Here’s a common question I receive. Today’s topic is not about the specific question, but the larger issue surrounding it.

Hey BD, I scheduled a first date with a new girl and she seems interested. We texted the day before the date and she said her car is in the shop and she can’t drive, so she needs me to pick her up for the date and then drop her back off. I wanted to check with you about this because while she seems to have a valid logistical problem, picking her up and dropping her off seems too compliant and too beta. Should I do this? Or should I just next her?

Regardless of the answer to this question, and whatever answer you think is the right answer, this is a very good, very valid question. It’s one of those questions where the guy asking is covering all the possible variables in a comprehensive way. Good stuff. If you’re asking questions like this, you’re on the right path.

There is a correct answer to the above question. Do you know what it is? Take a guess.

The answer is to go pick her up. I’ll explain why.

When To Be Compliant

As I talk about in great detail in my primary dating manual, Get To Sex Fast, women are extremely picky and have their highest levels of ASD and buyer’s remorse before you have sex with them two times. Once you have sex with her two times on two separate occasions, her ASD and pickiness for you drops about 80-90%, and she will now tolerate all kinds of behaviors from you she would never tolerate before you had sex with her twice. It’s a hard-coded biological aspect of women, at least that’s my theory. (Yes, there are always unusual exceptions to every rule, so there can be odd times a woman has sex with you two or three times and then ghosts you, but these situations are rare, and usually indicative of you doing something very wrong.)

Pink Firefly recently listened to a radio show where they were interviewing a woman who ghosted a guy after the first date. During this date, they went back to his place, had sex (which is good), and then spent the night together (which is very bad; never spend the night with a woman the first time you have sex with her; this sends the entirely wrong EFA).

The reason she ghosted him the next morning after she left, and stopped returning his texts? He had bad gas “all night” while he slept.

If you ask most women’s opinion on this, they would probably agree with her. “Ew, yeah, that’s gross. I don’t want to date a guy who farts all the time!”

However, imagine if this guy had not spent the night with her, had sex with her four or five more times, and then they spent the night together where he farted in his sleep a lot. Would she care?

Nope. Sure, she might tease him about it the next morning, or even complain about it, but she wouldn’t stop seeing him. Oh no. She’s locked in now. She isn’t going anywhere regardless of his noisy, nocturnal butthole, at least for a while.

I even told this to Pink Firefly as she relayed the story. “Yeah,” I said, “That would gross you out the first time you had sex with him, but if you had fucked him four more times and then he farted, you wouldn’t care at all.” She didn’t disagree because she knows how women work as well as I do.

This means that if you are compliant on something like picking her up for the first date when she has no car, yes, it’s a slightly beta move and not very attractive. The problem is if you go all Alpha and refuse to pick her up, it may piss her off or turn her off to the point where she just blows you off and goes to the next guy on her list (and all women have a list whether they know it or not) when she would have had sex with you anyway.

So the correct move is to cheerfully agree to pick her up and drop her off for the first date, if she really needs it, while keeping all the usual 85/15 player/provider frames. Then get to sex with her twice as fast as you possibly can. Then, at that point, once Lock-In has been achieved and you have moved from seduction mode into relationship management mode, you can tell her that transportation to and from your place is her problem, and that she needs to figure that out.

If you’ve followed all of my other advice about the proper structure of first and second dates, making her cum during sex, keeping a proper EFA, and so on, she might complain a little about this, but she will figure it out and keep seeing you. Whereas if you had said this to her prior to Lock-In, she would have called you an asshole and moved on.

I have done this many times with many women over the years. There are times I’ve been very nice, even borderline beta, with certain aspects of the logistics pre-Lock-In, on those first one to three dates, just so I can get her locked in (sex twice) so I can relax and let the flow of the long-term, Alpha 2.0, nonmonogamous relationship begin.

Have Standards!

This does not mean you do everything a woman wants pre-Lock-In and kiss her ass. Oh, no no no. That’s beta shit. As always, you need to set a few hard standards for your behaviors and logistics that you won’t cross no matter how hot she is or what she demands. I have many of them, but I’ll give you two simple examples.

The most obvious one is how much money I’ll spend on a woman pre-Lock-In. If some girl demands, not asks for, but demands a full-on dinner date for the first date, before we’ve ever had sex, then with all due respect, she can go to hell. I don’t care how hot she is or how smart she is or any other aspect. I’m going to politely tell her I’m not the man she’s looking for and then move on. As I’ve said perhaps thousands of times over the years, spending money on women pre-sex is insane, something only desperate beta males do (or Alpha Male 1.0’s with oneitis). After we’ve had sex and I know the odds are good she’s going to actually stick around for a while, the spending money on her is fine if she’s at the MLTR level. But before that? Fuck no.

Another standard I have, one I’ve talked about a few times before, is that I’m happy to date any woman who lives within 50 minutes driving distance of my house. Beyond 50 minutes, no. I know there are lots of guys who date women who live an hour, two hours, even three hours away, and I think these men are insane. Don’t you have anything better to do with your time? Are you telling me there aren’t any other women as cute as her who live closer? Scarcity mindset. But I digress.

Within the 50 minute radius, pre-Lock-In, I’m very nice. If a woman needs me to go pick her up and drop her off, no problem sweetheart. Just give me your address and I’ll be there. But if she lives longer than 50 minutes away, sorry darling, you’re too far, and since I don’t do one night stands, I have no interest in carrying on a long-term nonmonogamous relationship with a woman who lives that far away.

Once a woman who lives within 50 minutes of my house has sex with me twice, now she’s locked in. When she wants to come over for the third time for sex, I’m going to tell her that she needs to figure out transportation on her own, at least to some degree, even if it’s just one way.

Maybe she needs to get a ride from one of her friend zone beta male orbiters to my house, and then I’ll drop her off afterwards. Pre-Lock-In, this demand would cause her to ghost me and never see me again, but now that she’s had sex with me twice, she’s more than happy to comply. Again, she might bitch and moan about it for a minute, but she’ll still do it. I’ve done this with women bazillions of times over the last 11 years and never had a problem.

This doesn’t apply to just transportation logistics. It can apply to all kinds of minor requests women make during the first and second date process. As long as you adhere to your standards and have a strong, Alpha 2.0 EFA, be nice about the logistics during this phase, then Alpha-up after Lock-In for proper relationship management.

87 Comments on “Being Compliant on Dates vs. in a Relationship

  1. @BD

    During this date, they went back to his place, had sex (which is good), and then spent the night together (which is very bad; never spend the night with a woman the first time you have sex with her; this sends the entirely wrong EFA).

    This rule of yours has always bewildered me. Spending the night together is personally one of my favourite things, and I have done it with many girls during our first time with no negative consequences. How does it affect your EFA?

    As for the transportation, call me old-fashioned but I like to take care of my women and make sure they get home safe. It is gentlemanly and no hassle at all if they don’t live too far away (50 mins is pushing it a bit though, I must admit).

  2. BD

    Here goes beta question.

    If this guy is going to get this little bit compliant and being this a first date, should he bend the no-sex-on-first-date best practice (if sex opportunity arises) so he can speed up lock-in?

    If he skips sex just for rule sake won’t he be hitting “waiting” botton?

  3. Hey BD, can you make another post about other important books from your life,i saw your old post with “The 17 most  useful books” and i read them,and maybe you can make another post with top books.

  4. One thing I never do as far as logistics go with any level of girl is take her to or  pick her up from an airport.  With so many options from the city to get there,(Uber, Lyft, public transit) there is no good reason to make someone go through that pain in the ass. But of course this is often a shit test of theirs to see how compliant you are.

  5. See Black Dragon the problem is if you live in California.. it can take you over an hour to get somewhere with traffic. YES, even outside of LA! Just because of population density and constant construction that our CA Government seems to never stop. So we kinda have to be more chill on this. But as far as an FB trying to Fuck after the 1st time? Fuck No LOL.

    I most def see scenarios where transportation is an issue short term (hence car repairs and such) or VYW who just don’t have a Car. But yea Beyond occasionally and after the “Lock In”.. Fuck That lol

    Off Topic Question: Black Dragon can we ever get photo comments like Facebook has in here?

  6. @BD, the first two time you have sex with somebody should be dominant and rough (not violent or something crazy)if you like to have sex like this all the time,or should be something soft,vanilla sex?I mean should you show your true color from the beginning or after the Pre-Lock-In?

    And in my life i dated only submissive women,if you have sex with a dominant women,she will be dominant in bed or submissive.I mean she will like to be commanded and you to take charge of everything ,to lead?

    And another post with other books besides those 17 will be very cool.

  7. During this date, they went back to his place, had sex (which is good), and then spent the night together (which is very bad; never spend the night with a woman the first time you have sex with her; this sends the entirely wrong EFA).

    This rule of yours has always bewildered me. Spending the night together is personally one of my favourite things, and I have done it with many girls during our first time with no negative consequences. How does it affect your EFA?

    As for the transportation, call me old-fashioned but I like to take care of my women and make sure they get home safe. It is gentlemanly and no hassle at all if they don’t live too far away (50 mins is pushing it a bit though, I must admit).

    I must admit I have the same or similar question.  I really enjoy spending the night with the women I am seeing.  One I have seen for 4 years now, with a 1.5 year lsnfte of which we just got back together a month ago, has never once spent the night with me.  However, my mltr and I spend the night together a little more than half the time, and the other half would be when we are together during the work week, we do not stay overnight.  I haven’t had a problem with that.  However with most of my women, I have spent the night with them the first time we had sex.  For me it is usually very late.  Most of them I meet in some sort of night game, and we don’t even begin sex until the early hours of the morning.  There’s almost no way I can just tell them to leave at that point, and I don’t even feel it makes sense when I’m at their house the first time, to up and leave at 5am or whenever we are done having sex.  It might be an exception since I mostly do night game, but I think they understand that just because they stayed the night with me, it doesn’t mean much other than logistically, it’s almost understood that we will stay the night together because both are probably buzzed and shouldn’t be driving and its the wee hours of the morning.  I don’t know.  I could probably use a little more insight in to what is best practice for my situation.

  8. It’s pretty clear that overnighters are perfectly acceptable after a few lock-in fucks and provided she is more than a FB.

  9. If he’s the one that asked her out, he should be the one picking her up and dropping her off regardless. I would next the one who refused to do this.

  10. call me old-fashioned

    Oh no!

    Just……….NO!!!

    You’re about to say something female supremacist, aren’t you? Like, “the woman is the queen and the man is her faithful dog?”

    but I like to take care of my women

    HAHA!

    1. Are they children?

    2. Are they disabled?

    3. Are they royalty?

    4. Are you a servant?

    and make sure they get home safe.

    1. Has she had sex with you?

    2. What has she done to earn your services as an unpaid bodyguard?

    3. Do you ask for any compensation?

    It is gentlemanly

    CRINGE!!!!

    “I’m a Gentleman” – The cry of the chivalrous, female supremacist beta.

    Do you bring flowers and chocolates too? How about opening the door for her and throwing down your jacket on a puddle so that your princess doesn’t ruin her shoes?

    LMFAO!!!!!!

     

  11. If he’s the one that asked her out, he should be the one picking her up and dropping her off regardless. I would next the one who refused to do this.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    What’s wrong, sweetheart? Saving your precious gas for something that’s “actually important?” Or do you just enjoy being dependent on the man? Or…..do you have delusions of royalty?

    If you think your time is more valuable than the man’s, the only men you’ll ever have are betas (or seriously old fashioned alpha 1.0s). Yuck!

     

     

     

  12. If a girl is chronically late by 15 minutes, tell her to show up 15 minutes earlier than normal and you show up at the right time. Showing up late is rude but I’d say 90% of my dates women show up late. Never bothered me cause I planned for them to be late.

  13. Jack, It’s not a chivalry thing. It’s about manners.

    I’d say if the woman asks him out, she picks him up.
     

  14. @Jack

    If I am dating someone, I like to make sure they get home safe, when they are going home late at night and don’t have their own car. Sometimes I don’t drive them home but call a cab, take a note of cab’s number plates and ask them to text me when they get home to make sure they are fine. It’s just a bit of care for my girls, that’s all.

    1. Has she had sex with you?
    2. What has she done to earn your services as an unpaid bodyguard?

    1. Obviously.

    2. Nothing. It’s just something I enjoy doing. The biggest compliment I’ve ever heard is “I feel safe with you”. Gender roles, I know, but I enjoy it. The same way as some of them enjoy cooking for me.

    Do you bring flowers and chocolates too? How about opening the door for her and throwing down your jacket on a puddle so that your princess doesn’t ruin her shoes?

    Never give flowers, occasionally open doors (without jacket throwing, you will be disappointed to learn). Again, don’t see nothing wrong with being a bit of a gentleman and showing good manners.

    And Jack, I am all for a good debate, but keep yourself in check, ok? I am not judging your views, so please don’t judge mine. If you have questions, feel free to ask, but don’t be a sarcastic prick about it, ok? Otherwise I will just start ignoring you.

  15. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I know this a seduction/red pill blog, but honestly don’t know why you insist (or what you gain, pleasure I’m guessing) on badgering betas and women who prefer betas. If I recall, she has been with a beta for 10+ years and rather enjoys it, so obviously some people from both genders are happy with their preferences.

    I would really like to see you in ten, fifteen or twenty years, and see if your mindset and or preferences change/don’t change. Maybe they will, maybe they won’t. I’m guessing sex will become less and less important for you as time goes on. And you will likely have to consider sugar baby game or provider game at some point, but I suppose time will tell. Would be nice to follow your aging process on your blog, and what you do to cope with it. I’m sure we can learn a lot from it, kind of like we are learning from what BD is going through as he ages.

  16. This rule of yours has always bewildered me. Spending the night together is personally one of my favourite things, and I have done it with many girls during our first time with no negative consequences. How does it affect your EFA?

     

    Look I’m only 30 years old and often a dingus when it comes to EFA (I usually advertise a perfectly gray ‘what the fuck are we?’ frame at all times, when really I usually want something strictly casual — I’m just not good at that talk).

     

    But uh … you’re kidding, right?

    Even women know that “spending the night” means DAAAAAW …. i “wuv” you …. I want to buy you teddy bears and chocolates and cuddle with you and get married and Oh Christmas tree, Oh Christmas tree!!!

    A slight exaggeration but it means you are Mr. Serious Relationship. Why would you advertise that frame after ONE sweaty night together? Again, even most WOMEN — unless extremely thirsty for marriage and kids with practically any decent man — will not spend the night on the first night. It’s too desperate and too serious.

    That’s just the way things are. But really — after the sex, the “cuddling” is often relationship territory. Even though you may get away with it with FBs, it can lead that way. The first night or second night means you’re moving fast into cuddle wuddle territory.

  17. BD,

    One of the issues that I have come across is women who insist on some type of event date. I always start with the short coffee date, but oftentimes they want  an event date for the second date.

    So my question is how do you go about handling a situation where the woman is asking you to do something that is beta before you have had sex twice (or even once)? It seems very tricky to pull it off without seeming like an asshole.

    This question also applies to things like spending the night. If the woman is already in bed and its late how can you get her to leave without coming off as a jerk? I know it’s possible so I would love to hear your or other guys’ tactics on this.

  18. @Johny

    Even women know that “spending the night” means DAAAAAW …. i “wuv” you …. I want to buy you teddy bears and chocolates and cuddle with you and get married and Oh Christmas tree, Oh Christmas tree!!!

    I don’t think of it that way at all. Nobody is talking about love or marriage. To me it just feels weird sending them home at 2am after we have sex for the first time. It’s just… rude?…

  19. This rule of yours has always bewildered me. Spending the night together is personally one of my favourite things

    What you personally like to do has nothing to do with what generates sexual attraction and low-drama behavior from women. Read this.

    and I have done it with many girls during our first time with no negative consequences.

    I would challenge that. If you actually went through how all these women ended up, I’m quite sure I could point out serious problems in your relationship(s) with them. I’m not going to do that in these comments here, I just know the odds of what you just said being 100% accurate are quite low, unless your tolerance for drama and/or very short-term relationships is much higher than mine.

    How does it affect your EFA?

    Is spending the night with a woman in your bed something a boyfriend would do or a just a guy she’s dating would do? Is it more provider or more player? Is it 85/15 or is it more like 40/60?

    As for the transportation, call me old-fashioned but I like to take care of my women

    Again, what you personally like to do has nothing to do with what generates sexual attraction and low-drama behavior from women. Read this.

    It is gentlemanly

    Jack is correct about that word. In the 1950’s it had great meaning men needed to heed. Today it’s women’s word for beta. You should avoid this label if you want fast sex that turns into long-term nonmonogamous relationships.

    If this guy is going to get this little bit compliant and being this a first date, should he bend the no-sex-on-first-date best practice (if sex opportunity arises) so he can speed up lock-in?

    Sex on first dates is too playerish and actually damages lock-in in many cases, because it creates buyer’s remorse, again, as I talked about here.

    Number one complaint from successful players I hear: “I can fuck girls on the first date, but then they ghost me!” Yup, because you’re fucking them on the first date. If your goal is one night stands, then great, go for it. But if your goal is multiple long-term relationships, sex on the second date tends to be a little safer (yes, there are always exceptions); just make sure that first and second date are as short and cheap as possible.

    Hey BD, can you make another post about other important books from your life,i saw your old post with “The 17 most  useful books” and i read them,and maybe you can make another post with top books.

    Ok. Added to the list.

    Black Dragon can we ever get photo comments like Facebook has in here?

    Not unless I get a hell of a lot more of requests for it. You’re the first person in history to ask for such a thing. Most guys here don’t want photos.

    @BD, the first two time you have sex with somebody should be dominant and rough (not violent or something crazy)if you like to have sex like this all the time,or should be something soft,vanilla sex?I mean should you show your true color from the beginning or after the Pre-Lock-In?

    If you like it rough, be rough, but don’t be too rough. Assure her that you’re not going to hurt her, and don’t try anything weird. I like it very rough, but if I’m not careful I will actually scare women into never seeing me again even if they were attracted to me. (Even PF told me later that she seriously considered not seeing me again after the first time we had sex, because I was “louder than any other man” and “too dominant” and “too much.” Other women have said similar, and I know I’ve lost out on women because of this.)

    So don’t be vanilla, but be “lightly rough” if you like the rough stuff.

    However with most of my women, I have spent the night with them the first time we had sex.  For me it is usually very late.  Most of them I meet in some sort of night game, and we don’t even begin sex until the early hours of the morning.  There’s almost no way I can just tell them to leave at that point

    I address exactly this in Get To Sex Fast. CONTROL YOUR LOGISTICS. If you’re not having sex until 5am when she can’t go home, STOP FUCKING DOING THAT.

    Your laziness does not justify doing things that are less likely to create and maintain attraction and low-drama behavior from women.

    It might be an exception since I mostly do night game

    Then I really can’t comment. But what I said above still stands.

    If he’s the one that asked her out, he should be the one picking her up and dropping her off regardless.

    The vast majority of women I’ve had sex with, including the ones who became long-term relationships, I did not drive them to and from the first or second date. Indeed, they were the odd exception. So you’re stating a personal preference that has little to do with most women (provided the man isn’t an total asshole of course).

    One of the issues that I have come across is women who insist on some type of event date. I always start with the short coffee date, but oftentimes they want  an event date for the second date.

    If they ask, just insist on a date at your place or another bar. If they demand this, next them and move on. And remember to keep your women to under age 33, since you’ll have much less of a problem with that particular demand.

    So my question is how do you go about handling a situation where the woman is asking you to do something that is beta before you have had sex twice (or even once)? It seems very tricky to pull it off without seeming like an asshole.

    “Let’s just hang out at my place / cool bar. I’m going to be pretty tired on Thursday anyway.”

    Did that sound like an asshole?

    This question also applies to things like spending the night. If the woman is already in bed and its late how can you get her to leave without coming off as a jerk? I know it’s possible so I would love to hear your or other guys’ tactics on this.

    1. Avoid fucking women in your bed the first time you have sex. I almost never do. I usually fuck them on the floor with a blanket. Again, EFA, EFA, EFA, EFA! You’re not her fucking boyfriend! Stop doing shit her boyfriend would do!

    2. As I told the guy above, avoid fucking women for the first time at super late hours in the evening (if you do night game, I guess you’re fucked on this and I can’t help you). It is extremely rare for me have first-time sex with a woman after 9pm. This is by design.

    3. Set your time constraints as soon as she walks in the door. “So hey, I have to get up tomorrow morning, so we’ll have to wrap this up by about 11ish. Is that okay?”

    To me it just feels weird sending them home at 2am after we have sex for the first time.

    What I just said above, twice. If you’re regularly fucking women after 2am, CONTROL YOUR LOGISTICS!

  20. From experience: don’t even pay for an Uber for a new girl you’ve not had one round of sex with. Suggest to her that you will gladly drop her off at her place if she pay for her own Uber to come to yours.

    One of my mentors used to say: a man who does not have his own car, will battle to have sex with desirable women. Having a car, even a cheap old runner (keep it clean and well serviced) will rescue you on many situations with women. Also never allow your frame to get distorted by the perception that you think women will have of your ride. Always treat cars as things, but be smart and allow yourself a good quality one when its affordable.

    BD’s point about never allowing a new girl to sleep over is solid. Whenever a new woman sleeps over at your place, she will have a full opportunity to check you out to the finest forensic detail. She will burst your mystery. Your daily habits, even your waste bin in the bathroom is all there for her to inspect.  This is bad. I don’t know how many new girls left my pad at 4AM just so I could avoid this trap. Once a girl think she ‘knows’ you, man your balls are already in her purse. Don’t fool yourself that you will have everything in order before she arrives. If you do, and even drop the toilet seat, you’ve positioned yourself as a likely beta provider.  This could ultimately signal to her that you may be a pot of gold, another trap.

    Pace your ass, stay in control and let her appreciate your unique alpha frame.

     

  21. BD:  “Avoid fucking women in your bed the first time you have sex. I almost never do. I usually fuck them on the floor with a blanket. Again, EFA, EFA, EFA, EFA! You’re not her fucking boyfriend! Stop doing shit her boyfriend would do!”

    This is such a great observation, because it reframes my whole thinking about everything.  It would never have occurred to me that something as automatic as having first-time sex in my bed would be establishing the wrong frame.  If I may make a suggestion, this would be a great concept to build a whole post around.  (Do you already have a book chapter about it?)

    (A similarly mind-blowing concept when I first heard it from you was the need to distinguish between FBs and MLTRs from the start of the relationship, and not do things with FBs like extended dates or overnight cuddling that would confuse them about their role in your life.  It’s so counterintuitive that “default” behaviors I’d never given any thought to could be so counterproductive.)

     

  22. I don’t have an issue with picking up a girl for a date in my car… for the second date, not the first.  Granted I drive a brand new luxury car, but that is beside the point unless you have a filthy shitty car.  On the first date, most girls don’t want to be picked up anyway.  They don’t know you yet, and may be afraid you’ll show up in a creeper van with no windows. But if your second date is an actual date, say drinks at a bar, picking her up can increase your options when you bounce to the next venue or take her home.  It can also help you rescue a date that didn’t go very well because of a poor choice of location (i.e. too much noise to talk).

    You don’t have to drive separately so the conversation does not have to run cold and you have a captive audience.  You can go to her place or yours or even do it in the car if either venue is not feasible.  Or you can pull a good ol’ “Rooshv” standby and ask to use her bathroom when you approach her place to drop her off, thereby giving her plausible deniability, and then escalate once inside. I did this last week and ended up with a lay that otherwise might not have happened until the third date.  Another time, I was driving a 23 year old home after a second date and I told her “Let’s get a room, you down?” She lived with her parents and I had a teenage son with his friends at home (ya I’m 42). She said “yes,” I pulled over and whipped out Priceline Express, and that was the beginning of a plate.  Again, it only happened because we were in my car, she was my captive audience, and we had privacy.

     

     

  23.  If I may make a suggestion, this would be a great concept to build a whole post around.  (Do you already have a book chapter about it?)

    I sort of already addressed that here, though not directly.

    A similarly mind-blowing concept when I first heard it from you was the need to distinguish between FBs and MLTRs from the start of the relationship, and not do things with FBs like extended dates or overnight cuddling that would confuse them about their role in your life.  It’s so counterintuitive that “default” behaviors I’d never given any thought to could be so counterproductive.

    Yes, exactly.

    The best way I heard it described is that during the courting process, the things you naturally feel compelled to do (mostly because of SP and OBW) are exactly the things you shouldn’t do.

  24. It would never have occurred to me that something as automatic as having first-time sex in my bed would be establishing the wrong frame.  If I may make a suggestion, this would be a great concept to build a whole post around.

  25. 2. As I told the guy above, avoid fucking women for the first time at super late hours in the evening (if you do night game, I guess you’re fucked on this and I can’t help you). It is extremely rare for me have first-time sex with a woman before after 9pm. This is by design.

    I’m assuming this is a typo, based on you trying to get them out by 11? And is this only before lock in, or every time they come over? I remember reading a post of yours stating that you always try to go to sleep by twelve every night.

  26. I’m assuming this is a typo, based on you trying to get them out by 11?

    Sorry, yes, and fixed.

    And is this only before lock in, or every time they come over?

    Every time I have sex with anyone regardless of the context, barring unusual exceptions to the rule.

    I remember reading a post of yours stating that you always try to go to sleep by twelve every night.

    Correct. I run three companies, have children, travel a lot, have sex with multiple women, have a new marriage to work on, trying to lose weight, and so on. I have a lot of shit to do and need to be productive seven days a week, so I don’t have the luxury of staying up until 2am or whatever just because I want to get laid. Getting laid at 9pm, 6pm, hell even 2pm has never been a problem for me.

  27. When it comes to those far off 50 minute women do you typically try and make sure the sex happens at their place to avoid spending that lengthy time with her pre-lockin sitting in the car together? I would think that quality first date locations would be hard if you are (presumably) heading that far out of the city as well.

  28. BD been following your articles for close to a yr now and read your book.  What are your top 3 reasons your style of game is to NOT attempt for sex on 1st date? Is the only thing you do on 1st date regarding sex is try to bring it up in conversation a little bit? Also do u ever go for kiss at a minimum on 1st date or do anything to build sexual tension?

  29. BD been following your articles for close to a yr now and read your book.  What are your top 3 reasons your style of game is to NOT attempt for sex on 1st date? Is the only thing you do on 1st date regarding sex is try to bring it up in conversation a little bit? Also do u ever go for kiss at a minimum on 1st date or do anything to build sexual tension?

    This reminds me a time around 7 years ago when I run SEO business.

    What I did to start it up is, I spilt all the beans on the forum.

    The whole system I used to rank affiliate sites very easily (back then). Step by step.

    And then, for a few years, I answered specific question about the system.

    And there were always some people periodically asking me, why this step in there, and what are the reasons this step is here, etc, etc, etc.

    The system is the system is the system. It delivers the results it delivers because it was tested and it works.

    You can follow the system and get results or you can fuck with the system and fail to get results.

    Pick your poison.

  30. When it comes to those far off 50 minute women do you typically try and make sure the sex happens at their place to avoid spending that lengthy time with her pre-lockin sitting in the car together?

    No, I wouldn’t treat it any differently, but I can’t remember the last time if I drove out to pick up a woman who was 50 minutes away.

    What are your top 3 reasons your style of game is to NOT attempt for sex on 1st date?

    1. It’s too hard. Too much ASD and Societal Programming to overcome when you try to fuck on the first date. I don’t like hard. I like easy.

    2. It takes too long. Most first dates that actually end in sex take many hours. I like 1 hour for date one and 2 hours for date two. Three hours over two dates is better than one date that takes four or five hours (or longer). I don’t have that kind of time; I have better things to do.

    3. Too high odds for buyer’s remorse. I want to fuck her over and over again for 10+ years, not just once. First date lays boost the odds that she’ll ghost you the next day.

    Is the only thing you do on 1st date regarding sex is try to bring it up in conversation a little bit?

    That, plus kino, plus a sexual frame.

    Also do u ever go for kiss at a minimum on 1st date or do anything to build sexual tension?

    I do not kiss on first dates and you shouldn’t either, for numerous reasons I’ve already talked about at this blog, including recently.

    I build sexual tension on the first date with a strong sexual frame, kino, and sex talk, then leave her on a high point after 1 hour (instead of deflating all the tension by kissing her).

  31. @ash – Jack, It’s not a chivalry thing. It’s about manners. I’d say if the woman asks him out, she picks him up.

    I am reminded of that quote by Anatole France:

    ‘The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.’

    The rule sounds fair but it isn’t, because it applies to a situation that only one party ever finds themselves in.

  32. BD’s point about never allowing a new girl to sleep over is solid. Whenever a new woman sleeps over at your place, she will have a full opportunity to check you out to the finest forensic detail. She will burst your mystery. Your daily habits, even your waste bin in the bathroom is all there for her to inspect.  This is bad.

    She will also leave personal items for other girls to find. Women mark their territory with lost earrings, compact brushes (found one in my car, once). It’s instinctive.

  33. Avoid fucking women in your bed the first time you have sex. I almost never do. I usually fuck them on the floor with a blanket. Again, EFA, EFA, EFA, EFA! You’re not her fucking boyfriend! Stop doing shit her boyfriend would do!

    This is complete overkill.

    Not letting her spend the night – sure, I get it, but fucking her on the floor on a blanket because you’re afraid that otherwise you’d be giving off “boyfriend” vibes is preposterous.

    Guarantee that if you ran the numbers, it wouldn’t make a difference.

  34. Not letting her spend the night – sure, I get it, but fucking her on the floor on a blanket because you’re afraid that otherwise you’d be giving off “boyfriend” vibes is preposterous.

    It’s an issue of degree. What is more boyfriend-like? Fucking in your bed or fucking on the floor? Which is a boyfriend more likely to do? What is better for a non-boyfriend, nonmonogamous EFA you’re trying to establish?

    It’s about doing everything possible to place the odds in your favor. Read this.

    Guarantee that if you ran the numbers, it wouldn’t make a difference.

    In terms of how long the relationship lasts and how soon it would take for betaization to kick in, yes indeed it would affect the numbers, at least to some degree, assuming you had enough FB and MLTR relationships as a basis for comparison. And yes, it’s quite true that if you’re at an advanced level of this stuff and did 100% of everything else right it probably wouldn’t make a difference, but very few of the men reading this blog are in that category, and need to do as many things correctly as they can.

    Master the rules before you break them, but don’t break them until then.

  35. If I am dating someone,

    That’s not what we’re talking about. I wasn’t referring to regular, or already established, dating. We are talking about the first date and the pre-sex phase.

    I like to make sure they get home safe,

    This is beta and female supremacist. She’s not your 6 year old daughter. Giving an adult woman the privileges of a child in addition to adult rights and equality is, by definition, supremacist! Female supremacy is a beta male trait. You would never show such consideration to, or condescending patronization of, another man. You are thus treating women better than men, which makes you, by objective definition, an anti-male bigot.

    when they are going home late at night and don’t have their own car.

    They’re adults, dude! Maybe suggest to them to invest in a gun, or at least some pepper spray! What you’re practicing is implicit philosophical pedophilia (not to be confused with literal pedophilia, of course), otherwise known as traditional conservatism, or traditional matriarchy (what retarded feminists call patriarchy)!

    Sometimes I don’t drive them home but call a cab,

    Please tell me you at least make them pay for it!

    take a note of cab’s number plates

    What????? Please distinguish this from how you would treat a 12 year old daughter!

    and ask them to text me when they get home to make sure they are fine.

    Oh dearest god! I have no words man! Words have failed me!

    So……you have sex with her, while, at the same time, treating her like an 11 year old daughter. Creepy shit!

    Obviously, I’m nowhere near accusing you of being an actual pedophile (such an accusation would be absurd), but on the metaphoric/philosophical plane, this is just……creepy shit! And female supremacist/tradcon!

    I’ve noticed that chivalrous conservatives enjoy cup caking the women they sleep with the same way I would cup cake a 9 year old daughter (if I had one).

    I sincerely apologize if the analogy is over the top for you, but I just can’t bring myself to avoid being creeped out by this type of genuinely infantile treatment of adult women (whom you wish to have sex with, no less).   

    It’s just a bit of care for my girls, that’s all.

    A bit??? A BIT????

    No, no, no, no, no, no, no!!!! Telling her “drive safe” or “be careful going home,” would be classified as “a bit.” Suggesting that she purchase a gun, or some pepper spray, would be “a bit” caring.

    What you’re doing, my good chivalrous gentleman sir, by writing down the fucking license plate of the cab, paying for the cab, and asking her to text you when she gets home to make sure no one killed her (god fuck me!), is the behavior of a parent!

    Remember, she’s not your girlfriend even. This is just the first date! Do you also sing her a lullaby over the phone so she can feel safe going to sleep in the dark?

    1. Obviously.

    Hold on! The reason I asked whether or not you’re having sex with her is because we’re talking right now about the first few dates (pre-sex). Obviously, I wouldn’t act like an overprotective parent even post-sex, but still, it’s even worse if you’re acting in this “traditional” manner pre-sex. Most women will think you’re a beta chump!

    2. Nothing. It’s just something I enjoy doing.

    Are there any women whom you enjoy treating like adults and NOT bestowing upon them the privileges of children? Just asking.

    The biggest compliment I’ve ever heard is “I feel safe with you”. Gender roles, I know, but I enjoy it.

    Heh! A woman should feel physically and emotionally safe with you, but only in terms of not seeing you as a threat. By contrast, acting like a police officer and taking responsibility for the potentially violent actions of other men (even when you’re not with her) is not your job. Protecting her from the big bad wolf is her responsibility as an adult and as your equal.

    I understand that these dynamics become more fluid or flexible when you fall in love with each other, or enter into a serious relationship, but we’re talking right now about the first fucking date!!!

    The same way as some of them enjoy cooking for me.

    Jesus, this is getting worse and worse and worse, the longer you talk! LOL!

    Dear lord, cooking? Seriously? I understand the occasional treat, but cooking for you on a regular basis? No man! No self-respecting man living in 21st century western civilization has any business outsourcing such an elementary skill to a woman, thus disempowering himself and putting his stomach at the mercy of feminine whims!

    By having women cook for you, pick up your socks for you, do your laundry, make your bed, or perform any other gender neutral task that an adult should be able to perform for himself, you are weakening your own discipline, thus making yourself vulnerable to laziness, and thus, blackmail, since you will put up with more disrespect from her because it’s easier than dumping her and being forced to cook for yourself again with dignity!

    This female imposed laziness ends up solidifying your beta frame, as well as allocating to her all the blackmail material she’ll ever need to keep you nice and docile. Conservative women know this. That’s why they insist on cooking and cleaning for you. It’s a power play!

    At the first insistence, you must say no! And if she insists on doing these things for you very early, that’s a red flag that she’s a gold digger! By insisting on doing everything yourself because you’re not a child, you will frustrate her power game and solidify yourself as an alpha who can never be robbed of his independence, his dignity, or his personal power.

    If she’s a matriarch, this will piss her off, but it will also make her uncontrollably horny for you (while hating herself for it).

    The sexiest words a woman can ever hear – Stop. Mothering. Me. (Credit: Frank Kermit).

    Never give flowers, occasionally open doors (without jacket throwing, you will be disappointed to learn).

    No, I won’t be disappointed. I’m very glad you don’t throw your jacket on puddles like an omega loser. Well done. But still, the opening doors thing stinks of beta butler.

    Again, don’t see nothing wrong with being a bit of a gentleman

    First of all, you’re not “a bit” anything.

    Second of all, in the 1400s, a group of Catholic virgins invented the “gentleman” concept, which is just another word for “slave.” Deferring to women, acting like their butlers, taking responsibility for them, assuming guilt for the actions of other men in the form of protecting women in an unpaid altruistic capacity (even if the women are strangers), treating all women like royalty, bowing down to them and saying “my lady,” etc……….all of this is based on the subconscious desire of virgin losers to get laid, which, even back then, resulted in nothing but the friend zone! Wake up man!

    and showing good manners.

    Oh for fuck sake! “Good manners” are, by definition, gender neutral! So is she showing “bad manners” by refusing to open doors for you, ask you to text her to make sure you got home safe, and failing to protect you from the big bad wolf?

    If it’s gender based, it has nothing to do with manners!

    And Jack, I am all for a good debate, but keep yourself in check, ok?

    No.

    I am not judging your views,

    Why not? That would be a good fight!

    so please don’t judge mine.

    I absolutely will. Because your views are toxic to men reading this blog for the first time who desperately wish to stop being betas and start getting laid. You’re hurting them. So I’m here to help them by making sure they don’t get brainwashed by people like you.

    If you have questions, feel free to ask, but don’t be a sarcastic prick about it, ok?

    It would be better for you to ask me to walk through shards of broken glass barefoot. When I see this level of beta-ness, I must respond forcefully. For the sake of the next generation of seducers!

    Otherwise I will just start ignoring you.

    Dude, you don’t tell a guy that you’re going to start ignoring him. You just do it!

    Respond to me or don’t. That is your right. We all make choices. If you wish to continue this, that’s fine. But if not, my responses to you won’t stop, because I’m not just talking to you. I’m setting an example for a larger and, in many cases, younger audience.

    I’m doing good here and you are a great teaching lesson for the newbies.

    React however you choose. That’s between you and your god!

     

  36. Jack, It’s not a chivalry thing. It’s about manners.

    I’d say if the woman asks him out, she picks him up.

    Heh, heh, heh!

    You mean, in a parallel universe where women ask out men? Wow! Nice compensation!

    Sorry, not buying it. If I’m doing online dating, and I pitch a first meet at Starbucks, I’m not picking up her lazy ass! As my equal, she needs to drive to the date, just like me!

    Her time is NOT more valuable than mine, your thinly disguised matriarchal leanings notwithstanding! Both of us need to have our own cars. Period!

    I have NEVER had a problem with this. No woman has ever demanded that I pick her up in my car for a fucking coffee date. They usually insist that we meet in public for the first time, instead of making themselves vulnerable by putting themselves in my car before they ever met me!

    Maybe it’s a generational thing, or just your ignorance over the nature of online dating.

    In any case, no man with any self respect would make himself dependent on a woman for a car by making her his ride, even if she invited him, before he even knows whether or not she’s a psycho bitch or man-hating #metoo enthusiast! Why would I make myself vulnerable like that by depending on a woman for my fucking transportation?

    In this generation, dates are mutual. No one takes anyone else out. We take ourselves out independently so that we can meet each other as equals on neutral ground.

    If you would actually next a guy for this, you’re either very old, or just a severely old fashioned gal!

     

     

     

  37. I know this a seduction/red pill blog, but honestly don’t know why you insist (or what you gain, pleasure I’m guessing) on badgering betas and women who prefer betas.

    I’m trying to help the newbies who are reading this blog. This is for their benefit and education. I gain a sense of fulfillment through helping people the same way the PUAs helped me when I was asking for it in 2005.

    Plus, yes it’s fun, and I derive a lot of pleasure from pointing out bad advice or bad mindsets.

    If I recall, she has been with a beta for 10+ years and rather enjoys it, so obviously some people from both genders are happy with their preferences.

    She’s making it seem as if most women would next a guy who refuses to be their fucking chauffer! I’m merely pointing out that she’s wrong, especially if you follow BD’s advice and avoid women (like her) in their 30s and above like the black plague!

    I would really like to see you in ten, fifteen or twenty years, and see if your mindset and or preferences change/don’t change. Maybe they will, maybe they won’t.

    Why would they change? The only way they could change is if I became a beta again, which will never happen! Are you expecting BD to become a beta as he ages? I don’t get it!

    I’m guessing sex will become less and less important for you as time goes on.

    Uhhh, I think you’re talking about every single human being on the planet now. Yes, as people age, their sex drives go down. When they reach their sixties and above, they generally become completely impotent and asexual. This is perfectly normal and natural.

    In my opinion, male enhancement drugs like Viagra and Cialis are abominations and crimes against nature! I would never use such disgusting things. Either I can perform on my own, or I don’t deserve to have sex. The natural order of things must be respected!

    If I have no desire for sex as an old man, forcing my desire with artificial garbage is, in my opinion, dehumanizing and wrong! The only way I’d ever use Viagra or whatever is if my impotence, or lack of ability to obtain an erection, would be due to some unnatural condition at a young age. So, for example, if I were to become impotent today, I’d definitely take Viagra because impotence at my age isn’t natural, and I’d definitely go to the doctor to see what the hell is wrong with me!

    This is also why I’m furious at the condom companies. Their only legitimate job is birth control and STD prevention. That’s it! But now, we have trash like “her pleasure condoms,” “cherry flavored condoms,” and so forth!

    It makes me sick! I should NOT be competing with a fucking piece of rubber! I’m the only one who should be giving her pleasure during sex, not some crappy technology invented as artificial affirmative action for virgins!!!!

    The only “pleasurable sensation” that a condom should make me or her feel is the sensation that we are having sex without a condom! Everything else disrespects me!

     And you will likely have to consider sugar baby game or provider game at some point,

    NEVER!!!!!

    Let me make one thing perfectly clear: I will cut off my own penis before I ever pay for sex! Got it? I will passionately masturbate to porn before I ever pay for sex! I will become a celibate monk before I ever pay for sex!

    Do we understand each other?

    BD is in his mid-40s and he’s still kicking. I predict that I’ll remain within the poly community well into my 50s and 60s. Then I’ll probably become impotent in my late 50s or early 60s, in which case, that’s it for me. Time to focus on spirituality!

    Would be nice to follow your aging process on your blog, and what you do to cope with it. I’m sure we can learn a lot from it, kind of like we are learning from what BD is going through as he ages.

    LOL! Dude, why are you talking to me like this? I’m only 34! But you’re making me sound like 64 already!

    Sure, you can follow my “aging process” on my future blog, but I’m baffled that this is even in your thoughts. I’m way younger than BD even!

    Even though I’m 34, I feel like I’m 24! I hit the gym regularly and I believe regular sex also counts as exercise. My diet is less than completely healthy (I consume way too much sugar for my own good), but my metabolism is so high that I feel like I have to stuff my face with as much protein and fatty foods as possible in order to avoid a very disgustingly skinny physical appearance.

    Hitting the gym has greatly helped in giving me a respectable and decently muscular body, but I’m constantly eating something in order to maintain the weight (I’m 6’5 and weigh 230 pounds), otherwise I lose it and become in danger of regressing into the body of a skinny child. It sucks, but all of the women I sleep with say I’m doing a good job maintaining an attractive physique, so I’ll keep at it.

    Damn, I’m hungry now. I need a double chilly dog! Or a nice well done steak. That sounds good, even at 4 in the morning! Ah, the perks of living alone!

     

  38. @Jack

    That’s not what we’re talking about. I wasn’t referring to regular, or already established, dating. We are talking about the first date and the pre-sex phase.

    I wasn’t talking about first date or pre-sex in my examples. I was talking about the relationship-management stage. My fault. But I usually push for sex on first dates anyway.

    I’ve noticed that chivalrous conservatives enjoy cup caking the women they sleep with the same way I would cup cake a 9 year old daughter (if I had one).
    I sincerely apologize if the analogy is over the top for you, but I just can’t bring myself to avoid being creeped out by this type of genuinely infantile treatment of adult women (whom you wish to have sex with, no less).  

    It’s an interesting attempt to link up the display of care to pedophilia, but I think it says something more about your psyche, than mine. You must have very difficult time with intimacy.

    Please tell me you at least make them pay for it!

    Of course. This doesn’t even come up.

    Dear lord, cooking? Seriously? I understand the occasional treat, but cooking for you on a regular basis? No man! No self-respecting man living in 21st century western civilization has any business outsourcing such an elementary skill to a woman, thus disempowering himself and putting his stomach at the mercy of feminine whims!

    Again, we are very different. I love when my women cook for me. Don’t see it disempowering or self-disrespectful. I am perfectly capable of cooking my own meals, it is simply something they do to show their appreciation of me. I think you are reading too much into it.

    “Good manners” are, by definition, gender neutral! So is she showing “bad manners” by refusing to open doors for you, ask you to text her to make sure you got home safe, and failing to protect you from the big bad wolf?
    If it’s gender based, it has nothing to do with manners!

    Good point, I agree. It is definitely a gender roles thing and SP.

    your views are toxic to men reading this blog for the first time who desperately wish to stop being betas and start getting laid. You’re hurting them.

    This is a highly subjective statement. I am not promoting anything/urge anyone to do anything. I simply ask questions. You, on the other hand, are simply being butt-hurt by any views that differ from yours, happily labeling them “toxic”, “beta”, etc. Noticed it many times here.

    I must respond forcefully.

    Keyboard warrior detected, lol.

    I’m setting an example for a larger and, in many cases, younger audience.

    I am not sure you are. Blackdragon is being helpful in many ways by providing us with some very useful content. I don’t agree will all of it, but I must admit, it is good and most of it is a very sound advice. I have certainly learned a lot. Your behaviour, however, can only be described as immature, hysterical and, ironically, toxic. Hardly a role-model material.

    I think it’s fair to say we have very different views and personalities, let alone have very different agenda when it comes to dating/sex, as found out in our previous discussion. No point in continuing it.

    All the best.

  39. @BlackDragon

    It’s an issue of degree. What is more boyfriend-like? Fucking in your bed or fucking on the floor? Which is a boyfriend more likely to do? What is better for a non-boyfriend, nonmonogamous EFA you’re trying to establish?

    I think you can really take it to an extreme level with that mentality. I agree with seeing her only once a week, keeping texting to the minimum, even not letting her stay overnight etc. But fucking her on the floor instead of your bed? Heck, let’s take it to the next level. What is more boyfriend-like? Fucking on the floor in your warm and clean apartment or in the alley-way behind a dumpster? EFA… It’s getting a bit extreme and silly.

  40. Jack,

    Heh, heh, heh!
    You mean, in a parallel universe where women ask out men? Wow! Nice compensation!
    Sorry, not buying it. If I’m doing online dating, and I pitch a first meet at Starbucks, I’m not picking up her lazy ass! As my equal, she needs to drive to the date, just like me!

    That’s fine too, if both parties can drive to the destination.

    But in cases like the original one mentioned in this post, where the woman’s car is in the shop and asks him to pick her up, what is the guy going to say? How is he going to explain his refusal to pick her up?

    “Sorry, I won’t be picking you up because I have this hangup about appearing too compliant or beta.”

    That would sound insane and ridiculous.

    Or perhaps, “No, you can find another ride, lazy ass.”

    I’d encourage anyone to drop someone with this attitude immediately, man or woman.

    Her time is NOT more valuable than mine, your thinly disguised matriarchal leanings notwithstanding! Both of us need to have our own cars. Period!

    Okay, but her time is not less valuable than yours either.

    I have NEVER had a problem with this. No woman has ever demanded that I pick her up in my car for a fucking coffee date. They usually insist that we meet in public for the first time, instead of making themselves vulnerable by putting themselves in my car before they ever met me!
    Maybe it’s a generational thing, or just your ignorance over the nature of online dating.

    I’d say this is smart of them if you are talking about online dating. I admit, I haven’t had much experience in that since I’ve usually met my dates in person. But theoretically, if I was meeting someone for the first time that I met online, I wouldn’t get in his car on the first date, nor would I go to his house, nor would I sleep with him no matter what game he was spitting, all of which would be putting her in a vulnerable position.

    I’d say the same is true for men meeting a woman he just met online as well.

    In this generation, dates are mutual. No one takes anyone else out. We take ourselves out independently so that we can meet each other as equals on neutral ground.
    If you would actually next a guy for this, you’re either very old, or just a severely old fashioned gal!

    You can see it that way, but not everyone else is going to. Some people do like to be more old fashioned. I’ve always had guys offer to pick me up when they asked me out. Granted, I met them in person first and not online.

     

  41. playing devil’s advocate, I would assume this guy is not American or European, he is likely from an extremely less modernized/Westernized culture, I’m guessing India? Where society hasn’t yet come to the point where you _can_ completely drop those types of behaviors if you want to get laid.

    I lived in Japan for quite some time, and I can tell you I was ghosted several times by girls after first night sex until I learned that very thing – they expected you to bestow some “child privileges” on them (never thought of it in this terminology before but you’re spot on).

    If you sent her home on her own late at night, forget about it, you’ll never see her ever again. After dating a while, yes, but the first few dates? No fucking way. You HAVE to do it.

    Men there, act EXACTLY like overbearing fathers from day one of every relationship. Telling her what she can and can’t eat, what time to go to sleep, make them take photos throughout the day to prove where and who they are with, it’s INSANE, but it’s what they are accustomed to and what they interpret as “he cares about me”.

    Fact of the matter is if you live in a culture like that, you have to comply a _little_ if you want to get regularly laid, because the women will interpret your “I want you to be totally free to live your life and make your own decisions and be an adult with equal rights” attitude as “I don’t give a shit about you” every single time and she won’t stick around.

    Big lulz at the cooking insights. Never thought of it this way, but I’ve had several women comment that they are uncomfortable with how clean and organized my home is and how good I am at cooking, because they don’t see anything “to do”.  That’s ok, we can work on your blowjob skills sweetie : )

  42. Hi Bd, I’m not sure i should be posting that question here, but  how do you maintain your frame at work, in the corporate world. I remember you wrote an article about the women in the workplace and that you shouldn’t be trying any advances on them. Nontheless if you want a chance to date them later you should maintain your frame ,avoid contact and stay as misterious as you possibly can.  So how do you maintain your frame, while staying misterious and being nice to them at the same time? What is the difference between turning into beta  versus being nice while maintaining your frame? How much do you help them with requests outside of your ob description/profile?

  43. Dear lord, cooking? Seriously? I understand the occasional treat, but cooking for you on a regular basis? No man! No self-respecting man living in 21st century western civilization has any business outsourcing such an elementary skill to a woman, thus disempowering himself and putting his stomach at the mercy of feminine whims!

    and

    male enhancement drugs like Viagra and Cialis are abominations and crimes against nature! I would never use such disgusting things. Either I can perform on my own, or I don’t deserve to have sex. The natural order of things must be respected!

    Jack?

    Jesus.

    Either you’re putting on a show because you like to act like a crazy man a la Alex Jones, or I have a feeling that someday soon I’m going to see a news report about how your head spontaneously exploded.

    Hi Bd, I’m not sure i should be posting that question here

    You’re right, you shouldn’t:

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/off-topic/

  44. male enhancement drugs like Viagra and Cialis are abominations and crimes against nature! I would never use such disgusting things. Either I can perform on my own, or I don’t deserve to have sex. The natural order of things must be respected!

    Jack?
    Jesus.
    Either you’re putting on a show because you like to act like a crazy man a la Alex Jones, or I have a feeling that someday soon I’m going to see a news report about how your head spontaneously exploded.

    Nah it’s been obvious from two years ago +. As far as I’m concerned, it goes back to your article Response To Roosh, when he said he wanted to abolish sperm banks and was strongly against any type of human modification or life extension.

  45. Well, Jack’s viewpoints include a worldwide Jewish conspiracy, free energy conspiracy, something about Nikola Tesla, pretty much the traditional package. I still owe him much, it was his inimitable posts that finally let me understand the simple concept that the right price for vagina is penis, but his susceptibility to various fallacies adds extra processing overhead to the effort of reading his posts which are only getting more and more verbose, so I stopped reading those.

  46. “Nah it’s been obvious from two years ago +. As far as I’m concerned, it goes back to your article Response To Roosh, when he said he wanted to abolish sperm banks and was strongly against any type of human modification or life extension.”

    He is planning to go impotent in early 50s. Nuff said.

  47. He is planning to go impotent in early 50s. Nuff said.

    No, I ‘m not. Where did you get that from?

    I’m not “planning” on going impotent at all. If I can still maintain a solid erection and perform sexually at the age of 95, that’s great. Then I guess I’ll still be having sex then.

    But if I go impotent naturally because of my old age, I will not be taking any type of artificial enhancements, pills, or any of that crap, because I see these things as unnatural.

    So I will continue having sex until the day I go impotent due to old age, whenever that will be. Until then, I still plan on taking care of myself though in order to postpone that natural day as far as possible!

     

  48. And now come the malicious straw men designed to make me sound crazy and marginalized:

    Well, Jack’s viewpoints include a worldwide Jewish conspiracy,

    Worldwide? No context to this at all? Really?

    I’ve said before that roughly 96 percent of the Jewish people aren’t in on any conspiracy or know anything about what I’m talking about. There are, however, approximately 4 percent of Jews (crypto-Jews) who are indeed Jewish supremacists, and they occupy some of the most powerful positions in this world (mostly in banking). They think the rest of us are not humans.

    That’s a little different than making me sound like some kind of crazy Nazi who believes that “all Jews are evil worldwide,” don’t you think?

    Context matters. My girlfriend is ethnically Jewish, for fuck sake!

    free energy conspiracy,

    HAHA! I love how you use the word “conspiracy” as a marginalization tactic.

    “To think that rich and powerful people could actually get together and have some type of plan for the rest of us! Oh no, impossible! I mean, yes, they have the means and ability (that’s undeniable), but they won’t, because they’re not like that!” 

    LOL! Un-fucking-believable! 

    pretty much the traditional package.

    What the fuck does this mean? Do you see me rambling nonsense about “reptillians,” “space aliens,” and joining in with the “flat Earth” retards?

    his susceptibility to various fallacies

    What fallacies? That certain elites have plans for the rest of us that they don’t disclose to us, and have no plans on asking us for our consent? That what a religious holy book says might actually be taken seriously by someone who believes it and is in power?

    Yeah, that’s so radical! Fine, continue voting and believing that the government is your friend. While you’re at it, vote for government healthcare! After all, why should you have to pay if you get a heart attack? LMFAO!!!!!

     

     

     

  49. Either you’re putting on a show because you like to act like a crazy man a la Alex Jones,

    No! I sincerely believe everything I say! I’m not a liar! I’m just not ashamed, as that would be beta!

    By the way, if you’re reading this, you ARE the resistance!

    LOL! Just kidding! Fuck Alex Jones! He’s controlled opposition!

    or I have a feeling that someday soon I’m going to see a news report about how your head spontaneously exploded.

    Possible!

    But what’s crazy about what I said?

    If you want to use Viagra when you get old, be my guest! I just said that I won’t be using it, because I sincerely believe it is unnatural and disgusting (to me). It’s like giving it to a child. I’m against declaring war against your own body’s natural inclinations.

    And the cooking thing? I’m surprised you disagree with that. So you allow PF to cook for you on a regular basis then? You’re okay with outsourcing your stomach to women? Why would you give her that kind of power?

     

     

  50. That’s fine too, if both parties can drive to the destination.

    Who doesn’t these days?

    But in cases like the original one mentioned in this post, where the woman’s car is in the shop and asks him to pick her up, what is the guy going to say? How is he going to explain his refusal to pick her up?

    “Sorry, I won’t be picking you up because I have this hangup about appearing too compliant or beta.”

    That would sound insane and ridiculous.

    Or perhaps, “No, you can find another ride, lazy ass.”

    I’d encourage anyone to drop someone with this attitude immediately, man or woman.

    How about, “can you take an Uber?”

    If I’m feeling very generous and she lives further away, I’ll see if I can meet her half way. We can setup a coffee date at a place much closer to her house, so she can walk there! This isn’t complicated!

    Okay, but her time is not less valuable than yours either.

    Which is why I’m not asking her to pick me up!

    if I was meeting someone for the first time that I met online, I wouldn’t get in his car on the first date, nor would I go to his house, nor would I sleep with him no matter what game he was spitting, all of which would be putting her in a vulnerable position.

    This makes no sense. If you met for your first date (that you arranged online) at a public coffee shop and spent the next two hours together talking and getting to know each other, why wouldn’t you agree to drive to his place and have sex with him? There’s no difference at that point how you met.

    I’d say the same is true for men meeting a woman he just met online as well.

    My only concern is to make sure she isn’t some false rape accusing psycho, crazy SJW, or autistic affirmative consent enthusiast (or some #metoo man-hater).

    You can see it that way, but not everyone else is going to. Some people do like to be more old fashioned. I’ve always had guys offer to pick me up when they asked me out. Granted, I met them in person first and not online.

    Well, I’m glad that we as a society are moving forward then!

     

     

  51. I wasn’t talking about first date or pre-sex in my examples. I was talking about the relationship-management stage. My fault.

    That’s a little better if you’re talking about a serious OLTR girlfriend whom you are in love with. Then yes, a little more concern for her well being is warranted.

    But even then, there has to be some demonstrable reason for you fearing for her safety. Is she driving through a bad neighborhood? Does she have health issues? Is she pregnant? Otherwise, you’re still babying her.

    But I usually push for sex on first dates anyway.

    I’m more cautious on the first date, because I want to make sure she’s not a rapeochondriac. Things like a desire to talk about politics, wanting to know where I stand on the issues, who I voted for, talking about feminism, things being “problematic,” “checking my privilege,” or just having blue hair are all unacceptable to me.

    I have to be satisfied that she isn’t a man-hater or an SJW psychotic whose definition of rape is different from the local police department.

    Once I’m satisfied that she isn’t an SJW, but an NHB (normal human being), I’ll allow sex on the first date, particularly if she is pushing for it (which some women very much do). But I still have no problem with waiting until the second date.

    It’s an interesting attempt to link up the display of care to pedophilia,

    Care? I’m talking about patronizing her like a child.

    but I think it says something more about your psyche, than mine.

    No, I think it says something about both our psyches.

    You must have very difficult time with intimacy.

    Not at all. I’m very intimate with my girlfriend! I just don’t condescend to her or keep tabs on her due to baseless concerns over her safety. If I’m worried that something bad might happen to her, that worry has to have some type of concrete or rational reality behind it!

    Again, we are very different. I love when my women cook for me. Don’t see it disempowering or self-disrespectful. I am perfectly capable of cooking my own meals, it is simply something they do to show their appreciation of me. I think you are reading too much into it.

    Well, it’s good that you at least are capable of cooking for yourself! Otherwise, you’d be putty in her hands! My girlfriend can’t cook to save her life, so this has never come up. My previous girlfriends have cooked, but we were more 50/50 about it. No woman (except my mother when I was a boy) ever cooked for me on a regular basis! I see that as disrespecting me!

    Good point, I agree. It is definitely a gender roles thing and SP.

    Finally! I’m glad I finally got you to admit that this gender roles crap is really your SP. Good!

    This is a highly subjective statement. I am not promoting anything/urge anyone to do anything. I simply ask questions.

    You also display blue pill habits, which I’m simply calling out.

    You, on the other hand, are simply being butt-hurt by any views that differ from yours, happily labeling them “toxic”, “beta”, etc. Noticed it many times here.

    “Any views that differ from mine” is too broad. And you are being too relativistic. The views of betas definitely differ from mine, which is why they don’t get laid or end up in the friend zone.

    There are correct and incorrect views, if your desire is to get laid, or maintain long term non-monogamous relationships!

    Keyboard warrior detected, lol.

    Yes, I am a keyboard warrior. I’m also a real life warrior!

    Your behaviour, however, can only be described as immature, hysterical and, ironically, toxic. Hardly a role-model material.

    I’m not trying to be a role model. I’m trying to get people to pay attention to what I’m saying, not on me personally. You don’t have to like me, or agree with my presentation style, or my personality. That’s fine. But you should still heed what I say, regardless of how my personality preferences dictate my delivery!

    I am neither immature, hysterical, nor toxic. Anyone who knows me in real life would find that characterization hilarious! “Passionate” is the more likely word they’d use to describe me, which is part of the reason my girlfriend fell in love with me!

    I think it’s fair to say we have very different views and personalities, let alone have very different agenda when it comes to dating/sex, as found out in our previous discussion.

    So you want monogamy then? What’s your agenda with women? Because if you desire a traditional monogamous relationship, I don’t see why you’re here!

     

  52. This rule of yours has always bewildered me. Spending the night together is personally one of my favourite things, and I have done it with many girls during our first time with no negative consequences. How does it affect your EFA?

    I enjoy it as well, so I do it anyway. I can’t say it caused any surprise ghosting of any relationships, but I’m not quite as hard line about certain things as BD is. But…it does make things more difficult. I get more questions about “what I’m looking for”, and earlier, than I would otherwise.

    My guess is because, while we spend the night together, there’s no other providerish stuff. I’m pulling mainly 1st date lays, and we’re meeting at a bar where I will buy her a single drink, sometimes (sometimes she gets to buy her own). When she comes over to my place, it’s clear that I have some $, but it’s also clear that she’s over here to have sex (I have a bed, a desk, and one chair; no kitchen table, no couch, no tv, etc).

    It also makes certain other things more difficult. If she was sent away the first 3 times you slept together, but on the 4th you allowed her to stay the night because “it’s late” or “let’s”, it’s much easier to revert if there’s a reason you don’t like spending the night with her. Maybe it’s the gas, or she snores, or something else. If you spend the first night together it’s going to make things harder if you don’t let her spend the night the 2nd time. And the 3rd after that, etc.

     

  53. This makes no sense. If you met for your first date (that you arranged online) at a public coffee shop and spent the next two hours together talking and getting to know each other, why wouldn’t you agree to drive to his place and have sex with him? There’s no difference at that point how you met.

    Other people may operate differently and I’m fine with that, but in my life it has always been that sex doesn’t happen until a relationship happens first. If he doesn’t want a relationship, he won’t be getting relationship benefits. I never had trouble getting what I want.

  54. I would assume this guy is not American or European, he is likely from an extremely less modernized/Westernized culture, I’m guessing India?

    Then I take back everything I said. I’ve made it clear before that I am only speaking to Americans, or at least hardcore westerners!

    If you’re living in some kind of conservative shithole, nothing I say applies!

    If you sent her home on her own late at night, forget about it, you’ll never see her ever again. After dating a while, yes, but the first few dates? No fucking way. You HAVE to do it.

    Note to self: Never go to Japan!

    Men there, act EXACTLY like overbearing fathers from day one of every relationship. Telling her what she can and can’t eat, what time to go to sleep, make them take photos throughout the day to prove where and who they are with,

    My god! And I thought the Muslims were bad!

    it’s INSANE, but it’s what they are accustomed to and what they interpret as “he cares about me”.

    LOL! No wonder the Japanese grass eaters are dropping out, and whorehouses are being replaced, and converted into, sex doll factories! If I were Japanese, I wouldn’t pay a woman a penny, nor would I coddle her like this! So I guess I’d either have to be a celibate grass eater or move to the West!

    Fact of the matter is if you live in a culture like that, you have to comply a _little_ if you want to get regularly laid, because the women will interpret your “I want you to be totally free to live your life and make your own decisions and be an adult with equal rights” attitude as “I don’t give a shit about you” every single time and she won’t stick around.

    And morons like Roosh and other conservatives within the manosphere are jealous of such garbage and want to reintroduce it here! That’s why I hate the Alt-Right.

    I wish all of them would take Roosh’s advice and get the fuck out of the West and stop polluting the seduction community. Let them enjoy their traditional lifestyles and pray five times a day, or coddle their Asian women, while the rest of us true westerners who love individualism and freedom enjoy all the pussy we can handle!

    Big lulz at the cooking insights. Never thought of it this way, but I’ve had several women comment that they are uncomfortable with how clean and organized my home is and how good I am at cooking, because they don’t see anything “to do”.

    Yup! They hate the fact that there is nothing they can reel you in with, or manipulate you with! Good job cooking and cleaning for yourself! They have zero leverage!

     

     

     

     

     

  55. But what’s crazy about what I said?

    The fact you’re asking that question is the answer to the question.

    If you want to use Viagra when you get old, be my guest! I just said that I won’t be using it, because I sincerely believe it is unnatural and disgusting (to me). It’s like giving it to a child. I’m against declaring war against your own body’s natural inclinations.

    My body’s natural inclinations is to fuck young hot bitches until I’m 125 years old and look like a wrinkled prune using my walker to get around. If you want to stop having sex when you’re in your 60’s or whatever, be my guest, but it won’t make you happy.

    And the cooking thing? I’m surprised you disagree with that. So you allow PF to cook for you on a regular basis then?

    When she quits her job and moves home full-time, fuck yes. I can’t wait to outsource this drudgery to her. I’d rather make money.

    You’re okay with outsourcing your stomach to women?

    Outsourcing kitchen duties (among many other things) to a woman you’re already living with is a key time management technique. Your time should be spent improving your life and working on your Mission, not grocery shopping and cutting onions. Those are extremely low-value tasks and only an idiot pulls time away from more productive tasks to do these things himself forever (unless he derives great pleasure from doing these things, and I do not). If PF didn’t do it, I would have or pay some other woman to do it instead.

    Why would you give her that kind of power?

    For fuck’s sake, PF cutting my broccoli and cooking my chicken breasts does not give her power over me, but I’m not actually going waste my time arguing this insanity with you. (See? Time management again.)

    In all seriousness Jack, you’re comments have grown more insane over the years. You weren’t like this 3-4 years ago. I humbly suggest you take a deep breath, pause, look at yourself in the mirror, and do a little self reflection. Or not; it’s up to you.

  56. I enjoy it as well, so I do it anyway. I can’t say it caused any surprise ghosting of any relationships, but I’m not quite as hard line about certain things as BD is. But…it does make things more difficult. I get more questions about “what I’m looking for”, and earlier, than I would otherwise.

    Precisely. Betaization kicks in much faster than it normally would, because you’re sending conflicting signals to a woman and have an inconsistent EFA.

    If you spend the first night together it’s going to make things harder if you don’t let her spend the night the 2nd time. And the 3rd after that, etc.

    Also correct. You’re setting a girlfriend-like or at least a MLTR-like precedent with a woman you have no idea if you like yet. Bad.

    And as always, if some of you guys don’t mind these kinds of problems, feel free to ignore my advice and do whatever you want.

  57. However with most of my women, I have spent the night with them the first time we had sex.  For me it is usually very late.  Most of them I meet in some sort of night game, and we don’t even begin sex until the early hours of the morning.  There’s almost no way I can just tell them to leave at that point

    I address exactly this in Get To Sex Fast. CONTROL YOUR LOGISTICS. If you’re not having sex until 5am when she can’t go home, STOP FUCKING DOING THAT.

    Your laziness does not justify doing things that are less likely to create and maintain attraction and low-drama behavior from women.

    It might be an exception since I mostly do night game

    Then I really can’t comment. But what I said above still stands.

    @BD, basically everything you have advised on the blog and your book have been 100% spot on and worked perfectly for me.  I have no doubt you are right about this as well.  However being in a small isolated town at the moment, I have had to forgo the spending the night rule, and also stick to night game to make it work for me.  Without this, in such a small area, I wouldn’t have this kind of success, as you have even said this can’t work properly here.  It is working probably as best as I possibly can however, following all of the rest of your advice.  I have been wanting to buy and read Get to Sex Fast, and now even moreso since you apparently have some advice in there that applies to me right now as well.  I had been waiting because I cannot do online game where I am currently.  I know I need to change location, but until then, I have to break the spending the night rule.

    I must say though, that after I’ve fucked her twice, I can start planning sex with her earlier in the day and no longer allow overnight stays after that.  I don’t know if you feel that is at least somewhat ok, but I feel like that’s the best I can do at this time.  I have one mltr and 2 fb in a town of 12,000 or so.  I believe that would normally be extremely difficult to pull off here, but even being small town and not using online game, following all of the rest of your rules that I can, I am still very successful with your methods and quite happy.  Thank you.

  58. I was wondering about the issues of sleepovers myself recently. I’ve been experimenting and I’m seeing a pattern of higher return-rates when we don’t spend the night together.

    However, sometimes kicking them out or leaving can be logistically difficult. What are your thoughts on a compromise?

    Specifically:

    1) Letting her stay over (avoiding cuddling while sleeping), and getting up super-early and actually leaving her in your flat, telling her to just pull the door to on her way out. This seems like it can avoid any morning awkwardness or boyfriend-ey routines.

    2) Sleeping over at hers (again, avoiding cuddling) and getting up super-early and leaving before she wakes up (i.e. 6am).

    suidine

  59. I was wondering about the issues of sleepovers myself recently. I’ve been experimenting and I’m seeing a pattern of higher return-rates when we don’t spend the night together.

    However, sometimes kicking them out or leaving can be logistically difficult. What are your thoughts on a compromise?

    Specifically:

    1) Letting her stay over (avoiding cuddling while sleeping), and getting up super-early and actually leaving her in your flat, telling her to just pull the door to on her way out. This seems like it can avoid any morning awkwardness or boyfriend-ey routines.

    2) Sleeping over at hers (again, avoiding cuddling) and getting up super-early and leaving before she wakes up (i.e. 6am).

    suidine

    I can already assume what BD will tell you is that you need to plan logistics better.  To follow his methods, the rule is not to be having her stay overnight, nor stay at her place overnight.  Any modification to this rule will end up in more drama or faster betaization.  I won’t speak for him, but I doubt he will pick either of the choices you presented.

  60. I have to say that I’m a bit intrigued about the sleeping on the floor thing. How in the hell do you pull that off? Wouldn’t she say something along the lines of “do you mind if we move to the bed where it’s more comfortable?” at the very least to “what are we doing on the floor?” said in a less than polite fashion thus killing the mood.

    When she quits her job and moves home full-time, fuck yes. I can’t wait to outsource this drudgery to her. I’d rather make money.

    Didn’t you say that you helped start her own business from home anyway, or is she going to quit that too? Either way, I can’t wait for the next few oltr updates.

    If PF didn’t do it, I would have or pay some other woman to do it instead.

    Do you mean if you were single? Or would you have a maid while also letting PF stay home?

  61. However, sometimes kicking them out or leaving can be logistically difficult.

    I have had sex with mountains of women and I have literally never had any problem doing this with anyone. I mean it. Not once.  So if you view this as a problem, you’re doing something wrong, likely within your own mindset or EFA.

    1) Letting her stay over (avoiding cuddling while sleeping), and getting up super-early and actually leaving her in your flat, telling her to just pull the door to on her way out. This seems like it can avoid any morning awkwardness or boyfriend-ey routines.

    2) Sleeping over at hers (again, avoiding cuddling) and getting up super-early and leaving before she wakes up (i.e. 6am).

    Both of these things are borderline boyfriend behaviors and are not ideal.

    I can already assume what BD will tell you is that you need to plan logistics better.

    You assume correctly.

    1. Plan your logistics well in advance, and don’t change them just because she’s disorganized or wants to change them.

    2. Set her expectations as soon as she comes over (or even before), not when you want her to leave.

    3. Maintain an 85/15 player/provider frame throughout all of your interactions with her pre-Lock-In! Always!

    I have to say that I’m a bit intrigued about the sleeping on the floor thing. How in the hell do you pull that off?

    It’s not sleeping on the floor, it’s fucking on the floor.

    Don’t verbalize it. Just do it. Start sexually escalating on the couch, then pull out a blanket (that I always keep conveniently on or behind the couch), throw it down on the floor, throw her down, and make sweet love.

    I even fucked PF for the first time like this. It’s never a problem if you don’t think it’s a problem.

    You guys are really locked into some hardcore Societal Programming mindsets about dating! Not good, folks; work on that.

    Wouldn’t she say something along the lines of “do you mind if we move to the bed where it’s more comfortable?”

    Yes, I’ve had a small number of women say that. I will move to the bed if they are clearly very nervous about the floor, but the vast majority don’t bring it up, and won’t if you do all of this correctly.

    at the very least to “what are we doing on the floor?” said in a less than polite fashion thus killing the mood

    I have never had any woman under the age of 33 say that, or anything like that, and we’re talking about scores of women I’ve fucked on the floor.

    Stop worrying about things that only occur in your mind.

    Didn’t you say that you helped start her own business from home anyway, or is she going to quit that too? Either way, I can’t wait for the next few oltr updates.

    Yeah, I’ll talk about that on our next update.

    Do you mean if you were single?

    Yes.

    Or would you have a maid while also letting PF stay home?

    If PF was busy working often and paid for half of it, sure.

    For example, one of our goals is to get to the point where we can both afford, and financially justify, a professional cook to come in to the house and bulk-prep meals for us once or twice a week. My goal is to get this done in 2019 at the latest. Can’t wait!

  62. You guys are really locked into some hardcore Societal Programming mindsets about dating! Not good, folks; work on that.

    You’re right. I remember when I just moved into an apartment when I was younger, and didn’t have furniture yet. I fucked a few girls on the floor, but with no other options available. I never would have  imagined doing that if I didn’t have to. This of course brings me to another question. When do they get promoted to bed sex? After lock in? After you make them mltr?

  63. I fucked a few girls on the floor, but with no other options available. I never would have  imagined doing that if I didn’t have to.

    Exactly. During the entire year of 2007 after my divorce, I didn’t even have a couch or a bed(!), and I had no trouble at all fucking women in my little apartment. And all but one were all over age 33 back then!

    When do they get promoted to bed sex? After lock in? After you make them mltr?

    I don’t have a set time for this. Whenever it feels right to me for a MLTR. Not long.

    I generally don’t like having FB‘s in my bed but it’s certainly happened (particularly FB‘s who I knew already had boyfriends; less risk of betaization from those).

  64. Fuck her on the floor, Fast  and Furious, before her mind has time to rationalize anything.

    It’s a mental and emotional arbitrage situation, which is only completely closed on the second bang. Get to the 2nd bang ASAP to side-step her rationalalization mechanism (why she shouldn’t have fucked you even the first time) as well as set her in cement by turning her ratinoalization mechanism to justify her fucking you more than once (no longer a ONS, fluke, serendipity or other bullshit). A woman has to ratinalize her behavior to, first, herself, then her girlfriends, friends, aquaintences and  even her family.

    Removing the random and irrational ONS scenario by fucking her at least twice removes that out variable from the realtionship equation. She now will say and do just about anything to explain why banging you twicce or more was a good decision, the right thing to do, etc.

    Furthermore, doing so without any pretext of a boyfriend/girlfirned relationship (implies exlusivity) by demonstrating boyfriend/girlfriend behaviors is necessary to start her in the FB role. That squelches any inflated Disney-esque expecttions of more than a purely sexual relation, to start.

    If anything moves beyond a purely sexul FB relationship, say to a MLTR level with boyfriend-ish behaviors, then it’s still the man’s call — his decision, not hers. In the meantime, the man dosen’t have to deal with the drama of mixed messages and different expectations if he doesn’t dispaly boyfriend MLTR behaviors on the first or second bang.

    Have I got the gist of all this?

  65. I agree with BD about staying the night, or having her stay the night after a first fuck. In fact, I avoid “sleep-overs” even with longstanding FBs whenever possible. For that reason I find it’s sometimes better to go to her place – I can leave exactly when I want to. I’ve never thought of not routinely using the bed for sex though.

    Interested to hear BD’s and others’ views on fucking twice on the first or second occasion. This is something I like to do – is it not advisable at meetings early in a potential FB relationship?

  66. Other people may operate differently and I’m fine with that, but in my life it has always been that sex doesn’t happen until a relationship happens first.

    Dearest god! Wow!

    Okay, I didn’t know I was talking to a woman from Pakistan! How old are you?

    If he doesn’t want a relationship, he won’t be getting relationship benefits.

    HAHA! Getting relationship benefits? So…..you see yourself as “giving” sex as a favor to the man? Just how low is your sex drive?

    I never had trouble getting what I want.

    Well then Allahu Akbar to you!

     

  67. and ask them to text me when they get home to make sure they are fine.

    I have been doing this as well, and I cannot quite tell if this was making things better or worse for me. Any thoughts? Also please distinguish doing this pre lay and after.

    I enjoy it as well, so I do it anyway. I can’t say it caused any surprise ghosting of any relationships, but I’m not quite as hard line about certain things as BD is. But…it does make things more difficult. I get more questions about “what I’m looking for”, and earlier, than I would otherwise.

    Precisely. Betaization kicks in much faster than it normally would, because you’re sending conflicting signals to a woman and have an inconsistent EFA.

    If you spend the first night together it’s going to make things harder if you don’t let her spend the night the 2nd time. And the 3rd after that, etc.

    Also correct. You’re setting a girlfriend-like or at least a MLTR-like precedent with a woman you have no idea if you like yet. Bad.

    And as always, if some of you guys don’t mind these kinds of problems, feel free to ignore my advice and do whatever you want.

    I was ignoring some of your stuff for a while now and I am starting to see from the comments here that some of these things have happened to me as well, probably as a result. Indeed I had recently women who left after 3-5 occasions where we had sex out of the blue probably because of this.
    Question regarding this: what about cuddling? I know you say cuddling is a boyfriend behaviour but you say it can also be fine. I quite like cuddling with women so its hard for me to know if I am doing it the wrong way or the right way. To just kick her out straight after sex feels weird. Also to get out of bed and to sit and talk to her when we have nothing much to talk about is also not ideal.

  68. Have I got the gist of all this?

    More or less, yes.

    Interested to hear BD’s and others’ views on fucking twice on the first or second occasion. This is something I like to do – is it not advisable at meetings early in a potential FB relationship?

    Fucking her twice in the same evening, at any point in the process, is perfectly fine. I’ve done it many times. I had one MLTR in particular who I had sex with three times the first time (on the second date, under three hours total face time).

    I was ignoring some of your stuff for a while now

    Never a good idea.

    and I am starting to see from the comments here that some of these things have happened to me as well, probably as a result.

    Yup.

    Question regarding this: what about cuddling? I know you say cuddling is a boyfriend behaviour but you say it can also be fine.

    Fine for MLTR‘s. Not allowed for FB‘s. Dangerous to do so before you know she’s a MLTR (i.e. the first or second time you have sex).

  69. Fine for MLTR’s. Not allowed for FB’s. Dangerous to do so before you know she’s a MLTR (i.e. the first or second time you have sex).

    So with FB you just have sex and leave as soon as you are done?

  70. So with FB you just have sex and leave as soon as you are done?

    Usually, yes. Sometimes we talk for a bit and then she leaves. It’s not like I boot them out the door and be an asshole.

  71. So with FB you just have sex and leave as soon as you are done?

    Usually, yes. Sometimes we talk for a bit and then she leaves. It’s not like I boot them out the door and be an asshole.

    I had a girl where we both acted like it was a FB and then she told me she wants to stop because we dont have enough in common. So I told her we didnt get to know each other much because she acted like that and she didnt reply.

  72. What if she straight up asks you “are you going to pay [for my drinks when we go out]?”

    Just experienced this on Tinder.

  73. What if she straight up asks you “are you going to pay [for my drinks when we go out]?”

    Say yes. And assume that your odds of success have just dropped by about 30% because of the question, since this is obviously not a low-ASD woman.

  74. Blackdragon, your insistence on not taking them to bed has also been a surprise to me. You had praised fucking in the living room before, but never as an integral part of the frame, to the best of my memory. I will happily adopt the practice, because when going back through my memories I have noticed a certain, if anecdotal, correlation between going to bed and ghosting.

  75. I another matter, what about texting? Would that be included in the permissible less-than-alpha behaviours? Even worse in this era of calls and videocalls integrated into messaging apps, the need arises from time to time to reject an incoming call or (heaven forbid) videocall she makes out of the blue, in the seduction phase, often after I don’t reply to messages for some hours. I don’t know if it’s because of some generation gap but I don’t get how anyone would find videocalls have a place in a non-sexual context. Am I the only one getting them from time to time?

  76. If you want to stop having sex when you’re in your 60’s or whatever, be my guest, but it won’t make you happy.

    I will stop having sex whenever I become impotent. This could be in my 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, or never. I will take care of my body in order to postpone any potential impotence, but if it happens, I won’t contradict it by shoving unnatural substances into my body. I’m personally against that.

    And if I’m a very old and physically unattractive man, I have no problem focusing more on spirituality before I die anyway.

    When she quits her job and moves home full-time, fuck yes. I can’t wait to outsource this drudgery to her. I’d rather make money.

    Then I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.

    Your time should be spent improving your life and working on your Mission, not grocery shopping and cutting onions.

    I can walk and chew gum at the same time.

    Those are extremely low-value tasks

    Ouch! I hope Pink Firefly didn’t hear you say that!

    and only an idiot pulls time away from more productive tasks to do these things himself forever (unless he derives great pleasure from doing these things, and I do not).

    I’d rather be independent than dependent on a woman. But if that’s just me, that’s fine too. By the way, did you just call your own girlfriend an idiot? Or does she derive great pleasure from cooking?

    If PF didn’t do it, I would have or pay some other woman to do it instead.

    Yes! I agree with this! I already have a cleaning lady. I’ve been thinking for a while about perhaps hiring a personal cook as well. Nothing wrong with that, as long as I’m not sleeping with the woman who’s cooking my food. If it’s just a professional relationship, however, than it’s fine, and I agree that this may greatly assist me in the area of time management!

    For fuck’s sake, PF cutting my broccoli and cooking my chicken breasts does not give her power over me,

    I beg to differ, but okay.

    In all seriousness Jack, you’re comments have grown more insane over the years. You weren’t like this 3-4 years ago.

    I don’t believe I’ve changed my positions on anything, unless you can point to a specific subject in which my opinion has shifted (besides the fact that I used to be pro-monogamy with cheating).

    I humbly suggest you take a deep breath, pause, look at yourself in the mirror, and do a little self reflection. Or not; it’s up to you.

    Thanks for the suggestion. That’s always good advice!

     

  77. I another matter, what about texting?

    I don’t understand the question. Both texting and video calls are perfectly fine during the dating phase as long as you don’t do them too often. Video calls are a good way to do comfort bombardment.

    does she derive great pleasure from cooking?

    PF is a woman, which means A) she doesn’t have a Mission and likely never will, B) she doesn’t have any strong, specific, long-term goals and likely never will. Moreover, she’s well aware that my work generates far more money than her work does, and benefits our (somewhat) shared lifestyle better. Therefore, she understands that her taking drudgery away from me benefits her more (even if indirectly) than me wasting my key work hours doing it.

    In other words, she’s the opposite of an idiot.

  78. Damn, I have been guilty of almost all of this beta behavior. This is a whole new concept of dating for me. And I swear to god I’m gonna change that old beta shit. My ex just ditched me a month ago and I have been trying to get her back since that time (actually I just came here from a relationship site where I was trying to learn how to get her back. Screw that!).

    I’m obviously a beta. I would pick her up, hold the door for her, maybe wouldn’t even try to have sex with her on a first date… And I definitely would not have sex on the floor (haha). But I totally agree when you say you wouldn’t start dating a girl who lives more than 50 minutes away. I’m too old for that shit.

    I need to get this framework. I thought guys like you were jerks (no offense) but now I’m getting into this mode. Maybe it just means being finally a man.

  79. So BD, if I understand correctly:

    A.) You set the frame early with the “I have to work early tomorrow/be in bed by x time”

    B.) Set up date for an early-ish time,

    and then C.) gently boot them after intercourse?

    I guess I’m curious about the gently booting them part. Since I’m young(er) a large percentage of my fucks come from night game, probably around 2-3 am. The girl usually crashes at my place but I roll over and don’t cuddle. Also: morning sex. I think banging the morning after is a wicked benefit of the sleep over. Granted, I’m young and don’t have kids, 3 businesses, etc.  So far none of this has been an issue for me.

    I’m reluctant to go over to a chick’s place for the first time fucking because I feel like it puts her in control. When I’m at my place I have a streamlined seduction process and I’m in my domain. Also I don’t have to deal with bullshit like roommates or pets, and I can whip out the coconut oil 🙂

    Anyway, I’m enjoying this blog and learning a lot of stuff I hadn’t considered before

  80. I’m reluctant to go over to a chick’s place for the first time fucking because I feel like it puts her in control.

    I’d much prefer going to a chick’s place. I hate to have to have my place tidied up just because I’m having a girl over. Who cares about her being ‘in control’, it’s not like what she’ll control by you being at her place is of any real importance. And then of course the problem of booting her afterwards disappears. But yeah night game creates problems.

  81. I thought guys like you were jerks

    We ARE jerks. That’s why we get all the girls.

    Maybe it just means being finally a man.

    Bingo!

     

     

  82. We ARE jerks. That’s why we get all the girls.

    So are you saying that being an Alpha equals being a jerk?

    Not challenging you, just curious.

  83. We ARE jerks. That’s why we get all the girls.

    So are you saying that being an Alpha equals being a jerk?

    Not challenging you, just curious.

  84. I’m reluctant to go over to a chick’s place for the first time fucking because I feel like it puts her in control. 

    I don’t think it does, not necessarily. But I would say that the idea of not staying the night is even more important if you’re at her place.

    Plus if it’s a late-night/early morning first fuck (as it quite often is with me) it’s easier for me to get going from her place at 3am than it is for me to kick her out of my place at 3am.

    Plus I don’t have to worry about how my sheets are, how my bathroom is looking, etc, etc.

  85. So are you saying that being an Alpha equals being a jerk?

    Yes and no. BD’s system is great because it’s honest. None of the things I say is a lie, it’s just that now I know which things to say at which point.

    The moments I feel a bit like a jerk are when I’m creating attraction-building frustration. From time to time, I consciously decline requests I would have otherwise wholeheartedly acceded to. I must be great at this because very seldom do I get unreasonable requests; so I have to reject some reasonable ones : ) It can be as simple as “Hug me!” — don’t move and just smile (even if you, like me, enjoy hugs) — get looked upon with admiration.

    So apart from some controlled jerkiness to prolong the relationship and reduce drama, there’s no need to be an asshole.

  86. So apart from some controlled jerkiness to prolong the relationship and reduce drama, there’s no need to be an asshole.

    I like this.

    Going to read about attraction-building frustration now.

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