As many of you know, when I was younger I was traditionally, monogamous married for nine years. During this nine-year stretch, I didn’t date or have sex with any other women besides my wife, obviously.

I didn’t go out on any dates. I didn’t flirt with women (at least not really). I didn’t engage in any conversations with women actually designed to lead to sex. I didn’t hang around attractive women (for the most part). I didn’t get any compliments from women. Women didn’t flirt with me (with rare exception).

Being long-term monogamous, I did what most long-term monogamous men eventually do. I stopped dressing nice, stopped paying attention to my physical appearance, gained weight, and let my hair get messy and stupid. I just stopped giving a shit about that stuff. Also like most long-term monogamous men, my testosterone dropped like a stone. My manliness, virility, and vitality slowly diminished.

For those of you who have never been in a scenario like that, just imagine you did that for nine years.

After those nine years, how do you think you would rate your own attractiveness? High, low, or average?

I wasn’t an ugly guy. I was a chubby guy, and I certainly wasn’t a good-looking guy, but I was average, not ugly at all. But do you think I thought I was average? After nine years of a lifestyle like that? Of course not. I thought I was ugly.

After my divorce in 2007, I questioned my ability to have sex with any “hot” woman. Why would any hot woman want to have sex with me? I’m ugly. I knew I could get sex, because hey, even ugly guys can eventually get laid, but I figured that for me to score with a hot woman would be extremely difficult.

A few months later, I had the experience I talked about here, where a woman I called “Alex,” a super hot, blonde, trim, sexy woman on a first date wanted to kiss me so bad that I was not only surprised, but I didn’t know what to do.

Why would a hot girl like this want to kiss me? And kiss me this fast? I’m ugly.

That night was over ten years ago, and I still remember driving home that night being totally confused, shaking my head as I drove. Alex is hot as hell. Why would a woman who is hot as hell want to kiss me so badly on a first date? I figured that an ugly guy like me could get a hot woman, but that it would take seven or eight dates and thousands of dollars spent to overcome my lack of physical attractiveness. This was a first date at a coffee shop in a bookstore that lasted about an hour, with about $7 spent. That’s all it took… and she wanted to kiss me? Already?

It didn’t make any sense to me.

After I had two more similar experiences like this, I slowly started to realize that my self-perception of what I looked like was not accurate to the external world. I realized that what other people saw when they looked at me was a different person than I saw in the mirror.

When I looked in the mirror, I saw a chubby, ugly, unattractive beta male. But other people, attractive women included, saw someone else. No, they didn’t see some hot, ripped guy, because I certainly wasn’t that either. But they certainly didn’t see the “ugly” guy that I saw in the mirror. They saw someone who was at least a little better looking than me, or else I wouldn’t have multiple attractive women interested in me on first dates when I wasn’t spending any money and when they knew I lived in a shitty little apartment with no bed because I was in the middle of a divorce.

Fast forward many years later, and as Blackdragon, I started seeing a pattern, over and over again with many guys I talked to. A guy would email me and ask for some dating advice. Then he would warn me that he was “really ugly” or “kinda ugly” or “unattractive” or “seriously ugly,” and that this would be a real problem for him to attract women. Maybe, he would say, my techniques wouldn’t work for him because he was “so ugly.”

So, I’d take his word for it and give him advice as if he was really fucking ugly, and wouldn’t give it another thought.

Then one day one of these guys actually sent me a picture of himself. I thought it was some kind of joke. The guy in the picture looked perfectly normal. Not gorgeous, but not ugly at all. Perfectly normal; someone who, if he just wore some better clothes, would be perfectly attractive to plenty of women, including very hot ones.

Then it happened again. A guy who would self-identify as ugly would send me a pic of himself, and he was better looking than me.

This started happening over and over again. The pattern was obvious.

The Western world is full of guys who are average looking or even mildly good-looking who actually think they’re ugly and that women won’t like them.

Normally, I would think these men are insane. But, I remember back when I was a recently monogamous beta and self-identified as ugly or unattractive myself when I really wasn’t. So I get it.

My theory, and I could be wrong but I don’t think so, is there are millions of decent-looking men all over the Western world who think they’re ugly because of these three factors:

1. Cultural deregulation of the sexual marketplace, where men need to go hunt for women instead of just being handed one like in the 1950s.

2. Social media, where really good-looking men and women are played up and displayed as if they’re much more common than they actually are in real life.

3. The ever-continuing shift to the political left in the Collapsing West, playing up things like feminism and strong women and downplaying (and even insulting) men, masculinity, and fathers.

Because of these three factors all working in tandem, tons of decent-looking men have actually become brainwashed into thinking they’re unattractive when they aren’t.

You may fall into this category. Statistically speaking, there are thousands of you guys reading these words right now who are better looking than me but who self-identify as ugly and think hot women won’t be attracted to you.

Since this is a totally irrational belief, there is no way I can convince you guys of this in just a single little article like this, but I’m going to try my best anyway.

What Is Ugly?

What does a truly ugly guy look like? As I talk about in my book Get To Sex Fast, when it comes to men, ugly means you fall into one of three categories:

1. You’re hugely fat. I didn’t say overweight. I didn’t say chubby. I said hugely fat, as in you’re 80 or 100 pounds overweight or more. If that’s you, then yeah, you’re in the “ugly” category in that women won’t consider you attractive.

2. You have a severely fucked-up face. This means the features of your face are pretty twisted, like your eyes are really close together, or your ears are fucking gigantic (bigger than Obama’s), or your nose is absolutely gigantic, or has been broken 13 times and points sideways, or you have a titanic-sized caveman jaw that sticks out over an inch from your mouth. You know, things like that. I’m talking some real facial problems that, as soon as people see you, they immediately have a visceral negative reaction, like “Damn, that’s guy’s ugly!”

3. You are physically deformed. You were born without a nose, or you have disgusting red burns over half of your face. Etc.

If you fall into one of those three categories, then yes, I agree you’re ugly. If your woman-life is important to you, you either need to lose weight or save up some cash and get some corrective surgical procedures done.

But do you really fall into one of those categories? I bet you don’t. I bet you’re nowhere even close. I bet you look perfectly fine. It’s just that since you’ve spent so much time as a beta, or since you’ve been in a monogamous relationship or marriage so long, or since you’re a virgin, or since it’s been so long since you’ve had sex, or since you’ve never fucked a really hot girl, you think you’re ugly, when in reality, you look perfectly decent (or could if you cleaned up your look a little).

Again, this used to be me, so I understand exactly what you’re feeling. You just need to snap out of it. You’re not ugly. (Or at least, it’s very unlikely you are.)

Try to keep this in mind. And remember that I’ve talked to countless men who said they were “ugly” and they were better looking than me, and I’ve been having sex with numerous hot women for almost 12 years now.

You’re not ugly.

You just need to get your ass out there, get some confidence and outcome independence, practice some game skills, and raise your standards a little when it comes to the hotness of women you’re approaching. As soon as you score with a hot girl, you’ll suddenly realize that you were never ugly. It was all in your head.

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142 Comments on “Most Men Self-Identify As Uglier Than They Actually Are

  1. If a guy can afford it and it’s causing him anxiety, there’s nothing wrong to get cosmetic surgery within reason, for having: a big nose that can be a turn off to most women, very big ears (unless you have long hair that covers them up) and/or bad teeth, but not vainer stuff like a facelift, or liposuction.
     
    Instead of lipo, to stay in shape, don’t be a lazy fat fuck and start regularly working out. If you have a overly hairy chest, hairy back, hairy ears and/or a hairy nose, you can now get laser treatment for all of those. 

    I haven’t had botox, but as I’m over 40, I probably will, but only as a one off, as I want to get professional pics taken.

    If you live in a Western country and say cosmetic surgery/cosmetic dentistry are way too expensive, it definitely is, but go to an Asian country like Thailand, India, or Philippines, where it’s so much cheaper, as that’s what I did for cosmetic dentistry.
     
    Asian cosmetic surgeons and cosmetic dentists are just as professionally qualified as any Western ones are, but don’t charge as much.
     

  2. 1. I heard that Good-Looking guys do have trouble getting women somehow. what do they do wrong?

    2. What do you think about FACEandLMS? (youtube channel)?

    thx

  3. FACEandLMS is based as fu**.

    BlackDragon would never admit it though, since majority of his readers would vanish if they understood the reality that if you are:

    1) Short (under 5’10”) [unless ultra handsome]

     

    2) Ugly

    3) Ethnic

     

    You will have a REALLLLLY hard time dating. I mean REALLY hard time getting hot white girls

     

    This is the reality. Plenty of researches online confirm that looks trumps pretty much everything. A handsome face can make a difference in getting laid once in 100 approaches or once in 10. It is day and night. Those who have looksmaxxxed and achieved at least Chadlite status will confirm the insane change in how women treat you.

     

    Muscles and having a six pack are mandatory if you want to be a top tier male.

     

    Do whatever you can to increase your height. It is insanely important. If you need leg lengthening to get over 6 feet – just do it. Don’t be a pussy. Whatever it takes to max out your stats.

    Once you have the base down (looks) focus on money and status and game as blackdragon teaches, but without looks you will never get proper hot women only low tier bitches.

  4. Noticed height was not included on the list of ugly traits.

     

    Would being 5’2” be considered ugly- or at least have the same effect as being ugly?

  5. What do you guys think, if several people in your life told you that you are very attractive and/or handsome, like the girls you date, their friend, etc, would you trust them? And if so, in what way would you monetize it?

  6. I guess the main reason is women are taught how to be beautiful while men are not. In most societies it’s not customary for men to actively seek improvement of their appearance, discussing that with peers etc.

  7. The only factors that are One Hundred Percent beyond your Control is your Height and Ethnicity. 

    Much of the letting yourself go is owed to Depression, much like Caleb was describing being married for a single guy. I know, I’ve been there in fact I’ve wasted a majority of my 20’s in Depression.

    It’s all on us really.

  8. But height is in your control. At least as an illusion.  As a 5’11” guy, I have some shoes that give me a 1.5-2.5″ boost.  It makes a difference in the initial attraction phase and every man under 6′ should have at least one pair.

  9. In most societies it’s not customary for men to actively seek improvement of their appearance, discussing that with peers etc.

    A few cool female friends and maybe a gay male or two can provide invaluable assistance and input. I remember the general hilarity and mirth that I had to put up with when I got a social group consisting of such individuals to provide advice after my divorce, including a few escorted clothes shopping trips and a visit to the hair salon. They all seemed to enjoy the extreme makeover project immensely, much more than I did. But it was generally agreed that there was a significant improvement, albeit building from a very degraded base. And you don’t have to buy into the full metro sexual trip to benefit from the many magazines and websites on skin care and stuff.

  10. Next thing, a guy will say I’m so poor as a student/mid 20s guy working 9-5 as McD delivery there’s no way i could attract any girls!

    These complaints are weasels, only women have the rights to complain.

    You’re not designed to bitch, because you’re not a bitch.

  11. For fat guys, I want you to read this.  You will need to lose weight, but even still, you will be successful if you follow the teachings of BD.  I was 415 lbs 5 years ago.  I am still 40 lbs too heavy, but I added two new women to my roster this weekend.  I even had a hickey left over from the first night, and still got women who clearly saw it and commented on it, in bed with me the next night.

    Confidence is sexy.  Be sexy.

  12. In regards to the comments on height, yes it is a factor to some degree.  Now if you’re 5’2″ as Mike asked about, then yes you’ll struggle since that is shorter than most women and they do have that old biological tick about wanting a man to be bigger than they are.

    I’m 5’9″ which is not tall by any stretch and I have no issues getting attractive women.  Have  some women turned me down due to not being 6′?  Yes of course but every woman has some thing they won’t go for such as height, race, hair, etc…

  13. I’m fortunately handsome tall and have an ok physique from years of regular exercise combined with heavy drinking, but what most average looking guys dont get is that being handsome is not gonna get you any girls without game and the right energy level. And that being average looking will not keep you from getting any girl if you have game and the right energy level. Yeah I can probably makeout with more girls than the average guy in the middle of a loud and crowded nightclub, but in normal situations my looks will only get me a couple extra seconds of attention. I say that to my average looking friends all the time: “Learn game. Inner game. Dont care about looks  just be confident (inner game is basically turning yourself into a confident person). And you will have just as much success as me or even more.”

    And thats especially true if you do day game or online game.

    Appearence isnt anything more than a distraction to women, they will be curious for a couple seconds but if you dont have game they lose interest immediatly, I’ve been there

  14. Typo

    Fixed.

    I heard that Good-Looking guys do have trouble getting women somehow. what do they do wrong?

    Act like betas.

    Really good-looking guys often don’t have to try very hard so they never have to learn game skill, confidence, outcome independence, etc that us average-looking or chubby dudes have to eventually learn.

    People don’t realize that there are a huge amount of really good-looking men who are beta males to the extreme and have a decent amount of trouble getting laid. (Again, the “SMV is everything!!!” guys are wrong.)

    What do you think about FACEandLMS?

    Never heard of it.

    BlackDragon would never admit it though, since majority of his readers would vanish if they understood the reality that if you are:

    1) Short (under 5’10”) [unless ultra handsome]

    2) Ugly

    3) Ethnic

    You will have a REALLLLLY hard time dating. I mean REALLY hard time getting hot white girls

    When did I ever say this was not true?

    I hereby admit it. Okay, now let see of the “majority of my readers” are going to vanish…

    Noticed height was not included on the list of ugly traits.

    Correct. Lack of height makes you less desirable, but it doesn’t make you ugly. Example: Peter Dinklage is good-looking. He’s just not as desirable as he would be if he was 6’0″.

    The only factors that are One Hundred Percent beyond your Control is your Height and Ethnicity.

    Incorrect. Height problems can be alleviated by elevator shoes, shoe lifts, boots, and so on.

    For fat guys, I want you to read this.  You will need to lose weight, but even still, you will be successful if you follow the teachings of BD.  I was 415 lbs 5 years ago.  I am still 40 lbs too heavy, but I added two new women to my roster this weekend.  I even had a hickey left over from the first night, and still got women who clearly saw it and commented on it, in bed with me the next night.

    I once coached with a fat guy who was 300 pounds. I told him to lose weight, and he was trying, but at the same time, he had two MLTRs on rotation that he got via online dating at Christianmingle.com. They were not ugly; they were cute (I would fuck them).

    No excuses, assholes.

  15.  
    Women feel this way too.  Women may be even harder on themselves than guys.  Maybe this should level the playing field a little?  Like we all think we look worse than we really do?
     
    It is weird how sometimes there’ll be some really hot girl and she’ll be complaining how she thinks her boobs aren’t big enough and how she thinks she doesn’t look good.  It’s like, umm,….ok.

  16. he had two MLTRs on rotation that he got via online dating at Christianmingle.com.

    Okay that sentence is hilarious.

    I just recently went to the nicest mall I could, went to a trendy mens clothing store, found this hot maybe 20 year old blonde working there, and asked her to pick out nice outfits for me to wear to go out.  She did excellent.  I spent $500 on basically 3 outfits.  This is the only thing I did besides also keeping a “stubble beard” and I’m not even having to hit on women at night game anymore.  They come up to me.  I had one dancing all over a guy, look at me and say “Damn he’s hot” and I walked over and took her away from the guy.

    Point is, I had no idea how the combination of trendy, well-fitting, stylish clothing, and a short beard, could make me so much more desirable.  I had women come up and start rubbing my cock right in the club, and friends cockblocking each other over me.  And like I said earlier, I still have 40 lbs to lose.

    Just weeks earlier I couldn’t get much attention out at the clubs and just changing to more trendy clothing pretty much made all the difference.  Spend the $$ it’s worth it.

  17. This one’s rough.

    I have a test on photofeeler right now…..just me standing by my wall map with a cup of coffee, showing top 10% in intelligence, top 20% in trustworthy, and sitting at 75% (so top 25%) in attractiveness….and that’s comparing my 45 y/o self to 30 y/o men.

    Of course, this is not my only data.

    And yet…..I don’t self-identify as ugly, but I’m surely still selling myself short. Of course, part of the explanation is my recent time under the barbell….I’m not used to being even remotely muscular…..all kinds of stupid self doubts creep in, but I know it’s all bullshit. Women are treating me differently…..it almost feels awkward….until one comes over to my apartment and simply can’t keep her hands off me.

    And still I wonder and am filled with doubt……ah, the joys of the human mind!

  18. Biggest problem  we have is thirst, and man raising up 4s and HB 5s like they are 9 or 10s.

    Yes, most men downgrade themselves while automatically upgrading women who are nowhere near the rankings afforded them.Average girls are seen as model-types. Men reek of desperation.

  19. “Would being 5’2” be considered ugly- or at least have the same effect as being ugly?”

    Mike, I’m sorry, but…I know this will sound, but with 5’2” it is pretty much a DEATH SENTENCE in dating. I’m not even kidding. Maybe if you are extremely handsome and go to some short statured Asian country and also get leg lengthening to increase height to at least 5’5”MAYBE, MAYBE just MAYBE you can get a used up 35+ year old relatively non-disfigured looking Asian women to use you for beta bucks MAYBE. I’m not even kidding. If you are 5’2” it never even began for you, sorry.  I know it is harsh, but it is the truth.

    If I was 5’2” I’d just do fetish porn clips and get laid that way. You would get sex + money, think about it. There is plenty of fucked out niche porn out there.

    5’2” is way worse than being ugly. If you are ugly you can get surgery or become a rapper or some shit or do some “ugly macho guy game” by getting fit and ripped or something like that. With 5’2” there is just no way.

  20. If you don’t believe looks are pretty much the most important thing then check these videos:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/FACEandLMS/videos

     

    It is FACEandLMS we talked about higher up. It might be extremely hard to handle as the black pill is real. There are plenty of examples and studies proving how important height and facial symmetry are and also ethnicity. For example, Asian men have an insanely hard time dating in the west. They pretty much have to jump on steroids, train like crazy, be tall, have deep voices and be otherwise perfect just to compete with regular white guys. It is brutal, absolutely brutal, but we come here for truth not to live in sunshine jelly bean fairy tale land, do we now?

     

    BlackDragon, check those videos, some good stuff there.

    Maybe you can write an article summarising how one can improve their looks.

     

     

    Don’t forget to mention some little known tactics like training neck to be of much thicker size (overtraining neck compared to body), because that actually makes your whole head and face look wider and way more masculine and dimorphic. There are also other more intricate nuances like proper posture, mewing, avoidance of mouthbreathing (which develops bad facial jaw profile alignment and bite problems), eating of hard foods as a developing teen and child, avoiding neck forward posture, etc…there is lots of obscure, non-mainstream stuff that can legitimately make someone go up in totem pole dramatically. I think also worth mentioning melanotan II for those unfortunate pale ginger boys and generally pale guys (paleness is a turn off in men, tall, DARK and handsome), then we have leg lengthening to be over 6 feet (women often have this as a check mark, magic number that guy must meet), then we have eyebrow tinting, eyelash growing, hair transplants and finasteride, jaw training, moisturising for youthful skin, forearm training (yes, muscular forearms are more important than big biceps, same as thick neck is more important than big pecs).

     

    I mean, there is lots of stuff one can do to max out, but it is hard, requires lots of effort, is risky and in some cases still won’t help. For example, if you are a midget or 5’2” or have some severe hyperplasia or some condition then it’s OVER, I’m sorry, invest your time in going on DMT trips and achieving wholeness with universe and losing ego or just pay for sex.

  21. I’m afraid the incels have arrived, BD.

    Bobby is most likely the Lookism.net forum moderator known as “RealRob” a 29 year old, steroid juicing Swedish college student. Everyone and I do mean everyone who frequents that weird and twisted place has some form of crazy.

    That’s all I’m gonna say here.

  22. forearm training

    Yes, this is good.

    the black pill is real

    I’m interested in seeing how BD deals with this. I mean…..honestly, he casts a pretty wide net, but at the end of the day, the Alpha 2.0 lifestyle is probably not one that is open to every man. I guess Quasimodo could be Alpha 2.0…..but at the end of the day, I think BD’s audience is mostly those who at least have a chance.

    Honestly, and admittedly self servingly, I think the core group of BD’s audience is guys like me….smart, good looking, and lots of experience being TMM‘d, but plowhorses in relationships in the past. Of course he’d rather catch them younger so they don’t make the same mistakes.

    I think the group BD can help the most is guys whose primary problem is tripping over their own dicks over OBW & SP rather than straight up losers.

    Edit:

    I’m afraid the incels have arrived, BD.

    Say it isn’t so. I might not be spinning 15 plates, but this is no place for men who can’t get laid at all.

  23. @BD

     

    my testosterone dropped like a stone

    What was the lowest total and/or free testosterone levels you ever had in your blood test results.

     

     

    I stopped dressing nice, stopped paying attention to my physical appearance, gained weight

    How much did you weight maximum in total when you were the heaviest?

    When you say that later you had success when you were 50lbs overweight, how much weight was that in total? Have you ever done some dexa scan or some other body composition test, if so how much fat % did you have for what total weight?

     

    Did you do resistance training or other type of physical exercise suceptible to build muscle at any point before you were married? Did you while you were married? If not at what age did you start and/or resume such physical activity suceptible to build muscle mass?

     

     

     

    3. You are physically deformed.

    Personally I find women with Mafran syndrome ugly. Is a man with Mafran syndrome ugly according to your criteria? (examples in link).

     

    I also find down and turner (mososomy X – untreated) syndrome women ugly, so same question for full and mosaic variants of:

    Klinefelter syndrome/trisomy XXY. Untreated.

    Down syndrome/trisomy 21.

  24. I’m afraid the incels have arrived, BD.
    Bobby is most likely the Lookism.net forum moderator known as “RealRob” a 29 year old, steroid juicing Swedish college student. Everyone and I do mean everyone who frequents that weird and twisted place has some form of crazy.

    I’m not that guy, but I’m not far from your description. I’m not incel. I have gotten laid. And I’m currently having an active BDSM sex life. The chick I’m fucking is hot. But it took me lot of effort to get there and lot of approaches and it would have been much easier if my face would’ve been better. If I had a better face I’d get laid in one in 10 girls I approach, not one in 200.

  25. most men downgrade themselves while automatically upgrading women who are nowhere near the rankings afforded them.Average girls are seen as model-types. Men reek of desperation.

    Yup.

    Maybe you can write an article summarising how one can improve their looks.

    I have extremely detailed, step-by-step chapters about exactly that in The Unchained Man and Get To Sex Fast.

    I’m afraid the incels have arrived, BD.

    They always do.

    (And I disagree with the entire term “incel” since very few men are “involuntarily” celibate. Most of these guys aren’t horribly disfigured or 4’11” or anything. They’re normal looking guys who are choosing to not put in the time and effort to improve their appearance, game, confidence, and outcome independence so they can get laid. Which is fine, but if you’re making a choice it isn’t “involuntary.” It’s quote voluntary.)

    I’m interested in seeing how BD deals with this. I mean…..honestly, he casts a pretty wide net, but at the end of the day, the Alpha 2.0 lifestyle is probably not one that is open to every man. I guess Quasimodo could be Alpha 2.0…..but at the end of the day, I think BD’s audience is mostly those who at least have a chance.

    Yeah, a horribly disfigured midget can’t be an Alpha 2.0. Duh. I’m not sure why this is such a shocking thing to say, or why someone would think I would never admit to such an obvious thing.

    For fuck’s sake, what percentage of the modern male population is under 5’2″ and disfigured? Does this even matter? Fucking stupid.

    <Blackdragon hits paste> Using a bizarre exception to the rule to make your point means you don’t have one, and proves mine.

    What was the lowest total and/or free testosterone levels you ever had in your blood test results.

    500 total, though I know it was lower than that a few years prior because I wasn’t exercising at all back then.

    How much did you weight maximum in total when you were the heaviest?

    Just shy of 250, if I remember correctly.

    Have you ever done some dexa scan or some other body composition test

    No. I was chubby and it was obvious. There was no need for a fucking dexa scan.

    Things like dexa scans are a waste of money for guys who are clearly overweight. Dude, you’re fat. Lose weight. Who fucking cares what your body fat percentage is at that point?

    Did you do resistance training or other type of physical exercise suceptible to build muscle at any point before you were married?

    At one brief point for about 18 months when I was about 31 or so(?). Other than that, never.

    Is a man with Mafran syndrome ugly according to your criteria? (examples in link).

    Technically yes since its a deformity, but not really. It looks like it’s just hands/feet which aren’t a big deal if the rest of you looks good.

  26. And that being average looking will not keep you from getting any girl if you have game and the right energy level.

    About energy level, I second to that. I am clearly a low energy skinny fat guy and if I live my day “normally” and then go on a date, my energy level is way too low and statistically I screw up more dates than if I purposefully sleep much longer than normal (12hours) or wake up much later than normal so that my energy level is significantly higher in the early evening when I go on the date. It’s only a trick but it works wonder. The key to this trick is not only your objective energy level at the moment of the date, but your energy level in comparison to hers. It should appear significantly higher, but not too much hogher either, and moreover it’s better if yoi have plenty more energy “in the tank” so that you are very alert and aware of everything going on during the date and able to read all her nonverbal signs, kino smoothly, etc… in one word: be in full awareness and control of the date.

    I am also trying all I can to have more energy from the ground up, nutrition, physical activity, medical check ups, etc… But so far I haven’t come arround a full solution to this problem. Meanwhile, I am using this trick.

  27. (And I disagree with the entire term “incel” since very few men are “involuntarily” celibate. Most of these guys aren’t horribly disfigured or 4’11” or anything. They’re normal looking guys who are choosingto not put in the time and effort to improve their appearance, game, confidence, and outcome independence so they can get laid. Which is fine, but if you’re making achoiceit isn’t “involuntary.” It’s quote voluntary.)

     

    Incels have their own meme going on that anyone who doesn’t put in effort to switch continents, travel to Asia and get a 2/10 disfigured single mother of 5 with a skin condition is “voluntarily celibate” aka VOLCEL. So what you are describing are volcels. And it is really true, because you can’t claim you are “celibate” if you are not castrated, have functioning sex organs and haven’t tried everything even changing continents, settling for bottom of barrel contents or pretty much transforming yourself via whatever methods necessary to get at least one woman in your life. Once you lose your virginity you cannot be an incel anymore.

    I’m not an incel. I get laid once in every 100 women I approach. I approach only women I find attractive. But what pisses me off is that Chad probably puts in 10% of that effort and gets the same results. It’s just lots of WASTED TIME only because my parents allowed me to mouthbreathe as a kid and never cared about my jaw alignment and now I have this fucking long, retarded face that naturally is not as sexy as a wide, proportional alpha Chad face. And no, muscles don’t compensate that. Actually some girls are even annoyed by non-hot guys trying  to fraud it by “working out”. Face tells the whole story: your genes, your immunity, your hormonal development, any sicknesses…it is all written in the face, like a map. And your brain judges all that cumulative value within 1/3rd of a second.

     

    Height and frame is also important. And I mean physical frame as in body.

     

    And after you have these maxxed out (assuming you aren’t getting laid) only then it is worth talking about game, lifestyle, money, career, etc….

  28. Things like dexa scans are a waste of money for guys who are clearly overweight. Dude, you’re fat. Lose weight. Who fucking cares what your body fat percentage is at that point?

    Tim Ferriss in “the 4h body” has a different opinion: briefly his idea is to take a very clear and precise measurement with the dexa scan which then provides motivation to diet and exercise, and after a given time of your choice, perform again a dexa scan to measure clearly the evolution. And so on, repeat. You can also interpolate your results with the dexa scan with other results such as calipers or impedance weight scale.

     

    For the price it’s less than 40usd in Manila for instance – I am sure, I paid – and in France I did osteodensitometry, wich is another test done with with a dexa scan, same machine, and the person performing the test told me it’s 30eur and same price for the full body composition, but I am not sure this information since I didn’t have the fullbody composition with them in France. However I know that in Manila the osteodensiotometry was a bit more expensive than the full body composition, which makes sense since the operator must make multiple smaller more detailed scans for the osteodensitometry, which takes a little bit longer to perform. Long story short, it’s not a huge waste of money if you do it every couple of years.

  29. what pisses me off is that Chad probably puts in 10% of that effort and gets the same results

    Not only is that not true, but it shouldn’t piss you off – that shouldn’t be any part of your thought process at all.

    Your entire attitude sucks and it’s your fault. Not Chad’s, and not your parents. Read this:

    Everything In Your Life Is Your Fault

    Tim Ferriss in “the 4h body” has a different opinion: briefly his idea is to take a very clear and precise measurement with the dexa scan which then provides motivation to diet and exercise, and after a given time of your choice, perform again a dexa scan to measure clearly the evolution. And so on, repeat.

    That’s a very stupid opinion. I can do exactly the same thing with a device called a “scale.”

    I like Tim but his content lately has been pretty lame.

  30. Yeah, a horribly disfigured midget can’t be an Alpha 2.0. Duh. I’m not sure why this is such a shocking thing to say, or why someone would think I would never admit to such an obvious thing.

    I don’t disagree, man, and I second your points about incels. Again, you’re writing for yourself (to make money) and for those of us who could benefit from what you write (unlike Quasimodo).

    So part of this posts point is, again, for guys like me to “get over” self limiting beliefs….and there’s a whole world attached to those beliefs. I know for a fact that I’ve been self-identifying as uglier than I am for my whole life. I mean, I had a smokeshow half my age on my arm from 39 to 44. But still, I am somewhat blinded.

    Let’s say, for the sake of argument, I’m perfectly over it as of right now, and have a solid read on my looks. Do you see what a rich set of excuses I’d be letting go of at the very same time? Hell, that might even be part of your point. That said, I take full responsibility for not seeing things correctly.

  31. Technically yes since its a deformity, but not really. It looks like it’s just hands/feet which aren’t a big deal if the rest of you looks good.

    In  my opinion, there is clear deformity of the head/face even if it’s symedtrical. Low muscle mass. Long arms and legs, clearly deformed rib cage.

    Moreover most adult will need surgery on the aorta requiring open rib cage which leaves a huge scar from the bottom of the neck to the sternum. Possibly replacement of the heart valves with mechanical valves, which as a result makes the heart sound like a distinct “tic tic tic”…

     

    What about down syndrome and Klinefelter syndrome?

     

    I am asking these odd questions to see clearly where to draw the line in term of such qualitative considerations.

  32. To be clear down syndrome is also challenged in term of IQ to run proper game, but I am talking about the physical only not the intellect. For me down syndrome type of face is clearly ugly. Gang would not Bang.

     

    For Klinefelter I am talking about untreated, because if diagnosed in childhood and treated with TRT early I believe differences are very  difficult to notice. However for untrated full XXY caryotype… I kinda wanna say it’s on the border of ugly depending on the case. But it’s sort of unclear thus my question. I would personally tend to draw the line here. For a mosaic of XY and XXY smptoms are milder, masculinity is a notch higher thus I would tend to say clearly disadventaged but not ugly.

  33. Not only is that not true, but it shouldn’t piss you off – that shouldn’t be any part of your thought process at all.
    Your entire attitude sucks and it’s your fault. Not Chad’s, and not your parents. Read this:

    I know everything is my fault. I have read that and I agree. However you cannot change facial bone structure even with surgeries, some things like facial planes and maxillary deficiencies play a HUGE and PARAMOUNT role in attraction of opposite sex (google how men with wider faces are more attractive), no surgeon will just do it even if you pay them a huge amount and it will end up looking shit anyway.

     

    The fact is, CHAD was born or developed with proper bone structure and has a face that is MORE DIMORPHIC and therefore if he needs to swipe 10 times on Tinder to get to 1 Stacy, I would need to probably swipe 500 times to get to the same Stacy or a lower tier and that applies to REAL LIFE as well. Because I’m not even using Tinder or online dating AT ALL.

    Ok, I have about 500+ approaches under my belt FROM REAL LIFE (day game).

    I am:
    – tall (over 6ft)

    – fit, ripped (on gear)

    – and rich (for my location, but 7 figures).

    I get laid with maybe one girl in 50 or in 100 I approach and that is only recently when I improved my vocal tonality, way of speaking and skin tone.

     

    So before that I got laid with one girl in 300 that I approached (no online game, only day game). I speak to every woman I find attractive, anywhere, even if other people hear it, sometimes even if they are with bfs, I don’t give a shit. I have nothing to lose.

     

    So…even with inhibitions lowered to minimum, even with jacked body at 6 feet, clear tan skin, nice haircut and clothes and maxxed out vocal tonality and mannerisms and some comsetic procedures on my face…my lay count is still 3!

    Yes, two of women were quite above average and sex was very, very good and yes, I have rejected at least 3 or 4 women that found me attractive, but I didn’t find them hot, but…that still doesn’t change the fact that these numbers with these stats are ABYSMAL and Chad would have WAY BETTER NUMBERS.

    ONLY THREE LAYS…After 500+ APPROACHES! U WOT M8

    Please don’t try to hamster away this important fact that a guy who is equivalent of me, but has proper facial development and has better maxillary proportions and positive canthal tilt will have WAY higher success rate and will end up WASTING WAY LESS TIME to get to Stacies pussy. You can’t tell this isn’t so.

    Also, I never said anything about whose FAULT it is.
    I never blame the world, I just STATE FACTS!

    You will say: “Well, it is your fault you didn’t improve your face”.

    Listen, buddy, you can’t improve negative canthal tilt. No surgeon will perform Le Fort III on a non-syndromic patient. They won’t. And if they will by you bribing them, you will most likely end up brain damaged.

    If a guy is born and raised and ends up 5’2” even when sleeping proper, drinking milk, etc…it is NOT HIS FAULT. It is nobodies FAULT. It just is SHIT LUCK. So even if he maxxxes out his height by fraud shoes 2″ and 2″ leg lengthening (femurs and tibia), he gets 5’6” and ends up looking like a long legged manlet freak. Tell me again how it is his fault for looking this way.

    You can change a lot, you can become a rapper celebrity or a drug cartel baron or a billionaire, but you cannot become more handsome in your face if you have underlying bone issue problem or underlying skeletal discrepancy.

  34.  Chad

    Stacies

    Really? Are we seriously going to start using the terminology of psychopathic murderers on this blog?

     

  35. Really? Are we seriously going to start using the terminology of psychopathic murderers on this blog?

     

    Where is your argument? I only see an ad hominem.

    Go address the points I expressed instead of clinging to terminology used.

  36. @BD

     

    So in term of resistance training you did nothing, then 18months when you were 31st and then you resumed resistance training after your divorce, meaning arround 37 years old. Since then regularly. Correct?

  37. I only see an ad hominem.

    The terms you used were invented by a group of losers who breed psychopathic murderers. This is just a fact. I simply think that we shouldn’t stoop to their level by using their cult language.

    Just an observation. Carry on.

  38. The terms you used were invented by a group of losers who breed psychopathic murderers. This is just a fact. I simply think that we shouldn’t stoop to their level by using their cult language.

    Agreed.

  39. The terms you used were invented by a group of losers who breed psychopathic murderers. This is just a fact. I simply think that we shouldn’t stoop to their level by using their cult language.
    Just an observation. Carry on.

    You sound angry, who hurt you?

    It doesn’t matter who invented what. Even if Hitler invented the term it does not matter. Facts matter. And I gave you measurable facts, in numbers. But you conveniently glance over them and attach to something insignificant. You are literally using ad hominems which is one of the lowest form of discussion: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

    Please educate yourself how to discuss properly without things such as anger bias, female like reactionary posts just calling men who express what you don’t like “losers” and ad hominems which you should have learned don’t work in discussions at about grade 5.

    Incels don’t breed psychopathic murders. Society ostracising men (yes men, woman can get a man even if she has down syndrome as proved in recent events) with obvious genetical defects breed psychopathic murders. And if you had any shred of empathy you would see why they become so frustrated. When you are a 5’3” turbomanlet with a micropenis and a gay mouth like Elliot Rodger and frame so weak no amount of growth hormone or steroids could fix and JoJo’s bizarre adventure mannerisms and expressions, who clearly would never be favoured by any sane female of opposite sex in USA and who also lacks IQ necessary to realise these realities of life and maybe seek salvation in some farmer’s village in rural China among his own kind or via method of overdosing on DMT for ego death and spiritual freedom…what else was he to do? Anyone in his shoes, with his neurological wiring, upbringing and external factors would have done exactly the same. I totally understand his hate and I thank god every day I am not born a hapa manlet from a self-hating Asian mother and white father who never managed to go past weak framed beta boy turbomanlet stage and ended up as an undeveloped, socially stunted kid among herds of wild frathouse harpies and lumberjack Chads. It never even began for him.

    So calling someone just names and not learning to discuss like proper adults is just immature and weak frankly.

    Sad.

  40. BD, a while ago OK Cupid had a post up where they showed a 80%/20% distribution for male attractiveness. It has been taken down but it’s archived somewhere….I have a copy. I have validated the same basic thing on Photofeeler, where they would report that I’m top 20%, but using the raw numbers and the assumption of a normal distribution, I was hardly over 50%….i.e., with a 60% raw score I was actually over 90% in some cases!

    What are your thoughts on this? The Pareto Distribution where if you’re not in the top 20%, you’re below average.

  41. I only see an ad hominem.

    The terms you used were invented by a group of losers who breed psychopathic murderers. This is just a fact. I simply think that we shouldn’t stoop to their level by using their cult language.

    LMAO. And Jack is so bad at basic debate logic that he hides behind the accusation of “elitism” when he gets called out for a well-known logical fallacy. Mwahaha. Carry on JOTB. Anti-intellectualism ftw. Ha. Haha.

  42. Plenty of talk about how it’s not possible (not difficult, but IMPOSSIBLE) to have sex with hot and sexy-as-fuck girls unless you’re a, b or c. Sounds like these cats gotta put in more numbers to me!

    I’m not that interested in going down the SMV/biology rabbit hole and I don’t give a single shit how scientifically sound it is. Why? Because when I believed in that shit before, I’d be self-conscious on dates about how I don’t measure up! Even now if I read or watch it, I start believing, internally, that hot girls are hard to fuck! However, when I don’t pay any attention to it and roll my eyes at it, I constantly surprise myself at my results. Well guess which mindset I prefer, then. To adapt the popular phrase: would you rather be right, or lay hot girls?

    Aside, I bet a horribly disfigured midget could at least be alpha 2.0 in the business side.

  43. But what pisses me off is that Chad probably puts in 10% of that effort and gets the same results. It’s just lots of WASTED TIME

    What passes ME off is that I didn’t inherit a multi million dollar trust fund and actually have to work for a living. Life is such a fucking bitch.

  44. I know everything is my fault. I have read that and I agree. However you cannot change facial bone structure even with surgeries

    I wasn’t talking about your face and you know it. I was referring to your attitude, which is 100% your fault. You’re banging hot chicks and making tons of money yet you’re still wasting huge amounts of your mental and emotional energy being angry about better looking men. Stupid.

    Your attitude is one of the worst I’ve ever seen on this blog and it’s all your fault. You could change it if you really wanted to.

    (I realize you probably want to be upset about this, which is why this comment is more directed to the readers than you. Folks please, for the love of god, don’t go through like with an angry, jaded, negative attitude like Bobby. Life is too short.)

    So in term of resistance training you did nothing, then 18months when you were 31st and then you resumed resistance training after your divorce, meaning arround 37 years old. Since then regularly. Correct?

    More like 39 years old, if I remember correctly.

    I don’t disagree, man, and I second your points about incels. Again, you’re writing for yourself (to make money) and for those of us who could benefit from what you write (unlike Quasimodo).

    I wasn’t directing that comment at you, but at negative thinkers like Bobby and Boss above.

    BD, a while ago OK Cupid had a post up where they showed a 80%/20% distribution for male attractiveness. It has been taken down but it’s archived somewhere….I have a copy. I have validated the same basic thing on Photofeeler, where they would report that I’m top 20%, but using the raw numbers and the assumption of a normal distribution, I was hardly over 50%….i.e., with a 60% raw score I was actually over 90% in some cases!

    What are your thoughts on this? The Pareto Distribution where if you’re not in the top 20%, you’re below average.

    It’s all horseshit and I wouldn’t pay any attention to that crap. It reminds me of those surveys where more than 50% of women think they’re “above average” in attractiveness.

    Aside, I bet a horribly disfigured midget could at least be alpha 2.0 in the business side.

    Correct.

  45. Short is not hopeless.  Google Bernie Ecclestone(87), and his tall hot women and tall hot daughters.  Rich or poor is a more critical issue, but that’s something you can improve.

  46. I’ve been there in fact I’ve wasted a majority of my 20’s in Depression.

    Hear hear. Was suicidal too. Couldn’t even hold a job. I would have fit right in with all these incels back then, but they only really began to mobilize during the back half of my 20s and I was still not nearly as psychotic as they. JOTB had some choice words for them, and he’s 100% correct. And BD is 100% correct about them wanting to be mad about things because it gives them a rise. Hell, I was like that back in the day as well.

  47. Maybe if you are extremely handsome and go to some short statured Asian country and also get leg lengthening to increase height 

    WTF is leg lengthening?  Some kind of surgical procedure?

     

  48. @Blackdragon, I think the “ugly” has to do with the sexual market also but in a different idea speaking.

    1.) Too Many men to woman ratio since we hadn’t had a major war draft since Vietnam. Male populations have always been lower than woman do to war so a ratio of 1:3 of men:woman

    2.) The emergence of the smart phone  with dating apps combined gave  woman outcome independence mentality in there thumbs.

    3.) modern far left with new feminism like you said.

    Combine these three factors you get a new biological and social paradigm that never occurred in 100,000 years of mankind.

    Whats your take on this?

     

     

  49. And if you had any shred of empathy you would see why they become so frustrated.

    I’m saving all my shreds of empathy for the next woman they slaughter!

    Heartless, huh?

     

     

  50. I know a guy who is about 5’2” and he gets lots of women.  He is good looking and very muscular.  Despite being shorter than most women, they still open him.

  51. I have validated the same basic thing on Photofeeler, where they would report that I’m top 20%, but using the raw numbers and the assumption of a normal distribution, I was hardly over 50%….i.e., with a 60% raw score I was actually over 90% in some cases!

     

    There is a bias as most pictures people send look like shit. I have tried to submit lots of pictures of myself, without being selective, only the last ones in my phone, my worse one was rated 1% (ouch) and my best one 81%. Yes, depending on the picture I use, I am consider as low as a 1/10 and as high as an 8. I’m somewhere between the ugliest man on Earth and an attractive guy. So you can hardly have an opinion of how attractive you are with this tool, only how good a given picture compares to each other.

    Btw, you are not ranked among all men in the base, only men your age. So, if you’re 45, you are only ranked relatively to other 45 y/o men.

  52. I wasn’t talking about your face and you know it. I was referring to your attitude, which is 100% your fault. You’re banging hot chicks and making tons of money yet you’re still wasting huge amounts of your mental and emotional energy being angry about better looking men. Stupid.
    Your attitude is one of the worst I’ve ever seen on this blog and it’s all your fault. You could change it if you really wanted to.

    You know what, BlackDragon. Instead of arguing further like you probably expect, I will say that yes – YOU ARE RIGHT. For my situation in life I have spent too much time on negativity and complaining. The only thing that sometimes pisses me off about this is that:

    1) I have to spend so much time on approaches that lead nowhere

    2) I don’t really know which aspects of my approaches or lifestyle or looks or whatever I could improve to get better results.

    So maybe I’m banging my head against the wall and expect a different result, but keep doing it, because one in 50 or 100 times I get “lucky”. It is very exhausting to say the least.

     

    WTF is leg lengthening?  Some kind of surgical procedure?

    Yes, the only solution for “kings of manlets” who would be average or above average heights with added 2 or 3 inches. Google it. And google “limb lengthening forum” to make sure you go to a legit doc not butcher.

     

    I know a guy who is about 5’2” and he gets lots of women.  He is good looking and very muscular.  Despite being shorter than most women, they still open him.

    Please don’t lie. This is a meme comment I see everywhere. “Hurr, I know an ugly disfigured 4 feet quasimodo who slays models”. No, you don’t. Ok? Maybe he is their dancing monkey and you mistake that for attraction. Cut it out.

    some absolute C U N T S on this thread

    Ad hominem.

  53. I highly recommend all men consider various “easy” ways to improve their appearance. I was lucky enough to be born fairly good looking, but was very thin and looked younger than my age. I noticed a huge jump in success after adding muscle, cutting my hair to better fit my skull shape, growing a beard, and getting cosmetic alterations to my teeth (previously I had a small gap).

  54. Check out Dr. Sean Stephenson on Entrepreneurs in Cars YouTube cast.  The guy is 3ft tall with bone disease since birth and he managed to marry a hot wife.  If you are in worse shape than that guy, then you can have your excuses.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vYd0FUoUl0

    Can someone tell me how to answer others’ comments?  How to format like BD with others’ comments and his answers below?  Thanks, I’m new here.

     

  55. Yeah, well. In my twenties, I had a ridiculously pretty, feminine face. I compensated by riding motorbikes, which gave me excuse to wear a leather jacket and to walk around covered with grease to soften the effect a bit. That would look silly at my age now, so these days I wear a stylish little Van Dyke beard. Hair on the face is a good strategic move to boost the masculinity quotient a few notches.

  56. The only thing that sometimes pisses me off about this is that:

    1) I have to spend so much time on approaches that lead nowhere

    2) I don’t really know which aspects of my approaches or lifestyle or looks or whatever I could improve to get better results.

    So maybe I’m banging my head against the wall and expect a different result, but keep doing it, because one in 50 or 100 times I get “lucky”. It is very exhausting to say the least.

     
    Bobby, you’re in a position where (according to you) you earn good money, are in great shape and get sex, but yet your complaining about how hard it is!? Be grateful that you have what you have and stop being negative over what you can’t control.
     
    Saying stuff like if you had a better face you’d get laid one in 10 and not one in 200 is pointless. Even the best daygamers don’t have 1 in 10 success ratios and just having what you consider a good looking face won’t get you laid, just a ‘foot in the door’, so you’d still have to build comfort, vibe and attraction etc.. 
     
    If you want to get better with your daygame then try getting a mate to record some of your approaches or if you can’t, record some audio on your smartphone and then see if you can them analysed by a day game coach who can probably point out areas where you can improve.
     
     
     
    Take steps to fix what you can, not what you can’t.
     

  57. Next thing, a guy will say I’m so poor as a student/mid 20s guy working 9-5 as McD delivery there’s no way i could attract any girls!

    These complaints are weasels, only women have the rights to complain.

    You’re not designed to bitch, because you’re not a bitch.

    Well said

     

  58. Next thing, a guy will say I’m so poor as a student/mid 20s guy working 9-5 as McD delivery there’s no way i could attract any girls! These complaints are weasels, only women have the rights to complain.
    You’re not designed to bitch, because you’re not a bitch.

    If BD had the ability to pin comments on his blog posts, I’d pin this. Like BD says, stop with the excuses, get to work, and do you. If you want it enough, you’ll do anything it takes to (legally) get what you want. Unless you’re disabled (and in some cases even IF you are disabled), nothing is stopping you.

  59. 1) I have to spend so much time on approaches that lead nowhere
    2) I don’t really know which aspects of my approaches or lifestyle or looks or whatever I could improve to get better results.

    To me is clear you have two problems (could be wrong though, I’m not a specialist):

    1) burnout syndrome from excess approaching;

    2) lack of some (not all, but some) conversational skills (and off course the right attitude);

    Are you using second gen talking? Sexual gambits? Sexual prizing? Day game is not easy to master, I know, but I agree your numbers are way off.

    “I have a great body, I’m good-looking and I have money! Why chicks are not throwing their pussy at me?”I used to be like that. Heavily outcome dependent if you stop and think about it.

    Who fucking cares if your face is not perfect? If you’re missing a toe? If your nose’s been broken? (mine has been twice and is still pointing sideways LOL).  Fuck, they need your cock to be hard and ready, not aspects of your body they won’t even look at when clothes are off.

    If I were you, I would drop that dumb line of though, stop mass approaching ASAP and read more current relevant game material before going in field again. Just my two cents.

     

     

  60. So maybe I’m banging my head against the wall and expect a different result, but keep doing it, because one in 50 or 100 times I get “lucky”. It is very exhausting to say the least.

    No your problem isnt luck or good looks. Your problem is OI and confidence. It clearly shows from your comments. Sonce you compare yourself with Chad he might be getting better numbers than you, but he will waste time until he fucks those women and he will be also terrible in relationship management which also leads to terrible time management(something you complain about).

    So instead of worrying about face symmetry, leg lengthening and penis enlargement work on your OI and confidence. Your numbers will get better.

  61.  

    5’2” is way worse than being ugly. If you are ugly you can get surgery or become a rapper or some shit or do some “ugly macho guy game” by getting fit and ripped or something like that. With 5’2” there is just no way.

     

    For example, if you are a midget or 5’2” or have some severe hyperplasia or some condition then it’s OVER, I’m sorry, invest your time in going on DMT trips and achieving wholeness with universe and losing ego or just pay for sex.

     
     Mike, don’t believe what some of the others said, (at least the parts about height that I copied from their comments above).  To say ‘there is just no way’ and ‘it’s over’, is extreme.  It’s true that the majority of women will probably only give the time of day to taller guys, but not every one.  I mean yah, 5’2” is short for a guy, so it’s obviously not the ideal height.  As long as a shorter guy is good looking and has a good body, that’s what matters…..oh, and is fun to be around (just my personal opinion). I like shorter guys because I’m 5’3” and I like it better when they are closer to my height…….and for anyone who tells me that I wouldn’t date a guy who is 5’2” because that’s shorter than I am, well I would, as long as he looks attractive to me, but I don’t think I could go any shorter than that……but there probably aren’t many guys shorter than 5’2” anyways……I don’t know!  It would just depend on how hot he was!

  62. 39! Wow I didn’t realize you started regular resistance training so late. It’s never too late! Thanks for clarifying that BD.

  63. So you can hardly have an opinion of how attractive you are with this tool, only how good a given picture compares to each other.

    Yes and no. It’s not the end all and be all, but it’s a good tool. I have to work pretty hard to have low rated pics, and I do, and it’s always something stupid….sunglasses, having a cup of coffee to my lips which obscures my face, up in the mountains with whipping winds, etc. That said, pure outcome bias can explain some of our difference of opinion here…all my “good” pics are rated above 80%.

    Btw, you are not ranked among all men in the base, only men your age. So, if you’re 45, you are only ranked relatively to other 45 y/o men.

    Nope, I compare against 30 y/o men as I want VYW….and my most recent test went over 80% on 25 reviews. My tests on women my age are through the roof, pushing to top 5%. Barbells are magic, but I have good genes.

    I highly recommend all men consider various “easy” ways to improve their appearance.

    Facepulls. Protect those rotator cuffs and improve posture all at once.

    All in all, I think this was an excellent post. It was a good reminder. I have developed solid body dysmorphia and I will continue to do so…within my next 4 lifts I’ll be squatting my body weight under the barbell…nothing to write home about but a really good start….

    Just by pure logic I should have a different self view. I had a smokeshow half my age on my arm for years, I regularly get top 20% results in Photofeeler, I catch women (and, strangely, teen/tween girls) looking at me all the time…..might as well accept it.

    I think one place I have sympathy with Incels is exactly at the intersection of a woman seeing you one way and you seeing yourself a different way. Yeah, they’d be jealous of my much higher ceiling, but it doesn’t matter if you don’t take advantage of it. I definitely have felt all the confusion talked about in the opening of this piece, rather than accepting one has one at least a small lottery by being good looking and proceeding accordingly.

    Edit:

    Wow I didn’t realize you started regular resistance training so late. It’s never too late!

    I got under a barbell at 45. It’s never too late. Heavy barbell training is the fountain of youth.

     

  64. Without disagreeing with BD, let me suggest that even ugly category 3 (deformed) need not be a total limitation.  My son has a severely deformed right arm.  It’s oddly shaped, much shorter than his left arm, and the hand is twisted and unusable.  Now, he is still a boy, but I can tell you that, because of his smile, confidence, and outgoing personality, the girls he runs around with practically fall over each other to get his attention.  He “owns” the arm, as in, ‘yeah, it’s different, so what?’  So the girls are aware of it, but they don’t seem to give a shit about it.

  65. @Blackdragon, I think the “ugly” has to do with the sexual market also but in a different idea speaking.

    1.) Too Many men to woman ratio since we hadn’t had a major war draft since Vietnam. Male populations have always been lower than woman do to war so a ratio of 1:3 of men:woman

    2.) The emergence of the smart phone  with dating apps combined gave  woman outcome independence mentality in there thumbs.

    3.) modern far left with new feminism like you said.

    Combine these three factors you get a new biological and social paradigm that never occurred in 100,000 years of mankind.

    Whats your take on this?

    I more or less agree. It’s a odd confluence of many factors. That’s why it doesn’t surprise me despite the sheer irrationality of it all.

    Can someone tell me how to answer others’ comments?  How to format like BD with others’ comments and his answers below?  Thanks, I’m new here.

    Copy and paste someone’s comment, then block it, then click the quotation mark button in the toolbar to quote it. Then type your response.

    39! Wow I didn’t realize you started regular resistance training so late. It’s never too late! Thanks for clarifying that BD.

    I know guys in their 60s who started resistance training and it made them look better. It really is never “too late.”

    Without disagreeing with BD, let me suggest that even ugly category 3 (deformed) need not be a total limitation.

    Correct.

    I saw Pink Firefly watching one of her reality TV shows; this one about plastic surgeons, and one patient was a young man who was deformed and had literally no ass. Not a small ass or flat ass, but no ass. It showed the guy naked from the rear and holy fuck, it was disgusting.

    As part of the assessment, the doctors asked him if he was sexually active, and they were shocked when he said yes. “Don’t women care about your deformity?” they asked. “Nope,” the guy said, shrugging. “Really?” they asked. He just said, “Yeah. Never really been a problem.”

    So the girls are aware of it, but they don’t seem to give a shit about it.

    Exactly.

    A recurring theme in my life over the last 11 years is that I have been consistency surprised at what women will put up with when it comes to sex.

  66. Are you using second gen talking? Sexual gambits? Sexual prizing? Day game is not easy to master, I know, but I agree your numbers are way off.

    I don’t know what those meme terms mean. Care to explain?

    I try to show that I might be romantically interested. I never compliment. I am rather direct.

     

     

    If I were you, I would drop that dumb line of though, stop mass approaching ASAP and read more current relevant game material before going in field again. Just my two cents.

    What material do you recommend?

  67. What about if you’re approaching hot women and hot women are not showing interest back but  but women that are okay and slightly below okay are showing interest back then that shows a indication that the guy is ugly  do you not agree ?

  68. Bobby, out of curiosity where do you live and how old are you?

    If you ever find yourself in Mexico City reply to me on here and I’ll show you around town. I’m a 6′ fit dude and the only issue with women here is scheduling dates around my other plans.

    Some of my white friends here do better than I do, but doesn’t bother me at all. We’re all pulling from day/night/online game 24/7

  69. What about if you’re approaching hot women and hot women are not showing interest back but  but women that are okay and slightly below okay are showing interest back then that shows a indication that the guy is ugly  do you not agree ?

     

    Not really. Due to hypergamy women expect to date up. So girls who are 7s won’t pay attention to a guy who is 7, but 5s and 6s will pay more attention to this guy. In similar fashion maybe you are 9, in that case girls who are 7 will pay more attention to you. Women want “something better” than themselves.

     
    Bobby, out of curiosity where do you live and how old are you?
    If you ever find yourself in Mexico City reply to me on here and I’ll show you around town. I’m a 6′ fit dude and the only issue with women here is scheduling dates around my other plans.
     

    Well, if you talk about Mexico City and know that I’m wealthy the chances are you will most likely try to kidnap and extort me like they usually do with foreigners in Mexico city, so no thank you.

  70. Bobby is just an incel who doesn’t know what he’s talking about:

    Actual studies have been done on the effect of height vs other factors on desirability —

    “The shoulder-to-hip ratio, however, accounted for a much larger proportion of variance in attractiveness in our model (79.6%).””Our study found no significant difference in the proportion of variance accounted for in our model by penis size and height (6.1% vs. 5.1%)”

    http://www.pnas.org/content/110/17/6925

    “Estimates of physical strength determined over 70% of men’s bodily attractiveness. Additional analyses showed that tallness and leanness were also favoured, and, along with estimates of physical strength, accounted for 80% of men’s bodily attractiveness.”

    http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/284/1869/20171819#sec-1

    Right there, studies are showing that height is way less important than being muscular and lean.

    Studies also show that people mate assortatively for height:

    “Assortative mating need not be a consequence of assortative preferences for height. A previous simulation study showed, for example, that simply a male‐taller norm (e.g., as a woman, only accept men who are taller than yourself as a partner) would result in assortative mating, without the couples explicitly pairing on similar (relative) height (Stulp et al., 2013c). Interestingly, the degree of assortative mating in such a case (i.e., in a situation where all couples abide by the male‐taller norm) is much stronger than observed here, suggesting yet again, that height, or even the male‐taller norm, is not particularly important when considering a partner.”

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5297874/

    “Although all known preference rules for height were qualitatively realised in actual couples, these effects were generally modest when compared to random mating

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0054186

    ” These findings confirm that height is relevant on the mating market. Across most of the height continuum, however, there was little variation in mean or median number of reported sex partners. Further, men between 5′7″ and 6′3″ (170–191 cm) varied little in whether they had more than 5 partners, had more than 14 partners, engaged in extra-pair sex, or were currently single.” “The relatively limited variation in sex partner number for men across much of the height continuum is difficult to explain.”

    http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1474704915604563

     

    These are actual studies. Anyone who actually socializes a significant amount (i.e. NOT Bobby) wouldn’t even need these studies to come to their conclusions, because they would have seen several different types of men — including short ones — have outsize success with attractive women.

    Don’t sell yourself short, Mike 🙂

  71. I’ve gotten more interaction on Tinder than every other platform combined, and I think this is because I may actually qualify as cute.  It’s all kind of irrelevant, because I’m that guy who gets a number, and then I can watch her interest going, going, gone.  I look fine.  My personality sucks.  I’ve been working on all of this for six years at this point, and I think it’s long since past time to accept that I am hopeless.

    I have decided to save up and buy a Real Doll.

  72. Well, if you talk about Mexico City and know that I’m wealthy the chances are you will most likely try to kidnap and extort me like they usually do with foreigners in Mexico city, so no thank you.

    Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!! Oh God! The guys who burned Galileo would be so proud!

     

    A recurring theme in my life over the last 11 years is that I have been consistency surprised at what women will put up with when it comes to sex.

    That’s true. Every once in a while a girl shows me a picture of a dude they had sex with and my reaction is: “Girl! WTF! Did he drug you!? o_O!”.

    Looks plays a part ovbiously, but if you excel in many other areas as the ones BD describes you can get the top 10% at least, I’ve seen it and I’m approaching to that level.

    All the rest is just child crying

  73. I wouldn’t qualify much more than a seven with looks. Maybe a cool beard and a good hat, I can go up to a 7.5 or 8. No denying that I’m a good story teller and can get women laughing at my jokes. I’ve had a good handful of 10s in my life. This thing about looks being an immutable law is just bullshit.

    Well, if you talk about Mexico City and know that I’m wealthy the chances are you will most likely try to kidnap and extort me like they usually do with foreigners in Mexico city, so no thank you.

    Hehe. Cracked me up, too. That this guy gets laid at all is proof that anyone can do it, no matter how lousy his personality is.

  74. What about if you’re approaching hot women and hot women are not showing interest back but  but women that are okay and slightly below okay are showing interest back then that shows a indication that the guy is ugly  do you not agree ?

    No, I don’t agree. Hotter women can initially spurn you for numerous reasons.

    I’ve gotten more interaction on Tinder than every other platform combined, and I think this is because I may actually qualify as cute.  It’s all kind of irrelevant, because I’m that guy who gets a number, and then I can watch her interest going, going, gone.  I look fine.  My personality sucks.  I’ve been working on all of this for six years at this point, and I think it’s long since past time to accept that I am hopeless.

    I have decided to save up and buy a Real Doll.

    Jesus.

  75. You’re correct..  when I look in the mirror I see my flaws and rate myself by those flaws..  which would be a 3 or 4, but women and gay men (lol) have described me as cute, mister clean,  nice to look at (when I’ve asked why they’re starring), to gorgeous..  Always get “you’re cuter in person”.  Why?  It’s attitude..  i think im The fucking man (ignore my flaws), don’t need them to get laid and they know that..  women can tell that shit..  I’m 49, 5’ 10”, bald, not tan, and probably 15lbs over weight and they don’t give a fuck.

  76. I would even argue that being really overweight, disfigured or having a fucked up face doesn’t make you ugly to women. Sure it will be harder to have one night stands BUT women look for men of value. If you have value to offer the world and women you will not be ugly.

  77. Bobby is just an incel who doesn’t know what he’s talking about:

    Can you please explain on what basis are you calling me an incel? I said I’m having sex with girls who aren’t ugly. I have had sex with 3 women and am having active sex with one of them now (once or twice a week). So how am I incel? You might answer: “Well, you are lying”.

    Alright, if I was lying, why would I lie about my abysmal approach numbers? Why would I not say I get laid in 1 of 5 approaches and brag about it instead? So what logical incentive would there be for me to lie about it?

    Please answer this question as you have by full, undivided, undisputed, unadulterated attention. Thank you.

    Right there, studies are showing that height is way less important than being muscular and lean.

    There is an underlying sub-conscious height bias in people: 

    Harvard University researches proved this in Implicit Association Test.
     

  78. Can you please explain on what basis are you calling me an incel? I said I’m having sex with girls who aren’t ugly. I have had sex with 3 women and am having active sex with one of them now (once or twice a week). So how am I incel? You might answer: “Well, you are lying”.

    Bobby, your mentality is that of an incel.  You are not involuntarily celibate, but you hate women equally as the incel community that you clearly surround yourself in does also.  This is glaringly obvious to 96 percent of the women you approach and THAT is that main reason for your problems.

    And don’t confuse that as me telling you to be nicer.  Asshole game can work just fine for guys like you, but you have to be an asshole in a somewhat aloof way.  The woman has to feel and believe you are bantering with her or kidding around somewhat.

    I promise you your strong distaste for the ways of the modern woman bleeds through in your approaches.  Likely you flip the “creepy” switch or the “danger” switch based on the vibes you give off.  It’s not as easy as changing your mannerisms in approaching.  I believe the only way you can fix that is to truly change your attitude and begin to appreciate the intricacies (good and bad) of today’s women.

    Just from reading your words here, I can tell you that even if you are less attractive than I would guess, I can promise you, your attitude with women is hurting you more than your looks.
    Read BD’s stuff and practice it, drop your corrosive attitude of women, and you will have much better luck.  Most of the incel community that you seem to side with, have this strong distaste for women, as well as a strong belief that women are too difficult/challenging to get.

    That attitude leaves them dumpy looking, angry/bitter, with bad game skills.  This only perpetuates their beliefs.  In reality, yes, women can be extremely challenging.  Fact is though, that if you study things like BD’s writings, how to maximize your social skills, how to maximize your looks, you will do much better with women.  Eventually you’ll begin to understand what truly works for you (maybe you’ll figure out exactly the one or two things that pulled the 3 women you have been with, and focus on improving that skillset) and you’ll begin to get more women.  As you get more women you’ll get more comfortable with them, and you’ll be able to pull in more, with less effort.  Just keep working on improving all aspects of yourself.  Make yourself more appealing and learn more game skills.

  79. What material do you recommend?

    https://nextasf.com/

    Join and go straight to the action reports section.

    (BD owns the place so he won’t mind me posting the link here)

    P.S. I don’t get the extreme animosity guys are showing each other here. As if the world was not fucked up enough. Geez!

  80. I’ve gotten more interaction on Tinder than every other platform combined, and I think this is because I may actually qualify as cute.  It’s all kind of irrelevant, because I’m that guy who gets a number, and then I can watch her interest going, going, gone.  I look fine.  My personality sucks.  I’ve been working on all of this for six years at this point, and I think it’s long since past time to accept that I am hopeless.

    Part of that is tinder but part of that is that someone needs to bitch slap you.    Tinder is full of girls with bfs, husbands, fiances, and ex’s they can’t stay away from.  You get their number, they play with you a bit, make themselves fell better and then go back to relationship land.  To be good at tinder you have to A) Know that B) be fast as fuck on the meet up  C) be prepared for bat shit crazy.

    Look you’re getting interest but losing it.  That’s a fucking crazy good place to build off of.  It’s fishing.  Set that fucking hook and get that motherfucker in the boat as fast as possible.  Stop playing with it.  Build momentum and set the date as soon as possible.  if she won’t meet when you want, on the day you’re available and she doesn’t propose another time put your line in somewhere else and go back to her later.  Don’t keep trying to catch the same fish.  Once you get a date don’t chat her up all the time.  You got her, chat up others to get them out.  I’m usually talking to 10-20 girls at the same time to get 2-3 dates in a week sometimes.  If anyone cancels fill that time slot.  So I don’t give a fuck if someone losses interest because I got 19 more.

    I have decided to save up and buy a Real Doll.

    My advice is take a break, evaluate, fix, and get your ass back out there once you stop being such a fucking pussy.  Seriously, fix your shit.  You got this.

  81. Hey BD, Do you think that after the age of 50 it becomes a lot easier for men to be monogamous? Surely one’s sex drive goes down significantly by that age.

  82. Hey BD, Do you think that after the age of 50 it becomes a lot easier for men to be monogamous? Surely one’s sex drive goes down significantly by that age.

    I’m no BD but i’m 49 and have turned down dates with a 24 year old and a 26 year old in the last 2 weeks.  With my son living with me, work, keeping up a house, working out, and wanting a nap more than sex I usually have timedesire for 2-3 fuck sessions a week.  And I don’t want to have to work too hard to get that fuck.  24 year old wanted me to go to concert.  I love concerts but shit, that’s a 5 hour commitment in the hot sun after working hard all week.  I got a pretty steady girl that will come to my house, gives me no drama, loves my dick, sucks my balls, lets me nap, and then leaves when I say.  I really don’t have to time or energy for anyone else for now.  So yeah, kind of.  Depends on your situation.  How busy you are.

  83. A blog post about 5’6 Neil Strauss, one of the most famous and successful PUA’s of all time, followed by a blog post where one of the commentators makes being short out to be a “DEATH SENTENCE”

    Funny.

    I’m just a hair over 5’7

    Let’s throw some truth about height in this comment section (at the very least it applies to men of my height)

    Referring to the research on height someone posted above:

    Height is a great example of “watching what women DO instead of listening to what they SAY”

    This explains why science shows virtually no difference in notch counts for men 5’7 – 6’2 (and a rather small drop-off below 5’7), despite women’s verbal preference for “tall” (but the researchers just can’t figure out why women’s stated preference doesn’t show up in the research! haha)

    “I only date (fuck) guys over 6′!”

    Except, you know sweetheart, I bang you every other week or so…

    “Women won’t date guys shorter than them!”

    My blond, HOT, soon-to-be ex-wife has 2″ on me. Her boyfriend when we met was like 6’3

    The truth:

    Being on the shorter side makes the initial attraction phase a bit harder, sure. Clubs, bars, online are all more difficult for example. But once that conversation is started, the vast majority of women don’t seem to give a shit and never mention it at all.

    That’s really the only downside at this height. That’s it. Not a big deal at all, really. Shorter guys seem to LIKE to make this a bigger deal internally than the external reality of the world would dictate. But here’s the thing guys, science proves your feelings about this are WRONG.

    Why the defeatist attitudes? Is it a deal breaker for some women? Yep. Fuck em, who gives a shit? Last I checked (and I check often), those women aren’t the only pussies on the planet…ya know?

    Confidence and OI are uber important to get passed that initial attraction phase. If you’ve ever internalized being shorter as a handicap (been there, done that), you MUST get to a point where you truly do not care about your height. Confidence to the point of irrationality and extreme outcome independence are your friend!

    I hope something in there helps my shorter brethren. It’s just not that big of deal. Science proves it.

    Also, to be on topic…I only self-identify as ugly when I am holding a woman’s purse.

  84. Bobby, your mentality is that of an incel. 

    Then use another word. Or say “your mentality is similar to that of an incel”.

    women equally as the incel community that you clearly surround yourself in does also

    I think you are also projecting something saying I hate women. I never said anything about hating women. I said about women having high standards, because they can choose alpha males. If I was in their place I would do the same, it is only logical. There is no hate here, I’m just admitting what real world is like. If you want to succeed, you need to be better than competition. Women don’t want average or their looksmatch, they want to date and “look up”. I don’t see this as a good or bad thing or something to love or hate, it’s just the way world works.

     

    This is glaringly obvious to 96 percent of the women you approach and THAT is that main reason for your problems.

    Alright, let me know specifically what the problem is in my approach. Thing is – you can’t. Because there is no way for me to deliver you majority of my approaches and for you to understand what I’m saying (I’m not English). So there is definitely something that 96 percent of women are get turned off by. But you cannot be sure if it is my vocal tonality, body language, what I say or my facial discrepancies. There is no way of knowing this apart from running some extensive science based testing. Also what you said is super vague and an empty platitude. It does not help me in any way, shape or form to increase my conversion numbers.

     

    And don’t confuse that as me telling you to be nicer.  Asshole game can work just fine for guys like you, but you have to be an asshole in a somewhat aloof way.  The woman has to feel and believe you are bantering with her or kidding around somewhat.

    I don’t think I’m asshole or that I’m a nice guy either. I’m clearly sexual. I mean, they sense this. A girl on date told me I’m too “open”. She was an academic nerd type. Other girls love this openness and non-judgemental attitude. People are more introverted where I live, so maybe I seem way too direct and open for many people. Speaking to people on street is weird here, but what can I do? All my lays are from street day game approach.

     

    I promise you your strong distaste for the ways of the modern woman bleeds through in your approaches.  Likely you flip the “creepy” switch or the “danger” switch based on the vibes you give off.  It’s not as easy as changing your mannerisms in approaching.  

    When did I mention any distaste for a modern woman? I accept the reality of life and would behave the same way if I was a woman. Please don’t put words in my mouth. In regards to “creepy” switch everyone knows that ugly guys are “creepy” and hot guys with same mannerisms are “mysterious”, so using that word is extremely subjective. What one girl might find creepy, other can find cool. “Danger” switch – maybe, because I’m very muscular and rather tall and brazen in my approaches. Women might have something go off in their heads “Wait, why would a guy in our introverted society would ever approach like this?”. I have been told I lack “shyness” and “timidity”.

     

    I believe the only way you can fix that is to truly change your attitude and begin to appreciate the intricacies (good and bad) of today’s women.

     

    I have accepted the reality of life and I neither appreciate or hate them, but if you think I hate modern women please go and find where I have expressed it and quote me on it. I will wait.

     

    Just from reading your words here, I can tell you that even if you are less attractive than I would guess, I can promise you, your attitude with women is hurting you more than your looks.

    That is an extremely vague statement. Ok, let us assume it is attitude. So how do I change it? What attitude do I adopt? Become more shy? Become more timid? I’m not sure. Tell me.

    Read BD’s stuff and practice it, drop your corrosive attitude of women, and you will have much better luck.  Most of the incel community that you seem to side with, have this strong distaste for women, as well as a strong belief that women are too difficult/challenging to get.

    I have read all posts on BD. I practice what he says on first dates and when I did so the academic nerd girl said I was too “open”. This is at point where I started asking questions about her relationships. As for incels – I don’t side with them, because there is no such thing as “incel” if you have working genitals. Even the ugliest male can pay for sex or go to Malaysia and buy some disfigured 2/10 fat, old single mom of 5 with skin disease and lose their incel status. What incels are really are “vocels” aka voluntarily celibate like Elliot Rodgers. He wanted hot white Stacy frat house Bimbos, but girls like that will never pay attention to an autist with gay lips, JoJo mannerisms, weak frame, hapa genes and small dick. He didn’t accept this, so instead of going for his looksmatch (some weird, fat, unwanted nerd girl), he went berserk. So he was not incel, he was volcel. Also, incels have proved through a multitude of studies that looks matter A WHOLE LOT. Just check the Tinder experiments with male models vs average guys. It tells you all and it is science based. So as you see I don’t fully agree to incels, but I agree that looks matter the most.

    Fact is though, that if you study things like BD’s writings, how to maximize your social skills, how to maximize your looks, you will do much better with women

    I have looksmaxxed with steroids and various procedures for my face and body as well as a wardrobe worth probably 50k$ at this point. I read all BD posts and regularly refer to them when going on dates or approaching. I do my best to appear “relaxed” instead of “cool” as BD says. The results are still as they are. I would not be frustrated if I had not tried all of this already.

  85. Confidence to the point of irrationality and extreme outcome independence are your friend!

    CCMidwest has a good point.

  86. I’m just a hair over 5’7

    So’s my buddy, if he’s lucky.  He’s fucked more women than Genghis Khan.  Most of that shit women say is based upon who they will Disney Marry.  The list of who they will fuck is much much bigger.

  87. Hey BD, Do you think that after the age of 50 it becomes a lot easier for men to be monogamous? Surely one’s sex drive goes down significantly by that age.

    Sex drive does go down a bit after 50. But it’s a use it or lose it thing. Monogamy is a great way to lose it. And it’s not that you don’t feel unhappy about losing it, you just get used to feeling unhappy and figure you haven’t got that long left anyway, so the hell with it. It take a bit more conscious effort to stay sexual after 50.

    When my grandmother died, my grandfather was 75. We found out then that he had two other women on the side in long term relationships, at least, one of them around 40. And he wasn’t filthy rich or anything, a modest middle class professional. So some people keep on going.

  88. Most of that shit women say is based upon who they will Disney Marry.

    Yeah, the “ideal man” checklist.

    However, a gal that “falls in love” and marries a shorter guy will fiercely defend his height to anyone that mentions it.

  89. Hey BD, Do you think that after the age of 50 it becomes a lot easier for men to be monogamous? Surely one’s sex drive goes down significantly by that age.

    Over 50, no. Over 60, yes. Over 70, definitely. (Though there are huge exceptions to all of these.)

    A blog post about 5’6 Neil Strauss, one of the most famous and successful PUA’s of all time, followed by a blog post where one of the commentators makes being short out to be a “DEATH SENTENCE”

    Yup.

    But again, these guys want to be angry. That’s the part that’s hard for normal-thinking guys to understand.

  90. That’s the part that’s hard for normal-thinking guys to understand.

    Oh, I get it. After I had more than a decade of “monogamous” marriage under my belt, I started to feel pretty bad about myself (much as you describe in this post), and focused on my height.

    Ended up reading all this shit on the internet, internalized how these guys think, even interviewed 2 limb-lengthening doctors. I’m fairly wealthy, so I could of done it…thank God I didn’t.

    It’s easy to play the victim of circumstance. That takes responsibility off of ME and puts it on God, mother nature, luck, my parents, whatever.

    What a way to live. Not my proudest moments.

    Basically I went insane for about 18 months.

    One day about 4 years ago I decided to prove that it wasn’t a big deal. Got laid less than 48 hours later, and kept her as an out-of-town (travel for business) FB for almost 2 years (until she got engaged lol)

    That was the start of my shift from extreme Alpha 1.0 to Alpha 2.0 (still working on it!)

    So yeah, I get it. And if I’m not careful I start over-thinking and internalizing it again.

  91. Question about the 2% rule :

     

    I get it for items where the chance of an adverse outcome is 2% or less.  Proceed, because the chance of a mishap is too small.

    BUT, by that logic, the same applies to favorable outcomes of 2%.

    For example, don’t bother to write a screenplay, since the chance that it will get made into a film by a real studio is under 2%, or..

    Don’t waste your life trying to do a tech startup, as the chance that it will pay out much more than spending the same years in an easy corporate job, are under 2%.  

    This would seem to be the logical extension of the 2% rule, since if negative outcomes can be ignored at that percentage, don’t pursue positive outcomes with less than that chance of happening either.

    Thoughts?

     

     

  92. For example, don’t bother to write a screenplay, since the chance that it will get made into a film by a real studio is under 2%, or..

    Don’t waste your life trying to do a tech startup, as the chance that it will pay out much more than spending the same years in an easy corporate job, are under 2%.  

    This would seem to be the logical extension of the 2% rule, since if negative outcomes can be ignored at that percentage, don’t pursue positive outcomes with less than that chance of happening either.

    Thoughts?

    Correct. I would never spend a decent amount of time on anything that had only a 2% chance of working out. (I am not commenting on this topic further since it’s off-topic in this thread.)

  93. Bobby if you’re exclusively doing day game, your success rate is 1 in 200, and you’re trying to get laid consistently rather than just finding one girl for monogamy, then it’s not surprising at all that you’re frustrated. A strategy like that is just begging for extremely long dry spells. Shit, I wouldn’t even exclusively do daygame if the success rate were 1 in 50– approaching knowing there’s a 98% chance that I’m wasting my time sounds awful… so I can’t even fathom a 99.5% failure rate like you lol

    You should be doing daygame “passively” rather than “actively” with numbers like that. In other words, don’t go outside with the intention of spamming daygame approaches. Just incorporate daygame into your lifestyle whenever you’re running errands or something and you cross paths with someone you want to talk to. Meanwhile, you should be on OKCupid, POF, Tinder, Bumble, and as many other sites as you can to supplement your numbers.

    Additionally, if I were in your shoes I’d invest my energy in social circle game until I could get laid consistently elsewhere. Do you have very many female friends in your life that you talk to or hang out with? Platonic friends? Coworkers? Significant others of your male friends?

  94. @Bulma78

    It’s interesting that you actually like guys closer to yeur height.

    Do you also like guys 5’2″ to 5’9″ who are super skinny, or skinny-fat (meaning either really no muscle, think similar muscle development as a veriy old grand mother or a skinny woman, and low fat, or with a fat layer above but total weight is healty for his height). Skinny-fat guy could for instance have a very androgynous type of body. Or not. Biceps very probably less large or equal to yours.

    Also how much do you weight, and do you like to date date men whose total weight is equal or less than you?

  95. BD, I was going to put up a lot of studies showing that height isn’t really that important in the dating world but the comment got blocked.

    No it didn’t. It’s there. Scroll up a few screens.

    How can I post links?

    You can, but if you post a bunch, WordPress will block the comment until I manually push it through, which may take up to 24 hours.

  96. Can you please explain on what basis are you calling me an incel? I said I’m having sex with girls who aren’t ugly. 

    Anyone who says things like ‘X IS A DEATH SENTENCE’ is likely an incel or at least messed up in the mind. I don’t really care what else you say about your so-called awesome life.

    There is an underlying sub-conscious height bias in people:

    Dude get the fuck out of here. I quote you several peer-reviewed studies and the best you come back with is a research finding that is CONSISTENT with what I’ve said? I didn’t say it doesn’t matter AT ALL or that no bias exists. But whatever bias there is seems to be fairly insignificant. Also, the IAT is bogus research:

    “One of the IAT’s most vocal critics is Texas A&M University psychologist Hart Blanton, PhD. He worries that the IAT has reached fad status among researchers without the proper psychometric assessments to warrant its current uses in the public domain.
    Blanton has published several articles detailing what he considers the IAT’s many psychometric failings, but if he has to highlight one weakness, it’s the way the test is scored. The IAT measures people’s associations between concepts. So, the classic race IAT compares whether you’re quicker to link European-Americans with words associated with the concept “bad” and African-Americans with words related to “good” or vice versa. Your score is on a scale of -2.0 to 2.0, with anything above 0.65 or below negative 0.65 indicating a “strong” link.
    “There’s not a single study showing that above and below that cutoff people differ in any way based on that score,” says Blanton.
    Guilty as charged, says the University of Virginia’s Brian Nosek, PhD, an IAT developer.”
    So great, it’s a test that seems to have no real way to predict ACTIONS.

     

  97. There is no way of knowing this apart from running some extensive science based testing. 

    That won’t work as you want guys who’ve done thousands of approaches and got laid, giving you feedback not some guys in white lab coats.

  98. To those of you mentioning FaceandLMS’s youtube channel that discusses the issues of face, height and race… I agree 100% the evidence is clear, on these particular traits men are screwed if they fall into any of the wrong categories.

    BD should seriously watch a few of his well researched videos on the subject before claiming it’s so easy to be physically attractive to women, guys like me are screwed – the evidence is clear and it’s near impossible to fix many of our faults, dam you genetics.

     

    Thanks

  99. BD should seriously watch a few of his well researched videos on the subject before claiming it’s so easy to be physically attractive to women, guys like me are screwed – the evidence is clear and it’s near impossible to fix many of our faults, dam you genetics.

    So…let’s say you’re right. You’re screwed. What are you going to do about it besides cry on this blog? What, exactly, are you looking for when you spout this stuff? Do you just want people to empathize with you? Say “You must have it so hard” or something?

    Quite frankly, even if everything you said is true (and it’s quite clearly not, given the studies linked above), you have no reason to care about it, the only thing you can reasonably do is proceed as if it were false and continue trying to get laid.

  100. CCMidwest:

    This explains why science shows virtually no difference in notch counts for men 5’7 – 6’2 (and a rather small drop-off below 5’7), despite women’s verbal preference for “tall” (but the researchers just can’t figure out why women’s stated preference doesn’t show up in the research! haha)

    In a book titled Dr. Z on Scoring (written by Dr. Victoria Zdrok, a former Playboy centerfold and Penthouse Pet of the year), Julie Strain (another former Penthouse Pet) was asked about height, and she said that it didn’t matter (she said that she dated a 5’6′ man once, and he had the biggest heart).

  101. Skinny-fat guy could for instance have a very androgynous type of body. Or not. Biceps very probably less large or equal to yours.

    Any guy with arms under 12 inches should work on getting there or above (14+ would be better; 17+ may scare off a modest percentage of women but who cares), and obviously bringing up the rest of his body in proportion. Barring a serious health-related obstacle, no man should *stay* skinny-fat, it’s a very fixable condition. 1° clean up diet, 2° pick a handful of big compound exercises and fanatically commit to doubling your 10-rep max at them, 3° maybe add some fat loss oriented work if 1-2 are in order. That’s it.

  102. Quite frankly, even if everything you said is true (and it’s quite clearly not, given the studies linked above), you have no reason to careabout it, the only thing you can reasonably do is proceed as if it were false and continue trying to get laid.

    This is the best part of all of this senseless crying. If all this was true. If only Giorgio Armani male cologne models are the only guys capable to get the Top 10% or 5% of the pussy, if all the studies published by lab rats about the issue are true, the best outcome you ever possibly can have on this is……. staying on the same. All these incels (I don’t give a f*ck if the word is well used or not) claiming to pray the Lord if you have one ear higher than the other and suggesting to see that FaceLMS Youtube channel (I won’t even use my finger to scroll up to look for the right name) are just wasting your f*cking time (which it seems they don’t mind to waste) plaguing blogs and boards to spread their tears.

    Regarding that Youtube channel you are just filling the owner’s pockets with the free advertising you are doing for him. At least BD is straight honest since day 1 as he claims he is here to make money and that’s one of the main goals (if not, the first one) of this blog and his teachings. And if you ask me, with everything he has teached among the years he has rightly earned his well damn money!

  103. BD should seriously watch a few of his well researched videos on the subject before claiming it’s so easy to be physically attractive to women

    When, specifically, did I ever claim it was was easy to be physically attractive to women?

    Please either present a link to where I said that, or admit that you’re lying.

    I don’t see anything called “action reports”.

    You need to create an account and log in once its active (which may take 24 hours). Action Reports at that forum are hidden to the public, per the requests of the posters over there.

  104. So’s my buddy, if he’s lucky.  He’s fucked more women than Genghis Khan.  Most of that shit women say is based upon who they will Disney Marry.  The list of who they will fuck is much much bigger.

    Same with my mate. He’s about 5’8″ and averages about 50 to 80 new girls per year and has done for years. Usually has about 5-7 girls on rotation and is always chasing new ones. He’s 34 now and most of the girls he fucks are between 18 – 25. He has worked very hard on his game though over the years, reading heaps, been on quite a few bootcamps and other PUA style training.  He has also consistently practiced day and night game and still does it all the time. He’s an approach machine now. He’s totally useless at online game or tinder. Probably because he doesn’t spend enough time on it being too busy with live game.

    He recently started trying to help an Asian friend of his who is only about 5’5″ and not that built. Introduced him to all the game theory and resources and started taking him out to show him a few things. This Asian guy is a bit nerdy and has taken a super technical approach to it all, breaking it all down into detail and trying to apply it extremely precisely. Analyses all his approaches and interactions and trys to correct anything he is doing wrong etc. His lay count before they started was 4 girls in his whole life. So far this year he is up to 45 new girls. Even my mate is a bit shocked at how well he has picked it all up and how well he is doing.

    Like most skills in life, guys who reckon game doesn’t work haven’t really tried it properly. They’ve just messed around with it a bit at a low level and then when it gets too hard they give up and start making excuses about why it doesn’t work rather than look at what they are doing wrong. Eg. I’m too short! Women are too fussy! bla bla bla

    Well, if you talk about Mexico City and know that I’m wealthy the chances are you will most likely try to kidnap and extort me like they usually do with foreigners in Mexico city, so no thank you.

    @Bobby The fact you wrote this is pretty scary to begin with. If you actually believe it then your issues are definitely not looks related.

     Also, incels have proved through a multitude of studies that looks matterA WHOLE LOT. Just check the Tinder experiments with male models vs average guys. It tells you all and it is science based. So as you see I don’t fully agree to incels, but I agree that looks matter the most.

    These sorts of experiments don’t prove jack shit! Click bait at best.

    I’ll tell you one thing though. If you approach a women and you 100% believe in your mind that looks are the most important thing. Then most likely she will be turned off by you. That is very low value thinking and most women can pick that shit up from 100 miles away.

  105. @Parade
    The only thing you can reasonably do is proceed as if it were false and continue trying to get laid.

    I’d say people who’ve completely lost the looks lottery are better off focusing on financial gains and making connections rather than to keep on approaching large numbers and wasting a lot of time. (approaching hundreds for measly single-digit gains is not a good use of your valuable time,especially not in the long term)

    Assuming they manage to make it(even this is not guaranteed after all and their looks could still hold them back here. a lot of people are shallow and will judge you for the way you look,even in the professional field),they could just live off paying for quality escorts and such,and maybe the very occasional attractive woman who is receptive to them. While Quasimodo will never be a complete Alpha 2.0,he can get as close to it as possible in other areas of his life.

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2014/02/02/4-essential-alpha-male-traits-that-will-make-your-life-awesome/

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2016/08/08/my-response-to-mgtows/

    Incels are right about one thing though. below a certain looks threshold,you will never be able to consistently succeed with reasonably attractive women. I believe even BD won’t disagree here. Its one of the many reasons I’ve subscribed to the Antinatalism philosophy and why procreation/giving birth is morally grey at best. Even a beautiful,healthy and intelligent couple could end up giving birth to an ugly,disease-ridden,and retarded offspring. That’s how much of a gamble it really is. Until we technologically advance to the point of Gattaca,people should deeply introspect before ever considering giving birth. Incels,if you do manage to successfully get an attractive mate,pls don’t procreate and don’t create more people in your position.

  106. 1. When incels refer to themselves as ugly, they don’t mean it that way. What they actually mean is being invisible to women, even when they are average or decent looking. So saying only very fat or disabled looking guys have a hard time finding women doesn’t make it any easier for an average looking guy when it comes to being visible to women.

    2. Height doesn’t matter for lays or when you approach a girl in a suitable location (anywhere that’s not a Club, Bar or Disco) BUT it does when

    a) you are looking for a girlfriend and

    b) when you are surrounded by tall good looking or even average looking guys, who hit at the same women – actually most women will automatically look at them, rather than you, if you are short and they are tall. Being good at pick up doesn’t mean a woman will pay attention to you if she sees better options.

     

    Regarding that Youtube channel you are just filling the owner’s pockets with the free advertising you are doing for him. At least BD is straight honest since day 1 as he claims he is here to make money and that’s one of the main goals (if not, the first one) of this blog and his teachings.  

    That FaceLMS guy would make a lot more cash if he focused more on selling, like a strategy, PU or becoming Alpha products, such as BD does but he doesn’t. Instead his videos will make many incels become more desperate so money is not that guy’s goal since he barely has made like what, 10-15 videos in all those years.

     

    @Jack:

    The terms you used were invented by a group of losers who breed psychopathic murderers. This is just a fact. I simply think that we shouldn’t stoop to their level by using their cult language.

    So if a guy goes on a shooting rampage, who happens to be a member of this blog, then using such words as AFC, Hard Next, Beta or OLTR would be correlated to a breed of psychopaths murderes too, right?

     

     

  107. 1. When incels refer to themselves as ugly, they don’t mean it that way. What they actually mean is being invisible to women,

    So do a cartwheel across the dance floor already. Hahaha

     

  108. Berti:   2. Height doesn’t matter for lays or when you approach a girl in a suitable location (anywhere that’s not a Club, Bar or Disco) BUT it does when

    a) you are looking for a girlfriend and

    b) when you are surrounded by tall good looking or even average looking guys, who hit at the same women – actually most women will automatically look at them, rather than you, if you are short and they are tall. Being good at pick up doesn’t mean a woman will pay attention to you if she sees better options.

    I think that women are obsessed with height because of what BD talked about in his book. It is part of the prison and social programming. And, I wonder if it has gotten worse over the last 20 years. This guy on You Tube said that women in his school didn’t want to date him because he was 5’8′ (which is silly).

    Also, what is the problem with the club, bar, and disco?

  109. I don’t see anything called “action reports”.

    You must join to see some hidden sections

  110.  

    Ended up reading all this shit on the internet, internalized how these guys think, even interviewed 2 limb-lengthening doctors. I’m fairly wealthy, so I could of done it…thank God I didn’t.

     
    CCMidwest,  I think 5’7” is plenty tall!  You’re just fine!  So glad you didn’t go through with that either.
     

    It’s interesting that you actually like guys closer to your height. Do you also like guys 5’2″ to 5’9″ who are super skinny, or skinny-fat (meaning either really no muscle, think similar muscle development as a very old grand mother or a skinny woman, and low fat, or with a fat layer above but total weight is healthy for his height). Skinny-fat guy could for instance have a very androgynous type of body. Or not. Biceps very probably less large or equal to yours. Also how much do you weight, and do you like to date men whose total weight is equal or less than you?

     
    Hi Gang, I’m only 5’3” and about 114lbs.  I doubt there is any man who weighs less than me, even if he’s only 5’2”. When you spell all that stuff out in words, it’s easy for me to say I like it or I don’t, but truly, I’d need to see the person.  Everything matters; the personality, the voice, everything……and that’s the only way to decide yes or no.  Without seeing, I’m going to say I wouldn’t prefer super skinny.  I don’t care about the actual number in weight as long as I like the overall look.  Some muscles are always better than none, but I’m not into the body-builder look at all….but again, I’m going to judge very differently just going by stats on paper vs. seeing a real, living creature.  Hmm, a few years ago there was this guy at my work that very much fit the description you gave and I had some kind of odd crush on him; I was surprised that I was attracted to him.  I guess you don’t consciously pick and choose who you’re attracted to, it just happens.

  111. I’m like Bulma and am attracted to short men, too. I’m 4’9 so it won’t take much to be bigger than me. When I see a cute shorty not much taller than me, I just think how fun & easier it’d be to reach for stuff while having sex.

  112. When you spell all that stuff out in words, it’s easy for me to say I like it or I don’t, but truly, I’d need to see the person.  Everything matters; the personality, the voice, everything……and that’s the only way to decide yes or no.  

    This is one of the most important comments on this whole thread.

    Looks can matter, height can matter, but there is a shit load of other things that matter as well. Confidence, attitude, style, outcome independence, the quirky preferences of the girl (it doesn’t matter how hot the girl is. They all have different preferences just like guys), body shape, achievements, social status/proof etc etc. There are so many things. That’s why obsessing about one thing like height or looks is just dumb.

  113. Outcome independence

    How do you “get” or “learn” outcome independence? What do you do?

  114. How do you “get” or “learn” outcome independence? What do you do?

    Besides the info in BD’s book, allow me to also chime in. When people are outcome dependent, they place a lot of emotional stake in others. They are following what I call in my blog “crush culture” meaning that they value others over themselves.

    While you’re always going to value others somewhat, you need to value yourself more. So Outcome independence is about placing just enough value in the other person/thing to where you still kind of care about it, but not too much to where it is dictating how you should be feeling.

    Its about being curious as well. Like let’s say there is a chick you really like and she’s really attractive. But there’s also a possibility of hundreds or thousands more chicks who are even more attractive. So if you are outcome independent, you’ll be curious to see if there are more attractive chicks than the one you are trying to get at.

    I’m learning this as a freelancer as well: There are some clients who I really want to work with who I know will pay me real well for easy work, but I also know that there may be other clients who will pay me even more for easier work and its my job to find those as well.

    Curiosity is the best trait to develop when developing outcome independence. In my experience at least.

  115. I’m considered tall and handsome by most people who meet me.  I still have to work my ass off to make progress with chicks.  So many are self-absorbed, delirious about their own value, it takes work for everybody.  The ultimate trump card is FAME.

     

    And you can fake some fame by being popular locally, or in your work/social circle.  That’s why SOOO many girls fuck their co-workers, even if they’re nasty, short, and broke.  Women are seriously sheep.

  116. There’s nothing inherently wrong with being short or ugly; those traits are for the most part out of one’s control, unlike being broke or nasty.

    But congrats on being born one of the beautiful people, I guess. Good for you man.

  117. I’m 6 foot tall, 175lbs, good muscles, good tan skin tone, no physical deformities, I’m smart, and I have a good sense of humor, been a business guy for most of my life, I look way younger than my age…….

    Despite this, it’s been a LONG road.

    Most people would never think I would even have any problems with women.

    And, now, I don’t.   (thank you BD)

    But, before I was either very Alpha 1.0 or very beta depending on the situation.

    Thus, it shows that BD is bringing forth the right principles for you guys to figure this out.

    It’s easy to talk about homeless guys on the couch, or deformed people who got a tough life break, but even for those of us who most of you think “has everything going for them”…..the vast majority most likely have just as many if not more problems than you on this subject.

    PS.  I made the mistake last year of asking a few ladies about my looks and general confidence.   Holy shit.  It was some of the worst/best advice I ever had and one of the most depressing times of my life.   Watch what they do, not what they say.

  118. I think that women are obsessed with height because of what BD talked about in his book. It is part of the prison and social programming. And, I wonder if it has gotten worse over the last 20 years. This guy on You Tube said that women in his school didn’t want to date him because he was 5’8′ (which is silly).

    I agree with that. Women care what their friends and family think a lot more than men do. They care about society norms and who is popular and all that. Definately things have gotten worse. So even when you are short and a woman likes you, chances are she might reject you anyway because her girl friends are all dating 6’2 guys. lol

    Also, what is the problem with the club, bar, and disco?

    Too much competition, especially Clubs and Discos. The music is way too loud, so there is almost no  chance of talking to a girl, face to face,  that’s why looks will be the Nr. 1 reason whether you succeed there or not.

  119. Thanks, joelsuf, I’ll remember to be curious! Doesn’t it make you perpetually unhappy with what you have, though? Half-answering my question, I believe that if it’s curiosity then it’s not. If it’s desire, it definitely does make person unhappy.

    My book, Chapter 15.

    I’ve read that chapter before, I have read it now again.

    In the confidence section, you say you’d be reasonably confident in any new situation as well, however as an example you’ve used doing a speech on a topic you know nothing about. Sure, the topic is a new thing, however the speech is something you’ve done hundreds of times. Therefore it is not a truly new situation.

    A truly new situation would be, for example, dancing when you’ve never done it before, or maybe one or two times in your life. Or drawing an owl for the first time: https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/572/078/d6d.jpg

    Dating is very new for me. I have never had any success in regular dating, or picking up women; as a young guy I consider some of my past successes worthy as confidence sources. However I don’t think I’ve ever been able to ‘fake it ’till you make it’. It’s not that it feels silly to me – it doesn’t. It feels just like the name implies, fake, and people see right through it. Perhaps I’ve tried to model wrong roles; lately I’ve been watching some Russell Brand and he seems more like me, although somewhat too fast for me. If you know any guys inbetween Russell Brand and those classic cool, collected alphas, let me know. I’ve barely watched any Hollywood in my life.

    As for outcome independence, I’ve found your blog about a year ago, and since a few months have been practising OI in life areas other than dating. It’s been a long way but I believe it’s working. The one thing that I’ve noticed about OI in other life areas is that I’m significantly happier.

    I suppose I am just insecure because I haven’t yet seen the results of that mindset in that one life area because of which I came to your blog in the first place: dating. Dating and pickup have been making me unhappy (or should I say, I have been making myself unhappy). Soon I’ll have just dating in mind, hitting it from all possible angles. I sincerely hope for it to be that love potion!

  120. However, you say that one should keep his cool to not act too horny. However is there such a thing as restraining horniness too much?

    I feel like I am restraining horniness too much, being too timid and this causes anti-courage, where I am afraid of sending “I’m interested” signals while dating/pickup.

  121. Doesn’t it make you perpetually unhappy with what you have, though? Half-answering my question, I believe that if it’s curiosity then it’s not. If it’s desire, it definitely does make person unhappy.

    There is a massive difference between curiosity and desire. When you desire something, you have more emotional stake, so you should be certain that you’re going to get what you have the emotional stake in. Really, you should only desire things from yourself. For example, I want to make more money freelancing and this month I hit a pretty nice milestone: I made $500 in a month. So now I want to make $1000. This is desire. But instead of placing emotional stake in my current clients and future clients to give me work to do, I’m instead placing emotional stake in myself to ask clients for more work and to seek out more clients if necessary. I’m placing the pressure on myself.

    No one (unless they have PROVEN that they can show you a better way) has the right to place pressure on you. But you should ALWAYS place pressure on yourself. That’s how amazing progress gets made.

    There is no real emotional stake when it comes to curiosity. Think of a cat or a kid. They just get into things. They need to know what it is but if they do not know what it is they will never be satisfied. Yes this can go awry and you can be curious about the wrong things. That’s where being aware of things comes in. Gotta think 5-10 years ahead, not 5-10 seconds ahead (which is we are SP’d to do).

  122. How do you “get” or “learn” outcome independence? What do you do?

    in the end you have to create it with options..  you can tell yourself all you want that your outcome independent but if you don’t have options or the ability to create options you are not OI..  You have to know that if this girl doesn’t want you that you can literally walk out the door, around the corner and fuck someone else just as desirable..  if you can’t you’re not OI no matter what you tell yourself..

  123. in the end you have to create it with options..  you can tell yourself all you want that your outcome independent but if you don’t have options or the ability to create options you are not OI..  You have to know that if this girl doesn’t want you that you can literally walk out the door, around the corner and fuck someone else just as desirable..  if you can’t you’re not OI no matter what you tell yourself.

    100% agree. I was going to say this as well. OI is all about options. With women and in every area of life.

    Focusing on yourself and building your skills in every part of your life so that no matter what happens your a confident that you can get what you want or need regardless of the outcome of this particular situation or interaction. Scarcity and narrow minded mentality is the ultimate killer of O.I.

    So instead of focusing on getting one women you are focused on your skills with women so that you can confident of always getting them if you want/need to.

    Instead of focusing on getting one job you are focused on getting your skills to a level where you can always make money somehow and through multiple channels.

    Instead of focusing on what you don’t have (eg. I’m too short…boohoo poor me.) you focus on maximizing your health/physique, style, looks etc etc. That way you are confident you are getting the most out of what you do have.

    You can’t fake it until you make unless you are putting in the work to actually make it!!

  124. Yeah, my point was what to do when you don’t have actual abundance yet. Of course that’s your goal, but until then, it feels like catch-22 with women: women sense your lack of abundance and it turns them off, but you need women to have abundance.

     

    I suppose positive affirmations and meditating on the feeling like you already have abundance would help.

  125. @bd  I get more women by meeting them  in bars ,clubs festivals and work and so on than I do online is that not due to me being ugly to these women online ,  and in person they looking into other factors that you can’t see online as well looking at my looks

  126. Yeah, my point was what to do when you don’t have actual abundance yet. Of course that’s your goal, but until then, it feels like catch-22 with women: women sense your lack of abundance and it turns them off, but you need women to have abundance.

    Most guys don’t even know that its possible to have abundance with women. They get into this mentality that every girl they like is some sort of super special unicorn that they’ll never find again. Instead of working on themselves and their skills with women they spend their time fantasizing about how amazing she is. Most of which is not even real. Just made up rubbish in their minds.

    It all starts in your head. The fact you know there are literally 100,000’s of women out there who could like you, that you would find attractive and that you can develop skills to make it easier to get them should instantly start to make you more OI. It’s a process. You start there keep working on your game and the more success you have the more confirmations you will get that will strengthen you understand and make it more and more real. You OI will go up naturally as part of that process.

  127. Yeah, my point was what to do when you don’t have actual abundance yet. Of course that’s your goal, but until then, it feels like catch-22 with women: women sense your lack of abundance and it turns them off, but you need women to have abundance.

    At first you focus on getting replies to your messages online.  Once your good enough at that than you have OI in regards to getting replies.  Then you focus on getting them on dates.  Now you have OI in regards to that.  Then you focus on fucking them.  Then fucking them quickly.  Then fucking them and making them cum over and over and over before you have cum yourself.  Now you have OI in regards to that.  Then you work on making them want to fuck you to the point they’re aggressive about it. That’s my new obsession. Learning how to make them aggressively initiate sex, on a date, on a regular basis. It’s a process.  One step at a time.  Now when you walk into a date it’s over before it starts.  So that’s how.

  128. As they say proof is in the pudding. One of my affirmations reads “I’m hot as hell, I’m incredibly handsome”. It doesn’t matter whether this is “true” or not because women prefer a confident but average looking guy over a good looking but self-doubting one. When fat, ugly and graceless girls who work shitty jobs behave like they are Marry Antoinette, why shouldn’t you behave like a proud guy?

  129. @Alex

    It doesn’t matter whether this is “true” or not because women prefer a confident but average looking guy over a good looking but self-doubting one.

    Not at all. If you are good looking but self-doubting they will excuse your behaviour as “cute” or “down to earth”. Most men don’t want to understand that women get wet by good looks just like men get boners by good looks.

     

    When fat, ugly and graceless girls who work shitty jobs behave like they are Marry Antoinette, why shouldn’t you behave like a proud guy?

    Have you ever met a fat, ugly and graceless girl who acted like a Queen that you were attracted to? If not, then there is no reason to believe women feel differently about ugly fat guys who act like George Clooney.

     

  130. It doesn’t matter whether this is “true” or not because women prefer a confident but average looking guy over a good looking but self-doubting one.

    Not at all. If you are good looking but self-doubting they will excuse your behaviour as “cute” or “down to earth”. Most men don’t want to understand that women get wet by good looks just like men get boners by good looks.

    When fat, ugly and graceless girls who work shitty jobs behave like they are Marry Antoinette, why shouldn’t you behave like a proud guy?

    Have you ever met a fat, ugly and graceless girl who acted like a Queen that you were attracted to? If not, then there is no reason to believe women feel differently about ugly fat guys who act like George Clooney.

    Women’s attraction, that actually leads to them spreading their legs for you, is much more complicated than that.

    Btw, Pornhub relased their top 10 most searched after terms for women on their site.  The top 4 where “Dad Bod” “hairy” “Big Dick” and I believe “Daddy”.  Not surprised on “big dick’ but the rest kind of surprised me.  Women are complicated.  They don’t choose men they want to fuck like you choose women.

     

  131. Btw, Pornhub relased their top 10 most searched after terms for women on their site.  The top 4 where “Dad Bod” “hairy” “Big Dick” and I believe “Daddy”.  Not surprised on “big dick’ but the rest kind of surprised me.  Women are complicated.  They don’t choose men they want to fuck like you choose women.

    I am sure MILF/Mature, BBW, hairy, big tits/ass are on top as well when it comes to male preferences in porn, so there is no big difference at all. I don’t know any guy who goes for skinny model type of women.  We feel attracted to feminine-masuculine physical traits.

  132. Well, I go for the skinny model type. I’m very attracted to petite, pubescent-like girls. There’s not a lot of us, but we do exist 🙂

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