I have been pelted with questions about this ever since I announced that my OLTR girlfriend was moving in with me:

What are my expectations regarding this relationship?

Do I think this will “work?”

How long do I think this will last?

These are all valid questions (and from some of you, concerns) and I will address them all today.

The Definition of the Word “Work”

Whenever I see the question asking if I think this will “work,” or a concern from a commenter saying that this probably won’t “work,” my first thought is “What do you mean by ‘work’?”

By “work” do you mean a forever wonderful Disney relationship that literally lasts until the day I die in 50+ years?

By “work” do you mean a relationship that is great for many years, and then much later, we end it, Pink Firefly moves out, and it’s all amicable?

By “work” do you mean a relationship that stays nonmonogamous regardless of how long it lasts?

Seriously, every man has as a different definition for the word “work” in a live-in relationship.

Therefore, whenever you state whether or not a relationship will “work”, you need to be very clear about what you mean by that word. Otherwise your question or statement isn’t something I can address. I know for a fact that many different men who discuss these topics have different, often radically different definitions for what makes a live-in relationship/marriage successful.

For example, some guys think OLTR’s that eventually become monogamous are just fine. Other guys think getting divorced is perfectly okay as long as it happens “a few years down the road.” Most Alpha Male 1.0’s who move in with a woman don’t mind regular drama, while other guys (like me) hate drama and would rather end a serious relationship than put up with it. Other guys think monogamy is just fine, while yet other guys think monogamy horrible. Some guys want their live-in woman to be with them literally for the rest of their lives, while other guys know that someday down the road, she’ll move out, and they’ll just go find someone else.

And so on.

So I have no idea what your personal idea of success is when it comes to a long-term, co-habiting relationship or marriage. But I can tell you what my idea of success is for this relationship.

My Objectives For This Relationship

PF and I are both realistic and have not been infected with delusions or Disney. I clearly addressed what I think about Disney in item #2 right here, and be sure to read that right now if you think I have any long-term Disney expectations about this, or any other relationship. Human beings are human beings, and behave like human beings, regardless of desires, feelings, or Societal Programming.

I’ve talked before about how a man should reach a point where he can fall head-over-heels in love with a woman, but without getting oneitis at the same time. Most men, beta males and Alpha Male 1.0’s included, can’t do this. They fall in love, and they get oneitis. It’s one and the same. The Alpha Male 2.0 has reached a point where he can fall completely in love with a woman, and literally want to be with her forever, but where he still can and will end the relationship if she becomes problematic, dramatic, or starts making demands of him.

At that point, it is quite possible to be in love with someone without getting delusional, making stupid decisions, and having unrealistic expectations.

Thus, my objectives for this OLTR marriage are the same as they’ve always been, all the way back to when I first started talking about this concept around seven years ago. That is, my goal is for this marriage to last at least ten years. Anything beyond ten years I consider a wonderful bonus, since I want this marriage to last the rest of my life. Does that mean I’m saying this marriage has a 100 percent chance of lasting forever? Of course not. Don’t be stupid. I’m simply talking about what I want.

Here’s a more specific breakdown regarding my goals for this relationship:

– If this live-in relationship lasts literally for the rest of my life, I will consider it one of the greatest accomplishments of my entire life. This would be the ideal outcome (assuming the relationship was reasonably low-drama that entire time).

– If this live-in relationship doesn’t last the rest of my life, but it does last ten years or more from the date of her move in, I will consider it a complete success and a huge victory, even if we part company after that. Again, I’d rather it last the rest of my life, but I will consider 10+ years a massive victory that I will be very happy about.

– If it lasts less than ten years but more than seven, I will consider it a moderate success. Seven years isn’t want I want, but to be fair to me, in an era with 70% divorce rates, a seven year live-in relationship/marriage is indeed an accomplishment, and one that is actually nonmonogamous and low-drama would be even more so.

– If it lasts less than seven years but more than four, I will consider it a failure, but a valuable learning experience and something worthwhile to have attempted.

– If it lasts less than four years, I will consider it complete failure, and I’ll have to ask myself some very tough questions about what I did wrong, since everything that happens to me is my fault.

All time frames given above start from the date she moved in, which was December 30th, 2017. When I say “lasts,” that means an actual break up and permanent move-out. Temporary breaks, soft nexting-type events, disagreements, and anything like that don’t count as a permanent break up.

The Odds

Now let’s talk about my odds of success based on the success parameters above. As usual, I am an odds player. I only engage in activates where I know my odds of success are good, and avoid those activities where my odds are poor, all regardless of my personal feelings on the matter. This alone explains my past success in business, finance, women, dating, blackjack, investing, and many other things.

Based on what I know about me and her, I consider the odds of this lasting past the four year failure zone very high, around 85% or more. I put my odds of this lasting 10 years at around 70%, but that’s only a guess at this point. She and I have been together for three years, but we’ve only been living together less than a month, so clearly I need more live-in time to give more accurate predictions for odds. Things may happen over the next few months or years that may cause me to revise those estimates up or down. Time will tell.

What About the Three Year Mark?

I’ve received that question a few times. “BD, aren’t you worried about the dreaded three year mark?!? What if, in three years, she gets bored with having sex with you and doesn’t want to have sex anymore?”

As I’ve explained before, the three year mark is only for monogamous couples. If it’s an OLTR marriage, it works a little differently:

1. The sexual boredom time frame still eventually occurs (most likely), but it takes much longer since you’re not betaizing yourself to her.

2. Even if it happens, it’s no big deal, since you’re still allowed to have sex with FB’s on the side whenever you like. If an OLTR husband has a wife who says no to sex, he just shrugs, says okay, and has sex with someone else sometime in the next few days. If a monogamous husband has a wife who says no to sex, now they have an extremely serious problem in their marriage (and in their lives). I’ve been both types of husbands now, and trust me, being an OLTR husband is much better.

PF is already well aware that as an Alpha 2.0, I will never tell her what to do. If I want to have sex, she can say yes or no, with no argument from me no matter what she says. If she says yes, then great. If she says no, that’s perfectly fine, I have FB’s who can take up the slack if needed.

This is a far cry from most monogamous couples who live together. In that case, when the woman says no to sex, massive arguments and other problems ensue, including the man cheating behind her back (and getting caught) with all the ensuing drama. Stupid.

(To be clear, I’m talking here about nicely and politely saying no to sex. I am not talking about a woman doing drama or being a bitch when her husband/boyfriend wants sex. Obviously, those would be serious problems in any type of relationship or marriage.)

The Marriage Has Begun

In my opinion, and I’ve always had this opinion going all the way back to my early 20’s, a man who is living full-time with a woman is married. Just because he may or may not have signed certain pieces of paper or had some kind of goofy ceremony is completely irrelevant; he’s living the lifestyle of a married man, regardless if he’s monogamous or not, or legally married or not.

Therefore, as of last December 30th, I now consider myself married, in an OLTR marriage, and Pink Firefly is now my wife. We are having a wedding ceremony next August, but again, that’s not relevant to me at all. I’m married now. If you disagree with this, read this article where I explain that position more fully.

As the wife an an Alpha Male 2.0, Pink Firefly is her own woman, free to think and do whatever she wants. Thus, she may disagree with aspects of what I’ve said above, which is perfectly fine with me. She’s more than welcome to clarify her position (if any) in the comments.

I will keep all of you updated as to our progress in this new marriage. More coming soon.

48 Comments on “Objectives and Expectations With My Live-In OLTR

  1. Once again, congratulations on establishing a long-term live-in OLTR (marriage).

    I personally am not interested in having one now, but I certainly see the benefits as a pair-bonding person.

    Anyone who has had both a regular relationship and a BD nonmono low-drama relationship can tell you that there is a world of difference between the two. I have a 1,5 year high-end MLTR that is just as enthusiastic about sex (almost more so) as she was when I met her. I’ve never had any drama from her, and I couldn’t even imagina a relationship close to this one a few years ago.

    I sometimes love to disagree with you about business, but I sometimes forget how much I really “owe” you regarding my relationship part of life, as well as many economic decisions.

    A great summary of how every man should handle his long-term relationships. I hope for both of you that living together becomes a priveledge rather than a chore.

    -JEB

     

  2. Best wishes BD and PF on this new adventure!  I’m sure you’ve prepared well and I’ll be curious to hear how it goes over time.  I’m still not sure I’d want to do an OLTR at this time but I’m loving m MLTR/FB setup and owe alot to you and your advice on how to keep it going.  This shit works gentlemen…if you have the sack to try it.

  3. That’s awesome. If you’re already ‘married’ though, why even involve the state and legally marry?

    1) Dating getting harder, for many reasons, so lock down regular sex.

    2) You’re older and no longer crave variety as strongly.

    3) You value love and companionship more than sex now. (Living together makes it much more complicated to bring girls home. Being married makes it harder to hook up with new prospects)

    4) Financial benefits?

    Welcome back to the married club!

     

     

  4. Hi BD… I wish you and Pink Firefly many years of happiness. You obviously are very well suited for each other, have the same expectations and values for a relationship. You seem very much in love, and I’m happy for you both.

    I have some questions, though. You say:

    “If this live-in relationship doesn’t last the rest of my life, but it does last ten years or more from the date of her move in, I will consider it a complete success and a huge victory, even if we part company after that. Again, I’d rather it last the rest of my life, but I will consider 10+ years a massive victory that I will be very happy about.”

    Wouldn’t you agree, then, that a *monogamous* marriage that lasts ten years or more is also a complete success and huge victory?  Assuming in the same way, they have many good years, then part ways on good terms? (And, yes, I understand that many monogamous marriages end on bad terms, but I’m referring to those that end on good terms).

    Also, I’m sure you agree that not all men share the same extremely high sexual appetite that you do, or even place the same level of importance on being able to have sex with other women. Additionally, some men truly value monogamy, and derive comfort, satisfaction, meaning, and pleasure from being in a monogamous relationship (especially as they get older). Isn’t their value system as important and legitimate as your value system, and shouldn’t they choose the type of relationship that ultimately makes them happiest? Even if that means having a happy and fulfilling marriage for ten years and then parting ways? So long as they protect their assets, etc.?

    Clearly, an OLTR is what makes you the happiest. And I understand that men, in general, are wired to want to have lots of sex and are attracted to many women, but our biology has evolved and modified over the years and not all men are wired the same. In the same way that perhaps Pink Firefly has a much higher sexual appetite than most women, aren’t there are many men who don’t share your sexual appetite, and would actually be HAPPIER in a monogamous marriage (assuming they are over 30 or 35)?

    Thanks for your thoughts, and I wish you and PF a lifetime of happiness together!

     

     

  5. PF and I are both realistic and have not been infected with delusions or Disney.

    Was PF Disney-free when you met her, or did that happen while you were dating (as part of The Talk or otherwise)?

  6. @John Smith

    In my experience, the best options for women with less Disney (they are rarely Disney free completely) are divorcees.  They’ve already been through the bullshit and have a much more realistic view of relationships and monogamy.   A caveat being that they were married for a number of years, at least 5 or so.   Any less they might chalk it up t a fluke or just blame the man entirely and begin their search anew for “happily ever after”.

    Women who simply had very long term boyfriends that didn’t marry will still have Disney desires since they feel they didn’t accomplish the big goal of a wedding.

  7. Wouldn’t you agree, then, that a *monogamous* marriage that lasts ten years or more is also a complete success and huge victory?

    No, because only having sex with one woman for 10+ years doesn’t make men happy. Read this.

    Just because a thing is harder to do doesn’t mean it’s a good thing to do.

    Also, I’m sure you agree that not all men share the same extremely high sexual appetite that you do

    Correct. I’ve written about that in great detail many times, particularly here.

    or even place the same level of importance on being able to have sex with other women.

    Incorrect. Long-term absolute sexual monogamy does not make a man happy (unless he’s a very bizarre exception to the rule, as in he doesn’t like sex or has some kind of very low testosterone problem, etc).

    If you mean just having sex with other women less frequently, then that’s fine, and I discussed that here. But if you’re implying absolute monogamy makes men happy over the long-term, you are wrong.

    Additionally, some men truly value monogamy, and derive comfort, satisfaction, meaning, and pleasure from being in a monogamous relationship (especially as they get older).

    Many men over age 60, yes. I’ve said many times before that if you’re over 60 I exempt you from the “monogamy makes men unhappy” statements I make (though there are many exceptions to that as well). But if you’re under age 60, no. These guys who get monogamously married in their 30’s, 40’s or 50’s and expect that to make them happy for the long-term (that means 3+ years) are stupid or not thinking clearly.

    Isn’t their value system as important and legitimate as your value system

    Not if it makes them less happy.

    and shouldn’t they choose the type of relationship that ultimately makes them happiest?

    It won’t make them happy long-term. The facts, studies, statistics, and biology clearly show this, as I’ve demonstrated literally hundreds of times at this blog and other places.

    Even if that means having a happy and fulfilling marriage for ten years and then parting ways? So long as they protect their assets, etc.?

    I already addressed that here.

    I understand that men, in general, are wired to want to have lots of sex and are attracted to many women, but our biology has evolved and modified over the years and not all men are wired the same

    Correct. I addressed those odd exceptions above.

    In the same way that perhaps Pink Firefly has a much higher sexual appetite than most women

    She does not and I’ve never said this. Her sex drive is average.

    Was PF Disney-free when you met her, or did that happen while you were dating (as part of The Talk or otherwise)?

    Haha. PF is notDisney-free.” She’s an extremely feminine girly girl with all kinds of Disney fantasies, which is par for the course with women with those kinds of personalities. (Why do you think we’re having a wedding ceremony? Do you really think that was my idea?)

    I said she has not been infected by delusions of Disney. She knows very well that the vast majority of humans break up or get divorced eventually. As a matter of fact, she told me this before I ever mentioned it to her. Her exact words to me were, “Nothing lasts forever.” So she knows what’s up.

    She desires Disney details (girly wedding, etc) but she doesn’t have any solid, long-term Disney expectations (at least not yet; this could absolutely change down the road; anything is possible). At least that’s my view of her feelings on it; she’s welcome to clarify herself in the comments if she wants.

    In my experience, the best options for women with less Disney (they are rarely Disney free completely) are divorcees.  They’ve already been through the bullshit and have a much more realistic view of relationships and monogamy.

    Not quite correct. Those women will still desire all the same Disney trappings (traditional monogamous marriage, etc) and push for it just as hard. The only difference is that they will secretly know and not care that you’ll probably get divorced someday down the road (and they will not admit this unless pushed really hard).

    Women who simply had very long term boyfriends that didn’t marry will still have Disney desires since they feel they didn’t accomplish the big goal of a wedding.

    That’s very true. (That’s Pink Firefly.) But that doesn’t change what I just said above.

  8. Congratulations BD and Pink Firefly! Wishing you all the happiness and enjoyment of your life together as you take this big step.

  9. @CrabRangoon

    Thanks, but I’m not really interested in screening for women who already have less Disney. It would be a nice bonus, but I’d rather learn how to have the “I want this to last forever, but we have to acknowledge that it might not” conversation with women who have some amount of Disney with the least amount of bad feelings.

    I’m also not convinced that previously married women have less Disney. They may be more jaded, but I suspect that’s because they still have the Disney, but didn’t get the Happily Ever After.

  10. I’m also not convinced that previously married women have less Disney. They may be more jaded, but I suspect that’s because they still have the Disney, but didn’t get the Happily Ever After.

    Correct.

    They won’t demand as extravagant a wedding and so on (again, the details), but they’ll still want it, expect it, and demand it.

  11. I’m also not convinced that previously married women have less Disney. They may be more jaded, but I suspect that’s because they still have the Disney, but didn’t get the Happily Ever After.

    I would argue that they have even more acute Disney, especially if their former husband was not good in bed (and you are). Divorced women are horny, but still on the hunt for the unicorn man.

  12. I guess I should clarify that divorced women tend to be less Disney based on very anecdotal evidence in my own life and seem to be more amiable to open relationships than women who have never married.  I agree that they still will most likely try to push for marriage again.  However in my own life and friend’s lives, I see the never marrieds pushing VERY hard to get legally married and monogamous.  Divorced girls do seem to agree that long term monogamy doesn’t work very well.  Again maybe I’ve just been lucky with the women I’ve been meeting so it’s good to hear other points of view.

    I’m not a screener either-I but girls in a certain box pretty quickly depending on certain attributes like age, etc..  For example, the hot 26 year old bartender is a definite FB at first and not at all good for MLTR.

  13. Ah Disney…..

    Wouldn’t you agree, then, that a *monogamous* marriage that lasts ten years or more is also a complete success and huge victory?

    No. How is it a huge victory to be constantly cheated on, or worse, live for ten years in a state of sexual frustration and involuntary celibacy, with constant fighting and drama?

    Assuming in the same way, they have many good years, then part ways on good terms? (And, yes, I understand that many monogamous marriages end on bad terms, but I’m referring to those that end on good terms).

    If the marriage ended on good terms, the wife was probably cheating a lot. That is what relieved her stress. Trust me, I know. Without cheating, she’d be frustrated and angry and the marriage would have ended on bad terms. Strengthening or revitalizing the marriage usually means cheating. That’s why we say that if you’re going to sleep with other people anyway, why not just make it an open relationship? You’re poly no matter what. The only question is, do you know it?

    Also, I’m sure you agree that not all men share the same extremely high sexual appetite that you do,

    What about women? You think your wife is a good Disney prude? I doubt most men are attracted to that, even though tradcons hypocritically pretend to be.

    or even place the same level of importance on being able to have sex with other women.

    What about her having sex with other men? If you’re mono, how can you verify that she never cheated? Just because she never got caught? Monogamy immediately sets you up for disrespect, even if you’ll never know it. Why takes the chance when you can set up a system in which secret disrespect is not even possible?

    Additionally, some men truly value monogamy, and derive comfort, satisfaction, meaning, and pleasure from being in a monogamous relationship (especially as they get older).

    HAHA! Some men also value heroin. What’s your point? They derive comfort from living in a delusion in which their wives cheat on them with me, and they are none the wiser? Well, if you value your ignorance, go for it. But I’m probably fucking your wife. If you don’t mind, why not be openly poly? If you do mind, then how does this arrangement give you comfort?

    Isn’t their value system as important and legitimate as your value system,

    No. Slut shaming and delusions of sexual purity aren’t legitimate value systems. They are shackles which collectively hold us back from becoming an enlightened species.

    and shouldn’t they choose the type of relationship that ultimately makes them happiest?

    If living a lie makes them happy, sure. I’ll be very happy to prevent arguments and stress in the marriage by secretly fucking their wives! Otherwise no, they are not happy. These men are miserable, but they think being miserable is better than being alone, as if those are the only two options.

    Even if that means having a happy and fulfilling marriage for ten years and then parting ways? So long as they protect their assets, etc.?

    The only way they’ll have a happy and fulfilling monogamous marriage for ten years is if there’s a lot of cheating going on, which relieves stress and relaxes them. But I don’t see what the difference is between that and poly, except secrecy.

    Without cheating, they’ll be stressed and miserable, unless they are both low sex drive. Not just you, but her as well. It’s not enough for you to hate sex, she must hate it too. And many women will play the conservative damsel just to snag a guy like you (if only for the money) and then gladly fuck me in the back seat of your car during a snow storm, but I digress. So yeah, maybe get a Muslim woman?

    Clearly, an OLTR is what makes you the happiest. And I understand that men, in general, are wired to want to have lots of sex and are attracted to many women, but our biology has evolved and modified over the years and not all men are wired the same.

    Then find a Muslim woman, a Hasidic Jew, or a crazy Christian girl who prides herself on being a virgin till marriage. If you both are, more or less, asexuals, then yeah, I guess monogamy can work. Just don’t expect the rest of us to understand you.

    In the same way that perhaps Pink Firefly has a much higher sexual appetite than most women, aren’t there are many men who don’t share your sexual appetite, and would actually be HAPPIER in a monogamous marriage (assuming they are over 30 or 35)?

    Only if you find a super low sex drive woman. But because of slut shaming, many women will only pretend to be “pure.” I actually had regular sex with a woman just like this two years ago. Her husband was a Christian minister. He wanted to marry a virgin and she lied to him (saying she was raped once), thus explaining her missing hymen.

    He married her and, to this day, he is secure in the delusion that he is the only man whom she has ever had consensual sex with. In truth, he’s like the 78th dude. They have two kids together (both boys) and they’re raising them as conservative Christians, while she was banging me and (according to her) half the men in her husband’s church on the side!

    So basically, your low sex drive doesn’t mean shit, unless you meet a woman who’s pretty much an asexual as well. Here’s a suggestion: Get into a poly relationship and just let your woman bang other dudes on the side, while you, very occasionally, fuck only her. Why not?

    I wish you and PF a lifetime of happiness together!

    It won’t be a lifetime dude.

     

  14. Hmmm.  This got me wondering – in regards to Marriage of any kind, if a man has his own place or even a travel trailer, kept fiances/taxes separate, and got married, wouldn’t that eliminate 90% + of the risk of the women bailing on him and trying to collect anything once she gets bored or tired of picking up my crap?  (I am assuming no children here)

    Also, let’s assume something was signed and official that we don’t fully live together 100% or something like that too. My main residence is my Jayco blah blah blah and hers is XYZ.

    My biz was started before the marriage too, which would help too.

    Another words – is the main risk for men the actual Marriage or Living Together?   I am sure some of this will depend on what State a person is in too…

  15. This got me wondering – in regards to Marriage of any kind, if a man has his own place or even a travel trailer, kept fiances/taxes separate, and got married, wouldn’t that eliminate 90% + of the risk of the women bailing on him and trying to collect anything once she gets bored or tired of picking up my crap?

    That depends entirely on the paperwork you both sign and the long-term enforceablity of that paperwork in the city where you reside.

    is the main risk for men the actual Marriage or Living Together?

    No. In a traditional, legal marriage, a judge in a divorce hearing isn’t going to give a fuck about you having you own address if nothing enforceable was ever signed and you were married to her for many years.

    You’re trying to place logic, reason, and/or fairness onto the American family court system. It doesn’t exist there.

  16. Ok, but what is meant by “enforceable”?  My experience with Judges in divorce matters is it depends on 1) if you have an attorney or are Pro Se, 2) if the Judge likes this attorney and 3) if the Judge likes you.

    Judges are so corrupt how would you really know your docs are enforceable?

     

  17. @Pink Firefly if you’re reading this:

    Could you please elaborate your own personal point of view on your “Objectives and Expectations With Caleb”? What would be for you the ideal outcome, a success, a moderate success, a failure, a complete failure, the odds, etc… or use your own words and concepts instead.

    And from what date do you consider yourself married to him?

    Last but not least, could you please share what a wedding ceremony represents for you personally and why it is something that feels important to you?

    All the best to both of you together 🙂

  18. Ok, but what is meant by “enforceable”?

    The law actually protects you and abides by what’s in the paperwork, and the results of past precedent cases clearly indicate such.

    My experience with Judges in divorce matters is it depends on 1) if you have an attorney or are Pro Se, 2) if the Judge likes this attorney and 3) if the Judge likes you.

    If you never signed anything enforceable and you just got married the normal way, that is correct, you’re at the pure whim of judges and attorneys at that point.

    Judges are so corrupt how would you really know your docs are enforceable?

    Past precedent cases of other people who tried to challenge the type of documents you’re signing.

    Plus, this stuff only matters if she actually hires an attorney and goes to court to challenge what she signed under legal witnesses. If you set up the paperwork correctly, she’ll look like an idiot if she does this, if she even does it at all.

    Under normal conditions, she didn’t sign anything in your favor, and automatically gets half your stuff. Totally different scenario.

  19. Judges are so corrupt how would you really know your docs are enforceable?

    So why do you want to get married then? What’s the point of it? First you want to invite the State into your bed, and then you worry about it snoring and hoarding the covers? How about this? Don’t invite the State into your bed! Is this hard?

    Especially if you don’t even want to live with her. Then why are you obsessed with a meaningless ceremony that belongs in the dark ages?

  20. Congratulation, pls keep us updated.

    I suggest a ”First week living together” or ”First month living together” diary-type article if you don’t mind exposing too much.

    At which point of the OM do you think it will be the most challenging (means you have to adapt to seeing each other much more frequently and make the most compromises) before it becomes smooth-sailing? Maybe the first year? or the 5th years? (like the 3-years mark of monogamy when sexual interest dies down a bit)

    It will be fun to tell us about your predicted obstacles down the road and how you intend to overcome them, then we will see what pans out as you think and what not.

  21. “This got me wondering – in regards to Marriage of any kind, if a man has his own place or even a travel trailer, kept fiances/taxes separate, and got married, wouldn’t that eliminate 90% + of the risk of the women bailing on him and trying to collect anything once she gets bored or tired of picking up my crap?”

    Guys, beware. There is no such thing as *paper work* that will protect your assets if you have a kid with her. You will pay child support for roughly 21 years, depending on where you both live. You can be arrested for non payment, and anything you own can be attached.

    Even if the woman commuted fraud. For example impregnating herself after a BJ. Some cases, women won even if she refused a paternity test to prove it’s yours. Even if she never told you you have a kid, then 10 years later the state decides to go after you for the welfare she collected. You can be forced to pay for the 10 years you didn’t even know about the kid.

  22. These men are miserable, but they think being miserable is better than being alone, as if those are the only two options.

     

     

    They are wrong.  Being miserable is a far, far worse fate.

  23. I suggest a ”First week living together” or ”First month living together” diary-type article if you don’t mind exposing too much.

    That’s a good idea. I don’t think I’ll be quite that structured, but I will make future diary-type articles about our progress.

    At which point of the OM do you think it will be the most challenging (means you have to adapt to seeing each other much more frequently and make the most compromises) before it becomes smooth-sailing?

    Actually, right now is pretty challenging. Living with someone is very new for me (it’s been 10 years) and reasonably new for her (it’s been about 5 years). And much of her stuff still isn’t unpacked and the house has been a mess (since she’s gone for 10-12 hours a day), her dog is irritating to me and its still getting used to the new house, we’re still getting used to each other’s schedules and rituals, and so on. Nothing is stabilized yet; it’s been an odd month so far. Things should stabilize in another two weeks or so.

    Maybe the first year? or the 5th years? (like the 3-years mark of monogamy when sexual interest dies down a bit)

    It’s hard to say, since this isn’t the typical relationship. My wild guess will be that everything will be fine in two weeks, and stay that way for about two or three years, at which she’ll reach some kind of boredom point… not the same boredom point that monogamous women experience, but an OLTR version. Again, I can’t pinpoint the timing with any accuracy. (This all assumes drama stays low during this time, as well.)

    Doesn’t she also worship “the jesus?”

    Just like your OLTR worships “the mother earth,” yes. Though PF isn’t a practicing Christian (she doesn’t go to church or anything), she just self-identifies that way. In other words, she’s the typical American. I don’t care either way. Nor does this have anything to do with her sex drive.

  24. This relationship will probably not be smooth sailing but has high odds of success based on your personal criteria.

    Reasons that heavily increased your odds:

    1. You are not planning on having children

    2. You are both “older” and thus more mature

    3. You have reasonable/realistic expectations

    4. You have separate finances.

    5. You are not monogamous.

    I do disagree with your line of thinking of thinking concerning failure, even though your version of failure doesn’t involve slitting your wrists or going on a long bender after the break up. There are so many variables that are working against you that you might as well say that you already failed by entering this arrangement, as you yourself have already stated that even an oltr is the least of the bad deals but a bad deal nonetheless. Given this I would say that your mindset going in has you not losing no matter what; what poker players call a free roll.

    The main issue I see coming up is the financial aspect. I think it was Dawson Stone (can’t remember if that was his name) that said the only way a woman would “tolerate” an oltr was if she was taken care of financially (I have hard time believing that a decent looking women would agree to split everything 50/50 while not being monogamous, but not saying it’s impossible). Given you already know this, it is only a matter of degree to which you will feel comfortable with this arrangement.

    I can’t imagine I could ever come up with an amount of taking care of her that would be reasonable to both parties. It would either end up that I am too cheap, or that she wants/asks for too much. Since you have already stated that you won’t disclose this info, we can only come up with our own assumptions/conclusions regarding this aspect of the relationship.

  25. Reasons that heavily increased your odds

    Yep. All I do in life is increase my odds of success before (and during) attempting something.

    In all honesty, the biggest item in your list is that we don’t/won’t have kids. Men have no idea how difficult it is to maintain a long-term live-in relationship with a modern-day woman when her kids are also living in the house (your kids or step kids; either one, doesn’t matter).

    There are so many variables that are working against you that you might as well say that you already failed by entering this arrangement, as you yourself have already stated that even an oltr is the least of the bad deals but a bad deal nonetheless.

    You’d have to logically explain why setting up the least-bad option of all available options = failure. That makes no sense.

    the only way a woman would “tolerate” an oltr was if she was taken care of financially

    Down the road, that may indeed be the case. As a matter of fact, that outcome is likely. I as I make more money I likely won’t care if I start taking care of her financially. Right now I care, a lot, but I have a feeling I won’t care several years down the road (again, that’s just a guess).

    She also benefits financially by being with me right now in a few ways. She already has a higher than average income, but I make a lot more money than her, so her receiving some financial benefit by living with me is almost unavoidable.

    I can’t imagine I could ever come up with an amount of taking care of her that would be reasonable to both parties.

    That depends on your income and financial position. For example, if you were completely debt free, made $400,000 a year, and had $10 million in the bank, no matter how frugal you are, would you really give a shit about paying for your wife’s groceries and clothing and nail appointments? Provided she wasn’t a huge gold digger and her desires were typical? I doubt you’d mind, and that’s my point. Your viewpoint is coming from your current financial position (as is mine), but current doesn’t mean forever (unless you’re one of these pro-being-poor MGTOW guys).

    Again, I’m talking about long time horizons here, not just today or next year. That’s how this type of relationship differs from the other types usually discussed here.

    Since you have already stated that you won’t disclose this info, we can only come up with our own assumptions/conclusions regarding this aspect of the relationship.

    People are going to make all kinds of untrue assumptions about this relationship and already have. I don’t mind nor care.

  26. I get anxiety even with my fbs or girls i am seeing bring stuff over, clothing, purses, backpacks… since i am a minimalist….     In other words mess to me is what is drama to you… I have to have my place clutter free and organized… I think that will be a major issue with her moving in… Also the dog, will also bring an element of stress, specially since it was not yours from the get go…

  27. In all honesty, the biggest item in your list is that we don’t/won’t have kids. Men have no idea how difficult it is to maintain a long-term live-in relationship with a modern-day woman when her kids are also living in the house (your kids or step kids; either one, doesn’t matter).

    Meanwhile there’s an active discussion on Reddit where childless people aged 40+ are asked to reflect on their choice not to have children. There’s already almost 8k comments, and hardly anyone expresses regret.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/7qc833/how_do_you_feel_in_your_40s_50s_and_older_after/

  28. BD,

    Congrats and keep on designing your life by your criteria.

    I used to kiddingly say that marriages should be like a NBA contracts. No longer than 3-5 years with an option to renew.  Everybody better be on their best behavior in a contract year.

    Some of my friends, from the alternative lifestyle, are doing yearly contracts.

    The detractors say that makes it “too easy” to leave the relationship.

    Personally, I feel that if it is easy to leave and each person wants to stay, it is much better than being forced (by law, societal programming, kids, etc) to stay together.

    Nothing is:

    Perfect
    Guaranteed
    Forever

    But you at least are doing your here and now on your own terms. Very deliberately I might add.

    *hands clap slowly*

     

     

     

     

  29. her dog is irritating to me

    That’s already a deal breaker for me: I like cats but I hate dogs, for me they smell bad and they are horribly noisy. Barking is such an  unbearable nuisance! I can’t live with a dog.

  30. I’m not a dog person, but dogs are fine with me as long as they’re normal dogs. I owned a dog for many years, loved the guy, and grew up with dogs without any issues. The problem is her dog is one of those tiny, hyper, high maintenance ones that likes to shit/pee wherever it feels like. The problem will soon be resolved one way or the other.

  31. “The problem is her dog is one of those tiny, hyper, high maintenance ones that likes to shit/pee wherever it feels like. The problem will soon be resolved one way or the other.”

    Cue scary music.

  32. The problem will soon be resolved one way or the other.

    Yeah, put it to sleep 😉

    Dark humour aside, happy to hear that you find a solution soon.

  33. Do you have articles or materials available for purchase that document how to communicate about wedding ceremony, marriage (and the Alpha Male 2.0 imperative of not being financially entangled, nor being legally contractually enchained to her) with a woman who is in an OLTR with you?
     
    I am wondering if you have come up with a somehow systemised way to talk about that or if your experince is by design so few in this OLTR marriage situation that you are not yet there. In particular: do you have a “marriage talk” in the manner of “The talk”. Or instead is it a diluted process more like a EFA or “frame” where you dispense her tiny doses of “the state should never be involved in intimate relationships”, “we need 2 bathrooms, 2 bedrooms and an additional living place such as an apartment/other house elsewhere in town so that I can LSNFTE you whenever you throw a drama” and other concepts until she integrates these inceptions to some level deemed acceptable by her?

  34. If I’m not mistaken, you haven’t addressed the biggest issue of a living-in: the frequency of sex.

    Instead of seeing each other for 1-3 times per week (in OLTR framework) now you will see her every day. How much sex will you have on the weekly basis? how do you react when you feel tired but she feels horny and ask for sex?

    At the start, you likely will have unlimited sex from her. Do you, sometimes, purposely avoid/refuse sex request from PF to save energy to go play with high-quality FBs, in order to keep them around?

  35. Do you have articles or materials available for purchase that document how to communicate about wedding ceremony, marriage (and the Alpha Male 2.0 imperative of not being financially entangled, nor being legally contractually enchained to her) with a woman who is in an OLTR with you?

    Not yet, but I will!

    I am wondering if you have come up with a somehow systemised way to talk about that or if your experince is by design so few in this OLTR marriage situation that you are not yet there. In particular: do you have a “marriage talk” in the manner of “The talk”.

    There’s The Talk and then there’s The OLTR Talk, both of which I describe in The Ultimate Open Relationships Manual. Financial aspects of any future marriage can (and probably should) be discussed in The OLTR Talk. That’s not really a “marriage talk” though.

    Through my frame and things I said, it was blatantly obvious to Pink Firefly, almost from day one, that I would demand all kinds of legal asset protections if we ever got OLTR married. I barely had to say it. If you’re way into a relationship with a woman, then tell her you need legally separate assets if you live together (or whatever) and she reacts with shock / anger, then your frame was way off to begin with.

    If I’m not mistaken, you haven’t addressed the biggest issue of a living-in: the frequency of sex.

    Incorrect. That is not the biggest issue. The biggest issue of live-in is drama. Frequency of sex is far less important because you can always get it somewhere else.

    How much sex will you have on the weekly basis?

    Initially, a lot. After several years, much less. Again, it doesn’t matter. That’s the beauty of OLTR.

    how do you react when you feel tired but she feels horny and ask for sex?

    I virtually never say no to sex. Even when I’m very tired I’m horny as hell and ready to rock. What you’re describing has only happened a handful of times when it was already very late in the evening (like 1am) and I was already falling asleep. I just said no and had sex with her first thing the next morning as soon as I woke up (literally).

    Do you, sometimes, purposely avoid/refuse sex request from PF to save energy to go play with high-quality FBs, in order to keep them around?

    Never. And not just with PF, but with any woman I was dating. I’m happy to have sex with two women in the same day (and have many times). I’m a high-energy guy with a very high sex drive. I don’t “run out of steam” or whatever.  I also don’t have a “maximum” number of days per week I can have sex. I’d have sex every day (and have) with no problem at all (other than logistical scheduling issues).

  36. Incorrect. That is not the biggest issue. The biggest issue of live-in is drama. Frequency of sex is far less important because you can always get it somewhere else.

    Since sex with your oltr is “not the biggest issue,” (which I interpret as not a big deal) are you planning on possibly being with her for years if/after /when she completely stops having sex but everything else is fine? I think already asked you this a few years back, when you opined that you didn’t care if your wife got fat/unattractive, but not sure.

    Edit: I didn’t read this until I had already posted, but I’m guessing your answer would be:

    “Again, it doesn’t matter. That’s the beauty of OLTR.”

  37. @BD

    1) do you sell a package that contains all of these marriage documents already prepared for the most part?

    2) what if the word “marriage” was replaced w “Romantic Partnership” with a number of years to renew it or annual renewal date.

    This would give both people ability to negotiate different issues every year and seems like it could help offset the Disney stuff a lot maybe.

    More practical and realistic that focuses on Chemistry and Longistics versus only doing a standard marriage contract just based on someone falling in and out of love.  Both are still contracts at the end of the day.  And the traditional one is not forever anyways so why not go ahead and have renewals??

     

  38. Meanwhile there’s an active discussion on Reddit where childless people aged 40+ are asked to reflect on their choice not to have children. There’s already almost 8k comments, and hardly anyone expresses regret.

    Of course no one regrets not having children, the downside is going through years of hearing other people talk about their kids to death. How Megan is taking violin lessons and Landon is on the chess team, and how it’s so fulfilling and great source of pride to watch them grow and all kinds of other crap. Mean while you have to sit there and listen to all this, while trying not to display how happy you are with all your free time and disposable income. Deep down they know the score and probably hate/resent you for your smart choice and not joining them in their misery.

  39. Since sex with your oltr is “not the biggest issue,” (which I interpret as not a big deal) are you planning on possibly being with her for years if/after /when she completely stops having sex but everything else is fine? I think already asked you this a few years back, when you opined that you didn’t care if your wife got fat/unattractive, but not sure.

    Edit: I didn’t read this until I had already posted, but I’m guessing your answer would be:

    “Again, it doesn’t matter. That’s the beauty of OLTR.”

    Correct. She can stop having sex with me and I would still stay (though I agree that would not be ideal). I’d just have sex with FB‘s more frequently.

    Yes, she can stop having sex with me, gain weight, do whatever, and I’ll still stay. The only thing she can’t do is give me drama. That would cause me to leave, hell yes. But that’s the only thing.

    do you sell a package that contains all of these marriage documents already prepared for the most part?

    Such a thing can’t be sold since every country / state / province in the world uses completely different paperwork for that. And in most of the Western world, they aren’t enforceable anyway.

    And the traditional one is not forever anyways so why not go ahead and have renewals??

    Because it would not be legal in the Western world. You really need to go talk to a local family attorney and ask him this stuff, since he’ll tell you the same thing I am only with more detail.

  40. Thanks for the clarification. As a reformed/ing Alpha 1.0 this shit is not easy to transition to. It’s good to know one is not alone and that some people are already at this stage, as it serves as motivation to try at and get to this level.

  41. Through my frame and things I said, it was blatantly obvious to Pink Firefly, almost from day one, that I would demand all kinds of legal asset protections if we ever got OLTR married. I barely had to say it. If you’re way into a relationship with a woman, then tell her you need legally separate assets if you live together (or whatever) and she reacts with shock / anger, then your frame was way off to begin with.

    I would be very interested to read about that in more details and examples.

    I read the UROM, including the OLTR talk, but I think I have no clue if I am conveying the proper ideas about finances and legalities with my frame to the FB and MLTR women in my life: I am more nomad and extreme minimalist (you also described me before as extreme environmentalist when I brought up the topic of Alpha 2.0 environmental footprint in some email). I happily share my food and beverages when home but I almost always go dutch on dates in the rare cases when there is something to be paid.

    But I avoid talking about money and especially don’t disclose anything about my finances, not even a hint. If pressed with questions I reply extremely vaguely and downplay my financial worth and even more so, as an only child, the one of my parents. Also, in the European country where I am from, it’s kinda taboo to talk about money, and being asked directly about income or finances is considered very rude. So I am not in the most comfortable place to verbally communicate anything related to money around women I date. I would probably do better if I learned how to talk about it to convey the proper frame.

    I also don’t discuss the law (especially not laws in relation to relationships) or even politics. I don’t even really know the details of these in most country I live in, anyways and I doubt these women would have anything reliable or smart to say about it, except the odd exception of a lawyer – which I never happened to have ever dated so far. I don’t have any intrinsic interest in laws in general, it’s just one more administrative burden/restriction that I try as much as possible, to not put myself in situations where I would have to deal with its technicalities directly. It all just seems boring and absurdly convoluted, purposely for trapping anyone and making the powerful more powerful. One of these utterly useless man made thing, a total waste of human time and resources on earth.

  42. Do you, sometimes, purposely avoid/refuse sex request from PF to save energy to go play with high-quality FBs, in order to keep them around?

    Never. And not just with PF, but with any woman I was dating. I’m happy to have sex with two women in the same day (and have many times). I’m a high-energy guy with a very high sex drive. I don’t “run out of steam” or whatever.  I also don’t have a “maximum” number of days per week I can have sex. I’d have sex every day (and have) with no problem at all (other than logistical scheduling issues).

    What’s your advice for the general readers who only crave sex 2-3 times per week then?

  43. I don’t have any intrinsic interest in laws in general, it’s just one more administrative burden/restriction that I try as much as possible, to not put myself in situations where I would have to deal with its technicalities directly. It all just seems boring and absurdly convoluted, purposely for trapping anyone and making the powerful more powerful.

    You are correct. That’s why I’m a libertarian and an Alpha 2.0.

    What’s your advice for the general readers who only crave sex 2-3 times per week then?

    That’s me. I only need sex about three times a week. That’s my minimum. I just said I have no maximum. In other words, if I have sex 3 times in a week and PF wants to have sex a 4th time, I’m not going to say no; I’m going to take that 4th time and enjoy it. I just don’t need that 4th time. I like sex.

    If you’re saying that your maximum is 3 times per week, and you will actually say no to any sex beyond 3 times per week, then your OLTR will already clearly know that about you well before you move in with her (since it will have happened before and/or you will have already discussed it with her).

  44. A guide to talking about marriage alternatives with women would be very helpful. I’m glad to hear it’s on the way. 🙂

    I had that conversation with a woman recently and know I’ve made all kinds of mistakes. The first of which being getting into the conversation WAY to soon. It all started with her asking “do you see yourself getting married again someday?” Then I opened a huge can of worms by saying “Yes. But I don’t see it being a traditional “legal” marriage. I learned the first time around that there is really no upside to having the state involved in a relationship. But I would like to get married again.”

    Then I let myself get drawn into a long conversation about how it work, possible legal structures, children, asset protection, what would happen if either of us were in the hospital and only family members were allowed to visit, whether or not you can “really” be married if you’re not legally married, etc.

    I try not to lie in general, and especially not to women. If my family or friends asked if I’d consider getting married again, I simply answer “yes” and if they assume that means TMM, oh well. But if a woman I’m dating asks, and I’m fairly certain she’s thinking TMM, then I would consider just answering “yes” to be lying by omission.

  45. @John Smith

     

    It is tricky man! Here is my rule now after I have had kids and 42 so I look at this issue different today.  Now, keep in mind that I don’t require someone that can cook, clean, etc and am very independent man.

    Fun, wild, kinky, laid back, low drama, selfless, pleasing you without expecting something in return (Loving/Giving) = Marriage material
    Overly Serious, hi drama, “knows her value”, lil princess, wish washy on what she will do with you, accusatory, really jealous, dramatic, up/down, etc (Wants to be Loved/Taking) = not marriage material

    Basically, it’s the opposite of what we typically would consider marriage material ;).  Because if she is not more fun than work, why would we wanna mess with all that headache and drama?  It would only get worse.

    IT HAS TO BE FUN AND I MEAN LOADS OF FUN or forget marriage in the USA.  Too risky.  Just my 2 cents….

    What you think BD?   Is my view of Fun being the # 1 rule too Guy Disney or unrealistic?   I am assuming that chemistry is high or it wouldn’t be fun of course.

    A “Fun / Work” Sliding Scale for us men to use.  We need shit simple and easy and if a women is too much hassle it seems hard for me to imagine the Pro’s overcoming the Con’s to try something so risky.   But now we are probably looking at less than 2% of women so I have stopped making this a focus lol.  I do not feel that love should be # 1 or even # 2 when trying to decide if 2 should pursue a marriage because it is based on emotions vs logic.

     

  46. BD can you elaborate on estate planning if you do not have the Typical Marriage?  Is that done at the same time as the pre-nup/cohabitation agreement?

    What about advanced directives and or power of Attorney privileges?

    Nothing personal, just guidelines.

    Basically if you are incapacitated, how you enable your partner to carry out your wishes in the same manner typically reserved for civil unions.

     

     

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