There are some men who agree monogamy doesn’t work, while at the same time are really uncomfortable with the concept of an open, poly, or nonmonogamous relationship. I know that’s a contradictory stance, bordering on cognitive dissonance, but Societal Programming and Obsolete Biological Wiring make people think in dumb ways and do dumb things.

Two ways these men attempt to circumvent their own internal contradictions about sex are via conditional monogamy and one-way monogamy. I get a lot of email and comments asking about this, and I’ve seen a lot of men attempt both of these things over the years. Today, I will address both… though you can probably already guess what I’m about to tell you in regards to their long-term effectiveness.

Conditional Monogamy

Conditional monogamy is a form of monogamy where you and your girlfriend or wife make a gentlemen’s agreement that you will be monogamous only to her, but only as long as a certain sexual condition remains true. Usually, this means that she will fuck you X number of times per week. As soon as she stops having sex with you at that level of frequency, then you are allowed to go have sex with other women.

Men who are experienced in how women think can probably already see the problem with this. Conditional monogamy is an extremely masculine, guy-logical arrangement. As I’ve talked about before, guy logic is fantastic… when dealing with other men. When dealing with women, guy logic is a temporary condition before it magically transforms into woman logic, which is to say, no logic at all.

Every single time I have seen a man attempt conditional monogamy with a woman, it starts out fine and ends blowing up in his face later (assuming the relationship or marriage lasts long enough, that is). Every. Single. Time. Not once have I seen it work over a prolonged period. The reason is that women do not conform to extreme guy-logical structures like this long-term with a man they’re having sex with.

It always works out like this: You sit down and logically, rationally explain to your girlfriend/wife that you need sex and that you’ll only have sex with her as long as she keeps fucking you twice a week (or whatever). As soon as she fails to have sex with you on demand, twice a week, you will go out and start banging other women on the side, but you promise to not do it unless she goes below sex twice a week.

If you get an agreement with her, she nods her head and agrees to your guy-logic.

She then promptly forgets about it and you both proceed with your monogamous relationship, which includes all the aspects of monogamy, such as drama, arguments, rules, compromises, financial expense, financial risk, betaization, resentment, and reduced sex. Conditional monogamy is still monogamy, so while you are conditionally monogamous, you’re monogamous, meaning you’re a beta (at least to some degree), and she’s going to treat you like one, at least eventually.

Then one day she stops having sex with you twice a week. This is almost 100% guaranteed to happen eventually, assuming the relationship lasts long enough. Let me repeat that. This is almost 100% guaranteed to happen eventually, assuming the relationship lasts long enough (particularly if you live together, but even if you don’t).

The only way this can’t happen is if you end up with an extremely bizarre and rare exception to the rule in terms of a woman with an unusually and ridiculously high sex drive who also never gets sexually bored with a man she lives with in the long-term. Odds of you actually ending up with a woman like this? Less than 5%. And by the way, this also only happens if she never gains any significant weight and you remain sexually attracted to her forever. Now we’ve dropped below 5% and into the 2% Rule.

So about six months later or year later (or whenever) when, not if, but when she stops having sex with you twice a week, you fist pump and run right out and go have sex with a 21 year-old cheerleader. As soon as your girlfriend/wife finds out, or when you tell her you’re going to do this, what do you think she’ll say? How do you think she’ll react?

Do you seriously think she’ll say, “Ah, yes Joe, per our logical arrangement we configured a year ago, you are now allowed to fuck other women on the side. Have fun fucking your cheerleader! Just be home by 6pm, please.”?

If you actually think this, YOU ARE STUPID. You do not understand women or female psychology in any way whatsoever.

Instead, she’s going to have a meltdown of nuclear proportions. She’s going to throw drama at you like you’ve never seen in your fucking life. She’ll scream, yell, threaten to leave you, and might even throw things at you. Then, like a dumbass, you’re going to use your guy-logic (haha!) to try to calm her down (waaaahaha!) and set her straight (hahahaha!) by reminding her of what she agreed to (bwaaaahahahaha!). And she’ll throw a frying pan at your head. Good job.

To you, guy-logical-man, you’re simply following through on a clear agreement that you both agreed to like logical adults.

To her, feminine-emotional-woman, you are in a committed, monogamous relationship and now YOU’RE CHEATING ON ME! You SON OF A BITCH! And you want to do it with some STUPID SLUT! (Woman translation for the word “slut” in this context: A woman who is younger or skinnier than her.) You’re disrespecting me and treating me LIKE SHIT!!! HOW DARE YOU! You think I’m going to let you go fuck another woman?!? WHO DO YOU THINK I AM?!? Let me scream at you for an hour and explain a few things to you, little man…

Drama, drama, fighting, screaming, then she later calls her best friend / orbiter / sister / mom, and they, of course, agree you’re being a total asshole and that she should probably leave you.

This is exactly what happens every time men try conditional monogamy. Your girlfriend or wife is not a logical man executing a business deal. She’s an emotional, irrational woman in a romantic relationship where it’s very hard for her to think rationally. True, some aspects of a relationship must be logical to some degree (particularly if you live together), and she must agree to at least some of these things. However, since she’s a woman, none of these things can include a complete relationship 180, like “we’re 100% monogamous” to “now I’m going to fuck other people.”

Conditional monogamy is a drama time bomb. You’re simply guaranteeing future drama in your relationship. If you don’t like drama, you can’t do it. You must always be having sex with other women from the first moment you meet her, all the way to when you move in together, and after, following the step-by-step system I outline in this book. That way, there’s never a 180 where she has to act like a guy-logical man.

One-Way Monogamy

One-way monogamy, or “one-sided monogamy,” or polygamy (which is what it really is at the core) is when the two people make a verbal agreement that states that the man is allowed to fuck other women, but the woman is not allowed to fuck anyone except the man, forever. It’s essentially an extreme Alpha Male 1.0 version of Guy Disney.

As I’ve talked about before, one-way monogamy might work in some parts of the Muslim or African worlds, but it will not work in the Western world. Men don’t try one-way monogamy as often as they try conditional monogamy, but of all the men I’ve seen in the Western world attempt one-way monogamy, I have never seen it last past about one year. Literally never. Either the relationships fails (usually meaning she leaves him), or the woman stays with him but cheats on him behind his back in an effort to either get back at him or to make things more “fair.” Often, the woman is prompted to do this by her Western female friends and family members.

If all you want in life is a long string of very brief relationships, then I guess go ahead and give one-way monogamy a shot. But if you want a relationship or marriage in the Western world to last much longer than a year, then you must either agree to normal, two-way monogamy (which, of course, doesn’t work if you want to be long-term happy), or a nonmonogamous relationship where you can get some on the side, and she can too if she wants.

If she wants is italicized because, as I’ve explained in great detail in my books, it’s extremely common for women in MLTR’s and OLTR’s to not have sex with other men while you’re having sex with other women. In about 50% of my non-FB relationships, the woman wasn’t having sex with other men at all. In the other 50%, sometimes she did, and sometimes she didn’t. In very long-term nomono relationships, many women either never sleep with another guy, or if they do, they do for a while and then they eventually stop because they don’t want to anymore.

Women are not like men. Women don’t crave sex in quite the same way men do. Women don’t follow the same sexual cycles as men. Just because you’re going to be always out having sex with women doesn’t mean she’ll always be out having sex with men, even if she has the option to do so. Other men who have had long-term nonmonogamous relationships will back up what I’m saying; some women fuck other guys, but a hell of a lot don’t because they just don’t have the interest. The older they are, the more this is likely to be true. (This meshes nicely with my requirement that a woman in a live-in OLTR should be at least 30.)

This means that, strangely, women are less likely to fuck other men in an open relationship than they are in a one-way monogamy relationship. I know that doesn’t make any logical sense, but we’re talking about women here, and that’s exactly what I’ve seen in all my time researching this over the last decade.

Conditional monogamy and one-way monogamy; one based in guy-logic and the other based in Guy Disney, and they both don’t work (unless you don’t mind drama and/or shorter relationships). As always, I will state that if you don’t mind drama, arguments, or shorter-lasting relationships, you are more than welcome to ignore all my advice and do whatever you like. But if you want something happy and long-lasting, neither conditional nor one-way monogamy will work for you. Normal monogamy also won’t make you long-term happy, so you’re going to have to master FB / MLTR / OLTR for long-term, consistent happiness.

45 Comments on “Conditional Monogamy and One-Way Monogamy

  1. women are less likely to fuck other men in an open relationship than they are in a one-way monogamy relationship. 

    I concur, a lot of red pill men can’t get their head wrapped around this.

    If you are the type of man that can handle an open relationship, it shows a big amount of balls, and social/sexual proof.  Your woman’s hypergamous desire is for you, and all these other guys out there look like idiots.

    That being said, I have seen a fair number of men on the opposite side of this dynamic, particularly beta and feminist males in the “poly community”.  They’re wife/gf took the ambition to open the relationshup, and these are the types that whine and complain about being lonely when their OLTR goes out on a date, versus taking advantage of the free time by getting ripped or rich.

     

     

  2. “one-way monogamy”, there is nothing monogamous in that. It’s hillarious that you refer to polygyny in these convoluted terms. Did you pull that one off your ass or there really are out there other people moronic enough to calls this monogamy?

     

    Why not call polyamory or open relationships “multipe parallel monogamy” while we’re at it?

     

    XD

  3. Perhaps the most “successful” or at least common form of one-way monogamy is the *female* instigated “blind eye monogamy” (go and screw who you like just don’t tell me) which allows older wives, who definitely no longer want to have sex with their husbands but most likely no-one else as well, to outsource sex without (hopefully) endangering their quality of life, big house, car, kid’s schools, etc and allowing the man to get sex without the stress of divorce, losing access to the kids etc.

    Whilst clearly neither are “monogamy”, the terms clearly make sense in context as they apply to people not ready or strong enough to accept that monogamy doesn’t work and are clearly a feature/bug of monogamy itself

     

  4. I don’t understand why some people get so hung-up on a damn term. But oh well, great article as always.

  5. Most people would rather choose to be in conditional/normal monogamy especially for the rich/famous people. Because imagine if a man shows he’s OI being a playboy at the age of 30+, or himself being found to visit escorts. How does it feel for him to being shown on national tv himself living in a muslim country.

    A woman may choose to stay with a man who’s rich, or most women would rather stay with a rich husband than divorcing him (we’re talking about outside america) where feminism is not that radical yet, because they see divorce laws do not benefit them that much as the gynocrisy is not strong yet

  6. Because imagine if a man shows he’s OI being a playboy at the age of 30+, or himself being found to visit escorts. How does it feel for him to being shown on national tv himself living in a muslim country.

    That IF he stupidly choose to being “famous”. You should avoid fame as ruthlessly as you can, especially when you’ve already rich. There’s no point doing it anymore.

    With fame in your side, basically you’ve trading it to one of the most important life’s quality any human being can attain: FREEDOM.

    Happiness Principle:
    ***Always avoiding mediocre people and any unnecessary attention from them***

  7. “The U.S. avoided high inflation by letting the dollar circulate globally. It also needs to restrain the printing of dollars to avoid a dollar devaluation. Then what should it do when it runs out of dollars?
    The Americans came up with a solution: issuing debt to bring the dollar back to the U.S. The Americans started to play a game of printing money with one hand and borrowing money with the other hand. Printing money can make money. Borrowing money can also make money. This financial economy (using money to make money) is much easier than the real (industry-based) economy. Why will it bother with manufacturing industries that have only low value-adding capabilities?
    Since August 15, 1971, the U.S. has gradually stopped its real economy and moved into a virtual economy. It has become an “empty” economy state. Today’s U.S. Gross Domestic Product (GDP) has reached US$18 trillion, but only $5 trillion is from the real economy.
    By issuing debt, the U.S. brings a large amount of dollars from overseas, back to the U.S.’s three big markets: the commodity market, the Treasury Bills market, and the stock market. The U.S. repeats this cycle to make money: printing money, exporting money overseas, and bringing money back. The U.S. has thus become a financial empire.”
     The People’s Liberation Army’s most influential strategist, Major-General Qiao Liang

    https://www.goldmoney.com/research/goldmoney-insights/americas-financial-war-strategy

    Hey BD, even the Chinese know the West is dying

     

     

     

  8. Perhaps the most “successful” or at least common form of one-way monogamy is the *female* instigated “blind eye monogamy” 

     

    That is BS on many levels:

    – It’s probably the most common form on one-way monogamy

    – Assumes women instigate this, as if men are victim.

    – Causes drama/ruins families when you’re caught cheating.

    Not that it matter, the beta males out there will do this anyway.

  9. That being said, I have seen a fair number of men on the opposite side of this dynamic, particularly beta and feminist males in the “poly community”.  They’re wife/gf took the ambition to open the relationshup, and these are the types that whine and complain about being lonely when their OLTR goes out on a date, versus taking advantage of the free time by getting ripped or rich.

    Yes. I’ve dealt with some of the same men.

    “one-way monogamy”, there is nothing monogamous in that.

    Correct.

    Did you pull that one off your ass or there really are out there other people moronic enough to calls this monogamy?

    Go through the comments over the last several months, particularly where I talk about Pink Firefly, and you’ll see several guys calling it that. I don’t “pull things out of my ass.”

    I don’t understand why some people get so hung-up on a damn term.

    Certain personality types get worked up about about the use of certain terms. I addressed them here.

    Perhaps the most “successful” or at least common form of one-way monogamy is the *female* instigated “blind eye monogamy” (go and screw who you like just don’t tell me) which allows older wives, who definitely no longer want to have sex with their husbands but most likely no-one else as well, to outsource sex without (hopefully) endangering their quality of life, big house, car, kid’s schools, etc and allowing the man to get sex without the stress of divorce, losing access to the kids etc.

    I address that here. I’ve always called that “tolerated cheating” or “Mediterranean marriages.” The guy cheats, the woman hates it and gives him constant drama about it, but she puts up with it forever and doesn’t leave him, because she wants the lifestyle or “for the good of the kids.” It’s not a happy relationship structure, only for high-drama men.

    Hey BD, even the Chinese know the West is dying

    I know.

    Not that it matter, the beta males out there will do this anyway.

    Most men, Alphas or betas, will eventually get sexual with other women if the relationship lasts long enough. Men were never designed to be long-term monogamous.

    The only question is if they do it dishonestly and in a high-drama way by cheating, or honestly and in a lower-drama way via an OLTR or MLTR. As always, the choice is theirs.

  10. In about 50% of my non-FB relationships, the woman wasn’t having sex with other men at all. In the other 50%, sometimes she did, and sometimes she didn’t. In very long-term nomono relationships, many women either never sleep with another guy, or if they do, they do for a while and then they eventually stop because they don’t want to anymore.

    That has been mine and my friends’ experience, indeed. The catch seems to be whether you care if they hook up with other people or not. I don’t give a damn, so ironically, the girls I go out with don’t use that freedom often (usually just once in the beginning stages, as a shit-test). But every time I see a guy prone to jealousy trying an open relationship, the girl is guaranteed to sleep around.

  11. Hi BD,

    You don’t actually address the attitude problem men have which results an attempt to have an conditional or on-way monogamous relationship –  the biological need for men to prevent women getting fucked by other men.

    I guess there is no shortcuts in changing your mindset but I’m having trouble with the thought that my MLTR or OLTR fucks other guys on the side. I have no problem when FBs fuck some other guys but when I have an emotional connection with MLTR or OLTR, then I’m having some trouble not to care about it. Of course I don’t bitch about it and act cool but the thought is still there – even when I’m laying next to my FB/2nd MLTR after sex and I know that my other MLTR is doing same thing with her FB.

    How did you shift your mindset and stopped caring (or became strong enough to not make it even an internal problem)?

  12. I’ve been very lucky in that I’ve never been a jealous guy and could care less what my girls are doing when not with me.  I’m too busy with other things to really care which makes this 2.0 style fit really well with me.  And as per another comment above, most girls don’t even bother with other guys if they’re really into you.  I mean eventually they get bored but you can stretch that out for years.  I have 2 MLTR‘s and neither has hooked up with any other guys yet even though they know they can.  One tried Bumble for a bit but didn’t find any decent guys I guess.

    I understand how this can be a huge challenge to rid yourself of jealousy if you’re prone to it but I assure you, it’s not as bad as you think it’ll be.   With mine we also have  a discretion agreement that we don’t really talk about any details and if i’m hanging out with another girl, I’m just “busy” that night or have plans without getting into specifics.  Your mileage may vary though-some people like to hear details, some don’t.

    I’m certain BD has some guidelines to help combat jealousy in his books like Unchained Man. Also JJ Roberts has a book called Sex 3.0 that gives some good tips on the same subject.

  13. There are two other versions I’ve seen in the wild: we’re both allowed to have sex with other girls, but not other guys. And, for bi guys, other same-sex FBs are allowed, but opposite sex ones are not. Any experience with either of those setups?

  14. I have an experience with conditional monogamy. I did not quite tell her I would go fuck other women if she started to say no to sex but I just made it very clear I would not tolerate such behavior. The result was that it worked in the sense that she was afraid of the consequences to the point that when she didn’t want to do it she would say some medical reasons, of course at some point it became clear shes making the stuff up. That is something that is hard to prove though so no matter how alpha you are this is a problem that can happen, unless you also told her at the start that you would do it even if she had a good excuse which she prob wouldnt agree to at the start anyway. In polygamy you dont need to care because if this happens you just go bang someone else anyway and then she probably wont avoid sex, in fact she is more likely to give you enthusiastic sex more often on her own to reduce the number of times you go somewhere else. Hence I was thinking of instead doing it like this: say you are not going to be monogamous with her but if she keeps you satisfied you wont have a reason to see others. This is a good one because you can still go fuck other women if you feel like it even if shes doing it enough because you can always say she wasnt enthusiastic enough or just need it more than once that day, but she will think you are monogamous with her and be happy, and you can do what you want. win win

  15. There are two other versions I’ve seen in the wild: we’re both allowed to have sex with other girls, but not other guys.

    I tried this one a few times with bi girls but they always rejected the idea immediately. I can understand why and don’t expect there will be many who will even say a hesitant yes to this. I can imagine the other example might work but is not applicable to most readers of this blog.

  16. You don’t actually address the attitude problem men have which results an attempt to have an conditional or on-way monogamous relationship –  the biological need for men to prevent women getting fucked by other men.

    I address that in great detail in my book, so much so that I have a term for it: OBW or Obsolete Biological Wiring. I didn’t address it in this particular article because that wasn’t the topic.

    I guess there is no shortcuts in changing your mindset but I’m having trouble with the thought that my MLTR or OLTR fucks other guys on the side.

    In this book and in this book I describe numerous field-tested jealousy reduction techniques that you can use to manage or even eliminate this irrational, outdated biological need.

    If other men can do it, you can do it. But the answer is not to throw your arms in the air in surrender and say, “My biology wants this so I guess I’m just screwed and just better go for monogamy which I know doesn’t work.”

    we’re both allowed to have sex with other girls, but not other guys.

    As with conditional and one-way, the odds are very low that will work in a long-term relationship. Eventually she’ll want to fuck other men (unless she’s very old). In short-term relationships it works fine. I have never seen that work in a long-term relationship. It usually just becomes monogamous or the woman fucks a dude.

    And, for bi guys, other same-sex FBs are allowed, but opposite sex ones are not.

    I have no experience with that, but with gay men (I don’t consider bi men “bi,” just gay) the entire system is different and much of my systems don’t apply. Gay men don’t (or rarely) have the problem of trying to be in a serious relationship with someone who demands absolute monogamy like we hetero men do; it’s a whole different thing with gay dudes.

    in fact she is more likely to give you enthusiastic sex more often on her own to reduce the number of times you go somewhere else

    This is very true. It’s yet another benefit of nonmonogamy.

    Hence I was thinking of instead doing it like this: say you are not going to be monogamous with her but if she keeps you satisfied you wont have a reason to see others.

    That is conditional monogamy. It won’t work. The split second you fuck another woman you’re in for drama.

    This is a good one because you can still go fuck other women if you feel like it even if shes doing it enough because you can always say she wasnt enthusiastic enough or just need it more than once that day, but she will think you are monogamous with her and be happy, and you can do what you want. win win

    Incorrect. You’re doing exactly what I said in the article to not do. You’re apply guy-logic to female behavior. She’s not going to put up with it (for very long). Lose lose.

  17. Incorrect. You’re doing exactly what I said in the article to not do. You’re apply guy-logic to female behavior. She’s not going to put up with it (for very long). Lose lose.

    My point was that I dont tell her and that I have no moral problem with that because I do not consider it dishonest since I outlined it to her at the start. If she wants to follow womans logic thats her problem not mine. Thats like saying that shes not going to show up to work or not pay taxes when she doesnt feel like it and not expect any consequences. In all of these cases the rules have been set clearly at the start and if one party suddenly starts doing something else all the consequences are their fault, nothing to do with any type of logic. You could then also say that women are going to make drama when they have to go to work when they dont feel like it or pay taxes when they dont feel like it.

  18. My point was that I dont tell her and that I have no moral problem with that because I do not consider it dishonest since I outlined it to her at the start. If she wants to follow womans logic thats her problem not mine. Thats like saying that shes not going to show up to work or not pay taxes when she doesnt feel like it and not expect any consequences. In all of these cases the rules have been set clearly at the start and if one party suddenly starts doing something else all the consequences are their fault, nothing to do with any type of logic. You could then also say that women are going to make drama when they have to go to work when they dont feel like it or pay taxes when they dont feel like it.

    Look at all that logic, logic, logic, logic.

    For the readers, this is a very good example of how many men view this, so I’ll analyze it sentence by sentence. It’s a great illustration.

    My point was that I dont tell her and that I have no moral problem with that because I do not consider it dishonest since I outlined it to her at the start.

    Pure logic. As if all that rational verbalization will actually accomplish anything with a irrational, emotional woman in a romantic relationship with you.

    If she wants to follow womans logic thats her problem not mine.

    Incorrect. It will be your problem when she throws drama at you, which she will.

    As always, if you respond that you don’t care, then feel free to ignore my advice and do whatever you want, but if you don’t want drama from the women in your life, you need to acknowledge they are emotional, irrational creatures and not creatures of guy-logic like you are.

    Thats like saying that shes not going to show up to work or not pay taxes when she doesnt feel like it and not expect any consequences.

    That’s how a man views it: pure logic. Here’s how a woman views it: She “can’t” pay her taxes because “it’s not her fault” and the government are being “assholes” by garnishing her wages. She will then go on to complain about how “shitty” the government is being to her for the next year to anyone who will listen.

    In all of these cases the rules have been set clearly at the start and if one party suddenly starts doing something else all the consequences are their fault, nothing to do with any type of logic.

    For the readers, note how he’s saying this has nothing to do with logic, when in fact the entire issue is the logic he’s using as a filter to view this scenario.

    You could then also say that women are going to make drama when they have to go to work when they dont feel like it or pay taxes when they dont feel like it.

    That’s exactly what I’m saying, and that’s exactly what women do whenever they feel like they “can’t” go to work or “can’t” pay their taxes. It’s not their fault, it’s the other parties’ fault, and they’re going to bitch about it to everyone.

    Your comment was a fantastic illustration of how men use guy-logic to apply to women, better than I could have described, so thank you.

  19. That’s exactly what I’m saying, and that’s exactly what women do whenever they feel like they “can’t” go to work or “can’t” pay their taxes. It’s not their fault, it’s the other parties’ fault, and they’re going to bitch about it to everyone.

    I agree, but I don’t care if she complains to everyone how shit I am. In fact even if she tells me I am an asshole I am ok with that as long as she continues visiting my bed. Like you often say yourself, care about what people do not what they say. If you consider this drama that you want to avoid then I don’t consider it drama and don’t mind.

    But if you think this will result in her leaving me entirely and not coming back than thats something else, then I might have to rethink the approach.

    Pure logic. As if all that rational verbalization will actually accomplish anything with a irrational, emotional woman in a romantic relationship with you.

    Yes I sometimes tell women I am a rational and shes an emotional and so she needs someone like me to guide her to make the right choices and decisions while she can be all fluffy and puffy. Sometimes this makes them angry though, but they dont leave so I don’t care. If they would start leaving because of it then I would reconsider. If she starts making real drama I can always next her.

  20. I have no experience with that, but with gay men (I don’t consider bi men “bi,” just gay)

    Interesting. So is it your view that guys can’t be attracted to both guys and girls, or that being attracted to guys changes the game so much that it’s best to lump them in with guys who are only attracted to guys?

     

    Also, in a different vein, I don’t understand the obsession with having a chick that doesn’t fuck other dudes.

    The best lays I’ve had have been with chicks with triple digit lay counts. I *always* want chicks I’m seeing to see other guys. Not only does it take the pressure off me (you want to talk to someone every day? Great, why don’t you call up John) it also means they might learn something and become a better lover.

  21. @BD: The comment analyst is very clear and AlphaOmega demonstrates perfectly your point of ”an Alpha who doesn’t mind, or even love, drama” (our definition of drama, not his). Thank you both.

    Btw I’ve always thought bi and gay ppl have more trouble being loyal (monogamy) and they have the need to switch sex partners more often than us hetero. Media always claims that gay ppl have far more STDs risks due to this.

  22. This is mostly a problem in the US, not so much in Europe.

    Millions and millions of men in Europe go to prostitutes, basically every single day because it’s legal. In Germany a curvy and sexy prostitute costs between 20-30€ on average which is like 10 times cheaper than in the US from what I know and alos way cheaper than going to a date. Many men are married yet their wives never find out because there are no traces left, since most of those women work in brothels, who aren’t really noticeable.  So you either fuck prostitutes or do FB.

    MLTR / OLTR are like a sexual bancruptcy declaration.

    However women on the other hand might cheat on you anyway, there is nothing you can do about it and you will never know for sure.

  23. Interesting. So is it your view that guys can’t be attracted to both guys and girls, or that being attracted to guys changes the game so much that it’s best to lump them in with guys who are only attracted to guys?

    The latter, but I’m not having that discussion here.

    The comment analyst is very clear and AlphaOmega demonstrates perfectly your point of ”an Alpha who doesn’t mind, or even love, drama” (our definition of drama, not his).

    Correct. He doesn’t mind drama as long as the woman stays with him. Many men are like him, and these men will often disagree with or question my advice and viewpoints.

    This is mostly a problem in the US, not so much in Europe.

    Correct, this is much less of a problem in Europe, but not because prostitutes are legal. Damn near everyone in the US fucks prostitutes even though it’s illegal, the same way everyone damn near everyone uses drugs even though they’re illegal. And there are plenty of cheap prostitutes here (though it is generally more expensive here, yes.)

    It’s rather because people in Europe, lacking the America’s puritanical religious/historical roots, have much less of an expectation of absolute sexual monogamy than people do here in the US.

    For example, if a wife catches her husband cheating on her in the USA, divorce is eventually likely, (unless he’s very wealthy or powerful) and most or all of her female friends and family members will encourage this, even if he’s been a decently good husband. Even if they stay together, it will be treated like a super serious thing that forever changes the marriage, requiring changes in how they communicate, marital counseling, sexual addiction rehab, blah blah blah.

    If a wife catches her husband cheating on her in Europe, she’ll give him major drama and throw a frying pan at him, but she won’t leave him (at least not for that reason alone), and a week later it won’t be any big deal. (For the nitpickers, I realize not all European nations are like this; I’m generalizing.)

  24. Correct. He doesn’t mind drama as long as the woman stays with him. Many men are like him, and these men will often disagree with or question my advice and viewpoints.

    Partly correct. It depends on the amount and type of drama. But in general its true that we differ in that you have zero drama tolerance whereas I find some small amounts of drama hilarious and it serves me as entertainment. Bigger drama I would also want to avoid so if I start getting there I will remember your advice.

    But when I see a girl tolerates me seeing other women but clearly is not cool about it (yet) and would make trouble out of it then I also make a choice to be selective about what I tell her to the point of not answering some questions. Then she starts to feel a bit like its monogamy and cause less trouble. That was actually my original idea. So it was to make less drama in fact.

    If a wife catches her husband cheating on her in Europe, she’ll give him major drama and throw a frying pan at him, but she won’t leave him (at least not for that reason alone), and a week later it won’t be any big deal. (For the nitpickers, I realize not all European nations are like this; I’m generalizing.)

    This sounds like Mediterranean marriage. I am not sure if it would work like that in the north. But in the former you can probably expect the wife to do that as well.

  25. You don’t actually address the attitude problem men have which results an attempt to have an conditional or on-way monogamous relationship –  the biological need for men to prevent women getting fucked by other men.

    I address that in great detail inmy book, so much so that I have a term for it: OBW or Obsolete Biological Wiring. I didn’t address it in this particular article because that wasn’t the topic.

    I guess there is no shortcuts in changing your mindset but I’m having trouble with the thought that my MLTR or OLTR fucks other guys on the side.

    Inthis bookand inthis bookI describe numerous field-tested jealousy reduction techniques that you can use to manage or even eliminate this irrational, outdated biological need.
    If other men can do it, you can do it. But the answer is not to throw your arms in the air in surrender and say, “My biology wants this so I guess I’m just screwed and just better go for monogamy which I know doesn’t work.”

    Thanks for the answer I guess I have shopping to do then.

    And no, I’m not going to throw my arms in the air. This becoming Alpha Male 2.0 process takes hard work and I know it. Just trying to find ways to make it a bit easier without taking shortcuts which may mess up the end result. 🙂

     

  26. Damn near everyone in the US fucks prostitutes even though it’s illegal, the same way everyone damn near everyone uses drugs even though they’re illegal. And there are plenty of cheap prostitutes here (though it is generally more expensive here, yes.)
    For example, if a wife catches her husband cheating on her in the USA, divorce is eventually likely, (unless he’s very wealthy or powerful) and most or all of her female friends and family members will encourage this, even if he’s been a decently good husband. Even if they stay together, it will be treated like a super serious thing that forever changes the marriage, requiring changes in how they communicate, marital counseling, sexual addiction rehab, blah blah blah.
    If a wife catches her husband cheating on her in Europe, she’ll give him major drama and throw a frying pan at him, but she won’t leave him (at least not for that reason alone), and a week later it won’t be any big deal. (For the nitpickers, I realize not all European nations are like this; I’m generalizing.)

    I guess it’s also more safe as well in Europe. Since you can buy sex in Europe legally the pimps and prostitutes make sure they are clean in anyway, therefore men will have less concerns about having sex with them.

    Since you mentioned women and dealing with cheating: from my experience it seems that a player and cheater can get away with cheating on his wife cause for some reason she will tolerate it, despite financial reasons. Have you ever done a topic on why women often put up with cheating, even when being cheated on multiple times? I don’t think religious and social reasons are the reason for it. I feel like women respect you more if you cheat on them, as foolish as it sounds. You will hardly find a guy who is not going to kick her out of his house if she cheated on him except he is a harcore beta.

  27. If a brilliant GreenDragon comes up with a method to do Mediterranean marriage, but somehow minimize the drama received each time you cheat to quite insignificant, do you think it’s still worth the effort to make OLTR/OM work?

    In other words, do you think guys like AlphaOmega should take the effort to follow OLTR/OM lifestyle, despite having a good drama-tolerance (thus his long-term happiness isn’t affected much) ?

  28. I feel like women respect you more if you cheat on them, as foolish as it sounds.

    Because its normal and natural thing for a man to do – not to be dishonest, that no – but to want to fuck many women and also to actually go and do it. It is normal and natural for a woman to be attracted to a normal and natural men. It is only things like religion and societal conventions that make her think otherwise.

    In other words, do you think guys like AlphaOmega should take the effort to follow OLTR/OM lifestyle, despite having a good drama-tolerance (thus his long-term happiness isn’t affected much) ?

    I am not sure good drama tolerance is how I would put it. For me its a balance. You always lose something, either you have to put up with this and that or you have to make extra effort out of your way here and there. It really depends for me on case by case. Remember its always a matter of what you are prepared to sacrifice.

    And I don’t think I would want a standard Mediterranean marriage.

    Actually for me there are two types of drama: does it inconvenience me directly or not? In first case it annoys me greatly and I have very little tolerance for it, in the second case I often just find it funny. The drama question is also a bit different with me because whilst most men seem to think its best to avoid arguments with a woman or that they cant win etc, I seem to be rather good at making the woman speechless in a short amount of time. Not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing. But for me if it means she shuts up and continues to fuck me I dont care that much what she tells about me to other people. If she wants to get some beta orbiters who she complains to about how bad I am to her, that is fine with me.

  29. the tone that is hinted at here is that a female only wants to have sex with you and be desirable when she is attracted to you.  conditional should not be necessary and worse admits a flawed situation by its necessity.  a young cutie that i knew in college, European, told me that she felt that women get fat after a while in marriage as they no longer desire their husbands or find being attractive and sexual useful.  she felt that this was to them preferable to the disgust of having sex with a man that did not turn them on.  the takeaway here is that you must create a situation where she does not feel trapped with a man who does not turn her on but rather is increasingly desirable.  a man getting more successful who she does not completely own who is able to attract more women as he gets better at all things, sex and accomplishments is quite opposite the man who is owned be her alone, who has given up many options sexually and has no desire to explore them, and must force her to do something.  he will slow down in other ways and become more of a non upwardly mobile working schlub and cease to stimulate her.  even highly accomplished men who are monogamous yield sexual power to their wives.  this and negotiating conditional sex and fitness give her more power over him.  when a female has any power over a man, she loses desire for him.  this is why men must lead at all times in as many areas of home and relationship life as he can make possible, including a lot of the stuff that women claim is their domain.  remember, it is for her happiness.

     

    i recently used the above discussion on a female in a discussion about how she does not want her man sexing up other women.  amazingly i found that if you just ask them to consent to something, you will be amazed that they will accept it.  if you never ask, the answer is always no.

  30. amazingly i found that if you just ask them to consent to something, you will be amazed that they will accept it.  if you never ask, the answer is always no.

    Why is that amazing? Its obvious not just with women. If you dont ask for a pay raise at work, or to be relocated, for example, its also unlikely to happen. If you ask the answer is often yes. Of course sometimes you get approached but that usually means either desperation on the other side or that you could have probably done better (get that pay rise earlier, or get more; if women approach you then you can probably get better looking women if you make the effort etc).

  31. Because its normal and natural thing for a man to do – not to be dishonest, that no – but to want to fuck many women and also to actually go and do it. It is normal and natural for a woman to be attracted to a normal and natural men. It is only things like religion and societal conventions that make her think otherwise.

    It’s a natural thing from a man’s pov but is it from a woman’s pov as well? With that being said, if women are attracted to womanizers because it’s normal to them, then why isn’t it it for men? Most men definately don’t want their wives to fool around witb other men, they get jelous. A woman is more likely to share her man with other women.

     

    I recently saw an old interview of Magic Johnson and his wife, after he was diagnosed with HIV. Back then Magic admitted he had slept with 300-500 women a YEAR and yet his wife, sat next to him holding his hand. Obviously money might have played a big role for her to stay with him, despite looking like a fool infront of the world, since her husband had not only fucked thousands of women behind her back but also contracted HIV. She just said, she knew Magic was probably having other women but as long as she didn’t see them, she was ok.

  32. Because its normal and natural thing for a man to do – not to be dishonest, that no – but to want to fuck many women and also to actually go and do it. It is normal and natural for a woman to be attracted to a normal and natural men. It is only things like religion and societal conventions that make her think otherwise.

    It’s a natural thing from a man’s pov but is it from a woman’s pov as well? With that being said, if women are attracted to womanizers because it’s normal to them, then why isn’t it it for men? Most men definately don’t want their wives to fool around witb other men, they get jelous. A woman is more likely to share her man with other women.

    Exactly because of what I said above. Its normal and natural for a man to want many women. The same is not the case for women. Most women dont want to do that. And indeed there is no reason why they should need that generally speaking.

  33. Today.. NO regular post again, BD?

    Patience, my son, patience. Just because you don’t see it a the usual time doesn’t mean it’s not coming that day. Calmness, serenity, outcome independence… work on it.

    Have you ever done a topic on why women often put up with cheating, even when being cheated on multiple times?

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2014/07/10/powerful-men-cheat-women-put-up-with-it/

    If a brilliant GreenDragon comes up with a method to do Mediterranean marriage, but somehow minimize the drama received each time you cheat to quite insignificant, do you think it’s still worth the effort to make OLTR/OM work?

    I can’t answer that because every man here will have a different definition for what an “insignificant amount of drama” means.

    In other words, do you think guys like AlphaOmega should take the effort to follow OLTR/OM lifestyle, despite having a good drama-tolerance (thus his long-term happiness isn’t affected much) ?

    I can’t speak about him specifically, but speaking in general, no. Alpha Male 1.0‘s who either like drama or don’t mind drama won’t see the point of having an OLTR at all, for any reason. They would far rather experience regular bitchy drama their woman than take the chance she might fuck another guy. (They still take that chance with monogamy of course, but you know what I mean.)

  34. Millions and millions of men in Europe go to prostitutes, basically every single day because it’s legal. In Germany a curvy and sexy prostitute costs between 20-30€ on average which is like 10 times cheaper than in the US from what I know and alos way cheaper than going to a date. Many men are married yet their wives never find out because there are no traces left, since most of those women work in brothels, who aren’t really noticeable.  So you either fuck prostitutes or do FB.
    MLTR / OLTR are like a sexual bancruptcy declaration.
    @BD: You didn’t comment on “MLTR / OLTR are like a sexual bancruptcy declaration.” What can you say on this?

    Berti says basically better to go see escorts discreetly than MLTR/OLTR, which requires opening up with agirlfriend/wife and possible drama breakup?

    I also think it’s easier and cheaper in the long term.

     

  35. I also think it’s easier and cheaper in the long term.

    What is not cheaper in long term? Good looking good attitude escort will cost you at least 100 euro per visit maybe several 100s. Good looking good attitude girl with benefits costs maybe one drink at the start and then the drinks you offer her at your place if any, thats like a few euros per visit. But if you have lots of bank notes to burn sure escorts would be easier.

  36. @BD: You didn’t comment on “MLTR / OLTR are like a sexual bancruptcy declaration.” What can you say on this?

    I don’t understand the analogy.

    Berti says basically better to go see escorts discreetly than MLTR/OLTR, which requires opening up with agirlfriend/wife and possible drama breakup?

    No, Berti is pro-monogamy-with-cheating, and has some very strange views about relationships. I’m discussing it with him in the comments here and you can see my responses to him there, but my primary response is this.

    I also think it’s easier and cheaper in the long term.

    Incorrect. Hookers cost far more money than FB‘s or MLTR‘s, even if the hookers are cheap. It’s not even close. Most FB‘s and MLTR‘s I’ve had over the years cost me zero dollars most times we met up.

  37. Incorrect. Hookers cost far more money than FB’s or MLTR’s, even if the hookers are cheap. It’s not even close. Most FB’s and MLTR’s I’ve had over the years cost me zero dollars most times we met up.

    Same. I dont get what so many men have about women costing them a lot. Dating always costs me zero or near zero not counting the stuff they drink at my house. For the first date sometimes I pay for the drink sometimes we split, so far I have not seen that it makes much difference to the outcome (and it does not make a difference to me financially). I almost never did spending larger amounts of money on a woman and if I remember when I did the outcome was never what I wanted.

  38. In Germany a curvy and sexy prostitute costs between 20-30€ on average…

    I’m no expert on German prostitutes, but I would really wonder about the quality of the encounter you’d get for €30 with a prostitute in Germany.

    And there’s another thing: whatever the cost of the encounter, you have to pay it every time with a prostitute. I spend nothing or virtually nothing on my fuck buddies, and they’re ongoing encounters, even if sometimes irregular (though usually not). Depending on the time of day, we might have a quick drink afterwards, which if we’ve hooked up at my place I would supply, but that’s hardly a big financial outlay. But usually there’s nothing.

  39. I copy women; serial monogamy.

    Without cohabitation. A little bit of open or polyamoury if they are open to that.

  40. I disagree that women in an open or FWB relationship won’t fuck other guys or will rarely do so. You kidding me?

    If the girl is under 30 and a 7+ looks with a social life, she WILL fuck other guys. She will probably fuck a LOT of guys, she’s just not going to tell you, she doesn’t want to look like a slut.  Plus it makes her look good if she ‘can but doesnt’, why would she bother telling you if she fucks someone or not ?

    It’s just ego masturbation to think if you give her permission to fuck freely that she won’t. Women like to fuck and it’s a million times easier for them to do so. So if you are going to MLTR or be open, expect her to get dicked down on the reg whether you know about it or not.

     

     

     

     

  41. It’s just ego masturbation to think if you give her permission to fuck freely that she won’t.

    My real-life, documented experiences over the last 12 years are not ego masturbation. It’s objective fact. To repeat what I said in the article, in 50% of my non-FB relationships, the women did not have sex with other men while they were seeing me. (Many other men have relayed similar results.) See how I clearly said non-FB relationships, not FB or FWB relationships, where indeed these women did fuck other guys.

    You are the one mentally masturbating. You’re using feelings, fears, and assumptions. I’m using facts.

  42. I’m not using fear-mongering unless you define the woman fucking other guys as scary. I’m saying if you expect the woman NOT to fuck other guys ‘because you don’t care’ you’re just doing another ‘one-way’ monogamy game mentally.

    If you think because a woman says she isn’t fucking other guys is proof she isn’t, that’s also dumb. Women are great at hiding that stuff.

    I’m saying that if you think she isn’t fucking other guys you’re probably ignorant. If you can’t handle that then yeah it’s your ego. If you think women in this generation don’t like to sleep around thats also silly. How the fuck do you know 50 percent didn’t sleep with anyone else? Because they told you? Lol.

    I’m actually being a realist. I don’t care If the women I date sleep with other people. You seem to.be invested that you’ll get more strange than she does because she ‘wont want to,’ which you won’t, any attractive woman can pull 10x that the guy can. Saying women don’t want to sleep around is also some blue pill theorizing shit.

  43. I’m saying that if you think she isn’t fucking other guys you’re probably ignorant.

    Yes. Clearly I know nothing about women, and clearly 100% of these women were all lying and taking the time to deceive me even though they clearly knew I was fucking other women, and they clearly knew I didn’t care if they were fucking other men.

    If you think women in this generation don’t like to sleep around thats also silly.

    That is not what I believe. That is the opposite of what I believe. I’ve even said women under age 23 are incapable of monogamy and will always be fucking other men.

    Dude, if you want to do one-way monogamy, just say so. It’s your life. Don’t beat around with bush with this irrelevant and inaccurate bullshit about what I believe.

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