What does it mean to argue in good faith?

This means that you back up your points with facts or logic rather than doing so by twisting or purposely misstating either your argument or the argument of the other person.

Whenever someone does that when I am debating a topic, I know I’ve won. If you have to strawman what I’m saying, or if you have to twist your point into something that it isn’t in order to (theoretically) win a debate, that’s a clear indication that you can’t back up your point, and that my point is likely valid.

As I’ve said before, there are far less people defending traditional monogamous marriage (TMM) today than there were 10+ years ago when I was first talking about this stuff publicly (as well as personally with people I knew or women I dated).

Yet, there are still some people who are clinging to the bullshit fantasy that if you “screen for quality” and “find the right person” in the Western world, getting legally, traditionally married, combining all of your finances, and expecting absolute sexual monogamy from both yourself and your spouse forever is a really great idea.

It is, of course, a ridiculous and stupid idea, and reflects an adolescent level of thinking. I wrote a long article here that lists over 40 arguments people who defend long-term monogamy use and their responses. After discussing this topic for a decade or more, no one has yet to “stump” me on why TMM is a good idea in the Western world and in the modern era.

But let’s get back to that arguing in good faith thing. If I tell you that TMM is a horrible idea and you respond that you just can’t wrap your head around the concept that your future wife might get sexual with another man at some point (which is still a risk even with monogamy, since the already high instances of women cheating on men in marriages have increased by over 20% in just the last few years, and that’s only the women who are honest enough to admit it), or if you say that your entire religious family will hate you if you have an open marriage (then don’t tell them, you idiot), then while your arguments are invalid, you are at least arguing in good faith. In other words, you’re not attempting to twist the argument into something it isn’t in order to make your point.

But there is one argument I see made by lots of TMM defenders that isn’t arguing in good faith at all, and is indeed twisting the argument into something stupid.

I’ve seen this argument many times and perhaps you have too. It usually goes something like this:

Just because two people got divorced doesn’t mean it didn’t “work,” Blackdragon. It maybe worked just fine, based on their own definitions of “work.” They were married, then happy, then decided to get divorced. Who are you to say it didn’t work? Maybe it worked just fine for them.

This is one of the dumbest, lamest, and most disingenuous arguments people use to defend both TMM and monogamy. I shall demonstrate why.

Please raise your hand and tell me if you’ve ever seen a recently divorced person say anything like, “My marriage worked great! I loved being married, and I loved getting divorced! It worked out exactly as I planned.”

Yeah, I haven’t either. Pretty much 100% of people I have ever met who have gotten divorced (and I’ve met hundreds of these people; you probably have also) reported to me, quite clearly, that their divorce or the marriage was bad and that it was something they didn’t want. Either they never wanted the marriage and the marriage sucked (most divorced women say this) or their divorce was terrible and/or they didn’t want to get divorced (most divorced men say this).

Not one person, that I have met at least, has ever said they got married and divorced at the right times to the right people exactly the way they planned all along. Not one. They all said that the marriage and/or divorce was a huge disappointment and failure.

I’m sorry, but if you got traditionally married and then you divorced, your marriage didn’t “work.” To suggest such a thing as an argument to defend TMM is stupid as shit on your part.

I know this might be a shock to you, but traditional marriage means you get married and then you never get divorced. Instead, you fight, have drama, and then work things out and stay together. That’s what traditional marriage means. Your pastor who married you isn’t going to think that getting a divorce is a marriage that worked, so stop being a disingenuous idiot. That’s not traditional marriage.

You can’t redefine traditional marriage to fit your own internal definition. You can invent your own type of marriage (I did), but unless you’re the Emperor of the Western World, you can’t redefine what is traditional. Society has already defined that for you (sadly).

I keep italicizing traditional marriage because that’s what we’re talking about when we’re talking about long-term monogamy or TMM. However, if you want to remove “traditional” from the equation, now you’re being more logical and arguing in good faith.

I myself have redefined a new type of marriage that I have so much faith in that I actually did it myself: OLTR Marriage. It differs from TMM in the ways that I described here. Moreover and more importantly, unlike these irrational idiots who defend TMM, I clearly defined what “works” means in the context of my OLTR marriage (I clearly explained it here) and I’m going to stick with that definition regardless of what happens in the future.

Unlike monogamy defenders, if my marriage fails (by my own clear definition) I’m not going to do a bullshit 180 and say that it “worked” when it clearly did not. People who defend traditional monogamous marriage should do the same… but because they know it doesn’t work, they can’t.

Another way of getting around the word “traditional” in traditional marriage that some people are now trying is serial marriage, which I first described here. That means that on the day you get married, you are actually planning or at least strongly assuming that you’ll divorce this person down the road. Many women secretly do this, and more and more Alpha Male 1.0s from the pick-up artist and manosphere worlds are starting to do this as well.

If you do that, then sure, you can define your marriage as “worked” even if you get divorced around the approximate time frame you were planning on doing so all along. For example, you marry a younger woman to shut your mom up and to get your bullshit right-wing Societal Programming out of your system, plan on having two kids with her (to get that out of your system as well) and divorce her after about seven years of marriage when she crosses over age 30 and gets too old for you. That’s a ridiculous and insane plan for multiple reasons, but that’s your plan.

So you have your two kids and get divorced at six years. Okay, sure, that more or less “worked” because that was pretty much what you planned. (Now have fun losing half your money, paying alimony, and fighting in court for the right to spend time with your own kids, you fucking dumbass. But that’s a different conversation.)

But again, please raise your hand if you’ve ever talked to a person who clearly admitted to their fiancé (or even close personal friends or family members) right before the wedding that they were planning or strongly assuming they were going to divorce that person down the road once they got bored or irritated with them.

Yeah, me neither.

Please raise your hand if you’ve ever met anyone who, on their wedding day, planned on divorcing the other person on a certain timetable down the road and successfully succeeded in actually getting the divorce anywhere near that timetable.

I’m sure that’s happened somewhere at some point, but I’ve never seen it.

As I’ve said before, serial marriage may not traditional (meaning it is less irrational), but it’s not very functional either. And it won’t make you happy. People who do serial marriage don’t get enforceable prenups, assume near-forever monogamy from their spouses, so they encounter the same set of problems as TMM folks. I don’t recommend it for anyone (unless you enjoy drama).

So for you monogamy defenders, the next time you’re tempted to use the silly argument that “well maybe that divorced couple did have a marriage that worked,” then please, for the love of Pete, stop being a disingenuous idiot and just admit that TMM doesn’t work in the modern era anymore.

The current collapsing Western society would benefit far more from brave people inventing new, more viable ways to long-term pair-bond with spouses (and raise children, if desired) than pretending a permanently broken system isn’t broken.

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40 Comments on “Trying to Redefine TRADITIONAL Marriage

  1. I think a lot of younger couples now realise that marriage has a certain shelf life but can’t deal with just living together and facing the crap from parents, married friends (in denial) and societal programming.

    In the last four months or so, I must have overheard girls discussing their upcoming marriage and their partners less than enthusiastic manner, at least half a dozen times, on my train ride, which is more than I ever used to (and I’ve been commuting for years).

    Last week, one girl was describing to her friend, how her boyfriend didn’t seem that interested in the upcoming preparations and then suddenly they mentioned a mutual female friends marriage that had collapsed and it went somewhat like this:

    “Oh, I had doubts from the start. He never seemed that keen on being together; she could have done soo much better”.

    I literally sat there with a big grin on my face thinking “Seriously, you don’t notice anything SIMILAR right!?”

  2. The current collapsing Western society would benefit far more from brave people inventing new, more viable ways to long-term pair-bond with spouses (and raise children, if desired) than pretending a permanently broken system isn’t broken.

    In all fairness, I don’t think this is considered to be a serious issue on most peoples’ minds in the Western culture. Open relationships (and marriages) have been around for a while now and the concept just hasn’t caught up. Society just doesn’t feel comfortable nor necessary to compromise on intimacy and family values in such a way. Plus, most people (I would say above 90%) are quite jealous and possessive and would never do that. This is not just societal programming, but human nature and has been observed in almost every society on the planet from the dawn of times. I am not even gonna talk about religious folks here.

    So, even though OLTR relationships are considered to be logical solution to drama and divorces on this blog, in reality, traditional marriages are only an issue to the readers of this blog. Society sees it more like “Yes, sometimes people get divorced. Yes, sometimes things don’t work out. But such is life, shit happens, move on”.

    Same applies to Collapsing West and Suicidal Europe (when was it not suicidal, by the way? The amount of wars waged on its territory, revolutions, migrations, etc. over the past two millennia is staggering. Yet, here we are, still one of the nicest – if not the nicest – places to live on the planet).

    So yeah, I don’t think cultural revolution is coming any time soon, for better or for worse…

  3. I have acquired a new low end MLTR and having “the talk” tonight with her.  Naturally her curiosity is getting to her and she has now pushed me to the point of needing to sit and talk about it.  Interestingly enough, she has complained about how she “pretty sure I am seeing other women” and “I never contact her first” and “I won’t meet with her enough” and “I drive her crazy” to this friend and the friend has responded that she should “relax”, “you haven’t dated in 20 years”  “this is how things are now”  “nobody just dives in to it like they used to anymore”.  I want to go shake her friends’ hand and thank her.  She literally has excused all of my behaviors that this MLTR has been upset about, and explained them as normal.

    So adding to your discussion, “traditional” ways are beginning to be seen overall as outdated and no longer relevant more and more as time passes.

  4. What is really crazy is lets say TMM did work.. For the sake of argument.

    Why is the fucking amount of those Marriages that have Pre-Nups so low!

    I feel really bad for the Trad Con types down here in Orange County who get the TMM shackles put on them (for those of you who don’t know OC is a actually pretty Conservative), those guys must be getting taken to the cleaners by gold digger types who hit the jackpot.

    One more field the Alpha 1.0’s are manipulated by Right Wing bullshit and literally self sacrifice for the greater good of society! LOL

    You divorce here in California and add Alimony and Child Support.. you can easily be living in van down by the river with the amount you pay and our cost of living! Even if you’re doing good money wise! As in no retirement, no more Saving, and a lot less Freedom, keep in mind that’s after the Marriage fails and you divorce..

  5. I’m on vacation on the beach Cabo right now and didn’t stay on top of the proofreading. Fixed.

    In the last four months or so, I must have overheard girls discussing their upcoming marriage and their partners less than enthusiastic manner, at least half a dozen times, on my train ride, which is more than I ever used to (and I’ve been commuting for years).

    I have noticed this too, anecdotally. Amazingly, young people seem to be getting married more in the last few years…

    …which means in about 10 years, the divorce rate is going to spike upward again.

    In all fairness, I don’t think this is considered to be a serious issue on most peoples’ minds in the Western culture.

    Correct, which is one of the main reasons Western culture is collapsing.

    So, even though OLTR relationships are considered to be logical solution to drama and divorces on this blog, in reality, traditional marriages are only an issue to the readers of this blog. Society sees it more like “Yes, sometimes people get divorced. Yes, sometimes things don’t work out. But such is life, shit happens, move on”.

    Wrong. Name five people you know who had that attitude when they got divorced. “Eh, sucks, no big deal, move on.”

    No. Divorce is one of the worst and most angry events of people’s lives. The attitude you describe is never the attitude they have (with rare exception).

  6. The problem is that from the moment we are born, we are constantly bombarded by the Disney message that finding The One(TM) and settling into permanent and forever Marital Bliss (TM) should be the highest and ultimate goal of our lives. Movies, TV, books – great literature being some of the worst – talk radio pundits, the adults around us whose literal, practical experience tells them otherwise….. We’re saturation bombed with this message thru all our formative years.

    Then when we’re 18 or 25 or 34 and full of NRE for somebody, we sign on for TMM because “we’re not like those other couples who got divorced”.

    OK, when we’re young and inexperienced, we all do stuff we later regret. What I don’t understand is people who go thru the NRE-marriage-disappointment-divorce cycle…… And then go right back and DO IT AGAIN!

  7. I think a lot of younger couples now realise that marriage has a certain shelf life but can’t deal with just living together and facing the crap from parents, married friends (in denial) and societal programming.

    The obvious thing you’re leaving out is the strong female incentive to get married with the knowledge that later she’ll be able to divorce the guy for cash and prizes.

  8. … strong female incentive to get married with the knowledge that later she’ll be able to divorce the guy for cash and prizes.

    One of my favorite Blackdragon nuggets of wisdom: “Women like getting married. They don’t like being married.”

  9. Wrong. Name five people you know who had that attitude when they got divorced. “Eh, sucks, no big deal, move on.”
    No. Divorce is one of the worst and most angry events of people’s lives. The attitude you describe is never the attitude they have (with rare exception).

    It is a horrible, horrible, and absolutely miserable process if kids are involved.  Can’t speak for what it’s like without kids.  I have seen so many friends angry, crying, begging, and broken during their divorce.  Turning to alcohol or hard drugs in the process.  Going thru counseling and taking years to get over it.

  10. Some people jump into marriage just to save a bit of money on auto insurance, here in Alberta single guys are being RAPED on insurance premiums, single women not so much!

  11.  

    So you have your two kids and get divorced at six years. Okay, sure, that more or less “worked” because that was pretty much what you planned. (Now have fun losing half your money, paying alimony, and fighting in court for the right to spend time with your own kids, you fucking dumbass. But that’s a different conversation.)

    I don’t run in circles where this type of shit happens to the men, since the men are on the poorer side or never marry/co-habit. But you went through this, and IIRC your divorce was not that bad. You probably should have been divorced sooner than you did, but still, you got it out of your system. I agree that on the one hand it’s better to wait till your older, wiser, and have your financial shit together, but there certainly is a case where getting it out of your system when your young would be better. You have your kid(s), get a vasectomy or go on trt and then move on with your life, knowing that TMM is bullshit, and while OLTR marriage is not that shitty, it still sucks to certain degree.

    Now, as for serial marriages, I think it’s completely natural that people would go this route, given it’s the path of least resistance. You get married, you get divorced. You’re broke, your life sucks for a bit, then you repeat the cycle. If your lucky or smart enough (eg. not live in CA, park your money in trusts or offshore) you figure a way to keep enough of your assets so that you don’t end up financially crippled and end up killing yourself like Anthony Bourdain or Robin Williams.

    After a certain age, people expect you to have multiple marriages, as this is a sign the man is capable of committing. Yes women actually believe and say this. I think its silly but I go along with it as well, not wanting to be stigmatized as a never-married. I just laugh when guys talk about my second and third wife like it means nothing.

    As for debating this topic with people, I think that just like politics it’s a waste of time. Your case is different because you have the money making angle. Marriage is such a sacred cow that people will come up with stupid shit to defend it. Otherwise they would have to admit that TMM is stupid, they’re stupid, and everyone else around them is also stupid. Why would people do this?

     

  12. Wrong. Name five people you know who had that attitude when they got divorced. “Eh, sucks, no big deal, move on.”
    No. Divorce is one of the worst and most angry events of people’s lives. The attitude you describe is never the attitude they have (with rare exception).

    Maybe I exaggerated a bit, but divorces are so common, people and society at large take it as something “normal”, that happens quite often. Why do you think people get re-married after a divorce? I was having this conversation with a guy who was married for the third (!) time (he was only 39) and he was saying that it sucks, but it happens, and having family is important for him. He wouldn’t even consider that TMM might be a flawed concept, and was convinced it was the only way.

    Point is, people love the idea of TMM, have been loving it since the ancient times and are likely to keep loving it for a long, long time.

  13. Hey BD,

    younger reader here (24).

    Totally on board with the FB/MLTR/OLTR model.

    My question is as we get older and maybe want to become fathers with OLTRs or even MLTRs , how do we structure the parenting arrangement given all the child custody laws, etc?

    I know you don’t do legal advice but maybe a post (if not already exist) on how parenting 2.0 for the 21st century looks like ?

    thanks

  14. Maybe I exaggerated a bit, but divorces are so common, people and society at large take it as something “normal”, that happens quite often. Why do you think people get re-married after a divorce?

    In the end most men get married again because it seems like an easy and convenient way to secure regular sex, house keeping, a cook, nurse, laundry, ride when your car breaks down, stylist, supplemental income, help with your kids, and most importantly avoid dating which most men hate and are horrible at.    It’s ingrained in us.  Most men need a momma and women cater to that.   That is before you actually marry them.

  15. Why is the fucking amount of those Marriages that have Pre-Nups so low!
    I feel really bad for the Trad Con types down here in Orange County who get the TMM shackles put on them (for those of you who don’t know OC is a actually pretty Conservative), those guys must be getting taken to the cleaners by gold digger types who hit the jackpot.

    I can can explain that.

    prenups are 100% unenforceable in California.  Literally not worth the paper they are printed on.  And Tradcons are jealous and possessive as hell.  Having spent a decade in OC I can attest the place is crawling with them.  And having lived walking distance from The Fling (when I was TMM) I can attest their wives are OUT and looking at getting serviced by other men in droves.

    I agree with Vsmilex and low key disagree with BD.  Vsx is saying society is stating that, and BD is stating the stone cold truth for individuals, and that is something society is in complete denial of.

    And all of it is a product of societal programming.  It’s strong shit.

    It nearly did me in a second time, but I got lucky and “the one” dumped my ass before I got in another TMM.  That got my attention.  BD woke me up the rest of the way.

    I realize Caleb isn’t running a charity here (I’ve bought almost everything he ever wrote), but I am grateful he showed me how I was playing in a rigged game, and that there was a better way.

     

  16. Quoting Louis CK from Hilarious:

    Let me tell you something, and this is important because some day one of your friends is gonna get divorced; it’s gonna happen and they’re gonna tell you. Don’t go, “Aww I’m sorry,” that’s a stupid thing to say. It really is.

    First of all, you’re making them feel bad for being really happy, which isn’t fair. And second, let me explain something: divorce is always good news. I know that sounds weird, but it’s true because no good marriage has ever ended in divorce. It’s really that simple. That’s never happened.

    That would be sad, if two people were married and they were really happy and they just had a great thing, and then they got divorced! That would be really sad, but that has happened zero times. Literally zero.

  17. Most men need a momma and women cater to that.  

    This is true of betaized men (who wind up with dominant women).  But it doesn’t explain super possessive Alpha 1.0s (who are jealous as hell).  Or, the independents who are loaded with social programming that drives them to TMM.

    Im the last one.  Or, was anyway.

  18. Jake Thomas:  There is no safe way to become a father while living in the United States.  Black Dragon is correct when he points out that you can file an agreed up parenting plan between the mother and father at the court house.  You can do this before the child is born, and while the couple is still together.

    However either party can void the agreement and force the counterparty to re-litigate the entire thing any time there is a “material change in circumstances”.    The mother and father splitting up and going to live at separate houses certainly meets this criteria.  If that happens it’s open season on the man.  Expect to be dragged over the coals, pay crazy amounts in attorney fees, and be assessed possibly crippling child support.  So for all intents and purposes the best you can do is obtain an unenforceable contract beforehand.

    As I see it your options are:

    1.) Don’t have children even if you want them.  Hey I want a Ferrari.  But the asking price from the dealer isn’t worth it.  So I don’t drive one.  Same thing with kids.

    2.)  Secure a stream of location independent income, move overseas to a more male friendly jurisdiction, marry a local, and don’t come back until all of your children are at least 18 years old.

  19. To build on what C Lo is saying:

    Prenups are unenforceable in not only California but virtually everywhere in the United States, which is why I disagree heavily with Blackdragon on prenuptial agreements being okay and legally enforceable. They aren’t. Courts in one state may enforce them, but another will wipe their ass with it, and all it takes to file for divorce under a new state is residency, a process that takes a few weeks to a few months.

    If a person is devious enough (or their spouse rich enough) they will take the kids to a new state with relaxed divorced laws, change residency, then file for divorce. I know personally of a rich British man whose wife was an American who signed a prenup. After 15 years of marriage she filed for divorce after taking the kids and moving their residency to Pennsylvania and received alimony of ~$10,000 a month back in the early 2000s. Despite a prenup that would have been enforceable in other states Pennsylvania has not adopted the Universal Prenuptial Agreement Act, rendering your otherwise “legally enforceable” prenup a useless piece of paper.

  20. I know personally of a rich British man whose wife was an American who signed a prenup. After 15 years of marriage she filed for divorce after taking the kids and moving their residency to Pennsylvania and received alimony of ~$10,000 a month back in the early 2000s.

    It would be reasonable to assume that the prenup was drawn up by a specialist and the man thought all bases were covered. Was that the case, or did he fall victim to an amateur error? Do you have any specifics?

  21. This is true of betaized men (who wind up with dominant women).  But it doesn’t explain super possessive Alpha 1.0s (who are jealous as hell).  Or, the independents who are loaded with social programming that drives them to TMM

    most men are not alpha…  alphas like myself struggle with the need to possess, dominate, fix, watch, and control…  to do that you need them under your thumb..  But even alphas Want a woman to provide everything I listed..  like their mom did..  that’s her place..

  22. “Women like getting married. They don’t like being married.”

    Yes, this is one of my most-repeated Blackdragon quotes too.  A masterpiece of pithiness.

     

  23. most men are not alpha…  alphas like myself struggle with the need to possess, dominate, fix, watch, and control…  to do that you need them under your thumb..  But even alphas Want a woman to provide everything I listed..  like their mom did..  that’s her place..

    You are a self described Alpha 1.0.  No offense intended, but I don’t share any of those traits.  I am the oldest of multiple children, and had to take on adult responsibilities around age 9, and have been self sufficient since I was 18.  That stuff does not sound appealing to me, at all, but does sound terribly codependent.  Hard pass.

    It would be reasonable to assume that the prenup was drawn up by a specialist and the man thought all bases were covered. Was that the case, or did he fall victim to an amateur error? Do you have any specifics?

    Unless you showed up in the relationship rich and are trying to defend that (in fact, anything that was separate property pre marriage remains separate), everything you and she acquired during the course of the marriage is considered community property (with a few exceptions like if you inherited something) and not subject to the prenup (because it happened after you got married).

    Also:

    Howevereither party can void the agreement and force the counterparty to re-litigate the entire thing any time there is a“material change in circumstances”

    Sounds like it’s worthless to me!  And:

    Courts in one state may enforce them, but another will wipe their ass with it, and all it takes to file for divorce under a new state is residency, a process that takes a few weeks to a few months.

    This shit happens all.  the. Time.  If you are lucky enough to have a valid prenup, and you get a legally married, and she leaves you for 30 days to “visit her parents with the kids for the summer to California” guess what?

    BD talks about  the 2% rule.  He may argue that all this stuff is 2%.  I contend that if you get divorced you are 100% exposing yourself to a bunch of 2% events that are cumulative.

    Skip all of it and don’t marry them (legally) and reduce that 2% to ZERO.

    And to you guys out there that got divorced the first time that are thinking about it a second time:

    You are walking proof that you are no good at this (because, cmon, nobody is) – you think it’s gonna be different with someone else exactly why?  DONT DO IT.

    Look, I don’t know how else to describe how bad divorce sucked.  Once was enough.  If you don’t wanna get divorced a second time don’t be stupid and get married.

    And clearly I’m #8 below, but I’m not stupid either and recognize there’s limitations on proactive measures you can take.

    http://blackdragonblog.com/2018/09/24/the-11-types-of-anger-in-the-manosphere/

    Biggest one is “how mad is she, and does she have another man yet”, and you can’t control that.

     

  24. Ohhhh boy. We’ve got some seriously fucked-up comments today. Time for daddy to go to work…

    Some people jump into marriage just to save a bit of money on auto insurance, here in Alberta single guys are being RAPED on insurance premiums, single women not so much!

    Americans do the same for medical insurance. It’s a classic case of government interference in the economy causing people to fuck up their own lives in response. (Government is the direct cause of both Canada’s high car insurance rates and America’s high medical insurance rates.)

    your divorce was not that bad

    Context. My divorce wasn’t that bad as compared to the many men who get royally divorce raped. True. At the same time, my divorce was still one of the worst experiences of my entire life, likely the worst memory I have of anything in my past 46 years on this Earth, and the single worst financial setback of my entire life. It was very bad. All divorces are very bad. It’s just that many men, perhaps even most, have even worse divorces than I did.

    but still, you got it out of your system

    Utterly incorrect. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I did not get traditionally married to get anything out of my system. I was never excited about the concept, even when I was young beta male.

    I did it because I was ignorant of any other way in which a man could live with a woman or raise kids. If someone had just pulled me aside and taken 30 minutes to explain some alternatives to me, I would have happily pursued them. I could have been saved, but no one was there to inform me.

    That’s what I’m doing here; providing the 10% of men alternatives that no one else will give them.

    I agree that on the one hand it’s better to wait till your older, wiser, and have your financial shit together, but there certainly is a case where getting it out of your system when your young would be better.

    Then state that case clearly and watch me destroy it.

    I’ll say it to be clear: TMM is never a good idea for any man in the Western world unless you’re one of those guys who like drama. I dare anyone to disagree, and if you do, you’d better be able to provide facts instead of feelings or opinions.

    Now, as for serial marriages, I think it’s completely natural that people would go this route, given it’s the path of least resistance.

    I’m not arguing that it’s natural or not, or that the alternatives are easy. I’m arguing that it’s a bad idea that will make you very unhappy and that there are some alternatives that are far superior (including just staying single for the rest of your life). And I’m right.

    Now if you’re arguing that human beings are fundamentally stupid, well, that’s an entire different conversation.

    As for debating this topic with people, I think that just like politics it’s a waste of time.

    Incorrect. Debating politics is a waste of time because voting for someone won’t change your own life in any meaningful, personal way, but avoiding TMM will have huge and incredible benefits for your life.

    Marriage is such a sacred cow that people will come up with stupid shit to defend it. Otherwise they would have to admit that TMM is stupid, they’re stupid, and everyone else around them is also stupid. Why would people do this?

    Ah, you forget that I’m only trying to help 10% of men here. Yeah, 90% of men won’t do this because they’re too weak, stupid, brainwashed, or needy (and I include many Alpha Male 1.0s when I say needy). I don’t care if they don’t change. They can all burn in hell.

    But there are about 10% who will listen to this advice and make at least some changes in their lives for the better. Thus my articles about this topic.

    Maybe I exaggerated a bit, but divorces are so common, people and society at large take it as something “normal”, that happens quite often.

    That wasn’t your point. Your point was that people think divorce is no big deal. It is a big deal and people know it. Look at John’s comment above.

    Point is, people love the idea of TMM, have been loving it since the ancient times and are likely to keep loving it for a long, long time.

    Read what I just said above about only wanting to help 10% of men. What most people do is completely irrelevant to me, nor is this this blog for most people.

    My question is as we get older and maybe want to become fathers with OLTRs or even MLTRs , how do we structure the parenting arrangement given all the child custody laws, etc?

    http://blackdragonblog.com/2016/07/28/the-12-steps-have-kids/

    And chapters 23 and 24 in this book.

    And second, let me explain something: divorce is always good news. I know that sounds weird, but it’s true because no good marriage has ever ended in divorce.

    He’s absolutely right. The problem is to prevent these train wrecks to being with, not congratulate everyone every time they get divorced because they were stupid enough to get a TMM in the first place.

    The goal is to stop TMM, not to reduce or increase divorce.

    …again, only for the 10% of men who have the balls to listen to this data. The rest of men are pretty much hopeless.

  25.  I wasnever excited about the concept, even when I was young beta male.

    Boy, I was.  But I was raised around fairly stable people in a fairly stable community.  Even after I got separated, and I cannot emphasize this enough, I could not wait to reboot and get married again.

    Im devoutly religious, and had tons of pernicious social programming, that only served to take away happiness from my and other people’s lives.

    But that was then and this is now.  I still don’t have it figured out, but for most Americans BD is just a starting point.

    If you really want to know what’s up, get friendly with people who practice family law in your jurisdiction.  They will tell you what actually comes through the courtroom.  And what you can get away with or what won’t fly.

  26. only for the 10% of men who have the balls to listen to this data. The rest of men are pretty much hopeless.

    Im not sure it’s about balls.

    At some level, everyone’s has a set of core values, that are as divorcable as their eye color.  The rest is societal programming.

    Its not a lack of courage, IMO, as much as a lack of capacity.  To me that’s worse, it’s a moral failing.  A failing to save themselves.

    So once again, BD is right and I’m picking at it.

  27. You are a self described Alpha 1.0.  No offense intended, but I don’t share any of those traits.  I am the oldest of multiple children, and had to take on adult responsibilities around age 9, and have been self sufficient since I was 18.  That stuff does not sound appealing to me, at all, but does sound terribly codependent.  Hard pass

    No of course it inst appealing but my response was to the poster who said people have been getting married for 1000’s of years and will continue to for the future..  my response was to asmwer why thatvis..  as a recoverinng alpha i dont have a need to remarry..  i get my needs met consistently without having to lock anyone down..

  28. You are a self described Alpha 1.0.  No offense intended, but I don’t share any of those traits.  I am the oldest of multiple children, and had to take on adult responsibilities around age 9, and have been self sufficient since I was 18.  That stuff does not sound appealing to me, at all, but does sound terribly codependent.  Hard pass

    I’m more of an independent alpha..  at the end of the day someone who is Indepenedent still has to secure seemingly cheap, easy, and accessible sex unless they don’t have a  sex drive..  if you’ve never been married or read this site you most likely wouldn’t realize that it’s actually the opposite..  independent or not most men are terrible at getting sex apart from a relationship..  once a woman starts putting the pressure on, even the most independent of men will fold and commit rather starting all over again..

    truth is most guys look at marriage like employment..  what you’re supposed to do…  lose one get another..  even though you hated the last and will hate the next..

  29. independent or not most men are terrible at getting sex apart from a relationship

    Okay, I’ll do you one better and agree and amplify:

    I’m independent to a fault and I’m horrible at getting sex outside of a relationship!  Mostly because I get all mine from social circle and I’m awful at managing that, where I don’t look stable and the first thing I get from these women is “spoken for” as soon as we get involved.

    I only became aware of IOIs a few years ago (!) and I’m apparently screaming “husband material” from the rafters since I was 12.

     

  30. I think a lot of younger couples now realise that marriage has a certain shelf life but can’t deal with just living together and facing the crap from parents, married friends (in denial) and societal programming.

    The obvious thing you’re leaving out is the strong female incentive to get married with the knowledge that later she’ll be able to divorce the guy for cash and prizes.

    My perspective was from both male & female sides; your comment is looking at it from a women with an agenda.

     

  31. @ C LO

    Yup! They use that Possessiveness idea to goad you into marrying/getting monogamous with them. They usually seek out those men who make good “Husbands” (formerly me).

    I’d argue that many Women wear those Big Diamond Rings so they can attract guys who are ONLY trying to fuck while they’ve Married their Meal Ticket OC dude.

    Not mention what you may have witnessed was exactly what happened for OC has a YUUGE Swinger Community. So many of these dudes are probably doing a Cuckold type thing and KNOW that they’re just a meal ticket in some ways which is even sadder (obviously some are two way way open and others are just legit into that Cuckold thing but I think you get what I’m saying).

    So many of these men are literally falling on their own sword..

  32. I’m apparently screaming “husband material” from the rafters since I was 12.

    You can work with that.  I come from the same ultra religious background as you but don’t let the marriage material signals keep me from getting laid when I want very quickly.  But I’m 25 years removed from that background.

  33. Most people don’t “argue” to actually learn something. Like … let’s have an open mind and try to find the answer. MAYBE if they are both owners in a business and trying to make money. Then ego can be put aside (sometimes) in an honest attempt to find the best path forward.

     

    Most of the time, people either argue to hear themselves talk, or they argue to protect their own beliefs, no matter how stupid.

     

    In the case of marriage, it kind of works like belief in God.

    It’s readily obvious, logically and empirically, that most marriages don’t work, and God doesn’t exist. However, this belief is jarring, rattling, to many. It makes them feel unsafe and uncomfortable. The comforting lies taught to them by Disney or whoever are all a farce.

    People need a common, easy, logical framework to make sense of complicated, cold, cruel life.

    In the case of life, the random bullshit that happens, tragedy, nihilism, the unknown, fate, mortality, etc … can be explained away by God. God, the all-powerful, all-knowing Benevolent father figure who actually loves you … bestows fairness, justice, meaning and ever-lasting life.

    Marriage is simple. You find the one true magical disney girl, and then you’re done with scary “game” and women. True love forever. You can then let yourself go and get fat and live happily ever after.

     

    People learn that both these things are bullshit, deep down, but it’s a painful realization. Pain bad. I like delusion! Yaaay!

    So there you go. There is no “good faith” argument in marriage and God because these are not intellectual exercises; they are emotional and feeling based exercises intended to defend the beliefs at all costs, not assess whether they are true. In fact, even “suggesting” a debate or inquiry at all into either of these as valid is already considered an Act of War. Even the idea of a challenge or debate of your “super dearly held security blankets” is enough to make someone mad.

  34. The only way Marriage can be dope is an OLTR or those rare Unicorn actual bad ass wives who can even be monogamous (some religious types I’ve seen have been).

    Basically just look at Game of Thrones.. Who’s relationship looked like the most fun, fulfilling and looked like what THEY wanted? 

    1. Robert and Cercei who HATED each other

    2. Ned and Catelyn who he married her to honor the family, she actually loved his brother who died (they both self sacrificed)

    3. Prince Oberyn who was Second Son who pretty much dropped out of royalty to pursue adventure.. and had he Open Marriage/Open Life Partner. Now obviously he was Bi which you don’t have to be..

    4. Bronn.. Not married and didn’t give a Fuck about Royalty and Titles for the most part.. just fucked bitches and got money as a Mercenary. Pretty much detached from the game even more than Oberyn.

    The Options are in front of you.. It’s up to you to decide Which guy you want to be..

  35. There are a lot of alpha, admirable men who seem to have had successful monogamous marriages without any infidelity. I recently was listening to the biographies of Sam Walton (founder of Walmart) and Lee Kuan Yew (first prime minister of Singapore). How would you categorize and explain these?

    Do they fall under your 2% rule?

  36. There are a lot of alpha, admirable men who seem to have had successful monogamous marriages without any infidelity.

    A lot? Where? You listed two. Two is not a lot. And it’s not even two. It’s one.

    Lee Kuan Yew

    What?!? I’m not sure about Sam Walton, but my friend, I would bet you $10,000 Lee Kuan Yew not only cheated on his wife, but did it a lot. I seriously can’t think of a worst example of sexual faithfulness.

    Try harder.

  37. I bet that guy in the American Gothic painting was faithful.  Cant wait to be that happily married one day s/

  38. johnnybegood: There is no “good faith” argument in marriage and God because these are not intellectual exercises; they are emotional and feeling based exercises intended to defend the beliefs at all costs, not assess whether they are true. In fact, even “suggesting” a debate or inquiry at all into either of these as valid is already considered an Act of War. Even the idea of a challenge or debate of your “super dearly held security blankets” is enough to make someone mad.

    I agree with you about marriage, but belief in God isn’t just some faith-based delusion like a lot of misguided atheists seem to think. There are many good arguments for God. Here are some:

    http://www.doxa.ws/meta_crock/listGodarguments.html

  39. Before 1950 Traditional marriage did work; because people would no live much past 30, they were dying of disease, injury, recklessness, or war (mostly the men, women died a lot in childbirth).

    Sure there was some cheating, King Henry the Eighth or something (execuited 8 wives because divorce was illegal, then said fuck it & created his own religeon in which divorce wak A OK), so it did work! Kind of, not really.

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