Because so many of you have asked, I will start posting regular updates regarding my living together relationship/marriage with Pink Firefly. I will post one of these every few months or so, but I will post them more often if a lot of you ask for it.

If you have no idea who Pink Firefly is, she’s my girlfriend/fiancé/wife. (I’m still wrestling with exactly what to call her, but I usually call her my wife, for the reasons I stated at the bottom of this article here.) You can read these posts to catch up:

Objectives and Expectations With My Live-In OLTR

Q&A Today: Ask Blackdragon’s Girlfriend Anything!

Girlfriend OLTR Relationship Update – Late Feb 2017

The Details About My Girlfriend (OLTR)

PF and I have been living together in an OLTR Marriage for 2.5 months now. She moved in at the very end of December last year.

Things are very good, as you might expect, since it’s only been 2.5 months. We are experiencing moving in together NRE so the happy emotions are heightened. She’s a corporate gal with a long commute to work, so five days a week she’s gone by the time I wake up, and doesn’t get home until about 6pm, often later than that if she has errands to run after work (which she does at least several days a week).

This separation is actually very good for relationship harmony, at least it has been so far. During the day on weekdays, it almost feels like I live alone. Then, when she comes home in the evening, it feels really good to have her home, and we spend the evening together.

We spend the weekends together also. We usually spend Saturdays running errands with each other (we’re both extremely busy people) and Sundays we relax, going to breakfast or getting Mexican food, and then going out or seeing a movie.

Her job in the insurance industry really stresses her out, and sometimes she needs to talk out her problems when she’s stressed after work. She’s an extrovert and a female and needs to do this sometimes, which is fine with me.

We have sex frequently but not every day. PF has a slightly higher than average sex drive, in that she’s usually not horny, but several times a week she’s really horny, usually for seemingly no reason. I, of course, am always ravenously horny as fuck 24/7. That’s why god invented FB’s. I usually see one of my FB’s once a week, sometimes twice a week but that’s not typical (and PF is mildly annoyed when I see two different women in one week in addition to her, but that’s her problem, and as I said, it doesn’t happen very often.)

Since introducing Pink Firefly to my primary FB (Lunarayn, who I already mentioned here), the three of us have had some very fun experiences (PF likes to watch). I can’t give you more detail about these since I don’t know how much PF wants to reveal. She can provide more info in the comments if she chooses.

Pink Firefly’s jealousy levels have been very low and easily manageable. The only time she gets annoyed is if something out of the normal routine occurs. Every woman in a nonmonogamous relationship has a different pattern, and I’ve learned that Pink Firefly’s is that she’s perfectly fine with the FB situation as long as it follows a predictable pattern. If anything unusual or new occurs, she can get agitated. This is interesting, since the last serious relationship I had was with a woman who was literally the opposite; she loved it when new and unusual things happened, but if she felt I was seeing the same FB’s over and over again, she got upset.

Just remember that if you have an OLTR or want one someday: every woman is very different about the specific things she will like or won’t like in your nonmonogamous relationship. It’s your job to figure out what these things are and mange them.

February was great and March has been great, but January, our first month together, was difficult for both of us. Most of her furniture and boxes were all over the house, she was getting used to a new schedule, I was getting used to having a woman in the house all the time, and her irritating dog was pooping and peeing in the house, and was sometimes barking in the early morning, which obviously really irritated me. Fortunately, all that stuff was rectified by the end of January, and since then it’s been smooth sailing.

Pink Firefly is spending a huge amount of time working on our silly societal ceremony, uh, I mean our wedding, which also causes a lot of stress for her. But as I’ve told her, that’s her problem. She’s a very feminine, emotional person so she tends to stress herself out. She’s getting better though.

She and I have done the first of a few online couple’s assessments (including SYMBIS) which I think are very important. This particular assessment we did with the help of the pastor who is going to perform our ceremony later this year. (For the record, she is a mild Christian, I am agnostic.)

We learned a lot from these assessments and we’ve discussed them several times. My next to-do item for our relationship is to find a relationship counselor for us; not because anything is wrong, but to prevent problems from occurring, and to make sure everything stays as smooth as things are now. I personally view couple’s assessments and at least semi-regular relationship counseling as mandatory if you actually live with a woman and have long-term expectations for the relationship. Regardless of how badass or Alpha you think you are, there are just too many variables in a live-in relationship to control all on your own.

Our biggest issue, if we have one, is that sometimes we have communication issues, since we have such radically opposite personality styles. She’s extremely feminine with high emotions, I’m extremely masculine with low emotions. When she’s agitated, she wants to talk about it for three hours, but I just want to get to a swift conclusion in five minutes and get back to my Mission. In the last 30 days especially, we’ve both gotten much better at relating to the other person. She’s much better at getting to the point and dropping things when the conversation is no longer productive, and I’m much better at just letting her go in back-and-forth discourse even when she’s stressed.

So far, I’d rate our live-in relationship, on a scale from 1 to 10, at about 8.5, perhaps a 9. I’m very happy and very pleased. But as I’ve said many times, that’s easy to say when the live-in aspect is new. Our big test comes at the two-year mark, then again at the three-year mark. If we’re still as happy as we are now at that time, or at least close to it, that will be something. I’m committed to putting in the work necessary to make that happen, and she is too. And of course, I’ll keep all of you posted along the way.

By the way, for anyone who is about to post a negative comment, who else on the internet talks about his open marriage and does so without hiding his identity? Seriously, name one other public person. I don’t think you can. You’re welcome.

Alpha Male 2.0, baby. This stuff works.

More to come.

104 Comments on “Living Together OLTR Update – March 2018

  1. You are supposed to be an expert in relationship management. Why visit a relationship consultant, then?

  2. You are supposed to be an expert in relationship management. Why visit a relationship consultant, then?

    BD’s doing a very bad judgement.
    His happiness state now about to blind him.
    He’s not seeing reality as it is.

    Like I’ve said many times:

    “You can either love women or understand them — never both.”

  3. You are supposed to be an expert in relationship management. Why visit a relationship consultant, then?

    Counselling is about getting a 3rd party unbiased opinion.

    I don’t care who you are, cognitive biases will blind you to things if you’re too close to the subject. Especially when emotions get involved.

    Seeking outside observations helps eliminate cognitive bias from the equation.

    I honestly think his choice to do that is brilliant and very much in line with his desire to reduce drama and solve problems (especially before they become problems affecting his happiness).

    BD, thank you for sharing all the details you do. I’m currently for the first time in my life seeing two different girls, and working on a 3rd. Both know about the other, and I’m having very few issues.

    Only drama I’m experiencing is with the one I live with, but she’s my oldest friend (14 years) and she needed a place to live. Even then though, it’s manageable and mostly new relationship trying to figure out how to meet her emotional needs (male logic vs female emotions on problems/stress).

    While we might disagree on some political things, I agree with you and greatly respect your writings about relationships/alpha 2.0 mindset.

  4. I wish him well, but females run on an entirely different software that no amount of malware/antivirus protection is effective for very long. She may act like she’s okay with it all right now, but given a better option and she’ll be gone.

  5. It’s very interesting to follow you 2 in this journey.

     

    Can you please list or link all the online assesments you did? I looked at Save Your Marriage Before It Starts, but it requires to find a councelor first… So not fully online if I am correct. And it’s not free as far as I understand. How about the others?

     

    I am curious about semi-regular couple counseling: how can you know if the counselor is good and moreover compatible with the Alpha 2.0 lifestyle? I automatically imagined a femininazi or traditional conservative councelor, who would league with Pink Firefly against you on any disagreement and point of tension. On top of which immediately recommending that you must stop having sex with other women and attend the sex addicts anonymous meetings. I guess my knee-jerk imagination is incorrect, at least I hope so, so yeah more info on that would be super interesting to hopefully destroy my negative cliché about relationship counseling.

  6. Love it BD 🙂 It’s great to hear some updates on how things have been going since move-in. It’s so nice to have some relate-able experiences.

    My next to-do item for our relationship is to find a relationship counselor for us; not because anything is wrong, but to prevent problems from occurring, and to make sure everything stays as smooth as things are now. 

    I am a huge advocate of this as well. I always like to be pro-active and not just deal with problems after they become issues, but see the potential for them and make sure things are ironed out and well communicated before that ever happens. It’s no different than routine maintenance for your car. Sure you ONLY put your car in the shop after it breaks down on you, only its going to cost you a pretty penny. A little preventative maintenance along the way now and then makes a big difference.

    On a personal note, my OLTR absolutely REFUSES to every be legally married again after getting royally fucked from his divorce. Can’t really blame him there. As a woman though, I have to admit that I do want to have a nice wedding. I could care less about legality though, I just want to have that DAY, and it be a special thing, all about US. He has agreed that he would be open to having more of a “Commitment Ceremony”, basically just like a traditional wedding, only no legality involved, no “we are married” or a priest. Just us, sharing our vows with each other in front of family and friends and having a beautiful ceremony and lots of fun. I proposed we see how things are after 3-4 years or so, and perhaps then we can look at actually doing that. So far, things are really great, and we are coming up on 2 years of living together. Our relationship has done nothing but got stronger and deeper.

  7. BD I can’t thank you enough for sharing your story and for all the valuable information in your posts, books etc.  I’m a happy Alpha 2 in part because of the guideposts you’ve created from your experiences and those of others.  Reading your posts has also helped my OLTR to understand me better.  Although we already communicate well, having another perspective has really helped us.

    I am also impressed that you are willing to acknowledge that even “experts” can use outside guidance, observations etc, especially when living with another person.  One only has to read the section on “experts” in Taleb’s wonderful book “The Black Swan” to see that everyone can have potential blind spots.

    BD you’re much appreciated!

     

  8. My ex wife and I went to couples counseling for several years before we got married.  I think it was a crucial success factor on us staying together for 20 years, and wholeheartedly endorse it.

    That said, no amount of therapy is going to keep them from leaving (because as BD points out, women live getting married but hate being married) but it does improve the relationship while you have it.

    Thanks for the update BD.

  9. Why people seem so obsessed with women staying on?

    I wish him well, but females run on an entirely different software that no amount of malware/antivirus protection is effective for very long. She may act like she’s okay with it all right now, but given a better option and she’ll be gone.

    I guess we miss the point. The point is long term relationship, not KEEP them. So as long as they stay good. If they leave good. If they return good. If they bring drama good we leave.

    I don’t believe you count success of a realtionship based on forever and ever or years together. I personally count success as this: keep my freedom and happiness through any relationship. And keep the woman attracted even if she leaves.

    The she leaves part should not be of concern of 2.0s.

  10. @BD

    “This separation is actually very good for relationship harmony, at least it has been so far. During the day on weekdays, it almost feels like I live alone.”

    This would be key if I ever decide to do a live-in OLTR type thing in the future.  I can’t be on the same schedule as her as I’ll quickly feel suffocated.  This is what made my last live in situation so miserable for me.  I’m introverted so I require some me time during the week to get my energy.  My ideal would be a girl that worked on occasional weekends and had a staggered schedule to mine during the week (or traveled for work sometimes).  I know myself well enough to realize I need that time to myself to cohabitate.

    Best wishes to you and PF!

     

  11. Hey Hey, valid point, having managed 24 years in a marriage and watch my blushing bride morph into a stranger at 44 l can see how the forever thing rarely happens or even is preferred.

    Spinning plates though is a game for youth, l lost my taste for it at 34, in your 40’s women become a pain in the ass and often even one is too much to put up with.

    I just turned 63 , my latest relationship lasting a year , ending this past month. I find myself in many ways strangely relieved and will probably Monk Mode for a while…The juice as they say is often not worth the squeeze.

  12. I was married for a long time. Divorced and had a blast for a decade.  Dove head first into making up for lost time and DAMN was it fun. Now, I’m older and totally get it. Past a certain age (around 40) most men really do want to pair-bond and settle down. I have as well. The key is doing it with the right woman and in such as way as to avoid future divorce rape, should it come to that. BD’s OLTR marriage isn’t exactly my cup of tea. But if it works for him and his wife, that’s fantastic. Best of luck and much happiness to them!

  13. And keep the woman attracted even if she leaves.

    If she was attracted she wouldnt leave. And if you are going to say that she left because of bla bla, well then she was maybe still a bit attracted but not that attracted. Its like saying it was nice to spend time with you but I dont want to meet you again. Clearly it was perhaps nice but not that much.

  14. BD Great post! Can you post that link “if you’re new start here” weird I can’t find it.

    PF I feel your pain on the commute to work. I live in the suburbs and work in Atlanta (about an hour one way and traffic is worse on the ride home). Sucks but I love my job.

  15. Thank you for the encouragement.

    For those of you staying this won’t work, you need to read this article here where I directly address that. (Also remember that this blog, and your comments, will be on the internet forever, and it will be really fun to quote these negative comments in future posts several years from now. So if you think this won’t work, you’d better be sure, or else you’re going to look pretty stupid down the road.)

    I am an odds player. That’s how I view all of life. I don’t assume anything I do will have a 100% chance of working. Instead I do two things:

    1. Do everything in my power to place the odds in my favor (like seeing a relationships counselor) rather than trying to be a tough guy, or satisfying my ego, or following Societal Programming.

    2. Arrange logistics so that if things don’t work out, I’m perfectly fine and carry on without any problems.

    I do this in my business life, my personal life, my financial life, and so on. Very few men do this, but I do, and you should too.

    Can you please list or link all the online assesments you did?

    I will in the future. We’re not done doing them.

    how can you know if the counselor is good and moreover compatible with the Alpha 2.0 lifestyle?

    All you need to ensure is that the counselor has experience in counseling nonmonogamous couples. I live in the Pacific NW where society is extremely left-wing, so most relationship counselors here are well versed in open marriages and polyamory and don’t find it strange it all. So it’s pretty easy, at least where I live.

    I automatically imagined a femininazi or traditional conservative councelor, who would league with Pink Firefly against you on any disagreement and point of tension.

    Why would I choose a counselor like that?

    On a personal note, my OLTR absolutely REFUSES to every be legally married again after getting royally fucked from his divorce.

    Good for him.

    As a woman though, I have to admit that I do want to have a nice wedding. I could care less about legality though, I just want to have that DAY, and it be a special thing, all about US.

    Yes, that’s how most women feel (ah, Disney). Explain to him he can have a wedding and it doesn’t have to be legal. If he still refuses, I guess you’ll have to wait until your next OLTR.

    That said, no amount of therapy is going to keep them from leaving (because as BD points out, women live getting married but hate being married) but it does improve the relationship while you have it.

    Precisely. Again, it’s all about putting odds in your favor, not ensuring a particular result.

    I was in marriage counseling with my last wife and it didn’t help at all. Very different scenario though. I was trying to repair something that had already been destroyed (like the conservatives with Western civ). Here, I’m trying to strengthen something that’s already working. Better odds.

    “This separation is actually very good for relationship harmony, at least it has been so far. During the day on weekdays, it almost feels like I live alone.”

    This would be key if I ever decide to do a live-in OLTR type thing in the future.  I can’t be on the same schedule as her as I’ll quickly feel suffocated.

    Yes. At some point, PF will be leaving her stupid corporate job and work from home like me. At that point, we’ll have to arrange several systems to make sure we get a lot of separation. I’ve already rented a small office so I have somewhere to “go” (and to play with FB‘s).

    BD Great post! Can you post that link “if you’re new start here” weird I can’t find it

    It’s here but it’s pretty dated.

  16. Couples’ counseling? Really? I’m sorry man, but that is just some gay ass blue pill shit! Not as bad as getting married, but still pretty castrating.

    At least make sure you pick a psychologist, not a psychiatrist, as the psychologist is way less likely to get a court order and have you committed for an “evaluation” when a pissed off PF utters the magic word – “abuse.”

    Remember, “abuse” doesn’t have to be physical in the fucked up world of “Professional Fragile Snowflakes, MD.”

    Are you going to aim for a sex-positive therapist who is in the poly world themselves? Because….yeah…..most shrinks will tell you that sleeping with other women is “abusive” and “patriarchal.” Then they will ask you how long have you had this tendency to “objectify women” and is it possible that you’re a “rape apologist.”

    And yes, sexaholics anonymous is definitely going to be a cult that the therapist will recommend in order to “help you with your illness.” Oh boy! Can you post about your therapy sessions here? The tears of laughter will flow!

    P.S. If you’re looking for some REAL relationship advice from an objective source, I’d like to humbly recommend myself and all of us here! We’ll tell you shit no therapist would ever dare! 🙂

     

  17. If she was attracted she wouldnt leave. And if you are going to say that she left because of bla bla, well then she was maybe still a bit attracted but not that attracted. Its like saying it was nice to spend time with you but I dont want to meet you again. Clearly it was perhaps nice but not that much.

    You are very wrong. A woman can be hugely attracted to you and leave because she wants marriage, she can’t stand being jealous etc. and she’s had enough with you for not playing ball.

    Women don’t return at the usual arrangement without attraction. Unless you are her provider(which in this case you are her slave).

    If you count your success and pressing yourself to keep them then you are missing the point.

    Yes long term relationship but through attraction not through doing her favours and falling back on your codes.

    And attraction comes from standing your ground and OI.

  18. Why people seem so obsessed with women staying on?

    Wrong outcome.  You are trying to improve results while they are there.  Being successful at that outcome tends to keep them around.

    Anyone doing it backwards (trying to keep someone who doesn’t want to stay) is a exercise in futility.

  19. By the way, for anyone who is about to post a negative comment, who else on the internet talks about his open marriage and does so without hiding his identity?

    Off the top of my head:

    Penn Jillette

    Eliezer Yudkowsky

    I’m sure a cursory search will yield more results.

  20. I am a huge advocate of this as well.

    LOL! Of course you are!

    I always like to be pro-active and not just deal with problems after they become issues, but see the potential for them and make sure things are ironed out and well communicated before that ever happens.

    You can do that without a shrink.

    It’s no different than routine maintenance for your car.

    That’s exactly how psychiatrists see human beings; not as living things, but as non-living objects who just need the right combination of chemicals and raw materials in their brain to produce the desired behavior. Pretty dehumanizing.

    Sure you ONLY put your car in the shop after it breaks down on you, only its going to cost you a pretty penny. A little preventative maintenance along the way now and then makes a big difference.

    HAHAHA!!!! I can’t wait to hear about the “trust exercises” and the “buy a notebook and write down how you feel every time your partner does something that you feel is abusive, or hurtful to your self-esteem as a woman” advice! I wonder if the shrink will also break out the “talking stick.”

    On a personal note, my OLTR absolutely REFUSES to every be legally married again after getting royally fucked from his divorce.

    Awesome!

    As a woman though,

    Oh, here we go. Disney programming in…….3………2…………..1

    I have to admit that I do want to have a nice wedding.

    For what? Public virtue signaling?

    I just want to have that DAY, and it be a special thing, all about US.

    You mean, all about YOU! The man is just an accessory on YOUR special day where everyone worships you while you get high off the attention and external communal validation.

    He has agreed that he would be open to having more of a “Commitment Ceremony”, basically just like a traditional wedding, only no legality involved,

    My girlfriend wanted that. I said no. Since all relationships are temporary, the vows would go like this:

    “I promise to stay with you for as long as I want to. And I will endeavor to maintain this relationship for as long as you don’t get too annoying, maintain a high sex drive, continue our poly lifestyle, and keep the drama low. Amen!”

    ……And there wasn’t a dry eye in the entire building. ROFLMAO!!!!!!

    Even “commitment ceremonies” are lies when you know you won’t be spending the rest of your lives together.

    Just us, sharing our vows with each other

    Can’t you do that in the privacy of your own bedroom with some fucking dignity?

    in front of family and friends

    See, this is the part I don’t get! Why do you want to virtue signal? This is narcissistic. Why do you want your family and friends to witness you pouring your hearts out to each other?

    Why not just make a sex tape and send it to your mom?

    and having a beautiful ceremony and lots of fun.

    A public, validation seeking, self-congratulatory, collectivistic pat on the back from “the whole community.” I’ve never had this need for group social approval, as I was always an introvert and prided myself on going against everyone’s expectations, which explains why I didn’t really get laid in college.

     

     

  21. Off the top of my head:

    Penn Jillette

    Barely counts. He’s very coy about it and never gives specifics.

    Eliezer Yudkowsky

    Haha, who the fuck is that? No need to answer; just making a point.

    I’m sure a cursory search will yield more results.

    Guys with open marriages using their real names providing the level of detail I am about their relationships?

    Good luck with that.

  22. Mario Favela insists on kissing on the first date

    He seems to insist on sex on the first date as well, that’s the most obvious difference from BD’s approach.

  23. Guys with open marriages using their real names providing the level of detail I am about their relationships?

    You never said anything about level of detail in your original statement. Welcome to the “attribute to BD words he never said” club, BD : )

    Of course hardly anyone showcases their relationships in detail because hardly anyone is a relationship coach like you are. Which is, by the way, a problem, the world can surely use a couple more evidence-based relationship coaches.

  24. If she was attracted she wouldnt leave. And if you are going to say that she left because of bla bla, well then she was maybe still a bit attracted but not that attracted. Its like saying it was nice to spend time with you but I dont want to meet you again. Clearly it was perhaps nice but not that much.

    You are very wrong. A woman can be hugely attracted to you and leave because she wants marriage, she can’t stand being jealous etc. and she’s had enough with you for not playing ball.

    Agree. Though a woman who is still attracted may “leave you” as a MLTR/OLTR but still bounce back a few times just to fuck you, but technically she still left.

  25. I’ll second what Hey Hey said, last two LTR‘s of mine were still very attracted to me but weren’t getting what they wanted so they left.  The first wanted monogamy and marriage, I wouldn’t give either.  The second wanted monogamy and extreme “emotional availability” around the clock.  I gave monogamy but not the latter.

    They both left.  The first has already “come back” a few times for sex.  The second, too soon to tell…

     

  26. The second wanted monogamy and extreme “emotional availability” around the clock. 

    Descrube what this this sort of neediness looked like.  I’m dying to hear this.

    Also, just because you gave her what she asked for does not guarantee she won’t come back with additional demands or still won’t leave.

    Enjoy them while they are with you, and realize they are replaceable when they leave.

  27. You never said anything about level of detail in your original statement. Welcome to the “attribute to BD words he never said” club, BD : )

    Here is my original statement: “who else on the internet talks about his open marriage and does so without hiding his identity?”

    Just stating you have an open marriage and that’s it, or making two or three vague hints about how you still have fun in your marriage and that’s it, is not “talking about your open marriage,” especially within the context I said it.

    I’ll second what Hey Hey said, last two LTR’s of mine were still very attracted to me but weren’t getting what they wanted so they left.

    Correct, and I’ve said it many times. Women leave betas because they’re not attracted. Women leave Alphas not because they’re not attracted (they still are), but because they won’t go along with the Disney agenda. 100% of my ex FB‘s and MLTR‘s were still attracted to me when they left me. That’s why 94% came back.

    This is why it’s actually easier to maintain an OLTR longer than a FB or MLTR, since the OLTR is indeed getting a lot of the Disney aspects the FB and MLTR isn’t receiving (and in the case of MLTR‘s, wants).

    Did the mother of your kids ever remarry?

    No.

  28. @Jack Outside the box

    “Why not just make a sex tape and send it to your mom?”

    Ok this shit made me laugh pretty hard.  I agree that the wedding ceremony is just for her to act like a queen for the day.  They enjoy all the ass kissing from the engagement all the way through.  You can see that look of victory on their face knowing they’ve now got the guy by the balls legally on the actual day.  I get a special little tingle when I see wedding day pics of women that have cheated on their husbands with me.  Social proof/validation is a very powerful piece of SP that most people succumb to at some point.  No one gives people doing the non monogamy thing any props in public (just privately often since there is some envy when they see us doing what they can only dream of).

  29. @ C Lo

    Descrube what this this sort of neediness looked like.  I’m dying to hear this.

    Probably an oversimplification on my part but I was referring to expectations (and demands) of frequent and regular texting with emotional significance,  insistence and drama creation for more and more of my time within 1 month of dating, constant complaints about not giving enough compliments, accusations of no empathy when I didn’t react to drams or comply with emotional demands thrown my way, etc.  When I maintained frame (this was my biggest test since my marriage and I admittedly failed to hold frame a few times) I was ‘belittling’ ‘invalidating’, and ‘insensitive’.

    Also, just because you gave her what she asked for does not guarantee she won’t come back with additional demands or still won’t leave.

    Absolutely!  Case in point, the first woman got nothing of what she wanted, left, but came back anyways.  The second got monogamy from me (way too early) and more of my gooey soft center than I normally offer up.  Still not enough, fast enough.

    Enjoy them while they are with you, and realize they are replaceable when they leave.

    This right here. It’s liberating.  It’s only your turn.  Doesn’t mean we can’t love but it’s the only healthy way to approach relationships with women.

  30. I am 41. Married for 18 years. We have 15 year old daughter. We have sex from two times per week to two times per day depending on horniness levels. I’ve been asked about how we manage to do it so I assume others consider this relationship “successful”.

    Now, to the point. Everything is my opinion only.

    If you need some “counselor” to coach you both, not matter how enlightened the counselor is or how you just want to “prevent problems”, your relationship is already damaged. Right there and then. The frame is set.

    A man doesn’t need any “counselor” to sort anything out with his wife. You lead, she follows. She works with you. She goes along with you. Nothing to sort out or prevent. If she doesn’t, your relationship is damaged.

    You can use a counselor to repair a damaged relationship. Possibly. You won’t have any frame or respect from your wife after that. So, don’t do that.

    One exception is, when you go to the shrink alone. You sort your own issues and then come back to the relationship. And you don’t tell anyone. I did that at some point. The issues were personal ones, not relationship ones but still.

  31. A man doesn’t need any “counselor” to sort anything out with his wife. You lead, she follows.

    You are an Alpha Male 1.0. Not only do I not want a relationship like yours, I don’t want a relationship that looks anything like what you have. I appreciate the advice, but it doesn’t apply to a man like me.

  32. Blackdragon says the opposite.  Whom to believe?

    I don’t think his question is ‘off topic’ to this blog, as it is not a minor point.  There is a direct contradiction between Game thought leaders on a crucial step in the seduction process.

    If BD is right, he should do another article at another time to explain WHY some PUAs think kissing on the first date is a must (and apparently have gotten results from it), why BD’s approach mandates not doing this on the first date.

    Until that point, students will face confusion.

     

     

  33. You can use a counselor to repair a damaged relationship. 

    Not necessarily.  If she relationship is damaged to the point where you need a therapist, it’s probably over (see BDs comments earlier about his experience with his ex wife).  Break up, save the money and energy, and move on.

    I’m glad you are in a LTR that works for you, but what you are doing would never work for me.    Im far too independent for a dominant chick, do okay with a submissive one, and am happiest around another independent woman.

    Given the sort of man that you are (I agree with BD) and the type of submissive woman you married, I can see why you would have that opinion, and agree that hiring a therapist would be a waste for you.  Probably JOTB too.

    Ive done a fair amount of consulting.  The best indicator of if a consulting project is going to be successful is if the client actually wants to commit to solving the problem.  A surprising number want to just bitch about it.  Those are clients  I try to not work with again.

  34. Most of the tough guy Alpha 1.0 comments about counselors show right off the bat they don’t even know what counseling is (hint: most aren’t psychologists or psychiatrists and certainly not coaches that install a framework for your life). So, it’s hard to make an argument starting with a faulty premise. Mostly just an exercise in chest-puffing and trying (and failing) to show how much more manlier everyone is than BD. Funny. I’m a little skeptical of the OLTR myself; I never want another marriage of any type. But I have no criticism rooted in odd personal attacks and “gotcha” stuff. Experts consult other experts and other help all the time. Real men know when they can’t just will things to happen against the universe.

  35. @Jack Outside the box

    “Why not just make a sex tape and send it to your mom?”

    Ok this shit made me laugh pretty hard.

    You’re welcome! 🙂

    I agree that the wedding ceremony is just for her to act like a queen for the day.  They enjoy all the ass kissing from the engagement all the way through.

    Exactly. The man is worthless garbage to most of these wedding obsessed women. He’s just an accessory who’s job is to remember his lines and not embarrass the goddess. Everyone gets to worship her, stand up and look at her as she walks down the aisle, compliment her non-stop, and blow sunshine up her ass while ignoring him, or patting him on the back to tell him how “lucky” he is and to not screw this up!

    They say the one and only sweet moment (for the man) during the wedding is when she’s walking down that aisle and everyone is looking at her while she’s the only one looking at you, but I doubt that that’s where she’s looking. She’s probably thinking to herself, “does this dress make me look fat?”

    I fucked a woman once on her wedding morning who married her fiancé a few hours later. Her biggest concern was that I not fuck her too hard so she can walk straight. Her second biggest concern was which one of her friends would catch the bouquet so that she can attend her wedding next as a bridesmaid (as per the arrangement she had with three of her engaged friends).

    You can see that look of victory on their face knowing they’ve now got the guy by the balls legally on the actual day.

    I admit that if marriage were a patriarchal institution, instead of the matriarchal one that it currently is, most men who relish that day with glee as well (not counting those of us who don’t believe in inviting the government into our bedrooms or receiving any bullshit external validation from “the community”).

    But as it stands now, it is a day of public castration and humiliation for the man as she essentially parades his severed head for her entire tribe to see, while his friends watch and essentially attend his funeral. Poor guy.

    I get a special little tingle when I see wedding day pics of women that have cheated on their husbands with me.

    Fuck yeah! So do I, brother! So do I!

    Social proof/validation is a very powerful piece of SP that most people succumb to at some point.  No one gives people doing the non monogamy thing any props in public (just privately often since there is some envy when they see us doing what they can only dream of).

    Let the beta workers live out their delusions. How else can those of us with a fetish for other men’s monogamous wives sleep with them if they don’t become monogamous wives in the first place? 🙂

    We will continue profiting from their stupidity and having a hell of a good time.

     

     

  36. I can see why you would have that opinion, and agree that hiring a therapist would be a waste for you.  Probably JOTB too.

    I see therapists as emotional prostitutes. I prefer a real friend instead of a fake one who I have to pay to pretend to be my friend. I HATE mixing the professional with the personal!

    I’m against all prostitution for me (sexual AND emotional). It’s either the real thing or nothing! If my woman and I can’t solve our problems by ourselves, the relationship is doomed. I’m NOT going to put our relationship in the hands of an emotional hooker for 200 dollars an hour.

    Plus, as Kryptokate once said, despite the modern day worship of “Dr.” Phil style “communication,” most relationship problems are fairly easy to solve and require less than a two minute conversation. If you require an entire hour to explain yourself, you’re just trying to frame the situation in such a way that will give you more power in the relationship.

    Couples’ counseling is a power play in which the woman enlists a politically correct ally to help bash the man with a baseball bat. Like most alphas, I prefer to handle my problems internally and genuinely; in dignity, outside of prying PC eyes.

     

     

     

  37. why BD’s approach mandates not doing this on the first date.

    I can tell you why I don’t. It builds tension and deflates ASD.

    Back in college I knew this lady who was blonde, cute, little, huge tits, and massive sex drive.  She was also an attention whore, and there were tons of thirsty men chasing her, so she knew exactly what she was doing.  Anyway, she went out with this guy for the first time (who I knew was a huge player) and I remember he held the door, pulled out her chair, walked her home (all spots to use kino), and didn’t even try to kiss her.

    BD talks about a woman’s three buttons (sex/meh/make him wait) and this was the first time I ever knowingly saw a woman turned on to the point of distraction the next day when we were talking about it at lunch.  She went to the trouble to tell me she was going to cut lunch short and home to use her vibrator.

    Needless to say, she couldn’t wait to see him again, and when she did I think she fucked him as soon as he got the door closed (I knew him and he told me about it later),

    I was like 19 and at the time I had no idea why this worked, but recognized good technique when I saw it, and adopted it accordingly.  Reading BDs book explained why it’s good technique.  There is big power in knowing how to escalate and withdraw.  Demonstrates OI and shows you are sexual but not needy or a thirsty creep.

  38. Most of the tough guy Alpha 1.0 comments about counselors show right off the bat they don’t even know what counseling is (hint: most aren’t psychologists or psychiatrists and certainly not coaches that install a framework for your life).

    First of all, this has nothing to do with being a “tough guy.” This has to do with being against castration, emotional prostitution, and the belief in keeping one’s dignity. No one should be paying money to emotional hookers to solve their personal problems, which they should solve either by themselves, or with the assistance of true friends (for free).

    So, it’s hard to make an argument starting with a faulty premise.

    You’d be surprised how controlling many of these emotional hookers can be.

    Mostly just an exercise in chest-puffing and trying (and failing) to show how much more manlier everyone is than BD. Funny.

    I’m not trying to show that I’m manlier than BD. I’m trying to point out that what he’s doing lacks self-esteem and needlessly gives away power over his own self.

    I’m a little skeptical of the OLTR myself; I never want another marriage of any type. But I have no criticism rooted in odd personal attacks and “gotcha” stuff.

    These weren’t meant as personal attacks from me. They were meant as genuine concern (albeit with laugher). And since I know that BD is going to tell me to go fuck myself and do what he likes anyway, I don’t have to be tactful in a way that I’d have to be when having an actual chance to persuade someone that what they’re doing is wrong.

    Experts consult other experts and other help all the time.

    Just what type of “help” could you get from a “couples’ therapist?” BD is not even monogamous. And he doesn’t tolerate drama. If PF has a problem with him and addresses it with him calmly, they can work it out together without consulting fucking “Dr.” Phil.

    Real men know when they can’t just will things to happen against the universe.

    First of all, real men don’t say “real men.” Only PC betas talk like that when they are trying to shame the masculinity of alphas. The next thing they say is something retarded like “real men are secure enough to cry in public,” or “real men are secure enough in their own heterosexual masculinity to experiment with butt fucking another man.”

    Second of all, what exactly won’t happen that you want to happen without renting an emotional prostitute?

     

     

     

  39. I see therapists as emotional prostitutes. 

    Oddly enough, I feel similarly about lawyers and doctors.  Yet I have both.  And a nutritionist and a cycling coach and a CPA.  Why?  Because I am smart guy, and I realize that they are smarter than I am in their specialty.

    Come to think of it, that’s exactly why I participate here on Caleb’s sites.

    I think it comes down to this – do you want to be proactive or reactive to your problems?

    Or, are you egotistical enough to just figure you have all the answers?  

    If that’s the case, why are you participating on a personal development blog to begin with?

  40. I prefer a real friend instead of a fake one who I have to pay to pretend to be my friend. I HATEmixing the professional with the personal!

    Friends lie to you in order to not hurt your feelings.  Plus they gossip.

    I hire professionals so they will be honest.  And keep their mouth shut.

    Professional services are just that.  And, considering that you have been a litigator, I find your position on sex workers interesting.  With the obvious mechanical differences noted, it’s just a professional service (where someone is getting paid to get screwed).

     

  41. Oddly enough, I feel similarly about lawyers and doctors.

    This makes no sense. Lawyers address legal problems, not emotional ones.

    And doctors address problems with the human body, not the personality.

    Yet I have both.  And a nutritionist

    See above, re: doctor.

    and a cycling coach and a CPA.

    Dude, you’re conflating the personal/emotional with the legal, medical, physical, and financial. That’s not what I meant.

    Come to think of it, that’s exactly why I participate here on Caleb’s sites.

    You mean his blogs that are completely free where we can help each other and give real advice without asking anyone for a single penny? Dude, I’m not against friendship (online or otherwise).

    Do you really think I’m against friendship? Or helping people by giving friendly advice? That’s not what I meant!

    And before you say that BD sells ebooks for money, those products convey general strategies. It is your job to integrate them into your specific life and your specific issues. If you want help with your specific issues, or specific advice about your personal life from friends (including online friends), that’s fine. But in case you haven’t noticed, we’re not charging you anything here.

    Or, are you egotistical enough to just figure you have all the answers?

    Like I said, I’m not against friendship, or giving friendly advice.

    If that’s the case, why are you participating on a personal development blog to begin with?

    Like I said, I’m not against friendship or helpful advice from a community of red pill individuals who are giving each other genuine advice for free. And I’m also not against selling products for money conveying specific strategies that can be tailored to individual needs based on the individual’s own judgment.

    What I am against is emotional prostitution from so called “mental health professionals” whose goal is to essentially shame you into following a PC script. Sheesh!

     

     

         

     

  42. Friends lie to you in order to not hurt your feelings.  Plus they gossip.

    That’s why you must choose your real life friends wisely.

    I hire professionals so they will be honest.  And keep their mouth shut.

    I agree with that. As long as we are talking about professional subjects.

    Professional services are just that.  And, considering that you have been a litigator, I find your position on sex workers interesting.  With the obvious mechanical differences noted, it’s just a professional service (where someone is getting paid to get screwed).

    I honestly don’t even know where to begin here. A lawyer is not your friend. His job is to assist you with a legal dispute. Not hold your hand and tell you that you should “be more considerate of your girlfriend’s feelings.”

    We need lawyers to help people defend their human rights and civil liberties. Whereas, sex is not just a mechanical act that the “giver” can just give to the receiver like a CPA doing your taxes.

    Sex is always mutual in the biological sense. So for one to “give only” and not receive, thus lending itself towards physical numbness during the sex act, is a rather sick perversion of an otherwise organically mutual and inherently personal (read: not professional) activity.

    If you still think that all of these things are distinctions without differences on my part, I really don’t know how else to explain this to you.

    You’re just going to have to trust me when I say there’s a huge difference between what we do here in the red pill community (genuinely and sincerely helping each other out) and the “mental health profession” that is just as sick and demented as literal prostitution.

    I genuinely am sorry, but I don’t really know how else to explain it.

    What we do here on this blog = the psychological equivalent of consensual sex.

    What professional therapists do = the psychological equivalent of literal prostitution.

     

     

     

     

  43. Mario Favela insists on kissing on the first date (as does Roosh) :

    Blackdragon says the opposite.  Whom to believe?

    Kissing should never be separated from sex. You never kiss a woman for the first time, unless you’re about to rip each other’s clothes off in the next few minutes.

    Actually, you should never kiss a woman at all unless (1) you’re about to have sex right now, (2) you are in the middle of having sex right now, or (3) you’ve just finished having sex and are indulging in some passionate post-sex kissing.

    All other kissing (totally separated from the act of sex) is childish and screams “teenager.” Exceptions can be made for “hello” and “goodbye” kisses in already established relationships, but that’s it.

    So, should you kiss on the first date? Well, are you alone in your home (or her home) with her and it’s clear that you’re about to fuck? If so, then start kissing her. If not, then no.

    And you certainly never kiss a woman at the end of a first date when dropping her off or whatever, especially if you’ve never had sex with her before. That’s just pure 1950s beta behavior!

     

     

     

  44. A lawyer is not your friend. 

    Technically neither is a prostitute.

    I would never use a friend for professional services, nor would I hire one, nor am I generally friends outside of work with people that I know socially.

    Why would I ever put that kind of pressure on a social relationship?  It’s selfish and needy to the extreme.  And it’s bound to fail you.

  45. @NoNameDude

    One exception is, when you go to the shrink alone. You sort your own issues and then come back to the relationship. And you don’t tell anyone. I did that at some point. The issues were personal ones, not relationship ones but still.

    I would say that MOST “problems” people have with any relationships stem back to their own personal issues anyways

  46. As a woman though, I have to admit that I do want to have a nice wedding. I could care less about legality though, I just want to have that DAY, and it be a special thing, all about US.
    Yes, that’s how most women feel (ah, Disney). Explain to him he can have a wedding and it doesn’t have to be legal. If he still refuses, I guess you’ll have to wait until your next OLTR.

    That’s exactly what I was saying, we can have a “wedding” for all intent an purposes without ever compromising ourselves legally. He thinks its a great idea, and is 100% down for that.

    You mean, all about YOU! The man is just an accessory on YOUR special day where everyone worships you while you get high off the attention and external communal validation.

    LOL, It cracks me up the assumptions thrown out on here sometimes!

    Even “commitment ceremonies” are lies when you know you won’t be spending the rest of your lives together.

    Who said “commitment” and vows had anything at all to do with spending the rest of our lives together?

    Exactly. The man is worthless garbage to most of these wedding obsessed women. He’s just an accessory who’s job is to remember his lines and not embarrass the goddess. Everyone gets to worship her, stand up and look at her as she walks down the aisle, compliment her non-stop, and blow sunshine up her ass while ignoring him, or patting him on the back to tell him how “lucky” he is and to not screw this up!

    Sooo much jaded cynicism. Let’s not confuse relationships here with your typical bullshit monogamous marriages

  47. I agree that the wedding ceremony is just for her to act like a queen for the day.  They enjoy all the ass kissing from the engagement all the way through.

    One disturbing trend I’ve been privy to is that MEN seek this out more than chicks nowadays. Its quite unsettling. One of my buddies is addicted to the thought of the perfect wedding and shit. It makes me want to kick him in the nuts to see if he still has a set lol.

    Why people seem so obsessed with women staying on?

    Because for the last five millennia we’ve been dictated by a culture that tells us that neediness is not only good, its ethical. I affectionately call it “Crush Culture.”

    A man doesn’t need any “counselor” to sort anything out with his wife. You lead, she follows. She works with you. She goes along with you. Nothing to sort out or prevent. If she doesn’t, your relationship is damaged.

    Aaaaaaand there’s the major narrative of Crush Culture. By the way, women flip the script, switch the genders and preach the same thing. And they’ve been succeeding. This kind of narrative is at the core of many an abusive relationship. To me its antiquated and in many cases, unnecessary.

     

  48. All you need to ensure is that the counselor has experience in counseling nonmonogamous couples.

    Yes, that’s precisely my question: how do you know that? Did you call a bunch of councellor and asked them directly, or did you use one who was recommended by several nonmonogamous couples? Did you find one online who advertises him/herself as experienced in nonmonogamy?

    Sorry if my question is stupid, I just have no experience whatsoever with councelling, but I defnitely think this could help a lot, as long as the councelor has proven positive experience with nonmonogamy.

  49.  I’ve already rented a small office so I have somewhere to “go” (and to play with FB’s).

    More info about this please!  How much did the small office cost?  Are you fucking on work chairs?  How do you plan to lay now FB‘s the first two times to lock them in?  It seems using an excuse to bring them to your house would be a lot easier then getting them to come to your office and trying to bang them.  Are you going to tell new potential FB‘s up front that you have a “wife”?

  50. Wait Wait.

     

    So you are in a marriage now ?

     

    I know it’s an open one but still.. what happened to all the anti marriage articles you had written over the years ?

    I thought the ideal model you advocated was a non monogamous relationship with no formal marriage involving any legal contracts.

  51. Yes, that’s precisely my question: how do you know that? Did you call a bunch of councellor and asked them directly

    Yep. Jesus dude, it’s not that complicated.

    More info about this please!  How much did the small office cost?  Are you fucking on work chairs?  How do you plan to lay now FB’s the first two times to lock them in?  It seems using an excuse to bring them to your house would be a lot easier then getting them to come to your office and trying to bang them.  Are you going to tell new potential FB’s up front that you have a “wife”?

    Those are all topics I will cover in great detail in the future, either as blog posts or books or both.

    Wait Wait.

    So you are in a marriage now ?

    I know it’s an open one but still.. what happened to all the anti marriage articles you had written over the years ?

    I thought the ideal model you advocated was a non monogamous relationship with no formal marriage involving any legal contracts.

    You haven’t been keeping up. You must sign some form of legal contract when a woman lives with you in order to protect you financially. Read this.

  52. Hi BD and the community,

    Considering NRE, I was wondering, if you get it with a woman, do you consider it a sign that she is a MLTR candidate, or do you get NRE with FBs as well?

    It’s always a pleasure reading through the posts and comments. Cheers!

  53. Jack, you don’t know hoe to explain your position because it’s emotional not rational. All your points are your feels and not facts.

  54. EDIT/UPDATE: Listen. Are you listening? Good. If you’re a long-term reader of my stuff, and immediately assume that buying a ring for a woman automatically means monogamy and/or legally combining finances with her at some point in the future, then with all due respect, you’re either an idiot, or you are deeply seeped in false Societal Programming. Calm the fuck down

    Maybe BD needs to sticky this like the OT or my personal favorite “there’s this one special girl” thread…

  55. You can use a counselor to repair a damaged relationship. 

    Here I meant CANNOT. Sorry, little typo. Repair yourself, yes. Relationship, no.

    Most of the tough guy Alpha 1.0 comments about counselors show right off the bat they don’t even know what counseling is (hint: most aren’t psychologists or psychiatrists and certainly not coaches that install a framework for your life).

    I know what I was talking about. At some point I did a training in this matters. I haven’t practices it outside of the training environment though.

    Wait Wait.
    So you are in a marriage now ?

    I am honestly very excited to see how this will play out for Caleb. This is a rare opportunity to see something like this happening in a public.

  56. I have 2 questions BD that are core to what you are trying to do.

    1. What is PF’s family view of your relationship? I assume they know your views and practices so how are they coping with your relationship going to the next level? How are you getting along with them?

    2. Thats my most burning question that I struggle with in my own personal life. The Alpha male 2.0 lifestyle doesnt accept control and restrictions from women but also doesnt impose control or restrictions to them either. You have never elaborated on this…

    Your women will have sex with other guys. For FB‘s you couldnt care less but what about high end mltr’s and OLTR‘s? Now I know that if you maintain your frame that is far less likely and far less frequently to occur but it will at some point with women you really care about. How do you cope with that emotionally and practically? Especially since women that are jealous will be far less subtle about it than you are and will likely use it to get an angry emotional response from you

     

    Many Thanks

  57. (Responding to an earlier comment)  Eliezer Yudkowsky is one of our more brilliant thinkers.  His book “Rationality: From AI to Zombies” is a collection of his blogs, exposing biases in our thinking etc.  Like BD, he deserves a wide audience.

  58. Agree with Woodsie. Admittedly kind of arrogant/smartass sometimes, but definitely brilliant.

  59. Are you and PF regularly wearing wedding rings?

    She does because she’s a girl. I don’t because I think it’s gay.

    After the wedding in August, I’ll wear a ring, likely a $60 piece of tungsten. (Seriously.)

    What is PF’s family view of your relationship?

    I already answered that here.

    How are you getting along with them?

    With the exception of one individual who PF has always had trouble with, I get along with her entire family great. I had a long sit-down talk with her mom about a year ago explaining everything and everything is good.

    Thats my most burning question that I struggle with in my own personal life. The Alpha male 2.0 lifestyle doesnt accept control and restrictions from women but also doesnt impose control or restrictions to them either. You have never elaborated on this…

    Yes I have. Many, many times, on this blog and in my books, and in great detail.

    Your women will have sex with other guys. For FB’s you couldnt care less but what about high end mltr’s and OLTR’s? Now I know that if you maintain your frame that is far less likely and far less frequently to occur but it will at some point with women you really care about. How do you cope with that emotionally and practically?

    Read this book and this book, and where I answer that question in great, step-by-step detail.

    Especially since women that are jealous will be far less subtle about it than you are and will likely use it to get an angry emotional response from you.

    Then I would laugh because that would be hilarious. It’s happened before (though not with PF). A girl would would fuck a guy and then throw it in my face to try to make me mad or jealous, then I would laugh and say, “Cool! You should bring him over for a threesome and we can fuck you at the same time! Do you want me to text him?”

    That kind of thing would make a beta or an Alpha 1.0 jealous (indeed, enraged), not a 2.0. 2.0’s are devoted to their Mission, and are not threatened by other men.

  60. Sorry I missed this question earlier:

    Considering NRE, I was wondering, if you get it with a woman, do you consider it a sign that she is a MLTR candidate

    Usually no. A woman isn’t a MLTR because you have NRE. A woman is a MLTR because she’s of higher quality and you like her. Both, not one or the other.

    or do you get NRE with FBs as well?

    Not really. NRE requires feelings, and you’re not going to have feelings for a FB. There are some rare times where an amazingly hot FB comes along who has sex with you exactly the way you like, and you may get a little excited about her, but that’s not NRE; that’s just a heightened form of lust. (And many younger men and beta males can’t tell the difference between those two things.)

  61. There are some rare times where an amazingly hot FB comes along who has sex with you exactly the way you like, and you may get a little excited about her, but that’s not NRE; that’s just a heightened form of lust. (And many younger men and beta males can’t tell the difference between those two things.)

    Oh shit, shit, shit. I have to write this down, preferably in many places. I’m happy I read this today, it should help. Oh well, one more reason to keep reading this blog.

  62. Not really. NRE requires feelings, and you’re not going to have feelings for a FB

    I remember a really old article you wrote, where you stated that you can love one woman and have raging NRE for another one. Does that only apply if both are MLTRs, or did you change your mind?

  63. I remember a really old article you wrote, where you stated that you can love one woman and have raging NRE for another one. Does that only apply if both are MLTRs, or did you change your mind?

    I don’t think I ever said that; that doesn’t sound like me.  Send me a link if you find where I said that though; I suppose it’s possible.

    What I have said is that love is not NRE and they are two different things. You can have multiple MLTR‘s where you love one and have some NRE type feelings for a new one, but if you really loved the first one, NRE with the second one would be unlikely. The exception to this rule is if you had the old MLTR for a really, really long time and the relationship started to get boring to you. (In which case, as a MLTR, you should probably end it or downgrade her to a FB.)

  64.  

    THAT BEING SAID: You can love one person and be massively attracted/infatuated/twitterpated for a second person at the same time.  That’s easy.  You can love one woman and have raging NRE for a second woman.  I’ve certainly done that (more than once), and I know many other guys (and gals!) who have experienced the same.  But again, NRE isn’t love.

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2011/07/07/what-about-love/

    You can have multiple MLTR’s where you love one and have some NRE type feelings for a new one, but if you really loved the first one, NRE with the second one would be unlikely.

    That’s another point where I was confused, since I was under the impression that as soon as you were in love with someone (ie. as an MLTR), you weren’t allowed/capable of having romatic feelings for someone else (all other women would be downgraded to FB level). Thanks for the clarification.

  65. Ah, got it.

    I was under the impression that as soon as you were in love with someone (ie. as an MLTR), you weren’t allowed/capable of having romatic feelings for someone else

    1. Allowed and capable are two different things. You’re allowed to do whatever you want in an MLTR (just not in an OLTR).

    2. Yeah, most men, I’d say 98%, don’t have the ability to be in love with multiple women at the same time (me included). But NRE isn’t love, so you could be in NRE with two people at once, and possibly (though unlikely) be in love with one MLTR and NRE with another MLTR at the same time. And yeah, it’s happened to me, but with MLTR‘s, never with an OLTR.

    (all other women would be downgraded to FB level)

    No. You can have multiple MLTR‘s and it’s technically allowed to love all of them if you’re capable of it (and most men will not be).

    Only in an OLTR are you forced to downgrade all other women to FB‘s, but I think you’re talking about MLTR‘s, not OLTR.

  66. It sounds like PF has a very detailed knowledge of everything that happens with your FB‘s. This seems surprising if you have so much alone time. Have you agreed to keep her always in the loop, or does she always grill you for information?

     

    Can you explain why you felt it necessary to sit down and announce the details of your sex life to the entire family? Seems like none of their business, and I can’t see any possible upside to telling them. Seems like a lot of potential fallout however.

  67. It sounds like PF has a very detailed knowledge of everything that happens with your FB’s.

    She has some general information about most of them, specific information about a few of them.

    Have you agreed to keep her always in the loop, or does she always grill you for information?

    Neither. I generally do not volunteer any information, nor does she ever “grill” me. She does ask questions sometimes, and I answer them when asked. Usually, she’ll ask one question or two, I will answer, and she’ll move on.

    A woman who “grilled” me would never have qualified for OLTR in the first place.

    Can you explain why you felt it necessary to sit down and announce the details of your sex life to the entire family?

    I did not announce any details to anyone, much less her “entire family.” Not sure why you would assume such a thing. I said I got along with her entire family, not that I announced details to them. I also said I had a sit down talk with her mother. Just her mother. And I didn’t give details, just stated that we were nonmonogamous and a few other basics. That’s it.

    Seems like none of their business, and I can’t see any possible upside to telling them.

    Her mom saw my blog and got concerned. That’s why I talked to her.

    Don’t forget that I’m a public figure and can’t exactly hide this stuff.  (Nor would I.)

    Seems like a lot of potential fallout however.

    It was over a year ago and there has been exactly zero fallout. PF and I have dinner with her parents on a semi-regular basis (they invite us over) and we all get along great.

    You guys make this a lot harder on yourselves if you assume that everyone who finds out will go apeshit and will hate you forever. The reality, in most cases, is that once people find out, they really don’t give a shit, particularly if you’re confident, kind, and honest with everyone.

  68. Thanks BD for walking us through what to you is very basic stuff

    the only bone of contention you might have in your living arrangement is that

    you are home alone all day with her little dog. If the dog is unmanageable that would be a problem .

    could you talk a little bit about finances,more specifically screening a potential live-in gal for financial stability employability and willingness to stay earning money.

    I have read that in expensive places like NYC ,SanFran, Hawaii many people start dating couple up quickly and then move into together to save expenses.

    that cannot be alpha 2.0 behavior

    i have heard of couples getting divorced but continue living in the same house because one or both cannot “Afford” to move out.  Not good

    btw

    Prince Harry -a beta- got some friendly advice to set up a prenup before marrying Meghan M

    he very firmly said no he did not need one and can make things work

    funny how the guys who could most use alpha male advice are the ones least likely to listen

  69. Prenuptial agreements are not valid lots of places (California and the UK being two examples).

    Harry looks bad taking a prenuptial out, AND it’s not enforceable. But his situation is different because he has huge expectations and tons of societal programming to deal with being in the monarchy. The UK would legit revolt if he became a Alpha 2.0. I don’t envy the man at all.

    Anything you come into marriage with that is your sole property you get to keep so long as you can document it and you never put her on the title.  Anything you acquire during marriage is community property and she gets half.

    Clearly, this is less of a problem if you are rich going in, but if you start out broke, get married,  build something of value, and she dumps your ass, she’s getting half.

    Even in places with well established prenuptial agreements, any attorney worth their salt is going to be able to go back at the courts and litigate it.  Prenups only really work if she wants them to work.  Good council isn’t cheap, and if she’s the vexed sort that is prone to litigious, buckle up.

    The foolproof solution is very simple – do not legally marry them!  You cannot be divorced if you do not legally marry them.

    Even this may not be enough depending on your states common law marriage laws.  We don’t recognize them in California but other places do and you need to be aware of your local laws.

  70. the only bone of contention you might have in your living arrangement is that you are home alone all day with her little dog. If the dog is unmanageable that would be a problem

    Not a problem. The dog stays in one of the rooms with the door shut all day. I don’t even see it until PF comes home. She’s 100% responsible for the animal. This is one of the parameters we discussed before she moved in.

    could you talk a little bit about finances,more specifically screening a potential live-in gal for financial stability employability and willingness to stay earning money

    I don’t believe in screening and that is not how I found PF. Read this.

    I have read that in expensive places like NYC ,SanFran, Hawaii many people start dating couple up quickly and then move into together to save expenses.

    that cannot be alpha 2.0 behavior

    It isn’t; quite the opposite.

    I’ve said many times on this blog that moving in with a woman you’re dating to save expenses is one of the dumbest things human beings do.

    Prince Harry -a beta- got some friendly advice to set up a prenup before marrying Meghan M

    he very firmly said no he did not need one and can make things work

    Typical. Most men say that. And most men get divorced. This is why I stopped feeling sorry for men a very long time ago.

    And as I’ve said, there is statistical evidence to suggest that women with money get prenups far more often than men with money get prenups. Once again, women know what’s up, and it’s men who get stupid about this.

    To be fair though to him though, a prenup is useless in the UK.

    Harry looks bad taking a prenuptial out, AND it’s not enforceable.

    Right.

    Also, Harry is wealthy beyond imagination, so if he gets divorced, he really doesn’t “feel” it like most other men would.

    I have a relative who is worth over $200 million. When he got divorced (no prenup), he just shrugged, wrote her a check for $50 million, and went on with his life. Financially, he didn’t feel a thing. The super rich follow a different set of rules than the rest of us, as I talked about when I talked about George Clooney getting married.

    The UK would legit revolt if he became a Alpha 2.0. I don’t envy the man at all.

    Now on that, Harry, if he had balls, could tell his family to fuck off, take a hunk of his money, move to Aruba, live his life on his own, start whatever businesses he wanted, and truly be an Alpha 2.0. If the people of the UK don’t like it, that’s their fucking problem. Harry is in charge of his own life and he could do this if he really wanted to. But he has no balls, so he won’t.

    I’ve said the same thing about the three Trump children. Any one of those people could have told daddy Trump that they wanted to live their own lives instead of living in his shadow forever and being his slave, and could have made their own way in life. But no, being a slave with golden handcuffs is too compelling to most people.

    Sad.

  71. You say you’re an odds player. Yet according to all the data you’ve amassed, you have basically a 100% chance PF will become emotionally attached to a FB and cheat on you. I’ve seen you claim several times that it almost never happens in open relationships that one partner becomes emotionally involved with an FB, I can see you about to repeat it here, but, what the hell are you talking about? You actually had to create a huge ass acronym, LSNFTE, just because this happens literally to _every_ woman you’ve ever been with openly.

    I know you have admitted that you would be deeply hurt if PF were to cheat on you like this, so I am wondering, why is it worth it to you to put yourself into this position, becoming so deeply emotionally involved with her, when you know that it’s going to end that way eventually?

     

  72. Could you attest anything in particular to your success with having such a long term FB as lunarayn?

    Is she in an open relationship with a guy or something like that?

    Personally I find that fb’s never stick around past about 4 or 5 months, which I really would like to figure out how to extend. I’m amazed that you report women doing this for years with you. Unless they are cheating on someone, then that makes sense but again they tend to get guilty and quit after a while of that too.

    Tried searching your database for FB specific articles but can’t find any.

  73. Jack, you don’t know hoe to explain your position because it’s emotional not rational. All your points are your feels and not facts.

    I already did explain my position. The problem is that some people believe that being against the mental health profession requires me to also be against a group of volunteers on an internet forum giving each other sincere advice.

    In other words, these people say that if I’m against therapy, I must also be against informal friendship in order to be consistent. That’s like saying I must be against personal sex if I’m against professional sex. That’s bullshit!

    When I said I don’t know how to explain it, I meant that if you sincerely can’t see the difference between a professional therapy session with a blue pill emotional prostitute who’s job is to filter whatever real connection he might establish with you through dehumanizing clinical paradigms and “professional distance” vs. real friendship, or an internet forum filled with volunteers giving you informal and real (genuine) advice, then I don’t know what to say to you.

    The difference between those two is profound. The latter is real and awesome. The former is a blue pill professional simulacra.

    There is also a difference between a life coach like BD who keeps it real, even if he sells you a product that you may or may not find helpful in your life vs. a “mental health professional” who dehumanizes people by severing the “realness” from his profession in favor of PC approved clinical models.

    Major difference people! Major!

     

  74. A lawyer is not your friend.

    Technically neither is a prostitute.

    Right, but a prostitute wrongly intrudes into the personal realm, despite not being your friend. Having sex with you should never be professional, because sex is inherently a personal act which only a friend (which includes an FB) or above should be doing with you. And yes, even a nameless one night stand counts as a friend, because the two of you are sharing a mutual personal connection, based on genuine reciprocal lust, during that time.

    A lawyer does not intrude into the personal. He thus doesn’t have to be your friend in order to do his job. In that sense, prostitution (including therapy) is a perversion, whereas being a lawyer, a CPA, etc… is not.

    I would never use a friend for professional services, nor would I hire one,

    So if you were friends with a doctor or a lawyer, you wouldn’t ask them for help if you needed medical help or legal advice?

    nor am I generally friends outside of work with people that I know socially.

    Um……ok.

    Why would I ever put that kind of pressure on a social relationship?  It’s selfish and needy to the extreme.  And it’s bound to fail you.

    Then why are you here if you feel that your presence here is “selfish and needy to the extreme” and that you are “burdening us?”

    It depends what you mean by “pressure.” If you’re in trouble, who do you turn to for help? Usually, your friends and family are the first people you call. Now if you’re in trouble very often and are a habitual loser, I agree that the people in your life will get sick of you because someone who is in a permanent state of crisis only has himself to blame. But I’m talking here about emergencies and rare situations where you need a friendly ear or a helping hand. That’s what friends and family are for, dude.

    I’m not talking about being a habitual or constant parasite. I’m talking about the struggles that we all face in life from time to time that we may need others (such as those who love us) to help pull us through.

    I’m more than happy to help a true friend who needs it. Aren’t you?

    And pertaining to self-improvement internet forums, your “burden” argument has even less merit. This forum operates exclusively on the pure volunteerism model. No one is burdening you with anything. You’re under no obligation to read or respond to a single thing.

    But, when I began on the PUA forums in 2005 and needed help, tons of friendly volunteers offered me lots and lots of advice and help. Some of it was good and some not, but the volunteer/friendship model does work, without “burdening” anyone with fictional “obligations.” That’s not what friendship is.

     

     

  75. LOL, It cracks me up the assumptions thrown out on here sometimes!

    Okay, then what emotional or rational purpose does a “wedding” serve? What are its underlying reasons for existing, if not the ones I stated?

    Who said “commitment” and vows had anything at all to do with spending the rest of our lives together?

    Then what are the contents of the vows? What is the difference between making those vows in the privacy of your bedroom vs. as a publicity stunt?

    And aren’t you already committed if you’re in a serious relationship? What exactly do you have after the wedding that you didn’t have before?

    Sooo much jaded cynicism.

    Otherwise known as reality.

    Let’s not confuse relationships here with your typical bullshit monogamous marriages

    Then what does a wedding add to an open relationship, exactly? If it’s not just a pointless feel good publicity stunt, then what is it?

     

  76. You say you’re an odds player. Yet according to all the data you’ve amassed, you have basically a 100% chance PF will become emotionally attached to a FB and cheat on you.

    Cheat on him? You mean, leave him temporarily until she gets bored with the beta and comes back! A temporary break in the relationship might be a good thing.

    You actually had to create a huge ass acronym, LSNFTE, just because this happens literally to _every_ woman you’ve ever been with openly.

    Yeah, but then she comes back. You neglected to quote that part.

    I know you have admitted that you would be deeply hurt if PF were to cheat on you like this, so I am wondering, why is it worth it to you to put yourself into this position, becoming so deeply emotionally involved with her, when you know that it’s going to end that way eventually?

    Because what’s the alternative? Go monogamous? Then the pain will be even greater when the woman cheats on you with a discreet fuck buddy or one night stand.

    Stick to casual fuck buddies only? That doesn’t satisfy the need for pair bonding (especially if you want to have children, like me).

    So BD’s plan (minus the marriage and therapy part) really is the least bad option.

     

     

  77. jack nimble / apollo creed – Please do not post under multiple names in the same thread. It makes things confusing. Have the courage to say what you want under one consistent name. You’re anonymous (unlike me) so I don’t think I’m asking for too much. I’ll answer your questions, but don’t do that again. Thanks in advance.

    Yet according to all the data you’ve amassed, you have basically a 100% chance PF will become emotionally attached to a FB and cheat on you.

    Where in the world are you getting this statistical data? Particularly when I’ve said 50% of women I have in a serious relationships never fuck another man even though I’m having sex with other women. Not sure how 50% = 100%.

    And PF can’t cheat on me; we’re in an open relationship. She can leave me, but she can’t cheat.

    I’ve seen you claim several times that it almost never happens in open relationships that one partner becomes emotionally involved with an FB, I can see you about to repeat it here, but, what the hell are you talking about? You actually had to create a huge ass acronym, LSNFTE, just because this happens literally to _every_ woman you’ve ever been with openly.

    I was referring to OLTR‘s when I said that. As I’ve said many times, MLTR‘s and FB‘s LSNFTE men because do not get boyfriend status. But OLTR‘s do.

    OLTR wives like PF get all kinds of stuff on top of that, including girlfriend status, wife status, a wedding, a wedding ring, co-habitation, some level of financial benefit, children (not PF, but other women in OLTR marriages) and so on. This is why OLTR‘s don’t LSNFTE a man unless the man is doing something very wrong.

    My last OLTRish relationship (HBM) never LSFNTE’d me, ever. The relationship ended, but not because she left me for another man. But yes, every other woman does, because every other woman was a FB or MLTR. I’ve only had two OLTR‘s in my entire life, as I described in detail in item number 1 here.

    Granted, that doesn’t mean my relationship can’t end. In my last article about this I said it has at least a 30% chance of ending within the next few years. But if it does, it won’t be because PF will leave me for another man. She’s getting all her Disney from me so she doesn’t need to. Instead, it will be most likely because I terminate the relationship because of drama or some other problem. (Which, by the way, was much of the reason why my last OLTR ended.)

    Could you attest anything in particular to your success with having such a long term FB as lunarayn?

    In her individual case, I help her financially sometimes; sugar daddy stuff. And before you say it, no, the vast majority of my FB‘s received zero money from me (which is the entire point). This sugar daddy stuff is new in my life as of the last 2-3 years or so.

    Is she in an open relationship with a guy or something like that?

    She is single at the moment but she has LSFNTE’d me at least two different times in the past when she gets temporarily boyfriends, just like everyone else. I’m sure she’ll do it again in the future.

    Personally I find that fb’s never stick around past about 4 or 5 months, which I really would like to figure out how to extend.

    I’ve had many that go about 4 or 5 months and then LSNFTE, yes. That’s normal. But I’ve had a few go several years. My longest consistent FB was seven years (far longer than Lunarayn), my longest non-consistent was eight years.

    I’ve had a lot go many years, but with many LSNFTE breaks in there. To me, it’s not about how long they last without any breaks, but how long they last with breaks. If I have FB‘s who last six, seven, eight years in my life, but with a few breaks in there as they do their LSNFTE‘s, who cares? Good enough for me. That’s why I have a portfolio of FB‘s instead of relying on just one or two.

    I’m amazed that you report women doing this for years with you. Unless they are cheating on someone, then that makes sense but again they tend to get guilty and quit after a while of that too.

    Yes, many of my FB‘s are/were cheating on someone. That’s extremely common. I’ve said before that the best FB‘s are the ones with boyfriends.

    Tried searching your database for FB specific articles but can’t find any.

    I have one coming up, but don’t expect anything earth-shatteringly new in there. If you’re doing literally everything this book recommends, you’re doing it correctly. If your results aren’t what you want them to be, you’re probably not doing one or more things that book recommends.

    And again, it’s about expectations. Don’t expect FB‘s to last a long time. I certainly don’t. That’s why I have so many. Now I don’t care how long they last.

  78. “So if you were friends with a doctor or a lawyer, you wouldn’t ask them for help if you needed medical help or legal advice?”

    Correct.  They are professionals at work, and private citizens away, and I treat them that way.

    BTW I have friends that are both attorneys and physicians.  Very good ones, from what I understand.  I have my own people.

  79. Then why are you here if you feel that your presence here is “selfish and needy to the extreme” and that you are “burdening us?”

    Because I don’t consider anonymous strangers on an Internet forum “friends”?

    You gotta watch out for friends.  They are afraid to hurt your feelings and shit.  Strangers, however, DGAF and will tell you the truth.

  80. Then what does a wedding add to an open relationship, exactly? If it’s not just a pointless feel good publicity stunt, then what is it?

    If it makes someone happy, then its not pointless is it? It would be a lot of fun, and it would make us happy because we would have a great time with all our friends and family there. It would add a great experience, memories, photos, etc to our current relationship.

    Like Joelsuf mentioned also, I know in my situation, HE would get more validation and enjoyment from the extra attention that I ever would. It is not something I really ever desire.

    Our vows would center around sharing how much the other means to us, and why. As well as the things that we DO promise to give to each other. I am not a verbally emotional woman, so such a thing would really mean a lot to him, I know. Not that we DON’T already share these things with each other now.

    Not trying to convince anyone that a wedding is something that everyone should do by any means. Its really an excuse for a big elaborate party, and we love parties. Seeing as there is nothing BAD that comes of it, and it adds to our happiness = WIN.

     

     

  81. If your looking for a therapist “Esther Perel” is great. Some similarities to your blog, just that she hasn’t openly admitted to the open lifestyle but stress mystery and desire which is diluted when you are constantly with the other half.

  82. You say you are an odds player, but according to your own data, the odds are overwhelming that PF will do the same thing as 100% of the other women you have dated: become emotionally attached to a FB  and leave you. Why is it that you deny that this is likely to occur, when it is so ridiculously common that you have even developed a large and awkward acronym (LSNFTE) to save you all the time it would take to constantly talk about how common it is?

  83. Well but you _do_ have cheating in your relationship model. You’ve stated before that becoming emotionally involved with a side lover would be considered cheating. I want to say I even recall you admitting somewhere that you would be very hurt if PF betrayed you in that way.

    I know you like to say there is no _greater_ chance of this happening in an OLTR, although I believe that is pretty unintuitive. But surely, it is at least as common in OLTR‘s as it is in “monogamous” relationships. If  you don’t think so, could you tell us why not, and perhaps offer your theory as to why?

    After all contrary to what you say, she is _not_ getting all her disney, a HUGE part of that disney is the whole “me and only me” part of it, and she is likely to continue to crave that and be tempted by any many she sees as equal value to you who is willing to offer it to her.

     

     

     

  84. You say you are an odds player, but according to your own data, the odds are overwhelming that PF will do the same thing as 100% of the other women you have dated: become emotionally attached to a FB  and leave you. Why is it that you deny that this is likely to occur, when it is so ridiculously common that you have even developed a large and awkward acronym (LSNFTE) to save you all the time it would take to constantly talk about how common it is?

    I already answered that in a comment above, and in detail. You obviously didn’t read it. Please do so.

    (Posting under multiple names, not reading my comments to you… you’re not doing well today.)

    Well but you _do_ have cheating in your relationship model.

    Incorrect. I do not.

    You’ve stated before that becoming emotionally involved with a side lover would be considered cheating.

    I have literally never said that.

    I have said it would be a violation of the OLTR rule set. I’ve never said it would be cheating. (Other people have said this on this blog, but not me.)

    I know you like to say there is no _greater_ chance of this happening in an OLTR, although I believe that is pretty unintuitive.

    No, I said there is less of a chance of it happening in an OLTR, not equal, for the reasons I stated in my above comment to you that you didn’t read.

    But surely, it is at least as common in OLTR’s as it is in “monogamous” relationships.

    Sure, I’ll agree with that. But how often do women leave men in monogamous relationships because they fall in love with another man? Sometimes, but not often. Usually they just leave because they’re bored, not because they fall in love with someone else.

    After all contrary to what you say, she is _not_ getting all her disney, a HUGE part of that disney is the whole “me and only me” part of it

    Sure, but she’s getting 90% of it. A FB or MLTR is getting 0%, thus the much higher frequency of LSNFTEs with those women.

    and she is likely to continue to crave that and be tempted by any many she sees as equal value to you who is willing to offer it to her.

    Haha! Sure, if another Alpha Male 2.0 comes along as a FB she fucks (assuming she actually fucks him) who is just as wealthy/high income as me and is around the same age as me and who looks equivalent or better than me and who is happy as me and who is as low drama as me and never tells her what to do like me and has a similar personality to me and is as driven and Mission oriented as me and gives orgasms as much as I do and offers her a marriage and a wedding and forever cohabitation and throws in verbally promised monogamy (which PF knows is usually bullshit, since she’s been cheated on a lot like most other women)… then yeah, she might go for that. Sure.

    Am I really worried about this as something with high odds of occurring? No. If you want to worry about it, go right ahead.

  85. Great article and great info in the comments. Congrats again on the amazing OLTR!

    I just had a high-end mltr actually VERBALLY explain to me that if she finds a guy who wants to be exclusive, she will leave. I just smiled and said “I know” and changed the subject, but this seems pretty odd. Has this happened to you? Does this mean there’s a higher chance of LSNFTE, or that it will happen sooner? She’s already done it once but came back after a few weeks. This one’s interesting…

  86. I am not a followers of yours but does this oltrmarriage thing contradicts all you said on your blog? You will have a hard time to convince yourself and your readers to the new spin and sell that to them (never shack up for instance).

  87. I just had a high-end mltr actually VERBALLY explain to me that if she finds a guy who wants to be exclusive, she will leave. I just smiled and said “I know” and changed the subject, but this seems pretty odd. Has this happened to you? Does this mean there’s a higher chance of LSNFTE, or that it will happen sooner? She’s already done it once but came back after a few weeks. This one’s interesting…

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2015/05/04/ignore-what-women-say-only-watch-what-they-do/

    I am not a followers of yours but does this oltrmarriage thing contradicts all you said on your blog?

    No, I’ve been publicly talking about wanting an OLTR marriage for at least six years, dating back to this post I made all the way back in 2012.

    I am not a followers of yours

    That’s pretty obvious, especially if you think I’ve been telling men not to shack up, when I’ve been discussing OLTR marriage for, again, at least six years on this blog.

    (Again I wonder, what possess certain people to take the time to make a comment on a blog when they clearly have no idea what they’re talking about? Very weird.)

  88. Oh good lord. Fine, you call it a “violation of terms”. What pointless semantics. It’s your version of cheating and you would end the relationship if it happened and you know it.

    Sure, I’ll agree with that. But how often do women leave men in monogamous relationships because they fall in love with another man? Sometimes, but not often. Usually they just leave because they’re bored, not because they fall in love with someone else.

    Is this true? I’d be very interested if there is any real data on this. My impression is that women very rarely leave a man without another man in their sights, and generally, they get things going with that guy first just to make absolutely sure they won’t skip a beat.

     

  89. I’ve been waiting literally for years for you to finally start posting on this topic, I know I’m asking a lot.

    In your open relationships book, you touch just a bit on the subject, and here you mention you’re getting an “office” to play with FB‘s etc. In the book you mention that a place like this is imperative also for nexting purposes. You say a normal man can’t execute a next with his wife by simply going off to a hotel even for an extended period, because she knows he is coming back. I don’t really see how having a place you rent by the month vs. a place you rent by the day is really significantly different for this purpose.

    Also can you elaborate on this about her “politely” refusing sex being totally fine? What if she “politely” refuses for a week, or two, or three? All fine? I am never sure how to distinguish a drama refusal for sex which deserves a next, vs. one which is not. In your books the line seems to be a strict “any refusal for any reason other than health reasons is drama and deserves a next” is that right?

    You say it’s up to us to figure out the specific ways a woman handles OLTR and “manage” those responses. Can you give us an example of how you do this with PF?

     

     

  90. I know I’m asking a lot.

    The problem isn’t that you’re asking a lot. Lots of guys ask me lots of questions and I’m happy to answer them. The problem is that you’ve misquoted me multiple times, posted duplicate attack comments while not reading that I had already answered you, posted until multple names in a single thread in order to troll me, said that I was creating “nonsense” and that I was “incapable of having a rational conversation” in another thread, and now you’re accusing me of semantics when I correctly pointed out that you were wrong about something I said (I never said you can cheat in an OLTR).

    Then you proceed to ask me a bunch of questions like none of that just happened. You’re more than welcome to have a temporary rough patch in your life and take it out on a blogger, or dislike me, but you can’t expect me to answer your questions if you not capable of having an adult discussion and maintain at least a modicum of politeness to the guy who is taking the time out of his busy schedule to answer your questions for free.

    I’ll answer your questions, but if you spew any more crap, even just one more time, then you’re free to continue to post here but I will start ignoring all of your comments in perpetuity. Remember I said that so you’re not surprised when it happens.

    I’d be very interested if there is any real data on this.

    None that I have seen.

    My impression is that women very rarely leave a man without another man in their sights

    Only with much younger girls (under age 23) and/or some super hot women. With everyone else, particularity women in marriages, no. It’s actually unusual for a woman in a mono  marriage to leave her husband because she’s got another guy ready to go.  It happens, but it’s not the norm. Think through the last 10 divorces you’ve seen and you’ll quickly see this is the case.

    You say a normal man can’t execute a next with his wife by simply going off to a hotel even for an extended period, because she knows he is coming back.

    Correct.

    I don’t really see how having a place you rent by the month vs. a place you rent by the day is really significantly different for this purpose.

    It is not significantly different, but it is different.

    I can’t stay at a hotel for as long as I want. Eventually that $150 or $200 a night is going to murder me financially and I’ll have to come back home pretty damn soon. It’s also not my hotel, so my stuff isn’t there, and I kinda need my stuff.

    But my office, ah, much different story. It’s already budgeted and paid for, it has a bed and a nearby shower at a fitness club that I can use whenever I want, it has all the business equipment I need and changes of clothing… I could stay there for two or three weeks if I wanted, possibly more.

    And she knows it. I don’t “have” to “come back tomorrow.” That’s the difference.

    Again, I will have much more to say about having a second location (office or apartment) in future posts and books.

    Also can you elaborate on this about her “politely” refusing sex being totally fine? What if she “politely” refuses for a week, or two, or three? All fine?

    All fine. She knows what that means… that I will just schedule more time with FB‘s.

    I am never sure how to distinguish a drama refusal for sex which deserves a next, vs. one which is not. In your books the line seems to be a strict “any refusal for any reason other than health reasons is drama and deserves a next” is that right?

    For women you don’t live with, yes. If a FB or MLTR says no to sex for non-medical reasons, instant soft next! A live-in OLTR is different. She has the “right” to say no to sex with me because I live with her 24/7 and no man (particularly a high sex one like me) can expect sex from a woman constantly, all the time, forever… and I can just go see FB‘s as often as I like to take up the slack.

    With a FB or MLTR, I’m only seeing her once a week, so hell yes I can expect sex 100% of the time we hang out.

    You say it’s up to us to figure out the specific ways a woman handles OLTR and “manage” those responses. Can you give us an example of how you do this with PF?

    On the rare times she says no to sex, I just smile and say “okay!” and pull away from her, drop the subject, and keep doing what we were doing before (talking, or watching a movie). She immediately starts to get nervous because she knows exactly what that means, and about 60% of the time, she initiates sex anyway about 10-20 minutes later.

    Now if you want me to keep talking to you, measure your next comments carefully and control your emotions. You’re on very thin ice.

  91. What does a breakup from a living together situation look like?

    does oltr and alpha male draw up guidelines before moving in together

    is the woman required to keep enough money for a moving van and several months rent in a bank account so she never has the excuse she cannot afford a breakup?

    does the guy keep a spread sheet that he reviews periodically to check if he has fallen into defacto monagmy or has stopped prioritizing his mission?

  92. What does a breakup from a living together situation look like?

    In an OLTR marriage, she just moves out, and that’s it. No finances are affected, and activity with FB‘s continue (though now you can have MLTR‘s too if you wish).

    does oltr and alpha male draw up guidelines before moving in together

    For the financial stuff, absolutely, and it’s legally enforceable (or you don’t move in with her). For everything else, you can, but I don’t since making a woman agree to long-term behaviors on paper is a very guy-logical concept that’s not going to work on a female.

    Instead, you have several very detailed talks about rules and guidelines regarding the relationship before  she moves in, then you have one or two after the move in to reinforce everything, so there’s no misunderstanding and everything is clear for both parties.

    And, as I said in my book, down the road she will likely change her mind on what she agreed to, because she’s a girl and that’s what girls do unfortunately. At that point, you’ll have a decision to make.

    is the woman required to keep enough money for a moving van and several months rent in a bank account so she never has the excuse she cannot afford a breakup?

    In my view, no, but she is required to have somewhere to move to that is nearby, like her family, or a very close friend who has some extra room in their home.

    does the guy keep a spread sheet that he reviews periodically to check if he has fallen into defacto monagmy

    I track all the sex I have on spreadsheets, so that’s one of the jobs it fulfills. If I started sliding into de facto monogamy, shit, I would know literally within a week or two. Though that’s not the reason I keep those spreadsheets; that’s just a bonus feature.

    Detailed tracking your woman life on spreadsheets or in a journal is hugely valuable on multiple levels. I’ve been doing it since 2008.

    or has stopped prioritizing his mission?

    For me, my Mission and goals are so tied to who I am, if I ever start drifting from my big goals or my Mission, I “feel” it almost immediately, so I don’t need a spreadsheet to tell me. But for many other guys, sure, a spreadsheet or journal would be very helpful in maintaining your Mission focus.

  93. Wellllll…. all of that was related to that one subject which, interestingly, you’ve done a total 180 on in your next article and acknowledged that everything I was saying was true. Frankly, I respect you greatly and I think I got upset because you were indeed being really emotional and incredibly irrational and couldn’t seem to read a sentence clearly, shattering my god-like image of you.

    What if it’s a high-end MLTR and you are on a long trip, say one or two weeks together, would you give her some slack on refusing sex at that point? Personally it seems to me that this is a situation where I would be _less_ inclined to ignore a refusal for sex, since it’s vacation and I’m paying so I feel I can expect to enjoy myself, but from what you’re saying I’m not sure where you would fall.

  94. @jackbenimble

    Mate, you had a god like image of BD and you’re accusing him of being irrational?

    I’m not sure why BD is tolerating you. Your comments on these threads scream desperation.

  95.  

    Does it make financial sense to have a primary residence + an office vs your previous state where you had your office at home ?

    Of course the concern is relative , if you make > 200K or so / year it doesn’t matter … but for the common guy making 75K/ year ,  having 2 form or residence may not be an option.

    One possible viable option is to co-share a bachelor pad with a few friends in the same situation, which drastically reduce the cost of having another flat. You just use to bring FB over or get some time away from the primary…which to me seems to be the main 2 reasons why you’re getting an office.

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