When you’re a man who views the world in a rational, objective, and fact-based way, you live a great life, but sometimes you run into scenarios where being right isn’t very fun.

That’s why so few people are objective and fact-based in their worldviews; it’s too just painful and emotionally disturbing to admit that the world isn’t at all what you want it to be, or, more importantly, what you were told it is. Fantasy, Societal Programming, Disney, and nostalgia is fun even if they’re all total bullshit. Reality is sometimes anything but fun.

About a year ago I wrote a big article here about my family, including my parents whom I describe in detail. Feel free to take a look at that article to give this article context.

To summarize, my parents are both in their mid to late 70s and have been traditionally, monogamously married for 47 years(!). They have five children of which I am the oldest. Because long-term monogamy doesn’t work, many of their friends and couples they have had in their social circles over the decades have gotten divorced. Yet, my parents were always held up as the rare example of marriage actually working. Married for decades, raising kids, working, retiring, and still staying married. Neither of my parents ever cheated on each other to my knowledge. So yeah, their marriage worked…

Until it didn’t. Last summer, to the shock of almost everyone, they got divorced. Yes, in their 70s, after 47 years of marriage.

My dad actually told my mom last year, “I guess Caleb was right all along. I guess monogamy doesn’t work.”

Like I said, sometimes it sucks being right.

Why did they get divorced after so long? I’m going to just summarize this because I don’t want to get into my parents’ personal lives too much.

It was a combination of two factors. One was my mom’s fear of mortality. Some old people really get scared of death when they get older and make radical shifts in order to alleviate this fear. My mom is a positive, happy, extremely high-energy person (I get a lot of these aspects from her) and she really wanted to go do a lot of big, fun, crazy things before she died. Rightly or wrongly, she felt she could not do this with my dad.

That brings us to the second reason, one I’ve talked about on this blog many, many times. That is that my dad lost his Alpha Male edge and drive as he aged and when he retired about 15 years ago. For most of his life, he was an Alpha Male 1.0, with all the positives and negatives that are included. As such, he was motivated and driven, and thus attractive and exciting to my mom.

That changed when he retired and got older. He lost his drive and motivation for life, and started just taking it easy, just like most men do when they get into old age.

Both my parents are adult enough to admit they got complacent in their marriage and didn’t address these problems when they should have. Thus, over many years, these problems festered and got worse, which is what happens when you don’t address them (I was guilty of this myself during my first marriage). Finally, my mom looked up her high school sweetheart on Facebook (yes, from 50 years ago) and left my dad to go be with him, as per the statistics that show 70-80% of divorces are initiated by the female. This all happened early last year, but I wanted to give it a little time before I talked about it publicly.

Since I know monogamy doesn’t work in the long-term, I had much less of a problem with all of this than some of my siblings. To me, my parents are behaving normally. Long-term sexual monogamy doesn’t work. Humans were never designed for it. As I’ve shown many times, if you try to force it, eventually you’ll crash. This crash can mean one of three things: A) a divorce, B) cheating, or C) a horrible, soul-sucking marriage that just goes on forever.

It was the fact that my parents were monogamous for 46 years that makes them unusual, not the fact they are now getting divorced. Now they’re just returning to biological normalcy, as painful as that is.

On the flip side, many of my siblings and other family members are (or were) very hurt, angry, or sad. This almost always the result when you expect Disney, which is always a silly thing to expect, including from your Western parents, and including from yourself.

I love both of my parents and support them in their new lives, even if I disagree with certain things they’ve both done. I also have to be lenient since, as I’ve said before, when you’re “old” (certainly in your 70s), many of life’s rules change, just like I talked about when I discussed Gene Simmons getting traditionally married.

As always, there are those TMM defenders who will say that my parents’ marriage “worked.” If you saw how unhappy, uncomfortable, and awkward things were and are for them and their loved ones, you would not say this. Getting divorced is the opposite of fun, and I would know. Getting divorced in your friggin’ 70s is an additional set of problems on top of that. If you still think it “worked” you really need to read this article.

Long-term sexual monogamy doesn’t work, folks. Not sure how many times I have to keep repeating this. The exceptions to the rule are out there, but they are exceedingly rare. Even I thought my parents were the exception, and I was wrong, which means I was correct more than I could know.

As I’ve said many times, just because you know a couple who are still traditionally, monogamously married and happy after five, or ten, or 15 years doesn’t mean shit. Statistically that only means they haven’t cheated or gotten divorced yet (and maybe one of them has cheated; again, that’s statistically likely; you just don’t know). If they live in the Western world, they will eventually cheat or get divorced. Just give them time.

I hate that my parents went through this. I hate that anyone has to go through a divorce. Perhaps someday, society at large will finally accept other long-term pair-bonding models (like mine, though there are others) that are more realistic and conducive to how humans were actually designed.

Until then, we will all have to continue to suffer through the horrible pain and inevitable outcome of traditional relationship models that no longer work, and haven’t for decades.

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99 Comments on “My Parents Got Divorced

  1. >  one of three things: A) a divorce, B) cheating, or C) a horrible, soul-sucking marriage that just goes on forever.

    I thinking cheating is likely so common it should be called “normal” (assuming either of the pair have any SMV).

    I believe it’s my buddy Magnum that has told me BD teaches something like open relationships.  That is making “cheating” normal.

    But… over and over I can’t get around the jealousy thing.  I think most people cannot.

    So I always revert to the stereotype of French/Italian marriages.  The appearance of trad marriage… With non-open, covert lovers on the side… With perhaps an “understanding.”

    It seems too personal to comment on your parents… But I think an older woman in your mother’s position should have “gone on more trips with her GFs,” even if that was some other dude.

    Economically better, better for friends/family, etc.

    At the end of the day, none of the modern options beat “The French Marriage” in my eyes.

     

     

     

  2. Not surprising indeed but still, sorry to hear that about your family.

    I have never believed in TMM ever since my memory goes back as a child, it always felt completely incongruent with reality that I could observe amongst adults. I am INTP and I have always struggled understanding how anyone could be in such denial to believe in such a grotesque bullshit. This probably is the reason indeed:

    That’s why so few people are objective and fact-based in their worldviews; it’s too just painful and emotionally disturbing to admit that the world isn’t at all what you want it to be, or, more importantly, what you were told it is. Fantasy, Societal Programming, Disney, and nostalgia is fun even if they’re all total bullshit. Reality is sometimes anything but fun.

    My parents are now in their 70’s too. I don’t remember exactly when they married, I think 37 years or more, but their relationship began 52 years ago or more, first on and off, later they married. Their marriage has included cheating with huge dramas from my mother, probably cheating was both sides. And it’s been in the “soul crushing” phase for easily 2 decades. The main factor binding them together is money, they would both loose too much lifestyle and don’t feel like it’s worth it. I think they are totally wrong to put material things first and they would still be well off enough financially if they divorced. My mother also seems to be on a mission to ensure that I remain the only child and inheritor of my father. I will always consider him my true father but I now have serious doubts that I actually am his biological son. Confronted my mother recently about it and she confessed that she isn’t sure he is 😉

    Happy TMM forever doesn’t exists folks, it’s a pure mythical fantasy. This is what real TMM marriage is like in easily 98% of the cases.

  3. But… over and over I can’t get around the jealousy thing.  I think most people cannot.

    This also… Really not a problem for me, and I really struggle to understand how it could be such a problem for anyone.

    Unless maybe you are a someone who inconsistently uses condoms.

  4. I just reread you article about your family and found it very interesting. A bit more stuff about your brothers (especially #Brother 1 xD), perhaps in a context of categorizing “men who get laid” in general rather than high-level Alphas in particular would be great.

  5. Damn, I am sorry to hear that, Caleb… it is disturbing that your mum just moved on like that after being with your dad for 47 friggin years. A high-school sweetheart? Are you kidding me? I would be seriously pissed off if I was your dad. Hope he is fine.

    About the male ageing… What do you propose can be done to avoid betaization when you get old? Can you control it or is it just a natural biological process with men? Are you going to remain Alpha 2.0 by the time you are 70 or will you shift into Beta 2.0 or something like that?

  6. yup. the 50 year high school sweetheart thing blows me away. keep repeating it! can’t hear it enough.

    Whatever subconcious level where I can get to where nonmonagamous is “normal” and “no big deal.” and the standard operation

  7. Hmm. My parents got divorced when I was two, back in Australia in the 1960s when it was still unusual and shameful. At school, about 10% of kids came from “broken homes,” but they were always my closest friends. I always thought our group saw the world as it was, that we grew up more quickly, that we didn’t have delusions about parents being powerful, perfect beings.
    My mother divorced her second husband a few years ago now, almost a decade, after more than 30 years. Good riddance, the guy was an asshole.

    Funny, the same pattern. For most of their marriage, he was a violent, controlling Alpha 1.0. Something changed over the last ten years, all of a sudden he was a lot meeker and she had a lot more power. Everyone seemed to think that their marriage had evolved, got better. And then she suddenly divorced him.

    Kinda traumatic for the brothers and sisters from that union. I remember when one of them was getting very emotional about it, I said “You forget. I’ve known what it’s like to have divorced parents all my life.”

    My mother did screw things up financially for her other children, they ended up losing a fortune. Really, it was a pretty selfish thing to do — but then, humans are basically selfish creatures.

    BD, best wishes to both your parents and all your family. Hope it works out as well as possible for all concerned.

  8. My dad actually told my mom last year, “I guess Caleb was right all along. I guess monogamy doesn’t work.”

    I know that realization all too well.  When you are so right and being right kind of sucks.  And to hear those words from your father like that, wow.  And how absolutely crazy is it that your Mother carried feelings for her high school sweetheart through almost 50 years of marriage to another man.  If that doesn’t open some men’s eyes I don’t know what will.  Women always have a plan B and even plan C to replace you it seems, so why ever get oneitis for a woman.

  9. My Dad is in his late 50 and a classic Alpha 1.0, and surprisingly, his TMM kinda/sorta works, to my surprise.
    The reason it does I think:

    – my Dad keeps himself in great shape, works out, and most likely has high Testo

    – my parents have a ton of friends they hang out all the time, so they get their social and emotional “fix” form other people. I jokingly call them “emotional swingers”.

    – Both my parents have a super hard work drive comparable to BD’s. If they could they would work 24/7 and rope everyone they know into business. They both have their own 1 person businesses.

    Combined, my folk survived as TMM so long because they just do not waste time on the relationship, but rather it is something that happens to them.

    Insistence on monogamy aside, they are a good example what to do.

  10. Hey Nash(DaysofGame),

    You here too? Haha!

    I thought you has disavowed* Blackdragon** and his system entirely? 😒

    *Similarly like when you diss Torero just because Krauser*** says so.

    **FYI Krauser disagreement or at least “his point of view” regarding BD’s system is that its just not for seriousness.

    *** For long period of time I thought that you are just Krauser’s bitch. You regarding him as the “Elder”****

    **** Weirdly ebough, you generally agree with him, except for one thing, regarding Peterson which is on Krauser thought about him as liar, fraud and intellectual charlatan.******

    ****** While shockingly I’m completely agree, even though I’m usually 50:50 with Krauser’s view on any other topic.*******

    ******* My main agreement is that because Krauser get this downstream idea about Peterson from Voxday, a man whom he highly praised for Intelligence Dominance(which you don’t agree with, but I agree with).

    PS. Pardon my INTP’s style of comment.

  11. Finally, my mom looked up her high school sweetheart on Facebook (yes, from 50 years ago) and left my dad to go be with him

    Lol

  12. And I remember your mom was pestering you to get TMed because all these ORs you are on about are stupid and childish! The irony sometimes.

    Hope they both find their way fast. When I started reading the post, I thought it was your dad who made the move.

    I don’t really believe any long term TMM in Western world is a success, no exception. There are so many parameters that can fuck this up and make it crumble, it is impossible to avoid this. And I don’t consider low sex drive/boring people success stories.

    Women always have a plan B

    They don’t always have a plan B. It comes naturally, primarily from the betaization of the man.

  13. My Dad is in his late 50 and a classic Alpha 1.0, and surprisingly, his TMM kinda/sorta works, to my surprise.

    Are you really sure your dad is monogamous? I wouldn’t think of him much of a 1.0, while surviving so long without getting around some extra pussy without your mom’s knowledge. And if he did then it’s not TMM.

  14. Sorry to hear about all the drama BD-to your point, divorce always sucks even in the most amicable situations.

    It’s funny how many women I knew/dated from my 20’s are all getting divorced now and they all pushed HARD for TMM back then.  I did not oblige them of course and most quickly married a guy right after me.  One in particular just started flirty texting me once she announced she was splitting from the guy she picked up weeks after me.  He was/is as beta as they come and has rabid oneitis for her.  He has no friends other than her and their 3 kids.  Now she’s bouncing out and he’s fucked, facing child support for 3 kids and probably alimony too (she only works part time).  I’d feel sorry for him if he wasn’t such a moron to begin with.

  15. And I remember your mom was pestering you to get TMed because all these ORs you are on about are stupid and childish! The irony sometimes.

    Touchée!

  16. Dad is TMM‘d and over 70….opposite case, though. He remains very important to his household, as both his wife and younger son are sick and need his support, including financial. It’s not sustainable, which is a whole different can of worms, but his usefulness means he’ll be TMM‘d until one of them dies (and if it’s her first, I’m guessing he’ll find another).

    I am gratified that after 30 years, his wife still worships the ground he walks on…..she straight up told me that although she’s had many surgeries “down there” she does whatever she can to please him (TMI, but go Dad). This is a 30 year game of Dread…..30 years ago, after Dad divorced my mother and they got together, she got a call from another woman sniffing around, ’cause Dad’s quite the catch in that little pond. Yep, 30 years of Dread, as he’s kept himself together.

    Point being, while yeah it’s about the love, it’s not all about the love.

    Bummer about the hurt feelings and drama in your family. Kudos for seeing things clearly.

  17. BD,how does your father handles the divorce?You said that during a breakup,most men feel some sort of reverse NRE,when they go insane because of the scarcity.

    Did he initiated no contact?

    You also said that one of the reason of the divorce is that your father has become beta from alpha 1.0,but if he remained alpha,his marriage would not last this long.Because he transformed into a beta,this marriage lasted this long,if he kept his alpha frame his marriage will last way ,way shorter than this.

     

  18. Not sure open marriage is going to solve the cheating aspect in regards to affairs (sex with a deep emotional connection not just scheduled sex couple times a month)..  Unless having an emotional connection and love is also allowed.  A lot of people who have affairs do so because there is an emotional connection established then they proceed to sex as a natural progression..  Or the other way around but eventually there is that connection in many cases.  Like your mother’s.  Are you saying that if your dad and mom would have had an agreement to be able to go out and have emotional connections (along with love lust passion) with other people it would have worked?  In your arrangement are either of you in agreement to be able to pursue these types of relationships, other than sugar babies or daddies?  I don’t see how scheduled sex with FBs will satisfy most people.  Especially women.  Humans are emotional creatures. 

  19. It’s not “fear of mortality” that means actually living life to the fullest. Or, maybe it should be, and we should all be doing “crazy shit” the whole time. None of us are getting out alive anyway!

    Good for your mom.

    Anyone telling her (including your Dad) that it’s just time to check into a nursing home and eat pea soup for 2-10 years and play canasta, wasting the precious gift of life, can go get f%#ked.

    Life is short. Live it up.

  20. But how come divorce rates are still so low (like 1%) in a number of Eastern cultures, including in members of those cultures that live in the US?

    Is it just that social pressure keeps the divorces low?  Or is it that they are unattractive and unskilled and could not cheat even if they wanted to?

    I have noticed that among Filipino Americans, Indian-Americans, Muslim Americans, etc. the divorce rate is just 1-2%.

    Plus, getting divorced after 70 is very uncommon outside of the ultra-wealthy.  Mainly because old people have a variety of health needs and being alone makes that harder.

     

     

     

  21. BD

    Not sure open marriage is going to solve the cheating aspect in regards to affairs (sex with a deep emotional connection ..)

    BD,your system is superior to monogamy,but when girls fuck other guys on the side,they get feelings for them.

    Oltr ,where the girl fucks FBs on the side,is pretty much a fantasy,because the majority of girls will get feelings for the other guys,breaking the rules of the OLTR.

    The only way OLTR can work is if the women is over 30,this way her chance of fucking somebody on the side is very small due to ASD,but if she is <30,you dont have with her an OLTR,because she has mltrs,if she fucks other guys.

    Overall,i just find your blog last week and is very cool!

  22. But how come divorce rates are still so low (like 1%) in a number of Eastern cultures, including in members of those cultures that live in the US?

    Because the majority of them are poor and cannot afford a divorce or living on their own.In Serbia,most couples marry young,like 23,24,then they buy a house,with a mortage that last for 30 years,they pay huge interest rates on that mortage,so they are screwed.Marriage in the Eastern cultures (Asia or Eastern Europe)is more of an economical entity.Also religion plays a big factor,especially on Catholicism,where divorce is forbidden.

  23. I believe it’s my buddy Magnum that has told me BD teaches something like open relationships.  That is making “cheating” normal.

    But… over and over I can’t get around the jealousy thing.  I think most people cannot.

    You can’t get over the jealousy of a nonmonogamous relationship but you can you get over a woman cheating on you?

    You’re not being rational.

    So I always revert to the stereotype of French/Italian marriages.  The appearance of trad marriage… With non-open, covert lovers on the side… With perhaps an “understanding.”

    That’s an open marriage.

    It seems too personal to comment on your parents… But I think an older woman in your mother’s position should have “gone on more trips with her GFs,” even if that was some other dude.

    My mom didn’t desire sex. She wanted a different kind of relationship. Remember, women are not men.

    What do you propose can be done to avoid betaization when you get old?

    http://blackdragonblog.com/2018/12/27/not-losing-your-edge-as-you-age/

    http://blackdragonblog.com/2016/09/05/life-will-look-im-70/

    http://blackdragonblog.com/2013/09/01/aging-and-the-alpha-male/

    http://blackdragonblog.com/2015/10/05/my-journey-with-testosterone-replacement-therapy-trt-part-5/

    Can you control it

    Of course. None of this stuff will happen to me when I’m in my 70s. Watch.

    Are you going to remain Alpha 2.0 by the time you are 70 or will you shift into Beta 2.0 or something like that?

    Alpha 2.0, all the way until I die, even if I’m in a walker and live past age 100. The frequency of stuff like women on the side or hours per week worked will decrease of course, but never go to zero. Not even close.

    And how absolutely crazy is it that your Mother carried feelings for her high school sweetheart through almost 50 years of marriage to another man.

    She did not “carry feelings” for her ex for 50 years. My parents would never have lasted that long if she had.

    She loved my dad, and only my dad, for 95% of the marriage. The desire just came back at the tail end when things were not going well.

    If that doesn’t open some men’s eyes I don’t know what will.  Women always have a plan B and even plan C to replace you it seems, so why ever get oneitis for a woman.

    Now that is true.

    And no, this won’t open most men’s eyes. “Well, that won’t happen to me because I know what I’m doing…”

    Marriage and divorce will continue.

    My Dad is in his late 50 and a classic Alpha 1.0, and surprisingly, his TMM kinda/sorta works, to my surprise.

    Based on your description, I would bet $1,000 your dad has cheated on your mom at some point, which would not be monogamy.

    Your mom will ditch the high school hookup in no time at all.

    That is one of the theories among some in my family. Possible. I guess we’ll see.

    And I remember your mom was pestering you to get TMed because all these ORs you are on about are stupid and childish! The irony sometimes.

    Yup.

    It’s funny how many women I knew/dated from my 20’s are all getting divorced now and they all pushed HARD for TMM back then.

    As I always say, Women love GETTING married. Women hate BEING married.

    BD,how does your father handles the divorce?You said that during a breakup,most men feel some sort of reverse NRE,when they go insane because of the scarcity.

    He’s not happy, but he’s handling it well. He’s filling his schedule with lots of activities, which is good. PF and I spent time with him over the Christmas break. I still see him on a regular basis.

    Did he initiated no contact?

    No. He’s a 78 year old beta male so he doesn’t follow my dating/relationship advice nor would he ever want to. He avoids her when she comes to town, though, which I think is good.

    You also said that one of the reason of the divorce is that your father has become beta from alpha 1.0,but if he remained alpha,his marriage would not last this long.Because he transformed into a beta,this marriage lasted this long,if he kept his alpha frame his marriage will last way ,way shorter than this.

    Where did I say if he remained Alpha 1.0 his marriage wouldn’t have lasted as long? I don’t know if that’s the case but it’s possible.

    What is more likely if he remained Alpha 1.0 forever is that he would have cheated (killing the monogamy) but my mom, being well over 60 and already married to a financially stable man whom she loved and was still attracted to to some degree, would have complained profusely but would likely have put up with it, as I talked about here.

    But that’s just a guess.

    Neither betas more Alpha 1.0s can make long-term monogamy work.

    But they’ll keep trying like idiots.

    A lot of people who have affairs do so because there is an emotional connection established then they proceed to sex as a natural progression..

    Some, but not most.

    Are you saying that if your dad and mom would have had an agreement to be able to go out and have emotional connections (along with love lust passion) with other people it would have worked?

    No. Never said that anywhere.

    In your arrangement are either of you in agreement to be able to pursue these types of relationships, other than sugar babies or daddies?

    No. That’s against the rules of the OLTR. Dating someone else while you’re in an OLTR means you’re not in an OLTR, you’re in an MLTR.

    I don’t see how scheduled sex with FBs will satisfy most people.  Especially women.  Humans are emotional creatures.

    1. Millions of people in long-term open marriages would disagree with you.

    2. Often the woman in the marriage isn’t the one having any side-sex because she doesn’t want to. And the older she is, the more likely this is to be true.

    But how come divorce rates are still so low (like 1%) in a number of Eastern cultures, including in members of those cultures that live in the US?

    Religion, culture, and societal pressure.

    I have noticed that among Filipino Americans, Indian-Americans, Muslim Americans, etc. the divorce rate is just 1-2%.

    Incorrect. Filipinos are horny maniacs and have high divorce rates. Indians have very low divorce rates though, yes (though Indian men cheat). I have not researched Muslim divorce rates in the US but I imagine they are the same (low divorce rate but lots of cheating).

    BD,your system is superior to monogamy,but when girls fuck other guys on the side,they get feelings for them.

    I’ve had numerous long-term MLTR relationships where this did not happen.

    As I’ve said many times before, you have opinions and concerns, but I have data.

  24. I don’t see how scheduled sex with FBs will satisfy most people.  Especially women.  Humans are emotional creatures.

    1. Millions of people in long-term open marriages would disagree with you.
    2. Often the woman in the marriage isn’t the one having any side-sex because she doesn’t want to. And the older she is, the more likely this is to be true.

    No I hear you brother..  This whole concept is fascinating..  I know others in this type of relationship but they usually are swingers..  never seen what you’re doing so I would have to see this data from the millions you’re talking about..  Either way I’ll definitely be reading everything you post on this…

  25. All the people talking about how an OLTR marriage won’t work seem to forget that an OLTR marriage is not expected to last until death do us part. Sure it’s a hope for the marriage to last forever, but it’s not expected. The marriage is prepared and legally supports an easy virtually consequenceless divorce because it’s considered highly probable that the pair bonding will not last forever. If it lasts for ever, then great, but it’s considered a bonus, not a mandatory outcome to be qualified a successful OLTR marriage.

     

    One of the most probable way an OLTR marriage ends as far as I understand, is after many years, when the woman gets bored of this relationship and want to try something else. She may then indeed get feelings for an FB or some other man who seemingly embodies the different type of relationship she is longing for and she decides to divorce in order to go live that different relationship.

  26. Caleb:

    This was a tough read actually, and I could feel your hurt and pain reading it which also surprised me as you usually have a veneer of toughness when you write.

    Hope everyone in your family adjusts to the new ‘new’.

     

     

     

  27. Read the first comment by a “manosphere” member. Aren’t you surprise by how unevolved, and crooked really, are the rest in the manosphere, so called “relationship experts” who still march on the monogamy-drum ? BD is the only one that has a system for OPEN relationships. The rest of the “manosphere” shits in its pants, for lack of a better word. That’s because each of those people have ONE gf or ONE wife only, and couldn’t fathom themselves otherwise. They’ll tell you everything that’s wrong with you, how to be the ideal man, how to get up to Zeus status but they won’t tell you that in the end…every relationship falls.

    People divorcing after 47 years together is breathless.

    Somebody else also brought up the fact that Bezos is divorcing after 25 years, a thing we learned about just yesterday. (read somewhere that while he doesn’t have a prenup he may have a postnup agreement, which is not confirmed).

    Bring this man some laurels, buy his books, signup for his classes. BD deserves it !

  28. If breakups mean long term sexual monogamy doesn’t work then by that standard open relationships don’t work because they also result in breakups.

    There are two things being conflated here. Monogamy and getting legally and financially entangled with a woman are two separate things. It’s important to warn men of the dangers of legal marriage but monogamy without those legal and financial entanglements is perfectly workable if that is what a man really wants.

    Both non monogamy and monogamy can work it’s just a matter of personality, preferences and goals.

    While I will remain non monogamous and childfree I think it’s unnecessary to bash monogamy especially since it creates a stable environment for raising kids.

  29. If breakups mean long term sexual monogamy doesn’t work then by that standard open relationships don’t work because they also result in breakups.

    The difference is that, like I mentioned above, women have a plan B and plan C, and will be getting a new dick in a matter of minutes or days where as the man will be devastated, without female attention or pussy and being most likely a beta, will not be getting pussy soon, in monogamy.

    But in non-monogamy, the women still have plan B and C, but when they leave the man, he shrugs, fucks a couple or few of his other women and moves on with life, without the empty loneliness, and lack of pussy that would have drove him insane when she leaves him in Monogamy.

  30.  Finally, my mom looked up her high school sweetheart on Facebook (yes, from 50 years ago) and left my dad to go be with him.

    Doesnt bother you this technique of “monkey branching” that women have?

    Its more normal and less harsh to the other person to have a divorce if things dont work and then to search for a new boyfriend.I bet that if she did not find that ex,she will still be married.

    In my opinion ,its very weak to stay with someone for “comfort”,while you search for a new boyfriend,its the biggest lack of loyalty and this happens every day and most women do this.

    The society will go down because men let women do all kind of bad things and primarily its the men’s fault.WEAK.

  31. BD,could you make an article about “how to not be affected or how to be less affected emotionally by a woman”.Many Puas and mgtows are afraid to get emotionally involved with a women,no matter if its monogamous or non monogamous,because they are bothered by the way women are(very deceptive) and know that the chances are high that he will get dumped by her,and she will not even care.

    I know that you have done in the past an article about “how to not get oneitis” and its useful ,but it will be great if you will write more on this theme.

    Many men are red pill and take action to not get screwed by women,but emotionally is very dififcult to do this,even if you have a lot of hot Fbs on the side or big goals.

  32. Doesnt bother you this technique of “monkey branching” that women have?

    Its more normal and less harsh to the other person to have a divorce if things dont work and then to search for a new boyfriend.I bet that if she did not find that ex,she will still be married.

    It can bother us but what are we going to do about it?  Learn and adapt.  Don’t do monogamy.  And it is absolutely less harsh to us as men for them to end it first and then find someone but you just said they are weak.  So wouldn’t a weak person make sure they don’t put themselves in a position to ever be alone?

  33. my dad lost his Alpha Male edge and drive as he aged and when he retired about 15 years ago. For most of his life, he was an Alpha Male 1.0, with all the positives and negatives that are included. As such, he was motivated and driven, and thus attractive and exciting to my mom.

    The idea that you have to be a dancing monkey alpha in order to keep your wife after age 65 just seems… exhausting to contemplate. Especially when you consider the quality of the sex you will receive from your presumably equally old wife at that point. Seems like it would be a lot less work, at that point, to get a Sugar Baby, and the quality of the sex you’d get for your money/effort would be a lot higher.

  34. will be getting a new dick in a matter of minutes or days where as the man will be devastated, without female attention or pussy

    I don’t know one man personally that that has happened to and I have about a dozen buddies who have divorced not to mention all the dad’s of my kids friends.  Shit I have a 400+ lbs buddy who was fucking immediately..  Some of the most reprehensible men I have ever met went right to getting laid.. If you want to get laid and aren’t a serial killer or child molester you will find someone willing to fill that need. Not saying it doesn’t happen…. But usually it’s because the guy just doesn’t want to worry about getting sex or moving on while they’re going thru such a difficult situation.

    So I don’t see that as a benefit as someone who has gone thru the entire process and watched many many others also go thru it. Doesn’t mean open marriages aren’t good it’s just that I wouldn’t count that as a benefit.

  35. I think it’s unnecessary to bash monogamy especially since it creates a stable environment for raising kids.

    How exactly does the length of the list of sexual partners affect raising kids?

    Even that’s, however, not the big thing. The big thing is:

    Monogamy is a choice, a restriction voluntarily placed upon oneself. What exactly does one stand to gain by making such a promise?

  36. Read the first comment by a “manosphere” member. Aren’t you surprise by how unevolved, and crooked really, are the rest in the manosphere, so called “relationship experts” who still march on the monogamy-drum ?

    Nope.

    Most men will cling to monogamy (with all the cheating, drama, conflict, deception, breakups and divorces) like clinging to the Titanic as it sinks slowly into the ocean.

    Emotions usually win over logic.

    If breakups mean long term sexual monogamy doesn’t work then by that standard open relationships don’t work because they also result in breakups.

    Utterly incorrect. Nonmongamy, as I teach it, is not meant to last the rest of your life, nor are you expected to. Read this as just one example. With long-term monogamy, it is expected to last “the rest of your life” at least to some degree.

    It’s important to warn men of the dangers of legal marriage but monogamy without those legal and financial entanglements is perfectly workable if that is what a man really wants.

    Only if he doesn’t care about long-term happiness. Read this.

    Both non monogamy and monogamy can work it’s just a matter of personality, preferences and goals.

    It depends on how you define the word “work.” If you’re a total pussy beta who needs a mommy or a hardcore Alpha 1.0 who needs to control your female partner at all time, and that is more important to you than your own long-term consistent happiness, then yeah, serial monogamy is fine. Again, read this.

    While I will remain non monogamous and childfree

    Yeah, you say that now. You’re still young. Wait until you’re well over age 35, then come back and tell me that.

    I think it’s unnecessary to bash monogamy especially since it creates a stable environment for raising kids.

    Incorrect. Read objection #5 here. (Based on some of the arguments you’re making, I also recommend you read the rest of that article.)

    Doesnt bother you this technique of “monkey branching” that women have?

    No. I accept women for how they are biologically wired, just like I accept men the same way. Both men and women are biologically wired to do stupid and hurtful things, and I don’t love it, but I accept it and I don’t let it bother me.

    Its more normal and less harsh to the other person to have a divorce if things dont work and then to search for a new boyfriend.

    I agree 100%, and I think my mom handled this divorce incorrectly.

    I bet that if she did not find that ex,she will still be married.

    Maybe, maybe not, but either way the marriage would be a complete failure. She’d either be divorced and alone or still married but very unhappy. Major fail either way.

    The society will go down because men let women do all kind of bad things and primarily its the men’s fault.

    Oh, society will go down for several different reasons, not for that one. But I completely agree it will be men’s fault. Fuck yes. I’ve been saying that for at least 10 years.

    The difference between me and you is that A) this collapse doesn’t bother me emotionally in the least because I’ve emotionally accepted it (and don’t feel sorry for the men who instigated it) and more importantly, B) I’ve developed a lifestyle where such collapse won’t seriously damage my financial or sex life (Alpha Male 2.0).

    Let 90% of men go down with the ship. Cool with me. I’ve moved on.

    Many Puas and mgtows are afraid to get emotionally involved with a women,no matter if its monogamous or non monogamous,because they are bothered by the way women are(very deceptive) and know that the chances are high that he will get dumped by her,and she will not even care.

    That’s why you should date multiple women at all times instead of just one, and never combine your finances with one. Problem solved.

    The idea that you have to be a dancing monkey alpha in order to keep your wife after age 65 just seems… exhausting to contemplate.

    That isn’t what I was implying. You should remain Alpha for the rest of your life because that will make you happy. Do it for yourself, never for a woman.

    Especially when you consider the quality of the sex you will receive from your presumably equally old wife at that point. Seems like it would be a lot less work, at that point, to get a Sugar Baby, and the quality of the sex you’d get for your money/effort would be a lot higher.

    Agree.

  37. he was an Alpha Male 1.0, with all the positives and negatives that are included. As such, he was motivated and driven, and thus attractive and exciting to my mom.

    Yeah, since (no matter how consciously) their mind is in always-on Secure an Efficient Tool For Yourself mode, plus they get self-esteem by a feeling of association with the man’s ranking (I have this worthy tool for me therefore I am worthy),…

    #nofun

    Finally, my mom looked up her high school sweetheart on Facebook (yes, from 50 years ago) and left my dad to go be with him

    Just a handful strings of Basic programming:

    IF no other option at the moment
    THEN stay until you get option (while keeping your antennae on at full power)

    IF option found
    THEN leave.

  38. As for the long-lasting marriages that “work” :

    1) Some four fifths of these couples are divorced within the same household, or factually, while not socially and legally, separated.

    For instance, if they occupy a roomy enough residence, they’ll take a story each. This not in the way you wrote about some 2 weeks ago. They take a story each after mutual repulsion has become entrenched in the relationship. It’s a thing done for the sake of appearances, not from start to prevent the relationship from decaying.

    2) Many look remarkably more cheery and… brisk the weeks following their spouse’s passing away.

     

  39. @Nash

    Open relationships don’t “make cheating normal”, they change it into not cheating.

    Many times the only thing that’s not puny about people is their pride. They call “cheating” if the other party has sex with a third party, because that stings their pride, while they easily take a lot of attitudes that, if we were to be fastidious (or reasonable) are much more deserving of the “cheating” label (what about smiling to you while they are cursing you inwardly? Lol).

    To want him/her to have sex only with you is as sane and sound a way of thinking as to want him/her have a beer, or dance, or go watch a sportsball game only with you.

    (Expert tip: telling her she can go get shagged by whoever whenever it may improve her day will either make her do it or not, but it will surely make her more aroused by you. Especially if you don’t just say it but if you mean it and believe it.)

    I think an older woman in your mother’s position should have “gone on more trips with her GFs,” even if that was some other dude.

    Economically better, better for friends/family, etc.

    At the end of the day, none of the modern options beat “The French Marriage” in my eyes.

    Many thanks for this ode to pretence. As tough we haven’t enough of it and need yet more.

  40. Yeah, you say that now. You’re still young. Wait until you’re well over age 35, then come back and tell me that.

    I definitely plan on being in an OLTR at 35 and onwards after a decade of playing around.

     

    There is a small chance my decision on having kids might change depending on whether I have met my financial goals and had my crazy adventures.

  41. >> You can’t get over the jealousy of a nonmonogamous relationship but you can you get over a woman cheating on you? You’re not being rational.
    @BlackDragon

    No… I said COVERT affairs.  If I think I am in a monogamy rel (which I am not), and there are any signs she is straying… I leave her.

    To pull off a “French Marriage” takes a lot of maturity.  You have to own it.  It’s your responsibility, not your partner’s.  As I see it, if you need to share your affair (“get it off your chest” or “just be honest”), it’s quite often because you can’t handle owning it.  It’s weakness, and that is a 2nd blow to the relationship.

    If jealousy is an INCREDIBLY STRONG FORCE, and it will destroy relationships, AND YET… monogamy doesn’t work (there we agree)… you have your affair and you DO NOT SHARE IT with your partner.  Once again, best solution I have seen.

    I’m sure guys can do open rel.  Most cannot, however.  I choose not to.  I fuck girls with husbands/BFs, but I would never have  “primary” partner I knew was fucking other guys.

    >> “So I always revert to the stereotype of French/Italian marriages.  The appearance of trad marriage… With non-open, covert lovers on the side… With perhaps an “understanding.”
    – Nash
    >> That’s an open marriage.
    – BlackDragon

    Again, you don’t seem to get the idea of COVERT.  Open marriages (or the fuckshow of “being poly”) requires that the affairs are acknowledged… for most people, that means a degradation.  Probably inter-personally, and definitely in the community.  Two strikes.  Won’t work for most people.

    There is this idea… very common in what I perceive as “upperclass” marriages where there is AN UNDERSTANDING.  That is, the wife knows he is “working late” a little too often, but as long as he doesn’t rub it in her face, as long as he does his duty to her, she “looks away.”  This preserves the marriage. It is a proven thing.  It works for many people… because it avoids jealousy (and the INSULT of telling your partner you are fucking someone else).  This is not hypothetical.

    None of the options are pretty.  To each his own… but nobody is doing anything new here.  Everything has been tried 1MM times.

    If a longterm marriage has benefits for you… I think “The French Marriage”, which requires you have your affair out of sight of your wife/community (which takes skill and maturity), is the best example in the SMP.

  42. No… I said COVERT affairs.  If I think I am in a monogamy rel (which I am not), and there are any signs she is straying… I leave her.

    You said, and I quote: “With non-open, covert lovers on the side… With perhaps an “understanding.” What is that understanding? That she might fuck another guy on the side. Whether or not you know about it, if that’s the understanding, then it’s an open marriage. It’s not exactly the type of open marriage I have, but that’s immaterial.

    If what you’re recommending is a marriage where you can covertly fuck other women but she can’t ever fuck any other guys covertly or not, that will not work in the Western world, as I already addressed here.

    If instead you’re changing your argument, then you’re now saying to your future wife, “Look wife, you’d better not cheat on me, but if you do, make sure I don’t find out, since we have an understanding. But if I find out, I’m divorcing you on the spot!!!”

    If that’s seriously the technique you’re recommending (ha!), that’s probably one of the worst ways to frame a long-term marriage I can possibly think of.

    In all seriousness, if the possibility of your future wife perhaps getting sexual with another man is so terrifying to you, I would strongly suggest never settling down with a woman at all (open, cheating, or monogamous), since her fucking another guy is a huge statistical risk in any of those 3 scenarios.

  43. Correct me if I am wrong but I feel like your parents did marry out of reason not as much because of true feelings or love for each other. You said your dad was already married once but his 1st wife died. Your mom is now with another dude from her past. If we  put 1 and 1 together then it appears as if both might have still been stuck in the past. I hope your dad gets well soon since it’s harder for men at that age to get through it especially when your wife left for someone else.

    However, one more thing though: I can understand why your dad lost his “edge” when he reitred. I mean he was in a classic marriage, he must have made some decent money and since he was faithful to your mom and not looking for other women to screw with, what reason did he have to stay in his Alpha frame anyway? Chances are he wasn’t as attracted to your mom anymore as well as he used to when he got older for obvious reasons. So if you have a man in his 60s who is retired, who doesn’t need money and doesn’t screw other women, then you will naturally lose interest in many things.

    Seriously if this was the year 2008 and you knew all the things you know now then already, then what would you have told to your dad in order for him to be happy?

  44. Correct me if I am wrong but I feel like your parents did marry out of reason not as much because of true feelings or love for each other.

    Incorrect. They did indeed marry for love, way back in 1971, just like most people. My mom was a nun and actually left the convent in order to be with my dad, which was a really big deal back then.

    You said your dad was already married once but his 1st wife died.

    Incorrect. They were divorced. He had been divorced for about five years before he met my mom.

    If we  put 1 and 1 together then it appears as if both might have still been stuck in the past.

    Incorrect. My mom didn’t get dissatisfied in the marriage because of the desire for anything in her past (and if that were the case, they would not have lasted 47 years, as I keep saying). She became unhappy because my dad changed. And she didn’t handle it well.

    I hope your dad gets well soon since it’s harder for men at that age to get through it especially when your wife left for someone else.

    Correct. It’s been very hard on him.

    However, one more thing though: I can understand why your dad lost his “edge” when he reitred. I mean he was in a classic marriage, he must have made some decent money and since he was faithful to your mom and not looking for other women to screw with, what reason did he have to stay in his Alpha frame anyway? Chances are he wasn’t as attracted to your mom anymore as well as he used to when he got older for obvious reasons. So if you have a man in his 60s who is retired, who doesn’t need money and doesn’t screw other women, then you will naturally lose interest in many things.

    I don’t disagree with any of that, and my dad has implied similar things, but I also don’t consider any of that as an excuse for complacency and unhappiness. Men need to have higher standards for their own lives, both in youth, middle age, and old age. I realize that 95% of men don’t have higher standards, but I think they should. Just an opinion.

    Seriously if this was the year 2008 and you knew all the things you know now then already, then what would you have told to your dad in order for him to be happy?

    I actually was telling my dad this stuff 10 years ago. Dad, find a passion, find a drive, do something, etc. He didn’t listen because he didn’t really care. As you say, he was complacent and old. He was normal.

    But normal isn’t good.

  45. Thanks BD

    wow both your parents would been used to the idea of counseling from their own work life

    did they do any marriage counseling before the divorce or was it just a sorry it is over thing ?

  46. “With non-open, covert lovers on the side… With perhaps an “understanding.” What is that understanding? That she might fuck another guy on the side. 
    — BlackDragon

    Let’s start at the beginning, where we agree.  Do attempts at monogamy *often* lead to “cheating?”  Yes, we agree there.

    In my experience, an “open” relationship means it’s OVERT. If it’s not OVERT/VERBAL (=pre-approved), then affairs are considered “cheating.”  “OPEN” means some kind of verbal agreement that one/both will see other people.  That works for some people — and I assume it works 1000% for you (probably less than 1000% for some of the girls you date, but that’s irrelevant).

    I argue that JEALOUSY is an unbeatable force for MOST people.  YES, we should see the world through rationale analysis.  Yes, yes.  Agree again.  But that doesn’t mean you’ll “feel” good if you have any evidence of your partner fucking someone else.  (If you’re in a rel where you don’t feel good… you must have a strong motive to do so.)  And it’s a step WORSE if they need to tell you about it… it’s dumb, and/or graceless.  I’d argue (since there are more graceful solutions), that it’s insulting.

    NEW CONCEPT: If you have some **vague suspicious**, you will suffer less than if you know for certain, and even less than if your partner is talking about it, and even less if you catch them in the act.  This might be subtle for some people, but it is not for me.  Lance Mason would say “if it’s far away, it has less of an impact.”  Lance is a genius at this level. I agree with him… you don’t have to.

    So… the UNDERSTANDING is essentially traditional wisdom.  Imagine a grandmother, telling her married daughter… “yes, dear, he might take a girl on the side from time to time, and this too is part of marriage.  He takes care of you.  You have a family… don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.”  Timeless solution.  The best I’ve seen.

    The UNDERSTANDING already exists.  And I think you know it.  Many reject this model.  But that doesn’t mean that many married couples don’t know “something is going on,” but don’t probe (and certainly don’t brag about it)… as the marriage has value for them enough that they don’t want destroy is because “she fucked the pool boy” or “he banged a cocktail waitress on a business trip.”  The reason those are “classic examples” is because… they are classic examples.  Again, I think you (or at least some of your readers) know all this.  This is what I mean by “an understanding.”

    If my “wife” (again, I’m a player, I’m not married) said, “Honey, I love you so much… but I want to fuck Chad from work:” In some scenario (assuming we’re sexless), I might be okay with that… but I would think she was clueless cunt to announce it.  And if she said it in front of my friends (making me a public cuck), I would congratulate her on becoming a divorcee.  “Hey Chad, she’s all yours… good luck, pal.”

    This ^ is SLEDGE HAMMER HONESTY, (c) me 2019.  Some people like it… usually only 1/2 of a rel.  The other 1/2 hates it… or may tolerate it (out of weakness, fear or other motives).

    For most people… the more explicit it is… the more it’s intolerable.

    FULL POLYAMORY (the saddest most ridiculous version of this, IMAO) is full of one-sided love for the VERBAL OPENNESS, the explicit open rel.  I have watched this community try to survive jealousy and hurt… I have no evidence they have (beyond isolated examples).  That community is full of fools trying to do “the impossible,” and they suffer for their insane liberal “openness.”  Mostly the guys… as they think it sounds good, but can’t get dates of their own, and their pink-haired GF announces she has a date with “green hair boy,” and her primary tries to “be big” and hates every minute of it.  Sad.  “Openness” run a muck.

    So… what I am pointing to, is something you already know exists.  You’ve all seen it in the relationships around you… you’ve been out to dinner with a couple where you “had a hunch” that one/other was having an affair.  So did they.  So did everyone. There is that UNDERSTANDING again… we all know it.  And it’s an ugly truth, but it works.  It’s less insulting than other solutions.. so it works (better than most alternatives).

    And the reason those relationships survive… is because it is NOT explicit.  If it was, except for “swingers” (which do happily exist, but are rare), that would be a very uncomfortable dinner.

    I’m not challenging your model, man.  Have at it.  I am sure it works… for you.  And for other men.  Many of which I respect.

    But the JEALOUSY CRITIQUE is valid.  I think it applies to MOST people.  And the “French Marriage” addresses that.  And I like it.  It’s proven.  It’s sophisticated.  It’s respectful.  It’s smooth.

    I do a version of it as a single guy… I date multiple women… I have had several LTRs, and overlapping LTRs, with other dates happening as well… and I tell exactly NONE OF THIS to any of the girls.  No promises… but no SLEDGE HAMMER HONESTY either.  I think it’s smoother.  The girls know, they have a hunch…

    I like it better.  You don’t have to.

  47. BD said :

    Religion, culture, and societal pressure.

    OK, but then that means that LTMM works within these cultures even to this day.  I see Indian and Muslim men who are complete betas with zero Game, but get married and truly never have to worry about divorce or their kids being taken from them, even if their entire marriage involves living in the US.  The woman totally stops putting any effort into her looks after marriage, and hits the wall hard, but still.

    What happens with these communities in the US?  Will feminist culture start hacking away at them?  Or will they persist as a time capsule of Marriage 1.0 (at least the foreign-born generation)?

    The extent to which they know that they can get married without years of fruitless dating, and that they will not experience divorce and loss of their children to the extent that they give it no more thought than being in a car crash, seems, in a way, like a major luxury.

    No FBs or OLTRs, of course, but as they don’t know anyone who does that, they don’t pine for it.

    Your take, BD?

     

     

  48. Lately I’ve disagreed with BD on a couple of things, but just because I disagree doesn’t mean that I discredit him out of hand.  

    And the biggest reason not too is how damn HONEST he is.

    I didn’t see this one coming, but holy shit!  I’d say that it’s shocking but it’s really not. Relationships are only stable until circumstances change.

    People change.  My parents have been married 50+ years and their marriage hasn’t been good since my dad got cancer 15 years ago.  He’s not the same.  She’s downright angry with him for it.  It sucks to watch.

    Thank you for sharing, Caleb.  You didn’t have to.

  49. @ A

    I’m speaking as a muslim american. BD is right; Because of Religion and social pressure. I’m in US for more than 2 decades. We were both virgins when we got married. Most of the things people are talking  here  about western girls  in terms of them cheating, having plans B, C, etc., are completely irrelevant for my wife. If you force her to have sex with another men she would kill herself but wouldn’t do it. she actually prefers not to work mainly because of this reason, to not to see other men. she prefers to work from home. I cannot talk for millions of other muslim people in US but in our social circle all families I know are like us.

    So, I think only females left walking on earth who may still be loyal to men are religious muslim women. I lived in the 99% Catholic country for 4 years in Europe;  women were cheating  (with very small exceptions). the statistics were showing 77% 2 decades ago.

    in terms of sex, we scheduled 2 times a week in our calendar and it’s still great. it’s the main thing that make us connected/bound. we are in 40s. she takes care of herself well and still has great body. she got some feminism virus leaving in west this long but she still calls me my name and sometimes master; 50-50, as in our culture. So, I make the important decisions and let her decide other stuff like what to cook for dinner or kids stuff. I almost never cook, I help with salad etc.

    I just checked how things are going back in my home country, I came across an NIH paper published just recently showing girls there in colleges(mostly modernized/westernized part) rate of girls who ever had intercourse is still around 1-2%; virginity is just so important even for nonreligious , very westernized families. and divorce rate is the lowest in OECD countries.

    in my view, I think it was unnatural and hard for us to wait for having sex that long until marriage. i think people should start having sex right after puberty, as strongly encouraged by our prophet, and we need to find a modern version/form of marriage that can facilitate that need, but societies and laws are way off. I’d encourage my kids for that I’ll support them financially if they choose.

    in terms of marriage, I’m on my prophet way(and in a sense BD way), he had 9 women at a time later in his life(in your terminology 9 MLTRs i guess). He was having sex every night. That’s my long term target as well, having sex every night. 9 mltrs would be too much for me though to handle:) I spoke with my wife several times in the past by joking  about having more wifes in the future, she seems to be OK as long as I financially support family, but I never took any action or spoke very openly and seriously. I don’t know how she would react when that day comes yet but it looks like we will be OK. having OLTR is not on the table, she just cannot do that, she may decide to leave or stay, we will see. I’ll most likely just go with temporary sugar relationships. this has no conflict with my religion. I read many stories in Buhari (2nd authentic book after Quran, a Hadis book), how men paid for sex in many occasions  when they were away from their wifes for long period of time for business or wars, etc.(prophet allowed them to pay for sex,(mut’a marriage)). some Sunnis disagree but I follow scholars who say OK for that. I’m no scholar in that field but based on my research it’s OK.

    My model for now is just keeping my current life partner rest of life and have several sugars once I develop more financial freedom. but who knows may be one will develop into something more serious. I don’t discard having kids from another women, once I get multi-million level. As i said society and laws way off but I am sure I’ll find and easy and fair way. I actually love kids:) (although I let woman spend most time with them)

    I admire Caleb for his honesty and I’ll be honest with my wife(s) when I decide to make bold moves. I’m more focused/occupied with my business at the moment.

     

  50. Mike, if your wife did end up having sex with another man, would you consider that as success or failure?

  51. Incorrect. They were divorced. He had been divorced for about five years before he met my mom.

    I see but I got confused because in your 1st article about your family you said his 1st wife had passed away, so I assumed they were still married then.

  52. Could you update this post if your parents get back togheter.
    What do you think are the odds of getting back togheter?

  53. Ignore the Nash guy BD, he’s a known aspy troll who writes purple pill crap on other people’s blogs. If you challenge him he’ll WRITE IN CAPITALS and get into a gamma rage lol.

  54. Ignore the Nash guy BD, he’s a known aspy troll who writes purple pill crap on other people’s blogs.

    Don’t worry, one day he will come to equilibrium.

  55. “how to not be affected or how to be less affected emotionally by a woman”

    Not BD, but I’ll take a crack at this.

    In the “traditional” sense, DSR (dating, sex, relationships) revolve around one thing: Pressure. This is exactly how we are brought up.

    Since their youth, men are pressured to acquire female attention because if they do not get said female attention they will be seen as “low status.” But they are also pressured (by trad-cons and 33+ chicks) to not only promise traditional monogamy, but guarantee it even if chicks can clearly take advantage of them (which has been happening since Women’s lib).

    Since their youth, chicks are pressured by two similar fronts. Their trad-con dads tell them to have as little sex as possible until marriage, then marry a good dude and hope that they remain faithful. And if the chick isn’t faithful, they are seen as a “two-timing whore.” Chicks ALSO face pressure from women’s movements who say that it is an expression of power to use as many boys and men as possible, and if they do not do this, they are “part of the evil patriarchy.”

    In my blog (and the books I sell) I call this nadir “Crush Culture.” For thousands of years, our sexual relations have been determined by pressures announced by unseen forces that have no relevance in our lives. This has caused us to turn DSR into a toxic game of social chess to find out who can take advantage of who faster. If it isn’t that, its a toxic game of social chicken to see who can “crack” first when it comes to being outcome dependent. Like I said this has been a thing for millennia it just hasn’t been pronounced the way it is now.

    Here’s the thing with pressure: It creates emotional stake, and nobody makes good decisions when they are emotional (as you can see from most of the comments on this very post). So in answering your question, you need to look to the sources of pressure. What is pressuring you to develop an emotional stake in female attention? When you answer that, and are able to eliminate that source of pressure you’ll be able to lessen your emotional stake in chicks. You need to detect where the pressure is coming from.

    When it comes to the opposite sex, don’t listen to the walking wounded (since they are the sources of pressure), listen to your body. I know people who can go whole years without sexual release and be perfectly fine. Then there are are people who can’t go 12 hours without sexual release.

    Porn and social media has (probably unintentionally) manipulated this in a very unnatural way, but that’s another 100 or so lines which I don’t want to write about.

    Chicks generally don’t care about LMS in the abstract. Especially money, since nowadays they make more than dudes in most cases. They DO care about being pressured. Don’t feel any pressure when dealing with chicks, and they won’t feel pressure when you are trying to do stuff with them.

    Divorcing yourself from this “pressure” is what being outcome independent is all about.

  56. I know people who can go whole years without sexual release and be perfectly fine. Then there are are people who can’t go 12 hours without sexual release.

    Cue BD for maligning the former as being low sex drive betas.  Those are the ones most likely to be successful in monogamy, but I wonder how many if they are too lazy or too stuck by social programming or whatever to leave.

    Seriously, I wonder how much of that is situational?  If I’m getting lots of exercise and with someone who’s convienent, my sex drive is switched ON.  If the stars don’t all line up and it’s too much trouble, NBD.

    I read another blogpost by another sphere author that talked about cutting loose dead weight to make room for something better.  Meaning, if you are with someone who’s just not quite right and you find yourself looking around, cut bait RIGHT THEN and free yourself and then up for a better fit.

    I don’t want to be all scarcity mindset laden, but man…it depends a lot on where you live.  There’s a bit of duplicity between assholes like Roush and his pussy paradise, and BD claiming that men are getting laid in cities that are notoriously “tough”, and people like me who live in rural areas but don’t want to move for one reason or another where I can go weeks and not see a lady who’s not 60 pounds overweight.

    It’d be real easy to “settle” around here if you found something decent, and I’d be inclined to do it, except that that turns into first turning the sex off, then watching her get meaner and fatter as she ages.

    I had a conversation with a mid 70s married guy before lunch about that exact subject, and I swear he said “after 40 years what are you going to say that you haven’t said?  A paragraph is a big conversation day!  Plus they get meaner as they get old.”

    Welp…

  57. So what’s wrong with serial monogamy, so long as the guy just keeps his options open by regularly meeting and interacting with women?

    I mean, I’m latino, so the typical pattern is to just sort of play the game like (admittedly) a woman plays it and just, as soon as she gives you any shit, say you’re going to take some time to yourself and go ‘do your thing.’ Or you can just break up, do your thing, then make up.

    I guess you’d say that’s too much drama, but you can just break-up calmly and walk out/leave and ignore any texts they send you.

    If they don’t want to make up, fine, you have a jump-off. If they do want to make up but fucked another guy, and you can’t handle that, again, you have a jump-off. If they do want to make up, you got your jollies and can make up, or you can just downgrade her for a bit and slowly inch back into the relationship again while you get your jollies on the side.

    That ‘life’ is more my homebase for relationships, which is why this system is tough. I guess it’s Alpha male 1.0 ‘I can fuck other people but you can’t’ programming.

  58. So what’s wrong with serial monogamy, so long as the guy just keeps his options open by regularly meeting and interacting with women?

    I guess you’d say that’s too much drama, but you can just break-up calmly and walk out/leave and ignore any texts they send you.

    I think the most easily apparent difference is that in the BD’s system, after the breakups they will return to you.

    I have been practicing it for almost exactly three years, and this has already happened to me three times. They all parted ways with me in 2016 with absolutely no drama and were back in 2018. One I was pestering every couple of months, another pinged me when she returned to the city, one I stumbled upon on a dating site. On an unrelated note, all three have gained noticeable weight, confirming what BD said at some point.

  59. I think the most easily apparent difference is that in the BD’s system, after the breakups they will return to you.

    If you end the relationship on a high note (which you most likely will because the drama pings keep women interested), as long as you keep in light contact with them, you’ll eventually have the option of sleeping with them again when they’re out of the next relationship. That’s happened to me and several other men.

    BD’s system strikes me as the most efficient, with the least amount of SELF delusion. But most people like lying to themselves — at least a little. Guys like the IDEA of freedom while their gf/lover isn’t really free, etc., and that they’re in some sort of ‘secure, committed’ relationship. In reality it isn’t, but the lie is like the alcohol of these relationships, the lubricant.

    I ultimately believe that a life lived without fear of the truth in reality is better than the alternative, so I’m reprogramming myself in this direction.

  60. No. I accept women for how they are biologically wired, just like I accept men the same way. Both men and women are biologically wired to do stupid and hurtful things, and I don’t love it, but I accept it and I don’t let it bother me.

    This has taken time for me to absorb.  I have been full of SP and Disney thinking.    I have to constantly fight against this thinking, as I know that you are right and it will ultimately lead to unhappiness.  I am trying to digest your book and implement its tenets in my life.

    I guess we men must maintain our edge and not slack off until we die.  It is easy to get lulled into a sense of complacency and become less appealing to our partners.  I have no intention of retiring and going for the “easy” life.  I think that we need a purpose in our lives until we drop.   This doesn’t mean that I won’t vacation and relax, but I don’t see the purpose of sitting around and slowly sliding toward the grave.

  61. And I like the IDEA of Bill Gates giving me 0.01% of his money.

    The comparison of lying to alcohol seems apt to me.

  62. Holy shit, all hail BD.

    That one cool chick suddenly flipped out today.

    I’ve previously listed my bf behavior errors (1) seeing her more than once a week and (2) saying shit like ‘i like spending time with you’ and whatever else.

    so literally yesterday I’m at her place (she’s never been to my place, my place is being and is almost finished being renovated) and the you know what isn’t as good as usual. i ask what’s up, she says sometimes memories of sexual assault kind of pop in there — i take this as code as she’s not really that into me and she feels like, well, you know.

    i keep calm. she then starts slightly freaking out about how she broke a lot of rules (sleeping over, cuddling) and how she knows ‘nothing about me’, and how she’s waiting for the other shoe to drop because of her past, and that everyone knows that if ‘it’s after 9 it’s a bootycall.’ (yes that’s when i go over).

    i (i guess stupidly) just reassure her and say it’s fine. this morning it’s fine, after i leave i text that i had fun and she said she really likes spending time with me.

    i ask if she wouldn’t mind me stopping by later after i’m done with my social stuff, and she says she wouldn’t mind at all. then she states that her promiscuity probably freaked me out because we had sex after ‘only’ 3 dates (makes no sense, she’s done way faster, so have i, i don’t give ashit)

    stupidly, i think reassurance is the play. i just say i don’t mind, it wasn’t fast, and that i like her even more after we talk about that stuff

    then she abruptly later says she’s gonna skip tonight and that she doesn’t really want to be with anyone right now and that she’s going crazy and needs an escape.

    so i’m like ‘ok cool, take as much space as you want’

    and then she doubles down saying that i don’t understand, that she’s going to go out on a date and to have fun with my people and that she’s not going to wait around on someone.

    to which i (still not getting it) say that i would’ve invited her but i thought she was sick but she was free to come if she wanted. a bit later i was like ‘oh i get it. that hurts. hope you find happiness.’

    I mean…wow. You really can’t break these rules.

    Thank THE GODS that I perfectly followed the rules with this other 22 y.o. cute chick and she’s still constantly hitting me up and wanting to hang out.

    and Thank THE GODS that on thurs i went on a date with a cute 28 y.o. and set up a day 2 on monday at my place.

    I mean man, I must not have seen the signs. But thank god I had the abundance to just let her go. I saw the 22 y.o. chick.

    Welp, time to get another hawt chick to get in the rotation. I was just blindsided by how sudden it was (to me) and how cold. Women must hate beta behavior that much!

    I will now forever pledge to follow the rules as close to the letter as possible and realize that they must be obeyed. I just saved myself a lot of inner angst by just vaguely sticking to the plan.

  63. stupidly, i think reassurance is the play.

    It’s very possible that the BD thing to do, that is, turning your back on her (temporarily) at first signs of drama, goes against 1) your genuine desire to help her in her hard circumstances and 2) your fear of losing her.

    However, you can’t achieve the former if the latter happens. The way to go is thus self-evident: be the stone-hearted manly man and follow BD’s rules with precision, having women fight for the right to “get you out of your shell”. And only after having gained sufficient attraction, you can slowly start helping her fix her life, if you have an interest in improving the lives of your fellow human beings that is.

    As opposed to the typical white knight who neither really helps anyone nor gets laid.

  64. @ Nash –

    All you did in your last comment was repeat yourself with no new points, so this will be my last response to you on this topic since I don’t like repeating myself.

    So… the UNDERSTANDING is essentially traditional wisdom.  Imagine a grandmother, telling her married daughter… “yes, dear, he might take a girl on the side from time to time, and this too is part of marriage.  He takes care of you.  You have a family… don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.”

    That. Is. An. Open. Marriage.

    It’s not the same type of open marriage I advocate, but it’s still an open marriage. But again, I repeat myself.

    Timeless solution.

    With a 70% divorce rate, therefore it is not a solution. Read this.

    I do a version of it as a single guy… I date multiple women… I have had several LTRs, and overlapping LTRs, with other dates happening as well… and I tell exactly NONE OF THIS to any of the girls.  No promises… but no SLEDGE HAMMER HONESTY either.  I think it’s smoother.  The girls know, they have a hunch…

    http://blackdragonblog.com/2017/08/24/reponses-men-pro-cheating/

  65. did they do any marriage counseling before the divorce or was it just a sorry it is over thing ?

    They’ve had martial counseling before (most long-term married couples have) but I’m not sure if they had any recently.

    OK, but then that means that LTMM works within these cultures even to this day.  I see Indian and Muslim men who are complete betas with zero Game, but get married and truly never have to worry about divorce or their kids being taken from them, even if their entire marriage involves living in the US.  The woman totally stops putting any effort into her looks after marriage, and hits the wall hard, but still.

    What happens with these communities in the US?  Will feminist culture start hacking away at them?  Or will they persist as a time capsule of Marriage 1.0 (at least the foreign-born generation)?

    The extent to which they know that they can get married without years of fruitless dating, and that they will not experience divorce and loss of their children to the extent that they give it no more thought than being in a car crash, seems, in a way, like a major luxury.

    No FBs or OLTRs, of course, but as they don’t know anyone who does that, they don’t pine for it.

    Your take, BD?

    That is a “what’s best for society?” question and I don’t do those anymore because they’re mental masturbation and don’t help you as an individual. Read these articles for my societal views:

    http://blackdragonblog.com/2015/10/12/freedom-and-happiness-or-an-orderly-society/

    http://blackdragonblog.com/2016/02/29/the-deal-with-the-manosphere/

    http://blackdragonblog.com/2012/10/04/the-great-blackdragon-debate-are-open-marriages-and-polyamory-good-or-bad-for-society-part-two/

    Could you update this post if your parents get back togheter.

    Sure.

    What do you think are the odds of getting back togheter?

    Less than 25%; unlikely, but certainly possible.

    So what’s wrong with serial monogamy, so long as the guy just keeps his options open by regularly meeting and interacting with women?

    http://blackdragonblog.com/2017/03/06/advocating-serial-monogamy-men/

    I mean, I’m latino

    That means your drama tolerance is very, very high. Read this.

    The higher your drama tolerance is, the more you will embrace serial monogamy (since monogamy = drama).

    so the typical pattern is to just sort of play the game like (admittedly) a woman plays it and just, as soon as she gives you any shit, say you’re going to take some time to yourself and go ‘do your thing.’ Or you can just break up, do your thing, then make up.

    Does that sound like long-term consistent happiness to you? Read this and look at the Alpha Male 1.0 chart.

    I guess we men must maintain our edge and not slack off until we die.

    Only if you want long-term happiness. If you don’t care (and many men don’t), then you can eventfully slack off all you want.

    As in all ares of life, it’s a trade-off. Get lazy and be less happy, or continue to work to keep your edge and stay really happy. The choice is yours. Most men choose the former.

    I will now forever pledge to follow the rules as close to the letter as possible and realize that they must be obeyed.

    …said right after you were defending serial monogamy.

    Thank you for proving my point.

  66. What is pressuring you to develop an emotional stake in female attention?

    Thank you joelsuf for this insight! Huge aha moment.

     

  67. Nice work BD! I always try to explain to my girls how I think about relationships but they always throw back moral arguments like “I want someone who is faithful” “I think loyalty is very important”.

    I answer them with “is a mother less loyal to her oldest son if she decides to have an other kid?”, referring to the fact you can love multiple people, but that argument gets always countered with “that’s not the same”… I guess it’s VERY hard to explain these views to women…

  68. I always try to explain to my girls how I think about relationships

    Sounds counterproductive. Why would you do that?

  69. Sounds counterproductive. Why would you do that?

    To let them know I will not become their exclusive boyfriend, and to avoid that they get feelings. Just so that they know I like open relationships and I am not a believer in monogamy…

     

  70. To let them know I will not become their exclusive boyfriend, and to avoid that they get feelings. Just so that they know I like open relationships and I am not a believer in monogamy…

    Show, don’t tell.

  71. OK, but then that means that LTMM works within these cultures even to this day.  I see Indian and Muslim men who are complete betas with zero Game, but get married and truly never have to worry about divorce or their kids being taken from them, even if their entire marriage involves living in the US. 

    Not sure about the US or the Muslims. But I’ve worked around a bunch of Indian guys just like the ones you are talking about here in Australia. Some of them who are only like 32 and still had arranged marriages. They have very tight family communities etc and everything looks lovely and great on the outside. But every single one of them I’ve known are the biggest whore mongers I’ve ever met. You get them away on a work conference and they are in the strip clubs and brothels every night banging as many girls as they can get their hands on. And they don’t try and hide it from each other. They all go to the brothel together and then the next day at breakfast they are laughing telling stories about which girls they banged and what they were like.

  72. I’ve worked around a bunch of Indian guys just like the ones you are talking about here in Australia. Some of them who are only like 32 and still had arranged marriages. They have very tight family communities etc and everything looks lovely and great on the outside. But every single one of them I’ve known are the biggest whore mongers I’ve ever met. You get them away on a work conference and they are in the strip clubs and brothels every night banging as many girls as they can get their hands on. And they don’t try and hide it from each other. They all go to the brothel together and then the next day at breakfast they are laughing telling stories about which girls they banged and what they were like.

    Correct. Cheating among married beta Indian guys (usually pay-for-sex like strippers, hookers, sugar babies, etc) is rampant. I see this constantly.

    As always, a low divorce rate doesn’t mean sexual monogamy is working. Long-term sexual monogamy doesn’t work.

  73. I didn’t find BD/s response to Nash to be adequately subtle.

    If I were to try to paraphrase BD’s overarching view, it’s that he has created a system to maximize consistent low drama happiness, and anything that falls short of that is fine for you, but he’s not interested in it, and can explain how other systems fall short.  For instance serial monogamy falls short because you’ll have periods of heartbreak and drama and unhappiness during and for a time after breaking up.  He says that a “don’t ask don’t tell” policy that Nash advocates falls into same category as cheating, and therefore puts the man on edge, which is a type of stressful drama burden, and besides, he’ll eventually get caught and bigger drama will ensue.  I think BD puts “don’t ask don’t tell” into the same category as cheating in a too facile way, with a brief handwave.  They are not the same category.  It’s a different thing.  Even if it’s a matter of nuance, it requires a different category alltogether, and requires dealing with on it’s own terms.  There are DIFFERENT pitfalls and problems with a don’t ask don’t tell relationship as compared to an assumed monogamy with cheating relationship.

  74. Regarding Nash’s model (although I suppose it’s getting off-topic for this thread), it’s about the difference between having to say “I’m sorry I cheated” versus “I’m sorry you found out.”

    This was addressed in the topic about “why women put up with cheating men”.  Nash calls this “THE UNDERSTANDING” (in all-caps).

    But BD, you wrote “show, don’t tell” in on of your responses here. That confused me, I thought you were all for verbalizing this “understanding” open and up-front, in “the talk”? Or did I miunaderstand you here?

  75. But BD, you wrote “show, don’t tell” in on of your responses here. That confused me, I thought you were all for verbalizing this “understanding” open and up-front, in “the talk”? Or did I miunaderstand you here?

    Maybe by the time “the talk” comes around, the woman already pretty much knows what’s what. It’s definitely not a negotiation, it’s just stating something that’s already fairly obvious. If anything, it provides the woman with some reassurance if you tell her at that point you’re into the idea of a long term relationship with her. Just not a monogamous one.

    The thing with explaining because you “want her to understand” is that it sounds like a negotiation, she can raise objections. She probably understands perfectly well, she’d just rather arrange the whole thing on slightly different terms.

     

  76. <blockquote>Regarding Nash’s model (although I suppose it’s getting off-topic for this thread), it’s about the difference between having to say “I’m sorry I cheated” versus “I’m sorry you found out.”</blockquote>

    Did you watch the Mad Men tv series?  The balding guy has frequent affairs, which his pretty wife ignores.  Then one day he has an affair within his office building, and she lays it out to him clear as day.  “I’ve always turned a blind eye to your “late nights”.  But fucking causing sexual drama right here where we live!  I need a divorce”

    THAT is what Nash is referring to.  THAT is don’t ask don’t tell.

    And he’s totally right to claim that everybody knows that THAT is what he is talking about, but is pretending not to know.

     

  77. Maybe by the time “the talk” comes around, the woman already pretty much knows what’s what.

    That, and also consider one simple thing: nonmonogamy is the default, monogamy is an artificial restriction. If you say nothing about the nature of the relationship, and are perceived as a desirable man, the women will assume you’re seeing other women.

    It’s not like you’re carefully leading them to the grand reveal that you’re fucking someone else as well. They believe this from day one (a belief you can ruin by exhibiting beta behaviors). If there’s a grand reveal, it’s their surprise at themselves accepting it without being appalled as they themselves would have initially thought.

  78. It’s unfortunate to hear your parents split, Caleb.

    i can understand your mom wants to do activities your dad isn’t into. But really? Couldn’t they have just worked it out?

    I mean what about after the party is over? I seriously think your mom would go back to your dad at some point once she is done exploring.

    But to go back to your point. I’m with you that TMM does not work. My mom was divorced twice. Though it ain’t fun, statistics have it at 41% chance of divorce on the first merrige and 75% on the second. It’s a no brainer.  But yet again my mom and other folks I know take the risk.

    I’m dating a girl right now who’s been divorced once. She is not really open to the idea of polygamy. But she also doesn’t want to be serious. So go figure. It’s almost like the female population knows subconsciously that monogomy does not work but they just don’t want to openly admit it, as SP has done a good job at brainwashing their conformist minds.

    All the best to you and your parents.

  79. I didn’t find BD/s response to Nash to be adequately subtle.

    Because I’m not subtle.

    Nor want to be.

    He says that a “don’t ask don’t tell” policy that Nash advocates falls into same category as cheating

    Incorrect. I place it into the same category as an open relationship. Just one with a higher level of drama than what I advocate.

    I think BD puts “don’t ask don’t tell” into the same category as cheating in a too facile way, with a brief handwave.

    Because you’re wrong. I don’t consider it cheating, but a higher-drama form of open marriage/relationship. It shares some characteristics of cheating, but it is not cheating if she knows or strongly suspects you’re fucking other women and continues to be with you anyway.

    Tolerated cheating is an open relationship (or open marriage). I’ve said that many, many times.

    But BD, you wrote “show, don’t tell” in on of your responses here. That confused me, I thought you were all for verbalizing this “understanding” open and up-front, in “the talk”? Or did I miunaderstand you here?

    Partially. The Talk is not done up-front. It is done 3-5 months  (or more) into the relationship, and even then, only after certain things are done in a certain order. Read this book for precise details on how to do this.

    Maybe by the time “the talk” comes around, the woman already pretty much knows what’s what.

    Boom. Precisely

    The balding guy has frequent affairs, which his pretty wife ignores.  Then one day he has an affair within his office building, and she lays it out to him clear as day.  “I’ve always turned a blind eye to your “late nights”.  But fucking causing sexual drama right here where we live!  I need a divorce”

    Yup. She had a high-drama open marriage with that guy for many years and only got really angry when it threatened her public standing. Very common among high-income married men who bang other women. Arnold Arnold Schwarzenegger’s wife did the exact same thing, as I explained here.

    i can understand your mom wants to do activities your dad isn’t into. But really? Couldn’t they have just worked it out?

    Haha! Why don’t you ask that to every couple who gets divorced, which is most married couples. “Hey guys, WTF? Couldn’t just work it out?”

    If it were that simple, long-term monogamy would actually work.

    But to go back to your point. I’m with you that TMM does not work. My mom was divorced twice. Though it ain’t fun, statistics have it at 41% chance of divorce on the first merrige and 75% on the second.

    Actually, the stats are misleading. It’s more like 70% for the first marriage and even higher for the second. Read this.

    I’m dating a girl right now who’s been divorced once. She is not really open to the idea of polygamy. But she also doesn’t want to be serious. So go figure.

    Yes, as I talk about in my books, it’s called MNS: Monogamous but Not Serious, the worst relationship type of them all. And the most fundamentally irrational. (And any woman who demands it is only worthy of an FB relationship in my view.)

    All the best to you and your parents.

    Thanks dude.

  80. “Incorrect. I place it into the same category as an open relationship. Just one with a higher level of drama than what I advocate.”

    Oh, ok.  That’s logical.

    I have experience with don’t ask don’t tell types of non-monogamy, and one sided and two sided open relationships, and just lying about my serial affairs to one of the girls.  I suppose we have to think more in terms of a Venn diagram, rather than lumps of all the same category.  Like one of those imported apple pears.  Yes, sure, it’s an apple.  And it’s also a little bit of a pear.

    And then, it is what it is too.  The whole reason to point it out, for what it is in itself, regardless of category, is that don’t ask don’t tell is a different way to deal with the jealousy issue.  It deals with jealousy differently than other kinds of open relationships.

    Not everyone handles jealousy or pair bonding in a way that would be compatible with BDs system.  Some girls will say upfront that they prefer the don’t ask don’t tell arrangement.  Some will say that they can handle a guy fucking around as long as they don’t know who the girl is.  People have their various different coping strategies and levels of being able to deal with jealousy.  So a one size fits all plan won’t actually fit all.

  81. I’m shocked, and inspired at the same time. I would think if I was with someone that long I would just stick it out. Let’s be real for a min. 47 years together is basically your whole life. On the the flip side I’m inspired by this article. Your parents are in their 70s still have time to change their lives. I divorced my wife last year. We were together for 15 years and have two gorgeous daughters together. I made the decision to leave her. I’m only 37 and sometimes second guess myself if I did the right thing. This post is one of the most important to me on your entire blog.

  82. The whole reason to point it out, for what it is in itself, regardless of category, is that don’t ask don’t tell is a different way to deal with the jealousy issue.  It deals with jealousy differently than other kinds of open relationships.

    Yes, but the problem is it “deals with the jealousy” in a much higher-drama, high-conflict way. The instant you do anything she doesn’t like by violating any one of a dozen unspoken rules, there will be hell to pay, including a nasty breakup/divorce.

    As I’ve said, if you don’t care or mind about that downside, then go for it. But if you do, you’re making a huge life mistake.

    Not everyone handles jealousy or pair bonding in a way that would be compatible with BDs system.

    Then those people are in for less long-term happiness (unless they’re willing to change). Which is fine.

    Some girls will say upfront that they prefer the don’t ask don’t tell arrangement.  Some will say that they can handle a guy fucking around as long as they don’t know who the girl is.

    http://blackdragonblog.com/2015/05/04/ignore-what-women-say-only-watch-what-they-do/

    People have their various different coping strategies and levels of being able to deal with jealousy.  So a one size fits all plan won’t actually fit all.

    Again, it depends on how long-term or consistent you want your happiness to be. If that isn’t a priority to you, then do whatever you like. If it is a priority to you, you need to learn how to assume relationship models that are closer to what I talk about.

    I can drive 30 minutes to grandma’s house or I can take the long route and take two hours to get there. Yeah, they’ll both get me there, but one will take a lot fucking longer. If your priority is speed and efficiency but you choose to take the two hour route just because you “don’t like” the 30 minute drive, then you’re a moron. On the other hand, if you honestly don’t care how long it takes and really want the scenic route, then taking two hours to get there is fine. It all depends on your priories.

    But you should never throw your arms in the air and say, “Well, this is how I am and there’s nothing I can do about it, so I’ll choose the path that makes me less happy.” That’s just dumb.

    I’m shocked, and inspired at the same time. I would think if I was with someone that long I would just stick it out. Let’s be real for a min. 47 years together is basically your whole life.

    I agree completely and this is exactly what I told my parents when they first revealed they were considering a divorce. What the hell is the point of getting a divorce in your 70s after 47 years of marriage? Just stay together, and if you really want to date other old people on the side, shit, go ahead. Getting divorced in that scenario is just silly. But that’s just my opinion.

    On the the flip side I’m inspired by this article. Your parents are in their 70s still have time to change their lives. I divorced my wife last year. We were together for 15 years and have two gorgeous daughters together. I made the decision to leave her. I’m only 37 and sometimes second guess myself if I did the right thing. This post is one of the most important to me on your entire blog.

    Hey man, Colonel Sanders was in his friggin 60s before he started Kentucky Fried Chicken and really started making any real money.

    It’s never too late to change your life.

  83. But that doesn’t mean you’ll “feel” good if you have any evidence of your partner fucking someone else.

    Doesn’t mean I will feel bad either. There is this thing called “I really don’t care” because I fuck other hot women and working to better my life? She is not my property and I’m not her property?

    Jealousy is a mindset thing. Just like when you are a poor bastard saying “I’ll never get rich”. Well yes if you have this defeatist approach, you’ll never get around it.

    Your Italian type of relationship have these downsides(the ones I can think of) compared to BD’s system: 1)Your woman will eventually give you hell/drama 2) You are always scared of your own shadow when fucking other women and if you are not you have something nagging you about what happens if the wifey catches you red- handed, or if the neighbor sees you with another woman. 3) You care about the outcome of your actions(because you also care what society says) which leads to oneitis and we all know what it means to have oneitis. 4) After the end of the relationship your chances of fucking her again is way less. 5) She’ll still fuck another guy most likely and it will be a very big deal for you when you find out about it in comparison. Then you will waste energy and emotions for something that you cannot change.

    For me not that much of a difference from the cheating system.

    Some girls will say upfront that they prefer the don’t ask don’t tell arrangement.  Some will say that they can handle a guy fucking around as long as they don’t know who the girl is.

    Why do you even care what some girls will say upfront? Some girls will say upfront “I don’t like my man going out fucking other women”. What will you do? Pussy out and accept their demands? As BD says ignore what they say. A lot of these women make a 180 transition and accept most of the things when you subtly guide them through the system.

  84. hey hey nailed it.

    All my MLTRs know that I fuck other women; I don’t throw it in their faces but my EFA and subtextual communication makes it clear, and if they ask I freely admit it. But I do my best not to expose them to the raw reality of it – that’s where the ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ comes in.

    If they fuck someone else, that’s fair enough. Most of them don’t, as far as I know, and if they do I can easily cope with it emotionally.

  85. First off, about watch what a woman does instead of what she says, perhaps I deserved such an easy low blow from poor word choice, of “some girls will tell you upfront”.  Or perhaps its dissimulation via red pill 101 obvious truths.  Some girls will tell you before, during or after the fact.  Some girls will communicate.  Some girls believe.  Some girls say and act such that.  Ok, I think we can move past the “I’m more red pill than you” phase, and talk about the actual subject.

    I get your point, BD, that ideally people can have open relationships where jealousy won’t get in the way of that.

    I heard you say that if people are too jealous, they can work on that, and change, and therefore have more satisfying lives and relationships.

    But I question if your theory of mind is accurate.  I think you are making quite the big leap of faith, in regards to how psychology and neurology actually works.

    For some people, regardless of how much experience of non-monogamy they have had, jealousy still happens, and there is no off switch.  No counselling or meditation that makes it completely stop.  They need to find ways to MANAGE it.

    I believe that you have quite the simplistic theory of mind regarding the differences between people, and assume too much that others can be similar to you in their levels of jealousy, and their ability to keep fuck buddies at an emotional arms length.

    And what about if a person does want to consciously change their level of jealousy? Should he just try to grit his teeth and bear it, until he just gets over it?

    Again, I believe that does a disservice to what is, in favor of what could be. Start with what is, and work with that. For some people, don’t ask don’t tell is a good framework to start with what is. Jealousy is a hard wired evolved trait – it doesn’t disappear because of a world view or philosophy.

    And sure, many people, especially here, will feel it less. Good for you! Don’t get cocky about it and assume that others can or will be able to have low jealousy.

    And it’s not just about us men. It’s about managing the girls. You’d have to discard more women that you are into if you are strict about eventually being full disclosure about all details of who you fuck.

  86. An entire page of text that says “I’m a really jealous guy and there’s nothing I can do about it.”

    Good luck with that then. You’ll never be as happy as me though.

  87. Jealousy is a hard wired evolved trait – it doesn’t disappear because of a world view or philosophy.

    I don’t believe this is true at all. I think jealousy, especially sexual jealousy is very cultural. I think we are hard-wired to share sexually. Pre-civilization, when we evolved over hundreds of thousands of years as hunter-gathers,  I reckon everyone was fucking everyone and women, were having a lot of sex with each other as well. There’s a lot of evidence to back this up. Read a book call Sex at Dawn by Dr Christopher Ryan. There was pair bonding, but monogamy and sexually guarding one female was not a thing back then. Civilization, property ownership and the desire to pass wealth down the line is what fucked everything up for everyone. And that is less than 10,000 years old and not hard-wired into anything.

    When I first thought about getting into swinging I thought it would kill me. Tried it and had zero jealousy. So many other guys from all walks of life I’ve met in the swinging scene who have zero jealousy issues as well.

    “I’m a really jealous guy and there’s nothing I can do about it.”

    I think its more like “I’m a really jealous guy and I don’t want to do anything about it because I like it”

     

  88. I think its more like “I’m a really jealous guy and I don’t want to do anything about it because I like it”

    Possible, yes.

  89. BD, I have no interest in condom sex as of late.  It’s fine in the getting to know you while I fuck you stage but that doesn’t last long for me.  Probably because I’m fixed..  Is there a way around that when sleeping with FB‘s and Sugar Babies on the side?  I’m assuming your current wife would frown on codomless sex with anyone.

  90.  Is there a way around that when sleeping with FB’s and Sugar Babies on the side?  

    Do you have a fast STD testing place close by? We have a place that tests for free and will give you HIV and Syphilis in 2o min and gonorrhea and chlamydia in about 2 hours. We have been getting tested and getting other couples to get tested on the same day and then having heaps of no condom fun straight afterward.  Easy as and works a treat. Especially if you are fixed and don’t have to worry about that like me. 🙂

  91. Do you have a fast STD testing place close by? 

    I would think so..  I will look into that.  If there is anything at all that makes me do serial monogamy it would be that..

  92. That’s really rough for your Dad. I met an elderly man at a golf course where I was doing promotions a few months ago. He saw I wasn’t wearing a coat and it was starting to get chilly and he came over to talk. He told me how he had met his wife, 65 years ago, when she was a car hop and he loaned her his coat. They were married like 6 months later and stayed married for 65 years before getting divorced. Now he was living alone in a condo near the golf course and trying to keep himself busy with activities but you could just see how lonely he was. He didn’t know how to cook and was used to his wife doing that for him all those years. You could see how heartbroken he was that she didn’t want to live with him anymore. He had money and all that and wasn’t just sitting at home but it was really sad. It was a huge adjustment for him and he still seemed really bewildered.

  93. @BD

    What reasons did your parents give as to going through with a legal divorce?

    I can only think of a handful of extreme ones that could substantiate the hassle and consequences of completely shutting off someone who was my family for 65 years and is the father of my children.

    Thanks.

     

     

     

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