    Frankly, a girl who is fair-minded and generous with money, and values loyalty over money, whether rich or poor (doubly so when poor) — earns my respect.

    A girl who is a ‘sugar baby’ — well she better bring some fine ass to the equation, but a bit too alien/ unrelatable to me. She would be a fuckbuddy at best.

    The relationship would be rather transactional (but regular fuckbuddies kinda are too, but simply sex for sex). I can see it working but yeah, honestly, the idea that I as a man should be paying more, not because I make more, but by virtue of being a man — is rather antiquated. When I have unemployed women paying for my meals and begging for my dick, the sugarbaby offer doesn’t compute. We have different cultural values, which is fair enough. I can work with that. She better be extremely fine and give some of the best head of my life though. Otherwise why bother.

  9. @John

    I think you are looking at the idea of prostitution too negatively. There are plenty of Alphas that fuck hookers (e.g. Charlie Sheen, Donald Trump). Prostitution is also the best option to go for men who are outliers from the 98%. These men have certain personality traits (strictly results-oriented, extremely introverted, highly sociopathic/psychopathic, very weak or nonexistent emotions and empathy) and/or goals (e.g. want to fuck 200+ attractive women in their lifetimes without having to use game) and/or are in a certain financial position to be able to pay for sex regularly.

  10. I have no experience of any pay for play (p4p) of any kind sugar babies, escorts or other type of prostitution in north America but from the sex I had with american women using game only and spending less than 10USD per meet on dates, I can say that it was the most “emotionally disconnected” non p4p sex I lever had. My sample wasn’t very large though. But I can imagine that prostitution experience is even less “connected” than that.

    I have some experience in Europe, including Amsterdam. And more experience in Thailand. In these places my experience is that a good 20% feels similar to sex with so call “normal” non p4p women, I can’t really notice a difference. Then there is an additional 20% or more who make an excellent “show” and “service”, so good that it’s different than sex with most (not all) non p4p women but it better in some aspects. Add to this that the amount of prostitutes in a place like Pattaya is so huge and my taste favours south east asian women, with p4p I can find unusually hot physiques very specific to my tastes (meaning HB9 or 10 – subjective). Also I have friends connected to a community where we share reviews of what these women offer. Often I use the service of those that my best friend tried and recommend when I feel attracted to them.

    The advantages are huge for me: minimal messaging, it’s the logistics of setting a sex session if I use dating websites to contact these p4p. Or even better: I pick one I like in a gogo or on the street, WYSIWYG. No first date, virtually no talking, she leaves immediately whenever I choose to pay her, if I want a specific kink, such as fuck her ass, I ask before hand if she is doing it or not. I am bored to death with game, I am a pleasure of sex guy mostly, I am INTP introvert, I hate small talk and I just don’t like to speak to more women (it was fun the first 1 or 2 years, but not now after hundreds of first dates). Don’t get me wrong: I use your system and it’s the most effective, it works great, but I am in this phase where my woman’s life is on autopilot and I have hangout and had sex with so many women already that anything outside of sex and cuddles with them just feels like a chore to me. Discussion with women are 80% of the time a pain in the ass for me, 10% just boring, 10% neutral at best, for me they virtually never have anything interesting to say. Also sometimes I like to have a short nap with a woman, but I always hate sleeping all night with a woman, or anyone the same bedroom even different bed, and I especially hate being waken up by a woman in the morning. I also hate morning sex.

     
    i also tried street p4p in Vietnam twice and each time was some of the worst sexual experiences of my life where the woman is waiting for me to finish and would rather be anywhere else. And it was very expensive compared to Thailand or Philippines, same price as legal brothel in Singapore. Complete rip off. But I have a few equally bad experiences with game. Whereas as I said I have multiple great experiences with street hookers or freelances in Thailand.
     

    I have 2 experiences in legal brothel in Singapore. One was great “show” and “service”, one was horrible.

     

    That being said 90% of my sex action is with “normal” non p4p women with whom I spend probably less than 3$ per meet in average all included.

     

    Long story short, I maintain that using prostitution at least in places where it’s legal such as New Zealand, can lead to equally cost effective FB type or relationships as Sugar Babies with equal quality of sex experience. The process is just different: instead of online game and first dates, you just walk in or have minimal online exchange to set up sex sessions directly, and you sample different women and keep only the ones with whom you “click” sexually. Eventually if you prefer you can filter first with the help of reviews from other guys either directly from men you know or online via private forums. So much more time effective in my opinion.

  11. To be clear when I say most women have nothing of interest to me to say, this also applies to most men with the exception of men who talk about sex and game or hard science. I am not really interested in other peoples lives, even less so in their emotions. I am probably a bit Asperger so I just try to simulate other people way of talking and discussing just to appear normal or not make feel comfortable. This probably includes being on the lower spectrum as far as empathy is concerned.

  12. I consider sugar dating before but I was a bit put off by the monthly member ship fee going around 70 bucks. So I have to pay before I even know if the girls would meet me. But I have made a profile and there are several girls interested, just cant read theyre messages or they favourited me. What is the number of girls to have to make it worth it to try the membership? This is seekeing.com

    Is it important to be honest on the profile? Like it asks for my net worth and salary, can i put some cool sounding figures there or does it have to be honest?

  13. @BD

    I’m a little confused. In your previous blog post entitled ‘The Difference Between OLTR Marriage and Traditional Marriage’ in response to asking why you don’t just pay hookers for sex instead of SBs you posted a comment on August 7, 2018 at 6:34 pm that said…

    I once fucked two hookers in Vegas just to see what it was like. I hated it, even though they were very attractive. The entire experience was just… fake and gross. At least in my opinion. I know many men love fucking hookers and if you’re one of them, great, go for it. It’s just not for me. I like ongoing relationships with normal people.

    But then in this post you said…

    I have literally never paid a prostitute for sex… While I have never paid a prostitute for sex, I have had sex with one or two professional prostitutes in the past for free via normal game.

    So were the two hookers in Vegas that you fucked ‘just to see what it was like’ the ‘one or two’ prostitutes you had sex with in the past for free via normal game? Also why has that definitive number two now become ‘one OR two’, was your time in Vegas so hazy that you now can’t remember if it was one or two very attractive hookers that you gamed into bed for FREE? Hey, I get it, Vegas is a crazy place after all!

    I’m just curious why, if you had sex with them ‘for free via normal game’, why you hated it and found the experience ‘fake and gross’? One would think if you’re fucking a very attractive prostitute for FREE via normal game it would be because she found you attractive and wanted to fuck you and it would be no different than any other girl wouldn’t it?

  14. I agree very young women are getting hard via online. Ive met some below 24 for dates but they seem very hard to get anywhere with mostly they seem either super frightened / shy or no idea what they are doing or just messing around. I also tried making a profile where I put my age as 24 and just hitting up 18-23 and theres loads of them but my matches arent that high or when they are they dont really wanna meet. This is all using the same lines and techniques that work fine on women 24-30.

    I think I will just start doing daygame/gym-game on very young women. The gym I go to is a uni gym (as an alumni) and its literally full with 18-23.

  15. Maybe he embellished a trip to a strip club or a rub-and-tug place.

    Or maybe he felt it was so gross he tried to block it out.

  16. Or maybe he felt it was so gross he tried to block it out.

    Nonsense. I’m sure there’s a more rational explanation, like a friend or business colleague paid for them for him, so it technically doesn’t count as him paying them! I’m sure that’s the explanation.

    Either that or his backpage game was so good he could bargain the girls down to giving it up for free and had it not have been for the FBI shutting it down, he’d have written a new book on how it’s done.

  17. No strong disagreement with anything in the article, but I think the line is blurrier than you’re describing, and not down to a tiny fraction of in-between cases (as in <1%).

    Some (admittedly higher class, but nowhere near crazy price ranges like $500/hour) will give progressive discounts to clients they like more – which makes the idea they have zero attraction to any of their clients and MUST go for “normal” guys to fulfill their needs very dubious – , and in rarer cases become FBs with them.

    Either way, if you’re doing this, going to more expensive ones is better precisely because they tend to not need to screw 4+ guys per day, which makes it less mechanical for them even aside from the fact that some hookers are less mechanical/cold than others anyway.

    Honestly, if sugar baby FBs that one would see 3 times per month total cost 3×100 bucks, then in my view you’re better off finding those high-ish class escorts who’ll charge 150€ for say 45 minutes, who are hot (at that price they’re not all hot but you will find some 8s in that range if you search a little), and see those twice per month, same final expense. The experience is NOT ‘mechanical’ at all; you just get unlucky now and then, which happens with SBs too.

  18. @John
    I think you are looking at the idea of prostitution too negatively.

    If you’re referring to me I was being sarcastic..  I should have stated that.  I love the sugar baby thing.  Right now the ratios are fantastic…

  19. I am INTP introvert, I hate small talk and I just don’t like to speak to more women (it was fun the first 1 or 2 years, but not now after hundreds of first dates). […] Discussion with women are 80% of the time a pain in the ass for me, 10% just boring, 10% neutral at best, for me they virtually never have anything interesting to say. Also sometimes I like to have a short nap with a woman, but I always hate sleeping all night with a woman, or anyone the same bedroom even different bed, and I especially hate being waken up by a woman in the morning. I also hate morning sex.

    This lol. I don’t even consider this sexist either, consider someone saying “most PEOPLE don’t have anything interesting to say – and I’m straight so the “people” with whom I have to put up with this are, you know, women”.

  20. In the previous articles you linked you fear sugar daddy sites being banned in Canada and the U.S.

    I wouldn’t worry about sugar daddy sites being banned in Canada at least.  Here even escort agencies operate completely openly and the various local police forces seem to have an unwritten/unspoken code that they leave both the hookers and johns alone as long as the women are of legal age and not being trafficked.

    Plus the Canadian Supreme Court struck down the prostitution laws a few years ago but the conservative government simply put out new ones. A left wing government will likely legalize it fully soon enough.

  21. I saw 3 sugar baby’s before finding one I had great chemistry with who is now an FB (with no money involved).  In her eyes she didn’t view it as prostitution.  She said “I hook up with guys on Tinder, etc. for free so why wouldn’t I take some money for it?”.  As per BD, technically this is prostitution but SHE is making the choice to sleep with you (i.e. she saw my picture and agreed to meet and (eventually) have sex whereas a hooker would agree to have sex no matter what).

  22. So I’ve been considering picking up a SB as a FB since getting vyw via online dating is becoming more difficult.

    If you’re tired of online game then try you’re hand at some daygame. Tom Torero and Nick Krauser have some excellent resources on it.

     

     

  23. I will be 64 this year.  I have been on SA for 2 years and I am having the fucking time of my life.  The good news is that a significant number of VYW dont want to meet men under the age of 35 ( as these guys have poor social skills ) . Which means lots more hot girls to choose from for us older dudes !    I use BA manual techniques and processes for getting from initial intro message to sex in 1 or 2 meets  with the objective to  lead on to a regular meeting two or three times a month.  ( my longest arrangement was 18 months )  Yes, it costs a subscription per month but last time I had a subscription, I set up 3 introduction dates a week for 4 weeks to find the best ones. You can then unsubscribe until you need to get some more.  Its fast and efficient and I`m almost spoilt for choice.

  24. Yeah if you’re a millionaire who can afford the exorbitant fees of these sites (as someone stated, Seeking Arrangement costs $US 70 a month, if you want to be able to send out messages), try them out, if you look after yourself and you aren’t a fat fuck.

    Especially if you’re like in your 60s and 70s, where it’s going be considerably harder to meet younger women doing day and/or night game, unless you own a legit business that puts you in regular contact with lots of women, but not hookers.

    I myself prefer day game to meeting younger women. It costs me nothing and I improve my social skills.

    I remember Dawson Stone and recall checking out his site, when it was up, but he was/is an extremely good looking dude, who was fucking ripped with a 6 pack, which may not apply to most older guys. I regularly work out and have a healthy diet, but don’t have the genetics for a 6 pack. I could be wrong.

  25. I believe its prostitution LITE.  Is a dispensary a cartel? Is a pothead a drug addict?  The former can lead to the latter, but if we keep them isolated and off the streets, it can be a temporary, light hearted fun fling for everyone, without worry of escalation.  I chatted with SB girls on SA and on tinder.  I met two types:  girls who explicitly wanted $300+ for sex, and girls that wanted an allowance in exchange for their ambiguously labeled companionship.  Some of them have 65 year old guys who pay them to literally just talk and send pics.

     

    In terms of sexuality being costly, I think many men experience guilt and responsibility to provide pleasure to their partner in the bedroom.  If i was paying for it with cash, I would be more selfish, and would try my fantasies without feeling guilty.  The idea of not seeing someone ever again often allows us to be our real, truthful selves.

  26. If i was paying for it with cash, I would be more selfish, and would try my fantasies without feeling guilty.  The idea of not seeing someone ever again often allows us to be our real, truthful selves.

    More selfish, this is also an advantage I forgot to mention. Note that if I really liked it, I will see her again whenever I am willing to pay again. Regardless, there is something freeing in the idea of not seeing her again by default, if I don’t want indeed.

  27. I regularly work out and have a healthy diet, but don’t have the genetics for a 6 pack. I could be wrong.

    Very few people who don’t have an obesity issue to begin with “don’t have the genetics” for a 6 pack. It’s just hard and requires lots of discipline. I’d argue that getting big calves when your calves are genetically puny is harder than getting abs. If you’re a maniac about your diet and work out often, you’ll get abs.

  28. Don’t-pay game is not prostitution. I would argue that sometimes it’s a very high-cost form of game regardless, but it’s not prostitution at all, since you’re not paying her.

    So how much costs this don’t-pay “salt daddy” game per “meet & sex” in average? I am confused here. And when I say “cost” I mean everything you have to pay including your and her food, drinks, events, transportation, accommodation if needed, gifts, in hand cash, etc… everything.

  29. If you’re a maniac about your diet and work out often, you’ll get abs.

    Is the juice worth the squeeze? Strictly speaking, for guys in really good shape.

  30. Also Ive seen women who have sb dating profiles that say shit like “nothing physical” or “I just want to send you pictures” type bullshit.

    Obviously I wouldn’t even open one of those types, but do those types tend to be in the minority?

    http://blackdragonblog.com/2012/07/15/why-you-should-not-read-womens-profiles/

    I consider sugar dating before but I was a bit put off by the monthly member ship fee going around 70 bucks.

    If you’re using my system, you only need it for one month. 30 days is more than enough time to scoop up 1-4 sugar babies without a problem (unless you have no game at all and are a pure beginner).

    Almost never do I need to use any SD site for more than 30 days per blitz.

    I once fucked two hookers in Vegas just to see what it was like. I hated it, even though they were very attractive.

    Ah yes, I forgot about those two. They were not hookers nor have I ever used any kind of hooker service like back page. They were sugar babies from Seeking Arrangement. I called them hookers because they felt like they were hookers (and perhaps they really were hookers using SA; not sure). It felt like I was just another guy on their assembly line and I absolutely hated the entire experience with both of them.

    That being said, I hooked up with a third sugar baby on that same trip and she was fucking fantastic; just a normal girl who was hot. I saw her several more times.

    Maybe he embellished a trip to a strip club

    I hate strip clubs and never go to any (unless I’m with an MLTR or OLTR woman who wants to go).

    or a rub-and-tug place

    I have never visited such a place and never will. Disgusting.

    Or maybe he felt it was so gross he tried to block it out.

    Um…what? We’re talking about me here.

    No strong disagreement with anything in the article, but I think the line is blurrier than you’re describing

    Classic being a nitpicker. Have fun with that.

    In the previous articles you linked you fear sugar daddy sites being banned in Canada and the U.S.

    I wouldn’t worry about sugar daddy sites being banned in Canada at least.

    I agree. Canada doesn’t have quite the puritanical bullshit the USA has.

  31. @JudoJohn: oh not necessarily. I’m only saying it’s doable. I find that having good and obvious musculature – upper body, butt and legs – will already get you a lot of looks, making an impeccable six pack superfluous. I also don’t like to have too strict a diet because I like to be strong and ‘cutting’ can impede my ability to lift heavy.

  32. I don’t really care, as I don’t reside in the US and I’m not even into his music, but it’d be interesting for BD to do an analysis on R Kelly and the R Kelly documentary in a pop culture post. Mr Kelly being dropped by Sony, means nothing, as he’s worth 200 million and bands and solo performers can now be their own record company, but it’s obviously highly disastrous PR for him. Keeping women as sex slaves is a bit weird.

    A record company only helps with doing marketing and accounting, since most people consume music digitally, whether it’s legal or illegal and don’t buy a CD anymore, hence why most bands and solo performers have to hit the live touring circuit.

  33. @ BD Can you give some math how much average FB would cost for a beginner, in total until you settle with 1- or 2 FB? for a beginner it probably takes at least 100-150 hours (online +meetings,dates) in a blitz for locking in 1-2 women, correct, to get something stable at least for several months? let’s forget about the aspect of experience being enjoyable or not for the time being. since time is even more valuable than money for some it may make sense to just p4p for some, or not? little math may help:)

  34. I consider sugar dating before but I was a bit put off by the monthly member ship fee going around 70 bucks.

    If you’re using my system, you only need it for one month. 30 days is more than enough time to scoop up 1-4 sugar babies without a problem (unless you have no game at all and are a pure beginner).

    Almost never do I need to use any SD site for more than 30 days per blitz.

    Is the approach online the same as the usual online game or do I need to calibrate a lot?

    Its just that while I can easily afford 70, its also not an amount I can just drop in the bin. I know I can get girls reliably online provided theres a large anough pool and I feel the pool for SD is not that big in my area.

  35. @ BD Can you give some math how much average FB would cost for a beginner, in total until you settle with 1- or 2 FB? for a beginner it probably takes at least 100-150 hours (online +meetings,dates) in a blitz for locking in 1-2 women, correct, to get something stable at least for several months?

    It depends on the city since these prices fluctuate. For a total beginner with no game and no negotiation skills whatsoever, assume $300-$500 per sexual encounter with all the women for the first few encounters, slowly decreasing that over time. How often you have sex is up to you, so calculate from there.

    These numbers will obviously be far less for guys with more game and negotiation skills.

    Is the approach online the same as the usual online game or do I need to calibrate a lot?

    You need to calibrate somewhat, though not “a lot.”

    Its just that while I can easily afford 70, its also not an amount I can just drop in the bin. I know I can get girls reliably online provided theres a large anough pool and I feel the pool for SD is not that big in my area.

    If you can get reliably girls you consider attractive via normal online dating the I wouldn’t bother with SD at all (unless you have some other compelling reason; my reasons are time management and that I’m married).

    How many of your FB’s are sugar babies?

    Almost all of them at this point, though it fluctuates, soon to be all of them, probably in the next 12 months or so.

  36. I find that having good and obvious musculature – upper body, butt and legs – will already get you a lot of looks, making an impeccable six pack superfluous.

    My experience as well. It’s all about the v-taper, so being fat is a problem, but a light layer of fat over strong abs is absolutely fine.

    They’re in the same category, but they are two different things.

    Yep…..prostitution lite, but I also think that Sugar Babies are ethically way better.

    The degree to which they are becoming the norm is somewhat worrying, though. One up for meat space seduction.

  37. Is the approach online the same as the usual online game or do I need to calibrate a lot?
    Its just that while I can easily afford 70

    Exact same and it’s more like 80+..  You will be on 1 day and have plans immediately if you’re in a metro area and are experienced with online dating.  the only difference are the amount of women who favorite you and open you.  I get opened and Favorited much more often.  They’re also more aggressive and enthusiastic about meetups.  To the point where they pitch and get upset if you can’t..  It’s your world.  I personally ignore the chicks profiles who say “I get a lot of messages on here so….”.  Red flag for a fake profile judging by the amount of messages from cute girls I get, how many respond to me, how aggressive and enthusiastic they are at meeting..  If you find online dating easy then this will be too easy..

  38. Its just that while I can easily afford 70, its also not an amount I can just drop in the bin. I know I can get girls reliably online provided theres a large anough pool and I feel the pool for SD is not that big in my area.

    If you can get reliably girls you consider attractive via normal online dating the I wouldn’t bother with SD at all (unless you have some other compelling reason; my reasons are time management and that I’m married).

    Yes, but not as many and as often as I would like. I am in the phase where I know if I do X i will get with someone within certain time frame, but its still feels like it takes either a lot of work or a lot of time. Obviously I need more practice but my idea is I can practice also on the sugar babies whilst having some fun.

    Is the approach online the same as the usual online game or do I need to calibrate a lot?

    You need to calibrate somewhat, though not “a lot.”

    Yeah I notice that putting stuff like “In relationship, looking for some side action” “looking for someone I can dominate” gets me attention (or still gets me attention) on sugar sites whereas I wouldn’t put that on a regular site.

    I have to say on the sugar dating sites often there are obvious gold diggers or obvious prostitutes you can tell just looking at the pictures.

    Exact same and it’s more like 80+..  You will be on 1 day and have plans immediately if you’re in a metro area and are experienced with online dating.  the only difference are the amount of women who favorite you and open you.  I get opened and Favorited much more often.  They’re also more aggressive and enthusiastic about meetups.  To the point where they pitch and get upset if you can’t..  It’s your world.  I personally ignore the chicks profiles who say “I get a lot of messages on here so….”.  Red flag for a fake profile judging by the amount of messages from cute girls I get, how many respond to me, how aggressive and enthusiastic they are at meeting..  If you find online dating easy then this will be too easy..

    Hmm, I wouldn’t call online easy, its still taking some work and often I am disapointed with the women I meet (looks are fine but the irrationality and stiffness levels often way too much for me, also they are very indecisive and fickle in my experience from online much more than the ones i met other ways). So thats part of the reason I wanna try sugar but thing is I am in a small city, which is fine for women life because its a university town so it has a disproportionate amounts of young attractive women. In that regards its fine as long as one understands the university semesters/exams cycles and knows when its good and when its not good to date in a year. But I wonder if there will be enough women in my immediate area on sugar who will wanna date. I am def not prepared to travel even half an hour to meet new women. I only travel outside of city centre for either women I already know well already or in some really exceptional cases.

  39. which is fine for women life because its a university town 

    University towns obviously have a higher number of “sugar babies” in comparison to other towns without a university.  Even small towns..  Here’s my recommendation.  Get on for free, don’t add a photo, and just do enough so you can search (can’t message).  I have mine at free right now with the ability to search and favorite (women don’t know) without paying…  If you see enough hot girls try it.

  40. University towns obviously have a higher number of “sugar babies” in comparison to other towns without a university.  Even small towns..  Here’s my recommendation.  Get on for free, don’t add a photo, and just do enough so you can search (can’t message).  I have mine at free right now with the ability to search and favorite (women don’t know) without paying…  If you see enough hot girls try it.

    Ive already been on it for a while, with picture and with totally ridiculous stuff like going over the top alpha / dominant / player who just wants to use women as toys. I consistently get messages from women and likes, but its not like every day its like maybe once a week. Also what is enough hot girls for sugar daddy?

  41. It isn’t whats enough for an alpha it’s what is enough to justify the price.  That’s what I meant.  If you have a few that fit your criteria then forget it.  There’s over a 100 I would gladly fuck, that fit my type (very specific), in my area (60 radius), and that have been active in the last week.

  42. Moving on, you can carry on long relationships with these women that last many years. My longest relationship with a FB sugar baby is going into its fifth year. 

    A question for Blackdragon: given that my impression is that FB‘s tend to be relatively short-lived, is this (being a sugar daddy) the only realistic way to make a FB last many uninterrupted years? I hope not, since I hate the idea of paying for sex.

  43. It isn’t whats enough for an alpha it’s what is enough to justify the price.  That’s what I meant.  If you have a few that fit your criteria then forget it.  There’s over a 100 I would gladly fuck, that fit my type (very specific), in my area (60 radius), and that have been active in the last week.

    Ive just had a quick look and its like maybe 30 who are my type within the immediate city itself, I restricted the search range to max 15 km. Theres probably much more further away but I’m not really willing to travel further than that on regular basis. The women who lived further away that I dated I usually made to come to me, not sure if sugar babies would do that (while I am keeping her pay low). It’s a bit hard to tell, there could be more but also way less, a lot of them don’t have clear photos. There are some shining beauties / very interesting girls that fit to my specific tastes but thats just a few, most of them are the regular cute girl and thats around 30 in my city… yeah if it was like 100 or more shining beauties I would probably not hesitate.

    Also, for guys who did this but don’t have some crazy income / net worth, did you lie about this on your profile or did you put the low values there? Because the sort of normal stuff would be the lowest possible selection there…

  44. F.a.o. Greg…..Look Son,  you’r the sort of arrogant dip stick that gets dip sticks a bad name.    1. I’m not a millionaire. 2 .If you can’t afford 70 bucks every 2 or 3 months, get down the food bank. 3. I’m not a fat fuck.  4. Fuck your day game as I’m making money during the day. 5. You are the example of poor social skills I was talking about.  6. You obviously have the hots for Dawson.  Are you confused about your sexuality ?

    Yeah if you’re a millionaire who can afford the exorbitant fees of these sites (as someone stated, Seeking Arrangement costs $US 70 a month, if you want to be able to send out messages), try them out, if you look after yourself and you aren’t a fat fuck.
    Especially if you’re like in your 60s and 70s, where it’s going be considerably harder to meet younger women doing day and/or night game, unless you own a legit business that puts you in regular contact with lots of women, but not hookers.
    I myself prefer day game to meeting younger women. It costs me nothing and I improve my social skills.
    I remember Dawson Stone and recall checking out his site, when it was up, but he was/is an extremely good looking dude, who was fucking ripped with a 6 pack, which may not apply to most older guys. I regularly work out and have a healthy diet, but don’t have the genetics for a 6 pack. I could be wrong

  45. Just last Friday stumbled over a reddit post where a guy confessed that he fucked 75 women from seeking arrangement 18-26 age range without promising them any cash and without paying anything, and without deceiving, 35+ year old guy, chubby by his own words, with a decent place and access to weed/drugs. According to his words his profile described what he was looking for (really sexually adventurous women) and that he won’t pay any allowance or per meet. He felt bad for fucking 18 year olds instead of having wife and kids at his age, thus the “confession”.

    I believe BD only has two categories of sugar babies: pay money per meet or don’t pay but deceive with nice dinner / nice place. Above sounds like a separate category and doesn’t sound very realistic. But being mid 30 I had a thought to try it. Since I screen hard for sexual openness online and that screening filters out a lot of young women.

  46. Also he mentioned he only meets women / sugar babies / who are willing to come straight to his place on a first meet, in this case higher chance he screens in ones which would be open to have sex on a first meet (his words)

  47. A question for Blackdragon: given that my impression is that FB’s tend to be relatively short-lived, is this (being a sugar daddy) the only realistic way to make a FB last many uninterrupted years?

    There is no way (that I know of) to have an FB last uninterrupted for years, and I’ve tried.

    That’s the nature of FBs. Even my SB FBs come and go. The only difference is the time they’re gone is much shorter, as in 1-4 months instead of 6-20 months. The one I said was going into her fifth year does indeed “leave” for 1-3 months at a time every once in a while. Not that I care, since I have so many other FBs (often I don’t even notice).

    And that’s the point; have enough FBs in your life so if one LSNFTEs or leaves temporarily, you don’t even notice nor care.

    I hope not, since I hate the idea of paying for sex.

    Then you should not pay for sex. I don’t do things I hate. Neither should you.

    Also he mentioned he only meets women / sugar babies / who are willing to come straight to his place on a first meet, in this case higher chance he screens in ones which would be open to have sex on a first meet (his words)

    As I’ve said many time before, only screening for low-ASD, DTF women willing to come right over to your place to fuck you immediately is a very high-work, high-volume, low-results sort of game that I have no interest in (regardless of sugar daddy game or normal game).

    I’m not saying it doesn’t work; it does work for those men willing to put in the hard work work and who are reasonably flexible about how hot (read: not hot) the women they fuck are. I’m just saying it’s not for me.

  48. Is the juice worth the squeeze? Strictly speaking, for guys in really good shape.

    Depends on your choice of women. The gym-goer women are worth the squeeze. Most of the guys are usually absent at the gym during rush hour. They are either sleeping in or watching NFL… I had to leave the gym temporarily due to the toxic old men who would cramp my style because the girls were all over me. They couldn’t afford them. *To stay on topic.*

    Coffee shops? Not so much. If you got dad bod with an actual sport under your build… You’re a lock. But still the athletic girls still dig this big time. Always have. I find that white guys should clean up there. They always seem to be doing hardcore “Down the Rabbit Hole” work or something instead of talking to women… Strange.

    As for a male’s physique. I said the athletic look. Jacked doesn’t work. There are fat guys who are athletic-looking. Jacked guys can’t play sports. Fat athletic guys can. If you catch my drift.

    I wouldn’t be lifting weights to get in shape. I would be running sprints and doing body weight exercises first…

    But, to even out my true story is my logistics are too inconsistent. But, when I wear a skin tight $6.00 Zara black shirt, it’s Over with the women. I start choosing who I date. Good problem to have.

    PS- Most gym rats are bad with women not because they can’t talk to them… It’s because they LIVE at the gym and club… Chicks can tell how effortless your style is. The more effortless the better.

  49. Great Article. I wish you would have gone into more detail regarding that 5 year Sugar Baby FB Relationship you mentioned. Maybe that can be a separate follow up article?

  50. If you’re tired of online game then try you’re hand at some day game

    now that’s funny right there..  who the fuck you think is reading this article?  Lol, “daygame”..  fact they have a word for what alphas like me were doing 20 years (before now when we work, do the lawn, cook, clean, and spend time with our kids during the day)  ago is funny..  how you think guys who are going to be open to sugar babies got laid?  No one has to teach me how to pick up women in a face to face situation..  that’s only way I know..  it’s this online shit that we had to learn..  emojis, pictures, profiles..  fuck that shit just get me face to face and she’ll be sucking my dick in no time…  shit you put me and my buddies on a date and it’s like taking candy from a baby while most guys in their 20’s are playing little boy games on their phones and shitting their pants..  which is one reason why sugar babies are fucking old guys like me in staggering numbers..  they ain’t just doing it for the piddly little $100-150.. young guys can keep telling themselves that to make themselves feel better about us fucking their women..  calling it prostitution..  shit a lot of them do it for free because we actually talk to them, listen, give them advice, mentor them, treat them kindly, don’t play little boy games with them, and don’t have fucking peanut allergies…  but keep working on that six pack, lol… men under 35 are in very short supply..

  51. Btw, I just talked to one of these girls yesterday..  said she broke up with her 20 somethingg boyfriend because his mom ran his life, he played video games all day, and he cried all the fucking time..  took her weeks to break up with him she felt so bad after he’d start crying…but he had a six pack…  Jesus Christ what the fuck is going on with young men these days?  It’s fucking unreal..

  52. Coffee shops? Not so much. If you got dad bod with an actual sport under your build… You’re a lock. But still the athletic girls still dig this big time. Always have. I find that white guys should clean up there. They always seem to be doing hardcore “Down the Rabbit Hole” work or something instead of talking to women… Strange.

    Can you clarify?

  53. SB is not prostitution, not even close.

    Plus a lot of hookers and escorts are very different among themselves. Some are 100% biz while others are normal chicks who just use it as a side job for more income.

    This is a classic mistake a lot of guys make: to lump all chicks in the same category and not pay attention to the current woman at hand.

  54. Can you clarify?

    Every morning I’m at the Yummy Mommy Coffee shop in the suburbs. Nothing but women. I am the only guy majority of the time.

    The guys who do walk in with women are not in the best shape. But I overhear they excel at a sport. In this case hockey.
    I am black. The suburbs are mostly white people.

    The conversion rate should be much higher for a white guy in my position than it would be for me. But not so. Because when I am talking and flirting and dating these women.

    Instead these single guys are too busy writing papers on reinventing Communism and studying obscure theories of the world.

    The only reason I bring up race is because the women here are mostly, if not all white which should make it easier for these guys who want to date. But, are distracting themselves and making excuses…

     

  55. Every morning I’m at the Yummy Mommy Coffee shop in the suburbs. Nothing but women. I am the only guy majority of the time. The guys who do walk in with women are not in the best shape. But I overhear they excel at a sport. In this case hockey.
    I am black. The suburbs are mostly white people. The conversion rate should be much higher for a white guy in my position than it would be for me. But not so. Because when I am talking and flirting and dating these women. These single guys are too busy writing papers on reinventing Communism and studying obscure theories of the world.

    So you mean you think that:

    1) coffee shops are good place to meet women?

    2) that its not about being fit but about (seeming) to be sporty?

    3) that other guys don’t chat these girls up to take advantage of all those girls there but you do and you dont get why they dont?

  56. So you mean you think that:

    1) coffee shops are good place to meet women?
    2) that its not about being fit but about (seeming) to be sporty?
    3) that other guys don’t chat these girls up to take advantage of all those girls there but you do and you dont get why they dont?

    Sure in a nutshell. But Judo John was talking about how black, Latino, and Italian guys how they talk and dress to attract women. I was just expanding on his observation. I’m not saying black or latino guys are better at pick up.

    I’m saying the white guys and Asian guys that I see in my city for that matter who would Clean Up at environments like Coffee Shops or Libraries or Gyms because of the sheer numbers of women who live around here, are too busy distracted by things that don’t matter.

    I don’t really care why they don’t. But, they are passing up the very things they are working so very hard to get. When it is right in front of them.

     

  57. Sure in a nutshell. But Judo John was talking about how black, Latino, and Italian guys how they talk and dress to attract women. I was just expanding on his observation. I’m not saying black or latino guys are better at pick up.

    I’m saying the white guys and Asian guys that I see in my city for that matter who would Clean Up at environments like Coffee Shops or Libraries or Gyms because of the sheer numbers of women who live around here, are too busy distracted by things that don’t matter.

    I don’t really care why they don’t. But, they are passing up the very things they are working so very hard to get. When it is right in front of them.

    I think he was talking about that stereotype of “southern guy” who is like all over the place with the way he talks and is so touchy and outgoing and how that works better than just to “play it safe” and be cold and distant. But I have to say “southern” women are also like this exactly, way more outgoing and touchy. Thats why I enjoy dancing at parties in those countries and dont really like it in northern countries where people are stiff and are like what are you doing if youre having fun and actually wanna dance with strangers…

    But back to the topic, what I meant was more like, why do you think they would clean up there? From your description they were fat and nerdy and same as everyone else there… usually from what Ive seen you either have to be different – but not just different, different in the good way (like if everyones short, be tall, if everyones dressing like hipster be business, if everyones stiff and shy be outgoing and touchy etc, but not if it was the other way around…) or be exactly the same as everyone else but like a superman version of average guy (good clothes, money, super fit, nice hair etc etc) and then you can clean up. Otherwise its just a numbers game for most of us regardless of the place or background..

  58. Almost all of them at this point, though it fluctuates, soon to be all of them, probably in the next 12 months or so.

    What’s the purpose of building up a roster with many FB‘s all those years if your end game is to have sugar babies exclusively? It defeats the purpose in my eyes. The main benefit of having a large roster seems to me that you become less reliant on online dating results, let alone having to pay for multiple SD FB‘s on a ongoing basis.

    Interested in hearing your take on this BD.

     

  59. @Alpha

    Good Point taken.

    Im just providing a very rough field report.

    The major point I’m trying to make is to have women be your focus if you want to be with women. And have money be the focus if you want to make money. Don’t criss-cross the two.

    On second thought. It just happens that I see more whites and Asians nerding out thinking they will get a hotter woman. Due to them being the majority.

    For older men from a young man’s perspective:  I would be more cultured than what I see day in and day out on the streets. If you could be more knowledgeable about their interests with unique takes on what she cares about. That’s truly Universal game regardless of age and background.

     

     

  60. BD, I’m trying to understand the mechanics of paying these SBs.

    Is it overt – i.e. do you just hand her some bills at the beginning or end of the meet?

    Or more covert – i.e.  “Here’s cab fare/gas money”, or “buy yourself a nice dress”?

    Seems like a potentially awkward moment that needs some finesse – would appreciate  more detail.

  61. What’s the purpose of building up a roster with many FB’s all those years if your end game is to have sugar babies exclusively? It defeats the purpose in my eyes. The main benefit of having a large roster seems to me that you become less reliant on online dating results, let alone having to pay for multiple SD FB’s on a ongoing basis.
    Interested in hearing your take on this BD.

    I’ll take a stab at this: SB game is fucking easy and doesn’t take hardly any time. BD is busy and so am I. Regular online game or day game takes a lot of time and effort to keep going. Women are constantly on rotation and we like variety. SB game is a very easy way to hit the road running and when done right can lead to reasonably long term consistency.

    Additionally, we don’t want any illusion of commitment and going into a SB site that is very clear right up front.

    And we can afford it. When properly played, SB game doesn’t cost more than a nice date here or there.

    SB game is easy as long as you’re not a hideous repulsive loser. Most of the girls I’ve talked to are just absolutely thrilled to get attention from a decent looking, fit, socially well adjusted, interesting man. Because the reality is that the majority of men on these sites are fat, bald, rich, but poor socially, and needy.

  62. BD, I’m trying to understand the mechanics of paying these SBs.
    Is it overt – i.e. do you just hand her some bills at the beginning or end of the meet?
    Or more covert – i.e.  “Here’s cab fare/gas money”, or “buy yourself a nice dress”?

    No. You do not bring up money, ever. Offering to pay for a cab fare is different, but you ignore the topic of “payment” altogether.

    If she brings it up then you make it clear whatever you’re comfortable with, but it’s what you’re comfortable with, not her. Then quickly move on to a different topic.

  63. BD, I’m not sure I understand the point of your sugar baby FBs.  Why bother paying at all? You are married and have a hot wife who you mentioned likes girls. Why not just enter the swinger lifestyle?

  64. Great Article. I wish you would have gone into more detail regarding that 5 year Sugar Baby FB Relationship you mentioned. Maybe that can be a separate follow up article?

    It really isn’t any different than managing any other long-term FB.

    But perhaps some case studies on individual long-term FBs (or MLTRs) I’ve had (or still have) would be a good idea.

     Jesus Christ what the fuck is going on with young men these days?  It’s fucking unreal..

    I know. Hey, that’s fine. More for us.

    What’s the purpose of building up a roster with many FB’s all those years if your end game is to have sugar babies exclusively? It defeats the purpose in my eyes. The main benefit of having a large roster seems to me that you become less reliant on online dating results, let alone having to pay for multiple SD FB’s on a ongoing basis.

    Interested in hearing your take on this BD.

    Good question.  I have several answers that apply to me and may or may not apply to others.

    – It was never my end game to use sugar babies. Sugar daddy game wasn’t even a thing until around 2015. I consider it another tool / supplement, not the objective.

    – I will always be re-fucking non-SD FBs from my roster. It’s not like I’m never going to see these women again. I’m not forcing them out or refusing to see them or anything like that.

    – I still have a roster that still does its job. I don’t have to go back to the SD sites and haven’t for a long time. It’s just that I have sugar babies on the roster in addition to normal FBs. The roster is still fulfilling its function.

    – I’m leaving the country in two years which will severely damage my roster regardless of what I do right now. This is part of the price I’m paying for leaving the USA to adopt my full five flags lifestyle, and a price that is worth paying in my view, at least for me.

    BD, I’m trying to understand the mechanics of paying these SBs.

    Is it overt – i.e. do you just hand her some bills at the beginning or end of the meet?

    Or more covert – i.e.  “Here’s cab fare/gas money”, or “buy yourself a nice dress”?

    Seems like a potentially awkward moment that needs some finesse – would appreciate  more detail.

    Overt and very clear once you’re seeing her regularly. I use a service like Cash App or Venmo to make an electronic payment at the end of the meet or later that day (I hate cash and try not to use it). I never “help them out” in any other way, even if they ask. For more details on setting up the arrangement, get this book.

    Why not just enter the swinger lifestyle?

    I’ve answered that in great detail in my books, but the summary answer is that then my wife is in charge of my sex life and that’s unacceptable. What if she doesn’t want to swing anymore? Then I’m monogamous. What if she doesn’t want me to fuck a certain woman that I find attractive? And so on.

    Swinging makes a lot of people very happy and I’m glad it works for them, but never for me. No, I like to go out into the world by myself and have sex with whomever I like without having to check in with another person. Full-on Alpha Male 2.0

  65. BD,

    Two quick questions come to mind:

    (1) Did PF start out as a SD FB? (Not judgmental at all here — I think that would be pretty cool if you can convert SD FBs into MLTRs or OLTRs, so I’m genuinely curious)

    (2) What is the “going rate” for SD FBs? Assuming you can’t knock down the price, it seems like $100 per meet/week is being thrown around a lot. Is that a reasonable “cap” on the amount a guy should be paying (with lower obviously being preferred)? What’s the average amount that you are paying your current SD FBs?

    As always, thanks in advance!

  66. $100 per meet/week

    This would be something I could afford and would be willing to pay. Considering how time, energy and emotional turmoil SD would save me it seems like a good deal.

    I just realized, often guys consider outsourcing theyre online dating to a service considering the going rates there it seems SD would be cheaper but with more guaranteed results. Hmm, interesting.

  67. Did PF start out as a SD FB?

    Uh, I met her in early 2014 and she was in her mid-thirties, so what do you think?

    What is the “going rate” for SD FBs? Assuming you can’t knock down the price, it seems like $100 per meet/week is being thrown around a lot. Is that a reasonable “cap” on the amount a guy should be paying (with lower obviously being preferred)? What’s the average amount that you are paying your current SD FBs?

    I answered all of that in comments above.

    $100 per meet

    You can get down to that figure in some cities, with some women, if you do everything right, eventually. Don’t think that $100 per meet is the overall norm.

  68. General question – if it’s too off topic for here I’ll take it to the Alpha2.0 forum. Today I was gaming this very hot chick in a coffee shop and everything was going well, I could tell she was interested at least. She had an inauspicious tattoo of her brother’s name on her inner forearm. I knew he must’ve passed, but when the subject was brought up, I asked her anyway. This is when I totally lost frame, beginning to feel sad for her, and I awkwardly fidgeted. Game over for that one. 🙁

    Anyway, I told her something reassuring and quickly changed the topic back to her passion, which was dancing. But the damage had been done; she noticed me squirm and felt the vibe shift (I’m normally very positive and relaxed when cold approaching.)

    So my point is how do you keep the frame and not let the flow of conversation skip jarringly after you mishandle it the way I did? Can it be recovered, or do you need to hold frame and offer her your condolences stoically in such situations before simply moving on to another, happier thread? I know I had her in the bag and she seemed genuinely cool so now I’m kicking myself. But it’s more of a general game question in regards to awkward hiccups.

  69. As for a male’s physique. I said the athletic look. Jacked doesn’t work. There are fat guys who are athletic-looking. Jacked guys can’t play sports. Fat athletic guys can. If you catch my drift.

    I wouldn’t be lifting weights to get in shape. I would be running sprints and doing body weight exercises first…

    I’m a grappler….weights and running supplement judo and climbing. Seems to me that women totally pick up on the difference  between a man who is athletic and a man who is doing “curls for the girls.”

    BD made a great point in his recent “Older Men/Younger Women” e-book that you need to beat other guys your age in attractiveness…..I’ve already overdone it and am in better shape than many men half my age, i.e. the age of VYW. The calculation is simple, I don’t have the gravitas of an older, successful man….I spent the Great Recession living on student loans, no regrets, but my financial life is now saving money and debt service….I can’t even pretend to throw money around…..so I workout like a fiend and it really seems to be paying off, and since I work remotely, coffee shops are home to me. I still need to be far more assertive with women, opening really isn’t that hard, it’s collecting rejections that I need to get better at…..but I get IOI’s for fucking days.

    Carmichael’s point about white nerds like me thinking esoteric thoughts while the brothers are just getting on with tapping the pussy is both spot on and embarrassing.

    Back on topic, I think a wrinkle here is that it’s almost best to not deny that SB’s are prostitutes, although for lack of a better term, they are the highest class of prostitute one can get. A woman who has a boyfriend and bangs you in part for money is much less threatening to an OLTR and perhaps even acceptable to a TMM wife, yet far better for the man than a traditional prostitute who gets railed a half dozen times a day.

     

  70. Pages from the play book

    1. be self aware …if you can’t pull 9s or 10s in general which most can’t, throw cash down hard for classy 10’s only, short term and hit them hard and parade them around so the chicks think your dating them, rais your status

    2. never make the SD transactions blatent, let your girl have her dignity, treat her like a queen, buy her stuff like it’s gifts and you generally like her, after she bangs you a three or four times have her leave some shit in a drawer and tell her your going to leave her an allowance in the drawer to buy some fun sexy clothes for her to where when she is with you,parking, wax ect  500 cash a week keeps them coming back and you only pony up when they are rolling through for a caring cost of 1500 a month and for God’s sake make sure she is smoking hot and a nyphomanic

    3 forget the personality, all that matters is she is hot, drink heavily at  all times she is around and keep loaded up on viagra

  71. Swinging makes a lot of people very happy and I’m glad it works for them, but never for me. No, I like to go out into the world by myself and have sex with whomever I like without having to check in with another person.

    Absolutely. I read one of the classics on polyamory in America, and some case studies made me want to gag. The poor guy had to take part in weekly committee meetings to see if his other partners agreed to let new partners into the circle. A bit like doing contracts for government agencies.

  72. treat her like a queen, buy her stuff like it’s gifts and you generally like her, after she bangs you a three or four times have her leave some shit in a drawer and tell her your going to leave her an allowance in the drawer to buy some fun sexy clothes for her to where when she is with you,parking, wax ect  500 cash a week keeps them coming back and you only pony up when they are rolling through for a caring cost of 1500 a month and for God’s sake make sure she is smoking hot and a nyphomanic

    No, no, no. Completely disagree with everything above, for hopefully obvious reasons.

    The poor guy had to take part in weekly committee meetings to see if his other partners agreed to let new partners into the circle. A bit like doing contracts for government agencies.

    Yup. It sucks.

    That being said, to be fair, anything is better than monogamy, so being a beta male swinger is still better than being monogamous. But on the scale, monogamy is at the very bottom, threesome-only relationships are just a tiny notch above that, swinging is about two notches above that, then there’s a huge gap, then there’s everything else (FBs, MLTRs, etc).

  73. drink heavily at  all times

    Why? because you would be too nervous otherwise? Or because she needs to drink heavily to forget youre not paying her?

  74. Or because she needs to drink heavily to forget youre not paying her?

    I prefer it if they’re sober.

    I’m an older guy, in my late 60s, overweight and not much to look at, but I enjoy the look on their faces when I get naked. They know if they want the money, they need to give me the honey, even if it disgusts them. Mmmmmmmm… Very satisfying.

    I might have to offer a bit more than most to sugar babies at around 300-400 per meet, but when they heave as they touch me and have to do what they’ve agreed to to get their little bit of cash it’s all worth it, not to mention they are cute 18-25 year olds.

    I used to see hookers all the time until I discovered sugar babies, and this article is right, these girls are way better and much cheaper.

  75. So my point is how do you keep the frame and not let the flow of conversation skip jarringly after you mishandle it the way I did? Can it be recovered, or do you need to hold frame and offer her your condolences stoically in such situations before simply moving on to another, happier thread? I know I had her in the bag and she seemed genuinely cool so now I’m kicking myself. But it’s more of a general game question in regards to awkward hiccups.

    @Marty McFly Just comment on it and then move on with a another thread i.e. “I’m sorry to hear that (brief pause).. so you said you like dancing; you must go several times a week!?..”
    The idea is you acknowledge the negative but don’t get caught up on a conversational downward spiral that isn’t going to benefit you. If you try to be too sympathetic, it not only lowers the vibe and makes you look like Mr Nice Guy Beta but also subconsciously she starts to think “ok that’s nice of him but we don’t really know each other, so why the sympathy!?..”
    You’ve been socially aware to commiserate briefly but then looked to change the mood which she will appreciate. Once you’ve had a couple of minutes of fluff talk on dancing or whatever she likes, then start flirting again.
     

  76. I’m an older guy, in my late 60s, overweight and not much to look at, but I enjoy the look on their faces when I get naked. They know if they want the money, they need to give me the honey, even if it disgusts them. Mmmmmmmm… Very satisfying.

    I have to admit there is something about this that is a big turn on for me too. I have not experienced it so far but sometimes I have fantasies about some girl coming to me for money (ideally someone I already know, that makes it even better) and then she has to do stuff with me she finds disgusting but she does it anyway for the money. Something about this idea is really hot. I dont have moral objections against it because if she would be so desperate to do something like this shed do it with someone else if not me… and I will be nice about it at least. I am now thinking to do sugar dating just for this experience.

    Anyone got experience how to suggest to a female acquaintance who has money trouble that she can get money from me this way….?

  77. she has to do stuff with me she finds disgusting but she does it anyway for the money. Something about this idea is really hot.

    Mmmmmmmmm yes very hot!

    The girls on these sugar baby sites are desperate for money, so for just a little bit more money they will do any filthy thing you can possibly imagine.

    Sometimes I like to really indulge, I won’t shower and then ask them to lick places no respectable person would ever come near, let alone on a fat, sweaty, ugly, old man. I’ll offer them a little bit more for it until they agree, but the look on their face just before they go in is priceless. 😉

    My advice to men here that see sugar babies, might want to steer clear of DFK hahahaha

  78. so I workout like a fiend and it really seems to be paying off, and since I work remotely, coffee shops are home to me. I still need to be far more assertive with women, opening really isn’t that hard, it’s collecting rejections that I need to get better at…

    First, commenters on this site put way too much emphasis on six packs for getting laid..  but what’s lacking in this society isn’t external looks..  what’s lost is the ability to talk to women..  looks get you an audience (in this aspect it’s insanly important) but it won’t get you laid regularly by itself..  one thing I do with women I go out with is I listen a lot..  women love to tell you about the men they’ve rejected..  wouldn’t sleep with..  wouldn’t give a second date with..  unless the guy lied in his pics about his current state it never looks based..    women are emotional creatures..  they’re not like men who base their sexual decisions with their dick..  it’s almost always a negative in how he treated her or there was no “chemistry”.  They talk about it likes it’s some magical force that they’re looking for..  spoiler alert it isn’t..  I bring that shit to every single date..  every single woman who sleeps with me thinks she’s found the magical “chemistry” that’s once in a lifetime..  and almost every woman I go out with sleeps with me..  learn how to generate that and women will drive thru snow storms to fuck you (just had one do it this week. 60 miles through a snow storm,lol)

    second, rejections…  if a restaurant you had a real hankering for was closed at the time but it was surrounded by a ton of other good restaurants would you be too upset?  No unless you made it about something else other than eating a meal..  I’m never upset with rejection because I’m well fed..  I get pussy by other women or if I ain’t I will..  learn to thrive on rejection..  make it part of the challenge..  I’m going to hit on this woman and tell her it’s my loss beautiful if she rejects me..  while I’m looking. Over her shoulder for the next one..  which I always am..  constantly trying to make eye contact with women wherever I go..  looking for a opening..  situating myself to get by tbem..  looking for a smile from them..  always be closing my man.. always… this is sales and coffees for closers.

  79. Sometimes I like to really indulge, I won’t shower and then ask them to lick places no respectable person would ever come near, let alone on a fat, sweaty, ugly, old man. I’ll offer them a little bit more for it until they agree, but the look on their face just before they go in is priceless.

    Okay, thats too far, even for me. But I especially love the idea of getting together with some young innocent girl who isnt that into me / has turned me down but now has to…

    “chemistry”.  They talk about it likes it’s some magical force that they’re looking for..  spoiler alert it isn’t..  I bring that shit to every single date..  every single woman who sleeps with me thinks she’s found the magical “chemistry” that’s once in a lifetime..  and almost every woman I go out with sleeps with me..  learn how to generate that and women will drive thru snow storms to fuck you (just had one do it this week. 60 miles through a snow storm,lol)

    I have been observing and thinking and it became clear that it mainly has to do with mindset. It works on women and it works on getting customers in business / job offers. Somehow people can feel the mindset you have or it makes you act / look / behave differently down to smallest barely noticeable things that add up. There has been even some evidence that you might even smell different (so chemistry, literally…). BD talks about outcome independence. This is part of a mindset also.

  80. Mmmmmmmmm yes very hot!

    There’s nothing hot about that.  That’s gross and disgusting.  I don’t want to be kissing and fucking some chick who just licked some other old greasy fat guys asshole for money when they didn’t want to.  Jesus Christ wtf?  Women I fuck beg to do shit for me.. Why the fuck would I settle for that shit? This right here should impress on men that they need to screen the fuck out sugar baby sites for prostitutes.  If a woman will suck on your asshole for money she is 100% a prostitute..

  81. This right here should impress on men that they need to screen the fuck out sugar baby sites for prostitutes.  If a woman will suck on your asshole for money she is 100% a prostitute..

    Agree.

  82. I have been observing and thinking and it became clear that it mainly has to do with mindset. It works on women and it works on getting customers in business / job offers. Somehow people can feel the mindset you have or it makes you act / look / behave differently down to smallest barely noticeable things that add up. There has been even some evidence that you might even smell different (so chemistry, literally…). BD talks about outcome independence. This is part of a mindset also.

    100% nailed it.  Especially the different part.  My whole persona is based upon being different.

  83. This right here should impress on men that they need to screen the fuck out sugar baby sites for prostitutes.  If a woman will suck on your asshole for money she is 100% a prostitute..

    I am an experienced punter and have been frequenting legal bordellos for some time. I am quite adept at knowing who the prostitutes are and who are just the normal girls looking to make some extra money on these sites.

    Some of the sugar babies I’ve seen have boyfriends and lead very normal lives but for the right amount of money some of these girls will do anything. Becoming a prostitute is very different than becoming a sugar baby.

    Ask some of these ladies that you think wouldn’t do anything like that if they’d be interested in perhaps making a fair bit more money than you give them currently and you’d be surprised what they will do, as long as they know you’re serious and not testing them.

    Perhaps one of your sugar babies was with another man before you doing all sorts of things you would find disgusting? Mmmmmmm

  84. Perhaps one of your sugar babies was with another man before you doing all sorts of things you would find disgusting? Mmmmmmm

    Good luck with that.

  85. she has to do stuff with me she finds disgusting but she does it anyway for the money. Something about this idea is really hot.

    Mmmmmmmmm yes very hot!

    Ugh, disgusting. No. I never want to have sex with a woman who doesn’t want to have sex with me. But hey, to each his own. We each our have weird things that turn us on.

  86. Ugh, disgusting. No. I never want to have sex with a woman who doesn’t want to have sex with me.

    As an older man that’s heard and seen it all over the years I have just come to accept my situation and chosen to make the most of it. I’ve known plenty of other punters that frequented call girls and some that have moved on to sugar babies now, so I’ve seen many men that could kid themselves over the years.

    At some point as you get older you lose the ego and delusions and realise that if you have to give money to a girl to be there with you, she doesn’t want to be there, no matter how much you try and tell yourself she does. If she wants to be there, why would you need to give her money?

    I just like to accept that fact and realised that embracing it could be just as much of a turn on, but if others need the illusion that the girls they have to pay actually want to have sex with them, I understand. I used to be that way when I was younger too so I know how tough it can be to finally accept, I still know men my age and a similar physical state telling themselves the girls they pay want to see them, I don’t need to think like that to have my fun.

  87. There’s nothing hot about that.  That’s gross and disgusting.  I don’t want to be kissing and fucking some chick who just licked some other old greasy fat guys asshole for money when they didn’t want to.  Jesus Christ wtf?  Women I fuck beg to do shit for me.. Why the fuck would I settle for that shit?

    Agree entirely. First time I’ve ever been scandalized by BD’s blog.

    “chemistry”.  They talk about it likes it’s some magical force that they’re looking for..  spoiler alert it isn’t..  I bring that shit to every single date.

    100%

  88. @Marty McFly Just comment on it and then move on with a another thread i.e. “I’m sorry to hear that (brief pause).. so you said you like dancing; you must go several times a week!?..”

    Sounds too abrupt. “Sorry your brother died, now do you like to dance?”

    In such situations I was usually more gradual, along the lines of “That’s so sad. Thankfully, I never had to suffer such a loss. However, [a less severe thing] did happen, and I had a chance to re-evaluate my views, in particular to learn to appreciate [a related positive thing]”. Now after showing a bit of vulnerability but without being seen as a crybaby, you have a safe topic to proceed.

    In case of a tragedy that didn’t appear to have left a great impression on the girl, I have a story of disrespectful and somewhat comic behavior of people at a funeral that I once encountered. Why not show that the concept of respect isn’t alien to me.

    Finally, the best way of getting out of such a situation is not to get into it in the first place. That’s where the classic technique of speaking in statements rather than questions shines. You see a tattoo, what a nice pretext to touch her. The tattoo bears a name. You say, “That tattoo must have a symbolic meaning to you”. She doesn’t feel pressure to divulge any information, and if she doesn’t, you just stop pursuing the topic, guessing that it must be painful. Or maybe it’s the name of a local celebrity and you can proceed with the kino plan. Or maybe the topic is indeed painful, but she sees you as a kindred soul and feels she can open up to you, from which point it’s trivially easy to further build closeness.

  89. I still know men my age and a similar physical state …

    Well, don’t let yourself turn into a pathetic ugly old slob, then. It’s not inevitable. In addition to the fact that you might be able to have sex with women other than desperate crack addicts and junkies, you might derive a range of other benefits from losing 25kg of viscous fat and having the occasional shower. You never know, give it a try!

  90. You never know, give it a try!

    I’m in my late 60s, and have health complications. I’ve lived a very healthy life but some of these things are outside our control. I do know and I think perhaps my doctors know a little bit more about this and my situation than you.

    My days of not having to pay ladies are over, but that’s ok. I’ve accepted it and can enjoy being with sugar babies instead. It’s good to see when others have accepted this too and can acknowledge that paying for girls to sleep with you is not so bad if you look at it from the right perspective and can get off on them doing what they have to do. I prefer that to the girls that pretend they enjoy it, but others here disagree, and that’s ok.

  91. As an older man that’s heard and seen it all over the years I have just come to accept my situation and chosen to make the most of it.

    That’s not the part I have a problem with. The part I don’t like is that you’re turned on by the fact these women are repulsed by you and are clearly only fucking you for the money and no other reason whatsoever.

  92. That’s not the part I have a problem with. The part I don’t like is that you’re turned onby the fact these women are repulsed by you and are clearly only fucking you for the money and no other reason whatsoever.

    At first this was not the case, but I came to accept it and then, yes, eventually became turned on by this. I’m fortunate that this happened because even the best actors aren’t going to make me believe they want me. I can still go down on these girls and turn them on and get them off sometimes too, but of course they’d prefer a younger, better looking guy to be doing it.

    If a girl is fucking for money, she doesn’t want to be there, because if she did, she’d be there without payment. I prefer to not delude myself, nor do I want them to pretend, I prefer to see the girls that are more authentic, and this does turn me on.

    Most men may not be as unfortunate looking as me so the delusion might be easier to believe, but if they are paying then it means the girl wouldn’t be there otherwise. I understand most men insist on deluding themselves of this, because most men want to feel like the girl actually wants to be there for more than the money and might require it in order to actually enjoy themselves, I take the opposite approach and just embrace the fact that she doesn’t want to be there if not for the money.

  93. @ Pete Why do you prefer sugar babies over other hookers? I am also curious, per meet  per hour how cheaper sugars in average?

  94. Firstly, I’m so glad you banned JOTB before you posted this. God help us if we had to sift through his rants on this one!

    Plus a lot of hookers and escorts are very different among themselves. Some are 100% biz while others are normal chicks who just use it as a side job for more income.
    This is a classic mistake a lot of guys make: to lump all chicks in the same category and not pay attention to the current woman at hand.

    This! Why everyone thinks their limited experience of things that are sometimes really only opinions with zero experience is the gospel truth will never cease to amaze me. There is an art to getting amazing experiences out of hookers and there is a different sort of art to getting it out of SB’s. It’s just like Game in a lot of ways. Same same but different! 😀 Have some fun out there guys for god’s sake.

    When she has sex, she puts on a show. She doesn’t enjoy it at all. It’s just a job to her. She either can’t enjoy sex at all, with anyone, or she has to go find “normal” guys to have sex with so that she can enjoy sex.

    Which is why I have to pull you up on this one BD. I agree with most of what you say about hookers. But I think you are going too far with this sort of statement. You admit you have no experience with real hookers. You might know a few, but seriously I don’t think by your own standards this would be enough to make such a blanket statement. As a guy who’s has sex thousands of times with more than 300 different hookers I can tell you for a fact that some of them do enjoy it. Not with every, and I would even say most guys. But often with lots of guys. I’ve known hookers who gave up the job because they had enough money or finished their degree and got a normal job etc but then went back to it because they missed the sex. Different countries, different cities. There are so many variables. Vegas is the worst place in the world for hookers. 95% of everywhere else in the world is SO much better than there. Then places like Thailand are so completely unique they really deserve there own class altogether. Thailand is better than SB is many many ways.

    I have had some of the most insane off the wall fun times with hookers. Sexual experiences I would never have dreamed of or been able to have if I didn’t venture down that path. There is an art to it though and there are whole forums of guys sharing info that makes a big big difference to the type of session you might have. If you think you can pick one chick off some listing and go fuck her and you know what hookers are like then you are mad. It’s just not the way the world or any other thing works. Same here.

    Absolutely. I read one of the classics on polyamory in America, and some case studies made me want to gag. The poor guy had to take part in weekly committee meetings to see if his other partners agreed to let new partners into the circle. A bit like doing contracts for government agencies.

    Polyamory is not swinging. They are loosely related but totally different. 98% of swingers are not polyamorous and have one partner who they are madly in love with. They just enjoy fucking other people together or separately. Sometimes they might have to check with their partner before fucking someone else. Many times they wouldn’t. They might just tell them later or show them the video! 😛

    Unless you are a swinger and know other swingers you won’t have any clue what they are like. Most of them would never even tell their closest friends or family what they are doing let alone be part of a documentary or some sort of article. Its an extremely secretive scene.

     

  95. Sounds too abrupt. “Sorry your brother died, now do you like to dance?”

    In such situations I was usually more gradual, along the lines of “That’s so sad. Thankfully, I never had to suffer such a loss. However, [a less severe thing] did happen, and I had a chance to re-evaluate my views, in particular to learn to appreciate [a related positive thing]”. Now after showing a bit of vulnerability but without being seen as a crybaby, you have a safe topic to proceed.

     
    Yep, that’s sounds good and as long as you keep it that brief its ok but the problem is that most guys would end up trying to connect too deeply with a person who you just met in a coffee shop, who was a perfect stranger up until five minutes ago (or however long you were chatting to her) who you now want to get out on a date. Most guys won’t know when to reign it back and then just start getting too heavy with the empathy, thus killing the vibe. 
     
    In my experience, acknowledging it briefly and then moving on to fluff subjects in a polite way, shows her that your sorry and that you understand she probably doesn’t want to discuss it in detail there & then. 
     
    Now if you found that out on the first date, then you can go deeper into her feelings for her sibling and your own experiences which would really resonate with her and build a connection.
     
     
     

  96. Pete

    In my opinion the main difference is that SBs have some sort of attraction and the money is appreciated. If you are a young girl with an older guy fetish and get money for a new dress then what’s not to like?

    But if you have to pay a girl to do something specific, then I think that would be prostitution.

    Some would say that there is a blurred line here but if the girl ain’t wet, and cash is changing hands, then IMHO, that’s a hooker.

  97. @ Pete Why do you prefer sugar babies over other hookers?

    For many of the reasons listed in the article, also they are cheaper, or rather more time for the same price.

    I am also curious, per meet  per hour how cheaper sugars in average?

    per meet about the same but an hour with a hooker gets me many more hours with a sugar baby, sometimes all night.

    Although I meet them for a coffee first time we meet, most people looking would just think it’s a girl meeting with her dad or grandfather. I’ve had many not follow through but that doesn’t matter.

    They will go the sugar baby route over the escorting route I think because I’m reliable, and safe and consistent with my payments each week. It’s also why they are willing to do alot of things for me mmmmmmm yes.

    In my opinion the main difference is that SBs have some sort of attraction and the money is appreciated.

    If the money were just appreciated and not a requirement of the relationship existing or continuing then most guys wouldn’t pay it. Or are the men here seeing sugar babies just paying them to show their appreciation out of the goodness of their hearts?

    When people genuinely want to do something, they don’t need to be paid for it, they’d happily do it for free or in fact pay to do it.

    But if you have to pay a girl to do something specific, then I think that would be prostitution.

    If you’re paying a sugar baby to be there or sleep with you, then you are paying her for something specific.

  98. the problem is that most guys would end up trying to connect too deeply with a person who you just met in a coffee shop

    Trying more than she does, that’s the problem. Connecting at a deep level is great, but only if she’s the one doing the effort and you’re following along and encouraging her. If she’s willing to open up to you, that means you did things right. (Of course, there’s always a risk of becoming a friend, a confidante, but not a lover, though with experience that’s not hard to avoid.)

  99. Kind of expensive in the US. In Europe P4P can be accessed at normal cost, without having to go on sites, waste time in email, dates, and all the related bullshit.

    In Germany every city has several FKK clubs, cost is around 50 eur cover charge, plus 50 per fuck. The 50 cover you make up for in drinks, food, spa etc. as its all included. Like a nightclub/bar/restaurant/day spa that you can go and chill at, but with naked girls walking around. You take your pick and go upstairs, thats 50 eur per pop. Totally worth it. Who would waste time with sugar babies when that is an option?

    Plus, it solves logistics challenges for married guys if you cant take you SB home.

  100. I’ve answered that in great detail in my books, but the summary answer is that then my wife is in charge of my sex life and that’s unacceptable. What if she doesn’t want to swing anymore? Then I’m monogamous. What if she doesn’t want me to fuck a certain woman that I find attractive? And so on.
    Swinging makes a lot of people very happy and I’m glad it works for them, but never for me. No, I like to go out into the world by myself and have sex with whomever I like without having to check in with another person. Full-on Alpha Male 2.0

    While I totally agree with you that swinging is definitely not the right choice for everyone and there is zero need to try it if you want an Alpha 2.o lifestyle.

    What I’m surprised about, is that you seem to indicate that somehow if you are a swinger you give your wife or GF all the control. If you’re Alpha 2.0 why would you do that? What would you do if Pink Firefly decided you couldn’t have FB‘s anymore?? Why does being a swinger mean you can’t “go out into the world by yourself and have sex with whomever you like?” You’re putting artificial restrictions on being a swinger that are just not there. As an Alpha 2.0 you can be whatever sort of swinger you want. And if your girl doesn’t like it you just walk away? Not much different to anything else you teach.

    My GF tried to put similar restrictions on me when we started being open and swinging and I just said no. I’m going to fuck whoever I want whenever I want. She then said ok can you just tell me first and I said ok. If it works I’ll try, but if not I’ll tell you afterward. End of story, no issues so far!

  101. If the money were just appreciated and not a requirement of the relationship existing or continuing then most guys wouldn’t pay it. Or are the men here seeing sugar babies just paying them to show their appreciation out of the goodness of their hearts?

    Most normal Joe sex is transaction based.  Women over 35 usually make you wine and dine them to the tune of 100’s-1000’s before they let you sniff that pussy.  Then you must continue to “spoil them”.  But that’s not why we come here.  This is about getting laid for almost zero by putting some effort into your look and personality.  Having sugar babies is no different and can still go along with that goal.  In my little experience with talking to these women I can say the amount I would spend (vast majority of sex is already transaction based) would still be a lot less than the normal Joe spends on dating women over 35. 

  102. You admit you have no experience with real hookers.

    Incorrect, I have had sex with women who were hookers, but I did not pay them. At least two that I remember, one in particular. I have had no experience paying hookers for sex.

    You might know a few, but seriously I don’t think by your own standards this would be enough to make such a blanket statement.

    That’s fair. That was just my experience with those particular hooker FBs.

    As a guy who’s has sex thousands of times with more than 300 different hookers I can tell you for a fact that some of them do enjoy it.

    Yeah but that’s just statistics. Sure, if you fuck 300 friggin’ hookers, I’m sure that statistically speaking some of them are going to like it. The question is, is that the norm?

    What I’m surprised about, is that you seem to indicate that somehow if you are a swinger you give your wife or GF all the control.

    Swinging means the two of you fuck other couples as a couple. Therefore your wife has a very high degree of control, yes.

    If you’re Alpha 2.0 why would you do that?

    A full Alpha 2.0 would not. A partial or aspiring Alpha 2.0 might though. As I said, anything is better than monogamy.

    Why does being a swinger mean you can’t “go out into the world by yourself and have sex with whomever you like?” You’re putting artificial restrictions on being a swinger that are just not there.

    Incorrect. If you can go out and fuck any woman you want, whenever you want, and your wife/GF can’t say shit about any of it, then you’re not a swinger. You’re in an OLTR instead. If you call yourself a swinger just to help your wife/GF save face, then that’s fine, but that’s not what you are and you are the one changing the meaning of the word.

    My GF tried to put similar restrictions on me when we started being open and swinging and I just said no. I’m going to fuck whoever I want whenever I want. She then said ok can you just tell me first and I said ok.

    Yeah, that’s an OLTR, not a swinger relationship. (Thank god.)

  103. In my little experience with talking to these women I can say the amount I would spend (vast majority of sex is already transaction based) would still be a lot less than the normal Joe spends on dating women over 35. 

    There’s a difference between paying for dates and paying sugar babies. While some women will prostitute themselves for dates most usually enjoy spending time with the guy they are dating because all they are getting in return is the date itself, which means it’s time spent with him.

    As soon as you pay the girl cash though, then there is no room for denial as you are paying for her company, and if she wanted to be there you wouldn’t have to pay her. The argument wasn’t what is cheaper, paying sugar babies is probably cheaper for most men. The difference is the sugar baby is there for the money, if she wasn’t, you wouldn’t have to pay her, a woman you’re dating is generally there because she enjoys spending time with you.

    Although, if you are taking them on more extravagant dates than any other man would, then there is still a good chance she’s just prostituting herself for the experiences and would rather be spending her time with another man if not for the extravagant dates.

  104. As soon as you pay the girl cash though, then there is no room for denial as you are paying for her company, and if she wanted to be there you wouldn’t have to pay her. The argument wasn’t what is cheaper, paying sugar babies is probably cheaper for most men. The difference is the sugar baby is there for the money, if she wasn’t, you wouldn’t have to pay her, a woman you’re dating is generally there because she enjoys spending time with you.

    You have no experience with the sugar daddy thing from the people I know and from the profiles I read.  They make it very clear they want to enjoy spending time with you, going on trips, snuggling, cuddling, watching movies and etc.  Almost all list they must be attracted to you.  many have a age requirement.  Some only want old dudes because that’s what they’re into.  It isn’t just about the sex for many. Last one I talked to invited me to attend a concert (spending time with me) she already paid for.  I would have paid for a few drinks and some food then fucked her afterwards in the parking lot just like the other women I date from POF or Match.  No money would have changed hands I can promise that.  That sound like prostitution to you?  I’ve talked to other guys with the exact same situation who rarely ever pay women they meet on there unless it turns into a regular thing.  But they actually enjoy each others company.  You’re full of shit. 

  105. I would have paid for a few drinks and some food then fucked her afterwards in the parking lot just like the other women I date from POF or Match.  No money would have changed hands I can promise that.  That sound like prostitution to you?

    No of course it’s not. I was clear about that. If you’re not paying her it’s not prostitution and chances are she actually wants to be there. Your reading comprehension skills leave alot to be desired. Where did I ever say that if you weren’t paying the girl it was prostitution? I didn’t. I was quite clear.

    The only exception would be if you were taking her on really extravagant dates and she was only there for the date/experience and not to be with you. That could be considered a prostitution mindset I suppose, and I was clear about that too.

    If you’re paying her money though it’s a totally different story.

    I’ve talked to other guys with the exact same situation who rarely ever pay women they meet on there unless it turns into a regular thing.

    If they’re paying them money, it’s prostitution and they don’t really want to be there, as I’ve already explained above. Otherwise they wouldn’t have to pay them.

    You’re full of shit.

    You’re arguing points I never made.

    I am talking about the girls that are paid. Like the ones the author of this article is paying. If they truly wanted to be there with him as fuck buddies, he wouldn’t have to pay them. He pays them because they wouldn’t be there otherwise.

  106. Yeah, that’s an OLTR, not a swinger relationship. (Thank god.)

    Ok we are really just talking terminology then. For me, I think swinging is separate from being Alpha 2.0 or 1.0 etc. You can be an Alpha 2.0 swinger, an Alpha 1.0 swinger, a beta swinger or a complete cuck swinger. I’ve seen all of them. The cucks are terrible. But as you have often said a beta swinger is much better than a beta who’s monogamous. Lots of them let their wives run the show, but they still have a lot of fun. Most swingers are either alpha 1.0’s or betas just like the rest of society.

    But while doing swinging might add an extra few complications to deal with there is no reason at all to give up any part of being Alpha 2.0 if you do it. Its all about your frame and sticking to your lifestyle like you would in any OLTR.

    Plus there are advantages as well. If you like a lot of variety and you have a hot wife/GF then you are going to get to have sex with a lot of hot young women you might have trouble getting (other than SB) if you weren’t a swinger. Which is why I love it.

  107. You spent 10 years in the seduction community.   And your end game is to pay sugar babies a bit less than other guys?

    You’re very concerned with efficiency.  Do you consider much of your seduction time was spent inefficiently at this point?

    Had you put more time into actually getting good at game, at this point in time you’d be able to chat up the cute girl at the grocery store, hook her interest, and bang her that night.   This would be ingrained to the point of simple habit, and sugar baby websites would be nowhere on your radar because you’d have zero need.   Are you upset at your late-30s self for not stepping up, and instead hammering away for years on end about your online game “shortcuts” that have no real lasting value?

     

  108. “seduction community” lol.
    Do you see lions in the jungle attending weekend bootcamps?

    If you had a society of Lions living in their mom’s basement and playing video game all day and night they would.. 

  109. “seduction community” lol.
    Do you see lions in the jungle attending weekend bootcamps?

    What a nonsensical straw man lol 

     

  110. If you had a society of Lions living in their mom’s basement and playing video game all day and night they would.. 

    Yes quite.

    I doubt these basement dwellers do much seducing so perhaps we should call it the “incel community”.

    These dudes need a 2 grand bootcamp to be able to talk to a 4 in a bar?

    I have visions burning in my brain of a meetup cell discussing latest “techniques” to bed women.

    Not to say that some of this works but surely it must start with self improvement?

    “Seduction community” lol

     

     

  111. Plus there are advantages as well. If you like a lot of variety and you have a hot wife/GF then you are going to get to have sex with a lot of hot young women you might have trouble getting (other than SB) if you weren’t a swinger. Which is why I love it.

    You can do that without being a swinger. Just get your hot wife into a threesome (or wing-woman scenario).

    You spent 10 years in the seduction community.   And your end game is to pay sugar babies a bit less than other guys?

    After reading my blog for years, do you seriously think that’s my endgame?

    C’mon man. You’re not stupid, so don’t act like it.

    You’re very concerned with efficiency.  Do you consider much of your seduction time was spent inefficiently at this point?

    No.

    1. Back when I was doing nothing but normal game I had more time and less money, so what I was doing was more congruent for my lifestyle at the time.

    2. I do not want to be in the position where the only way I can get sex is by paying for it, as I clearly explained here.

    3. You’re acting as if 100% of the sex I receive today is pay-for-it sex. Not the case.

    Had you put more time into actually getting good at game, at this point in time you’d be able to chat up the cute girl at the grocery store, hook her interest, and bang her that night.

    Incorrect on multiple levels and a vast oversimplification. How many super hot younger women are hanging around my usual grocery stores? How many hours of time does it take to do a single SNL daygame lay on just one girl? And what is the failure rate? And so on. Either you’re trolling or you really don’t understand daygame very well.

    Are you upset at your late-30s self for not stepping up, and instead hammering away for years on end about your online game “shortcuts” that have no real lasting value?

    Yes, I’m so upset with myself I punch myself every morning. Isn’t that obvious?

    You’re the same guy who said I used my time on this blog to spam people and repeat myself. If you disagree so much with my lifestyle choices, I would suggest you go read another blog. Thanks.

  112. You can do that without being a swinger. Just get your hot wife into a threesome (or wing-woman scenario).

    True. And we do. But its way way harder to get young hot single girls than attached ones. They are known as Unicorns for a reason.

  113. True. And we do. But its way way harder to get young hot single girls than attached ones. They are known as Unicorns for a reason.

    Again, your terminology is way off from mine. A) it’s not hard to get hot young single girls as long as you put in the necessary effort, B) when you’re married/with an OLTR it’s way easier to get hot young single girls than it is to get hot older single women, and C) hot young single girls are not called Unicorns. But let’s drop the terminology discussion and move on.

  114. Yes, Sugar Babies are prostitutes, but they usually do not realize it making themselves delusional , and this is what makes them better for the Girlfriend Experience, GFE, or Passionite Experience, if they are your FBs.  You do not need to pay anyone if they want to be with you. Dating and spending more money, even if it is indirectly and not direct or pay for play on her, than she spends on you makes her into a prostitute whether or not anyone realizes it or not, be that the John Customer, usually the man or the receiver of payment for services rendered, usually the woman. If she spends more money on you directly or indirectly that makes you as a man a prostitute or Jigalo. Black Dragon found out as all men will that as you get older, you must pay for it if you want a physically beautiful Very Young Woman, be that at age 30 or age 60 or whatever age that happens to each individual man as he gets older. I may have more later.

  115. I was browsing through the “sugar lifestyle” subreddit, and from casual inspection it appeared that the sugar babies thought that sugar daddies “should” be in their 30s and 40s. A sugar daddy in his 50s or 60s was regarded as kind of icky and certainly something that justified the sugar baby asking for more money. Wondered if anyone had noticed that.

    Also, there were women claiming they got allowances of $6,000 a month for four “meetups” per month, which just seems insane to me.

  116. Black Dragon found out as all men will that as you get older, you must pay for it if you want a physically beautiful Very Young Woman

    They may not want us, but they do want our money, and that is how we can get them to do all the things they don’t really want to do for us mmmmmm hot

    A sugar daddy in his 50s or 60s was regarded as kind of icky and certainly something that justified the sugar baby asking for more money.

    Yes if we are paying them then they are there for the money and the more turned off by us they are the more money they will want to compensate. If you only have to pay a little bit then they’re not truly turned on by you because they would be there without money if they were, but they’re probably not repulsed either. If you are older though then it takes more money to get their young little tongues licking all over your matured body, yes very sexy.

     

  117. Most Sugar babies ain’t any more prostitute than about 90% of married wives out there.
    But they have many advantages over those prostitute wives.
    I’d rather the sugar babies any day.

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