A while back I wrote this article on now to avoid and manage shit tests from women. In that article, one of the examples I used was when a woman attempts to emasculate and betaize you by asking you to hold her purse, even if it’s just “for a second,” and how you should avoid doing that.

Very sadly, many guys in both the comments and my email expressed concern over this purse holding thing, worrying that she might “think you’re a dick” or that it might be “awkward,” and so on.

I really, really wish I didn’t have to actually take the time on this blog to explain why holding a woman’s purse for her, even if it’s “for just a second” is a horrible thing for your frame and your relationship.

But I guess I have to. So here it is.

To clarify what I’m saying, you should never hold a woman’s purse. Never. Even if it’s “just for a second.” I am only referring to a woman’s purse here. I am not referring to things like shopping bags or other generic bags, as I’ll explain in a moment. I’m only talking about a woman’s purse.

Here are the questions and concerns I’ve received about this issue and their answers:

1.“What if she asks me to hold her purse for a second, I refuse, and then she thinks I’m a dick?”

If you are asking that question, you are still a beta. You still have a ways to go. Your mindset is completely and utterly in the wrong place.

You want her to think you’re a “dick” occasionally. Not all the time, but occasionally. Stop reading this, and I’m serious now, stop reading right now and go read this article. Read it twice if you have to, then come back and continue reading here. I’m serious. Go. I’ll wait.

I say that because either you’ve never read that article or you’ve read it but you don’t fully understand it. Read it until you understand it and internalize it. If a woman never thinks you’re a “dick,” if you always do whatever she asks, then her attraction for you will plummet, betaization will increase, drama will increase, she will leave you sooner than she normally would, and the odds of her ever coming back to you after she leaves you go down.

I have a 94% return rate for women who leave me. 94% come back, and all of these women think I’m a “dick” sometimes by not adhering to their feminine agenda. That’s why they left. If I was never a “dick,” this return rate would be 5%, not 94%. Being a “dick” sometimes is what works.

Again! I’m not saying you need to be a dick all the time. That’s Alpha Male 1.0 territory. I’m saying you’re a chill, polite, outcome independent guy who regularly says no to some of her requests.

That’s why the fact you’re even asking that question means you’re viewing this entire thing incorrectly. Your mindset is that of a beta male with oneitis. (I didn’t say you are a beta male with oneitis. I said that’s your mindset.)

2. “Being some kind of tough guy and barking at her that you won’t hold her purse because you ‘aren’t her slave’ or something like that is stupid.”

That is not what I said to do. That is the exact opposite of what I said to do. As I said in the shit test article, I said do something like this:

Her: Will you hold my purse for a second?

Alpha Male 2.0: <big smile, relaxed, friendly tone of voice>Awww, you really think I’m going to hold your purse? You’re so cute.

That’s it. No barking, no orders, no defensiveness. Just nicely telling her you’re not going to do that. That’s it.

3. If she calls you out on being a dick, how do you handle it?

Just like I said in the shit testing article, agree with her. Here’s an example.

Her: Will you hold my purse for a second?

Alpha Male 2.0: <big smile, relaxed, friendly tone of voice>Awww, you really think I’m going to hold your purse? You’re so cute.

Her: Really? You won’t hold my purse for just a second?

Alpha Male 2.0: <smile, calm, chill tone of voice> Nope. I don’t do that.

Her: Wow, you’re being a dick.

Alpha Male 2.0: <smile> Yep!

As per the attraction article you need to read, she’s upset, but her attraction for you just shot upwards at the same time. Mission accomplished, even though she appears frustrated for a few minutes. That’s a good thing.

(As a side note, it’s important to realize that women calling you names is drama. Just calling you a dick and then moving on is fine, but if she keeps going with her bitching and/or insults past about 20 seconds, it’s time for you to soft next her. And remember, the reason for the drama is irrelevant.)

4. “So you should never help her with bags or when her hands are full? That’s a dick move.”

I am only talking about her purse. I am not talking about other bags. Sometimes it is perfectly fine, even a good idea to help her with other bags… and sometimes it’s not. It depends on the context.

There are two possible scenarios. One is if you’re both going somewhere for your own, individual reasons. The other is if she’s treating you like a beta-slave. In the first scenario, helping her hold her bags (not her purse!) is perfectly fine.

For example, Pink Firefly and I semi-regularly go grocery shopping together. We’re going with each other since we both need groceries. Since we have an OLTR Marriage, our finances are separate, so she pays for her groceries and I pay for mine. The point is, we go together because we both need to go.

We use the same shopping cart, but have separate bags. When we walk out to the car, since I’m almost a foot taller than her and weigh over 100 pounds more than she does, I happily volunteer to carry most of the bags, even if 80% of the bags are hers. This is a perfectly fine thing to do, particularly in a serious relationship. I love her and I want to help her out. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Now let’s look at a different situation. You’re playing a video game or working on your Mission when your girlfriend comes over to you and tells you she wants you to go to the store to buy makeup and girl clothes with her. You don’t need to go shopping for any reason, but you decide to go with her anyway because you’re a pussy.

While at the girly store, she fills several shopping bags full of girly shit, complains that her hands are full, and asks you to hold some, most, or all of the bags. Since her hands are clearly full, you stupidly use man-logic and decide it’s “okay” to help her out because you don’t want to be a “dick,” so you grab some, most, or all of the bags and follow her around the girly store like a little puppy. That is beta male shit and you’re blowing it big time.

In both cases she needs help with her bags, but in only once case was it not betaization.

The question you need to always ask yourself is “Who would hold her purse if you weren’t there? If she was alone?”

The answer is, she would. She would fucking figure it out like a normal adult. She would put her arm through the loop handle, or put the purse on the floor for a minute (oh, the horror!), or just figure it out. The only reason she’s asking you to hold her purse is that her beta-slave is standing right next to her.

The same goes for the tons of girly bags at the girly store. Who would hold all those fucking bags if she was shopping alone? The answer is, she wouldn’t fill up all those bags in the first place. But because you, her beta male pack mule is following her around the makeup isle like a pussy, she can load up all the bags she wants.

5. “Wait a minute, if holding a shopping bag is okay and holding a purse is not, then who would hold the shopping bag if you weren’t there? Why is holding a shopping bag okay but a purse not okay? It doesn’t matter; they’re both bags.”

Incorrect. If she asked you to try on a pair of jeans just for a minute, would you do it? Probably. If she told you to try on a dress for just a minute, would you do it? No.

Why? They’re both clothes, so it doesn’t matter. Right?

Wrong. Of course it matters. Men and women both wear jeans, but wearing a dress is something only women do. News flash, holding a purse is something only women do. Hell, even gay men don’t hold purses! If you’re saying that holding a purse for her for just a minute is no different than holding a shopping bag, then you need to explain the difference between wearing jeans and wearing a dress.

If you tried on a dress for her, even if for just a minute, even if no one else saw you besides her, what do you think happens to her attraction for you? It’s the same concept with a purse. It’s not as bad, but it’s the same concept.

A second difference is when I help out a woman holding some kind of shopping bag (and I only do this if I’m somewhere I wanted to go with or without her) I offer to do it, or I just do it without being asked. This is very different than a girl asking me to hold a purse or a bag and me complying.

6. “If she asks you to hold her purse for a second because her hands are full, that’s okay. What’s not okay is if she tells you to hold her purse for you while you’re both walking down the street.”

Incorrect. Holding a purse for her is not only betaization, but also emasculation, again, even if it’s “just for a second” and even if no one else sees you besides her. Her attraction will drop, at least a little. The context under why you’re holding the purse doesn’t matter. Neither does the duration. What matters is that she asked, and you complied.

7. “Just because she’s asking you to hold her purse doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a shit test.”

Correct and irrelevant. Even if it’s not a shit test, it’s still betaization and emasculation and will result in these things if you comply.

8. “Is holding or not holding her purse for a minute really such a big deal?”

Taken in complete isolation all by itself? No. The problem is frame and EFA is made up of literally hundreds of little things you do with her and/or refuse to do.

If she asks you to hold her purse and you do it because you’re just not thinking, I promise you that you’re doing various other things from time to time with her that are demonstrating beta male behaviors that are driving her attraction downwards. I’d bet $10,000 on it, and I’d be right. Bad frame, bad EFA.

Worse, if you comply with holding her purse because you’re scared she thinks you might be a dick or that things might be awkward, your mindset is beta (or you have oneitis) and you have more work to do.

9. “What if she has a good reason?”

Re-read items 4 and 5 above very, very carefully. She never has a good reason because the only time she would create a “good reason” is because you were there, standing right next to her. If she was alone, she would either figure it out herself or she wouldn’t have created the “good reason” in the first place. The reason her hands are so fucking full is because you’re there! If you weren’t there, they wouldn’t be that full!

10. “Won’t that be awkward if you don’t hold her purse when she needs help?”

Yes, for her. And that’s good. Yep, she’s going to feel a little awkward as she farts around with her purse for a few seconds (oh, the horror! a few seconds!) while you’re standing there with a smile on your face doing nothing. Her attraction for you will not drop (she might get frustrated for a minute, but she won’t lose attraction), she will learn to never ask you to hold her purse ever again (great EFA!), and your frame remains rock-solid. Win, win, win.

11. “Oh, c’mon. Is refusing to hold her purse for a second really going to positively affect her attraction to you?”

I have no idea whether or not you refusing to hold her purse will raise her attraction for you. It might or it might not, depending on many factors. But I know for sure her attraction for you won’t go down, and that’s what we’re trying to prevent.

I also know that if you do hold her purse for her, her attraction will go down, at least a tiny little bit, even if it’s “just for a second” and even if you think she has a “good reason” (which she does not; the only reason she’s created the reason is because you’re standing there).

Remember, a woman’s biology doesn’t change just because you are emotionally uncomfortable with something or because you think something makes sense to your own internal guy-logic. Whatever reason you can conjure up regarding why you should hold a woman’s purse, doing so will damage attraction, frame, and EFA, at least a little.

If you don’t care, then as always, feel free to ignore my advice and do whatever you like. But if these things are important to you, then for fuck’s sake, stop making excuses and don’t hold her purse.

132 Comments on “Why You Should Never Hold Her Purse (Yes, I’m Serious)

  1. I love her and I want to help her out. Nothing wrong with that at all.

    Really, BD???

    Really?!!

    It is not wrong per se, but it will make you break the first principle of relationship imperative.

    As I’ve always said and to quote it(again):

    “You can either love women or understand them
    — never both.”

    It’s the ultimate paradox.

  2. If she brought some heavier stuff in her second hand ( a bag with food, rollerblades ) is it ok to help her carry it home as you walk with her?

  3. What about when she come over to your place and you help her undress, take a purse and put it on the hanger?

  4. One favourite shit test is to get you to accept open-ended commitments. Holding the purse is a classic, although it can be anything. “Could you just hold this?”, “Could you watch my drink?” and then she fucks off for half an hour, and what exactly are you going to do about it? Just stand there right where she left you. Can’t leave, can’t do anything.

    Don’t be agreeable. Don’t just go along with stuff. I don’t know what the proper Alpha way to do it might be – not an alpha (or even close) myself, but after may years of being a sucker I have come to the point that my first, immediate reaction to a woman asking me to do anything at all is a firm “No”.

     

  5. <big smile, relaxed, friendly tone of voice>Awww, you really think I’m going to hold your purse? You’re so cute.

    Hmmm, this might feel out of character for me, and I try to make a point of picking ‘alpha’ moves that still correspond to my personality. What about “Uh, I don’t do this.” Her:”I’m sorry what/Excuse me?” Me:“I don’t hold purses/watch over drinks. That’s just not me, [her name]. Just the way it is” ?

  6. What if you’re both in the kitchen and

     

    A) she asks you to get a glass and something to drink for her

    or

    B) you get up, get a glass and a drink for yourself and she asks if you can bring one for her too.

     

    Is it okay to comply under these circumstances?

  7. It’s fine to love women, help them, want them to be happy, care for them. You just shouldn’t give a shit what they think ABOUT you. Doing good stuff for women is different from doing stuff because you want them to like you.

    This purse example cracks me up. Does it ever really happen? Most of the women I know guard their bags like hawks and wouldn’t let me near it if I asked. I can’t imagine them willingly handing it over and asking me to look after it.

  8. BD – Fun topic today! but still important nonetheless. I have 2 cents from my experience.

    In my mid-20s I had a GF who regularly insisted that I hold her shopping bags or purse (shopping bags of clothes & makeup that she bought for her, not groceries or anything big/heavy). After refusing several times, and getting into arguments where I still refused to cave in, I created a way to avoid this issue at all.

     

    Every time she’d ask me to hold her purse/bags, I’d 1) ask if her hands are full and if when she said yes 2) I’d quickly grab the bag and place it on the ground/throw it in the car – I’m a big, heavy-handed guy to begin with and highlighting my heavy-handedness  with her $500+ purses made her think twice before asking me this ridiculous question again.

    ^Typing it out I realize this is manipulative behavior and not 100% honest, but it was my answer to her after persisting. Your mileage may vary!

    *Note: this GF was an attractive asian girl who only had Asian BFs before. I’m black and white and far less compliant/traditional than other guys she had dated.

  9. Hmmm, this might feel out of character for me, and I try to make a point of picking ‘alpha’ moves that still correspond to my personality. What about “Uh, I don’t do this.” Her:”I’m sorry what/Excuse me?” Me:“I don’t hold purses/watch over drinks. That’s just not me, [her name]. Just the way it is” ?

    I think that is just fine but I could be wrong.  I just failed the purse test a few weeks ago, just days before BD posted the other article.  I have decided if that happens again, I am going to refuse and say something like, “What would you do with it if  you were by yourself?”

  10. It’s just a bag with stuff in it.

    If it were a backpack and you’d think of it differently, then I’m going to say you are over dramatizing this whole subject.

    I’m pretty sure my man has held my purse once or twice while in a crowd of people, because it would be stupid to leave in on the ground and risk someone running off with it.

    If that makes him beta, then I wouldn’t want him to be anything else.

  11. I’m repeating my comment from the other post but what I do when they ask is say “Sure…” then proceed to put it on the ground.

    It even gets a laugh sometimes.

  12. What if you’re both in the kitchen and

    A) she asks you to get a glass and something to drink for her

    or

    B) you get up, get a glass and a drink for yourself and she asks if you can bring one for her too.

    Is it okay to comply under these circumstances?

    I don’t believe it is ok to comply here.  I would like someone to provide the proper examples of non-compliant ways to handle both A and B in your scenario though, because I get this one too and I don’t have good answers for it yet.

  13. I’m repeating my comment from the other post but what I do when they ask is say “Sure…” then proceed to put it on the ground.

    It even gets a laugh sometimes.

    Curious what BD says about this, because technically you are holding/touching the purse for at least a second.

  14. I’m pretty sure my man has held my purse once or twice while in a crowd of people, because it would be stupid to leave in on the ground and risk someone running off with it.

    What would you do if you were on your own? I’m not a woman but I honestly can’t see any reason why you would need a man to hold it for you. Worst case it’s a little awkward.

    If that makes him beta, then I wouldn’t want him to be anything else.

    Well, there you go.

  15. I’m pretty sure my man has held my purse once or twice while in a crowd of people, because it would be stupid to leave in on the ground and risk someone running off with it.

    What would you do if he weren’t there?

    If that makes him beta, then I wouldn’t want him to be anything else.

    Well your sex drive is practically nonexistent anyway. So nothing to see here.

     

  16. As I’ve always said and to quote it(again):

    “You can either love women or understand them
    — never both.”

    Saying something that was wrong the first time over and over again doesn’t eventually make it right.

  17. It’s fine to love women, help them, want them to be happy, care for them. You just shouldn’t give a shit what they think ABOUT you. Doing good stuff for women is different from doing stuff because you want them to like you.

    Very good frame to handle most of this issue I think.

    Targeting specifically the issue with the purse. We need to ask ourselves “Why she asks you first to hold her purse” and 90% of time is “because you agreeded to go with her to shopping girly things” and THAT really kills your EFA and/or enmasculate you! Not simply hold a purse. Using the example of hers asking you to hold her purse because is filling her hands with stuff for hers, if she didn’t already realized you are pissed of due to stand and follow her instead of working in your mission or simply enjoying something for you also (I don’t think any Alpha, whatever version he is, enjoys going to the shopping center with her to buy girl stuff) I think you are a very good actor and an utter pussy for not say no to something you clearly don’t want to do. For that she has her girl friends and/or the orbiters. It’s clearly more helpful for her to going shopping with them, they serve better for her intentions than us.

    The only exception I would consider to join a woman in a shopping center is for buying sexy lingerie, and I don’t mean only bra and panties, I’m talking about babydolls, corsets, garters, etc. Hell I even go by myself and buy all of this alone for her to use it, but I would prefer she proactively buys these things and enjoy doing it. I assume that’s a checkbox I have for my LTR partners. So yeah, holding her purse in that context because she is filling her hands with these things is clearly a suggestive game for you two, the lingerie buying, not you holding the purse 🙂

    Of course all of these depends of the relation type. FB, no way, we shouldn’t even talk about this. MLTR, mmhh I have a hard time trying to figure out why going to shopping could be a possible scenario for a MLTR. OLTR on the other hand is clearly different and I think all of the above applies.

    We should really look the whole scenario. If you find the purse holding something really threatening for your EFA in some really specific situations then you really need to take a deep look to yourself even with the help of a profesional. I’m not saying you are a mess in your head, but really, some things are not that big you think they can be.

  18. Her: Will you hold my purse for a second?

    Wouldn’t it be better to not get her to ask that question at all? I don’t think I’ve ever had a chick ask me that. They just kind of assume that I’m not gonna hold their purse.

    And my answer if they were to ask me, is straight up “no.” When they ask why, I would say “cuz they aren’t my belongings.” One word or phrase is all you need.

    Then when they give me drama (any accusation that a chick makes that isn’t playful = drama), hard next. I leave, I text her after we’ve hung out saying there was no chemistry and good luck to her, then I delete her number.

    I think this would be better worded as “if you hold a chick’s purse, expect to wait a little longer for sex” or something. Cuz while I don’t think holding a chick’s purse gets her to hit the “no” button like an unsolicited dick pic would (I STILL can’t believe certain PUAs actually preach doing this), It certainly gets her to hit the “make him wait” button.

    What about watching a chick’s purse when she leaves or something? Is it a boyfriend behavior? That happens a lot with my girl. But then again we’ve already had sex a few times doe so I’m not trying to have sex with her for the first time or anything. Me watching her purse hasn’t affected her making me wait at all.

    Well your sex drive is practically nonexistent anyway. So nothing to see here.

    I wouldn’t say that about Ash. I’ve seen her comment on Bold And Determined, which is run by one of the most hypermasculine Alpha 1s I’ve ever encountered lol. Pretty sure her sex drive is higher than most of ours if she’s reading Victor Pride’s stuff.

  19. That was cool that you put that shit test in there for us LOL.

    Do not ever use the same shopping cart, this is almost as bad as holding her purse, did you hold hands while you were shopping too?

    Also do not go grocery shopping unless you need enough groceries to roll the cart out to your car, do you shop at Aldi’s or somewhere that charges you a quarter to use a cart???????????

  20. If you find the purse holding something really threatening for your EFA in some really specific situations then you really need to take a deep look to yourself even with the help of a profesional.

    Spoken like a true beta.

    I wouldn’t say that about Ash.

    Dude, she believes in total abstinence, except in traditional monogamous relationships. Do the math.

  21. Another question about compliance I’ve had for a long time:

    Let’s say you want to spend time at your place, but she has no driver’s license. When is it okay to pick her up and when do you turn into a compliant beta by being her taxi driver?

     

    What I did with my last MLTR was: I picked her up from the nearest train station, so she had to invest something as well. Is that a good solution, or are logistics 100% her problem?

  22. Spoken like a true beta.

    Yeah, sure. Because putting my beliefs on test to see how strong and right they are is the quintessential definition for a coward beta.

    Don’t make me laugh. You’re talking to the wrong guy.

  23. I literally never had that kind of problem after I took the red pill. Like never. Women don’t ask me to do anything…I just offer my help when I see fit (which is very rare) and want to be polite. And I’m a very gentle dude by nature.

    As a matter of fact, it’s quite the opposite. They usually offer me free stuff, like rides to the mall when I want to shop for clothes, groceries or eat and small treats like cakes, candies and the occasional cheap jewelry or decorative object to put on my condo.

    One of them even offered me a full dinner, followed by breakfast and lunch on the next day (she also did the dishes after everything).

     

  24. Yeah, sure. Because putting my beliefs on test to see how strong and right they are is the quintessential definition for a coward beta.

    No. Saying that “refusing to hold a woman’s purse means you need to see a psychiatrist” makes you a beta.

    Don’t make me laugh. You’re talking to the wrong guy.

    I was just about to say the same thing.

     

  25. I just take it saying, “Sure. What do you have in here?” I then commence to rooting through it.

  26. As a matter of fact, it’s quite the opposite. They usually offer me free stuff, like rides to the mall when I want to shop for clothes, groceries or eat and small treats like cakes, candies and the occasional cheap jewelry or decorative object to put on my condo.

    One of them even offered me a full dinner, followed by breakfast and lunch on the next day (she also did the dishes after everything).

    This isn’t good. These women are trying to betaize you by making you dependent on them. They want you to need them. That’s why they cook for you, clean for you, do your dishes, make your bed, etc… Then when you’re addicted, they start blackmailing you. And they eventually resent you for allowing them to turn you into their little baby. It gives them a sense of entitlement and causes them to expect you to let them get away with drama because “who else is going to pick up your socks?”

    An alpha male is an independent man who doesn’t need women for anything gender neutral. Not needing a woman for anything drives them crazy, as they realize that they have nothing to manipulate you with. Not even sex, since the relationship is non-monogamous

    My rule is this – If she does it for a child, she can’t do it for me.

    “The sexiest three words a woman will ever hear are – Stop. Mothering. Me.” – Frank Kermit

     

     

  27. No. Saying that “refusing to hold a woman’s purse means you need to see a psychiatrist”makes you a beta.

    You could quote the whole phrase instead to only what suits to you to argument. I said in some specific scenarios. Is not the purse holding what I questioning here, instead what put you there the first time. Obviously holding her purse if she needs to check her phone, for example, is a nono but if she has an accident for example, she breaks a high heal while walking, wouldn’t you hold her purse for example while she checks herself? Is that menacing A STUPID piece of [I don’t know the material what purses are made of. Leather?] in that specific and unusal scenario? While she may have a bent ankle you are standing there with a big smile saying “aaawww you’re so cute believing I will hold your purse while you’re in pain”.

    I wouldn’t surprise if you end with a hot coffee in your face, your number deleted and nexted. And not in a LSNFTE way.

  28. Language note: purse in American English is handbag in British Commonwealth countries. Inside the handbag is a purse containing mostly only money and cards in it. Men carry a wallet for the same purpose, but it’s smaller and looks different. Therefore, don’t hold her (money-)purse either.

  29. Looks like people are bending over backwards to find bizarre scenarios and being a bit literal minded about the purse example. It’s just the general principle that’s important. Just don’t do stuff because you’re scared she’ll be pissed off if you don’t. You don’t have to overthink it. If you start planning and rehearsing lines for the next time she asks you to hold her purse, she might pull something completely different and you may not have time to quickly check this blog to see what you should say. Have a bit of dignity, and the rest should fall into place.

  30. @Jack: You are wrong in this. I have/had high end women who do that stuff all the time. Cook for me, buy me regularly expensive stuff out of the blue etc etc. I rarely buy something for them maybe once or twice a year and normal stuff while they do it almost every month and they buy some expensive stuff.

    This is actually GOOD if your Frame is always “i don’ really need these stuff so dont expect anything in return ever”.

    You are right that they do this for betaization purposes but since you are OI your course of action is accept the gesture and have the above frame. Or say to them take this back I don’t need it which is more of a 1.0 frame.

    Since they know you are an “asshole” and nothing affects you they won’t turn it against you and even if they do you don’t care anyways so what is the problem?

    I see the problem in this only if you get addicted to it and get oneitis. But if you manage it correctly it is an overall win.

    Independence has nothing to do with it. Since you don’t need their cooking or gifts you are still independent. The problem comes when you “need them”.

    Let them do these stuff for you and let them THINK you will need them because of these gestures.

  31. Let’s say you want to spend time at your place, but she has no driver’s license. When is it okay to pick her up and when do you turn into a compliant beta by being her taxi driver?

    What I did with my last MLTR was: I picked her up from the nearest train station, so she had to invest something as well. Is that a good solution, or are logistics 100% her problem?

    If you’re so far away she needs a train, then it’s a logistics issue and not a compliance issue, and the burden is on you to have a suitable arrangement.

    I believe picking her up to go to your place is far from being a taxi, and BD seems to have done this multiple times. On the other hand, a guy on the internets once invited his crush for a photoshoot at a romantic location, she agreed but she came with a boyfriend, and ended up asking the guy to drive the BF to his place. Now that would be a taxi : )

    2 Vanilla Boy: LOL, and so true!

  32. @hey hey

    Exactly. Also I would add in the moment she gives you a gift you really would enjoy, right in that moment, or asap, you pound the shit out of her. It’s all the whole dynamic during centuries (guy buying/getting stuff for her trading for sex) turned around!

    Basically you are rewarding good behavior 🙂

  33. Another question about compliance I’ve had for a long time:

    Let’s say you want to spend time at your place, but she has no driver’s license. When is it okay to pick her up and when do you turn into a compliant beta by being her taxi driver?

     

    What I did with my last MLTR was: I picked her up from the nearest train station, so she had to invest something as well. Is that a good solution, or are logistics 100% her problem?

    I have a fb that went 2 years without her own car.  I would pick her up and take her back to my place sometimes and sometimes we’d go to hers.  Either way, I only ever drive her to my place for sex.  I think that’s fine.  It’s when later, she asks you to run her by the mall or a store or something, then you are being a taxi beta, but I don’t think it’s beta at all to go get what you want, take her back to your place, and devour lol.  Just make sure she knows that your taxi services only provide transportation from her place to your dick.  Now that she has a car, she drives to my place by the way.  So from that experience I’d say she never looked at me as her taxi or she’d still be wanting me to pick her up and bring her over.

  34. Oh Jack, you’re wrong on so many instances on your comment that I don’t even know where to start.

    Let’s just say you need a course on basic human interaction to understand the dynamics of what I (and other guys) do to reach those results.

    Women are feminine and caring by nature. Why would I not allow them to indulge me once in a while with their care? Just because I’m afraid of the scary “betaization ghost” LOL?

    Let them try to lock me in, who cares? I don’t mind that, quite the opposite in fact…it’s very flattering when a woman with many options do those things for me.

    They even may go away for a while if they get fed up with my lack of “reciprocation” on that regard. But they almost always come back for more.

    Anyway, if she leaves I’ll just keep doing what I do: fucking other women from my rotation and pursuing my mission and goals.

  35. As I’ve always said and to quote it(again):

    “You can either love women or understand them
    — never both.”

    It’s the ultimate paradox.

    1. No, it’s not the primary imperative of relationships; that would be to never take orders or drama from her (and never be monogamous).

    2. Please stop repeating this stupid statement on my blog unless you are willing to explain it fully and defend it (which you can’t).

    3. I don’t care about understanding women, only about long-term happiness.

    If she brought some heavier stuff in her second hand ( a bag with food, rollerblades ) is it ok to help her carry it home as you walk with her?

    I answered that in the article.

    What about when she come over to your place and you help her undress, take a purse and put it on the hanger?

    No.

    What if you’re both in the kitchen and she asks you to get a glass and something to drink for her

    If it’s after you’ve had sex twice and you’re following all the relationship rules, sure. Other than that, no.

    If that makes him beta, then I wouldn’t want him to be anything else.

    Precisely my point.

    I’m repeating my comment from the other post but what I do when they ask is say “Sure…” then proceed to put it on the ground.

    That’s fine, as long as you do it instantly. (Not walk 10 feet and then put it down.)

    If you find the purse holding something really threatening for your EFA in some really specific situations then you really need to take a deep look to yourself even with the help of a profesional.

    Factually incorrect. Holding her purse will damage your EFA, irrelevant of your feelings about it. Evidence that’s right in your face: go back up and read Ash’s comment (whose BF only held it “once or twice).”

    Wouldn’t it be better to not get her to ask that question at all?

    YES. Pink Firefly (as just one example; there are many others) has never asked me to hold her purse, because my frame and EFA very clearly tells her that I would never do such a thing.

    So yes, the real goal here is to never have her ask something like that in the first place. (This is a more advanced level of relationship game though.)

    Do not ever use the same shopping cart, this is almost as bad as holding her purse

    Using the same shopping cart is fine as long as the food is separate and she’s paying for her own stuff.

    Don’t overdo this shit into insanity.

    if she has an accident for example, she breaks a high heal while walking, wouldn’t you hold her purse for example while she checks herself?

    No, I would not. I would be too busy assisting her and helping her up than holding her stupid purse.

    Her purse can be on the ground for a 60 seconds. She’ll survive and the world won’t come to an end, I promise.

    Is that menacing A STUPID piece of [I don’t know the material what purses are made of. Leather?] in that specific and unusal scenario?

    What about a STUPID piece of fabric fashioned into a dress you wear for just 15 seconds? It’s just a piece of fabric, right?

    It’s about the meaning she attaches to that piece of leather, not the piece of leather.

    You’re making the classic mistake of assigning guy-logic to female imperatives.

  36. Dude, she believes in total abstinence, except in traditional monogamous relationships. Do the math.

    Bruh, she puts in a good word for Kyle Trouble of all people in her blog and that dude is like Roosh but without all the Alpha 1 crap. I highly doubt she’s like that. But then again she does read Bold and Determined, which DOES preach that kind of stuff, soooooo who knows. I haven’t seen anything in her discourse that showed me that she believes in that kind of stuff. Maybe I missed something.

    An alpha male is an independent man who doesn’t need women for anything gender neutral. Not needing a woman for anything drives them crazy, as they realize that they have nothing to manipulate you with. Not even sex, since the relationship is non-monogamous. My rule is this – If she does it for a child, she can’t do it for me.
    “The sexiest three words a woman will ever hear are – Stop. Mothering. Me.”– Frank Kermit

    Legit. Didn’t know you heard of Frank Kermit, JOTB! Good stuff mane. I also use “What are you, my mom?” Chicks love hearing that haha. That’s also a good rule “if she does it for a child, she can’t do it for me.” I’d like to also add to that: If I would do it for a child, I won’t do it for her.

    I’m going to bat for JOTB here peeps. He’s onto something. Favors should NEVER be the foundation or the life blood of a relationship. I’m not talking about something small like my gf wanting to get food after going to the bar so as a way of punishing her I make her buy me something, that’s different. I’m not even talking about common courtesy stuff like holding a door or something (everyone should hold the door for everyone within distance, that is COURTESY). Even us buying each other stuff is cool. For example, the gf had a gift card so she bought both of us drinks with it. So the next time we hung out, I bought both of us drinks. Hell even the purse thing is acceptable as long as you’ve already had sex with the chick.

    Those aren’t favors doe. Favors like always paying on “dates” (brotip: There are no such thing as “dates” to an alpha 2, just a quick meetup followed by sex or fooling around, if that’s possible. A “date” involves pressure. There’s no pressure in just chilling), you holding her purse, her driving you places, you cooking for her, her cooking for you, these are all things that make relationships break down because then the expectations get out of hand. So if those small favors become habits, its gonna mess with expectations. That’s how its always gonna be.

    So no matter how “cool” someone thinks it is that chicks hook him up with stuff, the fact is that he’s still letting chicks hook him up with stuff. It’ll become a habit before that person knows it. Its like the boiling frog. Oh yeah the water feels great now, but its gonna get too hot before you know it.

    Most of these monogamous relationships are either really boring or really symbiotic which almost always leads to toxicity. Depending on ANYONE to give you ANYTHING is not sustainable long term no matter who you are. Yes in short bursts its fine (even for a season its fine, like if you’re injured and need your partner to do stuff for you but that’s 2%).

    But if it becomes a habit (and even worse, part of a LIFESTYLE which is what monogamy defenders say) you’re taking power away from yourself. Additionally, you’re maliciously placing pressure on the partner to do certain things to make you satisfied which to me is just as bad as abuse. But yet we STILL think that’s the ideal for relationship which to me is pretty unsettling.

  37. Why would I not allow them to indulge me once in a while with their care?

    Can’t speak for JOTB, but this is not about “once in a while.” This is about “regularly.” There are some guys my age (mid 30s) who have no idea how to do chores: Laundry, washing dishes, (basic) cooking, because their moms did it for them until their 20s, then their gfs did it for them in their 20s, then their wives did it for them past their 20s. Now are those independent people? Of course not, they don’t know how to do shit for themselves. They are also the type to never risk and stay at that corporate job until they die because like with the women in their lives taking care of them, they expect their job (and then the state) to take care of them.

    One of the BEST things my folks did for me was teach me how to do chores and basic cooking.

  38. “You can either love women or understand them— never both.”

    Complete and utter bullshit.

    I have been privileged to understand women with all their features and foibles- including hypergamy, solipsism, war bride syndrome (hardwired tendency to transfer loyalty) alpha fucks/beta bucks, hardwired need to fitness test, and . . .

    I love them deeply.

    That idiotic line above is believed by alpha wannabes who won’t give up their fantasies about women. You can’t even begin to call yourself an Alpha 2.0 until you’re willing to accept and embrace the realities of women, along with every other reality in life.

     

     

  39. I want to make clear some assumptions about all this topic before continuing with this discussion. I already outlined them before but just to make sure we are on the same page.

    You already are in a MLTR (and a high-end type) with her. Even better if she is an OLTR. So you spend a considerable time of the week with her or even live together under the same roof. Someone said before about holding the purse and/or other boyfriend-ish acts with chicks they don’t have sex with yet. Dude! WTF! your first, only and utter goal is to get sex with this woman, and at least 2 or 3 times to even think starting to consider her FB. All the rest of the universe regarding this chick who you still don’t get sex with, should be vanished from your head.
    As I said I layout scenarios were if she was alone and the event that makes her so uncomfortable or rightly in danger to ask for her purse being held, if given that conditions, it could be really helpful if you were there with her and did what she asked. I’m not taking here to hold the purse while she checks her phone, tries new outfits (still don’t know why you would go to shopping with her, specially things for her, but whatever, your choice), goes to the restroom, starts to fill herself with bags, etc. I’m talking about assistance for a really odd situation in which if she’s alone it could be really hard for address it, and yes, probably she’d just put her purse on the floor.

    ———————

    So, having all of this before in consideration:

    @BD

    Factually incorrect. Holding her purse will damage your EFA, irrelevant of your feelings about it. Evidence that’s right in your face: go back up and read Ash’s comment (whose BF only held it “once or twice).”

    I think I can agree with you in one thing. It can damage your EFA but in a very tiny percentage (providing the two conditions above). 1% maybe? (and I’m being generous here with the number). It doesn’t even qualify for a scratch on your EFA. A vast mayority of your EFA must be built with another more significant things. And guess what. You’re pair bonding with someone (again, high-end MLTR or OLTR) you already said that complying to little and infrequent things in the same article you quoted before is required if you want this kind of relationship lasts a significant period of time. Hell, you even said you offer to carry the mayority of the grocery bags when going out with PF. Isn’t that white knight behavior? You said you love her, so it’s not love her to hold her purse, or whatever reasonable thing she ask you to hold, when she really needs that help? You even do it more frequently than the purse thing!

    So yes, the real goal here is to never have her ask something like that in the first place. (This is a more advanced level of relationship game though.)

    I understand. But I wonder if I want to invest precious time and effort in master that advanced level of relationship game (it sounds like a lot of effort) to just avoid being asked so infrequently to hold a purse for a seconds or maybe a minute in such odd scenarios.

    What about when she come over to your place and you help her undress, take a purse and put it on the hanger?

    (Your answer) No.

    So how do you want to underss her to initiate some sexy time? Specially the very first times you both have sex when you should initiate it almost always? (I agree I’m leaving a bit the conditions I stated before) It could be a little weird to try to unbutton and remove her shirt with her purse still on her shoulder. It doesn’t make any difference to tell her “leave your purse there” instead of just take it of by yourself. You still have a long way to go. Ok, not so long considering your skills 🙂 It won’t kill your EFA it doesn’t even cause a LMR if that’s your concern.

    Don’t overdo this shit into insanity.

    With all due respect, but I think you’re doing the overdo here. It reads like an Alpha 1.0 behavior here “I would never ever hold her purse under any circunstance, it burns my hands!! Aaarggh!!” Providing the conditions I stated before (I have the suspect you implied those, at least the first one) if you’re not the stuff carrying mule beta partner or orbiter, it can hardly be a damage to your EFA to hold the purse for a few seconds.

    It’s about the meaning she attaches to that piece of leather, not the piece of leather.

    She may even value her earrings and bracelets (the ones her dead grandmother gave her a few months before she passed away) more than her entire collection of Louis Vuitton purses (I had to google the name to spell it right). If she asked you to hold them for an emergency reason, you wouldn’t do that because you don’t hold that shit? It’s not that she asks you to use them.

    You’re making the classic mistake of assigning guy-logic to female imperatives.

    Right, because it doesn’t resist any further analysis. You already said you don’t care about understanding women, only about long-term happiness. I already agree with that in a great certain level. But unless you only want to stick with FBs and low-end MLTRs, you need some knowledge on women psyche, not a deep understanding, as you already demostrated before, if you want some long term pair-bonding. Again I’m not saying you comply everything she demands, not even a great part, not even in mundane things (if you don’t want to make the bed, by any reason, go with it) that goes against everything you teach in the Alpha 2.0 lifestyle. But you need to comply in little things for her, specially when the situation warrants it, if you want the relationship last long. And a purse doesn’t represent a menance. IT SHOULDN’T.

  40. Replicant – if you post hugely long comments WordPress will spam filter them, so keep them a little shorter if you don’t want the risk of losing them.

    I think I can agree with you in one thing. It can damage your EFA but in a very tiny percentage (providing the two conditions above). 1% maybe?

    Good. It damages your frame and EFA; we agree. I’m not going to argue over the percentage it does so because neither you or I will ever know that precise figure.

    So how do you want to underss her to initiate some sexy time?

    I rip her clothes off and throw them on the floor or the bed. I don’t daintily hang them up on a hanger for fuck’s sake. And yeah, I’ve had a woman complain about this once or twice. Good.

    It reads like an Alpha 1.0 behavior here “I would never ever hold her purse under any circunstance, it burns my hands!! Aaarggh!!

    What you said is not Alpha 1.0 behavior. Alpha 1.0 behavior is telling women what they should do. I’m only talking about what I do. The woman is free to do whatever she likes.

    She may even value her earrings and bracelets (the ones her dead grandmother gave her a few months before she passed away) more than her entire collection of Louis Vuitton purses (I had to google the name to spell it right). If she asked you to hold them for an emergency reason, you wouldn’t do that because you don’t hold that shit?

    I would hold them, since earrings are only used when placed in the ear. A purse is used when it is held. That’s what a purse is for.

    I would hold a dress too. But I wouldn’t wear it.

    You need to stop trying to weasel around this and explain to me why you so badly want to do something that you yourself admitted damages your EFA 1%. Stop trying to go out of your way to damage your EFA! That’s weird!

  41. Lucky for him I don’t regularly use purses..too fancy for me. Cutesy wallet clutches and tiny backpacks are more my style. Still I see why he should avoid even holding these nonpurses that have the same purse-purpose.

  42. @BD, thanks for addressing the comment issue, I’ll be more cautious the next times.

    I rip her clothes off and throw them on the floor or the bed. I don’t daintily hang them up on a hanger for fuck’s sake. And yeah, I’ve had a woman complain about this once or twice. Good.

    And ripping her clothes is an excellent way to set the tone in how the relationship will be, sexually speaking. But I suspect she will be holding her purse more times than times she likes her clothes be ripped off.

    What you said is not Alpha 1.0 behavior. Alpha 1.0 behavior is telling women what they should do. I’m only talking about what I do. The woman is free to do whatever she likes.

    You’re right. My mistake.

    I would hold them, since earrings are only used when placed in the ear. A purse is used when it is held. That’s what a purse is for.

    I would hold a dress too. But I wouldn’t wear it.

    I’m still have a hard time undestanding why you’re so reluctant about her purse and now with you holding a dress of her. You’re holding a dress for something and that something is what you need to check first. Frankly I don’t see the difference in holding a purse or a dress from your point of view.

    Getting back to the bent ankle example. You said you put the purse on the floor because you are worried about her. Nothing wrong with that. If she complains about it I would calmy say “I’m concerned about your ankle not your purse, that’s what is important to me right now” (and that would rise a not so little red flag to me). While you are in squat position checking her ankle if you put her purse in your knees…. hell! if you ever put it on your shoulder so you’re more confortable to do your work (I suspect you never do this and is ok, again, not a big deal [and yeah, putting the purse in the floor will be more confortable for you]) is that really a so big EFA killing issue or even the 1% to keep in mind while doing something for someone you really care about?

    Don’t answer me if you think I’m not be in the same page yet to understand your point of view. Obviously I’m not in your shoes, but I agree in many things you say. It just this little thing that I still don’t see any reason to avoid the purse in similar scenarios

    You need to stop trying to weasel around this and explain to me why you so badly want to do something that you yourself admitted damages your EFA 1%. Stop trying to go out of your way to damage your EFA! That’s weird!

    I’ve never said I BADLY wanted to do things that damage my EFA, even for 1%. I was talking about a very specific situation that in “sacrificing” (note the quotes) a little bit of an EFA (among the solid EFA montuain I must to have) for an ulterior well being, helping her when she needs your help, and in something we agree she needs help.

    I was re-reading your article and I stopped in the part when she asked you to joining her to shopping while you was relaxing and/or working on your Mission. Then in the shopping store she ask you to hold the purse. You know what? It doesn’t matter. The mere act of you breathing in the shopping store besides her already inflicted a deadly wound in your EFA. It decapitated it. Her asking you to hold the purse is merely a soft aftershock after a 10 grade in Richter scale cataclism (and I’m from Chile, we know about earthquakes) the kind of aftershocks that only remove a little of dust there and there because the main earthquake erased even with dog’s house. So yeah go ahead in holding or not holding the purse, it doesn’t matter. The moment you started to shut down your laptop you already screwed everything. Big time!

  43. @The Machinist

     

    “A man who pretends to understand women is badmanners. For him to really to understand them is bad morals.”

     

     

  44. Taken in complete isolation all by itself? No. The problem is frame and EFA is made up of literally hundreds of little things you do with her and/or refuse to do.

    If she asks you to hold her purse and you do it because you’re just not thinking, I promise you that you’re doing various other things from time to time with her that are demonstrating beta male behaviors that are driving her attraction downwards. I’d bet $10,000 on it, and I’d be right. Bad frame, bad EFA.

    This is the thing. For me the bag thing is nonexistent since I am rerely if ever in a situation with women where that would even be possible. But this thing was just an example clear. How do I recognize all the other things that I could be doing wrong that she asks me to do when I should say no?

  45. Let’s just say you need a course on basic human interaction

    Wow! Did you just call me retarded without actually saying I’m retarded? Clever boy!

    to understand the dynamics of what I (and other guys) do to reach those results.

    Is that how you see this? Reaching results? What results? Your women taking care of you like a little baby and giving you frequent lollipops? Is that what you call “basic human interaction?” Because it’s what I call “failing to grow up.”

    Women are feminine and caring by nature.

    Oh Jesus, here we go! So you’re going to let a woman be your mommy because it’s her nature to change diapers?

    I don’t know if you know this, but women want to go to bed with daddy, not the baby! A daddy who will demand that she become an independent big girl or he will spank her!

    I can’t tell you how many times a woman smiled and gave me those puppy dog “come fuck me” eyes after I told her to stop mothering me and insisted I can do something for myself like an adult, despite her wanting to do it for me. It was a test and I passed it!

    Then again, unlike you, I really dislike feminine women. Those girly girl types kind of make me want to puke. In order to turn me on, the woman must look physically feminine, but I prefer, and am very turned on by, masculine female personalities. Certainly not dominant ones (that’s a turn off as well, since I can’t stand being dominated), but independent ones.

    Independent women tend to be the horniest and have the highest sex drives. Feminine Disney girly girls, by contrast, tend to be slut shamers and more into conservative princess fantasies than, for example, group sex. I’ll pass.

    Why would I not allow them to indulge me once in a while with their care?

    1. Because it will cause your self-discipline to atrophy. It’s human nature.

    2. Because you’re not a baby that is supposed to be cared for by adults.

    3. Because it leads to blackmail and betaization.

    4. Because it will lessen the woman’s attraction for you, as she will begin to associate you with a child instead of with an attractive and dominant man.

    5. Because it’s just pathetic.

    Also, you said nothing about “once in a while.” You made it sound like these are regular habits.

    Just because I’m afraid of the scary “betaization ghost” LOL?

    You think it won’t happen because you have confidence in your own self-discipline. But stronger men have fallen on the path that you are currently treading. It’s human nature to become lazy when you are given welfare. That’s why socialism is so toxic, regardless of whether it comes from the government or from a woman with big tits.

    Let them try to lock me in, who cares? I don’t mind that, quite the opposite in fact…it’s very flattering when a woman with many options do those things for me.

    It’s more than that. They are chipping away at your emotional strength bit by bit. They are lulling you into laziness one dirty dish at a time. And then one horrible morning you will wake up and realize that you don’t have the strength or the discipline to do anything for yourself that you used to do, thus giving you an uncontrollable urge to hold on to this woman and not piss her off, since you don’t want to go back to picking up your own socks.

    And you won’t know how or why you ended up in this sorry state. Then you’ll remember what I said: Socialistic welfare is the killer of the human spirit.

    Oh yeah, and the more she does mundane shit for you that a grown adult should do for himself, the more she’ll resent you for letting her do it, start ridiculing you to her friends and calling you a baby, while she starts fucking an independent (read: real) man who actually has the personality of a self-sufficient adult, which is way more attractive!

    They even may go away for a while if they get fed up with my lack of “reciprocation” on that regard. But they almost always come back for more.

    Betaization and blackmail is only one side to this. The other side is that attractive alphas aren’t taken care of by women like babies. It’s pathetic.

    Anyway, if she leaves I’ll just keep doing what I do: fucking other women from my rotation and pursuing my mission and goals.

    Good for you. But be sure to maintain your discipline and adulthood. Do shit for yourself like a man, instead of making the women you have sex with your substitute mommies because “women are caring” or some shit!

    Just don’t be a baby. Women aren’t turned on by babies. That’s all I’m saying!

     

  46. One of the BEST things my folks did for me was teach me how to do chores and basic cooking.

    You are assuming here and still I let women do that stuff regularly when they want to.
    As I’ve said above the whole point is not regularly or once in a while but the frame you have.

    Since we are not talking about regular mono guys here, you are wrong about this just like Jack.

    Holding her purse is a small gesture that damages your frame. The comment above with undressing shows how men can do these things wrong. When you undress a woman do you have the time to take the purse and put it in the hanger? Wtf? Or even her jacket? Just throw it away while you suck her tits.

    But letting them cook for you, or mopping,or washing the dishes(without you asking and definitely not always) are gestures that are good for your frame. Mopping and washing dishes is not such a manly thing is it?(biologically speaking).

    Good frame is something that a woman will whine about to her friends and the SP will agree with her. Bad frame is something that a woman will brag about and the SP will disagree. Now attach this to situations(with the exaggeration of women in their statements).

    -She wants to meet only for sex. Isn’t he an asshole?

    -i buy him clothes all the time and he never buys me anything. Isn’t he an asshole?

    -i cook for him and wash his dishes and he never helps with that. Isn’t he an asshole?

    -He drives me whenever I want and wherever I want. Isn’t he such a good pet?

    -Yesterday I gave him my purse while I was doing my shoppings. Isn’t he a good pet?

     

     

  47. Is it ok to throw her over your shouler while she hold on to her purse?

    This is getting out of hand haha 😀 Seriously, looks like BD opened a can of worms with a seemingly innocuous topic.

    About ripping off the clothes, it’s good during the first couple of dates. I am talking about when you’ve been dating for a while and she just comes over for dinner/movie, etc. where you don’t want to escalate straight away.

  48. @Vsmile: is this even a scenario? I mean undress her when she gets in without escalating?

    If she wants some fresh air she can undress herself.

  49. I haven’t seen anything in her discourse that showed me that she believes in that kind of stuff. Maybe I missed something.

    She admitted on this very blog that she doesn’t believe in having sex at all, except within traditional monogamous relationships only. Ask her.

    Legit. Didn’t know you heard of Frank Kermit, JOTB! Good stuff mane.

    It made me absolutely sick when he got married! He even brags that he proposed on the first date. This is after he had foursomes on Valentine’s Day. All that genius wasted on societal programming.

    Then again, BD is getting married too. And that makes me a sad panda.

    That’s also a good rule “if she does it for a child, she can’t do it for me.” I’d like to also add to that: If I would do it for a child, I won’t do it for her.

    Absolutely correct! Guys shouldn’t make the mistake of becoming a woman’s beta bitch boy just because they learned that women treating them like babies is beta. Treating a woman like a baby is also beta. The key is mutual independence. You do nothing for her (because you’re not her provider slave) and she does nothing for you (because you’re not her baby).

    Just be two independent adults who enjoy fucking and sharing each other’s lives from a position of strength and independence!

    I’m not even talking about common courtesy stuff like holding a door or something (everyone should hold the door for everyone within distance, that is COURTESY).

    As long as it is coming from a gender neutral place. Never be chivalrous! Chivalry was invented by needy Catholic virgins, influenced by major blue balls, in the 14th century.

    Even us buying each other stuff is cool. For example, the gf had a gift card so she bought both of us drinks with it. So the next time we hung out, I bought both of us drinks.

    As long as it’s equal and not one sided.

    Hell even the purse thing is acceptable as long as you’ve already had sex with the chick.

    No. No, it’s not.

    So if those small favors become habits, its gonna mess with expectations. That’s how its always gonna be.

    Precisely.

    So no matter how “cool” someone thinks it is that chicks hook him up with stuff, the fact is that he’s still letting chicks hook him up with stuff. It’ll become a habit before that person knows it. Its like the boiling frog. Oh yeah the water feels great now, but its gonna get too hot before you know it.

    The argument against welfare in a nutshell.

    Depending on ANYONE to give you ANYTHING is not sustainable long term no matter who you are.

    Correct.

    But if it becomes a habit (and even worse, part of a LIFESTYLE which is what monogamy defenders say) you’re taking power away from yourself.

    This is the battle between capitalism and socialism. Being dependent on an external entity turns you into a helpless infant. By contrast, independence brings personal power and is the source of confidence and conquest!

    In short, cook for yourselves guys! And pick up your own damn underwear!

     

  50. I have/had high end women who do that stuff all the time. Cook for me, buy me regularly expensive stuff out of the blue etc etc. I rarely buy something for them maybe once or twice a year and normal stuff while they do it almost every month and they buy some expensive stuff.

    Sorry to hear that.

    This is actually GOOD if your Frame is always “i don’ really need these stuff so dont expect anything in return ever”.

    Just like POB, you have confidence in your own self-discipline. But get spoiled by Santa Claus too much and his band of midget slaves, and you’ll be quoting Karl Marx before you even realize you’re an addict.

    You are right that they do this for betaization purposes but since you are OI your course of action is accept the gesture and have the above frame. Or say to them take this back I don’t need it which is more of a 1.0 frame.

    But women doing all of these things for you will also decrease their attraction in the long run. Because they will eventually see you as incompetent.

    Since they know you are an “asshole” and nothing affects you they won’t turn it against you and even if they do you don’t care anyways so what is the problem?

    The problem is that I want women to see me as a self-sufficient man who doesn’t need welfare (read: slave care) from anyone! Independence, competence, and confidence are attractive features of alpha males.

    I see the problem in this only if you get addicted to it and get oneitis.

    Like I said to POB, it is human nature to become lazy when spoiled by welfare. Why put yourself in that tempting position even?

    But if you manage it correctly it is an overall win.

    Not if a woman starts seeing you as an incompetent baby who can’t even do his own laundry.

    Independence has nothing to do with it.

    It has everything to do with it.

    Since you don’t need their cooking or gifts you are still independent. The problem comes when you “need them”.

    You underestimate the habit forming tendencies of the subconscious mind. And it will be even harder to tell from the woman’s point of view whether you need it or not, since she’s giving it to you regardless. There is thus no practical difference from her point of view.

    At least make her remember that you don’t need it by doing these things for yourself at least 60 percent of the time. This way, you are showing her that you’re an independent alpha male who can’t be trapped or manipulated by her, and you’re raising her attraction for you as a result. Win/win.

    Women are addicted to men they can’t control. Don’t let her domesticate you. It’s not just about your independence. It’s also about her perception of you as a dominant man.

    Let them do these stuff for you and let them THINK you will need them because of these gestures.

    Terrible advice!

    If you let them think you’re a needy baby, their vaginas tend to become dry deserts.

     

  51. But letting them cook for you, or mopping,or washing the dishes(without you asking and definitely not always) are gestures that are good for your frame.

    Allowing her to exercise dominance over your territory stinks of domestication. Do you also allow her to redecorate the house?

    She’s exercising control and “mother power.” If you want her to think that she has domesticated you and broken your wild alpha spirit (even if she hasn’t), that’s your choice. But don’t be surprised when she needs to buy some lubricant before you have sex the next time.

    Do what you want. But I’ll be over here being a completely independent, self-sufficient alpha, and making sure that every woman understands that I need her for nothing.

    Mopping and washing dishes is not such a manly thing is it?(biologically speaking).

    LOL! Now you’re talking like a traditionalist alpha 1.0. I think you may have some conservative programming to undo regarding gender roles. Independence is manly!

    If mopping your own floor and doing the dishes bothers you so much because you think the 1950s people won’t approve, then just hire a cleaning lady, or a professional cook.

    If she is actually the type of woman who would be turned off by a modern man and wants a stereotypical caveman, the odds become very high that she is a Disney prude, and that’s not the type of woman I want in my bed or in my life in any case.

    Give me the free thinkers and sexual free spirits only.

  52. Your comments make zero sense. Did men of the 50s or great men of history cook for themselves? Were they babies? I’m sure Genghis Khan was such a beta and a baby when he let/obeyed women cook for him. And I’m sure his women were turned off by his immaturity.

    What you are saying is more of a beta attribute than an alpha. Putting this into a context  If you have a mission you don’t have time for trivial things like mopping the floor. It means you have much time in your hands and that’s beta.

    I love cooking and I’ll cook whenever I damn want. If a woman wants to cook for me she can be my guest. Afraid you will lose your Independence because of such gestures shows that you have no trust in yourself to keep your frame.

    Also women in our lives see us once a week at best. Not everyday just like your OLTR. So your regularly is not our regularly. Do we starve the rest of the days?

  53. If mopping your own floor and doing the dishes bothers you so much because you think the 1950s people won’t approve, then just hire a cleaning lady, or a professional cook.

    It doesn’t bother me. I do it. I said biologically speaking, not SP speaking. If she sees you mopping regularly her biology triggers the wrong signals. It’s the same thing as the purse.

  54. If she is actually the type of woman who would be turned off by a modern man and wants a stereotypical caveman, the odds become very high that she is a Disney prude, and that’s not the type of woman I want in my bed or in my life in any case.

    Apart from looks I dont screen. So we have vast differences. She can be as Disney as she wants. I have zero problems/drama in my relationships. And that’s been going on for some years.

    Most men will never follow your path of extensive screening so i don’t know why you bring your situation as an example or why is this a good thing for men. You have your character and you are happy with your situation. It’s not going to work for the 99% of men. It’s like the situation of the man who loves being only with women who like peeing on him.

    So this comment of yours is irrelevant.

  55. Thx for writing the article, point 5, 6 and 8 drive it home for me, especially 8.

    I used to think that OI means we shouldn’t give a fuck about the minutiae of a relationship. But you’re right, a lot of little mistakes may add-up and harm our frame. I will ask myself ”Does a man usually do that?” when encountering controversial situations from now on. The word ”Never” is a bit harsh though, like someone said above, temporarily sacrificing a little bit of manly frame sometimes might be necessary and worth it.

    I would hold them, since earrings are only used when placed in the ear. A purse is used when it is held. That’s what a purse is for.

    I would hold a dress too. But I wouldn’t wear it.

    This is confusing, what does the stuff’s function get to do with whether we can hold it or not? Personally, I believe holding a girly dress is a bigger no-no than holding a purse.

  56. It doesn’t bother me. I do it. I said biologically speaking, not SP speaking. If she sees you mopping regularly her biology triggers the wrong signals. It’s the same thing as the purse.

    I have never mopped the floor in front of a woman.

    Apart from looks I dont screen. So we have vast differences.

    Yes. I prefer high sex drive women and sexual free spirits only. But if you want to sleep with the mainstreamers, be my guest.

    Most men will never follow your path of extensive screening

    First of all, you have no business or authority to speak for “most men.” You have zero clue what “most men,” or for that matter, any man who isn’t you, will or will not do.

    Second of all, “extensive screening?” I have a good idea of what type of woman she is usually by the end of the first date. It’s not that hard to pick up the signals once you are experienced with it.

    so i don’t know why you bring your situation as an example

    Because my situation and my experience is all I have. We all speak from our own situations to make it easier for others to understand where we’re coming from. You do it too.

    or why is this a good thing for men.

    I explained why it’s a good thing in all of my comments here. But hey, if you are a thrill of the hunt guy who likes seducing Muslim women, knock yourself out! Just watch out for bombs.

    You have your character and you are happy with your situation. It’s not going to work for the 99% of men.

    You have zero authority, zero basis, and zero right to arrogantly speak on behalf of 99 percent of men! Maybe stick to speaking for yourself only before you embarrass yourself further!

    It’s like the situation of the man who loves being only with women who like peeing on him.

    What an absurd comparison! You really do live in a sexually conservative bubble if you actually think that the women I sleep with are that exotic! I feel very sorry for you! You’ve obviously never experienced the secret society if you think sexually liberated women are as rare as women who like peeing on men!

    Pathetic! Seriously, how sexually conservative are you? Are you a foreigner?

    So this comment of yours is irrelevant.

    Your comment is breathtakingly arrogant, speaks for 99% of men whom you have no right to speak for, and betrays a shocking lack of experience with sexually liberated women, as evidenced by you comparing them to exotic women with unnatural fetishes!

    Do you live in Saudi Arabia or something? The women I sleep with are EVERYWHERE! If you think women who like sex are as rare as women who like to pee on you, you have a ton of anti-sex cultural programming to get over!

     

     

     

  57. I sleep with mainstreamers and high sex drive women alike. High sex drive women usually are FBs and are not suited for anything more.

    I can speak with all the authority I want. You are a minority of the minorities.

     

  58. You didn’t even understand my comment if you think I compared the two as you present it.

    I said your setup ONLY going for crazies and high sex drive women and excluding the rest is not something most men will follow. And your setup does not mean more happiness for men. It is just only for you and your character.

    I prefer any woman who I like externally, paves the way for sex easily(and you know there are a lot of hot mid to low sex drive women who will go to bed with you easily), gives me zero drama and has sex with me when we meet.

    You on the other hand are missing hot women just because they are mainstreamers for you and mid sex drive women. Not because they are trouble on the road to sex.

    You have your own preference. Don’t present it like it’s the holy Grail. It’s not. And there are points who are against you. Mainly the extensive screening. You are tossing away a huge chunk of women something that most men wouldn’t have. Even hardcore alphas. Just because they are not high sex drive women? Ridiculous.

     

  59. She admitted on this very blog that she doesn’t believe in having sex at all, except within traditional monogamous relationships only. Ask her.

    I’m not definitively disagreeing or anything, I’m just in the dark about it. I’ll check out more of her blog and see if what you are stating is a common thread in the stuff she writes.

    It made me absolutely sick when he got married! He even brags that he proposed on the first date. This is after he had foursomes on Valentine’s Day. All that genius wasted on societal programming. Then again, BD is getting married too. And that makes me a sad panda.

    While I do agree that it is weak sauce, since I think marriage is antiquated, I say let them do their thing. I’m not either of their daddies, so why should I have much emotional stake in their decisions. I never understood why you have so much emotional stake in stuff like this.

    Never be chivalrous!

    Legit. Chivalry is what caused this shit storm to begin with. But its like I said, I’m courteous to everyone no matter what they look like. I’ll hold a door for a 400 lb obese taxi driver as well as the hot cheerleader chick. Granted, I may use the gesture as an opportunity to hit on the chick, but that’s just a situational icebreaker and has nothing to do with chivalry.

    And on this topic I’m not one of those needy omega PUAs with Asperger’s Syndrome (Read: Closet Faggots who read Return of Kings) who don’t act courteous towards other dudes at all and who try to act all cute by acting courteous towards chicks but then taking back the action at the last second. I have seen this in the local joints that I shop at and at my local casino. Makes everyone cringe or shake their heads real slowly. Alpha males don’t play mind games. They are either polite and courteous to everyone (Alpha 2) or courteous to no one (Alpha 1). PICK ONE.

    As long as it’s equal and not one sided.

    Yeah that’s how it is more than half of the time. But I still follow “whoever invites, pays.” And like BD, its usually never more than $25 for the drinks/food I get for the chick. And it still leads to sex. AND this is with mostly 33+s. AAAANNND this is with me telling her I’m in for an open relationship right out of the gate. My line (and yall can steal this) is “I just don’t like it when someone pressures someone else to do something. It’s not right, ya know? So let’s not pressure each other. Good company and good sex, that’s all I want. Is that something you’d like?” Say that last line very coyly and suggestively.

    It IS an all or nothing line, a swing for the fences, but its good cuz then you don’t waste time.

    No. No, it’s not.

    I will still admit there’s a huge gray area there, but holding the chick’s purse (or in my case watching it while she goes to the bathroom, don’t know if there is a difference?) has never prevented me from having future sex with her if I have already had sex with her before this happened.

    Now holding/watching the chick’s purse BEFORE sex? That’s gonna get her to mash the “make him wait” button. Doing some awkward PUA thing and holding the purse but then going “Alright, but its a dollar per second” or some weaksauce gay shit like that will make her mash the “no” button.

  60. does jack outside the box work for you black dragon? personally if I had a question I would want your opinion. not some wanna be.

  61. does jack outside the box work for you black dragon? personally if I had a question I would want your opinion. not some wanna be.

    He is just a crazy over-compensating weirdo. Don’t mind him.

  62. Now holding/watching the chick’s purse BEFORE sex? That’s gonna get her to mash the “make him wait” button. Doing some awkward PUA thing and holding the purse but then going “Alright, but its a dollar per second” or some weaksauce gay shit like that will make her mash the “no” button.

    I see the difference here between holding and watching the purse. If she says “can you please watch my purse while I go to the bathroom?” when we are on a date, seated on a table, I’d say “sure, go” while I check my phone (and also I’d probably type some notes for the date, feedback if you are working on your system). If she asks “Can you HOLD my purse please?” then all my previous conditions apply. Holding a purse is a different story.

    Now, generally speaking, women go to the bathroom with their purses on, typically to apply some make-up, and doing many girly things. For them going to the bathroom is a process or even a ceremony by itself. And also notice that is veeeery rare that she leaves her purse with some guy who just met 1 or 2 hours before, even if their pussies are soaking wet. We already know how they value their purses and the content inside them so do you really think they’ll expose themselves to abandon their purses to a guy who can sniff inside them? I don’t say you do this but unfortunately the desperate Omega idiots get more “press and shows in TV” than the normal guys who only want to spend a good time and enjoy.

  63. Fun Fun read BD, I have an different but related topic I’d like to introduce here. This is about my situation with my current MLTR.

    I’m an American living in Mexico City and my primary girl (MLTR) is exceptionally good at finding fun things to do in and around the city (nature reserves, hikes, VR/AR demo events, music festivals) Where as I’m more… boring. I Mostly just work, workout and pickup girls.

    About half the time we hangout she comes over for sex/netflix and the other half she finds something that we both will enjoy doing (in a year she’s never asked me to go shopping or some girly shit like that). I go along for these trips about 4/5 times because she’s damn good at finding things we’ll both enjoy.

    Do you think there is any betazation going on with her making plans this often (~50%)?

    I know from my guy friends that the one who comes up with plans most often does become the group leader.

     

    My other girls (all FBs)  just come over for sex and maybe I’ll cook them lunch or dinner. I don’t ever take them out.

     

     

  64. He is just a crazy over-compensating weirdo. Don’t mind him.

    Vsmilex – You are in violation of Rule Number One at this blog. Do not make any ad homiem personal attack against anyone at this blog no matter how crazy the comments they make (and yes, Jack’s comments are often crazy). Attack statements, not people. Last warning.

  65. How do I recognize all the other things that I could be doing wrong that she asks me to do when I should say no?

    Ask yourself –

    1. Is this something only a woman would do?

    2. Is this something only an platonic orbiter would do?

    3. Is this betaization? Or just a normal human asking for help from another normal human?

    Is it ok to throw her over your shouler while she hold on to her purse?

    Haha only if you’re slapping her in the ass while you’re doing it.

    The word ”Never” is a bit harsh though, like someone said above, temporarily sacrificing a little bit of manly frame sometimes might be necessary and worth it.

    As I’ve always said, if you purposely choose to violate my advice and thus purposely choose to damage your frame and EFA, then when you have problems in the relationship because of it (and you will) you have only yourself to blame.

    Purposely creating problems in a relationship is never “worth it.”

    Not to me.

    This is confusing, what does the stuff’s function get to do with whether we can hold it or not?

    Hold a piece of clothing you’re not wearing is fine, provided you’re in the correct context I explained in the article.

    Personally, I believe holding a girly dress is a bigger no-no than holding a purse.

    As I keep repeating, it doesn’t matter what you personally believe. We’re taking about what she thinks, not what you think.

    does jack outside the box work for you black dragon?

    Do you seriously think I would hire someone with such little emotional control and such strong Alpha 1.0 needs? I’ve told Jack for years that he needs to go start his own blog and he still hasn’t done it (always a new excuse).

  66. I have to say I disagree with Jack’s viewpoint on a woman doing things for a man, and it decreasing her attraction to him long term.

    Could there be situations where that becomes an issue? Yes. When he starts expecting those things from a woman, stops taking care of them himself (because hes more than capable without her help), it could get out of hand, absolutely.

    From personal experience, I can tell you how much it INCREASED my attraction to do things for my guy. I tend to be an interesting blend of both strong independent woman and submissive. It made me very happy to do things for him when I had free time, which stemmed from a desire to please him. He didn’t fawn over my efforts, but made sure I knew they were appreciated now and then. Sometimes that was verbal affirmation, sometimes that was a very hot sexual appreciation session. All of it drove my desire to further continue to please him however.

    Did he stop cooking for himself, doing his laundry, and keeping his place clean? Absolutely not. He didn’t NEED me to do it for him. It was my pleasure to do it, and we both benefited from it very nicely.

  67. I have girls come over for sex who want to hold onto the damn thing so I grab it and toss it to the side. Like god damn what the fuck is taking so long, lose the fucking purse and bend your ass over the couch.

  68. Well, cooking is a special case. Making good food is creative and sexy. Eating with other people and preparing food is a highly social act. No way am I gonna count cooking as a “chore.” I’m happy to cook something good for a woman and I’m happy to eat what she cooks for me.
    Mopping floors and washing clothes is another universe. No woman I’m having sex with is going to be doing those things for me, nor me for her.

  69. Hey Caleb,

    In my opinion I think there’s a bit more nuance to this situation. I think it’s less about the purse itself and more about your attitude towards holding the purse.

    I’ll give an example: I have a friend who’s a natural alpha, who I’ll call Jim. He’s dating a girl who has these two gay little dogs, but they’re very well-behaved and playful. Jim loves dogs, but doesn’t own one because he travels too much to take care of one. When the girl goes out of town, he’ll volunteer to take care of her dogs because he loves playing with them so much and he doesn’t have a dog of his own. Jim’s friend Rob sees this and calls Jim a pussy, arguing that his girlfriend’s going to lose attraction for him because he’s doing something effeminate like taking care of his girlfriend’s dogs and picking up their poop.

    The thing is: Rob hates dogs and Rob hates picking up dog poop. Rob doesn’t understand that Jim  enjoys playing with and taking care of the dogs, and he also doesn’t mind picking up dog poop. Jim’s totally outcome independent. If Jim’s girlfriend, subconsciously, was agreeing with Rob and thinking, “Wow Jim’s such a pussy for taking care of my dogs,” Jim would probably be like, “Alright that’s fine, you’re welcome to leave if you want, and take your dogs with you. I don’t care.”

    If Rob were in Jim’s shoes, and he was taking care of the dogs, he’d be doing it just for the sake of appeasing his girlfriend since he hates dogs. And that would be both beta and outcome dependent. In other words, even though Rob’s behavior would be identical to Jim’s, his attitude about the whole thing would be completely different, and that’s what matters.

    When I read this post, I can’t help but feel like Rob and Caleb are very similar here. Caleb views purse-holding as an affront to his masculinity so he refuses to do it. If Caleb were to hold a woman’s purse, he’d be doing something he doesn’t want to do, which would be an outcome-dependent beta decision.

    Now, we could debate whether not it’s rational of Caleb to believe that purse holding is ALWAYS an affront to one’s masculinity, and consequently your girl will ALWAYS feel a dip in attraction, but that’s besides the point. If a girl asks me to hold her purse, and I’m not doing anything, I don’t mind holding her purse because I don’t really give a shit about how that could be misconstrued because I’m outcome independent. If her subconscious mind is thinking, “OMG he’s holding my purse! What a pussy!” then she’s more than welcome to leave me. Doesn’t bother me, I know she’ll be back anyway since I don’t care if she leaves or not.

    But considering that’s never happened, I’m going to continue to not worry about the consequences of holding a woman’s purse for a few seconds.

  70. @ Jack in the Box

    If you can’t have a woman cook, clean, mow your yard, do your laundry, spit shine your dick (i could do that myself), and jack you off with both hands like shes churning butter (could do myself) without getting addicted to the point where you can’t send her packing in a split second, you ain’t alpha.  I have them spoil me like a mother fucker and they get nexted just the same when they give me an ounce of drama.  Then I go back to doing that shit myself.  And they know it.  But I get your point to an extent.  You can not be dependent on a woman or they will own your ass.

  71. It doesn’t matter whether Jim enjoys playing with the dogs. Betas might also enjoy showering their crush with gifts and hiring orchestras to sing serenades. What matters is whether the girl sees it as unmasculine. If she does, Jim has created problems for himself. That’s all.

    And women do tend to see purse-holding that way.

  72. Caring about whether or not she perceives your behaviors as masculine or effeminate is outcome dependent behavior IMO. I do what I want and if women think less of me for it, then they’re free to leave and be replaced by women who don’t think less of me for it

  73.  

    Caring about whether or not she perceives your behaviors as masculine or effeminate is outcome dependent behavior IMO. I do what I want and if women think less of me for it, then they’re free to leave and be replaced by women who don’t think less of me for it

    I agree. If you’re constantly worrying about whether what you’re doing looks masculine to her or not, you might almost as well be worrying if she thinks you’re a nice guy or not. Both times, you’re thinking too much about what someone else thinks of you.

     

  74. I have a friend who’s a natural alpha, who I’ll call Jim. He’s dating a girl who has these two gay little dogs, but they’re very well-behaved and playful. Jim loves dogs, but doesn’t own one because he travels too much to take care of one. When the girl goes out of town, he’ll volunteer to take care of her dogs because he loves playing with them so much and he doesn’t have a dog of his own.

    That is perfectly fine because he loves dogs. If he would watch those dogs anyway, regardless of girlfriend or not, because he loves dogs, and his girlfriend clearly knows this, then it’s perfectly fine. His friend Rob calling him a pussy is completely wrong. (Obviously he could go overboard with it, like he watches her dogs all the fucking time whenever she asks, but you know what I mean.)

    Nothing in your comment disagrees with anything I’ve said here.

    I do what I want and if women think less of me for it, then they’re free to leave and be replaced by women who don’t think less of me for it

    Perfectly fine attitude provided you don’t care about the length of your relationships, as I’ve said before.

    Men who don’t mind nothing but short-term relationships do indeed have more freedom in terms of what they can and can’t do in their relationships, yes.

    If you’re constantly worrying about whether what you’re doing looks masculine to her or not

    Do you honestly think I “constantly worry” about this?

    I don’t even think about it. It’s just who I am.

  75. 1) Not holding a woman’s purse is so basic, an article should not be needed.

    2) However, a lot of men are shoulding all over themselves, given the comments – especially the ones trying to create a one in a 5 billion chance hypothetical.

    There are an infinite number of situationally appropriate ways to say “no”, but at the end of the day the answer is still the same.

  76. Hey Caleb,

    Thanks for the response. Glad we’re more or less on the same page.

    Perfectly fine attitude provided you don’t care about the length of your relationships, as I’ve said before.

    Men who don’t mind nothing but short-term relationships do indeed have more freedom in terms of what they can and can’t do in their relationships, yes.

    Then I guess my question is: why, in this instance, would this shorten the length of my relationships? Are you saying that merely being confident and outcome independent isn’t sufficient for longer relationships? Is masculinity (or, more specifically, ‘traditional’ masculinity) a requirement for longer relationships, even if one is confident and outcome independent?

  77. This sounds like some overly anal, outcome dependent shit. While I can agree that obeying her commands and carrying her shit like a pack mule is not good, the overemphasis on “man don’t hold purse” is retarded. If you want to hold something for her, do it, or don’t. It really shouldn’t matter as long as you aren’t doing it from the standpoint of “oh shit her attraction/betaization levels are gonna go up/down/left/right if I do/don’t do this one stupid thing!” Who gives a fuck?

    By overemphasizing the purse as some sort of lava, you’re sacrificing the main goal of becoming outcome independent for some silly macho bullshit.

  78. This sounds like some overly anal, outcome dependent shit.

    Scroll up just one screen and read my comment answering that.

    And dude, for the second time, I’m getting tired of your angry, ranting comments on my blog calling everything you read “bullshit.” This is the last time I’m going to respond to you unless you actually start making real points without the anger. You’re a seriously angry guy; for fuck’s sake, calm down.

    why, in this instance, would this shorten the length of my relationships?

    Because you can go too far with Alpha if your objective is long-term relationships.

    If your attitude is, “fuck it, I’m going to do literally whatever I want at all times and if she hates it that’s her fucking problem I’ll just next her” then that’s great! It’s a great attitude to have and I’m far more supportive of that attitude than the guys in this thread (and the other) trying to defend beta behaviors.

    At the same time, you’re going to have a hard time maintain a many-years-long and consistent relationship with a high-end MLTR or OLTR if you pay zero (or near-zero) attention to her logistical and emotional needs. Note again how I carry Pink Firefly’s shopping bags for her. Just imagine if I always said to her, “I’m not carrying your shopping bags. I don’t do that. Carry your own bags.” every time we went shopping.

    If, and only if, your objective is long-term relationships (it is always mine) it is possible to overdo the Alpha. If you want (or don’t mind) shorter-term relationships or FBs, you can be as Alpha as you want! Go for it!

  79. Because you can go too far with Alpha if your objective is long-term relationships.

    If your attitude is, “fuck it, I’m going to do literallywhatever I want at all times and if she hates it that’s her fucking problem I’ll just next her” then that’s great! It’s a great attitude to have and I’m far more supportive of that attitude than the guys in this thread (and the other) trying to defend beta behaviors.

    At the same time, you’re going to have a hard time maintain a many-years-long and consistent relationship with a high-end MLTR or OLTR if you pay zero (or near-zero) attention to her logistical and emotional needs. Note again how I carry Pink Firefly’s shopping bags for her. Just imagine if I always said to her, “I’m not carrying your shopping bags. I don’t do that. Carry your own bags.” every time we went shopping.

    If, and only if, your objective is long-term relationships (it is always mine) it is possible to overdo the Alpha. If you want (or don’t mind) shorter-term relationships or FBs, you can be as Alpha as you want! Go for it!

    That makes sense; I agree with all that. I was asking if my relationships will be shortened as a result of holding a woman’s purse, even though I genuinely don’t mind holding it at all. To me, it’s just a purse and not different from any other bag, and I don’t feel emasculated or effeminate at all in helping her with it (however, I can understand why some people would view it as emasculating).

    Are you saying that I should feel emasculated for holding her purse and that consequently I should stop holding her purse if I want my relationships to last longer?

  80. Are you saying that merely being confident and outcome independent isn’t sufficient for longer relationships?

    Are you saying you don’t need to perform at least some actions (or refrain from some actions) to improve the quality and/or length of the relationship?

  81. Are you saying you don’t need to perform at least some actions (or refrain from some actions) to improve the quality and/or length of the relationship?

    No that’s not what I’m saying. I agree with Caleb in that women are going to be more likely to leave you sooner if you completely ignore their needs for the sake of doing whatever the fuck you want.

    The question is whether or not holding a purse is an issue if you don’t view it as an affront to your masculinity; and if you don’t view it as an affront to your masculinity, are you supposed to?

  82. I was asking if my relationships will be shortened as a result of holding a woman’s purse, even though I genuinely don’t mind holding it at all.

    Yes. That’s the entire point of this article.

    We could argue if it makes it 1% shorter or 5% shorter or whatever, but the answer is yes.

    To me, it’s just a purse and not different from any other bag

    For the third time in this thread (sigh), it doesn’t matter what you think. What she thinks in this scenario is what matters.

    Are you saying that I should feel emasculated for holding her purse and that consequently I should stop holding her purse if I want my relationships to last longer?

    No on the first part, yes on the second.

    I don’t care what you feel because what you feel is completely irrelevant.

    I’m saying that if you want the relationship to A) last as long as possible and B) last in a low-drama, low-betaization state, there are certain things you must do and not do, regardless of your feelings about them.

    It’s very simple.

  83. You’re a seriously angry guy; for fuck’s sake, calm down.

    I’m not angry at all. I understand that typing may come across differently than in person conversation, but I just happen to swear a lot. Not such a big fucking deal, eh? Lighten up. I don’t generalize your personality to “angry guy” just cause you happen to use swear words in your articles.

    You should read a bit about psychological biases, especially this common one:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

  84. I’m not angry at all. I understand that typing may come across differently than in person conversation, but I just happen to swear a lot.

    Incorrect. I swear a lot too but I’m happy. I scanned through your past comments. They’re angry, because you are. The swear words have nothing to do with it.

    Lighten up.

  85. I feel like this would make a good BD Debate topic lol

    Yes. That’s the entire point of this article.

    We could argue if it makes it 1% shorter or 5% shorter or whatever, but the answer is yes.

    Fair enough. Personally I file it under the 2% rule and don’t worry about it. I really don’t think my relationships are getting shortened at all by something as trivial as this but we’ll have to agree to disagree.

    For the third time in this thread (sigh), it doesn’t matter what you think. What she thinks in this scenario is what matters.

    But why do you think that she’s going to think poorly of me when I don’t think anything of it? I’d argue that the fact that I don’t give a shit is attractive enough to counteract the fact that she might consider it emasculating. Aren’t you assuming that these women all view purse-holding as emasculating? Or that it’s a deliberate shit test? To quote your original post:

    I also know that if you do hold her purse for her, her attraction will go down, at least a tiny little bit, even if it’s “just for a second” and even if you think she has a “good reason” (which she does not; the only reason she’s created the reason is because you’re standing there).

    How do you know this? I can understand how caving in and holding her purse when you don’t want to can lower her attraction, but how can you make such a bold claim like this? This seems like a completely unfalsifiable claim which you have no way of proving and I have no way of disproving, and therefore it’s not something we can draw any meaningful conclusions from.

    No on the first part, yes on the second.

    Ok perfect. Thanks for the clarification; this is exactly what I was looking for.

    I think ultimately this discussion hinges on that claim I just quoted– and considering neither of us can prove or disprove what’s going on in a woman’s mind when you hold her purse, for whatever reason, I think at this point we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

    Also I realize I’m being nitpicky as fuck, but I figured it was appropriate given the subject of this blog post 🙂

  86. But why do you think that she’s going to think poorly of me when I don’t think anything of it? I’d argue that the fact that I don’t give a shit is attractive enough to counteract the fact that she might consider it emasculating. Aren’t you assuming that these women all view purse-holding as emasculating? Or that it’s a deliberate shit test? To quote your original post:

    I think its about lessening her attraction.  Beta males gladly take the purse and hold it.  For you to refuse is unusual or different than your average beta male.  It maybe isn’t the biggest shit test of them all, but there’s got to be some reason why women always do this.  And you’ll stand out or at least not be the same as all the other compliant beta males that held her purse in the past.

  87. I feel like this would make a good BD Debate topic lol

    No one would have the balls to debate me on this in a featured debate post.

    I really don’t think my relationships are getting shortened at all by something as trivial as this

    Re-read item #8 in the article.

    But why do you think that she’s going to think poorly of me when I don’t think anything of it?

    She tells you to wear one of her dresses for five minutes and you do it because you don’t think anything of it. Would it affect her attraction and/or betaization for you in any way?

    I’d argue that the fact that I don’t give a shit is attractive enough to counteract the fact that she might consider it emasculating.

    What she thinks (what kind of man holds my purse for me) is more important than what you think.

    How do you know this? I can understand how caving in and holding her purse when you don’t want to can lower her attraction, but how can you make such a bold claim like this? This seems like a completely unfalsifiable claim which you have no way of proving and I have no way of disproving, and therefore it’s not something we can draw any meaningful conclusions from.

    It’s true that none of us are going to hire any researchers to follow multiple couples around 24/7 and notate the amount of drama and length of the relationship of the men who hold purses as opposed to men who do not. I just know a hell of a lot of about women’s thought processes and which behaviors kick in betaization and/or reduce attraction. I know I’m right about this, even if it’s 1% or 5% or whatever.

    Like I told the guy above, if you’re absolutely hell-bent on holding your girlfriend’s purse from time to time, great, go right ahead. I’m not Jack Outside the Box; I really don’t care. I just know what the overwhelming statistical odds are of A) it eventually causing a problem (even if minor) and B) you doing other things that will do the same.

    It’s also an utterly bizarre (i.e. beta) thing to disagree with me on and defend her at this blog. Seriously, why do you guys want to hold your women’s purses so badly? Don’t post your answers; I don’t care. Just read the question and think.

  88. I think most guys who’re fighting this are missing the point. Holding her purse is merely an example. The point is never be agreeable. If she asks you to do something in the moment, always say “no.” You don’t even have to be playful with it. Just say “no.” If she gives you shit or pleads, just say, “I don’t want to.”

    My sister once asked me to do something she was perfectly able to. I just asked her, “What’s wrong with your hands?” Keep this in mind, I was beta as fuck then, yet I still had the common sense to say no.

    Why should it be any different just because we’re fucking/trying to fuck a girl?

    This could go two ways: 1) you give into her most of the time when she asks you to do something, and then it becomes a practice within your relationship. You obey her like a Pavlovian dog. Bad.

    or

    2) you give her shit most of the time. You train her to avoid the awkwardness of rejection by not even asking you to do stuff in the first place. First time she’s testing waters, shut her down, nicely and with as few words as possible. “No” or “Nah” or “Don’t want to” would suffice. Do it two or three times, I guarantee she won’t ask you to do anything anymore. And if she does, it will always be phrased as a request, not an order.

  89.  If she asked you to try on a pair of jeans just for a minute, would you do it? Probably. If she told you to try on a dress for just a minute, would you do it? No.
    Why? They’re both clothes, so it doesn’t matter. Right?

    Good point!

  90. Caleb I worry that you’re still misunderstanding the point I’m trying to make here.

    She tells you to wear one of her dresses for five minutes and you do it because you don’t think anything of it. Would it affect her attraction and/or betaization for you in any way?

    It depends on the woman. But I’d argue that the most of us– both men and women– would agree that generally speaking, the man was most likely emasculated if he did something like this unless he’s just extremely effeminate (but there could be exceptions). Why? Because wearing a woman’s dress as a man is an extremely abnormal behavior,unlike holding a woman’s purse for a few seconds. I don’t think anyone’s really arguing that a man should be able to wear a women’s dress without being perceived as emasculated.

    Think of it this way: you could argue that there are degrees of emasculation. If you think that holding a woman’s purse for a few seconds because she’s busy and needs your help and you’ve got your hands free is equally emasculating as wearing a woman’s dress, then we’re going to have to agree to disagree again. If we’re still in agreement, though, then I wish you’d use a counterexample that’s more comparable to holding a woman’s purse and not so extreme/outrageous.

    In other words, if emasculation exists on a spectrum, I’d put holding a purse for a few seconds on the very low end of emasculation, and I’d put wearing her dress on the high end. But if you don’t give a fuck about holding purses or wearing dresses, I’d argue that that either lowers the degree of emasculation or removes it altogether. I think it’s intellectually dishonest to suggest that these two behaviors are exactly the same, but I don’t think that’s what you’re trying to do here. I suspect that if I told you that I don’t mind wearing women’s dresses, you’d bitchslap me and tell me to grow a pair. 🙂 (And to be clear, I have zero desire to wear women’s dresses ha)

    You also said that I shouldn’t feel emasculated for holding her purse in a previous comment, so I might be misunderstanding you again here since that seems like a contradiction to point #8 which you referenced in your previous comment. And it also seems to go against the point you made about the dress. Because if I shouldn’t feel emasculated about something which doesn’t bother me, yet the woman feels that I’m emasculated, then doesn’t that suggest that emasculation is subjective?

    What she thinks (what kind of man holds my purse for me) is more important than what you think.

    But the reason why this is your point is because you seem to be making the assumption that all/most women will subconsciously think you’re a pussy, regardless of context, if you hold her purse under any circumstances. And I’m asking you to provide evidence to support this claim because your whole argument is based entirely on this massive assumption.

    It’s true that none of us are going to hire any researchers to follow multiple couples around 24/7 and notate the amount of drama and length of the relationship of the men who hold purses as opposed to men who do not. I just know a hell of a lot of about women’s thought processes and which behaviors kick in betaization and/or reduce attraction. I know I’m right about this, even if it’s 1% or 5% or whatever.

    And I could say the same thing, except I’ve never sensed any betaization as a result of purse holding because I don’t feel that purse holding is an affront to my masculinity. Let me put it this way: you seem to be arguing that these kinds of emasculating behaviors are objectively emasculating from a woman’s point of view (which, again, seems to contradict what you said earlier about how I shouldn’t feel emasculated for holding her purse). But given the fact that this comment section is so divided with regards to what is and what isn’t masculine or emasculating, with both men and women posting, I think this supports my contention that emasculation is both subjective and contextual. It’s not objective and absolute like you seem to be arguing. And in my case, since I don’t mind helping her with her purse when she needs help, similar to you helping Pink Firefly with the groceries, I’m not being emasculated.

    It’s also an utterly bizarre (i.e. beta) thing to disagree with me on and defend her at this blog. Seriously, why do you guys want to hold your women’s purses so badly? Don’t post your answers; I don’t care. Just read the question and think.

    You’re confused because you and I are coming to different conclusions in our beliefs/arguments because you’re operating from one premise/assumption and I’m operating from another, but you seem to think I’m accepting your premise/assumptions to begin with, which I’m not (your premise essentially being: “most women will think you’re a pussy and lose some attraction for you if you hold her purse under any circumstances, regardless of context because women think that purse holding is objectively emasculating”). And when I’m asking you to provide evidence that women believe that, your response was to just take your word for it. We both agree that you can’t really prove or disprove your claim because your claim is weak. And since your premise is weak, your conclusions are debatable, which is why I’m discussing this with you right now. I’m trying to understand the logic behind your conclusion.

    I hope you understand that it’s difficult for me to take your word for it in this instance because in my experience I’ve never had any issues with holding a woman’s purse because it’s not something that bothers me. In other words, I’m not really trying to defend my right to hold women’s purses on here. I’m trying to say that your conclusions here rest upon a questionable premise, and I’m arguing with your premise. Since you seem to believe that emasculation is objective/absolute, it appears to you that I’m a beta for trying to argue about purse holding. But if you believed that emasculation was subjective and that there’s degrees of emasculation, then my argument would make sense to you, because I’m essentially arguing that in my case, I’m not being emasculated by holding a woman’s purse since it’s not something I view as an attack on my masculinity. And even if I was being emasculated, I’d argue that it’s to such a tiny degree that it falls within the 2% rule so it’s consequently not an issue. And finally, the woman’s waning attraction as a direct result of such a behavior isn’t really something either of us could measure or prove, and so I don’t think that that’s something we should base our beliefs and arguments upon.

    But considering we’re both living the Alpha 2.0 lifestyle despite our disagreements, I’m saying we’re probably just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. If I misunderstood or misinterpreted any of your points, let me know.

  91. Language note: purse in American English is handbag in British Commonwealth countries. Inside the handbag is a purse containing mostly only money and cards in it. Men carry a wallet for the same purpose, but it’s smaller and looks different. Therefore, don’t hold her (money-)purse either.

    Yes, I was wondering why anyone (man or woman) might be asked to hold a woman’s purse except in extremis (the woman feeling about to collapse or something)!

    In fact, some women’s purses (in the British sense) could pass as a man’s wallet. A purse in this sense is usually a purely functional item, nothing more.

  92. This reminds me of the advice for people facing a job interview:

    “Just go in there and be yourself!”

    “What if my real self is a painfully shy neurotic who is desperate to get a job and terrified that he’s going to fuck it up?”

    “Ah. Okay, go in there and be someone else, then.”

  93. does jack outside the box work for you black dragon? personally if I had a question I would want your opinion.

    Do you know what a blog’s comment section is?

    We all debate and give our opinions here. Just because BD is the owner doesn’t mean he has an exclusive monopoly over expressing himself. If he felt otherwise, he’d just shut this comment section down.

    If you want BD’s opinion, ask him.

    If you don’t want mine, reject it. Or better yet, don’t read it. But you have no business trying to shut me up on a blog that doesn’t belong to you. Read something else if you don’t like it.

    not some wanna be.

    I don’t want to be BD, so I’m not sure how you justify this characterization. Him and I are both in open relationships and agree on many things (while disagreeing on others), but I’m certainly not his wannabe beta bitch, if that’s what you’re implying.

     

     

  94. He is just a crazy over-compensating weirdo.

    Ah yes, the ad-hominem drive by shooting, followed by…

    Don’t mind him.

    …..a cowardly escape via a statement which speaks to the intent to ignore, even while feeling justified in trashing someone with zero counter-arguments present or forthcoming.

    Classy. Give yourself a cookie.

     

  95. I’ve told Jack for years that he needs to go start his own blog and he still hasn’t done it (always a new excuse).

    Well since YOU brought it up:

    1. Excuse? It’s literally in the works. I just need a few more weeks. Unlike you, I have no intention (yet) of revealing my true identity, so I must protect myself against doxxing. Surely you can understand this. Especially since my blog will be more controversial than yours. Plus, I’m super busy with other activism at the same time.

    2. I’ve only been retired since 2017. In the years before that, my day job as an attorney was too demanding. I didn’t have time to maintain a whole blog back then, but now I will.

     

     

  96. High sex drive women usually are FBs and are not suited for anything more.

    Why not? This is slut shaming. Aren’t you non-monogamous?

    Why would you disqualify a woman for a serious relationship, or even for being the mother of your children, just because she loves sex? I would think that her loving sex would make you want her even more, not less!

    As I suspected, you have traditionalist Madonna/whore tendencies which contradict sex-positivism. That’s very common with men who enjoy women cooking and cleaning for them.

    I can speak with all the authority I want. You are a minority of the minorities.

    Actually comparing the types of women I sleep with to the types of women who pee on men is very insulting and objectively unfair. My women are nowhere near as rare or exotic as people with crazy BDSM fetishes.

    The types of men who want women to pee on them are precisely a “minority of minorities.” Simply wanting women with high sex drives only (especially now that I know how abundant they are) may put me in a minority of men, but not even close to the scarcity that the crazy fetish guy experiences.

    I said your setup ONLY going for crazies

    Whoa! You think women who love sex are “crazies?” Damn man! Your slut shaming keeps on coming!

    and high sex drive women and excluding the rest is not something most men will follow. And your setup does not mean more happiness for men.

    Ok, this may be a fair point. Although some POS men would disagree with you.

    It is just only for you and your character.

    There are more men like me than you think, but I agree that we are not the majority.

    You on the other hand are missing hot women just because they are mainstreamers for you and mid sex drive women. Not because they are trouble on the road to sex.

    Partially correct.

    It’s true that a medium to low sex drive woman does not turn me on, but it’s also been my experience that the more prudish a woman is, the more game or seduction skills you need to fuck her. I’m POS, not TOTH. I don’t see the point in extra work if I can simply bathe myself in the abundance of women who’s sex drives are super high.

    Low sex drive women aren’t worth the headache. It’s about time management as much as it is about my specific sexual compatibility.

    You have your own preference. Don’t present it like it’s the holy Grail. It’s not.

    At the same time though, there are men who think like me. They told me so themselves and expressed gratitude that I’m speaking like this.

    And there are points who are against you. Mainly the extensive screening.

    Again, if you are experienced with this, you should have a, more or less, solid grasp of the strength of her sex drive by the end of the first date.

    You are tossing away a huge chunk of women something that most men wouldn’t have. Even hardcore alphas. Just because they are not high sex drive women? Ridiculous.

    My specific sexual turn ons + time management + being a pleasure of sex guy = my attitude.

    I agree that the first thing is personal and individualistic, but the other two are not.

     

     

     

     

  97. While I do agree that it is weak sauce, since I think marriage is antiquated, I say let them do their thing. I’m not either of their daddies, so why should I have much emotional stake in their decisions. I never understood why you have so much emotional stake in stuff like this.

    Because I care about people in general. Sometimes, too much for my own good.

     

  98. Did men of the 50s or great men of history cook for themselves? Were they babies? I’m sure Genghis Khan was such a beta and a baby when he let/obeyed women cook for him. And I’m sure his women were turned off by his immaturity.

    Really? You’re going to compare the present day to men who lived before the industrial revolution? Back when work was dangerous, deadly, and brutally physical, it made sense for the men to do the dirty work while the women stayed at home and made themselves useful by cooking and cleaning.

    Today, however, women are no longer dependent on men financially and work need not be physical. This is good, because today men and women can sleep with each other because they truly want to, not because one needs the other for their physical or financial survival.

    Thanks to modern tech, men and women can express their true personalities, not act based on survivalist necessity. Before machines, however, traditional gender roles made sense.

    If you have a mission you don’t have time for trivial things like mopping the floor. It means you have much time in your hands and that’s beta.

    That’s why you hire someone to do these things for you. I actually do have a professional cleaning lady. And I am thinking about hiring a cook, at least eventually.

    When I said, “cook and clean for yourself,” I meant “don’t be dependent on women you’re sleeping with for this.” In other words, “take care of these things independently of her.”

    Afraid you will lose your Independence because of such gestures shows that you have no trust in yourself to keep your frame.

    Personally, I just hate the thought of being dependent on someone in my personal life. I want her to know that I need her for nothing.

    Also women in our lives see us once a week at best. Not everyday just like your OLTR. So your regularly is not our regularly. Do we starve the rest of the days?

    Yes, this is a good point. So you’re talking about MLTRs then. I will admit that cooking for you once in a while (especially if you see her only once a week anyway) is better than what I was picturing.

    But I would still not inject mundane bullshit into a sexual relationship. If that’s just me (although I think more men agree), than so be it.

     

  99. most of you guys aren’t even able to think for yourself, you either need a guy like BD telling you what to do or you just act way too much alpha lol

    I have never been asked to hold any purse/bag except for one time. She asked me to hold her purse (she went to the toilets) and I said “yes, I will and I will also look what’s inside of your bag as well” and I smirked. She laughed, said nooooo and took her bag with her.

    Acting tough, alpha or whatever you like to call it is just ridiculous and makes you look like a try hard

  100. I just thought about male friends. What if they asked you to hold their bags, wallets whaever it is because they need to take a piss or so?

    Well usually guys don’t say that, they say, keep an eye on my phone/bag/etc and they put them on a table or nearby you. But anyway, would any guy think much of it if his buddy asked him to hold smthg for him? I guess most of us wouldn’t care, because our buddies wouldn’t either.

  101. Because I care about people too much for my own good.

    Fixed. Caring about people you don’t know who wouldn’t even shrug if you died tomorrow is a massive and tragic waste of energy. My thing is: Unless they bought something from you or are your friends/family (and in the case of friends/family that is questionable) why should you care about them? But like BD says if you want to keep wasting your energy on external solutions, fine by me. For example, let’s say I died tomorrow and someone on here confirms it. Would you go to my funeral even if I was some person who you just have discussions on the internet with? Think about it my dude.

    most of you guys aren’t even able to think for yourself, you either need a guy like BD telling you what to do or you just act way too much alpha lol

    Wrong blog mane. This is BD’s blog not Roosh’s or Cernovich’s blog. I think a lot of us here do think for ourselves its just a lot of our opinions and stuff fall right in line with BD’s. That’s how it was for me anyways.

    I have never been asked to hold any purse/bag except for one time. She asked me to hold her purse (she went to the toilets) and I said “yes, I will and I will also look what’s inside of your bag as well” and I smirked. She laughed, said nooooo and took her bag with her.

    I’ve done that as well.

    Acting tough, alpha or whatever you like to call it is just ridiculous and makes you look like a try hard

    Agreed. Its why I attack PUAism as much as I do (especially RSD and most of the “manopshere.” Cuz a lot of their content revolves around acting that way. Getting attention like that actually isn’t alpha cuz you’re still trying to impress people. Alpha males don’t impress others, everyone knows that they have leadership qualities.

  102. This reminds me of the time I tried to hold my GFs purse and she didn’t like it.  I was making a big joke about it, swinging it around.  Like, I dare anyone to even look at me funny.  In real life I do cocky/funny without having to try.

    The fact that she was embarrassed proves Caleb’s point.  Women know it hurts your EFA, and she would rather have you be masculine than help her out that way.  Unless, of course, you are an orbiter or someone she isn’t really attracted to.

     

  103. Fixed.

    I have asked you politely, multiple times in the past, to stop doing this! Quote me accurately, or not at all.

    I will simply stop responding to you and put you on my own mental ignore list like I did with Gil Galad if you continue fucking with my quotes!

     

  104. This is the first post I really do not like, it seems a bit of circlejerking. Really ? should we be discussing about a woman’s purse ,and make rules of weather to hold it or not ?

    I can imagine a situation where everyone Alpha/Beta/Gama would happily carry her purse but since I do not want to keep this mental masturbation exercise going I will just shut up by saying that this is not the post quality that keeps bringing me back here.

    Cheers

  105. Why not? This is slut shaming. Aren’t you non-monogamous?

    You can put words in my mouth and alter them as much as you like to make a point. Is not going to work.

    I have my setup and it works like a charm for me. You have your own. Let’s just say I will never upgrade your kind of woman to a more serious status. You can call it slut shaming. I call it I don’t upgrade weirdos I just enjoy them in bed.

  106. Seriously, why do you guys want to hold your women’s purses so badly?

    I’ve read the whole discussion between BD and SM and I’m going to agree with SM points on this.

    I don’t find holding a woman’s purse for a few seconds emasculating at all. I don’t see a big deal, or any deal on holding it for a few seconds while we’re walking somewhere and, say, it’s too hot and she wants to take off her cloak. No need to stop for 10 seconds if I can just hold it while walking.

    It feels to me like you are trying to complicate normal, human interactions too much, BD.

    Does this mean I make no mistakes on other fronts when it comes to interactions and relationships with women? No. Does this, however, mean that from now on I should never hold a woman’s purse again? No, that’s just silly. If I were dressing up in woman’s clothes that’d be a different story. But it’s just a bag, and holding it is practical.

    I often wear a town backpack, and when we’re going somewhere and I need water out of it or something I’ll ask the woman to just get it out for me while I have the backpack on. Does this mean I’m now suddenly “dominating” her, or “using” her? No, it just takes 2-3x time less time than if I had to take off the backpack, get water, then put the backpack on. And hey, she might want the water too. Perfect opportunity for some legit human interaction and offer it to her.

     

     

  107. This is the first post I really do not like, it seems a bit of circlejerking. Really ? should we be discussing about a woman’s purse ,and make rules of weather to hold it or not ?

    Although I do agree that this is getting out of hand, I’d argue that an article like this is perfect for beta males who have no idea how to get to sex with a woman fast. Back when I was a confused omega male who only knew how to approach, I had no idea that other behaviors could tip the scales between being desired romantically vs platonically. So articles like this, while they do trigger certain guys (seeing the responses have shown how beta and butthurt a lot of these guys really are), are necessary for any aspiring Alpha 2 to read.

    *most* of the readers here don’t want to be happy long term, aren’t outcome independent, pursue external solutions, don’t have open minds, and sadly still look to female validation. This article has shown me that. The last one did as well. All the butthurt from the readers here who are taking hundreds of lines to explain their bad habits away has really shown me something.

  108. You can put words in my mouth and alter them as much as you like to make a point. Is not going to work.

    I’m not doing that intentionally. I’m simply asking you to explain why you shame women who love sex by designating them as “weirdos,” “crazies,” and “not fit to be loved.”

    It’s a legitimate question on a sex-positive blog.

    I don’t upgrade weirdos I just enjoy them in bed.

    So a high sex drive woman is a weirdo?

    Ok, what about high sex drive men? Are we also weirdos? Should we also be denied love, serious affection, and having children one day, just because we love sex?

    I’m just trying to determine what is the source of your sex-negative expectations for the future mother of your children.

    So far, you have articulated two traditional conservative beliefs:

    1. Sex-loving women are only good for fucking, nothing else (despite the fact that you’re non-monogamous, and therefore, aren’t concerned about cheating); and,

    2. Women should definitely be allowed to cook and clean for men.

    These are both 1950s M/W beliefs which contradict sex-positive principles.

    If you think I’m putting words in your mouth or being deceptive in any way, let me know. I’m giving you a chance to clarify. The way I see it, I’m quoting you accurately. I’d like to know where I’m wrong.

     

     

  109. Hey BD, I’m with you on this, I can’t believe the controversy this stirred up.  One time I met a woman at a bar and we hit it off.  After a few drinks we left(with no next destination mentioned), and she handed me her hot pink fur scarf to carry for her.  She could see me balk but she insisted.  I gauged it as shit test and reluctantly went along because I thought the lay was imminent.  I felt ridiculous.  We then hopped  into a taxi and went straight back to her place and banged.  Saw her several times after that and she never did that again.  She was on the dominant side, but I could tolerate it for short bursts.

  110. 1. Sex-loving women are only good for fucking, nothing else (despite the fact that you’re non-monogamous, and therefore, aren’t concerned about cheating)

    The way they are now, that’s pretty much the only thing they are good for. Start a family with one? You’ll get divorce raped within three years. Try to start a family with one but not get married? You’ll be pressured into getting married.

    2. Women should definitely be allowed to cook and clean for men.

    Allowed, yes. It is their prerogative. There’s a difference here. A tradcon would say that the only thing a chick should be doing is cooking and cleaning for men. Then he’d go on to say that the world is coming to an end because they aren’t doing those things lol.

    A chick should have the choice to do those things. However, if I’m living with a chick (or anyone really) and they aren’t contributing anything money wise, then yeah they’re obligated to cook and clean (that goes for anyone). Just like if I am not contributing anything money wise then I ought to do the same.

  111. @joelsuf, what you describe sounds like a guaranteed recipe for a joyless, sexless relationship based on acrimonious mutual dependence of a partucularly demeaning kind. God save and protect me from such a frightful situation.

  112. The way they are now, that’s pretty much the only thing they are good for. Start a family with one? You’ll get divorce raped within three years. Try to start a family with one but not get married? You’ll be pressured into getting married.

    Bit of a false dichotomy there. I’m aware of your crush culture concept but I think sex-related attachment is just as natural as sex and fundamentally different from friendship, and it doesn’t have to be shunned altogether unless that’s just your personality, which is also fine. This is close to the MLTR concept anyway. The happiest middle between getting sexual and emotional needs met OTOH and being legally safe OTOH is probably a high end MLTR who rarely spends the night with you if ever (and normal weekly meetings), till she understandably LSNFTEs you, plus one or two FBs or low-end MLTRs.

  113. Question: Suppose you’re in the particular situation where she’s carrying her purse (normal ) and you are carrying your heavy backpack (it is not hers); you’ve got a few things in it.

    If she asks: Will you take my purse of my hands for a minute ? and you said:

    Yes. But you got to take the backpack/rucksack, then move ready for the exchange,

    Would that be a good idea or not ? Still get betazeid for it ?

  114. Wow! This has certainly been a controversial topic. Personally, I put it in the category of things that I don’t really care about, and I’d do whatever seemed reasonable at the time. I can’t say it’s ever been a big issue in my life one way or the other.

  115. @Jotb: Determine what you will. Yes in most cases high sex drive women are weirdos in my world. And since you assume things out of your ass I’m high sex and POS guy. Men are different if you hadn’t notice..

    And to further show you how you alter things to make your point:

    1. Sex loving women is not the same as high sex drive women. Sex loving women can be also the vast majority of mainstreamers.

    Check BDs post about the drive of women. Categorize them correctly and then come make a conversation about it.

    Most High sex drive women in my world have tendencies that doesnt make them suited for anything more than just FBs. Maybe you have much time in your hands and you want to indulge their tendencies like forcing them to find partners. Not for me

    Also there are exceptions and those exceptions might get upgraded but the rule in my world is if she is high sex drive woman most likely she’ll show tendencies that doesn’t make her worthy of anything more

    2. Never said definitely and this just proves my point that you just put words to suit your scenario. I said if my women want to cook for me or buy me stuff or whatever I will not stop them in any way. I’ll welcome it. I don’t feel threatened at all and your first statement about that is utterly incorrect. Women doing stuff for you like that is Good for your frame not bad(in non mono) but of course there is more to it on this to have the complete correct sentence. It will take a whole explanation.

    But let’s just say your statement on that is completely wrong. Their attraction goes up if they do these stuff and you STILL don’t play ball. It shows congruency to them. It shows to them that you are not bought in any way.

  116. I been reading this thread with interest and have come to the following conclusions:-

    Some of the posters on the thread are outcome dependent and really care how they are coming across to women. I realise that this mind set is a necessity when transitioning to more attractive masculine behaviour. Note that I didn’t say Alpha specifically as lower alpha / higher beta types get laid too.

    Some of the more developed / mature posters who enjoy success with women really do not care about the purse handling thing as they have developed the correct behaviours over the years with practice, persistence and action. They maybe feel that they have something to offer the blog as we are all here to learn, improve and enjoy a better quality of life / happiness.

    I have a tip for the less experienced player who is too much in his head when interacting with women which I have used for over twenty years.

    I simply ask myself… “What would James Bond do?”

    I realise that initially that this may seem somewhat simplistic but I would invite you guys who are looking to improve to try this. With practice and persistence it becomes like any action/ thought, ingrained by habit into your personality.

    Try it an report back your experiences.

    Cheers guys.

     

     

     

  117. Just don’t be a baby. Women aren’t turned on by babies. That’s all I’m saying!

    Take the chill pill man…you are completely overreacting to something that is perfectly natural and even expected from girls. I never said you should become any woman’s baby.

    (FYI I’m 38 now. Been living by myself since I was 17. Do the math.)

    But what YOU is advocating is that we should dismiss women’s care just because (in your head) it is some kind of ultimate trap to lock us in. No, no, no!

    Remember, a man always hold the keys to the relationship. It’s we who decide as far as we want to go, not them. If you have that in your core as something really set in stone, you won’t care at all about what women do to lock you in inside their disney stuff.

  118. When I made the post, I wrongfully assumed that you guys would read it as ” What would James Bond do when faced with a shit test?” not “don’t do anything that James Bond wouldn’t do in any area of life”.

    My bad.

  119.  

    Lucky for him I don’t regularly use purses…..too fancy for me.

     
    I agree, it kind of makes us girls appear too high-maintenance and vulnerable……but I do take a handbag to work only and never at any other time.  Why one would need to carry so much stuff around all day long is beyond me.  I mean, everything we need can fit in our pants pockets anyways.  Plus when you carry a handbag around all of the time, then you can’t have both of your hands free.
     
    A comment on some of the stuff that Jack Outside the Box and POB had their differences about; like how letting a girl do nice stuff for you is bad or not bad……
     
    I think this relates to one of the five love languages that BD wrote about a long time ago, Acts of Service.  Some people show they care by doing nice things for someone else without expecting anything else in return.  It makes some girls feel good about themselves to do nice things, like making dinner for a guy.

  120. I have an idea (feedback wanted) :

    As far as a response to a purse-holding request :

    “Wow, you really want me to see what is in your purse.”

    “Are you sure you want me to see what is in your purse?”

    That way, her request for you to hold her purse will suddenly turn into her being startled that you will simply start looking through her purse if she makes you hold it.  This achieves the emotional highs and lows, plus induces some jerkboy charm.

    Thoughts?

     

     

  121. As far as a response to a purse-holding request :
    “Wow, you really want me to see what is in your purse.”
    “Are you sure you want me to see what is in your purse?”

    Neither of those. A simple “no” or “I’m good” will do just fine. If she gets pissy and asks why…well then that should give you a good indicator of how she’ll be in the future. You should know what to do next. Like BD says, if you weren’t around would it make a difference?

    O U T C O M E  I N D E P E N D E N C E. Remove your emotional stake from chicks responses and just do the proper Alpha thing. Which is not do favors (unless you don’t care about having sex with her or don’t want to have sex with her).

    And read some Victor Pride and learn how to say “no” without being guilty about stuff.

    Recent example: My mom wanted me to pick something up but it was raining like crazy outside. So I said “no. Maybe I might go if it clears up.”

  122. When I made the post, I wrongfully assumed that you guys would read it as ” What would James Bond do when faced with a shit test?” not “don’t do anything that James Bond wouldn’t do in any area of life”.

    My bad.

    That’s the issue, is it a fucking shit test in the first place? Perhaps to James Bond it would be a shit test. Would it be the same shit test to a James Bond that DJs?

  123. What you can’t recognise a shit test because you are a DJ?

    I think that’s where your blind spot is bro.

     

  124. DB, I never registered this as a shit test. I didn’t care, still don’t. Purses are wellsprings of information. Yes, some women complain when you go through their purses, but I figure if they don’t want me holding it anymore, they’ll take it back instead of asking. I’ve usually helped myself to a few bucks and some tic tacs as compensation for my services. I like Orange flavored ones the best, but most prefer mint. My mom liked the orange ones too. Yea, I’d do the same to her. My grandmother was the only female who never asked me to do anything with their purse. You’ve definitely given me perspective into why they’d be pissed though. Much appreciated. I’ve no plans to stop though now that I know it’s a test.

  125. I would have a hard time seeing a guy as “Alpha” if his entire masculinity and alphaness was threatened by holding a purse for a few seconds. It’s not that serious.

  126. Yesterday evening I met a woman at a gathering of people known to one of my friends. I wound up leaving with her. A couple of times over the next few hours, she tried to get me to hold her purse. I did exactly as BD said. <smile? “that’s really cute that you think I’m going to hold your purse.” Later on she demanded to know why, and I said “purses are for chicks; I’m not one.” About 15 minutes later she said, “it turns me on when you refuse to do as I say.” We hooked up later on.

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