first date advice, first online date, online dating advice, meaning of an open relationship, alpha male traits

This is the eighth installment of the book that I never published regarding my history with women and the lessons I learned from it. If you haven’t yet, you should read parts one, two, three, four, five, six, and seven before you read the article below, so you can be up to speed on where the story picks up. Everything below is all 100% true to the best of my memory, journals, and spreadsheet records, though all the names of the people described have been changed.

We last left off in early 2008, when Heather and I broke up. Knowing exactly what I did wrong, I was now poised to start doing this stuff right…

January, 2008

Now free from my brief de facto monogamous relationship with Heather, and having some dating and relationship experience under my belt, as 2008 came around, I felt much more confident about my dating prowess and possibilities. I still was new at all this, and in many respects I still didn’t know what I was doing or what worked, but I was reasonably confident that I felt I had a good grasp of what didn’t work. (Which, as I explain in chapter 10 in Get To Sex Fast, in terms of dating, avoiding what doesn’t work is actually more important than doing what does work. That chapter is probably the most important chapter on dating I’ve ever written.)

I sat down, planned out my year as I always do, and made a battle plan to go on as many first dates as I possibly could. 2007 was very hit-or-miss. I was determined to make 2008 a year of consistent, predicable action in my woman life. I was going to get this figured out once and for all, so I could eventually put my woman life on autopilot and get back my top life priory: business. I figured I was pretty close to getting good with women already (and I was), and felt pretty optimistic.

I found a photography student on Cragislist, got various pictures taken of me (experimenting with new techniques, many of which worked well and ended up in The Ultimate Online Dating Manual), designed a whole new online dating profile from scratch (while keeping the aspects that seemed to work in 2007), and put up profiles on the best dating sites of the time: Match.com, Yahoo Personals, and a new one I tried for the first time, Plenty of Fish.

While taking great care not to repeat the online mistakes I had made last year, I blasted out hundreds of copy-and-paste openers on all three sites, tracking them all carefully with spreadsheets; openers, response rates, first-date rates, sex-to-first date ratios, the works. I obsessively tracked everything. I was determined to construct a repeatable, reliable system that worked every time I executed it.

Slowly but surely, I started racking up first dates. Getting dates online became easier and easier. The more I tried, the more I learned, the more notes I took, and the better I became. I kept adjusting my approach every time to get the maximum odds of a woman saying yes.

Two first dates. Then two more. Then ten. Then twenty. Then thirty. Sometimes I would have four or five first dates in one week. Having two dates in the same evening wasn’t unusual. I would meet up with a woman at 6:00 pm, wrap up the date within an hour or so, walk three blocks over to another fancy bar, and meet the second girl at 7:30 pm. The bar staff at certain bars saw me so often they started treating me like a friendly regular customer, even though I rarely ordered an alcoholic drink (I don’t drink) and always showed up with a different woman. The bar staff was very cool about this and always played along. I even considered asking out or two of the cute female bartenders, banking on my non-stop social proof (I never got around to doing this though).

Lesson Twelve

Always, always track your results. You don’t have to be super anal about it, but you must record some basic numbers about the number of approaches / openers you make and compare them to how many women you actually have sex with, and how long it takes you. It will take you longer to improve without this data.

There were so many women on these dates during this time that I don’t have the time to go through them all, but here are a few highlights:

– The super hot 33 year-old gold blonde digger who talked me into an expensive first date: $80! Unacceptable! This didn’t happen as often anymore, but sometimes I still fell for it.

– The Korean gal with really big boobs. (An Asian with big boobs? Back then, I didn’t know such a thing existed, but they do! It was the only reason I messaged her; otherwise I would have passed, since I wasn’t attracted to Asians back then, but those boobs got me.) I got a blowjob on the first date, but that was as far as I got with her.

– The terrified but cute girl-next door who I never saw again after the first date because I was acting too aloof and Alpha. Dammit!

– By far, the youngest girl I had ever gotten out on a date with up until that point, was a very hot, blonde, 22 year-old amateur model with big Angelina Jolie lips, almost a perfect 10. I was shocked, literally shocked that a girl that young and that good looking actually agreed to go out on a date with me. The date went nowhere (I’m pretty sure she thought I was too overweight), but the fact that I could get someone that young and hot to at least go out on a date with me planted a seed in my mind for some big future successes.

– The really hot Laotian 27 year-old who really liked me on the first date, but then blew me off for the second. Either she was a good actor, or there was another man in the picture. Who knows?

– The 47 year-old psychiatrist who was into younger men (I was a “younger man” at age 36), who I loved to talk psychology with. As you can see, I was dating literally women of all ages. I didn’t care about age. If they were hot, I messaged them. I didn’t care about age at all (though I avoided messaging women under age 23 or so; I figured, incorrectly, that would be too young).

– The high maintenance and bitchy 40 year-old who didn’t like me because I wasn’t 6’3”. (I’m “only” 5’11”, and therefore unacceptable to her.)

– My very first Latina woman! She was cute, though not my type, and my first Hispanic woman, so I wasn’t sure about it, but I decided what the hell and went for it anyway. She was a 30 year-old Mexican woman who worked for a large computer company. She was very nice and very sweet, and we made out on the first date (something I would learn later was a huge mistake). Oh my GOD, can those Latina women kiss! She blew my brains out, right there in the bar. I never saw her again sadly, but I made a mental note about the kissing prowess of Latina’s.

I could go on, but you get the point. So many women, so many interesting experiences. Reminiscing about this time was fun for me.

That being said, while I was good at getting dates, in terms of turning those dates into sex, I was still pretty terrible. I wasn’t nearly as bad as I was in 2007, but still bad. No longer would I allow gold diggers or high-ASD over-33’s to talk me into an endless string of expensive dinner dates that went nowhere (with exceptions though, I still screwed up on this occasionally). Yet, my ratio of women I actually had sex with was just one woman out of ten first dates. Brutal, as Paul Janka used to say.

The good news was that I could always reliably predict that result. If I wanted to have sex with a new woman, I knew that I could schedule ten first dates and always get there. And, she would always be hot. I kept up my rule that I would only message women online who were at least an 8 on the 1 to 10 attractiveness scale (at least for me, since the 1 to 10 scale is 100% subjective). I was also getting better at keeping my first and second dates short and cheap.

The downside was that ten first dates, even inexpensive ones, plus multiple second and third dates that go nowhere is extremely expensive in time, money, and gas. I was busting my ass and getting some results, but not nearly as much as I should have been getting.

A prime example of this was a girl I’ll call Leyla. She was an attractive 23 year-old Azerbaijani girl; very exotic-looking and by far the most “ethnic” woman I had met so far.

She was so excited on our first date that she started touching me before I started touching her. Very interesting. When I tried to sexually escalate later on that date (a mistake, of course) and again on the second date, and again on our third date (oh BD, you dumb mother fucker), she kept resisting. Oh, she wanted to see me again, but she didn’t want to have sex.

Although I had waited way too long, I was ready for this. No woman would ever “Athena” me again. I said, “Let me tell you something. I know from experience that if a woman wants to keep dating a guy, but doesn’t want to have sex with a guy, that means one of three things.” Leyla immediately perked up when I said this. She was legitimately curious about what I was going to say.

I continued, “It means A) she likes the guy, but is not sexually turned on by him. She doesn’t like him in that way.” Her expression didn’t change. I continued, “Or B) she does like the guy that way, but she’s got some kind of sexual hang-up, or sexual issue.” Again, her expression remained unchanged. I continued, “Or C) she does like the guy, she doesn’t have any sexual hang-ups, but she’s dating or fucking another guy already.”

Instantly, Leyla’s face turned bright red. She made a huge, nervous smile and covered her mouth. She was flabbergasted. Finally she said, “Oh my god! How do you know all of this stuff?”

Experience, Darling, experience. That was the last time I ever saw her, which was a good thing.

Athough I didn’t get to sex, I felt pretty good about the fact that I was getting so much experience with women at this point that I could start to understand and accurately predict or explain their behaviors.

It was then I solidified my next lesson:

Lesson Thirteen

If a woman still does not want to be sexual with you in any way by the end of the second (or third) date, even if she seems attracted to you, something is wrong. Either she’s trying to friend zone your ass or her ASD is too high. Drop her and move on to the next woman. She’s just going to waste your time.

Knowing that I was spending a huge amount of time and money using a still inefficient system, I bit the bullet and started looking for dating information at the bookstores and on the internet. Soon, I found Neil “Style” Strauss’s book, The Game. It was about these guys called “pick-up artists.” I was familiar with the term because I had seen the 1987 movie, The Pick-up Artist starring a young Robert Downey Jr. and Molly Ringwald. However, these pick-up artists (or PUA’s) were these weird, young metrosexual dudes who would dress up like rock stars or gay guys, hit on girls at clubs, and use all kinds of odd techniques.

This pick-up crap looked a little cheesey, but it was clear to me that at least some of these guys were doing in bars and clubs what I was doing on the dating sites and on first dates; putting in tons of numbers, experimenting with different techniques, and honing their approaches for maximum odds of success. So, reluctantly, I bought the book. I started reading it and was quickly hooked. I read it cover-to-cover over the course of several days, taking some notes. Once done, I also acquired and read a few Mystery Method books.

It was clear to me that this pick-up artist stuff was geared towards younger, more extroverted men in their twenties who liked to go to loud dance clubs and stay up late into the evening. I was the opposite; an introverted, 36 year-old divorced dad with children and businesses to run. I had no interest in dressing up in feather boas and hitting the dance clubs at 2am on a Thursday evening. I just needed some tweaks in my current system to improve my 1 out of 10 ratio, if possible, which I was confident I could do… somehow.

In some of the PUA materials, a certain forum on the internet was mentioned called Fast Seduction where all of these pick-up artist dudes hung out. In the summer of 2008, I found the forum, and that’s when everything changed…

Part 9 coming soon.

50 Comments on “The Story of My History with Women – Part 8 – Tons and Tons of First Dates

  1. I would like to add something else to BD’s lesson #13 here.

    Over the past couple of years, I’ve had quite a few women (under 33) delay sex until the fourth or fifth (!) date. Out of sheer curiosity I always ended up fucking them. But the problem is, is that when you do eventually fuck them, they become absolute nightmares to continue fucking. They get very demanding very quickly, and it’s just not a pleasant relationship to be in.

    Basically, if you don’t fuck them on the second or third date, the relationship simply has terrible foundations whereby she is calling the shots (by refusing sex when you escalate). It will be difficult to have a drama free relationship with such a woman.

    Whereas women who have sex with you quickly tend to be happy for you to take charge. Miles better.

  2. There was an online girl that i’ve dated out doing romantic stuffs, ie movies, jogging, ”before” we have sex (BIG MISTAKE), after that there was one night i was at the same bed together with her, I felt ”guilty” inside but i couldn’t tell what’s that thing before i found BD’s blog.

    I left, and she was frustrated why i wanted to avoid or replying her on facebook.

    That was almost three years ago…

    Lesson learned: Never do chody romantic stuffs before u have had sex with a girl, it sets you directly into provider box, not ”lover”. Your frame should transit from lover to provider; not provider to lover.

  3. Over the past couple of years, I’ve had quite a few women (under 33) delay sex until the fourth or fifth (!) date.

    You realize that’s 100% your fault. I don’t have that problem.

    Basically, if you don’t fuck them on the second or third date, the relationship simply has terrible foundations whereby she is calling the shots (by refusing sex when you escalate). It will be difficult to have a drama free relationship with such a woman.

    Absolutely. I’ve said the exact same thing before. Starting off a relationship by waiting too long for sex (by the third date is slightly too long, after the third date is way too long) you start a relationship off on her terms, which is how she’ll treat you for the rest of the relationship.

    Instead, you need to dump her at date 2 or date 3 at the latest and go find another woman who is more sexually compatible with you. (And she needs to find a more beta guy who doesn’t mind waiting for sex.)

    Lesson learned: Never do chody romantic stuffs before u have had sex with a girl, it sets you directly into provider box, not ”lover”. Your frame should transit from lover to provider; not provider to lover.

    Yup. A single one-hour first date and then meeting up at your place for talking and sex for the second “date” is all that’s needed for most Western women who are under the age of 33 assuming you do everything correctly. Anything more than that actually reduces the odds of sex and raises the odds of betaization if you do get to sex.

  4. Over the past couple of years, I’ve had quite a few women (under 33) delay sex until the fourth or fifth (!) date.

    “You realize that’s 100% your fault. I don’t have that problem.”

    Yeah I think in some cases I completely screwed it up, but one or two of them were hardcore provider hunters (one was Eastern European), and I’m not convinced they would have had quick sex with anyone (in the phase in which they were in at that time).

    For reference I’m a younger guy with zero provider potential. I meet girls through Tinder and my issue historically has been being “too player” according to the article you wrote on the 85/15 balance. Definitely not the Beta Boyfriend kind of vibe so its a strange one.

    I think it’s some form of “I’m a strong independent woman who deserves respect” almost like some of them are becoming similar to over 33’s when it comes to sex? Not dinner dates, sure, but ASD.

  5. Glad I saw this lol.

    This is somewhat of a Sticking Point I struggle with. My confidence to approach is on a level of it’s own and I get dates on the spot even, but getting the Second Date seems to be a fuck up point at times.. OR if I do get a 2nd it goes nowhere.

  6. Do you recommend a coffee date ? It seems like the women are less guarded in a casual atmosphere.

    I am sick of the bars and would check them out to make sure they look like they do online. Then a bar the second date. The bar first date, it seems like an interview and they seem to have their guards up.

    Mark

     

    FYI, 3 years post hair transplant and very happy I changed from the weave.

     

  7. BD, for the benefit of possible neophytes, could you perhaps include some of your old field reports (or maybe not so old ones)?

    A big revelation for me was just thinking about historical examples. In the name of love, or just attraction, women would end up serving years in prison, or even getting executed, or otherwise making great sacrifices; surely there are women out there that would do just a tiny fraction of that effort for me! This was a big blow to the societally programmed narrative of what JOTB calls “generous lesbians”.

    BD, I suggest that you publish some stories about the more extreme things that women did out of attraction to you, I’m sure you have some. Stories of that kind do wonders to shatter artificial boundaries.

    Speaking for myself, for some time the most inspiring story from my own experience was that of a failure. In one sentence—I took her home on the second date, undressed her, went down on her, then she remembered she had a boyfriend, got dressed and ran away (later I got an angry text calling me “an asshole like all the rest”). I was partly disappointed and partly elated—apparently I, too, have this magical power to fry girls’ brains with attraction, even against their conscious decisions!

    (I said “for some time”. A year passed. Facebook status change noticed, date pitched, and this time no running away occurred.)

  8. Can anyone actually recommend any decent dating sites these days? They just all seem terrible now, I swear most women on them are either in complete provider hunter mode or just attention seeking for validation. Most of the sites you listed have long dried up and certainly not a good go to for a guy in their twenties. POF especially.

  9. I never take it personally anymore when a girl flakes or disappears after a great first date.  Odds are VERY high there’s another guy in the picture.  Either she has a boyfriend and she’s pissed at him/taking a break and quickly runs back to him or she’s dating multiple men at once.  The 2nd being very probable if you met on a dating site/app.  She might think you’re great but is slightly more into another guy and he got to her before you.

    The beauty of abundance mentality is you can shrug it off and move on to the next.  Hopefully you already have girls in your life and you have them to keep your sex life going strong.  Once you get to that point, this kind of shit will roll right off your shoulders.  It’s truly a big mental shift and makes life much easier.

  10. Do you recommend a coffee date ? It seems like the women are less guarded in a casual atmosphere.

    Yep, it’s fine. I’ve had sex with lots of women I met online at a coffee shop for date 1. I still think a fancy quiet bar is slightly superior though.

    BD, for the benefit of possible neophytes, could you perhaps include some of your old field reports (or maybe not so old ones)?

    I get a lot of requests for this so at some point I will go back and re-publish my old (and some newer) field reports from back in the day, since I still have copies of them all. This information won’t be free though; I’m going to have to figure out how to monetize it.

    BD, I suggest that you publish some stories about the more extreme things that women did out of attraction to you, I’m sure you have some. Stories of that kind do wonders to shatter artificial boundaries.

    I do, but they all involve women I was already dating as FB‘s or MLTR‘s, not with women on a first or second date.

    Plus, I’m outcome independent. I don’t care how badly (or not) women want me or how badly (or not) they “try.” I couldn’t care less. I’m just there for the sex.

    Can anyone actually recommend any decent dating sites these days? They just all seem terrible now, I swear most women on them are either in complete provider hunter mode or just attention seeking for validation. Most of the sites you listed have long dried up and certainly not a good go to for a guy in their twenties. POF especially.

    Most of the big dating sites and apps still work, they just don’t work as well as they used to, which is perfectly okay (unless your goal is to fuck 200 women). Read this.

    And read my online dating book.

  11. Plus, I’m outcome independent. I don’t care how badly (or not) women want me or how badly (or not) they “try.” I couldn’t care less. I’m just there for the sex.

    The bottom line for guys. Or at least it should be. As opposed to some women that need betas (or want alphas to act like betas) for relationships. They want to see that you put in effort; in order to validate them of  course. I don’t even know how many times I’ve heard (mostly read. I read women’s blogs for entertainment and sometimes insight into women’s psychology) women complain, that their man was not putting in enough effort. lol This is their whole central theme, whether some shlub puts in effort or not. As usual glad I’m not a woman, and more importantly that I don’t need them.

  12. How much did you weight back then?

    I don’t remember what I weighed in 2008. I was at my fattest at around 2010 or 2011, 249 pounds. The better I got with women, the more weight I gained.

    I don’t even know how many times I’ve heard (mostly read. I read women’s blogs for entertainment and sometimes insight into women’s psychology) women complain, that their man was not putting in enough effort.

    Betaization.

    (Though to be fair, a lot of men in long-term relationships do indeed start to get lazy and take the woman they’re with for granted. But I could say the same thing about women too.)

  13. Though to be fair, a lot of men in long-term relationships do indeed start to get lazy and take the woman they’re with for granted.

    They don’t get lazy. They are that way to begin with. Game, or more likely learning game takes way more effort than paying for dates and agreeing to marry some chick. Game is hard at first, but once you learn it, it’s like playing a video game on easy mode. Beta “seduction” techniques, or dinner dates start off easy, but once they turn into relationships where betas are emotionally invested are harder and more frustrating to maintain. More shit to deal with like drama, and more importantly higher exit costs.
    If betas grasped this concept, and a few others they would be better off. That’s why betas fail, because at some level they feel they’re entitled to women whether they realize it or not. Ask one of those guys if their woman deserves to be seduced, and continue to be attracted by them, and you’ll probably get a blank stare, like “what the fuck is this guy talking about?” At one point I felt sorry for betas, but not so much anymore. You don’t adapt, well that sucks for you.
    I actually respect InCels more than I do betas, even though they are just as entitled as betas. Except that they refuse to pay tribute, and probably adopt the attitude of “I’m not going to change the way I am, and kiss some girls ass like those puas. At least they don’t inflate women’s ego, and increase the price for long term relationships with women like betas do.

  14. lol, how do I delete all that other stuff from my comment. I copied from a word processor, and didn’t know it would come out all jacked.

  15. lol, how do I delete all that other stuff from my comment. I copied from a word processor, and didn’t know it would come out all jacked.

    Yeah don’t do that. You can copy stuff from an ASCII editor like Notepad, but not from something like Word.

    They don’t get lazy. They are that way to begin with.

    Depends on the man. I’ve seen many Alphas/PUAs with game get lazy in long-term relationships. Betas too. And many who were always lazy, yes.

    I actually respect InCels more than I do betas

    I think you mean anti-sex MGTOW’s. Incels want to get laid but can’t. It’s the anti-sex MGTOW’s who purposely opt out.

    And yes, I respect them more than betas, but that’s not a very high bar.

  16. Can anyone actually recommend any decent dating sites these days?

    Knowing that you are in your twenties, the only decent dating site, assuming you are an average-looking guy, is Tinder. It’s a numbers game, so you have to go where the girls are.

  17. It’s funny, Neil Strauss’s “The Game” also led me to the Fast Seduction forum. Which then led me to your work, which obviously led to me posting here at this site.

    This “Manosphere” or whatever you want to call it, really is a small world!

  18. Knowing that you are in your twenties, the only decent dating site, assuming you are an average-looking guy, is Tinder.

    I don’t know about the only decent site, but Tinder is working for me at the moment.

    Over the past couple of years, I’ve had quite a few women (under 33) delay sex until the fourth or fifth (!) date. Out of sheer curiosity I always ended up fucking them. But the problem is, is that when you do eventually fuck them, they become absolute nightmares to continue fucking. They get very demanding very quickly, and it’s just not a pleasant relationship to be in.

    Completely agree. In my experience, if you’re not fucking by the second meeting, or perhaps the third depending on all the circumstances, then it’s going to be a non-starter, assuming that what you are seeking is a reasonably long-term repeat sex partner without lots of drama and nonsense.

    I suppose I think of it as knowing when to call it a day. I sometimes enjoy going out on the hunt, for ONS. (I know BD looks down on this approach, but I like it from time to time, particularly when I’m travelling.) You can usually tell fairly quickly if a woman is a real prospect. If she’s not, it’s time to move on. She might be cute and funny and affirming and lots of other things, and that’s fine if that’s what you want, but if you’re aiming to fuck her you want more than that.

  19. Oh, I remember your detailed Lay Reports on mASF.

    I liked how you always wrote down the time spent and money spent at the beggining of the lay report. Also how you inlcuded full online conversations sometimes.

    At the time, I bet you didn’t imagine there was this kid religiously reading all of your stuff who would later go on to become….yeah, you know who I am talking about 😉

     

     

  20. I am sick of the bars and would check them out to make sure they look like they do online. Then a bar the second date. The bar first date, it seems like an interview and they seem to have their guards up.

    Don’t go to a bar for the second date. Use BD’s system and invite her home. If you go to a bar for the 2nd date, you’d have to bother with logistics in order to get her home / get to your place. On the second date, invite her over directly to your place for a movie / dinner / your starfish collection. You might be sceptical, but more than not they accept the invitation to your place. Trust me, I was sceptical at first, but escalation to sex once they are at your place is super easy (and fun!). If your game is on point, the women will openly tell you that they succesfully seduced you after the initial sex (“Oh my God, I knew this dress would do the trick!”, “I wanted to fuck your brains out as soon as you left the coffee shop last week.”, etc.).

    Going to a bar on a second date would almost guarantee that you needed to wait for the 3rd date to escalate, and while it seems counter-intuitive, your odds of getting sex have lowered a lot. Remember that girls date to disqualify, so the more time you spend with her without fucking her, the bigger your odds of blowing it.

  21. I kept up my rule that I would only message women online who were at least an 8 on the 1 to 10 attractiveness scale (at least for me, since the 1 to 10 scale is 100% subjective).[…] improve my 1 out of 10 ratio

    On 100 dates, in average, roughly how many women do YOU reject? Because not hot enough, or too fat or whatever thing that make you not like her not enough to want her on a second date even if they possibly would like to meet you again and have sex with you.

    Same question after a few dates with sex (a few dates with sex, meaning less than 9 dates, not a whole relationship). They would continue seeing you and have sex with you, but for whatever reason you decided to stop seeing them (or really to see them only extremely rarely and only because you were very very horny and didn’t have anyone else available for sex at this moment for some weird reason).

    How did this ratio evolve with time, did it grow or diminish?

    For me I think this ratio tends to augment with time. As when I arrive in a new city, I first need to meet and have sex with new women, I might not be as picky. Then when I have a roaster and rotation of women, I am more and more picky and tend to add only women who have something special. I also remove women who have any kind of visible stretch marks from previous pregnancies (over 90% of mothers have those ugly marks in my experience). I get into more first date that I don’t want to meet in a second date. And more women who I have sex with once, but I am not interested in adding them in my regular rotation, either because not in my favorite physical niche, and/or they refuse to even try anal sex. I may as well just not see them ever again.

  22. Good post. I’m also interested in stuff Gang asked above. Recently I have to kinda ‘LSNFTE‘ some girls I enjoyed before. As my rotation’s quality grows, so does my standard and sex with okay-ish girls starts to feel unsatisfied. I wonder if this is normal and I feel a bit bad hurting their feelings (they haven’t give me any drama, I just don’t have enough time for them all)

  23. I sometimes enjoy going out on the hunt, for ONS. (I know BD looks down on this approach, but I like it from time to time, particularly when I’m travelling.)

    I don’t look down on that approach. If it truly makes you happy, do it. (It better make you happy though.)

    Oh, I remember your detailed Lay Reports on mASF.

    I liked how you always wrote down the time spent and money spent at the beggining of the lay report. Also how you inlcuded full online conversations sometimes.

    Yep. That’s what made me well-known back then. No one else was doing online dating lay reports, or if they were, they weren’t detailed like mine were.

    At the time, I bet you didn’t imagine there was this kid religiously reading all of your stuff who would later go on to become….yeah, you know who I am talking about

    I don’t know.

    Don’t go to a bar for the second date. Use BD’s system and invite her home.

    Correct. The second date must always be at your home unless she absolutely won’t go for that when you  pitch it (over 33 women and a few higher ASD girls).

    On 100 dates, in average, roughly how many women do YOU reject? Because not hot enough, or too fat or whatever thing that make you not like her not enough to want her on a second date even if they possibly would like to meet you again and have sex with you.

    Very few. Maybe 5-8%. There is a HUGE problem with guys online where they message women they really don’t find all that attractive. Then they met them in real life and aren’t interested, which means these men are literally wasting their time.

    I have never, ever had this problem because I just refuse to do this. Every once in a while a woman will blatantly lie about her appearance, obviously I dump those, but that’s not typical.

    Same question after a few dates with sex (a few dates with sex, meaning less than 9 dates, not a whole relationship). They would continue seeing you and have sex with you, but for whatever reason you decided to stop seeing them

    Literally never.

    1. I don’t have sex with a woman unless I’m decently physically attracted to her in some way, period.

    2. I only next women if they give me drama. There can literally be no other reason for me. I’m also not one of these extreme Thrill of the Hunt men who get “bored” after having sex with the same woman four or five times.

    Again, men who don’t like a lot of women they go on dates with or have sex with just aren’t organized. I’m extremely organized to the point of being anal. I can not waste my time.

    How did this ratio evolve with time, did it grow or diminish?

    It’s always stayed about the same as far as I know.

  24. The second date must always be at your home unless she absolutely won’t go for that when you  pitch it (over 33 women and a few higher ASD girls).

    Pure time management reasons, or does it hurt one’s chances?

    I live in a prime location and there’s an excellent cafe literally 250m from my doorstep. Inviting girls there and going home after 40 minutes or so has been working quite fine for me.

    Or maybe the perfect strategy is to invite them home so my intentions are clearly communicated yet not spelt out, and if that initial offer is rejected, use the cafe instead (while they still know, and will have shaved and otherwise prepared)?

  25. In my experience, older women take a LITTLE longer to seduce, but not a lot longer. This is based on living in Canada and the US, and dating women of different races and national origins.

    Most will have sex after 2 – 4 dates, and they don’t have to be expensive dates.  I’ve run into one or two who expected to be wined and dined, but they are the exception, not the rule.

    I have, however, run into some resistance when trying  to invite them to my home directly as a second date. Like Anon says, I’ve had better luck meeting first somewhere close to my place, and then inviting her over, seemingly spontaneously.   The venue change seems to build comfort, and they are more open to sexual escalation, although not always to actual sex.

    Having a makeout session in the back of my car on the second date has also worked several times, usually leading to sex on the next date.

    A lot of them will SAY they don’t believe in having sex quickly, but the usual rule of “pay attention to what they do, not what they say“ applies here too.

    Calibration of kino seems very important… I think I was getting a lot of blowouts for a while because I went too sexual too fast. Now I make sure I spend a little more time handholding and doing some gentle kissing before putting my hands under her clothing, and that seems to be working much better.

  26. I live in a prime location and there’s an excellent cafe literally 250m from my doorstep. Inviting girls there and going home after 40 minutes or so has been working quite fine for me.

    I don’t know if you’re talking about the first date or the second date, or if you’re actually getting to sex most of the time when you’re getting them home.

    Getting them to your home as fast as possible is not the objective. Getting to sex as fast as possible is. Those are two different things.

    The bottom line is if what you’re doing is getting you laid quickly and reliably, don’t change it.

    In my experience, older women take a LITTLE longer to seduce, but not a lot longer.

    One of the points of contention with men regarding this over age 33 issue is that different men have different definitions for what is “a lot” longer or “too long” to get to sex. It sounds like “too long” for you is 5 dates. Fine, but that’s not me at all. Too long for me is after date 2 with more than about $30 spent.

    (There are unusual exceptions to the rule where I will tolerate sex on date 3 if there was sexual stuff on date 2 and I know that date 3 will cost me zero, i.e. she’s coming right over to my house to have sex, but even then I’m pushing my envelope.)

  27. I sometimes enjoy going out on the hunt, for ONS. (I know BD looks down on this approach, but I like it from time to time, particularly when I’m travelling.)

    I don’t look down on that approach. If it truly makes you happy, do it. (It better make you happy though.)

    Haha! It does. I should add that it’s not my main source of sex, or anything like it. An enjoyable side-line, as it were.

  28. It’d be interesting to know how many other guys here also track their progress like BD does (but maybe not as anal retentively as he admits he does), but with doing cold approaching in either day or night game.

    Online dating is ok, but I find both it and Tinder are geared way too much towards looks, so even if you get professional pics taken, it’ll help, but not all that much, if you’re not higher than a 7 in good looks terms.

    Whereas with cold approaching in day game, you need to learn game and have a lot of tenacity, as you’ll regularly be getting blown out. Night game isn’t my cup of tea, as I don’t drink alcohol and interacting with alcoholics doesn’t appeal to me.
     

  29. The second date must always be at your home unless she absolutely won’t go for that when you  pitch it (over 33 women and a few higher ASD girls).

    Pure time management reasons, or does it hurt one’s chances?

    In my experience, it hurts you chances. If she is into you, she’ll go for your home invite. If she is not, she’ll happily string you along.

    Unless you have a really special feeling about her (i.e. very into you but she is shy/caucious), I’d simply next her and move on.

    Or maybe the perfect strategy is to invite them home so my intentions are clearly communicated yet not spelt out,

    Exactly. Covert communication.

    and if that initial offer is rejected, use the cafe instead

    With your excellent logistics, I’d do exactly that. Invite them home, and if they refuse but you think they’re into you and worth the hassle, set up the meet at the café. For you, it’s only 1 hour of time if she ends up being a dead end. I’d make sure to invite her home though; if she refuses, I’d next her unless she immediately follows up with something along the lines of “but I’d love to come to your place next friday” or similar. A third date outside of your home is simply a waste of time.

  30. If a girl tricks you into spending a lot of money on her and you realize too late that your NRE made you comply, do you just hard next her or do you try getting half of the money spent back?

  31. There is a HUGE problem with guys online where they message women they really don’t find all that attractive. Then they met them in real life and aren’t interested, which means these men are literally wasting their time.

    I have this problem. However, I am very selective on the pictures. And women didn’t lie on they appearance, it’s just that I seem to really suck at telling if a woman is really attractive only based on her pictures. And with tinder I am even much worse since there is jo info of height and weight.

     

    For instance I met this week 3 women I was super attracted to on photos. Her photos were real. But in real life as soon as they showed up, I immediately wanted to run away. I wasn’t attracted at all.

    On the contrary, last month I met a woman that I thought was just cutie borderlne average in pictures. But when I met her in person I was very attractd to her, high end cute, and she is my favourite girl in my currency rotation since she is more interesting to talk to, perfect weight height and body to legs length ratio, and does anal.

  32. My experience also supports lesson 13. Most of the women who stayed longer term or at least a bit longer and who I banged were in my bed on date 2 (or at least up for it by then). I only had sex with one who needed 5/6 dates. The rest usually ends anyway by or before date 5 if we didnt have sex by then and its the girl who ends it. There are of course always some special cases like super innocent girls who do need more time but then its a question always whether it is worth it because they are often full of various issues one has to deal with.

  33. If a girl tricks you into spending a lot of money on her and you realize too late that your NRE made you comply, do you just hard next her or do you try getting half of the money spent back?

    That should never happen. Its your fault if that happens. Learn from it and move on. Most of my first dates are single drink each in the range of 3-6 bucks each, sometimes I pay it all and sometimes we split. Second date is always my place and I always provide the drinks/snacks (sometimes the girl brings something but I never ask for it) but the costs of those are like nothing.

    How could she trick you? If she orders a lot of super expensive drinks in a short time (that never happened to me) then I would force the split. If it was a dinner date then well you shouldnt have dinner dates until much later on at least or some very special cases like your meeting a girl in another town and you both had to travel but then you can make it clear you will split. If its for some event then again you shouldnt do event dates. So I dont see how that could even happen.

    For instance I met this week 3 women I was super attracted to on photos. Her photos were real. But in real life as soon as they showed up, I immediately wanted to run away. I wasn’t attracted at all.

    If its that bad you can make an excuse after a short time and leave. It happened to me that I met some women I wasnt attracted to but its rare. It was only a few times and I learned from it to the point that it happens almost never now – it was clear from the pictures in retrospect so now when I have clear doubts I dont go to the date. I think if you find her super attractive on the photos and she looks like her photos but you dont like her in person there is something wrong with your perception maybe you paint too much idealised image in your head. I guess what helps me in this regard is that I dont have such a high entry point for wanting to do something with a girl since I started doing non monogamy, I am a bit of a slut now, but its also part of the learning process for me. If shes cute or has a nice body or there is something about her that makes me excited I go for it and then later I decide the rest.

    The second date must always be at your home unless she absolutely won’t go for that when you  pitch it (over 33 women and a few higher ASD girls).

    Pure time management reasons, or does it hurt one’s chances?

    In my experience, it hurts you chances. If she is into you, she’ll go for your home invite. If she is not, she’ll happily string you along.

    Unless you have a really special feeling about her (i.e. very into you but she is shy/caucious), I’d simply next her and move on.

    Yes, absolutely! Girls who say yes to a second date but dont want to go to my place are extremely rare. I even had super innocent girls who were afraid of anything remotely sexual come to my house for second date. If they say no to that there is something very wrong. The few times the girl didn’t want to come to my house for a second date she ended up cancelling anyway or turned out to have some serious issues. Most either say yes or refuse a second date completely. One possible reason for this is that I normally end the date after about 1 or 1.5h and immediately suggest a next date at my house so shes prepared for it and has time to think about it and then if shes not into me she just says she doesn’t want to see me again (happens less and less these days).

    and if that initial offer is rejected, use the cafe instead

    With your excellent logistics, I’d do exactly that. Invite them home, and if they refuse but you think they’re into you and worth the hassle, set up the meet at the café. For you, it’s only 1 hour of time if she ends up being a dead end. I’d make sure to invite her home though; if she refuses, I’d next her unless she immediately follows up with something along the lines of “but I’d love to come to your place next friday” or similar. A third date outside of your home is simply a waste of time.

    My back up plan for the few girls who want to act like they dont wanna go to my house second time is to either say lets have a walk in a park (there is a park near my house) and then during the walk take them to my house or kiss them in the park, or say lets meet at my house first and then go to city – but of course I am not going to leave the house, I let her come like as in to pick me up and then I let her come in and offer her a drink and then if she wants to go somewhere else I say I won’t go and she can stay or leave. But honestly even if I have new dates every week I have to use this back up plan like twice a year. In the future I might just directly say no, that we can meet at my place or nothing, knowing that it means shes not really into me or has some serious issues if she doesnt want to come.

    Online dating is ok, but I find both it and Tinder are geared way too much towards looks, so even if you get professional pics taken, it’ll help, but not all that much, if you’re not higher than a 7 in good looks terms.

    Whereas with cold approaching in day game, you need to learn game and have a lot of tenacity, as you’ll regularly be getting blown out. Night game isn’t my cup of tea, as I don’t drink alcohol and interacting with alcoholics doesn’t appeal to me.

    You also need to have a really good profile description on Tinder. Several girls told me its a make or break for them and I have noticed about 4x more matches consistently as opposed to before and a lot of first dates from just a few short exchanges since I upgraded my profile description with something cool.

    I would have thought that cold approach during day would actually require good looks, but maybe I am wrong and its less the case. But I think regardless you will get a lot of flakes from day game because a lot of girls will say yes just to get rid of you, so you have to be prepared for that (and have time for it). Night game unless really heavy drinking is involved requires staying up till really late and or being really attractive also. I also think that height is more important in night game than anywhere else, so depending on your height this is either your niche or something to avoid completely (if you are something in between its also probably still not worth the staying up late and alcohol). I had some good results from night games but it was always at closed parties and really late and the percentage of times it resulted in anything was small compared to doing first dates from online.

  34. If a girl tricks you into spending a lot of money on her and you realize too late that your NRE made you comply, do you just hard next her or do you try getting half of the money spent back?

    No girl “tricked” you. You were just being an idiot. Take responsibly for your actions.

    I would ask for some or all of the money back, and if she said no, hard next her and move on to other women. (And never make that same dumb mistake again.)

  35. I normally end the date after about 1 or 1.5h and immediately suggest a next date at my house so shes prepared for it and has time to think about it and then if shes not into me she just says she doesn’t want to see me again (happens less and less these days).

    You do this through text right after the date?

  36. You also need to have a really good profile description on Tinder. Several girls told me its a make or break for them and I have noticed about 4x more matches consistently as opposed to before and a lot of first dates from just a few short exchanges since I upgraded my profile description with something cool.

    Do you mind expanding on this?  I kept mine to a few bullet points of things like height, hobbies, and fun sounding stuff.  Mainly banking on good pics.  Wasn’t even sure anyone looked at profiles on Tinder.

    Did you write out a full blown paragraph?

  37. I would ask for some or all of the money back …

    Not sure that you can sensibly ask for the money back if it was freely spent. (I am sure that you wouldn’t get it back.)

  38. Not sure that you can sensibly ask for the money back if it was freely spent.

    His entire scenario isn’t sensible. He wants his money back, so all he can do is ask.

    (I am sure that you wouldn’t get it back.)

    So am I.

  39. Not sure that you can sensibly ask for the money back if it was freely spent.

    His entire scenario isn’t sensible. He wants his money back, so all he can do is ask.

    Or go to another beta style date with her but tell her its her turn to pay when it comes to paying.

  40. Do you mind expanding on this?  I kept mine to a few bullet points of things like height, hobbies, and fun sounding stuff.  Mainly banking on good pics.  Wasn’t even sure anyone looked at profiles on Tinder.

    Did you write out a full blown paragraph?

    Don’t make it boring. Bullet points are good they are easy to read as long as its not just a lame list of stuff you do that everyone does. I never put my height and would not advice it to anyone who isnt quite above the average in where you live. If you are then sure put it there. Well maybe you dont look at the profiles (and I often dont) but women sure do.

    One of my dates told me like this: as a girl on Tinder ever yes swipe is a match so he needs to have really good profile or be super model in looks. So unless you already have scores of matches and dates you need to work a lot on your profile.

  41. Do you regularly watch sports?

    Never. Read reason number two here.

    Do you personally consider it a waste of time?

    Depends on how much time you spend on it. If you really and truly love it, and spend about an hour a day 4-5 days a week on it and that”s it, with no other time-consuming hobbies, then it’s fine. More than that, yes, it’s a waste of time.

  42. Don’t make it boring. Bullet points are good they are easy to read as long as its not just a lame list of stuff you do that everyone does. I never put my height and would not advice it to anyone who isnt quite above the average in where you live. If you are then sure put it there. Well maybe you dont look at the profiles (and I often dont) but women sure do.

    One of my dates told me like this: as a girl on Tinder ever yes swipe is a match so he needs to have really good profile or be super model in looks. So unless you already have scores of matches and dates you need to work a lot on your profile.

    Thanks for the advice!  I’ll have to try making mine more detailed and see what it does for me.  I’m always wary of making stuff like that too long, but who knows maybe women like that.

     

  43. Anyone ever tried LinkedIn for dating? Apparently its quite a big thing, but I am not sure what is the best way to approach it. The potential is huge though.

  44. From Part 5: Jenae “had her tubes tied”.

    Well, so she said. With later experience, would you necessarily have believed this?

    The second date must always be at your home

    If you’re a divorced man and at least sometimes your kids sleep there, your place is hardly going to look like a “fully functioning babe lair”. But what does it look like? Naturally you will keep the kid chaos in check before you invite a woman over, but it’s hard to imagine the place not having a “dad vibe” of some sort. Or is this not a problem because the women know you have kids and presumably expect to see some evidence of it?

  45. Well, so she said. With later experience, would you necessarily have believed this?

    I follow my own advice. She showed me the medical records. She just had done the procedure two years before.

    If you’re a divorced man and at least sometimes your kids sleep there, your place is hardly going to look like a “fully functioning babe lair”. But what does it look like?

    Back then, it was a small one bedroom apartment with no bed, just a mattress on the floor. Not one woman cared enough about it to not have sex with me.

    Naturally you will keep the kid chaos in check before you invite a woman over, but it’s hard to imagine the place not having a “dad vibe” of some sort. Or is this not a problem because the women know you have kids and presumably expect to see some evidence of it?

    As I talk about in my books, not only do I not hide that I have kids, but I play it up in my online dating profiles. That helps, not hurts.

  46. BD:

    1) I can’t use my home for dates, so bringing to my home in 2nd date is not an option for me. What would be the best place to invite for 2nd date for escalating to and having sex in 2nd date?

    2) I don’t drink alcohol either. What do you drink in nice bars in your dates? Does it have any impact on dates if you drink water, tea etc while women drink alcohol?

     

  47. I can’t use my home for dates, so bringing to my home in 2nd date is not an option for me. What would be the best place to invite for 2nd date for escalating to and having sex in 2nd date?

    Id say you can either ask her to come to her place explaining or you can do a drive in a car and then park on a nice scenic spot like in the movies and then escalate in the car. I guess thats what teenagers in the US who lives with parents but have car do? I also had a date once in another city and she was from another city too. We just took a walk in the park and kissed. She then asked me to get a hotel.

    I don’t drink alcohol either. What do you drink in nice bars in your dates? Does it have any impact on dates if you drink water, tea etc while women drink alcohol?

    I drink alcohol but I had tea in the past in a bar while they had beer. It felt a bit weird but I couldn’t say it had an impact. You probably have to explain though (I don’t drink is enough).

  48. 1) I can’t use my home for dates, so bringing to my home in 2nd date is not an option for me.

    Yes it is. You need to think a little more creatively. You can schedule certain nights with your family/roommates to be gone, as just one example. Read excuse #24 here for more options.

    2) I don’t drink alcohol either. What do you drink in nice bars in your dates?

    Either nothing, a virgin drink (virgin mojito in the summer, virgin blood mary in the winter), or a small glass of sweet white wine (like reisling or pino gris) that I just sip just once or twice.

    Does it have any impact on dates if you drink water, tea etc while women drink alcohol?

    Normally no, but it can in some cases. That’s why sometimes I’ll get wine or a virgin drink. Then it “looks like” I’m drinking “with” her.

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