I have analyzed the friend zone in great detail several times on this blog. I showed you actually how abusive friend zone is and what women really think about it here. I also showed you how pathetic beta males actually defend and encourage friend zone here.

Friend zone is a condition that is almost standard for most beta males. If you are a beta or ex-beta, you’ve probably experienced friend zone before, perhaps even more than once. As I’ve said many times, friend zone is an abusive condition that no man should ever tolerate, ever, for any reason. All it does for the man is create sexual angst, and since sexual angst is a negative emotion, it should not be something you put up with.

Hang out with attractive women you’re having sex with. That’s fine. Hang out with unattractive women you like as friends, but don’t want to have sex with. That’s fine too. But for fuck’s sake, don’t hang out with hot girls you want to have sex with and who don’t let you. That’s extreme beta male behavior, and it doesn’t belong in your life.

Today I’m going to discuss how to deal with friend zone, and how to possibly get yourself out of friend zone, despite the fact that once you’re in friend zone, it’s very unlikely you’ll ever leave it even if you do everything right. But I’ll address that as well.

The Definition of Friend Zone

Based on many past discussions I’ve had about this topic with men online, I know that a lot of men get very defensive, nitpicky, and even downright angry when discussing friend zone. Therefore, this is one of those times I need to be very specific about what I say and what I mean.

When I say “friend zone” I mean this: a condition where you want to have sex with a woman you personally spend time with, but she won’t let you. I’m not talking about anything else…

I’m not talking about having a platonic female friend you aren’t sexually attracted to in any way. Those are perfectly fine and are not friend zone. One of my closest, longest friendships I have is with an overweight old lady in her late 60’s. That’s not friend zone because I don’t want to have sex with her.

I’m not talking about having a platonic female friend you find attractive, but never actually hang out with in real life. I have a particular long-term female friend who I really do consider a good friend, and I consider her attractive, but we almost never hang out. We do so perhaps once every few years. That’s not friend zone because I’m not spending time with her. (I’m too busy spending time with women who I’m actually having sex with.) This also applies to women who live in distant cities or countries whom you rarely or never see.

I’m not talking about women you used to have sex with and aren’t anymore because of a LSNFTE. That’s not friend zone because you’ve actually had sex with her, and if you’re following my advice, you’re not contacting her at all for at least four months.

I’m not talking about women who happen to be attractive whom you’re forced to work with at your job. I understand that there are many possible scenarios where your job or your business requires you to work with women who you might find attractive. As long as you’re not spending time with her outside of the workplace, that doesn’t count as friend zone because you have to work with her for monetary reasons (and she knows it).

I will ignore any comments from men defending “friend zone” when it falls into any of the above categories, since those aren’t friend zone.

That’s what friend zone is not. Here’s what friend zone is:

When you regularly or semi-regularly hang out, in a social, non-work setting, with a woman you find really attractive, whom you know will not fuck you even if you try. This includes:

  • Hot female friends
  • Hot female friends of friends
  • Hot married women (Yes you guys, married women count. Lots of you guys try to defend friend zone by saying married women somehow don’t “count.” Bull fuck. Yes they do. If you’re regularly spending time with a super hot married woman you’d love to have sex with and can’t because she’s married, that’s fucking friend zone. You want to fuck her and you can’t. That’s friend zone. The reason why you can’t fuck her isn’t relevant; you want to and she won’t let you.)
  • Hot lesbians (what few there are in the real world)
  • Hot, physically developed teenagers (Again, yes, this counts. If you regularly hang out with her and you want to have sex with her and you can’t because she doesn’t like you or because she isn’t legal yet, that’s friend zone. Again, the reason why you can’t fuck her is completely irrelevant.)
  • Hot women you’d love to have sex with but “can’t” because you’re (stupidly) in a monogamous relationship with someone else at the moment (doesn’t matter if you’re in a monogamous relationship or not; it’s still friend zone.)

For those of you who are more woman experienced, you could argue that there are “levels” of friend zone for Alpha Males, PUA’s and other such gentlemen, and you’d be correct. Years ago, when I was still posting on forums, I described four levels of friend zone:

Zone 1: Real and true friend zone. She knows you, likes to hang out with you and get validation from you, but has never had sex with you, never wants to, and never will, no matter what you do. Zone 1 is always bad and should never be tolerated. Zone 1 also includes women you game who clearly are not sexually attracted to you at all, but still want to hang out platonicly “as friends.” 100% of these women should be hard nexted, period.

Zone 2: A woman you’ve had sex with once or twice, and then friend zones you afterwards for whatever reason. You might be able to have sex with her again down the road at some point, maybe, maybe not. It’s a total crap shoot. (You need to go no-contact with her for at least four months, as per my usual system.)

Zone 3: This is a woman who still wants to spend platonic time with you after a LSFNTE. This technically isn’t friend zone, but it can easily turn into real, Zone 1 friend zone if you aren’t on your game and/or don’t control yourself. This is a woman you’ve had sex with many times who nexts you or LSNFTE’s you, and uses the “lets just be friends” speech to do it. Now that she’s mad at you, bored with you, or has found a new boyfriend, you’re out of her sex life for a while. She still wants to hang out with you to get emotional and social validation, but she will not have sex with you, at least not right now. You can certainly fuck her again once she gets bored or tired of her current guy, assuming you get the hell out of her life and don’t contact her at all for at least four months.

Zone 4: Zone 4 is somewhat rare. This isn’t friend zone at all, but the woman is trying to pretend it is. This is when a woman you’re gaming and haven’t had sex with yet, but who is clearly sexually attracted to you, uses the “let’s just be friends” excuse simply as a temporary ASD excuse or shit test. With proper game and logistics, you can bust through that and have sex with her anyway (since it wasn’t ever friend zone to begin with).

Zones 2, 3, and 4 are not what I’m discussing today. Those are more an issue of dating technique or relationship management. Today I’m only talking about real friend zone, Zone 1.

How to Maybe Get Out of Friend Zone

Before I tell you a technique that might help you get out of friend zone, realize this: the odds of you ever getting out of friend zone, regardless of what you do, even if you do everything right, are very, very low. Once you’re in Zone 1 friend zone, you’re pretty much stuck there forever. Getting out of that classification in her mind is usually impossible.

That’s why it is sooooooo important to never allow yourself to get into friend zone in the first place. As I explained here, its better for a woman to be slightly mad at you while having sex with you than really like and approve of you while never having sex with you.

Guys in friend zone try to get liked, not laid. That’s not a good idea if you’re sexually attracted to her. I’ve had sex with numerous women, many of whom were very frustrated with me that I would not conform to their desires… but they were having sex with me, so I didn’t care. This is while the friend zone guy is doing everything his platonic female friend wants, constantly getting a lot of attention and compliments from her, but never having sex with her.

Which guy would you rather be? Food for thought.

So I’m about to tell you how to maybe get out of friend zone, but realize the odds of it working are low. You shouldn’t have ever allowed yourself to get into friend zone in the first place.

The technique is very simple: completely vanish out of her life for an entire year. That’s right. Vanish. Ghost. Stop spending time with her, go completely radio silent, and ignore all contact from her. Ignore her texts, social media messages, etc. Ignore everything from her, for an entire year.

During that year, Alpha up. Go out and get laid. Work on your dating / seduction skills. Lose weight and/or gain some muscle. Dress better. Work on your confidence and outcome independence. Have sex with other attractive women. Do all the stuff my books show you how to do.

You can still keep a presence on social media if you like, and you can even be friend/followers with her on said media, but only have stuff on there that makes you look like a cool, desirable Alpha Male. Or have nothing. Either is fine.

Then, after a year (yes, an entire 12 months), try to make sure she doesn’t have a new boyfriend in her life, then hit her up out of the blue as a new man, and go hang out with her, ideally just the two of you together. Don’t frame it as a date, just as a you and her “catching up.” Then once you meet up with her, treat it like a first date exactly as I describe in Get To Sex Fast. You can even sexually escalate on this first “date,” or go for a second “date” and sexually escalate then, but you must sexually escalate by “date” number two.

Odds of success of this working? Low. I’d put it at around 15% or so. But 15% is a hell of a lot better than 1% or 0%, which is what you’ve got now acting like a platonic beta male orbiter with her.

And again, if you’re in friend zone with anyone, or have been lately, make a pact with yourself that you’ll never allow yourself to do that ever again. You’ll be a much happier man.

117 Comments on “How To Escape Friend Zone

  1. Funny enough as you become more Alpha 2.0, you will naturally stop hanging out with girls that are platonic.  You’ll be too busy hanging out with girls you are actually fucking and your other goals to even think about spending time with these women.  I’ve noticed this in my own life.  I used to do occasional happy hours and what not with some of these women but I completely stopped since it seems like such a waste of time to me now.  Time is the most precious commodity so spend it wisely gents!

    The natural mental shift you will notice when you break from old beta habits will bring you much more happiness overall and make it easier to blow off women that aren’t worth your time.

    Great post BD!

  2. BD, I have a zone 3 question for you…

    I live in a small city in a small province – population about 400k in my immediate area.

    It is VERY common to run into people you know here.  That includes ex-s, and goes double if you want to continue doing activities that you once enjoyed together.

    I have no intention of deliberately avoiding a woman who has LSNed me – if I want to go to a dance or a group hike, I’m going to go anyway – even if I see she has signed up as well.

    But I do want to keep the option of her returning open, and to stay out of friend zone. So, my question is this…

    What is the best way to behave when – inevitably – I run into an ex…particularly at social events?

     

    I think the best approach is to be friendly, but distant. A polite hello, limited small talk, then disengage. Don’t avoid her, but don’t seek her out either. Treat her like a casual acquaintance, not a close friend.

     

    But that’s just my best guess – what do you suggest?

  3. You tend to be very binary here : either she’s repulsive and you can befriend her, or she’s hot and you can’t. How about the middle ground women (the vast majority of them), i.e those you would happily have sex with, yet don’t think 24/7 “oh my god she’s so hot I wanna fuck her right now”?

    Is it OK to befriend them? Because I have several platonic friends like that, women that I do not consider smokin’ hot but would happily fuck nonetheless.

    Another question: female friends have their own female friends, and even if your friend does not want to fuck you, her friends might like it, so wouldn’t it be worth it?

  4. Another question: female friends have their own female friends, and even if your friend does not want to fuck you, her friends might like it, so wouldn’t it be worth it?

    IIRC, BD himself has made that exception somewhere, but only if she’s actively hooking you up with said friends or is otherwise an active wingwoman. Without that, it’s negative social proof to be often seen in her company but be known not to fuck her.

  5. Hey Bd,

    One girl who I think I might be In the friend zone with is a girl I met from social circle. Our interactions were ok. I was mostly an asshole to her and I flirted with her heavy way back in January 2017.

    I went incognito on her for about four months before meeting her again. We went on a date I turned her on sexually but I never pulled her.

    A few months passed by again and I dated her again this time trying to escalate physically but she rebuffed me.

    Now I see her maybe once a month with my friends. I still flirt with her and act like an asshole. She still says things to try to get me to chase her however I don’t fall for it. I assume she wants me as her boyfriend and my friend tells me she fucks some guy out in Dallas yet she tells me the guy is her best friend.

    Is this friendzone? Or am I going ghost on her enough to stay away from it?

  6. Totally agree BD…As I’ve told women prior to hard nexting them, I’m not your safe friend, I’m not half-gay friend who is so, so understanding, and I’m not your ET (Emotional Tampoon) who you can dump all your personal and bf relationship waste on, then go fuck someone else or the same bf/guy/badboy you were weeping your heart about to me. And I’m not most def not your “well I got nothing better to do, I could use a nice night out, and I’ll just tease him but won’t fuck him” date on Weekends.

    We can’t fuck, kool, move the fuck on cause you got me confused with someone else.

    A simple example in my social life; One of my passions is dancing (Salsa/Hustle) and when I dance, it’s strictly dancing and don’t run game. But, once a gal starts flirting with me I don’t fuck around, she’s open season, she crossed the social dance line, and I run my game. She’s wants to play we’ll play but she breaks out the “F” word, I dump them, and that’s the last dance they’ll have with me for awhile.

    Fuck Friends Zone: That’s for weakass MFers….

    Chavel

  7. Funny enough as you become more Alpha 2.0, you will naturally stop hanging out with girls that are platonic.  You’ll be too busy hanging out with girls you are actually fucking and your other goals to even think about spending time with these women.  I’ve noticed this in my own life.  I used to do occasional happy hours and what not with some of these women but I completely stopped since it seems like such a waste of time to me now.

    Exactly, and well said.

    I live in a small city in a small province – population about 400k in my immediate area.

    Then, as I’ve said a thousand times, right off the bat you have a serious problem and nothing I tell you will work well until you move. (And que all the usual excuses about why you “can’t” move…)

    What is the best way to behave when – inevitably – I run into an ex…particularly at social events?

    I think the best approach is to be friendly, but distant.

    That’s correct. If she approaches you, say hi, how’s it going, get her answer, then gently end the conversation and go talk to someone else.

    …and realize the odds of her ever returning have just dropped by about 30% because you keep seeing her in these social circles.

    You tend to be very binary here

    Correct. You either want to fuck her or you don’t.

    either she’s repulsive and you can befriend her, or she’s hot and you can’t.

    Incorrect. Ether you don’t want to fuck her because she’s not physically attractive enough for you so you can befriend her, or she’s attractive to you physically and you can’t. Binary.

    How about the middle ground women (the vast majority of them), i.e those you would happily have sex with, yet don’t think 24/7 “oh my god she’s so hot I wanna fuck her right now”? Is it OK to befriend them?

    No, not if you want to be long-term happy. If you don’t care about long-term happiness (and many men don’t), then go right ahead and do whatever you want.

    Because I have several platonic friends like that, women that I do not consider smokin’ hot but would happily fuck nonetheless.

    And you’re in friend zone several times over. Congratulations.

    Does that make you feel good? Seriously and honestly, does that make you feel good regularly hanging out with these cute girls you’d happily fuck but can’t because they won’t let you while you’re giving them all the free validation they want from you? Does it feel good? Fulfilling? Masculine? Alpha?

    You know the answer.

    female friends have their own female friends, and even if your friend does not want to fuck you, her friends might like it, so wouldn’t it be worth it?

    What Anon said. If you have a platonic woman who is actively and regularly helping you put your penis inside other hot women, then it’s acceptable. Otherwise no.

    One girl who I think I might be In the friend zone with is a girl I met from social circle.

    Fake Blackdragon already gave you my answer.

  8. How about friendzoning women who I am not attracted to but they obviously want to have sex with me?

    I have been toying with this idea theorically but I don’t know precisely how to pull that off. For instance I would like them to run some errands for me (I never pulled that off). And have them as wing women when I go out. I pulled that one off once with a woman and it worked really great. I told her flat out on the first date that I like her as a friend but not physically attracted to her. And then somehow managed to get her on board with the idea to go night game together and help heach others : her to find a guy and me to find a woman. She actually helped by pointing out which women where looking at me in my back in a way that showed attraction. So I was able to “snipe” and banged a girl that I liked that same night.

  9. BD, my compliments on the FZ piece. So relevant and got me thinking of a situation a while back where I followed your advice and likely saved myself a lot of headache and wasted time. As a former beta, I would have eagerly accepted this zone 1 FZ in the past.

    I was at a godawful boring work conference, the kind that makes you want to slit your wrists just to end the anguish. In walks a smoking hot blond in a tight fitted dress who proceeds to sit next to me. Long blond hair, big fake tits framed in a low cut dress, ice blue eyes, gorgeous legs in a short dress and heels. Fantastic. Later I discovered she was 32. Fuck. Such a shitty age

    As a man who had learned some game, I immediately chatted her up, keeping it light, being funny and established a rock solid frame. She was cool, fun and totally into me. I decided to escalate by suggesting we go to a bar across the street, rather than listening to the speaker drone on. She happily accepted. We chatted, had a couple drinks.  I sexually escalted with light touching and she responded by flirting. All in all, it was about as perfect a text book interaction as one could have. There was loads of chemistry and all signs pointed to go.

    Remembering my BD lessons, I brought it to a conclusion after an hour and at goodbye, did not go for a kiss. I gave her a hug which she allowed to linger, holding on to me in hopes of a kiss, which I didn’t provide. Again, text book BD. I was golden, or so I thought.

    She had given me her card earlier and I assumed, wrongly, it had her cell on it. I didn’t look and it didn’t. I should have directly asked for her number but assuming I already had it, simply departed. Forward to the next day, I shoot her an email. She responds. I ask for her cell, she sends it. In the meantime, she has requested to connect via LinkedIn, a perhaps red flag.

    Again, sticking to successful game, I keep the texting light, fun and short, quickly ask for a date. She responds sure, AS FRIENDS. Friend Zone 1, ouch.  Everything about this girl’s behavior indicated she was totally into me and wanting to date, open to sex. Everything. But alas, instant FZ1.  I politely declined and disappeared.

    Other than asking for the digits, which I thought I had, I can’t think of a mistake I made or any indication she wasn’t game. In the end though, she likely had another guy she was fucking and looking for a backup who was willing to orbit while providing attention. Or, perhaps she was collecting business contacts. I would guess the former. Either way, she wasn’t about to fuck me. My old beta self would have taken her out, spent money and wasted time in hoping to someday get laid. My alpha self hard nexted and moved on. I didn’t waste a further penny (after $15 in initial drinks) and no further wasted time. Thanks, BD!

  10. During that year, Alpha up. Go out and get laid. Work on your dating / seduction skills. Lose weight and/or gain some muscle. Dress better. Work on your confidence and outcome independence. Have sex with other attractive women. Do all the stuff my books show you how to do.

    Why would you care at that point about her. I would probably forget that she existed by then. I would only respond if she contacted me and I would go directly to date number 2 scenario with that girl.

     

    Getting out of friend zone is super easy: make a move on her and if she doesnt like it say its this or nothing. Either way youre out of friend zone 😀 Guys just need to man up and admit they have the choice and that she isnt a unicorn and that they can spend time with someone else instead.

     

    Will you also make article(s) about zones 2-4? Those are the only realistic ones for me. Zone 1 never happens to me anymore because the girls figure out very fast what I am like and what I am after and either go for it or run away. If they ask me about it I am very open and direct to the point that I say I am busy and can get others relatively easily so Id rather spend my time with those women. After that they usually leave me alone.

    I live in a small city in a small province – population about 400k in my immediate area.

    It is VERY common to run into people you know here.  That includes ex-s, and goes double if you want to continue doing activities that you once enjoyed together.

    I live in a smaller town and funny thing is sometimes I keep running into same people but some people I never ever see again. Still if I do see them its when passing by etc, very easy to pretend you didnt notice them. Only exception would be for example if I dated a waitress at my favourite cafe: well theres lots of other nice cafes so I just go to other ones for a while.

    Incorrect. Ether you don’t want to fuck her because she’s not physically attractive enough for you so you can befriend her, or she’s attractive to you physically and you can’t. Binary.

    I recall an earlier post where you said a third option: that shes attractive to you but she brings you other hot girls consistently. I agree in that scenario I would also happily say yes to that friend without benefits but I am not sure how realistic it is. I never met such a woman yet. There were some in the past who said they would do that even on their own but they wouldn’t when it came down to it (I suspect most of them were attracted to me and keeping me as a back up so they didn’t want to do that…).

    How about the middle ground women (the vast majority of them), i.e those you would happily have sex with, yet don’t think 24/7 “oh my god she’s so hot I wanna fuck her right now”? Is it OK to befriend them?

    You clearly have too much free time. If you are busy like some of us because of work, women, hobbies etc then you just dont have time for women who dont want to date you regardless of how attractive or not they are. Having said that I do tend to have one woman at a time who I use as a drinking buddy and we discuss our dates and the way we feel about them, but I have my own reasons for it that are too complex to explain as to why this has to be a woman but most men can probably replace this with a man who fills this role.

    Fuck Friends Zone: That’s for weakass MFers….

    ??? you mean you only do a full relationship or nothing?

    Now I see her maybe once a month with my friends. I still flirt with her and act like an asshole. She still says things to try to get me to chase her however I don’t fall for it. I assume she wants me as her boyfriend and my friend tells me she fucks some guy out in Dallas yet she tells me the guy is her best friend.

    Why do you meet her together with friends? thats a big no no, thats only for high level long term dating girls

    A few months passed by again and I dated her again this time trying to escalate physically but she rebuffed me.

    As most of us here can tell you from past experience if you dont get where you want to get by date 2 or 3 its unlikely to happen. That is why, for example, BD says he dumps them at that point.

    Another question: female friends have their own female friends, and even if your friend does not want to fuck you, her friends might like it, so wouldn’t it be worth it?

    Depends what you mean befriend them?
    -You have a lunch/coffee once in a while and in between she sends lots of girls your way that she tells great things about you and shows them your pics and then they come to 1-1 dates with you all excited: hell yes. -You are not really friends but she invites you to lots of parties where you can meet lots of new people for whatever purpose: yes if you like/need that, but I would avoid meeting up with her outside of those parties.
    -You act and hang out like normal friends and introducing you to other girls means that sometimes her friends are there and you are free to hit on them but she did not make any effort in advance to set up things for you or screen them: hell no.

  11. How about friendzoning women who I am not attracted to but they obviously want to have sex with me?

    I had this a few times: That I liked spending time with her but wasn’t into anything physical. Best is to come clean about what you want or dont want immediately after date one. My experience is they usually accept whatever I suggest but then dont meet me again. You see women also dont like to be friendzoned but unlike most men are better at saying no to it. The only women who acted like they really wanted to be just friends with me stopped talking to me / meeting me when they got a boyfriend. Makes me think they had other intentions the whole time, which only reinforces the point that the whole idea of being friends with a woman without benefits its just nonsense.

    Again, sticking to successful game, I keep the texting light, fun and short, quickly ask for a date. She responds sure, AS FRIENDS. Friend Zone 1, ouch.  Everything about this girl’s behavior indicated she was totally into me and wanting to date, open to sex. Everything. But alas, instant FZ1.  I politely declined and disappeared.

    Some time ago I asked a girl out in a shop who was often chatty with me she agreed and I gave her my number. She didnt contact me for a week and then said we can have that drink but she isnt looking for anything else. So I said that I am very busy so I only meet those who are looking for something else but she can contact me if she reconsiders. But in your case I would ask if she means friends with benefits saying that you dont do friends without benefits (I said that a couple of times, made me feel good to say it).

  12. How about friendzoning women who I am not attracted to but they obviously want to have sex with me?

    That’s not friendzone. That’s a pivot.

    BD talked about HER friendzoning YOU.

    You can friendzone how many girls you like…I just don’t see the point, as I think it’s boring and attention seeking. Also going out solo is always better to hone your skills.

    About the chores, if it’s inside or close to your house, having a payed maid is way better than hosting a probing chick who have second interests in you and could blow up your privacy anytime she likes, don’t you think?.

  13. This part of BD’s doctrine is one I will never understand. It’s only abusive if the only reason you’re hanging out with her is that you want to fuck her.

    What if:

    1 – you’re fucking, or planning to fuck, other girls

    2 – you genuinely enjoy the time spent with her, not just because she is hot but because you get along particularly well as friends, and/or she has other ways to enrich your life.

    For example BD said: “If you have a platonic woman who is actively and regularly helping you put your penis inside other hot women, then it’s acceptable”

    So you recognize one case in which it’s acceptable. Why not expand this to “a platonic woman who does something for you improving your life in general?”

    If you are fucking or planning to fuck other girls so you have the sex part covered in your life, and you also have a hot platonic friend who helps you or improves your life in ways other than sex, what’s wrong with it?

    (I also don’t understand the part where you are emasculating yourself if you have a platonic friend because you are giving her “validation”. What does “validation” mean, that I tell her she is beautiful? That is certainly not the case).

    “Without that, it’s negative social proof to be often seen in her company but be known not to fuck her.”

    Is it really? That goes against my intuition.

  14. The technique is very simple: completely vanish out of her life for an entire year. That’s right. Vanish. Ghost. Stop spending time with her, go completely radio silent, and ignore all contact from her. Ignore her texts, social media messages, etc. Ignore everything from her, for an entire year.

    I was going to tell how I got out of the friend-zone with my first ex when I was 18, but this was exactly what happened, she moved to another city for a year. And, the first time we met (before her moving out) we had a drunk kiss… after having kissed her hot friend… So there was always some sexual tension.

    What about having sex with one of her friends? woudn’t that help? If one of her friends pre-select you I think it might help.

    And what about girls that you would fuck if they want but is unlikey, but that you plan to use them as pivot to meet her friends or other girls? (social circle game?)

    I would add another friend-zone case: A long distance relationship in which you met the girl online and never in person. I have a friend that makes me cringe hard whenever he talks about his loving girlfriend that he has never met.

  15. I don’t know.  I see more issues with women not wanting to be friends either because they have so little self control or their boyfriends won’t let them.  “You’re too dangerous…”..  “I couldn’t be alone or even in public with you”… “You’re a player”  bla bla bla…

  16. I love having female friends (we talk about the girls I fuck) but trying to get out of friend zone is beta.  Why are you emotionally tied one way or the other to this unicorn?  Just go fuck someone else.  Live is too short.

  17. As “someone” said in the previous reply, if you are fucking constantly other girls, and even hotter that her, then why not to have female-friends regardless of their atractiveness. An Alpha Male, at least in these modern times, (2.0?) is not the type that just hunts alone for pussy and/or has a harem. An Alpha Male also has contacts, his network is expanded and that also include women and hot women!

    The Outcome Independence also goes that way. That you have so many options for pussy that you could be a friend of a hot girl, that you would fuck her, or at least try to but you don’t because…… simply you don’t want to. Also you really like her as a friend, funny to spend time, helpful in whatever situation, she introduce you to other girls, or contacts, maybe help you to expand your network, etc. Let’s not even talk about pre-selection. Why highlight the obvious.

    BTW that’s my case right now. And I think you could benefit a lot with having 1 or 2 friends in this situation (more is wasting time). Is she hot to me? Yes, she is. Would I like to fuck her? Well, if I have no pussy at time, yes of course. One, as a man, fucks what is attractive for oneself. If she says to me “I like you as a friend” well chic, no problem, I have a lot of pussy to get at time with minimal effort and that is happy to jump on my cock (and I really enjoy fucking them) so yeah, let’s be friends. So better put very valuable things on the table to consider you as a friend, just like I do with my buddies.

  18. Here is a pro-tip on seduction: when you game a girl and she gives you a definitive “no” on sex (making it a definitive “no” in itself will up your game), then you should immediately friend-zone *her*. In other words, stop seeing her as sexually attractive and treat her as any other dude friend. It has to be like she hit a switch. You have to carry out this process quickly, or you lose the impact of the “about-face”.

    She may well be pissed or confused and try to draw you back in. If and when she starts chasing you, resume game. Reward all good behavior that moves you in the direction of sex, nothing else qualifies. All or nothing. Rinse and repeat and all with a smile. I’ve had to cycle several women like this in my social circle (with little effort expended), with about a third converting to sex. Make sure you do all this with no sense of butt-hurt over her initial rejection…my game is “service with a (self-satisfied) smile”.

    Of course such women are not your primary source of prospects, just a side gig, as part of social circle.

  19. An Alpha Male also has contacts, his network is expanded and that also include women and hot women!

    These are not friends but would fall more into the colleague category. You have to make a distinction between being real friends with a woman without anything physical and having a working relationship.

    Here is a pro-tip on seduction: when you game a girl and she gives you a definitive “no” on sex (making it a definitive “no” in itself will up your game), then you should immediately friend-zone *her*. In other words, stop seeing her as sexually attractive and treat her as any other dude friend. It has to be like she hit a switch. You have to carry out this process quickly, or you lose the impact of the “about-face”.

    Sounds like a fun idea. Reminds me of one ex who wanted to be my friend and not the friend with benefits kind. She even wanted me to treat her the way I treat my guy friends. It made me laugh; of course, I know she would hate that – she wants to talk about feelings and not about investments, seeing women as a commodity, or video games. Of course I know shes into me but shes still mad that I dated another girl when I was with her (although she knew about it at the time and didn’t leave..). I cut the contact now to let her chill a bit. Later we will see. I am not even sure I want her again.

  20. How about friendzoning women who I am not attracted to but they obviously want to have sex with me?

    That is not friend zone. Obviously.

    Why would you care at that point about her. I would probably forget that she existed by then.

    Ah… someone has uncovered a hidden meaning in my article…

    Will you also make article(s) about zones 2-4?

    I already have. Several of them. Written books about them too.

    It’s only abusive if the only reason you’re hanging out with her is that you want to fuck her.

    Incorrect. While you’re hanging out with her for your other reasons, you’re still staring at her boobs, ass, eyes, whatever and thinking about how nice it would be to have sex with her, while you can’t, because she won’t let you.

    you’re fucking, or planning to fuck, other girls

    There is a huge difference between “fucking” and “planning to fuck.” As I said above, if this woman is actively and regularly helping you actually put your penis inside other girls, then it’s not friend zone and you should proceed. At that point she’s a pivot or a wingman, not a friend zone.

    But if it’s just you hoping or fantasizing that maybe that might happen at some point with her friends, then yes it’s friend zone and you’re a beta.

    you genuinely enjoy the time spent with her, not just because she is hot but because you get along particularly well as friends, and/or she has other ways to enrich your life

    Not only friend zone, but classic friend zone.

    For example BD said: “If you have a platonic woman who is actively and regularly helping you put your penis inside other hot women, then it’s acceptable”

    So you recognize one case in which it’s acceptable. Why not expand this to “a platonic woman who does something for you improving your life in general?”

    1. Because that “something else” doesn’t satisfy your sexual angst or sexual desires.

    2. Because when you’re hanging out with a woman and she knows you’re actually fucking all of her hot friends, your frame isn’t beta, nor is your social or emotional position with her.

    If you are fucking or planning to fuck other girls so you have the sex part covered in your life, and you also have a hot platonic friend who helps you or improves your life in ways other than sex, what’s wrong with it?

    Again, fucking and planning to fuck are two completely different things, and you’re mashing them together as if they’re the same. While you’re sitting around with your friend zone girl hoping to fuck one of her friends, I actually am.

    I also don’t understand the part where you are emasculating yourself if you have a platonic friend because you are giving her “validation”.

    That’s because, like other men who defend friend zone, you currently have a close female friend (or friends) whom you think are hot and whom you think I’m attacking because of this advice. I am not. I’m simply stating what you have: friend zone, which yes, is emasculating and is abusive.

    If you don’t mind being emasculated and/or feeling sexual angst on a regular basis, then feel free to do whatever you want. I’ll be over here being happy.

    What does “validation” mean, that I tell her she is beautiful? That is certainly not the case

    No, validation is when you sit there like the beta you are and listen to her complain about all the Alphas she’s fucking while you nod your head and be good little best guy friend orbiter, giving her all the emotional validation she craves while you go home with blue balls and masturbate while thinking about her.

    Don’t you have better ways to spend your time?

  21. My soloution: any chick who I really wanna date, fuck or whatever I’m just upfront with from the start of meeting them.

    If they say Yes, than go from there.

    If they say No. Walk the fuck out and be gone. If they hit you up, they know wasup só handle it for there.

    No Female friends. Unless you really don’t wanna fuck em or at least bad enough.

    BOTTOM LINE: NO FREE ATTENTION

  22. The only way I would consider being friends with a girl acceptable is if:

    1. You are not doing her any favors, paying for activities that you do together, or listening to her problems.

    2. You are actually fucking other girls.

    3. You actually have time after dating/fucking other women plus work and hobbies.

    4. You actually enjoy her company, and aren’t ever thinking “omg this girl is annoying, but damn she’s hot.”

    5. She gives you social connections that you don’t have access to without her.

    The odds of these all happening are extremely rare, and thus firmly within 2% rule so not worth thinking about. Briffault’s is always in effect. If she cannot benefit from the interaction, chances are she will not be associated with you. But this doesn’t stop people from trying to deny reality, and find exception to the rule. Hank Moody over at RVF started a threat recently where he advocates being friends with women.

    https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-66614.html?highlight=friend+zone

    If you don’t mind being emasculated and/or feeling sexual angst on a regular basis, then feel free to do whatever you want. I’ll be over here being happy.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if some men get “high” off being around women they are not fucking instead of feeling angst. There’s certainly some freaks out there.

  23. Now this is interesting. BD (and most other posters) basically say that a somewhat attractive girl (not necessarily a hot one) is only “useful” if you can have sex with her. You seem to imply that a fulfilling friendship can only happen with males or ugly women.

    I have a female friend I like to watch geek movies with: my other (male or ugly women) friends don’t enjoy them, so I must either go alone (and that doesn’t feel good or alpha in any way) or go with her. Well, I hate going to the cinema alone, and I love talking about the movie afterwards. Never tried to seduce her, she’s not attractive enough, but if she did it, yeah, why not, I would certainly fuck her.

    Now, I agree that befriending hot women is painful, and now I avoid it no matter what, even if they would be objectively fun to hang out with.

  24. “Without that, it’s negative social proof to be often seen in her company but be known not to fuck her.”

    Is it really? That goes against my intuition.

    I was just paraphrasing BD. You made me actually look it up : ) http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2014/05/01/when-men-defend-friend-zone-platonic-female-friends/ (item 4)

    Remember that girls talk about everything among themselves. If they ask her about you and discover you’re in friend zone, you lose all the preselection.

    So you recognize one case in which it’s acceptable. Why not expand this to “a platonic woman who does something for you improving your life in general?”

    This might well be right. Thing is, for many friendzoned men, she isn’t even a friend to them, making it abuse zone or whatever!

    On the other hand, when discussing something with a male friend, I’m not getting aroused by his smiles, posture, clothing etc. Being aroused by a girl and having to contain is it unhealthy—what are you going to do, excuse yourself to the bathroom?

  25. Regarding the link Duke posted, this seems insightful:

    I think the problem is, we look at it like the woman “friend zones” the man.
    The truth of the matter is, the man friend zones himself.
    He chooses to drive this woman to the airport, watch her dog, and incessantly text back and forth with her in “hopes” that someday he’ll get a bang. Why a man would choose to make that kind of emotional and financial investment into a woman who he isn’t banging, I do not know.
    When I’m seeing a girl and I get the sense it’s not going anywhere, I simply dial back my attention and set boundaries. No, you’re not using my gym membership, no we’re not going out to dinner tonight, no you’re not coming to Mexico with me. It’s nothing personal, it’s just that there are other people who I’d like to keep closer to the center and focus my attention on.
    I don’t even say anything, I just go on with my life, except with other people. If she adds anything of value, I’m happy to hang out here and there. I’ll return text messages, help her update her resume, and even take some phone calls if I’m not doing anything important. Just don’t expect to be the center of my life.
    It’s not meant to be a “punishment” for not wanting to blow me, it’s simply that I only have so much attention to give, and I’d rather focus more on the women who I’m having a sexual relationship with. I hope someday you find a nice wealthy alpha male who wifes you up.

    https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-66614-post-1714438.html#pid1714438

    Being anonymous, I can freely admit the first sentences quoted did describe me at some point. Thankfully no longer!

  26. Remember that girls talk about everything among themselves. If they ask her about you and discover you’re in friend zone, you lose all the preselection.

    Excellent point!

    On the other hand, when discussing something with a male friend, I’m not getting aroused by his smiles, posture, clothing etc. Being aroused by a girl and having to contain is it unhealthy—what are you going to do, excuse yourself to the bathroom?

    These days I would start touching her and escalating. Thats perhaps why I dont have any friend zone problems. All the women either fuck me or run away. Either way good for me.

    I have a female friend I like to watch geek movies with: my other (male or ugly women) friends don’t enjoy them, so I must either go alone (and that doesn’t feel good or alpha in any way) or go with her. Well, I hate going to the cinema alone, and I love talking about the movie afterwards. Never tried to seduce her, she’s not attractive enough, but if she did it, yeah, why not, I would certainly fuck her.

    And…

    The only way I would consider being friends with a girl acceptable is if:

    1. You are not doing her any favors, paying for activities that you do together, or listening to her problems.

    2. You are actually fucking other girls.

    3. You actually have time after dating/fucking other women plus work and hobbies.

    4. You actually enjoy her company, and aren’t ever thinking “omg this girl is annoying, but damn she’s hot.”

    5. She gives you social connections that you don’t have access to without her.

    I actually had variation of those in the past. I was not really into those women even though I acknowledged they were good looking for me it was fine because there was always some other woman around that was clearly more interesting. All those so called friends stopped talking to me and or hanging out with me. Why? How? No, I did not make a move on them. They found a boyfriend and suddenly they stopped acting like a friend with me. If they were real friends as in what my understanding of a friend was this wouldnt happen, especially since there was never anything remotely sexual. My only explanation was that this was not the case for her and that these women wanted something more than a friend from me and stopped talking to me when they got it somewhere else. Yeah what a great friend. Maybe your experiences are different but the more women I meet the less I think women can be suitable as a friend.

    Having said that if you like the woman you are sleeping with to also be like a friend then women are great for this. I had some really great time with some women I was banging who were great friends to me during that time and the friends part worked really well. Obviously it stopped being good friends when we stopped sleeping together.

    My bottom line is: yes to being friends with women, so long as its with benefits (I leave that to you to define what these are, but I am convinced it has to be at least somewhat sexual).

  27. Here’s a great test to determine if you lean towards being more of a natural alpha or more of a natural beta. This test applies to your women life but perhaps can be extended to other parts of your life too.

    If a women you are hooking up with or sexually interested in, friend-zones you and you keep hanging out with her platonically, you know you lean more towards being a natural beta.

    If a women you are hooking up with or sexually interested in, friend-zones you and you next her, you know you lean more towards being alpha. If you next her with 0 drama, you are a potential alpha 2.0.

  28. Their is a huge difference between “fucking” and “planning to fuck.” As I said above, if this woman is actively and regularly helping you actually put your penis inside other girls, then it’s not friend zone and you should proceed. At that point she’s a pivot or a wingman, not a friend zone.

    But if it’s just you hoping or fantasizing that maybe that might happen at some point with her friends, then yes it’s friend zone and you’re a beta.

    Again, fucking and planning to fuck are two completely different things, and you’re mashing them together as if they’re the same. While you’re sitting around with your friend zone girl hoping to fuck one of her friends, I actually am.

    You’re not getting my point. I specifically said that to use a platonic female friend as a way to fuck other girls is not the only reason to have one. It is only one of the possible reasons (and you are the one who said it’s a legitimate reason).

    When I say “fuck or plan to fuck other girls”, I don’t necessarily refer to her friends.

    The reason I specified “planning to fuck” is that for many of us who aren’t skilled alpha players yet it’s possible to go through a period of time in which we don’t have a sex partner. It would be absurd if during that period we had to ditch our female platonic friend, just because we aren’t fucking anyone at the moment. What matters is that our sexual energy is consciously aimed at other girls, meaning you fantasize about and work towards fucking other girls, not the one who is unavailable.

    In my opinion, if you are fucking other girls or if your sexual energy is directed towards other girls, then it is not frustrating to be around a hot friend.

    No, validation is when you sit there like the beta you are and listen to her complain about all the Alphas she’s fucking while you nod your head and be good little best guy friend orbiter, giving her all the emotional validation she craves

    If a friendship consists mostly of listening to complaints, then it isn’t a positive in your life, whether the friend is a hot woman, an old ugly woman, or a man. Clearly not all friendships with women are like this. For example you have an old female friend, and I bet that your friendship doesn’t consist of listening to her complaints.

    while you go home with blue balls and masturbate while thinking about her.

    If I have a platonic friend, I don’t masturbate thinking about her. If I did, the relationship would become humiliating. When I masturbate I think about someone else, not a platonic friend. The choice of who you think about when you are masturbating is a conscious one.

    By the way, how is it any different if a woman is hooking you up with her friends? Following your logic, if the mere presence of a hot girl in your life means that you must automatically become obsessed with fucking her in particular no matter how many other girls you are fucking, I don’t see how this would change if she hooks you up with other girls… you’d still get girl-specific blue balls according to your logic and that would still be a problem according to your logic.

    Not only friend zone, but classic friend zone.

    I shouldn’t reply to that since it is not an argument but if this is “classic”, then how do you call it when the guy is actually in love with his friend and actually fantasizes about fucking her?

  29. The only way I would consider being friends with a girl acceptable is if:

    1. You are not doing her any favors, paying for activities that you do together, or listening to her problems.

    2. You are actually fucking other girls.

    3. You actually have time after dating/fucking other women plus work and hobbies.

    4. You actually enjoy her company, and aren’t ever thinking “omg this girl is annoying, but damn she’s hot.”

    5. She gives you social connections that you don’t have access to without her.

    That is still friend zone and I would never do that.

    BD (and most other posters) basically say that a somewhat attractive girl (not necessarily a hot one) is only “useful” if you can have sex with her.

    Incorrect. She can be very useful. I’m saying that carrying on a platonic friendship with such a woman will damage your happiness to some degree regardless of whatever (largely perceived) benefits you think you’re getting from her.

    You seem to imply that a fulfilling friendship can only happen with males or ugly women.

    Nope. You can have a perfectly fine friendship with a hot woman. You just won’t be as happy overall in that friendship as you would be with a man, or woman you’d never have sex with.

    I have a female friend I like to watch geek movies with

    Yet another guy with a platonic female friend who is therefore trying to defend friend zone.

    I promise you wouldn’t be doing this if you didn’t have her in your life right now.

    my other (male or ugly women) friends don’t enjoy them, so I must either go alone (and that doesn’t feel good or alpha in any way) or go with her.

    Or option three, which is, and I know this will totally blow your mind… find a new additional friend. There are 7.6 billion people on this planet. I’m pretty sure you can find another human being in your city who likes geek movies.

    Well, I hate going to the cinema alone, and I love talking about the movie afterwards. Never tried to seduce her, she’s not attractive enough, but if she did it, yeah, why not, I would certainly fuck her.

    Yeah. Friend zone. Have fun with that.

    Now, I agree that befriending hot women is painful, and now I avoid it no matter what, even if they would be objectively fun to hang out with.

    That’s an issue of degree. You still feel this with your current friend zone, just not as much.

    Regarding the link Duke posted, this seems insightful:

    And what you posted doesn’t change a thing I’m saying. Just because you don’t buy your friend zone a gym membership or take her to Mexico doesn’t mean you won’t feel sexual angst or feel or be perceived as a beta to some degree in her eyes.

    The reason I specified “planning to fuck” is that for many of us who aren’t skilled alpha players yet it’s possible to go through a period of time in which we don’t have a sex partner. It would be absurd if during that period we had to ditch our female platonic friend, just because we aren’t fucking anyone at the moment.

    I would ditch her even if you were fucking someone at the moment.

    Whether or not you’re fucking other women has nothing to do with it. Friend zone is friend zone regardless of if you’re having sex with 12 women or zero.

    What matters is that our sexual energy is consciously aimed at other girls, meaning you fantasize about and work towards fucking other girls, not the one who is unavailable.

    That doesn’t lessen the sexual desire you have for her.

    In my opinion, if you are fucking other girls or if your sexual energy is directed towards other girls, then it is not frustrating to be around a hot friend.

    Yes it is, just not as much as the friend zone who also has oneitis. Again, it’s an issue of degree. And again, if you really want to do this, don’t let me stop you. Go right ahead.

    If I have a platonic friend, I don’t masturbate thinking about her.

    Still doesn’t change what I said.

    (And I’m not sure if I believe you. You seem to be defending this friend zone relationship pretty hard, even after I said go ahead and do it if you want.)

    If I did, the relationship would become humiliating.

    It already is humiliating, at least to me. I would never do such a thing.

    how is it any different if a woman is hooking you up with her friends?

    I didn’t say if you’re hooking up with her friends. I said, twice, that if she’s actually helping you hook up with her friends, then it’s okay because at that point she’s a wingman/pivot and not friend zone. If all you’re doing is hooking up with her friends without any of her help, then fuck that, that’s friend zone and you shouldn’t do it.

    Following your logic, if the mere presence of a hot girl in your life means that you must automatically become obsessed with fucking her in particular no matter how many other girls you are fucking

    I have said literally nothing like that.

    if this is “classic”, then how do you call it when the guy is actually in love with his friend and actually fantasizes about fucking her?

    That isn’t classic friend zone. That’s uber-beta oneitis.

    Classic friend zone is when someone says exactly what you said, which is: you genuinely enjoy the time spent with her, not just because she is hot but because you get along particularly well as friends, and/or she has other ways to enrich your life.

    Classic friend zone.

  30. Cool article.  I never thought of being put in the friend zone because a woman is under 18 or married.  But you are absolutely correct.

  31. I promise you wouldn’t be doing this if you didn’t have her in your life right now.

    QFT.

    I find it curious that the only men here defending friend zone are the ones currently in friend zone.

  32. @azog

    Why would that be curious? Those who mind being “friendzoned” avoid it. Those who don’t mind (or not as much) stay in the friend zone. Sounds logical to me.

  33. https://thoughtcatalog.com/christine-stockton/2015/08/9-men-tell-us-how-badly-their-completely-platonic-female-friends-turn-them-on/

    So pathetic. But of course this is normal for most people because of monogamy. Then they keep someone else around platonically because thats the closes they are allowed to having more. If you arent monogamous there is no reason to have female friends without benefits: all the women in your life you either date or they are colleagues. Want a geek female friend to watch anime with? Find a friend with benefits who likes that (I just had dates with 2 girls this week who are into this). Literally no excuse to do friends without benefits.

    Funny thing is most of the women who wanted to be so called just friends with me were definitely not a friendship material. I found out when I said no to them and wished them the best: they didn’t even reply.

    But I don’t agree with BD about waiting one year of silence to make a move, make a move now. The reason is there is a percentage of friendzones where the woman is keeping the guy as a back up. In this case if you force her to chose she might say yes out of fear of losing you. Perhaps this has lower chance of working out than BD’s technique but you dont have to wait a year 🙂

    If she insists you are real friends ask her to hook you up with some of her female friends, because a real friend would do that right.

    Why would that be curious? Those who mind being “friendzoned” avoid it. Those who don’t mind (or not as much) stay in the friend zone. Sounds logical to me.

    They just think they are getting other benefits that are worth it. I know, I’ve been there. That mindset is based on scarcity and not being able to get new girls relatively easily. Over time as I became more Alpha and got better with women these friendzones have naturally dissolved for various reasons.

  34. I never thought of being put in the friend zone because a woman is under 18 or married.  But you are absolutely correct.

    Yes married woman is a monogamy thing and friendzone is the only thing monogamous people can do if they want to interact with more prospects. I hope that anyone over 25 isnt friends with under 18s those are purely for sex. And if you live in some place with insane fascist laws that say a woman needs to be 18 to be legal then its a reason to move, not an invitation to be platonic with her.

  35. Yet another guy with a platonic female friend who is therefore trying to defend friend zone.

    Well, okay then. You call friendzone both “befriending a woman because and only because you desperately want to fuck her but can’t do it” and “having a friend that, incidentally, you would agree to fuck”. They are the same thing to you, but two very different concepts to me, and I certainly won’t defend the first version, but the second one, sure.

    Or option three, which is, and I know this will totally blow your mind… find a new additional friend. There are 7.6 billion people on this planet. I’m pretty sure you can find another human being in your city who likes geek movies.

    Yeah, that blows my mind. Actively looking for a new friend (a guy) just to come with me and watch movies sounds like a very inefficient use of my time. I meet new friends randomly, at work or during hobbies, I never tried to actively seek new friendships.

    Option 1 : hang out with her, then use my spare time to find a new sexual partner.

    Option 2 : use my spare time to find a new male friend, then hang out with him.

    I’ll choose option 1, but to each his own.

  36. But I don’t agree with BD about waiting one year of silence to make a move, make a move now. The reason is there is a percentage of friendzones where the woman is keeping the guy as a back up. In this case if you force her to chose she might say yes out of fear of losing you. Perhaps this has lower chance of working out than BD’s technique but you dont have to wait a year.

    Probably it has less than 5% to work and if it does work you are dooming the relationship from the start. This is a typical beta behavior who’ve had enough blue balls and he gives an “ultimatum” out of the blue. That’s not congruent and the woman will still feel your weakness even if you mean it.

    If you got yourself in a friendzone situation the woman must forget this situation. And the only way to do it is vanish. Don’t put yourself in a friendzone situation at all. It is simple as that.

    This is the whole play in a friendzone situation: M:”I’m your weak buddy and I never had the guts to make a move to fuck you. Because I’m a pussy and I’m needy and I don’t want to lose you.”

    W: “I know you are weak and pussy and I can sense it from your frame. So I can play with you as I see fit. Because of this weakness of yours, my pussy is so dry, it’ll be damn difficult, nearly impossible to make it wet”.

    Now tell me do you think if you give ultimatum or try to be a man out of the blue will make her pussy wet all of a sudden? And in the case that you will succeed making her fuck you because of pity or because she wants to show you around as a trophy boyfriend for a while, do you think the relationship is set the right way?

    You need to vanish like she never existed in your life. And go do your own thing, hit the gym, fuck other women, work on your own business etc. Even if you never fucked her, you will not care. The point is instead of being in a self destructive situation better start all over the right way.

  37. I meet new friends randomly, at work or during hobbies, I never tried to actively seek new friendships.

    There are proven techniques out there on how to expand your social circle. As always, it’s just a skill…put in the work and you’ll learn it.

    Also I don’t know why guys defend friendzone tooths and nails like that. BD made it very clear on his post:

    step one: Ask yourself “Do I wanna fuck her?”.

    step two: If the answer is no, do what you like. If the answer is yes, there’s no “buts”: take you best shot or get out and go sarge other women.

    I have a grand total of two female friends that I’ve never had sex with. One is my best friend since I was 2 years old, so she’s like my slight older sister. The other is too old for me, but we have a lot of things in common. All the other chicks in my life are either former mono-GF’s, FB‘s, etc.

    I have sex first, then I befriend them…that’s the natural order of things from a masculine perspective.

  38. Ive one particular college male friend who have been friend zoned by multiple social group girls cause he sucked at dating. Recently, he asked me how to rekindle the ‘fire’ from a few girls. I told him to hang out with more girls. Purposely ask the girl to snap selfie but its ‘HER’ holding the camera.

    Perhaps it may deep try hard, but this was one of the closest solutions for him, immediately.

  39. Probably it has less than 5% to work and if it does work you are dooming the relationship from the start. This is a typical beta behavior who’ve had enough blue balls and he gives an “ultimatum” out of the blue. That’s not congruent and the woman will still feel your weakness even if you mean it.

    If you read the rest of my comment you would see the rationale behind this is which is completely different. Its based on the idea that she is into you but is reserving you as a back up. She might go with it out of fear of losing you. She will discover the guy is real about it when she stops talking to her until “she reconsiders”. I don’t know about you but less than 5% chance now sounds a lot better to me than less than 15% chance for which I have to wait one year. However, I am not in that situation nor do I expect to be so I don’t care what the actual chances are, but this would be my advice to others who are in such situation.

    I have sex first, then I befriend them…that’s the natural order of things from a masculine perspective.

    Agreed. You can be friends with the chicks you fuck.

    Ive one particular college male friend who have been friend zoned by multiple social group girls cause he sucked at dating. Recently, he asked me how to rekindle the ‘fire’ from a few girls.

    He just needs to go to a lot of dates and review it once in a while and try new things. It just gets better naturally over time on its own. Also being very blunt and direct works super wonders, especially when you have dont give a fuck attitude.

    Option 1 : hang out with her, then use my spare time to find a new sexual partner.

    Option 2 : use my spare time to find a new male friend, then hang out with him.

    I have a feeling you dont have a lot of women in your life sexually and that perhaps what would help you is to rethink your priorities. What if you tried first to use your time to work on getting new partner(s) and then use the rest of your time to hang out with this platonic friend? Once you start getting results I am pretty sure you will just say you dont have time for platonic girls anymore.

  40. This is seems a little bit extreme to me. What about ‘heteroflexible’ men, men who are slightly on the bi side? Are these men doomed (even if in practice they only go for chicks because they’re much more attracted to them) just because they are “not attracted, but wouldn’t necessarily say no” to fucking even their male friends, let alone a female friend? Many supposedly straight guys who take some lengths to unblock their early life’s SP turn out to be merely “default heterosexual-ish”. Does that mean that only the super-hardcore 100% straight guys can have friends of any sex without being miserable?

    My point is that once you look at incremental degrees of attraction, it just seems extreme to systematically shun being friends even with a 5 or 5.5. What if you’re projecting your own super-high sex drive on more ordinary men? It could be that a higher than average sex drive means that being around a plain-but-fuckable girl without fucking her simply crosses your unhappiness threshold way easier than in average sex drive men.

  41. My point is that once you look at incremental degrees of attraction, it just seems extreme to systematically shun being friends even with a 5 or 5.5. What if you’re projecting your own super-high sex drive on more ordinary men? It could be that a higher than average sex drive means that being around a plain-but-fuckable girl without fucking her simply crosses your unhappiness threshold way easier than in average sex drive men.

    There is a difference in “I might fuck her under some circumstances” and “I want to fuck/kiss her/be romantic with her”. I had friends belonging to the former in the past and it was not problem for me in the slightest and I would do it again as it did not result in any frustration or angst for me and I was never fantasizing about her.  I just acknowledged shes attractive generally speaking but isnt really my thing. Then she was like a sister to me, and obviously i dont have any sexual desires for my sister even though I acknowledge she might be attractive looking. So this scenario is perfectly fine. (Note: I would still not fuck an actual sister under any circumstances, just to clarify)

    On the other hand if its the second case (which I usually decide within 15 minutes of first meet, but sometimes also much later) then its either second date at my house and I am gonna make a move on her or nothing.

  42. Why would that be curious? Those who mind being “friendzoned” avoid it. Those who don’t mind (or not as much) stay in the friend zone. Sounds logical to me.

    The problem I pointed out is that men who are defending friend zone only because they’re currently in friend zone are not defending friend zone from any objective, rational standard. They’re just being defensive and emotional. It’s the same thing when I say monogamy doesn’t work. Single guys generally agree with me, guys who have been married longer than three years generally agree with me, but guys in relatively new (under 3 years) monogamous relationships lose their minds and start defending monogamy and making excuses. It’s irrational and childish.

    But I don’t agree with BD about waiting one year of silence to make a move, make a move now.

    That advice is fine but guys in friend zone would never do such a thing. That’s why they’re in friend zone.

    They are the same thing to you, but two very different concepts to me

    They are the same concept, just different in the level of degree. “Yeah, I don’t want to be unhappy, but some unhappiness is perfectly okay with me as long as it’s not too much.” Okay, great. You see the world differently than I do.

    I never tried to actively seek new friendships

    Excuses, excuses… all to defend friend zone.

    I hope your excuses make you happy.

    Not that you care.

    Just wondering how long has it been since you hit the online dating?

    Late last year I did a quick blitz of sugar daddy game right before PF moved in.

    This is seems a little bit extreme to me. What about ‘heteroflexible’ men, men who are slightly on the bi side?

    Oh my god.

  43. The thing is what these girl “friends” bring you (interesting conversation, someone to go to the movies or do a specific activity with etc.), you can find girls bringing you the same thing, but whom you can fuck!

    There are so many cool, attractive chicks who will enthusiastically an alpha 2.0, that it makes zero sense being friend with an attractive girl that won’t let you fuck her.

    It’s like going to a restaurant and seeing a menu like :

    – Cheeseburger : $15

    – Cheeseburger + fries + drink + desert : $15

    Why go for the cheeseburger only for the same price?! It makes no sense.

    I have plenty of women friends… that I fuck! Sex is the basis of my friendship with females

  44. The thing is what these girl “friends” bring you (interesting conversation, someone to go to the movies or do a specific activity with etc.), you can find girls bringing you the same thing, but whom you can fuck!

    Its good to see some guys who get it, but the guys who defend it are in the stage where they arent able to get women yet, thats why they put up with it because they just want to have a woman around. They just need to rethink how they spend their time…

  45. a condition where you want to have sex with a woman you personally spend time with, but she won’t let you. I’m not talking about anything else…

    What about chicks you want to have sex with but don’t care if you do? I have a lot of chicks like that in my life, but I don’t really care if I have sex with them or not. Or chicks that I previously had sex with but don’t care about having sex with them again.

  46. What about chicks you want to have sex with but don’t care if you do? I have a lot of chicks like that in my life, but I don’t really care if I have sex with them or not. Or chicks that I previously had sex with but don’t care about having sex with them again.

    Then why would you care about whether you meet them again or not. You must have too much free time. I would only ask them to meet if I wanted to bang someone and the ones I did care about were not available. In this case they would be useless to me if they did not want to bang. Its also bad for you if she learns she can get away with meeting you without sex because then when you call up on her for sex she might come over but not deliver and thats a big problem, because if you knew you could have arranges someone else instead.

  47. What if you’re projecting your own super-high sex drive on more ordinary men? It could be that a higher than average sex drive means that being around a plain-but-fuckable girl without fucking her simply crosses your unhappiness threshold way easier than in average sex drive men.

    I quote this Gil Galad’s because I find it a good point.

  48. What if you’re projecting your own super-high sex drive on more ordinary men? It could be that a higher than average sex drive means that being around a plain-but-fuckable girl without fucking her simply crosses your unhappiness threshold way easier than in average sex drive men.

    I quote this Gil Galad’s because I find it a good point.

    I think the way I see it is the most important thing is that its that youre not getting any restrictions from the woman because then the interaction is on her terms and not on yours and thats beta no matter how you look at it.

  49. @AlphaOmega:If someone is in friend zone it means he wants to fuck the woman and the woman is at best “into him” because she gets the attention and the kindness of the beta not because she wants to fuck his brain out. She is afraid that she’ll lose the attention not the stallion she has next to her.

    If you go in immediately out of the blue you’ll just embarrass yourself and you won’t fuck her. Letting go and hitting her after a year comes more natural not only for the beta himself as a better man but in her eyes also.

     

  50. If someone is in friend zone it means he wants to fuck the woman and the woman is at best “into him” because she gets the attention and the kindness of the beta not because she wants to fuck his brain out. She is afraid that she’ll lose the attention not the stallion she has next to her.

    Thats good enough if shes into him. After all if he finally hits on her hes showing he can also act like a man. Of course if you always hang out at your place for hours and only talk and then one time you start touching her up its gonna be weird. Then you probably have to either verbalize it first or come up with some other setting that is highly suggestive. If on the other hand he was not doing that before then her being finally at his place plus he watches a movie with her and cuddles up etc thats something else. I dont know, I just start touching every girl who comes to my house within a short time of her being there. I dont give a fuck what the situation is or what happend or didnt happen before. The girls are free to leave any time but usually they stay for hours which means I just keep escalating.

    The difference is that these guys are afraid to “lose her as a friend”. I know, I was in that mindset in the past. They need to let go of this way of thinking. When I ditched some women from my life who were not gonna sleep with me I always felt happy and relieved afterwards. It becomes easy once you do it a few times.

    Of course sometimes the girl tries to avoid my place, but I am strict with that. Either she comes to my place (except for first meeting) or we dont meet. Once shes at my place I always get touchy. If its clear she wants to be just friend I get touchy despite that on purpose. Of course she then leaves but the alternative would be for me to kick her out, which I hate doing. I prefer that she runs away from me.

  51. Its good to see some guys who get it, but the guys who defend it are in the stage where they arent able to get women yet, thats why they put up with it because they just want to have a woman around. They just need to rethink how they spend their time…

    Correct. They need to rethink how they spend their time.

    What about chicks you want to have sex with but don’t care if you do?

    I bolded the key part for you. It’s friend zone. Obviously.

    Or chicks that I previously had sex with but don’t care about having sex with them again.

    That’s zone 2 or zone 3, which are also not good (though not quite as bad as zone 1).

    What if you’re projecting your own super-high sex drive on more ordinary men? It could be that a higher than average sex drive means that being around a plain-but-fuckable girl without fucking her simply crosses your unhappiness threshold way easier than in average sex drive men.

    I quote this Gil Galad’s because I find it a good point.

    I’m not talking about my unhappiness. I don’t experience this problem because I don’t do friend zone and never have. Not once in my entire adult life have I done friend zone, and I’m 45 years old.

    I’m talking about the unhappiness I see other men go through over and over and over and over again when they’re in friend zone, including, and this is important, the men who defend friend zone saying that it’s no big deal, or that they need a friend to do X, or that they’re not dying to fuck her, and so on.

  52. Jesus Christ! So many rationalizations from the beta crowd here. Let me make this as simple as possible:

    An adult woman in your personal life, whom you’re not related to,  can do only three things with you:

    1. Have sex with you

    2. Ignore you

    3. Abuse you

    That’s it. There is no fourth alternative! Obviously, this doesn’t apply to your blood relatives, women whom you have to deal with in your professional life, or even personal interactions over the internet. But if you’re seeing a woman face to face on a regular basis in your personal life, the above three options are the only ones that exist! Period!

    Another question: female friends have their own female friends, and even if your friend does not want to fuck you, her friends might like it, so wouldn’t it be worth it?

    Bullshit! I have very bad news for you: Female friends don’t want to fuck their friends’ rejects! No woman wants to be seen as less picky, or of a lower status, than the female friend who rejected you. You’re living in a fantasy. No woman has ever said to her female friend, “Well, he’s not good enough for me, but you can have him.”

    You ask a female friend to hook you up, she’ll wiggle out of it by saying something like, “Oh my friends aren’t your type. They’ll break your heart and cheat on you. I wouldn’t be a good friend if I hooked you up with them. You need a nice girl that will treat you well.” Then she’ll try to hook you up with a 25 year old obese virgin who’s a “nice girl” who will “treat a nice boy like you well.”

    If a woman isn’t attracted to you, she doesn’t respect you. If she doesn’t respect you, she won’t hook you up with her friends. If she thought you were hot enough for her friends, she’d be fucking you herself (and sharing you with her friends).

    My girlfriend has hooked me up with plenty of her friends. She introduced me to my current married fuck buddy (who is also an anal freak), but I must stress that my girlfriend is fucking me also, lol!

     

     

     

  53. About the chores, if it’s inside or close to your house, having a payed maid is way better than hosting a probing chick who have second interests in you and could blow up your privacy anytime she likes, don’t you think?.

    I think you missed my point. I am not talking a bout hosting anyone here. Just having some women who are sexually attracted to me, help me with stuffs. Like running errands for me. The idea is to bank on the investment of contacting this woman and meeting her on a first date just to find out I am not attracted to her but she is to me. Most of the time this is lost. But if she could help me with stuff it wouldn’t be completely lost. Women do that all the time with their beta orbiters, why us alpha wouldn’t do that too. Very similarly how women have beta orbiters that constantly drive them for free, solve their computer problems, etc…

    Maid costs money, whereas these women would do these stuffs for free. Just to have the privilege to hangout with me for a while. Meanwhile she hangs out I could be doing something else, that I would have done alone anyways, such as watching a movie that I wanted to watch anyways. So the cost in time/attention is also virtually zero.

    I was thinking telling those kind of girls when they want to meet : I don’t have time, I am too busy and later I have to go buy “Insert list of boring groceries” at “Insert store name”. Then maybe she says “Oh I am going there too”. And I could then say : “Oh ok then you could buy these stuffs while you’re there that will save me some time to meet you up after when you bring them to me, of course I will give you back the money you advanced”. Then when she delivers those stuffs at my place, I immediately proceed to watch with her this movie that I was going to watch alone anyways (or other free activity), and mke it clear that I will be busy right after that and genty kick her out when the movie or activity is finished. Perhaps I give her a hug, kiss on the cheek or something physical like that so she gets some kind of “high” or reward. Bam! I just saved 1 or 2 hours of grunt work and transportation. Cost : zero.

    Has anyone pulled off that kind of scenario? Note that this could possibly also be done with male friends and women you fuck anyways, but I am talking here about platonic friends, FB and MLTR NOT OLTR, housemates or anyone living with you.

    Thanks for the other part, I didn’t know it was called pivoting.

  54. By ”hanging out”, I suppose it’s 1-on-1 face-to-face, right?

    What about hanging out with a mixed group where there are some hot girls that I’m totally down to fuck, but for some reason are off-limits (like a good friend’s little sister or OLTR‘s best girlfriend…)

    I have sexual angst from them sometimes and it’s clearly a negative emotion. However, refusing to hang out with the group just because of that reason alone is quite overkill, IMO. The pros outweigh the cons.

  55. This book explains why women hate nice guys — “No more Mr. Nice Guy : a proven plan for getting what you want in love, sex and life” by Robert A Glover. Bottom line, it’s because the nice guy isn’t really a nice guy. He’s being manipulative hoping to get something in return. More like it’s a business transaction, than true friendship. The object of his affection sees him as being a douche bag.

    I blame hollywood for the epidemic we have in friend zoning. EVERY SINGLE rom com is about a weak, dorky guy who’s hoping that by being a friend to the hot girl she will eventually be appreciative and jump on him. And it always works. In the movies, that is. Never in real life as BD explains. You have to touch her on the first date or she will see you as a (possibly gay) friend or not interested.

  56. I was thinking telling those kind of girls when they want to meet : I don’t have time, I am too busy and later I have to go buy “Insert list of boring groceries” at “Insert store name”. Then maybe she says “Oh I am going there too”. And I could then say : “Oh ok then you could buy these stuffs while you’re there that will save me some time to meet you up after when you bring them to me, of course I will give you back the money you advanced”. Then when she delivers those stuffs at my place, I immediately proceed to watch with her this movie that I was going to watch alone anyways (or other free activity), and mke it clear that I will be busy right after that and genty kick her out when the movie or activity is finished. Perhaps I give her a hug, kiss on the cheek or something physical like that so she gets some kind of “high” or reward. Bam! I just saved 1 or 2 hours of grunt work and transportation. Cost : zero.

    In other words you’re a total jerk. I bet they do that thinking they can have something with you and you werent honest that youre not into them. In my view this is not how a man should be treating a woman even one you are not attracted to. Needless to say any girl with even average intelligence will see through this after second time and will be done with you. On the bright side its yet another way to get out of friend zone 😀 Expect an angry speech from her.

    I once had a girl who was kinda friend (back in those days, yes) asking to meet up to have a discussion about my behavior. She thought she was gonna wipe the floor with my ass and put me in line. Of course, I made it clear I dont give a shit what she think and she changed from angry to crying and cried for half an hour… we were in public.. geez.

    but for some reason are off-limits (like a good friend’s little sister

    That isn’t off limits in my mind. I would certainly hit on her, though perhaps in a more discreet way.

    I have sexual angst from them sometimes and it’s clearly a negative emotion. However, refusing to hang out with the group just because of that reason alone is quite overkill, IMO. The pros outweigh the cons.

    Can you tell us what are the pros then? Why cant you imagine you could be doing something else instead during that time, for example having dates with women who are into you?

    it’s because the nice guy isn’t really a nice guy. He’s being manipulative hoping to get something in return. More like it’s a business transaction, than true friendship. The object of his affection sees him as being a douche bag.

    Exactly, its like giving something with one hand and saying its out of kindness but at the same time stretching out the other hand asking for payment. And conversely, what is often called the “bad guy” is a guy who is honest 🙂

    You have to touch her on the first date or she will see you as a (possibly gay) friend or not interested.

    You don’t have to but it sure helps. Indeed thinking back the results were much better with the girls where there was touching on first date already.

    You ask a female friend to hook you up, she’ll wiggle out of it by saying something like,

    Indeed, I never had a female friend hook me up with someone, even though many of them said on their own they would. And if you dated before or if shes a bit into you herself (like having you as back up) theres no way she would do that, of course.

  57. What about hanging out with a mixed group where there are some hot girls that I’m totally down to fuck, but for some reason are off-limits (like a good friend’s little sister

    I don’t get it. Why can’t you fuck your good friend’s little sister? Assuming she’s an adult, what’s the problem?

    See, this is what I REALLY hate about alpha 1.0s and tradcons in general. Just like radical feminists, they view sex as something inherently harmful to women. “You can fuck women I don’t know, but you can’t fuck my sister because I love her.” Um….wouldn’t the fact that you love your sister make you want me to fuck her even more? What’s wrong? You don’t want me to make your sister happy? I thought you loved her.

    This is why tradcons hate “sluts” and worship virgins. Like in porn, the more they fuck a woman, the more they hate her. The more she cooperates, the more aggressive and hateful the sex becomes. Most modern day pornography panders to this sick element of self-hating conservative culture.

    or OLTR’s best girlfriend…)

    HAHA! Funny. My OLTR‘s best girlfriend was the very first girl my girl insisted that we fuck together.

    I have sexual angst from them sometimes and it’s clearly a negative emotion. However, refusing to hang out with the group just because of that reason alone is quite overkill, IMO.

    There is no rational reason why you can’t fuck them, at least none that you’ve given.

     

  58.  Women do that all the time with their beta orbiters, why us alpha wouldn’t do that too.

    Because we’re not abusive assholes!

    Why would you inflict cruelty on an innocent fat woman just because you see horrible women inflicting cruelty on innocent skinny betas? Shame on you!

     

  59.  Women do that all the time with their beta orbiters, why us alpha wouldn’t do that too.

    Because we’re not abusive assholes!

    AND because we have better things to do with our time. Like making money, fucking women or fulfilling our passions.

    An adult woman in your personal life, whom you’re not related to,  can do only three things with you:

    1. Have sex with you

    2. Ignore you

    3. Abuse you

    That’s it. There is no fourth alternative!

    Not entirely correct. There are also various combinations of those 3, or even all 3 at once, but that is another story. But remember: you can only be abused if you allow it.

    I don’t get it. Why can’t you fuck your good friend’s little sister? Assuming she’s an adult, what’s the problem?

    Even if she was underage, assuming you are ‘normal’ then if you are attracted to her shes probably not far from being legal. Can get her interested in you and have some innocent dates and stretch it a bit and then when she hits the age proceed into her pants. Then your friend can be happy his best friend blessed his sister and made her a woman.

  60. I agree,  the only guys here defending FZ are those who are in it. Case in point, I had a hot female friend who I met through another hot female friend, an ex gf. There was killer chemistry between us but it was ME who kept her in FZ, because I have no fucking idea why. Perhaps  I thought it would be cool to have a hot female friend, and I was already banging a very nice rotating pool of girls. Fast forward a year, we wind up getting drunk and making out. If I had done this a year prior, I would have fucked her soon thereafter. Instead, we wound up dating after the make out and I NEVER got to sex.  Why? Because it was just”too weird” after being “such close friends”.  Yep, I gave emotional intimacy without getting physical intimacy in return. The result? No pussy when I would have surely gotten it a year earlier if I had maintained a sexual frame. Idiot. Don’t be me. I learned my lesson. See previous post.

  61. Why? Because it was just”too weird” after being “such close friends”.

    You fucked up not once but twice. Thats just an excuse you were already making out, you should have pressed on. If she still resisted you should have said that now because of the making out it would be weird to be normal friends again so its either this or we terminate, and, most importantly if she still refused you really terminate.

  62. By ”hanging out”, I suppose it’s 1-on-1 face-to-face, right?

    No. I’m talking about hanging out, in person, where you are directly interacting with her. I doesn’t matter if you’re 1-on-1 or have six mutual friends sitting around you while you talk and you’re staring at her boobs wishing you could touch them.

    If you’re all sitting at a giant table of like 10 people and she’s on the far end, so the direct interaction between the two if you is near-nonexistent, than that’s fine. But if you’re close to her and talking to her and she’s talking directly with you, then congratulations, you’re in friend zone.

    What about hanging out with a mixed group where there are some hot girls that I’m totally down to fuck, but for some reason are off-limits (like a good friend’s little sister or OLTR’s best girlfriend…)

    That’s friend zone obviously. I was pretty clear about that in the article.

    I have sexual angst from them sometimes and it’s clearly a negative emotion.

    Why you’re trying to defend it then?

    However, refusing to hang out with the group just because of that reason alone is quite overkill, IMO. The pros outweigh the cons.

    That’s why you have sexual angst. Good luck with that.

  63. The only way I would consider being friends with a girl acceptable is if:
    1. You are not doing her any favors, paying for activities that you do together, or listening to her problems.
    2. You are actually fucking other girls.
    3. You actually have time after dating/fucking other women plus work and hobbies.
    4. You actually enjoy her company, and aren’t ever thinking “omg this girl is annoying, but damn she’s hot.”
    5. She gives you social connections that you don’t have access to without her.
    6. You don’t care about having sex with her at all.

    I agree, and added one point. That’s not as much friend zone as it is just having a chick as one of your buddies. And that 4th point, that’s a thing? I don’t care how attractive a chick is, if she’s annoying then I’m good lol.

    Also to BD: What about chicks you live very far away from but you are still chatting with? That was the point I was getting at earlier, the “want to have sex but don’t care if I do” point. Also what about taken chicks in your social circle? Wouldn’t you almost have to have female buddies in a social circle, if they are in a relationship and you know they are off limits?

    I wouldn’t be surprised if some men get “high” off being around women they are not fucking instead of feeling angst. There’s certainly some freaks out there.

    Gay guys are like that. They flirt and fool around with chicks (who desperately want to fuck him) but since they are gay they don’t feel any angst. The chicks, however…

    I witnessed this first hand two or so years ago in my bowling league, this gay guy would hang out and flirt with a bunch of chicks but would never make a move or anything. And pretty much all the chicks he was flirting with wanted to have sex with him. But he wasn’t having it. The chicks would be markedly more upset about stuff over the course of that week. There were like 6 or 7 chicks he was buddies with, flirted with all of them. I never seen so much sexual frustration from chicks lol. They were all college girls too, it would be nothing for any of them to just start making power moves on that dude and fuck the gay out of him haha.

    So chicks have to deal with the friend zone as well, usually from gay guys who they want to “convert” but don’t have the courage to just hit it lol. They’ll have to learn, as we’re probably gonna see a whole bunch more gay guys come out of the woodwork as the west slowly becomes more matriarchal.

  64. No, validation is when you sit there like the beta you are and listen to her complain about all the Alphas she’s fucking while you nod your head and be good little best guy friend orbiter, giving her all the emotional validation she craves while you go home with blue balls and masturbate while thinking about her.
    Don’t you have better ways to spend your time?

    Ok, but there’s something you should have added to either that comment or, better, the article.

    There’s an Italian song which says: people start teaching morals soon as they can no longer act immorally.

    Same: women start “loving” niceguys the moment the Wall approaches or for any other reason they lose hope to get one of the other guys.

    If nice-guy keeps orbiting, and she finds herself without other options in the present and future, she may “fall in love” for him, marry with him, and — obliging to subconscious demands to compensate — spam her Facebook wall with pictures and other reminders of their together-happiness for the years to come (maybe except some days when she gets laid by someone she likes, but that’ll hardly happen now, given her SMV.)

    So, enduring the most pride-deflating friend zone may earn niceguy his dreams of dreams: Marriage with his Love.

     

     

  65. There is another exception that has occured to me, this will not apply to most people, but perhaps it might to some of you.

    It is when you are spending time with her as a charity kind of thing. In other words you are doing it to help her. Here I dont mean help her in order to get something else or hoping she will do something for you. No it is when you see she really could use help and you feel enough compassion for her AND you genuinely think you CAN help her. This is distinct from business partners clearly and it is also not a friend, but perhaps you can think of her as a professional category. But the key is here you dont expect anything in return. If she does ask if she can do something for you, then you just smile and say she can repay it by doing something nice for someone else.

  66. What about chicks you live very far away from but you are still chatting with?

    That’s okay. (Provided you’re not chatting all the time.)

    That was the point I was getting at earlier, the “want to have sex but don’t care if I do” point.

    You can’t have sex with her if she lives far away, so it’s okay.

    Also what about taken chicks in your social circle?

    Addressed that in the article. Yes, that’s friend zone.

    Wouldn’t you almost have to have female buddies in a social circle

    No.

    if they are in a relationship and you know they are off limits?

    No.

    Your social circle can look anything like you want it to look. No one is putting  gun to your head and forcing you to have cute girls you don’t fuck in your social circle. (And again, read what I said in my comment right above about how it’s okay if they’re in your social circle but you have little to no direct contact.)

  67. If nice-guy keeps orbiting, and she finds herself without other options in the present and future, she may “fall in love” for him, marry with him, and — obliging to subconscious demands to compensate — spam her Facebook wall with pictures and other reminders of their together-happiness for the years to come (maybe except some days when she gets laid by someone she likes, but that’ll hardly happen now, given her SMV.)

    So, enduring the most pride-deflating friend zone may earn niceguy his dreams of dreams: Marriage with his Love.

    Are you high?

    I’m being serious. Did you smoke something or take something before typing that comment?

  68. I hope that anyone over 25 isnt friends with under 18s those are purely for sex. And if you live in some place with insane fascist laws that say a woman needs to be 18 to be legal then its a reason to move, not an invitation to be platonic with her.

    LOL! So if it is illegal for me to have sex with a girl who is under 18, I should move?

    Fucking underage girls doesn’t mean THAT much to me. I mean, sure, I guess it would be nice to fuck the brains out of a big breasted high school sophomore (and, as a libertarian, I do think that laws against it are pretty stupid), but I’m more than sexually satisfied with adult women. There’s no reason for me to move to another country just so I can fuck 15 year olds. Maybe when I’m on vacation sure, but here, adult women are more than enough for me.

    Besides, every time the sun comes up, another girl turns 18.

     

  69. Not entirely correct. There are also various combinations of those 3, or even all 3 at once, but that is another story.

    Not sure how a woman can sleep with you AND ignore you. Those two are pretty mutually exclusive. But I do agree that a woman can be abusing you even if she’s sleeping with you.

    In order to avoid abuse, a woman must have sex with you for selfish reasons; that is, because she wants to. But if she’s having sex with you for generous reasons (like a generous lesbian), then yes, she’s abusing you, because she’s essentially a prostitute expecting materialistic shit in return for her “gift.”

    But remember: you can only be abused if you allow it.

    Agreed. But I don’t let gold digging whores off the hook just because I don’t let stupid betas off the hook either.

    Even if she was underage, assuming you are ‘normal’ then if you are attracted to her shes probably not far from being legal. Can get her interested in you and have some innocent dates and stretch it a bit and then when she hits the age proceed into her pants.

    Eh, that’s legally questionable. The police would, at the very least, start watching you. Until she’s 18, she’s under the legal authority of her parents. That means that if you persuade her to do something (even something non-sexual) that her parents don’t want, you are committing a felony – Contributing to the Delinquency of a Minor.

    You need to completely stay away from legal minors. Until they turn 18, they really are off limits.

    Then your friend can be happy his best friend blessed his sister and made her a woman.

    Made her a woman? You mean, took her virginity? By the time she’s 18, it’s safe to say that she has already had sex with 6 or 7 teenage guys. If she’s still a virgin by 18, she’s a prude and I want nothing to do with those types anyway.

     

  70. Your social circle can look anything like you want it to look. No one is putting  gun to your head and forcing you to have cute girls you don’t fuck in your social circle. (And again, read what I said in my comment right above about how it’s okay if they’re in your social circle but you have little to no direct contact.)

    That makes sense. Yeah I’m not wasting hours with the taken chicks in my social circle trying to get their validation and shit. And they would call me out for doing that anyways 😉

    I barely talk to the chicks I’m having sex with, I usually just tell them to hit me up if they need anything, then I don’t hear from them for awhile. Not sure if this is a good thing or not, but I’m indifferent to it.

    It is when you are spending time with her as a charity kind of thing. In other words you are doing it to help her. Here I dont mean help her in order to get something else or hoping she will do something for you. No it is when you see she really could use help and you feel enough compassion for her AND you genuinely think you CAN help her. 

    Yeah no chick I have ever known stands for this. Cuz they know there is a secret evil plan behind it. Always. End of. Non Negotiable.

    Babyface was wrong, and chicks know it. Don’t know who Babyface is? Google him and you’ll know what I mean 😉

    Chivalry is dead, women killed it, but it should have died a long time ago.

    if you live in some place with insane fascist laws that say a woman needs to be 18 to be legal then its a reason to move

    Agree with the observation (insane fascist laws that say a person needs to be 18 to be a legal adult), disagree with the proposed action. There are definitely better reasons to move.

    Same: women start “loving” niceguys the moment the Wall approaches or for any other reason they lose hope to get one of the other guys.
    If nice-guy keeps orbiting, and she finds herself without other options in the present and future, she may “fall in love” for him, marry with him, and — obliging to subconscious demands to compensate — spam her Facebook wall with pictures and other reminders of their together-happiness for the years to come (maybe except some days when she gets laid by someone she likes, but that’ll hardly happen now, given her SMV.)
    So, enduring the most pride-deflating friend zone may earn niceguy his dreams of dreams: Marriage with his Love.

    This is a joke, right? Cuz I’ve gotten with several “post-wall” chicks (what is the “wall” according to the Roosh nuthuggers who made that term now, anyways? 30?) and a fun thing we do on dates is make fun of the pathetic orbiting faggots who hit her up thinking they have a chance.

    “Nice Guy” = Asshole prick with no balls. Pretty much everyone knows this now. Even the “post-wall” chicks.

    Again, Babyface was wrong. And he always will be.

  71. Until she’s 18, she’s under the legal authority of her parents. That means that if you persuade her to do something (even something non-sexual) that her parents don’t want, you are committing a felony – Contributing to the Delinquency of a Minor.

    You need to completely stay away from legal minors. Until they turn 18, they really are off limits.

    See you just proved my point how insane the laws are and why you should move out. Not because of this one thing but if you have laws like this that actually get enforced theres gonna be lots of other insane shit in such a country, not to mention such a country does not have a bright future (because of the insane laws).

  72. Agree with the observation (insane fascist laws that say a person needs to be 18 to be a legal adult), disagree with the proposed action. There are definitely better reasons to move.

    See my post above in a reply to him; but lets look at this sentence in particular: “That means that if you persuade her to do something (even something non-sexual) that her parents don’t want, you are committing a felony – Contributing to the Delinquency of a Minor.” -> so a 14-17 year old is the property of the parents? talking walks, holding hands, cuddling etc a 17 year old is contributing to delinquency? If this is not a joke then you are living in an Orwellian dystopia. I’d say get the hell out of there asap.

  73. Yeah no chick I have ever known stands for this. Cuz they know there is a secret evil plan behind it. Always. End of. Non Negotiable.

    Babyface was wrong, and chicks know it. Don’t know who Babyface is? Google him and you’ll know what I mean

    Chivalry is dead, women killed it, but it should have died a long time ago.

    I am not sure if you purposely misread my comment or just didn’t get it, but I was not talking about this at all. What you suggest is being nice in order to get something back. After all chivalry is (was?) part of the courting (seducing?) process. I am not talking about that. I am talking about about spending face to face time with attractive woman that is acceptable (but its not friend zone because you are not friends and are not going to be). You are not there to fuck and you are not there be her friend. It does not matter what she thinks about you and what she wants or does not want with you. You are there to help her and after that you are gone. I know this might be hard to understand for some people here but there are some of us who like to do something selfless once in a while (perhaps to make up for some other stuff).

  74. In other words you’re a total jerk. I bet they do that thinking they can have something with you and you werent honest that youre not into them.

    I haven’t pulled off the groceries or other service type of thing yet. The only thing I did so far was the pivot, it worked great. She really was really helpful that night with night gaming. And it was several days after the first date, during which I already told her that I am not attracted to her in a physical way and I am not interested in her as a girlfriend. She asked if we could still be friends and I went along with it. It’s only after that I came up with the idea to go night game with her as a wing woman and me her wing man, each looking for someone to date.

    Now, I did feel that she was possibly still hoping something. There is undeniably the use of sex/romantic appeal/power/attraction. But at that stage it’s not my sole responsibility since I was crystal clear that I am not attracted to her, I don’t want her as girlfriend and she is in the friendzone. I am not sure if I was a jerk since she continued interacting with me even after she found a boyfriend.

     

    Women do that all the time with their beta orbiters, why us alpha wouldn’t do that too?
     
    Because we’re not abusive assholes!

    I don’t see the abuse. If the situation is reversed and there it’s not a girl I want to fuck but friendzoned me, who is asking me, but it’s a girl I fuck or a guy friend, I could totally do it as long as I trust them to pay me back the bill. While I am at it anyways, I could bring them the groceries they listed. It’s more efficient in the whole scheme of things.

    Women crave attention not sex, so she is rewarded with the attention, in this case we are watching together a movie at my place. Movie during which we can communicate a bit. I can also give her a hug and kiss on the cheek. (In my culture it’s completely normal behaviour to say hello and goodbye to friends with a kiss on the cheek, shaking the hand of a female friend is wierd. Only 2 men shake hands. Even in a business context it’s not unusual to kiss the cheek of female colleagues sharing the same office.)

    Giving her this attention. It’s as if the woman with beta orbiters would reward their service each time with sex… Fair deal, and that also means that these orbiters would not be in the friend zone actually… Not abusive in my opinion.

    Because women crave attention and not sex, they don’t percieve the friend zone as abusive for the man because they are unable to fully empathise with the sexual angst that it creates in the man. This goes both ways, meaning they don’t mind being friendzoned.

  75. BD is 100% correct, but this discussion doesn’t need to be this granular.  A simple “for best results, be friendly, but not friends with women” works.

    Too easy, and if you try it (like, really try it) you’ll figure out your life gets a ton better and you’ll never look back.

  76. BD is 100% correct, but this discussion doesn’t need to be this granular.

    Correct. To quote myself from the article:

    I know that a lot of men get very defensive, nitpicky, and even downright angry when discussing friend zone.

    Yup, just as you’ve seen in this thread.

    It’s sad.

  77. You are there to help her and after that you are gone. 

    Sooooooo, why help the chick in the first place if she isn’t disabled/sick/injured? I don’t help anyone who isn’t disabled/sick/injured. They can help themselves. And should.

    I know this might be hard to understand for some people here but there are some of us who like to do something selfless once in a while.

    That’s fine if you have ZERO expectations. If someone I know wants to buy something and is too broke, and I have money to spare, then I’ll hook them up.

    (perhaps to make up for some other stuff)

    Aaaaaand there’s your expectation. You’re expecting them to be grateful so you can alleviate some form of guilt that you have dreamed up. You don’t need to help anyone to “make up” for anything. That’s just superstitious nonsense. To be a good person, just don’t be malicious. That’s literally all you need to do. And if you are accidentally malicious, just own up to it. Much easier than thinking there is a “good thing” and “bad thing” checklist and making sure they are completely balanced.

    I have nothing against helping people, but leave expectations and other terms of engagement out of it.

  78. See you just proved my point how insane the laws are and why you should move out.

    No dude. I’m not going to move out of America just because I can’t fuck underage girls. That would show MASSIVE sexual scarcity on my part, as if I can’t have a fulfilling sex life unless I’m also fucking girls under 18. That would be pretty pathetic. I prefer the company of adults anyway. I don’t need underage pussy to be sexually satisfied. Jesus dude!

    Not because of this one thing but if you have laws like this that actually get enforced theres gonna be lots of other insane shit in such a country,

    I know the law better than most people and I think I have a handle on the other “insane shit.” I adapt. If it gets really bad, I’ll fight. But I won’t surrender my homeland and run away.

    not to mention such a country does not have a bright future (because of the insane laws).

    Why don’t you let us Americans worry about that! Thanks anyway though.

     

  79. so a 14-17 year old is the property of the parents?

    No, she’s not the property of her parents. She’s under the legal authority of her parents, but that authority does have limits. There are laws against child abuse (physical, psychological, sexual), as well as child neglect (physical, medical).

    talking walks, holding hands, cuddling etc a 17 year old is contributing to delinquency?

    First of all, it is beyond creepy in American culture (regardless of laws) for an adult to try to befriend an underage teenager. Most teenagers would be creeped out and would want nothing to do with you. They’d probably call the police themselves. Underage teenagers want to be friends with their own age group.

    Second of all, “delinquency” is defined as “any wilful disobedience of parental authority or malicious disregard of parental wishes on the part of an underage minor.” So yes, if her parents don’t want you even seeing her, then you encouraging her to see you, and her agreeing, is you “contributing to the delinquency of a minor,” which is a criminal felony on your part.

    That’s why BD shouldn’t allow anyone under 18 to comment on this blog. If he gives the child advice that is in violation of the wishes of his parents, and the child follows it, BD has just committed a crime by contributing to the delinquency of a minor!

    Further, if her parents forbid you from seeing her, but she runs away from home and comes to your house, if you don’t immediately return her to her parents, you can be charged with kidnapping, since her parents speak for her free will.

    The reason they have this authority over her is because they are responsible for her wellbeing. Responsibility comes with authority. When she’s 18, they’re not responsible for her anymore, so they have no authority over her.

    If this is not a joke then you are living in an Orwellian dystopia. I’d say get the hell out of there asap.

    HAHA! If I wanted to hang out with underage kids so badly, you’d have a point. But then I think there would be something wrong with me. Dude, it’s not so bad having sex only with adult women. Seriously, it’s not so bad. Like I said, I admit that it would be nice to fuck the brains out of an underage teenager every now and then, but I can live with sticking only to 18 year olds and above. No need to leave the country in protest, lol!

  80. I know this might be hard to understand for some people here but there are some of us who like to do something selfless once in a while

    This is masochism, or pathological altruism. As Ayn Rand said, it is the philosophy of cannibals.

    (perhaps to make up for some other stuff).

    LOL! So you have low self esteem and a guilt complex. Instead of giving away your labor without compensation, maybe investing in a therapist would be the healthier course of action.

     I don’t help anyone who isn’t disabled/sick/injured.

    I would also add that I don’t help anyone who IS disabled/sick/injured. At least not without reasonable compensation AND my prior consent to accept the compensation after I judge its fairness.

    Unless you’re being compensated for your labor, the only people in this world whom you are morally obligated to help are your family, your friends, and your lovers. But if they are not in your personal circle, you don’t owe them anything. If they ask for help, despite having no personal connection to you, either say no, or discuss your price.

    Remember, the New York “Good Samaritan law” – requiring you to stop and help if you see someone getting murdered, raped, beaten, robbed, etc… – was ruled Unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court, as violating the 13th Amendment’s prohibition against slavery! No one can force you to use your body or time against your wishes without concrete compensation.

     

  81. I never tried to actively seek new friendships

    Excuses, excuses… all to defend friend zone.
    I hope your excuses make you happy.
    Not that you care.

    OK, now you’re just trolling BD. Yeah, right, I developed an introverted personality just to be able, some day, to defend friend zone, and that day has come. Totally makes sense.

    Now, others have made interesting points.

    An adult woman in your personal life, whom you’re not related to,  can do only three things with you:
    1. Have sex with you
    2. Ignore you
    3. Abuse you
    That’s it. There is no fourth alternative! Obviously, this doesn’t apply to your blood relatives, women whom you have to deal with in your professional life, or even personal interactions over the internet. But if you’re seeing a woman face to face on a regular basis in your personal life, the above three options are the only ones that exist! Period!

    I’ve read that a lot from the incel/MGTOW crowd, but I’m surprised men successful with women can have such a biased vision of women, like they are nothing but evil, naughty creatures only good for sex. Oh, except our sisters and mothers, obviously. Come on, try harder, women can be cool buddies too. Even BD admits it (as long as they are ugly).

    I have a feeling you dont have a lot of women in your life sexually and that perhaps what would help you is to rethink your priorities. What if you tried first to use your time to work on getting new partner(s) and then use the rest of your time to hang out with this platonic friend? Once you start getting results I am pretty sure you will just say you dont have time for platonic girls anymore.

    Currently ? Yeah, you’re right. But she’s been a friend for a long time now. So, yes, when you spend a lot of time having sex or just dating, you spend less time with your friends. Yet she never disappeared from my life, no more than most of my male buddies. You all seem to imply that a female friend is a woman first, then a friend. But she’s a friend that happens to be a woman.

  82. I know this might be hard to understand for some people here but there are some of us who like to do something selfless once in a while

    This is masochism, or pathological altruism. As Ayn Rand said, it is the philosophy of cannibals.

    Both selfishness and non-kin altruism are naturally evolved behaviors. They’re not pathological. And if you call this a naturalistic fallacy, the door swings both ways and would also dismiss selfishness as a value. No one needs to be ashamed of having altruistic urges.

    Define “pathological”. If you define it from what’s “natural”, then both sefishness and altruism toward non-kin will have to be taken or rejected, if only in a given amount. As usual, absolute statements that don’t acknowledge degrees don’t survive scrutiny.

  83. I’m being serious. Did you smoke something or take something before typing that comment?

    wonder if you refer to writing style or content.

    Never seen women rush into marriage with an orbiter they have rejected for years once their attractiveness has lapsed?
    I see it regularly.
    (I didn’t mean one should orbit with that hope, hope it wasn’t understood that way. I meant it happens.)

  84. An adult woman in your personal life, whom you’re not related to,  can do only three things with you:1. Have sex with you2. Ignore you3. Abuse you

    Those are definitely the observations of sexually frustrated outcome dependent guys for sure. Funny that JOTB would say something like that, but he gets pissy sometimes, especially with posts like this. So I’m not too surprised. JOTB to me sounds very outcome dependent. And no chick can abuse a guy if the guy does not let her. Even if you are a boy and your mom is hitting you or something, you can (and should) hit back. But of course, in this day and age most guys do not mind being abused by chicks, and even like it.

    I’m surprised men successful with women can have such a biased vision of women, like they are nothing but evil, naughty creatures only good for sex.

    Only MGTOW do not even think they are good for sex, which makes them closet homos. I believe they are good for sex and company, but not much else. Its not as negative a view as most would believe. Chicks feel the exact same about guys. Only we’ve been systematically taught for millennia that there is no such thing as treating men like objects. Which I don’t really care about, its just an observation of mine which is likely accurate.

    Oh, except our sisters and mothers, obviously. 

    Which reveals exactly what MGTOW want in a chick: A replacement for their mommy. Which is why the majority of them are dateless their entire lives.

    women can be cool buddies too. Even BD admits it (as long as they are ugly).

    Even if they are attractive even. What matters is if you want to have sex or not. I know attractive chicks that do drugs and party all the time and are hardly sober. And they live like degenerates. Are they attractive? Yes. Would I want to have sex with them? No, cuz I know EXACTLY what would happen. They would catch feelings, I wouldn’t, then I would get a whole bunch of drama, a rape charge, or something stupid like that. Am I gonna hang out with them? Yes. Why? Social circle game. If knowing them opens up whole worlds of other chicks I can have sex with who are not degenerates, I’m good with just platonically hanging out with them.

    BD is talking about chicks you hang out with like a gf of FB and are attracted and want to have sex, but you aren’t having sex. That, to me is a complete waste of time and energy. Which is easily solved btw; just make moves on her next time you hang out. If she refuses, then either drop her like a bad habit or continue to hang out with her for social circle reasons.

  85. BD is talking about chicks you hang out with like a gf of FB and are attracted and want to have sex, but you aren’t having sex. That, to me is a complete waste of time and energy. Which is easily solved btw; just make moves on her next time you hang out. If she refuses, then either drop her like a bad habit or continue to hang out with her for social circle reasons.

    Totally agree on that. Now, BD extends it to women you are not attracted to and don’t want to have sex to, but would consent to it if she insisted. And that’s where I disagree with him.

  86. BD extends it to women you are not attracted to and don’t want to have sex to, but would consent to it if she insisted. And that’s where I disagree with him.

    Well BD has a really high sex drive, so there’s some bias about that. If I’m hanging out with a chick I don’t care about having sex with it doesn’t bother me, but it would drive someone like BD crazy.

  87. I’ve read that a lot from the incel/MGTOW crowd,

    Really? I was under the impression that the MGTOWs demand lifetime virginity from all their members because they think every sex act, by definition, always leads to a false rape accusation by some blue haired pig.

    but I’m surprised men successful with women can have such a biased vision of women, like they are nothing but evil, naughty creatures

    I have never said this. I said that a woman who refuses to have sex with you, but still insists on hanging out with you in a platonic capacity, is an abuser, and therefore, an “evil, naughty creature,” yes. But there are lots and lots of women who are certainly not like that in the slightest.

    only good for sex.

    Once again, I have NEVER said this!

    It MUST start with sex, but it doesn’t have to end there. It’s fine if it does end there, in which case, she is just a fuck buddy. But you can also use the sex as a foundation for other things, such as friendship (friends with benefits), or even a serious relationship, love, and children (MLTR, OLTR). I currently have a girlfriend whom I’m in a very serious (open) relationship with. And yes, we very much love each other. How many MGTOWs have said that?

    My point was that all male/female interaction must begin with sex in order for it to not be an abusive interaction. She must be having sex with you in order to avoid abusing you (assuming she wants you in her life). But if she is having sex with you, then the sky is the limit. It certainly doesn’t have to be just sex. It can be lots more, including love and having babies.

    Oh, except our sisters and mothers, obviously.

    Well yeah. Since I’m not in favor of incest OR cutting out your female family members from your life, obviously having a platonic relationship with your female blood relatives (including your daughters) is okay. Duh!

    Come on, try harder, women can be cool buddies too.

    Yes. Cool buddies who you have sex with. That’s called friends with benefits, which I completely support! But women weren’t made to be platonic buddies like other men. That’s not their nature or ours. Friendship is predicated upon mutual respect. If a woman isn’t sexually attracted to you, she doesn’t respect you, and therefore, can’t be your friend. Respect and sexual attraction are inextricably linked within the female DNA (as it pertains to men).

     

     

     

  88. Those are definitely the observations of sexually frustrated outcome dependent guys for sure. Funny that JOTB would say something like that, but he gets pissy sometimes, especially with posts like this.

    There is nothing “sexually frustrated” about the observation that it is abusive for a woman to refuse to acknowledge your manhood and treat you like a woman, a gay friend, or a gender neutral dummy. Men and women weren’t made for platonic interaction. That’s androgynous crap! Platonic friendship is what the same sex is for.

    I’m not sexually frustrated, but I would be if I couldn’t have sex with my female friends!

    Friendship requires mutual understanding. A man can understand another man just by virtue of being a man himself. But you don’t see a woman’s true soul until you’ve seen her cum face, and vice versa. Mutual understanding and friendship between the two genders is only possible if it rests upon a sexual foundation, thus distinguishing women from men.

    So I’m not too surprised. JOTB to me sounds very outcome dependent.

    Because I insist on having sex with every female in my personal life? Well….yeah. Otherwise, she’s just a distant acquaintance. It’s impossible to have that mutual connection that creates a friendship with a woman if there is no sex involved, unlike with another man whom you can easily connect with due to the fact that you’re both men.

    And no chick can abuse a guy if the guy does not let her.

    Correct. So if a woman refuses to have sex with me, I won’t let her abuse me by being in my life.

    in this day and age most guys do not mind being abused by chicks, and even like it.

    What scares me the most is the millennials, just casually hanging out with women as if those women are men. And then, these faggots don’t know how to approach a woman, or think that all seduction is sexual harassment! It’s because they’ve de-sexualized women and redefined them as “men with pussies.” So of course they don’t know how to seduce them if they are proceeding from the platonic friendship model and treating women like “buddies.”

    Androgynous crap! And you are sadly supporting it!

    Well BD has a really high sex drive, so there’s some bias about that. If I’m hanging out with a chick I don’t care about having sex with it doesn’t bother me, but it would drive someone like BD crazy.

    See? Now you’re getting it! Is he outcome dependent too?

     

     

  89. If a woman isn’t sexually attracted to you, she doesn’t respect you, and therefore, can’t be your friend. Respect and sexual attraction are inextricably linked within the female DNA (as it pertains to men).

    JOTB, how exactly have you arrived at this conclusion, please?

  90. I have never had a female platonic friend, that I hung out with face to face ever. I just don’t think that is healthy at all in most cases, unless you don’t care for her romantically.

    That’s why I define Friend Zone differently though. If you are in the FZ, to me that means, you have romantic feelings for a girl. If you just want to fuck her ONLY, then that is not a real FZ situation for me because you don’t really care for her at all.

    I also like to see this differently what BD said here:

    If you’re regularly spending time with a super hot married woman you’d love to have sex with and can’t because she’s married, that’s fucking friend zone. You want to fuck her and you can’t. That’s friend zone. The reason why you can’t fuck her isn’t relevant; you want to and she won’t let you.)

     

    I have slept with married women my whole life. I have never felt romantically hooked to them, just for that one reason: they were married, so I never felt hooked. But sexually, yes I wanted to fuck them. Whether it was at work, where you can’t escape her, or at group sessions with other friends it didn’t matter. My philosophy is, as long as you want sex from her ONLY, do what you want, it’s not FZ, it’s a challenge. I was lucky enough to have never spend too much time with them to reach my goal (sex), but if I had to I would probably try to spend time until I get to bed her. From my experience women in relationships WILL fuck you, as long as you keep pushing, assuming she is sexually attracted to you as well. Sooner or later she will fuck you. It might be tougher with single women though, because they have more options.

    However stay away, if you like her, romantically, that’s when the real shit starts. I have always cut contact to women, I couldn’t get, when I felt I liked them because that is real FZ, that can and will cause oneitis. A girl you want to fuck only, never causes oneitis That’s my defense mechanism.

  91. If a woman isn’t sexually attracted to you, she doesn’t respect you, and therefore, can’t be your friend. Respect and sexual attraction are inextricably linked within the female DNA (as it pertains to men).

    JOTB, how exactly have you arrived at this conclusion, please?

    Experience? I agree with him, not based on logic but based on observation.

  92. Two observations.

    1. Saying that sexuality defines all male/female interaction is something I really have a hard time accepting.  JOTBs position of “either we fuck or she’s out of my life” and “platonic is for same-sex friends” seems harsh to me.  I’m sure we all have this (subconscious) reaction when first meeting a woman, and do decide in a split second “will/won’t fuck” (given the chance).  However, as well as saying “But you don’t see a woman’s true soul until you’ve seen her cum face, and vice versa.” one could argue that you only see a man’s true face in a fight.  We probably also all have this (subconscious) reaction when first meeting a guy: “could/couldn’t win from him in a fight”.  That doesn’t mean we actually have to fight every guy we meet.  Although I do agree that if you’re constantly surrounded by men who would (easily) beat you in a fight, you might get anxious and have a decrease in your happiness.  I know BD makes a strict distinction between “could fuck” and “actually fucked” and I suppose JOTB is of the same opinion.  I’m not so sure.

    2. In relation to the above point, some men are  in a “position of power” over (young) women.  Think “sports coach” or “teacher” – things like that.  I am too (without going into detail) and I have been very surprised by the amount of Type 2 and 3 VYW.  In fact, it happens quite often that they make a move and try to “seduce” me.  One could argue that not fucking them is just caving in to SP, but this would cause quite a mess (even if I limit myself to the oldest ones who already have a place of their own etc.)  I must say I like the feeling of “validation”, but I wonder what your opinion is about this.  After all, although I could fuck them, I’m not actually doing it.  So would you argue that an alpha 2.0 could never be happy as a teacher, sports coach, band conductor, etc.?

  93. I’m sure we all have this (subconscious) reaction when first meeting a woman, and do decide in a split second “will/won’t fuck” (given the chance).  However, as well as saying “But you don’t see a woman’s true soul until you’ve seen her cum face, and vice versa.” one could argue that you only see a man’s true face in a fight.  We probably also all have this (subconscious) reaction when first meeting a guy: “could/couldn’t win from him in a fight”.  That doesn’t mean we actually have to fight every guy we meet.

    That’s actually a pretty clever argument. Directly cuts to a “Game Theory”-like summary of the fundamental man-woman and man-man interactions. Not sure it makes me agree, but it’s a good point.

  94. 1. Saying that sexuality defines all male/female interaction is something I really have a hard time accepting.

    So let me guess. You’re in friend zone.

    JOTBs position of “either we fuck or she’s out of my life”

    Out of my personal life, not my professional life, as I acknowledged above. This exposes the utter non-sequitur absurdity of your coach/teacher analogy.

    and “platonic is for same-sex friends” seems harsh to me.

    It doesn’t “seem” harsh. It IS harsh, as most truths are.

    However, as well as saying “But you don’t see a woman’s true soul until you’ve seen her cum face, and vice versa.” one could argue that you only see a man’s true face in a fight.

    Pure alpha 1.0 horseshit! Two men can relate to one another on a deep and profound level just by virtue of the fact that they’re both men. No need for destructive caveman nonsense. Leave such uncivilized barbarism to the working classes.

    We probably also all have this (subconscious) reaction when first meeting a guy: “could/couldn’t win from him in a fight”.

    HAHA! I have NEVER had this conscious or subconscious reaction to a man EVER, unless he was threatening me or showing some uncivilized (read: alpha 1.0) tendencies! I do not think of physical violence at all. It is naturally destructive, except in self defense.

    Civilized people don’t physically fight each other. We sue each other (credit: Bill Maher).

    Take that primitive bronze age shit to third world shitholes, or to the lower socio-economic classes, where it belongs.

    That doesn’t mean we actually have to fight every guy we meet.

    Well, if you have these alpha 1.0 caveman desires, I’m glad you can at least control them.

    Although I do agree that if you’re constantly surrounded by men who would (easily) beat you in a fight, you might get anxious and have a decrease in your happiness.

    Wrong! I don’t categorize men that way. Never have. Am I constantly surrounded by men who could easily beat me in a fight? My honest answer is: I don’t have the first clue, because I have never evaluated another man in such a primitive “working class” way.

    But let’s say, for the sake of argument, that yes, I am surrounded by men who could easily kick my ass! I’m the weakest and most unskilled fighter among them. Why would that make me anxious or unhappy? Are you suggesting I should be expecting a fight? If not, then what the fuck are we even talking about? Why become anxious or unhappy over a fictional hypothetical that will never happen? If yes, then what the fuck am I doing hanging out with men who want to beat me up?

    You make no sense. I don’t see other men as my competition (except in the professional sphere, where there is no prospect for violence). In the personal sphere, “competition” belongs only to people who believe in monogamy. I don’t. So I don’t compete (violently or non-violently) with men over women. I share my women with other men, and they share their women with me (I guess it’s an upper class thing, so don’t ask).

    If certain men believe in monogamy, I don’t compete with them. I just ignore them, let them win the public competition, and then have sex with their female trophy behind their backs, while they pay for her dinner. My attitude towards other men is – share and cooperate, or ignore and do my own thing unbeknownst to them. There’s no violence, or even competition here, unless I’m playing basketball with a male friend, or something.

    Let the alpha 1.0s beat their chests and get all the public glory, while I get all their private spoils after they “win!”

    I know BD makes a strict distinction between “could fuck” and “actually fucked” and I suppose JOTB is of the same opinion.  I’m not so sure.

    I’m not sure what this means. If you actually fucked a woman, then you’re not in friend zone. If you could fuck her, but she won’t let you, you’re in friend zone and you need to cut your losses and move on.

    2. In relation to the above point, some men are  in a “position of power” over (young) women.  Think “sports coach” or “teacher” – things like that.

    That’s your professional life, not your personal life. Your professional life must be completely platonic. Business and pleasure don’t mix. Duh!

    I am too (without going into detail) and I have been very surprised by the amount of Type 2 and 3 VYW.  In fact, it happens quite often that they make a move and try to “seduce” me.

    They want to blackmail you with a rape charge or a harassment charge. Their attitude is, “If I fuck him, he’ll have to give me an A, or I’ll make sure he loses his job, or even goes to prison.” Don’t fall for it. They want to have you by the balls so they can #metoo your ass!

    One could argue that not fucking them is just caving in to SP,

    Facepalm! Fucking your students violates school rules, can get you fired, and even cause you to lose your teaching license, thus ruining your entire career. Restraining yourself and not falling into the trap set for you by gold digging cunts isn’t SP. It’s just smart.

    I must say I like the feeling of “validation”, but I wonder what your opinion is about this.

    If you fuck a woman at work, she has you by the balls for the rest of your life and can completely destroy you at literally any time, and then get a book deal, go on Oprah, and tell the story of how she “risked it all” to fight her rapist patriarchal teacher! Are you really this blind? They’re like the mermaids in Peter Pan. They’re only trying to drown you.

    After all, although I could fuck them, I’m not actually doing it.

    Friend zone pertains only to your personal life, not your professional life. If you’re not hanging out with these girls off the clock, you’re not friends; just employee and customer.

    So would you argue that an alpha 2.0 could never be happy as a teacher, sports coach, band conductor, etc.?

    Why not? Just fuck as many women as you can in your personal life, and keep it in your pants at work! Don’t ever fuck your employees, employers, co-workers, students, or customers! For fuck sake dude, this isn’t a contradiction.

    We all have to deal with women professionally. It’s only when they want us to deal with them personally, while refusing to have sex with us, that it becomes abusive. And if a fucking student is hitting on her teacher, you know you’re dealing with jail bait, or a blackmail situation.

    When I was 16, my (at the time) girlfriend’s 13 year old sister (whom I also fucked) bragged to me about how she fucked her math teacher just to get an A in his class. She was positively laughing about it and how she would put him in prison if he gave her anything less than an A+. No dude, it’s not SP to resist seductive students. It’s precisely SP not to. Even if they’re 18 and legal, it’s against college rules and will destroy you professionally. Keep business and pleasure completely separate!

    And don’t give them the opportunity to spin yet another bullshit PC narrative about “the patriarchy” so they can get millions of dollars!

     

     

     

  95. My goodness JOTB, you read too much MGTOW crap.

    The situation I described is not my professional situation.  I have very few women I work with, and I keep “professional distance”.  The situation is in the realm of hobby/volunteer work.

    You have a very trolly way of writing, and since that riles me up (and therefore decreases my happiness), I’ll stop responding here.

    You’d (obviously) be free to fuck my wife or my girlfriend.  If you are as acidic in real life as you are in your writing, I can’t imagine them wanting to.  But hey, their choice – as long as they take a good hot shower before coming back to me.

  96. My goodness JOTB, you read too much MGTOW crap.

    What are you taking about? I’ve hardly ever read “MGTOW crap.” Nothing I said was in any way inspired by MGTOW. Any similarity between my view and theirs is purely coincidental and unknown to me. This is a meaningless and non-specific accusation which doesn’t tell me what you even disagree with! It’s just generic slander! How about addressing the points that you thought were wrong?

    The situation I described is not my professional situation.  I have very few women I work with, and I keep “professional distance”.  The situation is in the realm of hobby/volunteer work.

    Then you had no business telling me that you are in a position of “power” over them. If you’re just a volunteer hobbyist, you have no “power” over these women. In which case, you can fuck them. What’s wrong with that?

    You have a very trolly way of writing,

    In what way? The word “troll” has multiple definitions (being off topic, spamming, asking for money, pretending to believe in something when you in fact don’t just to get a reaction, etc…). Which definition are you talking about? Your accusation is meaningless as it stands.

    and since that riles me up (and therefore decreases my happiness),

    Pathetic. You might want to work on developing a thicker skin!

    I’ll stop responding here.

    At least be clearer with your accusations. Your slander about me reading “MGTOW crap” is objectively false! Accusing me of being a troll is equally non-specific and meaningless.

    Critique my arguments or say nothing at all!

    You’d (obviously) be free to fuck my wife or my girlfriend.  If you are as acidic in real life as you are in your writing, I can’t imagine them wanting to.

    This isn’t a blog for castrated men or marshmellowy betas. And yes, women like hardness, as much as some may deny it and say they want a nice guy.

    But hey, their choice – as long as they take a good hot shower before coming back to me.

    LOL! In other words, you have zero counter-arguments for anything I said. Good to know.

     

     

     

  97. Sigh.  One more time then.

    They want to blackmail you with a rape charge or a harassment charge. Their attitude is, “If I fuck him, he’ll have to give me an A, or I’ll make sure he loses his job, or even goes to prison.” Don’t fall for it. They want to have you by the balls so they can #metoo your ass!

    That sounds like scared MGTOW crap to me.

    Then you had no business telling me that you are in a position of “power” over them. If you’re just a volunteer hobbyist, you have no “power” over these women.

    You have a very limited view of “power”.  If Larry Nassar had been a volunteer in some local hobbyist gymnast club, do you think everyone would have said “Oh he wasn’t getting paid for this, it’s all good.”

    What I  mean by “trolly writing” in this case is that you write in a deliberately taunting and provocative style while safely behind your keyboard, pretending to be a bigger man than you really are.  I know you can’t be like this in real life, because you said you are not afraid of people strong enough to shut you up physically.  This would be quite a regular occurrence if you behaved like such an ass in front of real people.  Saying “civilized people sue” to me sounds like “civilized people run to mommy”.

    The fact that I’d expect my women to shower after sex with someone else has nothing to do with counter-arguments to you – where did you get that idea?  It’s just common courtesy.

    Women do enjoy “hardness”.  If you can get your women all dreamy-eyed and wet by telling them the hot stories about how you handed this guy his ass on some online forum, good for you.

    I prefer being around hot girls I’m not fucking over engaging in a destructive online “discussion” with a troll.  I guess I could work on the thickness on my skin, but I don’t see the point.  You “avoid” the friendzone by avoiding women you can’t fuck; I “avoid” the trollzone by avoiding assholes I can’t fight.

  98. That sounds like scared MGTOW crap to me.

    Then you are naïve. Have you even heard of the #metoo movement? Plenty of women act in the malicious way I described, especially gold diggers. These are just facts. The problem with MGTOWs is that they generalize this to all women and retreat like scared little boys instead of learning how to exercise discernment.

    You have a very limited view of “power”.

    No. Your view of “power” is inherently Marxist. If you define power as “social influence” than no one is equal. If no one is equal, then all sex is rape, just like the radical feminists say. These feminists say that a male billionaire should only be allowed to fuck female billionaires, because fucking poorer women creates a “power imbalance” in terms of “social influence,” and is therefore rape by default.

    This rather spacious concept of “uneven power” (even if the uneven power is adjacent to the woman and not directly effecting her) leads to stripping individual adults of their free agency, thus infantilizing them in an effort to protect the fictional “collective abstraction.”

    If Larry Nassar had been a volunteer in some local hobbyist gymnast club, do you think everyone would have said “Oh he wasn’t getting paid for this, it’s all good.”

    Who?

    Ok, I googled him. As I understand it, he was a child molester who had a professional job and was dealing with kids, not adults. But even if he would have been dealing with adults, the determinative factor wouldn’t be him getting paid. It would be his students (who paid for, and invested in, the class) being a captive audience.

    If you’re just playing soft ball for fun, you can leave if you don’t like something. But if it’s a an academic thing that you (as a student) paid for, it’s not so easy to just leave or quit school. Professional situations (even as a student, or customer) are harder to extricate from than just some voluntary fun in your personal life. Hence, you, as a coach, don’t have any power if everyone is just engaging in a voluntary hobby with no money or resources invested. Let the adult women make their own choices. You have no “power” as such.

    As for Larry Nassar’s crimes, anyone has the “power” to commit a crime. If that’s how you view “power imbalance,” then I don’t see how you disagree with the cultural Marxist notion that all sex is rape because of “potential power abuses” that we are all technically capable of, regardless of the situation.

    What I  mean by “trolly writing” in this case is that you write in a deliberately taunting and provocative style

    That’s just how I am. Ask anyone here.

    while safely behind your keyboard,

    Is this unwise? Would it be wiser for me to put myself in physical danger?

    pretending to be a bigger man than you really are.

    Why pretending? You are implying that I’m attempting to deceive you and am not a true believer in my own personality. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    I know you can’t be like this in real life, because you said you are not afraid of people strong enough to shut you up physically.  This would be quite a regular occurrence if you behaved like such an ass in front of real people.

    This is just false, but it reveals that the two of us come from radically different cultures! Maybe I have always surrounded myself with a more “polished” crowd, or I’ve just become an expert in avoiding alpha 1.0 cavemen, but, in my adult life, I have never felt physically threatened by my male friends if I were to verbally rip on them. In fact, my male friends (what few I have) regularly rip on each other, which, if it leads to anger, provokes passionate debates, not violence.

    So yes, I can be like this in real life and not get beaten up, because I don’t hang out with alpha 1.0s or men from the lower classes. We don’t do violence. We talk.  

    Saying “civilized people sue” to me sounds like “civilized people run to mommy”.

    Spoken like a true alpha 1.0. What’s better? Putting the man in the hospital? Again, we come from radically different walks of life.

    Women do enjoy “hardness”.  If you can get your women all dreamy-eyed and wet by telling them the hot stories about how you handed this guy his ass on some online forum, good for you.

    LOL! For fuck sake dude, I was talking about my general personality of psychological dominance, which makes physical dominance unnecessary.

    Just like I would say that a rapist probably can’t get laid consensually, I’d say that a physically dominant person is psychologically insecure, and therefore, has to resort to brute force to get his way, because he has no skills of persuasion. By contrast, a psychologically dominant persuader laughs at the psychologically impotent physical aggressor and pities his lack of ability to control things without his fists.

    But again, I guess in your world of alpha 1.0s, they’d just kick my ass and put me in the hospital if I were to challenge them verbally. Well then, thank god I don’t hang out with such lower class people, because otherwise, you’d be right –  I’d have to censor my true personality in public.

    I prefer being around hot girls I’m not fucking over engaging in a destructive online “discussion” with a troll.

    First of all, I don’t see this discussion as destructive. It’s actually quite insightful (definitely to at least a few readers).

    Second of all, if you want to see me as a “troll,” I guess there’s nothing I can do.

    Third of all, I believe that being around hot girls you’re not fucking is very destructive and ultimately corrosive to your self esteem as a man, as distinguished from having an intellectual discussion about different cultural attitudes and the nature of attraction. But, to each, his own, I guess.

    I “avoid” the trollzone by avoiding assholes I can’t fight.

    Based on my cultural, upper middle class background, you essentially admitting that you have a “physical violence consciousness” that is constant within your mind in relation to other men strikes me as uncivilized and savage, but very hot to conservative women. There are definitely those types of “old school” women out there. The most extreme ones send marriage proposals to death row inmates.

    So you wouldn’t avoid me if you could physically fight me? If you could, I’d say, “no thanks” and probably file you under the “alpha male 1.0 who has violence on the brain as a psychological constant” category and avoid you myself.

    Different strokes, I suppose. And radically different cultural backgrounds. Nevertheless, this has been interesting to discuss.

     

      

     

  99. JOTB, your last post was in a much more balanced tone, and had some insightful remarks.  Thanks for that.  The idea of “everyone is inherently unequal” (even when disregarding “professional power”) is something I’d have to ponder about.  I hope my conclusion will be that it’s false, because otherwise we’d have to defend some kind of “caste” system, in which you’re only allowed to fuck within your caste.  (Being “hot” and fucking someone who’s not, would then also be an abuse of some kind of power).

    I’m struggling to read Das Kapital at the moment, but it’s just so mind-numbingly boring.  For the last 100 pages, he’s been trying to explain to me that value is added by putting work into something.  If you’re saying he’ll get to sex later on in the book, I might pick it up and give it another go 🙂

    Regarding our different cultural background, I assume from your words that you were raised in a “sticks and stones…” paradigm.  I try to raise my kids in a different way.  If you poke a bear with a stick long enough, he’ll probably maul you.  You can’t blame the bear for it.  It’s what bears do.  Similarly, my kids will run into people who will respond with violence when they treat them the wrong way.  Sure, my kids could sneer about their lack of civilization while they are recovering from the beating they received, but I’d rather teach them some degree of “reading” people.

    You mention that your friends don’t threaten you physically when you rip on them.  Of course not, that’s why you’re friends.

    I personally don’t seem to suffer much from being around hot girls (to bring this back on topic), but maybe that’s because my sex drive is very low nowadays, and I get as much as I desire already.  I will gladly admit that this was (very) different in the past, when I was a frustrated twenty-something.

    Finally, I see you use the “caveman” metaphor a lot (in your case, describing men who resort to their fists to establish a picking order).  I have noticed that many people (opposed to an open lifestyle) use that exact term for “men who can’t keep their dick in their pants” and “can’t control their urges”.  Not a reproach – just something I noticed.

     

  100. The idea of “everyone is inherently unequal” (even when disregarding “professional power”) is something I’d have to ponder about.  I hope my conclusion will be that it’s false, because otherwise we’d have to defend some kind of “caste” system, in which you’re only allowed to fuck within your caste.  (Being “hot” and fucking someone who’s not, would then also be an abuse of some kind of power).

    Everyone is indeed inherently unequal in terms of their relation to others (not to be confused with equal treatment under the law). So my assertion isn’t false. But you’re wrong when you say that we would have to defend a sexual caste system if it’s true. We wouldn’t. Because being inherently unequal doesn’t mean that the stronger will automatically oppress the weaker. That’s Marxist trash. That’s why feminists say that all sex is rape. It’s not.

    The stronger can fall in love with the weaker, or just be a decent human being, and therefore, not abuse the weaker. See, this is where trust and intimacy come in, which Marxists want to abolish because it’s an X factor that can’t be controlled or give them default peace of mind. Basically, they want to abolish everything beautiful about humanity by simply designating it as inherently untrustworthy or “oppressive.”

    Your view of power is also too broad (another symptom of Marxist brainwashing). A so called “power differential” so broad that sex cannot be allowed to happen (no matter how seemingly consensual) can only exist in the form of direct economic control over the weaker (a boss fucking their professional subordinate).

    But a man can have more power than a woman in an adjacent capacity (not directly over her) and still have sex with her without “oppressing her.” Could he choose to oppress her with his superior wealth, or use his money to hire a hit man to assassinate her? Sure. But anyone can choose to commit a crime. She can technically smother him in his sleep. Does that mean she’s raping him every time they have sex?

    Also, most men are physically stronger than women. Does this mean that hitting the gym and becoming physically attractive automatically disqualifies you from sex because technically you can kill her more easily than she can kill you? This is Marxist nonsense! Pure nonsense.

    These “power imbalances” (which exist between literally everyone) mean nothing, because people are expected to obey the law, and intimacy requires a certain level of trust, and therefore, risk. It is not the job of the government to assess the acceptability of the risk for you because you’re not a child. But feminists and Marxists insist that you are a child and that “power imbalances” mean everything. Well if they mean everything, then trust and intimacy (everything beautiful about humanity) are unacceptable risks and all sex is rape! But this is the philosophy of weak losers.

    I’m struggling to read Das Kapital at the moment,

    Oh no! Why are you reading that filth?

    but it’s just so mind-numbingly boring.

    Yes it is. Marx was distracted by his wife who wanted him to feed the family. Instead, his first 4 children starved to death because he was busy writing his retarded books.

    For the last 100 pages, he’s been trying to explain to me that value is added by putting work into something.  If you’re saying he’ll get to sex later on in the book, I might pick it up and give it another go

    Nope, he doesn’t, except to say that he believes that marriage will fade away once sex is divorced from women’s need to eat by allowing women to work. On that, he was right. He didn’t enjoy giving his wife (or his poor kids) anything to eat.

    Regarding our different cultural background, I assume from your words that you were raised in a “sticks and stones…” paradigm.

    Yes. I’ve always called that Free Speech. I’ve always been a Free Speech absolutist. I am a libertarian after all.

    I try to raise my kids in a different way.  If you poke a bear with a stick long enough, he’ll probably maul you.  You can’t blame the bear for it.  It’s what bears do.  Similarly, my kids will run into people who will respond with violence when they treat them the wrong way.  Sure, my kids could sneer about their lack of civilization while they are recovering from the beating they received, but I’d rather teach them some degree of “reading” people.

    Okay, first we must distinguish between starting a fight and defending yourself from a non-consensual assault. What I was sneering at was the former, not the latter. I’m against the concept of starting physical fights because of other people’s words. Like you said, sticks and stones. But if someone is physically threatening you, then of course you must defend yourself. If someone hits you, you should definitely hit back. If someone starts a fight with you, you should definitely finish it. Just never start one over words. Defend yourself only.

    Second, we must distinguish between kids and adults. Kids aren’t civilized. They’re not meant to be. They’re kids. I engaged in physical fighting when I was a kid (in self defense) and the bullies stopped picking on me after I stood up for myself and beat a couple of them bloody. Of course I recommend that kids (and adults) learn to defend themselves. I only hold people in contempt who start physical fights because of the other person’s words. Again, Free Speech absolutism.

    I personally don’t seem to suffer much from being around hot girls (to bring this back on topic), but maybe that’s because my sex drive is very low nowadays, and I get as much as I desire already.  I will gladly admit that this was (very) different in the past, when I was a frustrated twenty-something.

    Bingo! I’m a 30 something, but my sex drive is as high as ever.

    Finally, I see you use the “caveman” metaphor a lot (in your case, describing men who resort to their fists to establish a picking order).  I have noticed that many people (opposed to an open lifestyle) use that exact term for “men who can’t keep their dick in their pants” and “can’t control their urges”.  Not a reproach – just something I noticed.

    HAHA! Guilty as charged. I can’t keep it in my pants and I’m very proud of that fact! I don’t want to keep it in my pants. I love the warmth of vaginas too much and my penis requires me to dip it into those healing waters on a regular basis. 🙂

     

     

  101. (Being “hot” and fucking someone who’s not, would then also be an abuse of some kind of power).

    This is the problem with the fucked up social justice conception of “power.” In reality, you only have power over someone if you control them legally, physically, or financially.

    Legally – No private citizen is allowed to legally control another private citizen, except underage minors who are under the legal authority of their parents.

    Physically – Controlling someone physically is a crime.

    Financially – Direct financial control over a woman (read: being her boss) may indeed be a form of power which may inhibit the woman’s free will in the sense that she is pressured to say yes because of his control over her money, job, or entire career, thus making her consent not genuine.

    However, politically correct feminists also talk about “social power,” which should only be a factor when dealing with children, not other adults. In your example, an attractive man with high social status who fucks a morbidly obese whale has superior “social power.”

    But what consequence does that entail? That she may be too emotionally weak to resist him, thus making him a rapist? This implies that she needs to be saved from her own self. Well I’m sorry, but the most important thing separating children from adults is that adults are expected to take responsibility for their own emotional weaknesses and use the failures based on those weaknesses as motivation to purge those weaknesses, thus enabling spiritual growth.

    If a woman should be forgiven her own emotional weaknesses (and therefore coddled, like a child), she will never gain any psychological strength or respect from men, thus turning misogyny into a self-fulfilling prophecy, as feminists turn women into the sexist stereotype of weak damsels in distress who should be protected from their own tears and weaknesses by big strong men with badges.

    If an ugly woman is too weak and pathetic to resist me, and I sleep with her, she, as an adult, must be forced to take ownership of her own pathetic state. Shielding her from personal responsibility by claiming that my superior social status is a form of abusive power that is “emotionally forcing her” to sleep with me because she is just “too weak to resist,” requires us to go back to ancient Roman law where women were legally recognized as “perpetual minors.”

    Misogynists want this, whereas feminists want women to be adults only in reference to rights, but pathetic children in reference to responsibilities.

    As for potentially negative social stigma if the lower status woman refuses to have sex with me, well, sometimes public ridicule is the price to pay for your conscience. Men and women greater than her have been put to death for their conscience. I think the fragile bitch can take a little teasing.

    Further, social stigma accomplishes one of two things: Either it forces you to double down, and therefore make your beliefs even stronger, which is a favor to you, or it will force you to crumble and conform, which means your convictions weren’t that strong to begin with, so they don’t deserve respect anyway!

    This is why the feminist narrative of “social power as rape” is flawed and incorrect!

     

  102. I’ve made a lot of mistakes in my life but somehow I’ve never managed to get into the Friend Zone. If anything, I wonder how other men even get there in the first place. Perhaps due to my naturally aloof personality.

  103. I’ve made a lot of mistakes in my life but somehow I’ve never managed to get into the Friend Zone. If anything, I wonder how other men even get there in the first place. Perhaps due to my naturally aloof personality.

    That is easy: they just hang out with a woman without making a move on her and at some point it just becomes friends like interaction. They might want something else but never do anything nor do they let the woman know in anyway. This may sound ridiculous but the reason why this is such a big problem for so many is that this is actually what many guys do.

    Once you start making moves on women fast then they will split into two categories by the end of date number 2 the latest: those who come to your bed (or at least want to date you) and those who run away, nothing in between.

  104. Somehow, when talking about a woman you want to have sex with, I find the words “but she won’t let you” sort of pathetic. Help me to understand. Why now just say the truth “but she doesn’t want to have sex with you.” It sounds disempowering to me to say she won’t let you, like you’re a little kid asking for a lollipop and your mommy won’t let you have it. Can’t your ego handle the fact that she doesn’t find you attractive enough, or love you, and therefore, she doesn’t want sex with you?

  105. @Margaret: I think it’s a pretty voluntary phrasing. The whole point is that putting up with friendzone is pathetic, hence the “won’t let you” wording, suggesting the guy tolerating it is a (potentially childish as you stated) pussy. If you think people on this website have a problem admitting that girl X or Y doesn’t wanna have sex with them, you haven’t read enough of it.

  106. you write in a deliberately taunting and provocative style while safely behind your keyboard, pretending to be a bigger man than you really are.

    You have effectively described about 95% of all online interactions lol

    but she won’t let you” sort of pathetic. Help me to understand. Why now just say the truth “but she doesn’t want to have sex with you.” It sounds disempowering to me to say she won’t let you, like you’re a little kid asking for a lollipop and your mommy won’t let you have it. 

    Welcome to what Rollo Tomassi calls “The Feminine Imperative.” That’s part of the narrative now, is that chicks must let you have sex with them, even if they want to. It is supposed to sound disempowering for men, because that is the goal of current day women’s movements: To become transform the patriarchal structures they disliked so much into matriarchal ones where they have the advantage.

    It’s because they’ve de-sexualized women and redefined them as “men with pussies.” So of course they don’t know how to seduce them if they are proceeding from the platonic friendship model and treating women like “buddies.”

    This contradicts your attacks on the tradcons’ method of placing chicks on pedestals and treating them as if they were something different. Like tradcons, current day progressives aim to de-sexualize everything.

    And you are sadly supporting it!

    Never said I was supporting it. I’m just aware of it. Look at what BD mentions in the article. Friend zone is where you are buddies with a chick you want to have sex with. Not ones you do not want to have sex with.

    Because I insist on having sex with every female in my personal life? Well….yeah. 

    Yes. This is outcome dependent unless you are putting in obscene numbers. Which, judging from the way you write, I highly doubt you do. You get more emotional than a middle aged woman from Jersey when you discuss things here. To me, and many others who interact on these blogs, I consider that outcome dependent.

    See? Now you’re getting it! Is he outcome dependent too?

    Judging by how he responds to stuff on here, no. High sex drive yes, but not outcome dependent.

     

  107. This contradicts your attacks on the tradcons’ method of placing chicks on pedestals and treating them as if they were something different.

    What? No it doesn’t. Of course you shouldn’t pedestal a woman. But treating her like an androgynous eunuch isn’t good either. Both are beta.

    Like tradcons, current day progressives aim to de-sexualize everything.

    Exactly! They’re Puritans without the Jesus.

    Never said I was supporting it. I’m just aware of it. Look at what BD mentions in the article. Friend zone is where you are buddies with a chick you want to have sex with. Not ones you do not want to have sex with.

    Why would you hang out with a woman whom you don’t even want to have sex with? That’s pretty androgynous, dude. It’s also creepy to me.

    Yes. This is outcome dependent unless you are putting in obscene numbers. Which, judging from the way you write, I highly doubt you do.

    What are you talking about? Currently, I only have one female secondary, or friend (whom I have sex with, of course). I don’t have an obscenely large social circle of females, nor have I ever craved that. The women I currently have sex with (including my secondary and tertiary) I’ve met through my girlfriend’s social circle.

    You get more emotional than a middle aged woman from Jersey when you discuss things here.

    LOL! I call it passionate, but okay!

     

     

  108. BD,

    There is currently an AT&T commercial airing on TV lately, and the backdrop is a man and woman moving in together.  The woman’s voice says something like, “This is for that moment of moving out of the friend zone and moving in together”.

    Definitely thought of you when I heard that.  I could picture you laughing your ass off about it :D.

  109. The woman’s voice says something like, “This is for that moment of moving out of the friend zone and moving in together”.

    Whereupon she’ll be keeping him in the friend zone and then having him pay for everything, more than likely.

    The “betas are the best” narrative is quite hilarious.

  110. what about getting in the friend zone? I have a hard time with doing this, im either getting the girl or usually getting nexted by her. Never in the friend zone. But there is this one model who kind of wants to date me but I want to get in her zone 1 friendship.

     

    why? because shes friends with celebrities and girls with 1 million followers. I want access to those girls. So I can build a social circle around them.

     

    Or just get friendzoned by a hot girl and beuild a social circle off her friends.

     

    thoughts?

  111. I like how you present and argue all the facts in addition to your overall writing style.
    Sometimes, there is a lack of time to read long bits,
    but is brief and succinct, I spent only a couple of minutes to read the entire article.
    It is vital since nobody has enough time to read.

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