first date advice, first online date, online dating advice, meaning of an open relationship, alpha male traits

This is the tenth installment of the book I never published regarding my history with women and the lessons I learned from it. If you haven’t yet, you should read parts one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight and nine before you read the article below, so you can be up to speed on where the story picks up. Everything below is all 100% true to the best of my memory, journals, and spreadsheet records, though all the names of the people described have been changed.

We last left off in the spring of 2008, having just recently discovered pick-up artist (PUA) material. I was now determined to integrate what I learned to improve my results…

Summer, 2008

Now implementing my new PUA techniques, some of which worked very well (and some of which blew up in my face), and now starting to more reliably get to sex quickly with cute girls, I started getting more confident about the type of women I could open online. The fact I finally moved out of my tiny, “guy going through a divorce” apartment with no bed and into a real house with some real (albeit still shitty) furniture also helped my mental frame.

One day, pretty much out of the blue, I remembered how, while I was married, I fantasized whenever I saw older, hot, curvy, legal teenage girls. Any girls under about age 18 or 19 I was never attracted to, since “my type” is curvy women with big hips, big butts, and big boobs. So the young teenage girls who looked like little girls (the Ariana Grande types) always turned me off, even when I was a teenager. But college-age girls, like those 18 to about 24 who actually had fully developed boobs/butts/hips…

Hm. I started to wonder.

I thought “I’m 36 years old… what would happen if I started messing with much younger women on the dating sites? Not like 25 year-olds, but like 18, 19, and 20 year-olds.”

It was a pure hypothetical curiosity. If figured that if the younger women were disgusted and rejected me, I’d still be fine since I would just stick with the women age 25-45 who were (more or less) working for me already. But what if even some of the much younger women responded to me favorably? Hm.

Eh, what the hell, I didn’t have anything to lose.

So, using the online dating techniques that I knew were more or less already working for me, I started opening the younger women, women age 18 to about 23. (And I kept on opening women in the usual age ranges too; I didn’t want to put all of my eggs in the younger women basket.)

As I expected, the vast, vast majority most of the younger women either ignored my online openers or responded with revulsion. These responses ranged from pure disgust (“OMG you’re my dad’s age you fucking pedo!”) to confusion (“Um, I’m 19. Why are you messaging me?”)

My usual positive response rates, which were pretty good with women in my own age range, dropped like a stone with women under the age of 23, somewhere around 1-3% or worse.

However! 1-3% meant there were indeed a tiny few younger women I messaged who responded favorably. I was shocked. I had no idea this would happen. I remember how strange it felt at the time to have some hot 18 year-old actually respond favorably to my messages and wanting to carry on a real conversation with me. These were Type 2 VYW, those few younger women naturally attracted to much older men and who don’t really like guys their own age, but I didn’t know that yet at the time.

Lesson Seventeen

The bigger the age difference, the lower your response rates will be, particularly when the age difference goes over ten years, and there’s nothing you can do about this. BUT! As long as the response rate isn’t zero, you can still get results. I did. And still do.

Shortly, I actually got one of those girls to agree to a first date. She was 20 years old and we met at a Starbucks. Again, I was shocked that a 20 year-old girl would actually want to drive out to a date to meet me, a 36 year-old dad with a son who was just a few years younger than her.

I’ve already talked about what happened on that date here and in my younger woman book, but the summary was that despite the fact she was dingy as hell, even borderline irritating, I felt an unusual wave of horniness right after I got home after the date, unlike anything I had experienced before. Sadly, I never saw her again because I didn’t handle the follow-up correctly.

This experience clearly showed me two things: A) at least some hot, younger women will agree to go out on a date with me, and B) these women clearly made me horny even if they bored me to death on the date.

So I kept at it, messaging more younger women, getting horrible response rates and a few angry responses. Eventually, I got another first date with one. She was even better-looking than the first one; a very tall, blonde 19 year-old who looked like a model. Not really my type (I dislike tall women and her boobs weren’t very big), but still very attractive, so I went for it.

First date went great, follow-up went great, but we never met up again. Dammit! Either she went back to another guy she was fucking (most likely) or her schedule just became too chaotic. She also lived almost an hour away from me so logistics were not favorable.

Regardless, I got a little closer with her than the first one, so I was making progress. I kept trying. Even when I got first dates scheduled, often these younger women would cancel or flake. Such is the nature of younger women.

Lesson Eighteen

The flake rate and reschedule rate for women under the age of 23 is far, FAR higher than women over 23. Expect this, adjust accordingly, and put in much more numbers when dealing with women this age.

Eventually, the third time was the charm. I scheduled a first date with a very cute, trim, 18 year-old redhead with big boobs whom I’ll call Selina. Though I did not know it at the time, Selina would be a huge goldmine of sex and relationships and relationships for me, not just from her, but from many other women, and for many years to come. She represented a turning point in my woman life from “somewhat working” to “insane crazy” that would set the stage for the next two or three years.

We were going to meet at a local cheap restaurant since she was too young to meet me at a bar. (I had not yet developed a system on exactly where to have first dates with women who were under drinking age; I would develop that later.) On my way out to the restaurant, she sent me a text saying she would be a little late. I arrived alone at the restaurant and waited. Ten minutes later she texted again, and was saying she was having car trouble. A similar text came in ten more minutes after that.

Ah, younger women. It’s the nature of the beast. I shrugged, assumed she wasn’t going to make it, and ordered a salad since I was getting hungry.

Forty minutes later she was still texting me, saying she was trying to “get out there.” I told her to forget it and went back home. It upset me that she never showed up, but at least she kept communicating, and that was a good sign. Over the next few days she sent me sexy pictures of herself to my phone (I had a Blackberry back then), without any prompting from me (I never ask women to send me photos; that’s stupid; I want sex, not photos).

Finally, we nailed down another time to meet; 10:30pm, right after another first date I had. I was going to pick her up at her apartment and then figure out where to take her. (I was still not 100% organized regarding setting up logistics at this point.) So I had my first date of the evening at a bar downtown (a first date with a 28 year-old blonde corporate woman who worked for a large bank), wrapped it up in about an hour, then drove out to Selina’s apartment, arriving at exactly 10:30pm. Multiple first and second dates in one evening was common for me at this point.

She had friends over at her apartment, and she was unwilling to explain to them that she was meeting up with an older man, so she said she would meet me in the parking lot. I pulled up, and sure enough, there she was, dressed in a long tight shirt and shorts that were so damn short they barely covered her 18 year-old ass.

She jumped in the car with a huge smile and just started talking to me like we were already old friends (stealing one of my own first date techniques!), making jokes about how she was dressed like a hooker and all kinds of other silly crap. She was very happy, very extroverted, and very confident. No wonder she was brave enough to meet up with a stranger and much older man like this.

As she kept talking, it became clear to me that either she had been drinking or was on something. I later found out she had been drinking and doing a little cocaine. Not that it mattered much, since Selina was extremely high-energy and social even when completely sober.

We drove around a little, looking for a restaurant that A) was still open this late, and B) allowed minors. Finally we found one. On the way in, she showed me her hair (which was mostly red but dyed in at least 4 different colors) and her stupid tattoos on her back (which were also in many different colors). I hate tats and still do, but she was so hot it didn’t bother me much.

Once inside, I ordered a milkshake for both of us to share, and she went on to tell me all kinds of wild stories about her life, her kid (who was 3 years old at the time and lived with her mom), her being on American Idol, her education, her incomplete nursing degree, and many other things, almost all of which later turned out to be untrue. But damn, she was fun. I began to feel the same powerful, sexual energy I had felt with that first younger woman permeate my system.

Soon we were walking around outside, and it was past midnight. After walking for a bit I grabbed Selina, pulled her to me, and kissed her (once again, stupidly violating my later “don’t kiss on the first date” rule; thank goodness most VYW have much lower ASD than normal women). Her lips and body responded eagerly, and we stood there making out in the moonlit shadow of an old church.

Driving back to her apartment, my body was on fire and I wanted more, and I could tell she wanted the same. I pulled into an empty parking lot and we made out in my car, her sitting on me in the front seat. She said “We can do whatever you want, but no penetration.”

Shit. So apparently even 18 year-olds can have a little ASD.

Oh well. I made do. I threw her into the back seat of my car, and for about 30 minutes straight, her and I did just about everything you can do sexually with clothing staying on.

I dropped her back at her place at around 2am. She was excited to hang out again. So was I.

My second meet with Selina was just going over to her apartment. To my utter chagrin, there were other people there, teaching me an important lesson to ensure this would never happen again.

Lesson Nineteen

Never have any date with a woman that involves other people besides just you and her, until after you’ve had sex with her twice. The odds of you actually getting to sex on a date when her friends are around are near zero.

Selina was an avid musician and pot smoker. Most of the “date” was pretty much her showing me all of her musical paraphernalia and watching her and her friends smoke weed. As usual, I have no problem with people doing all the drugs they want (I’m a libertarian), but I don’t do drugs, ever. So she and her friends smoked and drank, and I just drank water and enjoyed the show, feeling like a beta.

Soon, more of her friends started to arrive, both men and women. I knew then there would be zero chance of sex with her that night, so I gave her a big hug and kiss and left. She looked sad and her eyes followed me as I left. I could tell she didn’t want me to go, but I don’t do friend zone.

I wasn’t sure if I would ever see her again, but I did. Our third “date” was just her and I coming over to my place after going to Taco Bell. She mentioned in a text that she could just “stay over” into the following day. Good. I liked the sound of that. (I did not yet have the rule of not spending the night with a woman the first time you have sex with her.)

As we were making out in my living room, she told me about how smoking weed and meeting her friends was one of her big “tests,” since it was important to her that any guy she dated was “okay” with her smoking weed and “hanging out with other guys.” Fortunately for her and me, as an emerging Alpha Male 2.0 with high degrees of outcome independence, neither of those things bothered me in the least, and this made her very happy.

I had to check some email in my upstairs office, and when I came back down, I couldn’t find her. I went into my bedroom, and there she was, in my bed, cozy in my sheets. I must have had the biggest, dumbest smile on my face, because I was happy as could be. 60 seconds later, I was fulfilling one of my biggest lifetime sexual fantasies; sex with a much younger woman (legal of course, I had checked her ID and made sure before this). I’m not going to give specifics, but it was every bit as wonderful and exciting as I thought it would be.

Hell, it was better.

This moment officially began an entirely new phase of craziness and sexiness in my life that would not let up for at least two more years. More on that in the next installment.

34 Comments on “The Story of My History with Women – Part 10 – My First Much Younger Woman

  1. Your story is very intriguing! I would rather you included all the other women you had sex with, as well.

  2. This series is great. Entertaining to read and useful to learn off your mistakes.

    How did you screw up the follow-up with the first girl?

  3. BD

    thanks for the post

    I have found women who lie
    and women who frequently use weed to be unmanageable and too much drama

    how did you make it work for you?

  4. Hey bd what’s your take on women sending nudes or pics. Do you think it helps asking her to send you them?

  5. If you have such low response rates, and a lot of angry responses, how do you avoid building up a negative reputation? Even in a city of like, a million people, seems like you would end up burning through a ton of people and start to be recognized.

    This is also my issue with day game. I actually look much younger and get IOIs from younger women all the time, but I have this voice in my head telling me they’re going to be disgusted at my age and start talking about me to their friends or something.

  6. As we were making out in my living room, she told me about how smoking weed and meeting her friends was one of her big “tests,”

    It’s a bit funny how she went on to try and classify you as “boyfriend material” already on the 2nd date.

    Do you think it was because of your own vibe (you being in your early days of pick-up), or was it completely on her own?

    In my experience, younger women stick to much more direct tests, such as her meeting up with you fully aware of your age, but still saying something like “aren’t you a little old to be seeing a girl my age?” or other s***-tests that need a fun & cocky response.

  7. If you have such low response rates, and a lot of angry responses, how do you avoid building up a negative reputation? Even in a city of like, a million people, seems like you would end up burning through a ton of people and start to be recognized.

    You just don’t push it. As long as you leave it there, when she doesn’t respond or responds angrily, you are fine.

  8. probably my favorite thus far. Relevant for my current awkward phase figuring out your system and no furniture etc. the sexy phase unlock sounds special

  9. My difficulty with the age difference is that I am still not sure how to handle the online game correctly. I know you have said many times that its fine and even recommended to adjust the age online in order to appear in search results. However, you also advice not to lie to women, which I agree is best thing to do, but then its not clear to me when is best to tell her and in which way.

    Is there some small amount of age adjustment that is ok without needing to tell her?

  10. AlphaOmega: I’d say lie by a few years online, say you’re “actually a little older than your profile says” on 1st date, and disclose your age somewhere between 2nd date and lock-in.

  11. I have this voice in my head telling me [random people in the street are] going to be disgusted at [me doing whatever]

    Isn’t it funny how we feel people are going to judge us for the most petty offenses, while we ourselves wouldn’t think twice if someone else were to do it?

  12. If you have such low response rates, and a lot of angry responses, how do you avoid building up a negative reputation?

    Two things,

    1) People judge and talk about random strangers way less than you think.

    2) What negative reputation? And who cares? Let’s say a WYW told 10 of her WYW friend that a “creepy older guy” messaged her. Who cares? Hell, if word would spread, you’d even have some pre-selection since they’ve already heard about you.

    but I have this voice in my head telling me they’re going to be disgusted at my age and start talking about me to their friends or something.

    If you’re not running “creepy stalker” game, why in the world would they talk about it with their friends? At worst, they can say “some random older guy invited me to coffee! GROSS!”. They don’t know who you are. And why would you even care if they did?

    I had a friend who lived at a college. He feared that becoming a “player” would kill his reputation and chances with the girls there. Guess what happened when he started getting a rep for sleeping with a lot of the hot girls there. Do you really think it killed his chances? Hell no. He got offers left and right.

    Don’t worry about what people think about you, and don’t use it as an excuse not to take action.

  13. @Blackdragon

    how will dating VYW be impacted by future biotechnology and regenerative medicine allowing a 50 or 60 year old man to look 30.

  14. Blackdragon with the continual decline of the West and our country continually turning more Leftist/Progressive would you say ASD for younger chicks may go up or down in the next 10 years or so?

    I’d also include a lot of the FREAK chicks with Tattoos on their face/neck, no job, strippers, career IG Models, Cam Show Girls, ETC.. I found they don’t necessarily have ASD (as some have ZERO in their careers) BUT If you’re a straightlace white collar dude the Flaking they do is just like the VYW. Now if you’re doing Scoial Circle Game it maybe a little better, but..

    See I don’t mind women smoking weed, I don’t mind Molly and Extacy at raves or so, but Coke I can’t have their behavior. Any age group.

    Slightly Of Topic.. just had my Vasectomy.. just recovering at home for a few days. So Stoked!!

  15. AlphaOmega: I’d say lie by a few years online, say you’re “actually a little older than your profile says” on 1st date, and disclose your age somewhere between 2nd date and lock-in.

    My experience is that if the difference I listed online isnt huge most chicks will forget what my age was and when they ask me later I tell them the truth and it goes fine. Of course if I want have effective chances online with 18y olds I would need to adjust more than just a few years so then its either lie completely and dont tell them and just use them as FB and hope they dont find out which isnt ideal or disclose before first date which will probably result in a lot of flakes. I am very uncomfortable about telling it on date 1. I think it makes a bad first impression: ” oh by the way i lied on my profile “. I think the options for me are: 1) just lie 2) say it on my profile 3) say it to the girl before the first date 4) say it to the girl at some point later after I fucked her a few times. I also know Tinder has option to hide age but I am not sure how good of an idea that is because it makes you look shady but I havent tested it much yet.

  16. @Breezy, actually, although the positive outcome is very low, most young women don’t give a shit about older men hitting on them, so don’t worry about your reputation.

     

  17. I would rather you included all the other women you had sex with, as well.

    Nope. Not enough room in these articles, and I’m not going to talk about any specific numbers of women.

    How did you screw up the follow-up with the first girl?

    I way over-verbalized everything on texts to her after the date. Very stupid, and a common guy mistake.

    I have found women who lie
    and women who frequently use weed to be unmanageable and too much drama

    I have never found this to be the case, but I don’t get serious with those women (women who lie a lot); just keep them at the FB level and they’re great!

    Hey bd what’s your take on women sending nudes or pics.

    I think they’re stupid, but if they do it without being prompted, it’s usually an indicator of interest, so that part is good.

    Do you think it helps asking her to send you them?

    No, it hurts. Bad frame. Too needy. You shouldn’t care; that’s attractive.

    If you have such low response rates, and a lot of angry responses, how do you avoid building up a negative reputation? Even in a city of like, a million people, seems like you would end up burning through a ton of people and start to be recognized.

    Never, ever had that problem (though my city is closer to 2 million people).

    Stop worrying about problems that only exist in theories in your head.

    I have this voice in my head telling me they’re going to be disgusted at my age and start talking about me to their friends or something.

    Exactly. Key part of that sentence: in my head.

    Do you think it was because of your own vibe (you being in your early days of pick-up), or was it completely on her own?

    Probably a combination of both. She was definitely boyfriend-seeking.

    Is there some small amount of age adjustment that is ok without needing to tell her?

    My standard answer to that question is that it’s fine to knock a few years off your age on your online dating profile provided you look reasonably younger and you tell her your real age in person at some point soon in the interaction (before or after sex is up to you). I’ve done this a few times and never had a problem.

    I do not advise lying to women about your age forever, because I don’t advise lying to women at all. Lying creates future drama. (Of course if you don’t mind drama, do whatever you want.)

    how will dating VYW be impacted by future biotechnology and regenerative medicine allowing a 50 or 60 year old man to look 30.

    Off-topic, and I’ve covered that before in past articles.

    Blackdragon with the continual decline of the West and our country continually turning more Leftist/Progressive would you say ASD for younger chicks may go up or down in the next 10 years or so?

    1. It will go down. Way down. It already has.

    2. At the same time, it will be more frowned upon by over-30 left-wing women. In the short to medium term you will see many countries increase the age of consent and crack down on this younger woman stuff by incorrectly labeling it “sex trafficking” and other bullshit.

    So short to mid-term, this stuff will get more societally more difficult even though more younger women will be up for it. Long-term, everyone will embrace it because it won’t matter anymore.

    Just like with nonmonogamy, in the end, we will win. It will just be a difficult transition for a lot of people until this happens (primary right-wing men and left-wing over-30 women).

    When you die, BD, please conserve this wisdom for our generation Z.

    I will. Don’t worry.

    do you have hardcovers?

    My primary book only. All the rest or digital or softcover.

  18. Another good story BD.

    By the way, what is everyone’s opinion on the correlation between girls having one or more visible tattoos and being more open to sex?  Are women with tats really easier?

  19. Do you think it helps asking her to send you them?

    No, it hurts. Bad frame. Too needy. You shouldn’t care; that’s attractive.
    Well, the only reason why they send those things is to get your validation, let’s say: to liberate their ego from the anxiety-inducing possibility you would not greet their pics with the avalanche of “sexy!” and “beautiful”! their orbiters do.
    Soon as you say “sexy!” and “beautiful!” you are done.
    Just feign you are unfazed.

  20. You mentioned that very few girls would get back to you as a 36 year old. I am also 36 and although I’ve not really tried internet dating, I’ve found that this age group are really receptive when out in bars/clubs/coffee shops, to the point that my age actually seems more of an advantage than a hinderance.

    Have you had a similar experience with this?

  21. with the continual decline of the West and our country continually turning more Leftist/Progressive would you say ASD for younger chicks may go up or down in the next 10 years or so?

    Its gonna go down, but because those kinds of philosophies are not implemented too well, we’re gonna see some new kind of moral subjugation presented by female supremacists. Indeed, chicks will be “allowed” to be horny, but if a man is horny it will be a bad thing. And since women don’t have a natural tendency to be assertive…

    Fortunately, this won’t really be a thing for another couple of decades, if that. In *some* western colleges it is happening now, but not as bad as what I am predicting.

  22. I share the same experience as Mike. I don’t know about online game, but on night game, it is easier to pick up very young girls (18-22) than not so young (older than 25). I’m 31.

  23. You mentioned that very few girls would get back to you as a 36 year old. I am also 36 and although I’ve not really tried internet dating, I’ve found that this age group are really receptive when out in bars/clubs/coffee shops, to the point that my age actually seems more of an advantage than a hinderance.
    Have you had a similar experience with this?

    Mike I dated nothing but VYW aged 16-22 (16 is legal in my country) up until I was your age. As you say, it was no problem getting them even at 36. Things seemed to change after my 37th birthday and got a lot harder but I still occasionally manage to have sex with one even though I’m now almost 42. Keep doing it while you can! Older women just can’t compare.

  24. Reading BD describe the red head all I could think is “this gal is a walking hot mess, and somewhere there’s some poor bastard putting her on a pedestal, thinking about a white picket fence, and imagines growing old with her.”

    Oddly enough she was trying to boyfriend up BD!

    Great article.

  25. Have you had a similar experience with this?

    I never do night game and a rarely do daygame, but back when I was in my mid and late thrities, I cleaned up using younger-woman social circle game, yes.

    As I’ve said before, I think a man’s perceived maximum physical appearance peaks at age 37. Men in their late thirties, on the overall, look better than men who are younger and men who are older. So yes, mid-late thirties is indeed the physical sweet spot.

    Reading BD describe the red head all I could think is “this gal is a walking hot mess, and somewhere there’s some poor bastard putting her on a pedestal, thinking about a white picket fence, and imagines growing old with her.”

    Never never been that big a of beta.

  26. No, not you BD.

    Im just saying there is (or was) some starry eyed schlep pining away for her, while you were screwing her.

    because she’s that ONE SPECIAL GIRL.

    And clearly she’s just a chick.

     

  27. Reading BD describe the red head all I could think is “this gal is a walking hot mess, and somewhere there’s some poor bastard putting her on a pedestal, thinking about a white picket fence, and imagines growing old with her.”
    Oddly enough she was trying to boyfriend up BD!

    That’s because neediness (pursuing a partner for emotional satisfaction, which is what people are tricked into believing they will have if they have a family and stuff) is a female trait. But because of monogamy being pushed as a narrative for many millennia (I affectionately call it “Crush Culture”), most guys now have become just as needy, than women, if not more.

  28. Great tale, as always! The part where you go check on something work related while she’s with you called my attention. Would you still do that?

  29. The part where you go check on something work related while she’s with you called my attention. Would you still do that?

    Of course. It’s great frame and great EFA-setting.

  30. Let’s say a WYW told 10 of her WYW friend that a “creepy older guy” messaged her. Who cares? Hell, if word would spread, you’d even have some pre-selection since they’ve already heard about you.

    And even if she does, she isn’t likely to go into specifics about who the “creepy older guy” was if it was just a matter of one message.

  31. Mike I dated nothing but VYW aged 16-22 (16 is legal in my country) up until I was your age. As you say, it was no problem getting them even at 36. Things seemed to change after my 37th birthday and got a lot harder but I still occasionally manage to have sex with one even though I’m now almost 42. Keep doing it while you can! Older women just can’t compare.

    Sparks, why do you reckon this was; did the transition from mid to late 30’s make that much of a difference for you?  It appears that Blackdragon seems to have had a very difference experience?

  32. I love reading these.

    And they parallel my experiences to the tee.

    But at this stage in the game, after forty, I feel like for all the trouble it’s worth it is easier to pay for it. Especially if you live in the United States where dating has become everything except what is was intended to be…

    Fun.

    If you like Latinas, even better because you can visit Mexico, Latin, or South America.

    Better to just focus on your work and the money and realize sometimes you’ll feel lonely.

    Even though, at the end of the day, a lot of us want a meaningful relationship it is very difficult. It’s just the times we live in now. It sucks.

    But I guarantee you that no one has a monopoly on fun and happiness for those of you that have the fear of missing out on something. And married people are quite reserved about saying how much their marriage sucks. So statistical and data can be erroneous, skewed, and just complete and utter bullshit.

     

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