A while back, commenter Nicolas made this comment:

I’m currently making a strange experiment. Well, it’s strange for me, as I’m testing your stuff (going for young hotties on dating sites while being in my late 30s). But I made a move in the complete opposite of this post. On my dating profile, I made a little bit of blabla (nothing interesting, but I write well, so it’s ok to have it), but the core of it, the main paragraph states (roughly translated to english):

“First of all, I’m polyamourous. I have 2 women in my life, and I have feelings for them. So suck it monogamy!” (very approximate translation)

My response rate crumbled to 5% (0% amongst women my age). But two gals contacted me, and showed interest in polyamory as soon as they opened their online mouth (in France, it’s not as big as it is in the US). One told me she considers MLTR to be some ideal relationship. The other one just crave for air in monogamous relationships (in my opinion, she should really consider polyamory as a lifestyle).

So, stating I’m polyamourous right away:

– Allows me to focus more on the type of girls I want to meet. In my opinion they have lower ASD, are less bossy, and I think the drama is also lowered (at least, I know I won’t have jealousy drama).

– Makes my profile clearly unique. They contact me because they want to know about polyamory. I’m suddenly not a random profile on the website, I may be the only one stating my polyamourous lifestyle (appart from OkCupid, I don’t think many dating sites allow you to show your nonmonogamous lifestyle, and OkCupid is not much important in France).

– Shows great OI in my opinion. Always a good thing.

– Removes creepiness: I’m not starving for sex, I clearly show I have feelings. Both gals told me in the first messages that they are open to first date sex… more than I was expecting (I’ll also try your 2-dates model, even if I may be surprised by their model).

Also, a reader named Paul recently sent me this email:

I’ve been reading your blog for a year or two and own several of your books. Thank you for sharing so many of your experiences. Congrats on making a business out of it!

I’m 46, divorced, with two young kids. Today I have four FBs who all know I have other relationships. Some of them know about specifics. They are 22, 26, 28, and 40.

I have made a small change to my approach from what you recommend. I have a conversation about non-monogamy with women before I have sex with them. Since sex almost always happens on the second date it’s always on the first date or at the start of the second. With two of my current FBs, the 26 and 28, they were very relieved and excited that I was so open minded and wouldn’t be attempting to monopolize them sexually. Telling them up front was an immediate good thing. With the 40 there was a brief hiccup, then everything went on as if there had never been a discussion. With the 22 it was simply a non-event discussion – she totally didn’t care.

I still remember all the trouble I had back in 2007 and 2008 trying to get women to have open / polyamorous / nonmonogamous relationships with me. No matter what I said, no matter what facts I presented about divorce rates, or people cheating, or the benefits of not being monogamous, or having women just go back and remember why their past monogamous relationships failed, none of that helped. They were adamant about monogamy, period. It was a huge uphill battle. There was so much resistance.

“Oh no, you’re wrong! Not all guys cheat!”

“Oh no, you’re wrong! Once you fall in love with someone, really fall in love, you won’t ever want to have sex with anyone else.”

“Oh no, you’re wrong! Once you find the right person/guy/girl, long-term monogamy works great! You just have to find that person!”

“Oh no, you’re wrong! My aunt/uncle/co-worker did it!”

I also said many years ago that as time went on, monogamy’s failure rates would continue to rise. This would force people to start considering nonmonogamy whether they wanted to or not. And I was right. As I already talked about here, it is now far easier to get women into verbalized nonmonogamous relationships today than it was just ten years ago.

Another factor I had not considered also helped this: technology. In an internet / smartphone / social media world, it’s become extremely difficult to cheat on your girlfriend / boyfriend / spouse and never get caught. Back in the 1980s, when there were no cell phones, no internet, and barely any computers, cheating was easy as hell. Today, cheaters are getting caught in far larger numbers than ever before because of technology. Soon, technology will render it literally impossible to cheat, as I explained here.

Today, divorce rates have gotten so bad and cheating has become so rampant, and being able to hide your cheating has become so difficult, I don’t have to convince new women I meet of monogamy not working and of nonmonogamy at least being a viable option. If a woman ever balks at the concept of having an open or poly relationship, all I have to say is, “Every boyfriend you’ve ever had has cheated on you, right?”

Every time I’ve said this, the woman just looks at me with a blank stare for a second, then embarrassingly looks away. Seriously. Try this. It will work. It’s worked on tons of women in the last few years, including Pink Firefly.

My advice is, as always, to slowly move a “normal” (i.e. she’s only done monogamy) woman into the world of open or poly. This way, you can take almost any woman, regardless of her background, and move her into a nonmonogamous relationship with extremely high odds of success. I describe exactly how to do this in this book here.

However, we are now, slowly, moving into an era where some women don’t need this kind of hand-holding. As Nicolas and Paul have pointed out, many women can simply be told, right up front, that you only do nonmonogamous relationships, and they may just go for it.

Can you do this with all women? No. As you can see from Nicolas’ experience, his response rates dropped to near-zero when he declared this on his online dating profile, and that was in France where they are a lot less uptight about sex than in places like the USA or Canada.

You can also see from both Nicolas’ and Paul’s accounts that the women they were dealing with were young. Nicolas was only going after VYW and Paul noted that the 22 year-old “didn’t care” while the 40 year-old had a “hiccup.” Yup. That’s exactly how it works. The other two girls were well under the Age of Doom: age 33.

So, if you would like to experiment with violating a part of my system, and verbalize your nonmonogamous intentions right up front instead of avoiding any discussion about the relationship for 3-5 months like I typically recommend, you may do so, as long as you follow these parameters:

1. You are not a beginner at this stuff. I can tell that both Nicolas and Paul were reasonably experienced with my frames and techniques. Blatantly verbalizing nonmonogamy right up front is something for guys who are at the intermediate or advanced levels only.

2. You are extremely confident and outcome independent. Again, I can tell that both Nicolas and Paul are in this category, at least to a strong degree. They’re also older men; Nicolas being in his late 30s and Paul being 46.

3. You focus solely on younger women, meaning women well under age 33. VYW would be ideal. As always, the younger the woman, the lower ASD she’ll have, thus the more likely early verbalization will work. As Paul said, women under the age of 23 are barely going to care. Women age 23-28 are going to care a little. Women age 29-32 are going to care, but may still be workable. Women age 33 or over are going to be near impossible. (The 40 year-old Paul describes is an exception to the rule, I promise.)

4. You already have other women in the pipeline. You can’t do the thing some de facto monogamous men do where you tell the woman you’re not monogamous, and call her an “MLTR” or “OLTR” when in fact you’re monogamous because she’s the only woman you’ve had sex with for at least several weeks. If you’re telling a woman you’re nonmonogamous, you’d better actually be nonmonogamous, which means you’re regularly putting your cock inside at least two different women on a regular basis. Note that both Nicolas and Paul were dating several women at a time, not just one or two.

If you fall into all four of the above parameters, and want to give early verbalization a shot as an experiment or test, please do so. If you don’t fall into the above four categories yet, wait until you do.

And yes, in several more years or decades, many or even most women will agree to this stuff right on the first date (or sooner!). But we’re not quite there yet.

50 Comments on “Verbalizing Nonmonogamy Right Up Front

  1. Great topic. I’d love to hear other readers’ experiences with being upfront about nonmonogamy.

    So far, I always slow play it per the BD model.

  2. Potentially good idea if you don’t have time to waste on going on lots of dates with girls that are looking for “the one”.

    However, if you’re on Tinder, this is near-worthless, and will torpedo your match rate. Many girls are turned off by nonmonogamous guys, especially because it’s a strong signal that you’re a loser (in San Francisco, many guys who can’t get laid turn to the poly community as a last-ditch effort).

    It’s much better to subtly signal that you’re nomonogamous through photos and the first date.

  3. Why are so many women turned off when you state that you are nonmonogamous? Shouldn’t preselection turn in your favor?

  4. You can do this with 100% of women

    Have been doing so for decades  but not by framing it mono v poly but sex 2.0 v sex 3.0

  5. I second Random Jim’s question. We know that in practice  (vs what they think they’re supposed  to think/say/want) women hate monogamy as much as men. And they hate being pestered and suffocated by a clingy, oneitis-y boyfriend. So why not more widespread openness to non-exclusive relationships??

  6. Excellent post. Bookmark it. And remember the line “Every bf you’ve ever had…”

    As far as RandomJin’s question, it’s one of those things with women and their hindbrain: their rational side doesn’t like not being the only one, but her hindbrain wants it. Needs it. Beware: she would never acknowledge it. Don’t ask for her open admission.  Don’t ask for any open admission.

    The hindbrain works in mysterious ways.

  7. Verbalization of nonmonogamy has one thing in common with monogamy: it’s pointless, at least it seems so to me. What do you stand to gain?

  8. Potentially good idea if you don’t have time to waste on going on lots of dates with girls that are looking for “the one”.

    However, if you’re on Tinder, this is near-worthless, and will torpedo your match rate. Many girls are turned off by nonmonogamous guys, especially because it’s a strong signal that you’re a loser (in San Francisco, many guys who can’t get laid turn to the poly community as a last-ditch effort).

    It’s much better to subtly signal that you’re nomonogamous through photos and the first date.

    Correct; anyone trying this needs to assume in advanced that your response rates will get nuked.

    This goes double for anyone in harder cities like San Fran or Toronto.

    Why are so many women turned off when you state that you are nonmonogamous?

    Societal Programming.

    Shouldn’t preselection turn in your favor?

    Haha, hell no. That’s logic. SP always wins.

    I second Random Jim’s question. We know that in practice  (vs what they think they’re supposed  to think/say/want) women hate monogamy as much as men. And they hate being pestered and suffocated by a clingy, oneitis-y boyfriend. So why not more widespread openness to non-exclusive relationships??

    Because the feminine fantasy and expectation is that the monogamous man won’t ever become clingy or boring.

    Like Max said, you guys are attempting to apply guy-logic to female behavior. Can’t do that.

    Verbalization of nonmonogamy has one thing in common with monogamy: it’s pointless, at least it seems so to me. What do you stand to gain?

    A small percentage of men are uncomfortable with my nonmonogamy system and view it as lying or deception during the first few weeks. (Even though it isn’t, as I explained here.) These men would rather just fully disclose everything up-front and take the severe damage it does to the numbers of openers and first dates.

  9. Great post. I would definitely give it a shot at some point.

    They’re also older men; Nicolas being in his late 30s and Paul being 46.

    Verbalizing nonmonogamy upfront would be harder for a man in his late 20s ?

  10. Verbalizing nonmonogamy upfront would be harder for a man in his late 20s ?

    Verbalizing nonmonogamy upfront and making it work would be harder for a man in his 20s than a man in his mid-30s or 40s, generally speaking, yes. Older men have more experience and are (usually) more outcome independent and better at controlling their emotions.

  11. Because the feminine fantasy and expectation is that the monogamous man won’t ever become clingy or boring.

    And of course she’s attracted to the guy she becomes monogamous with because he’s more alpha than her other prospects – only to embark on an all-out campaign to betaize him, which eventually makes him sexually repellent to her.

    They just do what they do without realizing what they’re doing, let alone why.

    Like Max said, you guys are attempting to apply guy-logic to female behavior. Can’t do that.

    I know! After all these years I still have to stop myself and remind myself that I’m thinking like a guy, and women don’t operate that way at all.

  12. Age of Doom: age 33

    BWHAHAHA!  Man, you said it. This is by far one of the most prolific things I’ve learned from you in the last couple years.  A man chooses to to as he wishes. But wishing to game 33+, aka Doomers, is just not efficient use of a man’s valuable time.

    Viva la YM!

  13. I maybe one of those rare 46 yr.old woman who is nonmonogomas/Poly…

    I will say that I married 22 yrs ago ,(total 26yrs together) I was in it for life With one man all four of my kids belonged to him .We have the house, cars, bills, stress, lack of communication due to fear of what we thought our obligation meant to each other… Some how we put a smile on our face and genuinely were polite to each other in front of our kids… In reality our marriage was doomed… We both were holding in so much resentment…being a very Sexual person and expressing what I would like, he would just put up a wall.. And never felt comfortable enough to talk with me..I knew it wasn’t right… But I felt I couldn’t leave even if I tried..

    My husband lives 3hrs away from us where he works in a remote area..I started having a emotional affair and fell in love with a man who was also married and unhappy in his marriage. Long story short, I asked my husband if he saw the next 20yrs like the past.. He replied with “yes” I said, I’m sorry I don’t I want a separation please… The affair gave me clarity and much needed strength to say those words.

    He was a closed minded man before this.. It changed our lives… He said”I don’t want to lose you” he owned his “shit”on his behavior for the past 20 plus years… And I thought, I’m curious to know who he is becoming… So I told him, if we are going to work on this I need you to know I truly fell in love with another man… It wasn’t easy for about a year and a half… We learned to become communicative, able to express our desires and fantasies with Total transparency… Both of the men met..I googled ” is it possible to love more then one person” and that’s where I learned about polyamore..I researched, you tubed.. Discovered Ester Perel, and other people who thrive from this life style. I decided to tell my whole family and friends that our marriage has evolved, we are now life partners.. And we are capable of loving more then each other.. At first, some didn’t understand but wanted to see me happy, and at times I found myself defending my life style… But they are now starting to except..I believe they saw us as what a marriage in today’s society should look like and honestly it was too much pressure for the both of us..

    Our love is expanding, I can’t imagine ever going back to monogamy. I can honestly say I love my life partner, I am thankful that we don’t “own”each other and we are now watching each other thrive in life. And Having fun! With love and compassion ..I am thankful.

  14. How would you guys react if a girl stated she isn’t into monogamy on the first date? I realize a lot of you would be thrilled currently, but if you think back to when you were reluctant/ skeptical/ scared to try nonmonogamy, is there something a girl could say or do to make it more appealing to you?

    I ask because in my experience even some open-minded guys can be “territorial” when it comes to dating. Do you think BD’s strategies for gradually transitioning women to a nonmonogamous relationship would work on men?

  15. Do you think BD’s strategies for gradually transitioning women to a nonmonogamous relationship would work on men?

    I don’t think so. Better just to tell them straight and see how the cards fall. They will react according to their type, either cool with it, blustering about it, or whining. They are unlikely to walk away. They might be a little shocked to hear it the first time.

  16. Damn it guys, almost always in the comments I come across this “Older men are better in every way” trope 🙂

    I guess we young ones just have to wait to get older to start seeing things with your eyes. To me, you are all perfectly fine-tuned machines. It’s amazing how much emotional control you have. Can’t wait to be more mature!

     

  17. How would you guys react if a girl stated she isn’t into monogamy on the first date?

    That is exactly what my girlfriend did when we first met each other face to face on our first date six years ago!

    She was 19 at the time and I was 28. I was excited to have met such a young girl from OKC. We met at Starbucks for our first date face to face for the first time. After a short while, I transitioned the conversation to dating and sex with BD’s “have you been dating a little or a lot lately?” question. She smiled and said “a lot.”

    This led us to trading stories about some of our recent sexual exploits. She seemed enthusiastic about continuing to talk about this subject, as if the first half of our date was semi-boring to her and she wanted to get to this conversation all along. Throughout the convo, she would trash monogamy and told me she’ll never do it again, but, for all I knew, she was sarcastic, as she seemed to say it jokingly.

    After some more talking and flirting, we stepped out of the Starbucks so she could have a cigarette. She told me that she’s looking for an older guy because she wants a very specific type of boyfriend who is both confident and, in her words, “secure in his sexuality because he gets it.” I wasn’t sure what she meant, but I told her that I might not rule out something serious eventually, but I currently am not looking for a girlfriend and just want to have fun and get to know her.

    She became scared that I misinterpreted her, so she assured me that she too wants to get to know, in her words, “a few guys” before she gets serious with any one of them, and that she doesn’t want anything serious “right this minute.”

    After a few more minutes of talking, with her seeming very forward, I suggested we return to my place and “get to know each other some more.” She said that we should go to her place instead, since it’s closer. I was surprised that she lives on her own at age 19, but there were many things that I didn’t know about her and her money at the time.

    So we went to her place and I noticed that she had the book “The Ethical Slut” by her bed. I mentioned it and we both laughed about it. After a pause I leaned in and kissed her. She kissed back and we made out for a while sitting on her bed.

    When I tried to escalate further, she stopped me and said she has something to tell me. She said she wanted to proceed ethically, because she doesn’t want to lose a potential long term lover over this, as other guys have given her shit over this before. She then came right out and said that, no matter how close her and I would ever get, she will never, under any circumstances, be monogamous with me or anyone else! Ever!

    Keep in mind that I had already shared with her certain portions of my own sexual history including my hellish experiences with monogamy. She told me later that I came off as very sexually open minded. In her words, I had a “great attitude” towards sexuality.

    She then proceeded to explain her non-monogamous attitude via her sexual history. She told me that she lost her virginity at 12 and from age 12 to 16 she was completely non-monogamous with a decent amount of casual and semi-casual male lovers.

    Then, at age 16, she was pressured into monogamy for the first time ever, but ended up cheating on the guy with two of his friends 3 days after she agreed to go mono (both on the same day, but not a threesome – the two dudes didn’t know about each other). She said, “he never found out and they never found out, but still.” She had four monogamous boyfriends from age 16-19 and, according to her, she cheated on all of them, with the last two finding out and, in her words, “making a scene as if it’s such a big fucking deal.”

    She tried to calm her last monogamous boyfriend down by saying that the guy she cheated on him with “only fucked me in the ass.” She said, “I thought that would at least calm him down, but it had the reverse affect.”

    So after he broke up with her and called her bad names, she vowed never to be monogamous again, because, she said, “it’s such a waste of a healthy body.” This was before she was a super active member of her Wiccan circle that has its own poly community that she was technically introduced to by her mom at age 12.

    She went on to say that she felt love and very strong feelings for her previous mono boyfriends and that her sleeping with others did not lessen or diminish those feelings at all. She just felt entitled to have sex every time she was horny, regardless of whether her main man was there or not. Because of her upbringing, a part of her sincerely did not understand why her boyfriends became so upset.

    She told her second to last mono guy who found out about her cheating, “would it make you feel better if I said he came on my tits and not inside me? That’s a serious question.” Again, she couldn’t seem to understand monogamy because she wasn’t raised with it.

    She said her best female friend at the time (who I ended up fucking eventually) took the opposite route and went monogamous because, in her friends’ words, “cheating makes it more hot,” but she (my girl) rejected that because she wanted to make sure that her man “isn’t a cry baby.” So she said that, even if she falls madly in love with me, her and I will never be sexually exclusive, and if I’m not okay with that, I should just leave now.

    I just silently stroked her hair with a big smile on my face, pulled her towards me and started kissing her again. We then ended up having sex twice and I spent the night. Years later, I learned that I was the third (and final) guy that she fucked on that same day!

    She became my serious OLTR girlfriend years later after putting her through the fuck buddy, friends with benefits, and MLTR phases. Six years later we still have our open relationship, even though we no longer live together (indeed, things have gotten better since she moved out and we, or rather she, postponed me impregnating her for complicated reasons).

    The point is, we’re still happy, and as non-monogamous as ever, despite me sadly having to (for now) postpone impregnating her due to complex reasons involving her insecurity and other things having to do with her lesbian FWB.

    Other than that though, it’s all good! And I wouldn’t still be with her today if it weren’t for us being poly. That last part is probably important to point out.

     

  18. You should write to Reader’s Wives, they actually pay for long, drivelling made up poorly written stories like yours

    I have never lied about my sex life on the internet or anywhere else.

    But if you choose to believe I’m a liar, suit yourself. I would never share such things with blue pillers anyway. Most will not believe what’s possible. Sad.

  19. A good example of how Blackdragon’s views are reality-based, in that they adapt to new information as times change.  Thanks for the insightful update!

    But now for my question.

    @BD:

    In an earlier article, “The 6 Levels of Monogamy vs. Nonmonogamy Belief”, you wrote that you were at level 5.  You said you used to be at level 4 but were moving up.  Would you say you’re still at level 5, or have you continued to move up and are now at level 6?

  20. I second Random Jim’s question. We know that in practice  (vs what they think they’re supposed  to think/say/want) women hate monogamy as much as men. And they hate being pestered and suffocated by a clingy, oneitis-y boyfriend. So why not more widespread openness to non-exclusive relationships??

    Most women are obsessed with having a man who is in love with them, That they’re in love with, thinks they’re the prettiest woman in the world, and looks at them like a monkey looks at a cupcake.

    Personally I have yet to meet a woman over 40 who won’t laugh at you when you suggest you might want to fuck other women.  Some are open to threesomes that includes another woman.

  21. How would you guys react if a girl stated she isn’t into monogamy on the first date?

    Elated.

    I realize a lot of you would be thrilled currently, but if you think back to when you were reluctant/ skeptical/ scared to try nonmonogamy, is there something a girl could say or do to make it more appealing to you?

    To the typical man, no. Men are too territorial.

    I ask because in my experience even some open-minded guys can be “territorial” when it comes to dating. Do you think BD’s strategies for gradually transitioning women to a nonmonogamous relationship would work on men?

    Only partially, and with a lot of complaining. Men are less tolerant of nonmonogamy than women. But, the one advantage you have is that men get oneitis. So once a man has oneitis for you, he’ll put up with all kinds of stuff, including you playing around with other men. He’ll scream his head off about it constantly though.

    In an earlier article, “The 6 Levels of Monogamy vs. Nonmonogamy Belief”, you wrote that you were at level 5.  You said you used to be at level 4 but were moving up.  Would you say you’re still at level 5, or have you continued to move up and are now at level 6?

    I’d say I’m at level 5.5. I don’t think I’ll ever get to level 6, since in some ways it’s a mirror of Alpha 1.0.

    Personally I have yet to meet a woman over 40 who won’t laugh at you when you suggest you might want to fuck other women.

    Yep. It’s a problem.

  22. Before I read any of BD’s stuff, I would hook up with a girl, and set up new meetups just the way BD would, but the first mention of “What are we”, or “What are you looking for”, I told them I wasn’t looking for anything serious right now but we’ll see where it goes.  That bought me a little time, but not much, before they’d ask if I was sleeping with anyone else.  Like BD, I always am honest with women, but I didn’t try to avoid it, I just answered them that yes I was.  They almost always found it unacceptable at that moment and cut off contact for a day or two, then came back with , “I guess it’s ok for now, but I’m not going on like this forever.”

    So not exactly did I tell them right up front, but I did as soon as they asked about it.  Never had one just walk away.  They acted like they would, but after a day or so, they changed their minds.

    Since I’ve read BD, my relationships, game, and roster have improved tremendously, so I still have no intention of just putting out that I’m nonmonogamous right up front.  When I look back at the ones that I told the quickest, they are the ones that tend to be monogamous and only see me when they are in between monogamous relationships.  In other words, they have no intention of sticking with me, just having fun with me as find the next mono guy, and I only see them in brief 3 month or so spurts until they enter a new mono relationship.  They are FB, and they are really great for FB.  Purely about the hookup and want to waste no time on anything else.  Do all kinds of naughty things with me, and then get in a mono relationship and withhold the same things from their boyfriend.

  23. they are the ones that tend to be monogamous and only see me when they are in between monogamous relationships.

    LSNFTE FTW.

  24. But, the one advantage you have is that men get oneitis. So once a man has oneitis for you, he’ll put up with all kinds of stuff, including you playing around with other men. He’ll scream his head off about it constantly though.

    Pretty much what happened with my most recent guy, even though he initially said he was cool with an open relationship.

    She went on to say that she felt love and very strong feelings for her previous mono boyfriends and that her sleeping with others did not lessen or diminish those feelings at all. She just felt entitled to have sex every time she was horny, regardless of whether her main man was there or not. 

    That’s exactly how I feel! Your girlfriend sounds awesome:)

  25. BWHAHAHA!  Man, you said it. This is by far one of the most prolific things I’ve learned from you in the last couple years.  A man chooses to to as he wishes. But wishing to game 33+, aka Doomers, is just not efficient use of a man’s valuable time.

    Viva la YM!

    I believe BD avoids married women, but I think I found a strange loophole with over 33’s.  If they are married and cheating, once they are out of the marriage and dating, they constantly come back to me.  They’ve told me other men have suggested an FB arrangement with them and they are repulsed and never talk to the guy again, even if she was beginning to like him, and then she’ll quip about how that’s strange since she doesn’t feel like that about me.

    It’s like this, if they are married, they don’t want a relationship with you.  You are their FB, at least if you do it right, and it’s easy if they are married.  Once they become single, they still see you as FB, and have no problem with it.  Yet they won’t really let anyone else new into that role.  For me, those women are the ones that LSNFTE me for long periods as they have bf’s, and only see me short periods in between, but I’m their go-to each time they have a breakup.

  26. I believe BD avoids married women, but I think I found a strange loophole with over 33’s.  If they are married and cheating, once they are out of the marriage and dating, they constantly come back to me.  They’ve told me other men have suggested an FB arrangement with them and they are repulsed and never talk to the guy again, even if she was beginning to like him, and then she’ll quip about how that’s strange since she doesn’t feel like that about me.

    Exactly right.

    It’s like this, if they are married, they don’t want a relationship with you.  You are their FB, at least if you do it right, and it’s easy if they are married.

    Correct again. Yes, I tend to avoid married women (because the potential for drama is too high) unless they’re in an open marriage, but I love FBs who have boyfriends, of any age, for exactly the reasons you stated.

    Women in “monogamous” relationships with husbands or boyfriends, including over-33s, have far less ASD than any other women out there. (Reason #243 monogamy doesn’t work.)

  27. I believe BD avoids married women, but I think I found a strange loophole with over 33’s.  If they are married and cheating, once they are out of the marriage and dating, they constantly come back to me.  They’ve told me other men have suggested an FB arrangement with them and they are repulsed and never talk to the guy again, even if she was beginning to like him, and then she’ll quip about how that’s strange since she doesn’t feel like that about me.

    This makes absolutely no freaking sense to a logical guy like me. It’s too counterintuitive… Do ALL women work like this?

  28. @ Small Survivor, the idea here is that the guys probably come in too hot or too cold. BD had an excellent piece on how you have to keep the heat level just right for an extended period of time to make it work, likening it to a shower…….you don’t want to scald them or freeze them out, it needs to be just the right level of lukewarm and then turn it down from there.

    In fairness to women, and BD’s blog is my favorite manosphere haunt exactly because he is fair to women, men go for shit all the time that they kind of had to be lead into. I think the technical term might be systematic desensitization.

     

  29. This makes absolutely no freaking sense to a logical guy like me. It’s too counterintuitive… Do ALL women work like this?

    I cannot say if all women do.  I am speaking about over 33’s.  The explanation for their hypocrisy is that once they are over 33 they are provider hunting, so anyone new suggesting an FB arrangement is almost insulting to them.  That is not what they are looking for.  The key is that I made them FB prior to them becoming a provider hunter (because they were already married to a provider and weren’t looking).

    The same likely goes for women over 33 who you made FB prior to her reaching that dreaded age.

  30. This makes absolutely no freaking sense to a logical guy like me. It’s too counterintuitive… Do ALL women work like this?

    Yeah, pretty much. BD’s sample size, mine, as well as many other’s who are on board with non-monogamy would likely concur .

    Over 33’s are from the generations that recoil at the idea of non-monogamy, despite the very clear cognitive dissonance they display when cheating on their husbands, with reasons such as they’re contemplating divorce, their husband is emotionally abusive, etc. Women are rational in the sense they can rationalize  any bad behavior by blaming someone or something other than themselves. But they are as DTF as any 20-something if you catch them in the right cycle of month and moon. Ha.

    But, as BD says, they’re drama. They can be nothing but drama at such a phase in their life. And, women are not generally clumsy with the technology that, as BD has written about, makes concealing your cheating nearly impossible. So, not only will you deal with her drama, but you’re going to deal the the drama of a very angry husband, fiancee, lover, ex, or whatever. Until you’ve been threatened by a simp beta or alpha male 1.0 for fucking his wife, you’ve not really experienced drama. It sucks having to watch your until shit blow over. Why even go there.

    I don’t know if I agree with the premise that they’re all provider seeking. When a married woman decides to cheat, she’ll first seek the attention, gratification, and excitement she had in her prime years. As some of you fellas would say, she jumps back on the cock carousel. Then, once she’s somewhat satisfied, she’ll shift to more of a long-term outlook and perhaps seek a man who’s more the prototypical accomplished man for his age, to provide her both financial security and status, should she decide to pair-bond with him. Having some ability to take care of herself coupled with the knowledge that she can easily return to cheating as her form of non-monogamy (while prohibiting the same for her new husband) leads women to have their cake and eat it too.

    YW and VYW are so far superior to married women that why bother.

     

  31. That’s exactly how I feel! Your girlfriend sounds awesome:)

    Thank you! Yes, she is truly astounding and I’m very much in love with her.

    I’m not surprised that you feel like her. Contrary to the beliefs of the sheep, women like her (and you) are not as rare or non-existent as everyone thinks. But they won’t reveal their existence to most men, because most men are territorial slut shamers. So a lot of them will simply cheat – a practice which I have great sympathy for.

    What these men are missing out on is what I would call a sexual utopia, but they may very well describe it as a dystopia because their idea of heaven is fucking hundreds of women while those women magically regrow their hymens every time and fuck only them! It’s pathetic!

    Now let me try to answer your other questions:

    I realize a lot of you would be thrilled currently, but if you think back to when you were reluctant/ skeptical/ scared to try nonmonogamy, is there something a girl could say or do to make it more appealing to you?

    Hmmm. See, back when I believed in monogamy, I wouldn’t necessarily have objected to an open relationship per se, but only if we started out that way.

    Example: The sixth girl I ever had sex with (when I was a junior in high school) was the second (and final) girl that I never cheated on (and she never cheated on me, to my knowledge). We were both 16. She had extremely strong feelings for me and told me that the thought of me doing something with another girl got her so nervous that she would literally vomit at the thought; terrified that she would lose me. That’s probably the #1 reason I didn’t cheat on her. I REALLY didn’t want to hurt her if I’d ever get caught.

    Now, imagine if she, all of us a sudden, would have suggested an open relationship, in contrast to her earlier attitude. I’d know our relationship is over and she probably fell in love with another dude whom she now wants to be with. BUT if her and I would have been open/poly from the beginning, that would have been cool, I guess.

    So if you want to be upfront, I wouldn’t agree to monogamy and then change later. That will just cause massive drama.

    I ask because in my experience even some open-minded guys can be “territorial” when it comes to dating. Do you think BD’s strategies for gradually transitioning women to a nonmonogamous relationship would work on men?

    What a lot of men are worried about is gold diggers seeing them as beta chumps and wanting to cheat on them, but not wanting to go through the headache of lying and hiding. So these women will stay with a beta boyfriend (for the money, convenience, social status, etc…) and virtually never have sex with him, while they fuck real alpha males on the side constantly.

    My best advice is to show a boyfriend that he comes first, that you see him as alpha, and you are emotionally exclusive with him. Make sure you have sex with him as often, or more often, than your side men. Just make him feel respected and number one, and not like a chump holding your purse while you fuck others.

    When you are still in your casual sex phase with him (before you two get serious), suggest a threesome with him and another woman. When you become serious, remind him of that past event, and suggest that he make it up to you by giving you a threesome with him and another dude. Never be completely mono and do your best to acclimate him to your lifestyle.

    Hopefully, eventually he’ll just realize that that’s how you are. Whereas most girls would cheat and pretend like they’re “pure,” you’re actually honest. If he’s mature enough, he’ll see that eventually.

    Other than that, I hope you find an alpha 2.0 who reads this blog, lol. Men can be such closed minded territorial bigots. That’s why I wholeheartedly endorse cheating if worse comes to worse.

    Hang in there Alexandra! There are more women and men like us than you think. I hope this was helpful.

     

  32. What do you do in the opposite situation?  Where she asks you before the first date “what you are looking for”

  33. What do you do in the opposite situation?  Where she asks you before the first date “what you are looking for”

    Don’t directly answer the question. Shrug and say something about how you “haven’t really thought about it” or are “open to anything” then re-direct a question back to her to re-assert conversational control.

  34. So if you want to be upfront, I wouldn’t agree to monogamy and then change later. That will just cause massive drama.

    Totally, that makes sense. Being upfront is key so the guy isn’t under the impression you’ve been monogamous all along and now just want to fuck someone else.

    What a lot of men are worried about is gold diggers seeing them as beta chumps and wanting to cheat on them, but not wanting to go through the headache of lying and hiding.So these women will stay with a beta boyfriend (for the money, convenience, social status, etc…) and virtually never have sex with him, while they fuck real alpha males on the side constantly.

    Fair enough, I can see how that would be a legitimate concern. Whenever I’m dating someone we always take turns paying for things like restaurants and I make it clear I don’t expect (or even want) gifts so I can safely say I’ve never stayed with a guy for financial benefit. I work in healthcare and I’m not sure I’ve dated anyone of higher social status. I always have sex with guys I’m seeing, and if I lose interest in having sex with them I break it off because it would be unfair to continue a relationship with no sex. I don’t “friend zone”  guys.

    Although in my opinion, guys shouldn’t allow themselves to be essentially friend-zoned and do boyfriend stuff for girls they aren’t even sleeping with. For example I know a girl who has an ex-boyfriend who she is now “friends” with who lets her borrow his car, lets her crash at his apartment downtown when she’s partying and he’s out of town, buys her drinks at clubs even though she will then go home with other guys (never him) and she has no interest in sleeping with him at all anymore. It’s kind of sad to see because he’s obviously still into her but he could just cut it off with her.

    When you are still in your casual sex phase with him (before you two get serious), suggest a threesome with him and another woman.When you become serious, remind him of that past event, and suggest that he make it up to you by giving you a threesome with him and another dude. 

    Good idea, I like threesomes. Never had one with 2 guys though and that is definitely on my bucket list!

    Never be completely mono and do your best to acclimate him to your lifestyle.

    That’s the plan! Thanks for the advice Jack. I hope to one day have a similar lifestyle to what you and your girlfriend have:)

  35. Only partially, and with a lot of complaining. Men are less tolerant of nonmonogamy than women. But, the one advantage you have is that men get oneitis. So once a man has oneitis for you, he’ll put up with all kinds of stuff, including you playing around with other men. He’ll scream his head off about it constantly though.

    Oh yes. When women get this right it will blow your mind what their guys will put up with. We met a couple who swing the other day. She gets fucked by multiple guys and girls (my GF and I plus two other guys all fucked her that night) and her husband gets to watch. He can’t touch anyone. They have literally been all over the world swinging and he has never touched a single girl while she’s be fucked by so many guys and girls its not funny. The reason he can’t touch anyone…..wait for it….”she gets too jealous!”. I shit you not!!!

    Seen lots of other less extreme examples in swinging as well where its all about the women and the guys follow them around like puppy dogs making sure that everything that happens is about their pleasure.  Causes me grief quite often as because I’m not like that and act a lot more alpha with their girls. I take charge and make it all about me and instead of getting pissed off by it their girls will get super turned on by it. The guys don’t expect this and start getting the shits because it doesn’t make sense to them.

    Personally I have yet to meet a woman over 40 who won’t laugh at you when you suggest you might want to fuck other women.  Some are open to threesomes that includes another woman.

    They are definitely out there. Mainly recently single, above avg sex drive women coming out of longer term marriages etc. Before my current GF and before I found BD’s sites I was spinning plates. I had two long term FB‘s both over 40 when I met them that I told straight up that I wasn’t interested in a relationship and just wanted a FB. Both of them loved the idea and loved the fact they could tell me funny stories about all about the other guys they were fucking etc.

  36. Personally I have yet to meet a woman over 40 who won’t laugh at you when you suggest you might want to fuck other women.

    I really don’t get this. Why arent older women super easy to fuck and super open to everything? Like what is the point of dating an older woman other than her being an easy game? Why the hell would anyone date an older woman if she was harder than young ones? To me the point of older woman is that she is experienced, knows what she wants and doesnt make any troubles and just sees sex as something natural, quick and easy going. If an older woman isnt like this then 1) I dont see the point of dating her and 2) There is some serious issue with her development / history then if she hasn’t reached this level yet.

  37. How would you guys react if a girl stated she isn’t into monogamy on the first date? I realize a lot of you would be thrilled currently, but if you think back to when you were reluctant/ skeptical/ scared to try nonmonogamy, is there something a girl could say or do to make it more appealing to you?

    I ask because in my experience even some open-minded guys can be “territorial” when it comes to dating. Do you think BD’s strategies for gradually transitioning women to a nonmonogamous relationship would work on men?

    The best thing to do would be to openly advertise it from the start. You will have less guys to chose from but you dont need to then go on dates with guys who would find this unacceptable. I have seen in recent months some girls advertising this on online dating, so I guess it works for them. You will attract a lot of guys who think you are going to be a super easy game though, if you like that then fine and if not you can maybe also appear selective.

  38. The guys don’t expect this and start getting the shits because it doesn’t make sense to them.

    Thats why they are in that situation – because it doesn’t make sense to them.

  39. I really don’t get this. Why arent older women super easy to fuck and super open to everything?

    To repeat: you guys are attempting to apply guy-logic to female behavior. Can’t do that.

    Seems to be a recurring theme in this thread.

    Like what is the point of dating an older woman other than her being an easy game? Why the hell would anyone date an older woman if she was harder than young ones?

    1. Some guys genuinely don’t like much younger women.

    2. Some guys are really old (as in 60+) and don’t want to or can’t date women in their 20s and have to make over-33s work.

    3. To get a live-in OLTR, since doing so with a woman under 30 is very risky. (PF was 33 when I met her and we didn’t get serious until she was about 35, and I was glad; I didn’t want some young girl as a live-in OLTR.)

    To me the point of older woman is that she is experienced, knows what she wants and doesnt make any troubles and just sees sex as something natural, quick and easy going. If an older woman isnt like this then 1) I dont see the point of dating her

    Barring the 3 exceptions above, I completely agree.

  40. To me the point of older woman is that she is experienced, knows what she wants and doesnt make any troubles and just sees sex as something natural, quick and easy going. If an older woman isnt like this then 1) I dont see the point of dating her

    Seems to be a completely different dynamic in Asia.  Young women are often obsessed with the value of their virginity for marriage. I’ve met heaps of sex positive women in the 30-40 range that never even got laid until their late 20s. After they get married, they make up for lost time. Sometimes it’s after they divorce, sometimes still married. There isn’t so much of this Disney expectation about romance and sex within a marriage here, it’s pretty explicitly a contractual arrangement to create a family. Men have always been free to have sex with other women, but these days women are claiming the same rights, particularly in the urban middle classes
    I’ve shagged married women who are very proud of their virtue, saying that they never had sex with a guy before they were married. Sex with another guy after is considered a relatively mild misdemeanor compared to losing your virginity before marriage.

    I’ve had sex with a few virgins, but it tends to lead to drama and cause pain. I generally avoid it.

  41. I’ve had sex with a few virgins, but it tends to lead to drama and cause pain. I generally avoid it.

    Ive had several virgins who were interested but I never had the patience (or that special skill to get them fast) to get to sex with them. I used to think long time ago that it was nice idea to bang a virgin and but these days I realize that all that mental stuff she tells me or her freaking out about anything sexual or all those long dates where nothing happens are almost never if ever worth it.

    3. To get a live-in OLTR, since doing so with a woman under 30 is very risky. (PF was 33 when I met her and we didn’t get serious until she was about 35, and I was glad; I didn’t want some young girl as a live-in OLTR.)

    Yes I agree completely though Ive met several who were just under 30 who seemed reasonable, but perhaps here they hit that mark a bit earlier because I also notice here many women around 28-30 who demonstrate the issues you talk about with 33.

  42. Fair enough, I can see how that would be a legitimate concern. Whenever I’m dating someone we always take turns paying for things like restaurants and I make it clear I don’t expect (or even want) gifts so I can safely say I’ve never stayed with a guy for financial benefit.

    You should also make it clear to the guy that it is perfectly okay for him to have sex with other girls.

    Please read Marty’s post above. That is exactly what right wing alpha 1.0s within the manosphere picture when a woman proposes an open relationship. They think they will be c***olded (if I say the word, WordPress will censor my entire post) as beta male chumps holding the woman’s purse while she fucks tons of men and they can only watch.

    In fairness, that is indeed what many women do to beta males. If you’re a beta, an open relationship simply means that the woman will sleep with multiple men while the poor sap of a boyfriend just sits at home and masturbates like a loser. Of course, the solution to that is to not be a beta instead of railing against open relationships.

    When I point that out to them, they say that c*****olding is inevitable because it will always be easier for a girl to get laid than the guy, which means she’ll have more partners than he. What he fails to realize is that it’s not a competition. My girlfriend, for example, has more side lovers than I currently do. But so what? I have my side lovers too, and her and I have group sex as well. It’s about sexual satisfaction, not a pathetic thrill of the hunt competition with the person you love.

    So yeah, read Marty’s post if you want a description of the horror story that some men visualize when they think “open relationship.” To avoid this, assure the guy that he can have sex with other girls, you’ll have threesomes and group sex with him if he wants, and you might even hook him up with other females if he wishes. That will go a long way to quell his c***olding fears.

    I work in healthcare

    Mmmmmmmm……………nurses.

     I don’t “friend zone”  guys.

    Good. That’s abuse.

    Although in my opinion, guys shouldn’t allow themselves to be essentially friend-zoned and do boyfriend stuff for girls they aren’t even sleeping with.

    Agreed.

    Good idea, I like threesomes. Never had one with 2 guys though and that is definitely on my bucket list!

    Ha! I’ve fulfilled everything on my bucket list, except two things – a mother/daughter threesome and fucking a midget!

    That’s the plan! Thanks for the advice Jack. I hope to one day have a similar lifestyle to what you and your girlfriend have:)

    Way more women achieve it than men, so if I can do it, you definitely can. Just stay away from the insecure betas and the territorial alpha 1s. Screen for sexual open mindedness and alpha 2.0 tendencies.

    Good luck!

     

  43. They are definitely out there. Mainly recently single, above avg sex drive women coming out of longer term marriages etc. Before my current GF and before I found BD’s sites I was spinning plates. I had two long term FB’s both over 40 when I met them that I told straight up that I wasn’t interested in a relationship and just wanted a FB. Both of them loved the idea and loved the fact they could tell me funny stories about all about the other guys they were fucking etc.

    yeah no doubt.  On a date most women over 40 are pursuing monogamy though.  That’s their goal.  Anything else is a failure.  talk of non-monogamy is poison in my experience.  But, as has been talked about here, what women do and say are 2 different things.  I’m fucking a married 40 something woman right now who is asking me to be monogamous, lol.  I’m like are you serious?  “Oh yeah me and my husband don’t have sex anymore.  Like once a year!”  That’s a woman over 40 for you.  Another who has a bf tells me “I would never be fucking 2 different guys.  Just before she has fucked me and her current bf in the same week. they have little lope holes to justify this, like temporary breakups or “we don’t have sex anymore.”

    In the end I have a different approach.

  44. Serious question.
    Do any of you guys on here ever listen to anything a woman says to you?

    If you want to get laid without being accused of assault you do but even then non-verbal ques are still the most important thing to read to keep you from getting into that situation in the first place.  Women are non-verbal ques experts.. But even if they grab my dick I’m still very cautious how I proceed without a verbal confirmation. “You comfortable with this?”

  45. Do any of you guys on here ever listen to anything a woman says to you?

    You have to listen to what they say. But you can’t take it at face value, its more important to watch what they do. You also have to learn to decode what they are saying. eg. what John was saying above about his girl saying she would never fuck two guys at the same time.

    One of my fuck buddies was telling me the other day (after we just had sex) about how she can’t get a single guy to have sex with at the moment. 2 mins later she’s telling me about how she fucked this old FB, another old FB and then one of her clients in the last two weeks. So literally 4 different guys in two weeks. I’m like I thought you said you couldn’t find any sex. In her mind none of us count as we are not available and not guys who are going to have potential for an ongoing relationship.

  46. I’m a 32 year old – been in an open marriage for 1 year and a half. Just for kicks, I’m 5’3” with a baby face. I’ve found my success on tinder, though lately I’m trying to get more into daygame.

    How I’ve done it:
    I had virtually no success with my OkCupid open marriage profile. So my experience was not been successful by having it on my profile. BUT I have more success verbalizing it in person: on Tinder, I’ve had pretty good success finding girls that hardly raise any objections over my being married. Usually, I just non-chalantly raise my marriage status within the first 10 min. of the first date. If it’s not a big deal to you, it’s largely not a big deal to her, is how I go about it. Most don’t even ask anything further and the date continues like nothing. Others are positively curious. Youngest was a 22 year old but I mostly average 27-33. These have all been “normals”. Sometimes I wonder if there’s even a point in verbalizing, but I’d rather be upfront – that’s just how I prefer. 
     
    I usually don’t seem to have a problem getting to sex. But I do seem to struggle with keeping them around and making them an FB. I would wonder if I was giving off too much of a player vibe, as I’d usually hear a joke from the women about it.  Anyhow, that’s been my experience. 
     

     

     

  47. I had virtually no success with my OkCupid open marriage profile. So my experience was not been successful by having it on my profile. BUT I have more success verbalizing it in person: on Tinder, I’ve had pretty good success finding girls that hardly raise any objections over my being married. Usually, I just non-chalantly raise my marriage status within the first 10 min. of the first date. If it’s not a big deal to you, it’s largely not a big deal to her

    That has been my experience as well. Verbalizing this stuff in person when she’s actually experiencing you in real life seems to work better than putting it on your profile.

    Again though, you need to do this with younger women, under age 33, and the younger, the less they’ll care.

  48. I’d know our relationship is over and she probably fell in love with another dude whom she now wants to be with. BUT if her and I would have been open/poly from the beginning, that would have been cool, I guess.

    Oooh, so that’s why part of the method of converting your GF to nonmono is to assure her that she is your GF and no one else, or else to never promise it in the first place! It always seemed strange to me that girls could find it okay for their guys to be nonmono early on but then start demanding monogamy…

  49. Hi BD, hi everyone,

     

    First of all, I’m extremely happy to be credited in this blog!

     

    About the 2 girls who contacted me, I met only one of them, and it was really an unforgettable moment. But she was more into ONS at that moment so we never saw each other again (but we spent a really good night and she may come back in the future).

    So, I continued to state my non-monogamy. I tried sometimes to hide it, but I’m a very bad lier and it ended up badly.

    I actually live with someone (OLTR), and I really love her, and don’t hesitate to speak about her. It gives me a very strange frame.

    Also, I target only VYW. I got issues with older girls (no need to get up to 33), so I prefer young ones. And they have my personal preference, too. I also moved from generic dating sites to specialized ones. I like SD sites as girls in there are interested in older guys so I don’t have to send tons of openers. I find my response rate higher, even if I clearly state that I don’t pay for anything besides drinks. I also find them far more mature in there.

    Stating-non monogamy generated one issue: sometimes, some of them really felt for me. And knowing my non-monogamy, they decided to drop the relationship quite early. It’s a bit annoying but thinking about it I’ve avoided drama. And I run away from drama as it can hurt my main relationship.

     

    In conclusion, I would say that stating my non-monogamy hasn’t been an issue. But mainly because I’m targeting the kind of women who don’t give a shit about monogamy. If I was interested in women in their thirties, even in their late twenties, I’m pretty sure it would have been very different.

     

    About your other points, I completely agree with point 4: Having someone in my life makes things far more logical and easy. In my opinion, you always need to have someone in your life whatever the type of relationship you have with him/her. Sex, affection and tenderness are basic needs for any human being. Craving for them makes you creepy and unhappy.

    I also agree that girls in the US look less opened to sex than French ones: The 1-date model is the way to go here.

    The only point where you are wrong is point 1. I was really starting my VYW run by the time I wrote this message. And I’m still only at the intermediate level as I don’t have much time to allocate to improve my skill.

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