I’ve often discussed the requirements a woman must have for a long-term, serious OLTR relationship, such as low drama, reasonably low jealousy, sex positivity, a long track record of dating you before she ever becomes an OLTR with near-zero problems, and so on.

However, I have not discussed an equally important aspect of OLTR, and that is the requirements you must meet in order to have one. Yes, you as a man have some requirements to meet, or else you should not have an OLTR, and instead just stick with FB’s and/or MLTR’s, which are also fantastic.

Over the years on this blog, I have seen a lot of readers object to or misunderstand OLTR. Once I explain your requirements for an OLTR, it will explain a lot of these objections and misunderstandings.

Here’s the bottom line for OLTR’s. Ready?

OLTR’s are only for older men with higher levels of game.

OLTR’s are hard. OLTR’s are complicated. Managing an OLTR requires strong game, a solid frame, confidence, outcome independence, and a decent amount of experience with women, and not just pick-up experience, but relationship experience as well. A game beginner is not going to have these things. A young man is very unlikely to have these things (he may have some of them, but not all).

Therefore, an OLTR is only for men who are a little older and who have a decent level of game and relationship skill. I’ve said it before, and today I’ll say it more clearly – no man should even think about having an OLTR until he is at least 30 years old. 35 is even better. As I explained here, I don’t consider most modern-day men as full adults until age 34 anyway. (I really hate saying that, but it’s the truth. Western cultural collapse and all that.)

These two requirements, that you are at least a little older and have a stronger level of game and woman experience, answer a lot of objections, questions, and misunderstandings I’ve seen some of you raise regarding OLTR’s. Here’s just a few examples from the last few years:

1. How the hell is a younger couple supposed to do the things you suggest??? Like have a separate residence or whatever???

A younger man shouldn’t be part of a couple. A younger man should not get married. A younger man should not have children. In my strong opinion, a younger man shouldn’t even have a girlfriend, monogamous or not. An OLTR is a girlfriend, thus a younger man should not have one.

Men under 30 should instead spend their time getting laid, having fun, playing round with FB’s and MLTR’s, and focusing on building their businesses. A girlfriend, even an open one like an OLTR, destroys all of that, nor will a younger man have the ability to successfully manage such a relationship.

I always cringe whenever I see a guy in his twenties on a blog or message board announce that he has an OLTR or worse, a monogamous girlfriend. I know it’s going to blow up in his face. You don’t want things blowing up in your face when you’re in your twenties. Use that time to be free, have fun, get laid, and get shit done, not have a girlfriend, and certainly not have a wife.

Have a wife in your fucking twenties? Having kids in your fucking twenties? Are you fucking kidding me? I made that mistake when I was a young, stupid, inexperienced, naïve beta male with no real internet and no resources to learn about these things. Learn from my mistake so you don’t make the same one. Don’t have a girlfriend when you’re under 30, OLTR or not. Wait until you’re ideally 35. I never had anything that even looked like an OLTR until I was in my late thirties, by choice.

2. It’s going to be harder to get new FB’s when you have an OLTR because you already have a girlfriend and they’ll know it!!!

Yes, the difficulty bar is raised in this area. That’s exactly why you should not have an OLTR until you have very strong game. If you have strong game, this won’t be a big problem. If you have weak or intermediate game, this could be a serious problem, thus you would not have an OLTR until such time as your game gets stronger and you can bring in new FB’s as needed despite the increased difficulty of doing so.

3. It’s going to be harder to keep FB’s around longer because they’ll know you have a girlfriend!!!

The easiest solution to this (besides just paying for it, which is certainly an option for older guys) is to try to stick with FB’s who already have boyfriends themselves. I think you should do this anyway, since “taken” FB’s are always the best FB’s to have, regardless of if you have an OLTR or not.

But if you can’t / won’t do this, yeah, some FB’s won’t last as long when they know you’re already taken. That means you should not get into an OLTR until you’ve built up a strong number of FB’s on your roster. Most of these women won’t care that you have a girlfriend/wife now. But if you aren’t experienced enough where you haven’t built up such a roster, you’re probably not experienced enough to have an OLTR yet, and should hold off until you do.

And again, acquiring new FB’s won’t be nearly as big of a problem if you are very game experienced, so this shouldn’t be a concern.

4. I might have to pay for sex with side-FB’s if I have an OLTR!!!

Yes, you might have to (or chose to) pay hookers or sugar babies as some (or all!) of your FB’s in your OLTR, depending on your situation. You don’t have to, but it’s a perfectly viable option for some men. If you’re an older guy, this shouldn’t be a problem because your income should be at a point where you can easily afford such a thing. If you’re a young dude, you probably can’t afford anything like this, which means this option won’t be available to you, which means your options for side-FB’s are limited. Yet another reason why younger men shouldn’t even mess around with OLTR’s at all.

5. You can’t soft next her once you move in with her as an OLTR!!! How the hell is that supposed to work???

Correct, as I’ve said many times, you instantly destroy your option to soft next a woman the instant you move in with her. It is the greatest disadvantage to living with a woman.

This means you’re going to have to delve into your relationship toolkit and use other options for conflict management. If you’re a young or inexperienced guy, you’ll have no such toolkit to draw upon. If you’re an older guy, you’ll have all kinds of ideas to work with, and a wealth of relationship experience from which will help you out in your more complicated relationship.

I have a lot more to say about relationship management within a live-in relationship a little later, but the point is that a young guy or inexperienced guy has no business whatsoever living with a woman, regardless of monogamous or not. That’s just asking for trouble.

(And as usual, if you like drama or “don’t mind drama,” then feel free to ignore everything I’m saying and do whatever you want. If you don’t mind regular drama in your life, you’re probably reading the wrong blog anyway.)

I could go on, but you get the point. The next time you have questions or objections about having an OLTR (a live-in OLTR or standard OLTR), remember that OLTR’s are only for older men who have stronger levels of game, and then see if your question answers itself. It likely will.

One last thing…

A lot of you seem to think that OLTR is somehow “better” than MLTR. That you’re not at the highest level of Alphaness or badassery if you don’t have an OLTR and have MLTR’s instead. That is incorrect.

OLTR’s are not better than MLTR’s. OLTR’s are simply for men who wish to pair-bond. If you don’t want to pair-bond, or if you only want monogamy in a serious relationship, then you shouldn’t get an OLTR, shouldn’t think about getting an OLTR, should ignore everything I say about OLTR’s, and for fuck’s sake, shouldn’t leave comments bashing or disputing OLTR’s. If you don’t want an OLTR, that’s great, don’t have one. Stick with MLTR’s instead, which are just as good as OLTR’s, if not better in terms of masculine freedom.

MLTR’s are just as good and just as “Alpha” as OLTR’s, if not more so. There is nothing “bad” about having MLTR’s for the rest of your life. MLTR’s are awesome. OLTR is simply an option for those men who wish to pair-bond. That’s it. They’re not “better” than MLTR’s.

Also, monogamy doesn’t work, as I’ve proven perhaps thousands of times in my writings. Long-term monogamy doesn’t work at all, and I’ve already pointed out the numerous problems with serial monogamy both here and here. But if you still want to somehow enforce absolute sexual monogamy in a serious relationship (good luck with that) because your ego just can’t take the possibility that your partner might have sex with another guy at some point, then great, don’t have an OLTR. That’s fine. You don’t value long-term happiness as much as I do, but that’s still your choice and it’s your life. Since you’re clearly never going to have an OLTR, don’t muddy the conversation with objections about something you’re never going to do anyway.

So please, if you’re pro-monogamy or anti-pair-bonding, that’s wonderful, but for the love of god, if you can’t imagine you ever having an OLTR, please avoid bitching about OLTR’s, commenting about OLTR’s, asking stupid questions about OLTR’s that are actually objections in disguise, or talking about how terrible OLTR‘s sound to you. When I talk about OLTR’s, I’m only talking to men who might actually want OLTR’s, not you. You should instead focus on the other relationship management topics I discuss, which apply to FB’s and MLTR’s, which are also awesome. A lot of conversations in the comments on this blog are blown to hell by guys bitching about OLTR‘s who will clearly never have an OLTR no matter what data they learn about it. That’s that’s technically allowed here since I’m for free speech as long as the five rules are followed, but it’s really not fair to the guys who are interested in OLTR.

I hope that sounds reasonable. Cool? Cool.

So there you have it. OLTR’s are only for men who want them, and only men who are older and have a stronger level of game. I hope that clears a few things up.

102 Comments on “Requirements for OLTR That Apply to YOU

  1. BD this right here “A younger man shouldn’t be part of a couple. A younger man should not get married. A younger man should not have children. In my strong opinion, a younger man shouldn’t even have a girlfriend, monogamous or not. An OLTR is a girlfriend, thus a younger man should not have one.”  is what I wish all young men would realize.  Sadly I see so many young guys go this route before reaching their full potential because of oneitis or just NRE.   They need resources like this blog or your books to understand since we are all a biy naive at that age when it comes to women. I fully admit I’m not at OLTR level yet but really enjoying the MLTR/FB thing right now.

    Oh and your comment “Most of these women won’t care that you have a girlfriend/wife now” is totally true. I’ve had some FB‘s lately that know I have MLTR‘s and don’t give a shit…and have even said so out loud to me.

    I sure as hell was but I had some sort of instinct that kept me from ever getting too serious with one woman (I was never really monogamous) or living with one.  That little voice in me that always told me to bail when these girls would bring up marriage, cohabiting, etc…   I recall one girl i dated for like 6 months when I was 25/26 (she was 23) bringing up getting married very quickly.  I also recall thinking “are you fucking nuts??? We’re way too young”.  Oh she’s on marriage #2 already haha.

    Great stuff today man!

  2. A girlfriend, even an open one like an OLTR, destroys all of that, nor will a younger man have the ability to successfully manage such a relationship.

    100% true and field tested.

    When you are young you should focus on your mission way way harder than in your late 30s and early 40s. Your adult life is just beginning and you don’t know shit about sharing your life with a woman, despite what your seduction experience and big ball attitude may look like.

    I did not get married (thank god) but man, I was sure dumb enough to let several women rule my life for a long period of time! That put me back at least 7 years, if not more. So If you’re young don’t do that!

  3. It used to be kinda difficult to handle when i had no frame…but now, I find it quite entertaining when a young FB/MLTR LSNTFE’s me and gets a monogamous BF, which i find is especially common in nov/dec.. just sit back, grab some beer n’ popcorn, put the game on, do NOT give them a lick of attention, and watch the shitshow unfold ..lol too funny

  4. POB…

    SAME thing happened to me, even though i have always been focused on my mission, having to deal with attempts at monogamy throughout my 20’s cost me 8 YEARS… 8!! almost a freakin’ decade dealing with drama, having to lie and cheat, breaking hearts, tears, all that shit. The shit makes you AGE!!! I am not almost 39 and would NEVER recommend a serious relationship to someone in their 20’s DO NOT make the same mistake we did!!

    Funny one of my exes tends from those days tends to boomerang every now and again which is cool cause she is still hot but she is now 30 and on the slippery slope, oh well i’ll still do ye’ olde pump n’ dump.. and patiently wait.

  5. Why even pursue any kind of LTR nowadays? To me they seem like too much work. For me, its gonna be FBs until I die. I tried an OLTR this summer and it literally felt like a second job lol. I mean yeah we had FBs on the side but still, she got annoying, wanting to see me twice a week.

  6. When you are young you should focus on your mission way way harder than in your late 30s and early 40s.

    Unless you whiffed it like I did. No excuse, no regrets, adjust and grind on. Would prefer to be younger though.

    Being a young guy myself how do we guys resist the urge to want to have something serious with a woman?

    I’d start with rereading what the experienced men here are saying above……and probably other stuff from BD, liking having both a MLTR and a FB.

  7.  

    “Being a young guy myself how do we guys resist the urge to want to have something serious with a woman?”

    1.) Define “serious”…

    2.) Be sure to prevent one-itis:  date multiple women that could have long-term OLTR potential, not just one… and follow the MLTR rules blackdragon brought up long ago.

     

  8. Being a young guy myself how do we guys resist the urge to want to have something serious with a woman?

    High-end MLTR. That’s exactly what it’s for. You get 80%+ of the girlfriend experience, and you can even identify her as your “girlfriend” if you’re very careful and you’re doing everything else correctly. But you’re not emotionally exclusive and can still live your life as a completely free man with no relationship rules.

    And of course, never get monogamous.

  9. Remember your ‘urge’ is not necessarily natural… pair-bonding is fun and all, but this ‘urge’ of yours is not only a feminine quality, but was not even your idea to begin with, this shit was planted in us by parents, society, teachers, political leaders, celebrities, you name it!!

    Insecure people are the best consumers 😉

    And it DOES NOT work, it f*ckin sucks and I see people, male and female friends, and myself in the past, go through the absolute worst pains, hair goes grey quick…

    Read this blog, listen to Tom Leykis, and RedPill reddit… shit is gold and has saved my ass from soooo much drama the last few years, and kept some of my hair brown, and of course kept the pussy flowin’ like niagra falls!

     

  10. The thought of a guy in an OLTR under 30 is pretty funny actually lol.

    To enhance my Freedom I’m going for a Vasectomy. This way if a girl wants kids with me it’s only out of choice and commitment, not carelessness on my part for going bareback! LOL

    What do you think Black Dragon? 

  11. I had “girlfriends” (in the traditional sense) most of the time from when I was 16 until a couple of years ago (I’m 26 now) and I was faithful to none of them. That caused them a lot of unhappiness, me a lot of unhappiness (in that there was a mismatch between what I promised, whether overtly or allowed by implication), and contributed to a lot of “drama”, to use BD’s word.

    Going down the FB route, with an OLTR sometimes, has proved better for me in every way – much less drama, more honesty with myself and my women, just as much sex if not more, more variety of partners, and more time for myself: time that used to be spent trying to maintain a relationship.

    Not sure how I’ll feel in the future, but it’s great now.

  12. To enhance my Freedom I’m going for a Vasectomy.

    CTV, I’m seriously thinking of doing this. Haven’t finally decided yet, but I think I’ll probably go for it.

  13. I’m also in my 20s and I’m staying away from serious relationships with women for now after having learned it the hard way with lots of relationship drama.

    Being a young guy myself how do we guys resist the urge to want to have something serious with a woman?

    I’m just speculating here since I’m also at the beginning of my A2.0 journey and don’t have much practical experience.

    But as far as I understand it I think we really need to understand the spiritual value a mission has to a man. It’s one of the core things that define a man. A mission that turns into a business is like the male equivalent of having a baby.

    On a purely biological level women are required to produce babies to keep the species alive, and men are required to produce stuff to help the species prosper.

    And in the same way, as many women find total fulfillment in motherhood, I think a man can find the same with his mission and his business.

    Your business becomes your baby.

    First, you start with an idea, then it ripens inside your mind like a baby grows inside a woman’s womb, then you bring it into reality (e.g. starting your website and writing your first blog post), and then you nurture it with your hard work and grow it. And as it grows bigger and bigger, you feel a deep satisfaction.

    I think many men feel empty inside because they don’t have a mission. It’s similar to many childless women who also feel empty inside.

    And this emptiness is then tried to be filled with a serious relationship. This urge that you’re talking about might actually not be an urge to get into a serious relationship, but instead the wrong interpretation of this emptiness.

    And I know these feelings appear like they are completely instinctual and coming from within us.

    But there are other strong feelings that we interpret as inborn, while they are actually instilled in us by societal programming.

    E.g. most Westerners feel disgusted by the thought of eating insects and they interpret this feeling as innate, like the disgust of eating something toxic. When you look at other parts of the world, however, you will notice that millions of people eat insects just like popcorn. And when you try them yourself you might come to realize that they are actually quite tasty.

    Or let me give you another example of how society influences you on a deeply emotional level that you can’t even distinguish your learned emotions from your instinctive ones.

    Look at deeply religious people, especially from the past centuries. These people get so much of their need for spiritual deepness met by their religion. They are in love with their god. And they reach blissful states practicing their religion.

    The focus of your ‘urge’ can be directed by society through societal programming. We just happen to live in a society that programs us for getting this urge met in romantic relationships only. Religion’s intensity is gone (which is good) but the value of actualizing your mission isn’t taught anywhere. Instead, it’s actively suppressed by our educational system. And then this suppressed feeling gets redirected into romantic relationships and consumerism. And we have internalized this programming so much that we think and feel that we need a serious relationship to fulfill our desire.

    (Note I’m not saying that a mission fulfills you 100% and that you don’t need any woman at all. You still have the capacity to love women and your own children when/if you have them. I’m also not saying that women only need to get a baby to be 100% happy. Women can also gain lots of satisfaction by starting their own business or by supporting their man with his mission. And conversely, men who love being dads are thereby supporting their woman with her mission and gaining satisfaction from it. It’s overlapping. But these are secondary urges. The primary biological urge for deeper meaning for a woman is to create and nurture someone, and the primary biological urge for deeper meaning for a man is to create and grow something).

    I’m working on my business right now and I remind myself that before I don’t have enough practical experience with the A2.0 lifestyle, I cannot fully comprehend it and therefore I have to be wary when these urges for a serious girlfriend come up. Because I have them too, even though I already got burned.

    I think this cannot be understood on a purely intellectual level. We need to experience it first-hand by creating our own A2.0 lifestyle with a mission and an abundance of women in our lives.

    So in order to remind myself of this, I came up with a funny analogy.

    Imagine you’re a cow and you want to become a human being. And BD is like a fairy who can transform you into a human 😀

    There is only one thing this fairy requires you to do: stop eating grass.

    From your current perspective as a cow, you think: “Wait a second. Grass is my favorite food – it’s my only food!”

    But the fairy tells you that once you’ve become a human the urge of eating grass will completely be gone. As a human, when you see a pasture you will think it looks beautiful, but you won’t have any urge to eat it whatsoever. Right now the cow can only understand it from an intellectual level. The full and deep understanding will only come after the transformation.

    That keeps me on track.

  14. Remember your ‘urge’ is not necessarily natural… pair-bonding is fun and all, but this ‘urge’ of yours is not only a feminine quality, but was not even youridea to begin with, this shit was planted in us by parents, society, teachers, political leaders, celebrities, you name it!!

    No, it actually *is* natural. It being a “feminine quality” is only a matter of degree and men have it too.

    On a purely biological level women are required to produce babies to keep the species alive, and men are required to produce stuff to help the species prosper.

    “Survival of the species” is a pervasive myth that needs to die, and you have a dude named Konrad Lorenz to thank for it. Animals are not wired for the “survival of the species”. The best explanatory framework of animal behavior is gene propagation with the possibility of some of the subtler “group selectionist” ideas being true (but by and large they’re usually half-truths of the same type as “survival of the species”). That being said, survival and prosperity of the “tribe” is a secondary result of reproductive behavior, obviously.

    Look at deeply religious people, especially from the past centuries. These people get so much of their need for spiritual deepness met by their religion. They are in love with their god. And they reach blissful states practicing their religion.
    The focus of your ‘urge’ can be directed by society through societal programming. We just happen to live in a society that programs us for getting this urge met in romantic relationships only. Religion’s intensity is gone (which is good) but the value of actualizing your mission isn’t taught anywhere. Instead, it’s actively suppressed by our educational system. And then this suppressed feeling gets redirected into romantic relationships and consumerism. And we have internalized this programming so much that we think and feel that we need a serious relationship to fulfill our desire.

    That I actually agree with. People often don’t realize that when they think a specific experience, religion, etc is irreplaceable, it’s actually the way it makes them feel that might be irreplaceable, not the experience itself. Hence why they cling to it so strongly and reject any alternative. Google the Fireplace Delusion for example.

  15. What about move in OLTR that have teen-age kids (15) and the woman keeps asking me to do Beta tasks like take out trash or like she just asked – grab the Xmas tree out of garage and bring it in.

    I politely told her why doesn’t she ask her 15 yr old son to do it. He is currently watching TV.

    Her reply was because it makes me more Hot doing manly tasks like that LMBO. Seriously.

    And you guys say what to that hilarious comment??

    She’s currently sulking because the tree is still in the garage.  My bet is (assuming based on my previous marriage) she will bring it in herself versus asking her own son for help!!  Absolutely absurd logic but then again….I’m a man lol

     

  16. What do you think Black Dragon?

    I think its fine, especially if you freeze your sperm. More here:

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2014/08/24/vasectomy-pros-and-cons/

    he woman keeps asking me to do Beta tasks like take out trash or like she just asked – grab the Xmas tree out of garage and bring it in.

    I politely told her why doesn’t she ask her 15 yr old son to do it. He is currently watching TV.

    That’s common. I experienced the same thing when I was monogamously married:

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2016/11/24/one-reasons-women-dont-want-happy/

    And you guys say what to that hilarious comment??

    “It makes ME hot when you’re a strong, confident mother to your children, and you make your lazy piece of shit son get off his ass and act like the man he needs to be when he moves out of this house in a few years. Man, that makes me hard! But if you’re just going to let him sit there and watch TV, eh, that kinda turns me off. I’m going to go work in my office. See ya!” (leave the room and get far away from her, work on Mission)

    She’s currently sulking because the tree is still in the garage.  My bet is (assuming based on my previous marriage) she will bring it in herself versus asking her own son for help!!

    That is precisely what she’s going to do. Then she’ll be upset for the rest of the night, at you. Again, women don’t want to be happy.

  17. Yup.  She’s angry.  She instantly went out to garage and dollied it in while her son set on his smartphone.

    She then claimed she is always asking him to do stuff and he would do it IF she asked him.  He has done nothing all night, including his homework Lmbo.

    Finally, it ended w her saying neither one of us should ask the other for anything ever again, including stuff like massages lol.

    I just said OK and gave her a kiss and turned back on The Punisher.

  18. no man should even think about having an OLTR until he is at least 30 years old

    Hey BD,

    They say those who won’t learn from history will be condemned to repeat it.

    Here’s some interesting history.

    The ancient state of Sparta had some customs that were widely derided in their day (but see if you haven’t rediscovered their principles.)

    Spartan boys who were intended to become citizens entered one of the communal military training academies at age 7. They underwent fierce military training.

    At age 20 they joined the army, and were considered fit to go into battle, but they always started out in the ranks.

    From age 20 they were able to take girlfriends, or even marry, but they were forbidden to live with them, even if they were married. (Hmmm, where have I heard this before … ) The men had to live in their barracks and visit their wives & girlfriends for sex only, or for sports.

    A man could not become a citizen, or participate in councils or other government functions until he was 30. Men were also trained mentally, learning spycraft, evasion, and speaking with deep meaning- the so-called Laconic Speech, and citizens who wanted to assume civic responsibilites were expected to have displayed mental excellence. At age 30 he also was permitted to live with his wife, or concubine.

    Spartans were very concerned about keeping their women healthy and having robust offspring. They seem to have been one of the few societies in ancient times that knew that the ideal age range for bearing children is 18 or 19 to 26-28. This is why girls were not allowed to marry until the age of 18 or 20, depending on the time period and family. Spartan society was very open about sex, though, and girls younger than 18 were expected to practice the primitive contraception of the time, and mothers expected their daughters to become sexually active once they were mature.

    Everything was about getting the fittest children, physically and mentally. Spartans also knew that younger men tend to sire healthier children, and older men married to women, or with concubines or mistresses in the ideal childbearing age range would sometimes recruit one of the young men they had mentored in the military system to impregnate their woman.

    There was also no approbation about a woman being sexual, any more than there was for men, and in some time periods, developing evasion skills to hook up with girl was even considered good training for the men. Polyandry was in fact accepted as much as polygamy. The ultimate non-slut-shaming society!

    Maybe Spartans were the Alpha Male 2’s of their time.

    Would I have wanted to live in Sparta?

    No. They were way to socialistic for me and my libertarian inclinations, and everyone, even Spartan writers themselves, admitted that Spartan food was terrible … but then again … a place where the girls were renowned for their hard bodies and participated nude in sports competitions along with the men? Where sex was recognized as an ideal, was encouraged and rewarded? … life in Sparta had its positives …

  19. Great post, I agree with it wholeheartedly. 2 points:

    1. How do you think having an OLTR affects a man’s progress to his mission, compares to just MLTRs/FBs? Better or worse? The old people always advise having a solid girlfriend/wife help you being more mature, focus more on business and in turn, be more successful. It’s definitely SP but I know some cases where it’s true, probably due to an enhanced sense of responsibility and less time spent on playing around with new women.

    2. You should write about how one maintains and practices his game skills (finding and keeping new FBs) while he’s already with an OLTR or OM (which is ten times harder even with advanced game I believe). No matter how big the FB roster is, it may run dry someday, and you will need an influx of new ones. Can’t let our game deteriorated.

  20. Curtis- that 15 yr old is learning to disrespect his mother and be lazy from watching what you are modeling. Not cool, or alpha. The real alpha male doesn’t have to be asked to take out the trash or do household tasks, he just does it because he knows how to take care of a home. Helping a woman carry a heavy item in from the garage isn’t “beta”. It’s basic decent behavior. Pouting and refusing to help with things is lame and sets a terrible example for her son. Can we be surprised he is imitating you?

    The idea that basic courtesy and helping pitch in at home is “beta” is ridiculous. The guys I know that are the biggest players are all super gentlemen towards women.

    One of the guys that works for me is like the biggest flirt ever and all the women love him. I deliberately put him in places where he’s working around a lot of women because it makes me money lol. I had him at this meeting for women executives and the woman who ran it was not happy that there was a man there at first and even told him so, but by the end of the night they were all in love with him haha. He’s like here, let me get your coat, light your cigarette, help you carry this, etc, etc. Trust me when I say most of them would sleep with him because he’s super smooth about it.

    The thing is not to let it get to the point where she has to be nagging you to do things. THAT is beta, not doing the things.

  21. BD, what about converting a long time LTR into OLTR? Does the same age/experience requirements apply? I almost qualify (32 and good-ish game). BTW, the relationship in question is rock solid when it comes to separation of finances, mutual respect, raising kids together etc, except that it is annoyingly monogamous (though we almost did dip our toes in some light poly on some occasions ).

    Go for it or nah?

  22. SAME thing happened to me, even though i have always been focused on my mission, having to deal with attempts at monogamy throughout my 20’s cost me 8 YEARS… 8!! almost a freakin’ decade dealing with drama, having to lie and cheat, breaking hearts, tears, all that shit. The shit makes you AGE!!! I am not almost 39 and would NEVER recommend a serious relationship to someone in their 20’s DO NOT make the same mistake we did!

    Worst part: you look back and realize it was YOUR fault.

    But the younger dudes who are getting this information now (and acting on it I hope), you guys are in for very a nice ride till your 40s.

    About the “urge” to pair-bond, it’s very simple: raise your middle finger very high in the air (so everyone can see), tell society/family/friends to go fuck themselves – if they get in your way – and go work on your life and personal happiness. People who get you will stick with you along the way.

  23. @Lovegirl

    No, he was that way before we meet.  Honestly, he is much better now because he sees how I can and love to cook and do things all the time.  But I do so without being asked.  I did dishes last week out of the blue.  I bought groceries. I feed their 3 dogs.

    I just hate being asked to do these things when kids are setting around on there asses.

    Btw – I run a biz so my time is slightly more valuable than there time lol.

    But it’s my opinion if a man let’s this out of control, this can grow or snowball.

    Btw – after she sulked for an hour, we had sex two times.  So, hold your ground men when being asked to do Beta tasks if kids are laying around!!

     

  24. @Lovegirl –

    I forgot another critical point……

    1) Let’s assume that is was MY 2 teenagers (age 15+) in the house instead of hers.

    2) Let’s assume that my 2 teenagers  had been watching TV or on smartphones all night (from 4 to 9 pm)

    3) Would it be OK if I asked you (very nicely) to do the Dishes for me?  How about dust the ceiling fan?  Vacuum?  Cook me a hot meal?  Take out the trash for me?  Feed the dogs?    Mop the floor?

    4) Then, lets assume you said no (in a nice manner) and If I had considered to ask my daughter or son to do that minor task since they have been playing video games or TV all night anyways.

    5) Finally, imagine my response to you saying “No in a nice way” was to inform you that it makes you much sexier and desireable if you did what I asked of you.  And that I could have asked my kids to do it and they would do so with a great attitude because they love me.  But then I went and did it myself anyways.  And that you were being an asshole for saying no and expecting me to ask my kids.  Oh and that you are a lazy person as well since you won’t do as I asked nicely.

    Now…..how would you feel?

     

  25. So… If I have some relationships experience and currently in relationships with a girlfriend that is zero drama, decently good at sex and does not require me to spend any money on her… And this state of affairs holds up over a year by now…

    Then I still have to dump her?

    Only because Im just 27 and and my career in blockchain finance is just starting?

  26. Curtis- that 15 yr old is learning to disrespect his mother and be lazy from watching what you are modeling.

    LG: So “good” men should act around women the same way boys are supposed to act around their mum, just so the boy grows up alright? Okay then, if I have a daughter and I tell my girlfriend to take out the trash, she should obey me, because that’s how that woman will teach my daughter to respect her father, according to your reasoning. What a twisted understanding of personal responsibility and role models.

  27. This topic of living w/ an OLTR & beta tasks really got my mind going….

    We know women love to be unhappy and love a man to prove his worth by doing tasks that their kids should be doing right.

    So, when the lady I live with got angry at me last night after I refused to wheel the xmas tree in while her son was watching TV, she made a comment that neither one of us should ask the other to do anything for the other anymore, including things like massages. (although she wanted sex lol. How convienent)

    At first, I was going to argue my point that that is different (a parent asking a kid for a massage) and use man logic.  But after some thought, I told her:

    “yeah you may have a point sweety.  It probably is easier for us to just do stuff when we want to for the other person out of love without being asked or expected to honestly.  So, I agree with you honey.  I won’t ask you for anything or to do anything and you don’t ask me either.  I feel this well greatly cut down on confusion and make things much more simple.  Great idea…love you and goodnight.” (kiss)

    I feel like a ton of bricks is off my back now!  I am not so sure she likes how this one turned out however…

    What do you guys think about my response??   What is gonna be her counter move or next button to push?   I assume her attraction for me will go up, just as she wanted sex last night even though she was frustrated with me.

    I have to admit in a way I am glad she did this because it makes me keeping my frame much easier now and it is kinda a relief.  If I wanna give her a massage, I do.  Now she may feel like giving me one sometime too.  Just because.  So it could create a trend of each other doing things for each other more and more (reverse competition for love).

    If she does not ever give me one she knows I will go somewhere else to get one.  She also knows that if she needs a yes man/beta man to do her chores around the house, that there are many men that would do that in exchange for sex and I told her this very thing.  So, she claims she doesn’t want a man that will agree to do what she asks.  She also knows now (thanks to BDs idea last night) that it turns me on and is hot when a mother asks her kids to do these things.

    So, I would say that it may very well be a great idea for 2 living together in an OLTR to have a rule that:

    a) neither asks the other to do household chores and tasks nor be expected to

    b) if the woman wants to be able to ask the man to do chores, she will need to do something for him in return or him for her in return if he asks her to do a task

    Example – she asked me to grab the xmas tree while kids present.  I could say yes, as long as she wouldn’t mind giving me a foot massage after I use my feet to bring it in LMBO.

    It would be said in a nicer way of course – “oh yeah I don’t mind grabbing that tree for you gorgeous but would you mind giving me a foot massage after I am done by chance?”

    Or, “sure I don’t mind sweetie.  Would you mind changing the toilet paper roll for me real quick because I forgot…”

    I notice women seem to keep track of all this shit anyways. So why not say there are only 2 ways – No asking each other but if we do there is trade offs.   

    Seems to me this would help prevent a guy from gradually becoming betatized over time and allow for her attraction of us to stay high longer.

    What yall think?

    PS – my guess is she will mention she does my laundry.  I am already prepared to do it myself and have no issue doing it.  But then she will say I am doing it wrong lol.  So, I am going to start doing it anyways without saying anything.  Out of Love….

  28. Curtis-

    If someone asks me to do something, I say yes or no. I don’t say why don’t you ask this other person/teenager/whoever to do it. It’s either, sure I’ll be happy to or sorry I’m busy doing something else now or I can help when I am done with this if you still need me to. It’s up to the other person to decide if they want to ask someone else or do it themself if I say no.  It comes off like you are in some kind of petty competition with her son otherwise.

    I don’t think it’s ok for her to demand you do something, but you said she ASKED, which means you can say yes or no. Saying no just to try and prove something is just causing drama. If I’m standing there doing nothing and someone asks me to help with something the majority of the time I’m going to say yes. If I’m busy doing something else I say sorry I’m busy. It’s pretty simple.

    You’re making her son a point of contention between the two of you which isn’t good for anyone. If you want him to do something around the house, ask him yourself, but not as a deflection of something she asks you to do.

    I have 4 teenage sons. They all pitch in to clean the house and do things, often without being asked because they know I have a lot on my plate and they see that things dont get done if they don’t. When I need a lot done I pay my oldest because he is more than happy to do chores for money.  He would probably lay around without motivation if I didn’t but I’m cool with whatever works and not up for drama.

  29. @Gil Galad

    What a great point man!  As a matter of fact, I do have a 12 year old daughter so next time she is over and is setting on the couch on her iPhone for 4 hours, I will ask my OLTR if she would mind, out of respect and love, to grab the groceries out of the car and put them up.

  30. @Dmytro

    Then I still have to dump her?

    Where do you draw that conclusion from?

    But more importantly, are your current relationship is monogamous?

  31. @LoveGirl

    Actually, I did say “no” originally but when she was shocked and then started to say how it turns her on that I do stuff like that I then mentioned her asking her son to do it.  Because she acted like she didn’t want to get it because it was cold in the garage.  So, I was helping her with another possible solution or alternative – her 15 year old son that was not doing anything.  I just got done working and was relaxing.

    If this makes it a competition that I offered her a solution that she did not think of or consider, that is unfortunate but there is nothing a man can do to make a women totally happy anyways.  So I don’t ever attempt that or make that my goal.  It is unattainable and unrealistic.  Especially if she has kids in the house.  Additionally, I have experienced parent alienation issues from my divorce so I know first hand, it does not matter how nice a man is now because women will always tell the next man all the bad things about a man he didn’t do, not what he did do.  So, I don’t try to please a woman or satisfy her desires really in terms of tasks or chores.  My ex-wife had a 3500 sq ft home, 2 new cars, granite counter tops (lol), pool, hot tub etc.  I was the cook in the house.  Do you think she appreciated any of that lifestyle or gives me kuddos for working hard to get that for her?  No…..of course not.  She instead complains on how I would not do manly tasks like mow the grass while our son was sitting at home watching TV.  Or that I wouldn’t do the “manly” tasks and she wants a man that is.

    I said, go ahead and find you a yes man to go bang nails for ya if that turns you on.  There are plenty of those moron men out their that have not learned this endeavor at banging nails to make a chic happy is a totally fruitless endeavor.  My ex-wife indeed found her one too!

    A real tough guy firefighter w/ little penis syndrome that loves to prove his love by being all macho and washing her car for her.  It’s been 3 years now and I have a hot, sexy lady (at least one) and my ex-wife has gained 30 pounds and her new beta/yes man boyfriend is jealous as hell.  Why?  Because I was not “man enough” to treat her like a “real man”.

    Who’s laughing now?  Don’t fall for the scam men….

  32. Curtis
    you are in a tornado of drama
    logic and being fair will not solve it
    one plausible outcome is that some beta orbiter guy
    swoops in out of nowhere
    “he was so nice he gave me a foot rub and did not want anything back I have been so stressed out because of Curtis If only Curtis were more Beta” repeat that phrase in your head in her voice a couple of times before you go to sleep

    nightmare city

    BD has dozens of posts about bad behavior creating undesirable results
    your best but low probability result is to find a male friendly marriage counselor who
    can help you create a more functional dynamic

    good luck

     

  33. @Kevin.

    Well, I did have sex 2 x last night after her drama AND I do not have to worry about her asking me to do crap like this.  If a Beta sweeps in and does it for her, then I just get my own place and keep having sex with her possibly.  Or she will gain 40 pounds and I won’t care. It is my theory that Beta men cause chics to get too comfortable and get fat….

  34. but by the end of the night they were all in love with him haha. He’s like here, let me get your coat, light your cigarette, help you carry this, etc, etc

    Lovergirl, you are never going to convince a blog of alphas that the way to a woman’s pussy is being her little errand bitch boy!

    If we wanted to fuck women by becoming their unpaid waiters, unpaid butlers, unpaid janitors, unpaid chauffers, white knights, bank accounts, unpaid rodent exterminators, unpaid bag carriers, unpaid personal shoppers, and unpaid slaves, while the woman just sits there like a queen and says “good boy,” we wouldn’t be on a blog like this, but on a Disney site whining about “decline family values.”

    You’ll never convince us that beta is alpha and alpha is beta, or that dominance is slavery and slavery is dominance. Southern hospitality doesn’t extend far beyond the South.

     

  35. The old people always advise having a solid girlfriend/wife help you being more mature, focus more on business and in turn, be more successful.

    Getting traditionally, monogamously married like a good little boy can indeed increase the odds of you being a stable, complaint citizen-drone for society. That’s why traditional conservatives defend it so much. But it’s not the path to long-term consistent happiness, particularly for a male; it’s actually quite the opposite. If your primary goal is to sacrifice your long-term happiness for the good of society, then you could make the case for trying to make traditional marriage work (even though you will still fail in this era, as I’ve shown statistically many times).

    You should write about how one maintains and practices his game skills (finding and keeping new FBs) while he’s already with an OLTR or OM (which is ten times harder even with advanced game I believe).

    It is not “ten times harder.” I’ve had two girlfriends so far under this model and it was barely any harder to get new women. I’m sure it will be harder when PF moves in, but not ten times. That’s just silly.

    No matter how big the FB roster is, it may run dry someday, and you will need an influx of new ones. Can’t let our game deteriorated.

    Correct. That’s why you can’t ever go de-facto monogamous.

    Curtis- that 15 yr old is learning to disrespect his mother and be lazy from watching what you are modeling. Not cool, or alpha.

    I was waiting for LG to chime in when she saw that conversation. Standard over-33 married women betization (though I know LG isn’t married), “A real man is a servant to his wife, and her kids being lazy shits has nothing to do with it, and if it does, it’s clearly the man’s fault.”

    So funny.

    BD, what about converting a long time LTR into OLTR? Does the same age/experience requirements apply?

    Why wouldn’t they?

    is annoyingly monogamous (though we almost did dip our toes in some light poly on some occasions ).

    Go for it or nah?

    You’re seriously asking me if you should remain monogamous? What do you think I”m going to say?

    So… If I have some relationships experience and currently in relationships with a girlfriend that is zero drama, decently good at sex and does not require me to spend any money on her… And this state of affairs holds up over a year by now…

    Then I still have to dump her?

    You don’t have to do anything. It’s your life, you’re free to do what you choose. If you’re monogamous, then of course you should open the relationship immediately up so you can be a man instead of a slave. If you’re not monogamous, you can either downgrade her to MLTR or FB right now (which would be drama), or just wait until you have an explosion (which I promise you is coming) and then end the relationship at that point (which would also be drama).

    The point is you should have never gotten into this relationship in the first place. Now that you’re already in one, no path is ideal, since the damage is already done.

  36. @Jack outside the box

    The issue is many women will say they that men that don’t want to do these tasks make them our unpaid call girl or sex slave lol.

    I had to establish early on w my OLTR that my penis and her vagina are of equal value.

     

  37. The issue is many women will say they that men that don’t want to do these tasks make them our unpaid call girl or sex slave lol.

    Tell her – “Why didn’t you tell me you were a generous lesbian? If it’s ok, I’d prefer to sleep with straight women than have to compensate lesbians for their generosity.”

     

     

  38. b) if the woman wants to be able to ask the man to do chores, she will need to do something for him in return or him for her in return if he asks her to do a task

    That’s a dead end I’m certain, and BD agrees with me: http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2012/05/24/why-you-allow-her-to-emasculate-you/ (item 3)

    I’m sure there’s a way to clearly delineate which chores are whose responsibility, and stick to that. If things are clear before moving in together (I do mine, you do yours) there should be some natural progression.

  39. Speaking of women trying to betatize us I do have one issue that’s been a lil tricky to tackle since I now live w my OLTR.

    It’s watching Netflix or AMC series shows together vs separately.  I absolutely hate having to wait until she is setting still and not talking in order to watch a particular series.  She wants it to be a “group thing” or couple thing.  I’m too freaking independent minded to plan my relaxing time around when she’s gonna be done w her 30 minute shower, kids stuff and errands before I can watch my next episode.  I just want to relax, push play and shut up AND do it when I am ready to. Not plan when we can both can manage to watch MY show together so we don’t miss an episode.  Btw – it’s always me that finds a particular show (punisher, better call Saul etc) and fall in love w it and then she’s like it too and requests that I wait until she can watch it with me!  It’s exhausting LMBO ?

    I have never once saw a show she likes and asked her to wait on me to watch an episode.

    So, lately, I’ve been telling her that it’s too much work to micro- manage this topic and since she doesn’t work, she can just re-watch the episodes she missed in her free time. Of course, this hurt her feelings kinda lol.  But if I let her control when I’m gonna watch MY shows too, that just seems like too much control and betatization to me.

    So, is that being too much of an asshole or alpha 2?

  40. We have A curt, Curts and CURTIS in this thread?

    dude she is showing you that she is submissive but disorganized woman

    she is dying to sit at your feet lord and master!  Reframe the situation and you come out a hero!

     

  41. As far as I see you did not mention one important distinction between MLTR and OLTR under your system is that once a week rule. I don’t like rules and I like to see my women whenever I want, or at least once of them. Yes I have tried a system with 2 MLTR and been seeing them more than once a week and it did result in drama, but what about just one that I see more than once a week and the rest just once? Then its an OLTR under your system. Or would that be a semi oltr where you just see her more often but dont call her girlfriend? By the way I never tell my women they are girlfriends but I refer to all of them as girlfriends when talking to friends/family/colleagues when these women arent around.

  42. @Kevin

    Sorry about the multiple names.  I found its from the cookies and me using my phone, PC and tablet to post comments.  It’s been fixed now.

    Your not gonna believe me but she literally said that exact same thing last night!  “OK Curtis you are my master and I will be obedient to you” or something similar.  She was being sarcastic and silly but she appeared to have some honesty to what she is saying.

    So, to reward her good behavior, I made her waffles this morning out of Love versus being asked.

    Thanks for the advice Kevin…

  43. I don’t like rules and I like to see my women whenever I want, or at least once of them.

    What you’re saying is that you want to see one particular woman more than once a week, but you don’t want the rules of an OLTR. That’s fine, but your only option then is chaos, which you proved yourself here:

    Yes I have tried a system with 2 MLTR and been seeing them more than once a week and it did result in drama

    Exactly. When you see a FB or MLTR more than once a week, you’ll get drama. It can’t not happen, because you’re behaving incongruently. Hell, even seeing an OLTR more than once a week can create drama if you’re not careful.

    There is no way around this. Either a) you keep the relationship rule-free and keep each woman to once a week (MLTR), or b) make her your real girlfriend so you can see her more than once a week but commit to a few rules (OLTR), or c) you do something completely different and untested and end up with a bunch of drama, confusion, and problems.

    I sometimes don’t like those options myself, but that’s the way women “work.” You or I aren’t going to change that.

    Or would that be a semi oltr where you just see her more often but dont call her girlfriend? By the way I never tell my women they are girlfriends but I refer to all of them as girlfriends when talking to friends/family/colleagues when these women arent around.

    Yeah, that’s option C above; you’re screwing around with the system at that point and you’re bound for drama and other problems. Sorry I don’t have a better answer for you.

    My recommendation is to calm down this weird need you have to see a woman you’re not super serious with more than once a week. I’ve literally never had this desire.

    Sorry about the multiple names.

    Yes, please, pick one name and stick with it 100% of the time. Changing names creates a lot of confusion here. Thanks.

  44. As a 5’6 nerdy INTP man, am I better off just focusing on my mission and hiring escorts? Seems like you can have all the confidence in the world but without height, you’re just an orbiter.

  45. As a 5’6 nerdy INTP man, am I better off just focusing on my mission and hiring escorts? Seems like you can have all the confidence in the world but without height, you’re just an orbiter.

    Read excuse #2 here.

  46. I’m 24 with passable social skills. I think that, more than lifts or elevator soles, improving my income and sociability will help me to climb the dating totem pole. Still, I’ll give Don’s footwear a try, in the meantime.

  47. There seems to be some incongruency here to me. The point is always hammered here that we should never lie to women, and that to the extent we indirectly subcommunicate, those subcommunications should be honest as well.

    So my question is, unless you were previously subcommunicating to all your FB‘s that they _might_ have a chance at a “serious” relationship with you in the future, which can’t possibly be the honest truth, then why is it that you would suddenly have retention issues and an inability to bring on new FB‘s or keep them for shorter periods of time, after you get an OLTR and they know that you are “taken” as you say here?

    Seems to me, if you’re doing everything correctly, the vibe you’re putting out to FB‘s when you DON’T have an OLTR and the vibe you put out when you do, are supposed to be exactly the same, since in both cases they are only FB‘s and they are supposed to know it. Therefore, there’s no reason why anything should change once you get an OLTR. What am I missing here?

  48. Exactly. When you see a FB or MLTR more than once a week, you’ll get drama. It can’t not happen, because you’re behaving incongruently.

    BD, may you explain why is it incongruent to women?

  49. What am I missing here?

    Both myself and the guys who usually bring this up as an objection (“FB‘s wont fuck you if you have an OLTR!”) are guilty of over generalizing women, which is causing some confusion.

    A. Some women who get into a FB relationship with you will want more from you.

    B. Some women won’t want anything more than a FB relationship. All they want is to fuck you. I know some men think women like this don’t exist, but those men are factually and objectively wrong.

    The objection to that is, “Well at first they won’t want a relationship, but once they keep having sex with you eventually they will.

    C. Yes, some women will eventually want more from you in a FB.

    D. Some women will never want more from you in a FB. Again, I know some men think women like this don’t exist, but these men are factually and objectively wrong.

    E. Some women will have boyfriends or some other guy they’re excited about, so they won’t want anything more from you in a FB, since they get all the boyfriendish stuff from the other guys.

    There’s even a fourth category:

    F. Some low self-esteem women will get upset you have a girlfriend, and will complain about it, but will keep seeing you anyway.

    So, if you have an OLTR, this only affects women in categories A and C. These women will LSFNTE you and then come back later. All the other categories won’t give a shit, and will be completely unaffected by you having an OLTR or not.

    Since A and C are indeed big categories, this means that you will have to put in more numbers to have a steady influx and rotation of FB‘s when you’re in an OLTR. But it won’t affect all women.

    I hope that clears it up.

  50. BD, may you explain why is it incongruent to women?

    You’re not behaving like a boyfriend (because you’re following all the usual FB and MLTR anti-betaization rules), but then you are acting like a boyfriend by seeing them more than once a week (refer to this post for boyfriend behaviors). It’s not congruent, and sends all the wrong messages to a woman. Betaization and drama will increase.

  51. Thanks for the update Curtis

    i am NOT surprised.

    it was like she was running around your house with a flaregun.

    do not be surprised if she tells you she has a female friend at work who is really into

    the book fifty shades of grey. Your gal then says that is dumb isn’t Curtis?

    she drops the subject then brings it up again later

    and still again for a third time.

    game on and good luck!

     

  52. @Kevin

    I’m not sure I followed the 50 shades of grey part however?

    We have watched both of those movies together and our sex life makes those movies seem a lil boring maybe lol.

    She likes me to boss her around a lil too and the fact I don’t (unless role playing) makes her more attracted to me or desire it even more kinda.

    But she is still learning and admits that she has never dated anyone like me (she either dated kitty cat pussys that would come over for months w no sex or Controlling/jealy men prior to me) so she doesn’t know what to do sometimes about my responses or non-responses and it pisses her off but also turns her on too like crazy (her own words) LMBO.

    But if she did have a co-worker that was reading that book, I’m guessing she would tell me that this girl is a lot like us too and she may hang out w her sometime. Then she would start teasing me in fun way if she should ask her about a threesome sometime ???

  53. BD, may you explain why is it incongruent to women?

    You’re not behaving like a boyfriend (because you’re following all the usual FB and MLTR anti-betaization rules), but then you are acting like a boyfriend by seeing them more than once a week (refer to this postfor boyfriend behaviors). It’s not congruent, and sends all the wrong messages to a woman. Betaization and drama will increase.

    BD, how do you keep congruency when old MLTRs from previous travels want to come visit you in a new country? Wouldn’t the fact that you spending 3-4 days together send her the wrong signals, especially when you used to see her only once a week when you were in the same city? Should it be avoided altogether?

     

  54. My recommendation is to calm down this weird need you have to see a woman you’re not super serious with more than once a week. I’ve literally never had this desire.

    Then it must be just me, but yes when I date someone I like I do want to see her more often. But perhaps this will go away later when I get better with women and have enough of them to keep me busy.

  55. BD, how do you keep congruency when old MLTRs from previous travels want to come visit you in a new country? Wouldn’t the fact that you spending 3-4 days together send her the wrong signals, especially when you used to see her only once a week when you were in the same city?

    Coming to visit you a on distant trip and spending some time with you is very different than spending 3-4 days with a woman who loves 20 minutes away, so it’s not a big problem.

    The overall rule is you shouldn’t go on trips with MLTR‘s unless they’re proven and preferably high-end, but again, if she lives thousands of miles away, you can break this rule because she won’t expect to see you every week anyway.

    Then it must be just me, but yes when I date someone I like I do want to see her more often. But perhaps this will go away later when I get better with women and have enough of them to keep me busy.

    Bingo. That. You just don’t have enough practice with this yet and are still getting beta / oneitisy feelings.

  56. … how do you keep congruency when old MLTRs from previous travels want to come visit you in a new country? Wouldn’t the fact that you spending 3-4 days together send her the wrong signals, especially when you used to see her only once a week when you were in the same city? Should it be avoided altogether?

    It seems very different to me if she’s visiting from another country from her living down the road and being an easy car trip, or whatever, away. I wouldn’t see such a visit as a problem. Plus, if you’re worried about it and she’s going to be there for a few days, you could always be busy with a pre-arranged event on one of the days or evenings she’s there.

  57. Ok, I get what you’re saying about the category A and category C type women.

    But, I still can’t see how, if you are doing everything correctly, even those A/C women should have anything change. Women in those categories were going to want more from you and eventually LSNFTE you when you were totally single, as well.

    Unless you have a habit of communicating to your FB‘s that you might let them get more from you one day even though you don’t actually have that intention, I don’t see why it makes a difference when you have an OLTR. The retention rate should be almost exactly the same.

    Beyond that, the NEW FB acquisition rates, how on earth could that possibly be affected? You don’t explicitly state that you are even sleeping with anyone except the new FB for months after the first hookup. Having an OLTR should have nothing to do with this whatsoever and I can’t see any way for it to have any effect, unless you are talking about simply not having time of your own because you have to spend it with your OLTR.

  58. Daniel-

    All fuck buddies drop off eventually. There isn’t enough emotional investment for them to stick around forever. At that point BD (or whoever) will be left trying to acquire new fuck buddies. Like it or not many women are turned off by a guy that is in an open relationship, more so than from a married guy who is cheating. The OLTR setup lacks the discretion that a lot of women need to feel comfortable enough to be a “side chick”. BD hasn’t experienced this yet because he is only now just moving in with his OLTR but I’d be willing to bet money he will experience it down the road.

  59. But, I still can’t see how, if you are doing everything correctly, even those A/C women should have anything change. Women in those categories were going to want more from you and eventually LSNFTE you when you were totally single, as well

    The difference is:

    1. They will at least a little less likely to get into a FB with you in the first place if they know you currently have a girlfriend or OLTR wife. If you lie to them or withhold this information, you are correct, there will be no difference in acquisition rates.

    The issue is, it will be harder to withhold (or lie) about you not being single if you actually live full-time with someone. Guys with OLTR‘s who don’t live with them will of course be much more flexible. Thus the new challenge that arises when you move in with someone.

    2. The LSNFTE, when it comes, will likely come sooner with A’s and C’s vs. if they thought you were 100% single.

    (BTW Lovergirl has really hated the entire concept of FB relationships since day one and has complaining about them for years, so nothing she says on this topic should be taken seriously.)

  60. I think some of you are being too black and white w BDs philosophy.

    He says if you want the most happiness and that YOU have to first define what this is for you and your life.

    For example, I might put up w a lil more drama and rules if my OLTR will do threesomes w me occasionally, cook for me sometimes, give me massages, and stuff like that.

    So, I kinda am more Grey with this stuff and adjust it for MY desires and likes/dislikes.  But BDs overall philosophy and view is still valid and the points accurate 90% of time from my experiences.

    That being said, so far it’s definitely harder keeping FBs when living w someone in my opinion.  Plus I kinda miss having my own place and man cave cuz it was pretty sweet and the ladies digged it.  Maybe I feel that a big key to having more FBs is novelty, buzz and image and my place had that for sure.

    Now, it’s more tricky just going to her place or hotel.  I kinda preferred bringing them back and the entertaining side and wooing them maybe lol.

  61. If you’re making the recommended amount of 75,000 per year and your OLTR is paying her share than it should be no problem to have a separate apartment in the same city, or better yet in another one, making logistics that much easier. But, I’m sure most guys would be reluctant to pay two rents in order to be cheap or whatever other dumb reason.

  62. BD- what are you talking about? I have multiple fuck buddies and have for years. Clearly you haven’t read my blog lol. Im not against fuck buddies they just have to treat me well. Your rules wouldn’t work for someone like me.

    I’ve been fucking the same married guy for 7 years, but if he was telling his wife about me I would feel uncomfortable. I’m being honest and I know a lot of women would feel the same, it’s just weird. If he had an open relationship I wouldn’t want to fuck him. A lot of women won’t tell you that upfront but I can tell you it’s a thing.

  63. @Lovergirl

    I am trying to understand what precisely makes you feel uncomfortable:

    if he was telling his wife about me I would feel uncomfortable. I’m being honest and I know a lot of women would feel the same, it’s just weird. If he had an open relationship I wouldn’t want to fuck him. A lot of women won’t tell you that upfront but I can tell you it’s a thing.

    What if he has an open relationship or marriage (OLTR/OM) but keeps any information about what you 2 are doing and who you are (including your name) completely private. He does not discuss it with his girlfriend. They just agreed that the relationship is open to have sex with FBs, but they don’t discuss who or what specifically. Would you feel comfortable with that?

  64. @Gang- It’s hard to explain but at some level I’m sure it’s a competition with other women thing. If he’s flat out telling you you’re not number one it’s an embarrassment and a turnoff. I slept with a guy for a bit who had an open relationship deal where she knew and I just couldn’t continue. I felt used. If she didn’t know it would be better. I do know a guy that does that andit worked out better with him but without the romance or possibility of it turning into anything it can quickly lose its appeal. I’d still sleep with him, I think, but he’s also not clinical about it like BD and we have a friendship where we text each other back and forth and I can ask him advice about other men and things and he doesn’t act emotionally cold. I couldn’t do the way BD has agreed to treat his fuck baddies.

  65. I have multiple fuck buddies and have for years.

    Incorrect. You’ve had multiple MLTR‘s. These men take you out, spend a little money on you, spend time with you far beyond sex, etc. Those are not FB‘s.

    Im not against fuck buddies they just have to treat me well.

    “Treat me well,” meaning treat you like a MLTR (or more). Exactly.

  66. @BD

     

    How to deal with the burning desire to fuck as much as possible, very young personal or estimated 10 (or 9.8) who are also 100% (or 98%) sexually compatible?

    I am talking here about very hot women who display at least some of the typical behavioral and personality flaws explaned in this artlicle, such as very flickle. Making it clearly obvious that she isn’t OLTR material and she isn’t The One.

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2014/05/05/perfect-tens/

    And about 100% sexual compatibility being a rare occurence (therefore even more rare when it occurs with a 10, I think we are talking about a handful of times in a man’s life here, aren’t we?).

    However, a small percentage of women will be 100% in-sync with you sexually in every way you can imagine, down to the little details. Again, this is rare, but when it happens, it’s quite exciting and a huge amount of fun.

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2017/11/13/sexual-compatibility/

    Just that it’s objectivelyvery rare occurence to fuck that type of girl who is both a 10 and 100% sexually compatible so the desire to “get the most out of this sexual experience for the longest as possible” is VERY strong. (unless maybe the man is extremely vanilla and constantly fucks hordes of very young 10 for some exceptional reasons).

     

    Am I wrong to feel that if I follow all your corresponding advices, next time I happen to fuck this kind of girl, I will just happen to fuck her a couple of times before she LSNFTE or hard next me? Therefore I will miss on the quantity I can experience of this very high quality sexual opportunity.

     

    How would you deal differently with it while in an OLTRs vs. only MLTRs and FBs?

     

    This includes: how do you deal with the sexual experience with a girl like that feeling so off the chart in intensity that fucking other women feels like a small fraction of that intensity? (because young+hot 10+100% mindblowing sex, all the factors are combined to make it explosive). Meaning it kinda numbs you sexually with other women, and you can’t feel very enthousiast about them, it’s just bland in comparison.

     

    Or is there a time in a man’s life, where one just doesn’t really care about keeping such exceptionally high sexual quality and hot in his life? For me it feels very important. Or is it just a personal trait, and some men just never really care about that. Whether they fuck such a rare occurence girl only a couple of times or hundreds of times, it just feels irrelevant to that kind of man. How does it feel to you BD?

     

    Would “getting over” that kind of thing and having a “been there done that” attitude towards it be a requirement for a man to engage in an OLTR?

  67. The married guy I have been sleeping with for 7 yrs has never taken me on a date or spent a dime on me. Now and then when I haven’t slept with him for awhile he will try to bribe me and talk about how he wants to date me or buy me shoes or something but he never has lol. He just talks a lot of bs. He’s given me money before but it was to help him fold his laundry because his wife was overwhelmed after having a baby. He didn’t want her pissed off at him and we did have sex but no, he’s just a fuck buddy. I’ve got and had other guys that are/were just fuck buddies.  Most of them do pay for things and occasionally take me out.

  68. How to deal with the burning desire to fuck as much as possible, very young personal or estimated 10 (or 9.8) who are also 100% (or 98%) sexually compatible?

    http://blackdragonblog.com/off-topic

    Am I wrong to feel that if I follow all your corresponding advices, next time I happen to fuck this kind of girl, I will just happen to fuck her a couple of times before she LSNFTE or hard next me?

    Yes. It is extremely rare for a woman to fuck me just a few times then LSFNTE me. As a matter of fact, I don’t think that’s ever happened (outside of the sugar daddy world at least, but that’s different).

    LSNFTE‘s take a long time. And with OLTR‘s they never happen.

    How would you deal differently with it while in an OLTRs vs. only MLTRs and FBs?

    Nothing special beyond the normal differences between OLTR and MLTR.

    how do you deal with the sexual experience with a girl like that feeling so off the chart in intensity that fucking other women feels like a small fraction of that intensity? (because young+hot 10+100% mindblowing sex, all the factors are combined to make it explosive). Meaning it kinda numbs you sexually with other women, and you can’t feel very enthousiast about them, it’s just bland in comparison.

    I have never had that experience. I’ve been with women with some amazing sex who were clearly better than others, but none that made me “numb to other women.”  That’s oneitis.

    Would “getting over” that kind of thing and having a “been there done that” attitude towards it be a requirement for a man to engage in an OLTR?

    If it was an OLTR that you strongly wanted to last long-term (much longer then 3 years, certainly longer than 10 years), then yes. If it was a more casual, no-big-deal, serial OLTR situation, then no.

    I wouldn’t have considered settling down long-term with PF if I hadn’t already lived out every sexual fantasy I ever had, multiple times, as I talked about here.

  69. I have never had that experience. I’ve been with women with some amazing sex who were clearly better than others, but none that made me “numb to other women.”  That’s oneitis.

     

    With all due respect, I am not talking about oneitis here, certainly not with that kind of woman (10) whose behaviour and personality (fickle, messy life, possibly gold digger to some degree even if very minor) makes it clearly not girlfriend material. I am not talking about just fucking a 10, sure it’s not often but it’s not a hige deal. I am not talking about fucking a 100 % sexually compatible woman, sure it’s great and rare (I think I had this with 4 or 5 women among over 70, not counting p4p or sugar babies). I am talking about the fact that 100% sexual compatibility with a very young 10 is objectively a very rare occurence and the effect is quite explosive. How many times did this happen to you so far? Perhaps never? It happened once so far to me, and I am pretty sure it can happen again especially when putting the effort and numbers. Even more so with money. But I am not delusional, it clearly is a very rare occurence that may not happen in months or years. The probability of it happening next month is not zero, but it’s clearly very small, perhaps less than 2%. In the next 5 years, I dunno perhaps 50%? Anyways, the personality and behaviour make it very hard to have oneitis, it’s clear when this case occurs that a relationship cannot be very long, so it’s not a Disney “she is the one” feeling either. It’s just recognizing that it’s a very rare sexual experience, and in comparison, it does feel bland to fuck other women, not only because the sexual chemistry is so great, but because it is also combined with 10 body and face. I think I would need several weeks of abstinence from such a woman, maybe a few weeks of total abstinence actually, just to find again sexual enthousiasm for other women.

     

    See the nuance? If you insist to call this “sexual+looks oneitis”, then go for it. But there is some objective rarity to this kind of thing. I know as well very clearly what is NRE, you may dismiss this as NRE, but I am not even certain this is just “purely” NRE.

     

    Then my question is: imagine you are in an OLTR and one of the FB is a young 10 sexual freak 100% in synch. Of course you aren’t going to upgrade her to MLTR and she possibly isn’t even suitable to MLTR upgrade if you weren’t in an OLTR. But imagine if the sex with the OLTR feels bland… Isn’t that a  bit of a threat to the balance of the OLTR? What would you do? Or did you attain a certain detachment to sex that it still doesn’t affect you much. If so, what would you recommend to a man in an OLTR who fucks a couple of times such a woman, starts to feel sexually numbed with other women (I mean by that you can still
    get hard and fuck women, it can feel somewhat exciting he moment but it just feel more or less like nothing, no “afterglow” so to speak) by the experience. Should he stop seeing this FB before it gets overwhelming and possibly emotionally stain the OLTR?

     

    This is very rare but in the duration of a 10+ years OLTR I believe this can happen.

  70. Here is a problem or delima I have w dating in general and something I’ve noticed w myself on the OLTR vs FBs:

    I started to notice after implementation of BDs system that I would begin to desire to be with my 6 FB more than my hotter 8 OLTR or live in occasionally.  I thought this was interesting.  Obviously, looks and chemistry isn’t everything.

    Then, I’d promote one of the FBs and then I’d get sick of her and same cycle repeats.

    I have come to the conclusion that it’s not because of typical drama but life drama that comes w more serious relationships and how it exhausts me mentally when the OLTR or MLTR starts discussing important (but boring to me) issues with me.

    For example – my OLTR may wanna talk about her kids drama, family drama/gossip, work gossip, stupid shit she bought today, etc and after a while it sounds like birds chirping non-stop because those things bore me to death. I find myself daydreaming about fucking my FB all the sudden lol.

    I’d rather be talking about less important issues or sexual and kinky stuff w my FB sometimes.

    Any ideas on how to fix this paradox or do I just need to come to the realization that I may not be suitable to have an OLTR but should eventually just stick to FBs and MLTRs since I can deal w listening to all the life drama that most women want us to endure?

    Do you guys include in your frame, telling your OLTR to shut up or that I don’t wanna talk about anything today unless it’s sexual in nature? Lol. Sounds like an asshole but it’s true!

  71. I am talking about the fact that 100% sexual compatibility with a very young 10 is objectively a very rare occurence and the effect is quite explosive.

    Well, I’ve had that experience, but that’s not what you said in your comment above. You were talking about some kind of sexual experience that made you “numb” to sex with other women. I’ve never experienced that, and yes, it would be a form of oneitis if I did.

    imagine you are in an OLTR and one of the FB is a young 10 sexual freak 100% in synch.

    That’d be great!

    Of course you aren’t going to upgrade her to MLTR and she possibly isn’t even suitable to MLTR upgrade if you weren’t in an OLTR. But imagine if the sex with the OLTR feels bland

    Sex with my OLTR wouldn’t suddenly feel bland if I had great sex with a side-FB. Sex with my OLTR would be just as good. I know, because I’ve had the experience you’re talking about, and it didn’t make me like sex with other women any less. That’s the part you’re not understanding.

    This is very rare but in the duration of a 10+ years OLTR I believe this can happen.

    Only if you A) fuck a lot of FB‘s during your OLTR (which I do not plan on doing, nor want to do) and B) you’re susceptible to oneitis, which I am not.

    For example – my OLTR may wanna talk about her kids drama, family drama/gossip, work gossip, stupid shit she bought today, etc and after a while it sounds like birds chirping non-stop because those things bore me to death. I find myself daydreaming about fucking my FB all the sudden lol.

    That’s funny; I laughed when I read that. Yes, I’ve heard other men complain about this as well, though I’ve never had that particular problem. It must be a personality trait with some men.

    Any ideas on how to fix this paradox or do I just need to come to the realization that I may not be suitable to have an OLTR but should eventually just stick to FBs and MLTRs since I can deal w listening to all the life drama that most women want us to endure?

    That’s one option, but a better option is to only upgrade a woman to OLTR who is not very talkative for a woman (since all women are talkative).

    For example, Pink Firefly is very talkative and expressive (a common trait of more feminine women), but my ex-wife from my former marriage, who was more masculine, was very quiet (again, for a woman) and didn’t need to talk very much. So not all women are the same.

    Do you guys include in your frame, telling your OLTR to shut up or that I don’t wanna talk about anything today unless it’s sexual in nature? Lol. Sounds like an asshole but it’s true!

    You would not upgrade a woman to OLTR status in the first place if this trait bothered you as much as it does.

    If you end up with an OLTR who regularly irritates you, that’s your fault. You upgraded a woman you should not have. You should have kept her at the MLTR or FB level.

  72. Ok BD, so I went and read again all your articles snout oneitis. I am realy sorry to follow up on this but your statements seems contradictory with what you said:

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2014/11/26/oneitis-action-not-thought/

    I have oneitis! I think about this girl all the time! We’re not monogamous, I only see her once a week and never initiate contact, but man, I think about her every night! What can I do about this oneitis? I feel like a pussy!
     
    Guess what?
    You don’t have oneitis.
    The reason is simple: Oneitis is a set of actions, not a feeling.

    vs.

    You were talking about some kind of sexual experience that made you “numb” to sex with other women. I’ve never experienced that, and yes, it would be a form of oneitis if I did.

     

    I guess you haven’t had that experience or at lesst you didn’t have this feeling. Maybe you aren’t prone to it. I dunno. If you haven’t, I wish you to experience it, it’s powerful. Yes, sex with your OLTR would be as good as before, it’s just that the sex+young+10 is one order of magnitude stronger. My point was that you can still continue as usual, no different actions, thus not oneitis as per your previous article. However how you feel is drasticslly changed by this experience, at lest momentarily. At least that’s what happened for me.

     

    Reading our whole discussion I realise I used for this occurence some adjectives that could be used to describe drugs. So maybe I am describing some form of physical+sexual addiction. As in this experience it doesn’t matter so much who this woman is (actually her personality of a ten as you describe in your other article could be better if interchanged with someone else).

     

    Bottomline it seems to be more a matter of how the man percieves  that kind of rare sexual experiences. We seem to differ on that point.

  73. That’s funny; I laughed when I read that. Yes, I’ve heard other men complain about this as well, though I’ve never had that particular problem. It must be a personality trait with some men.

    Hah I have this “issue” myself. But it doesn’t bother me that much anymore and my guess is that I don’t go beyond MLTR. When I was monogamous this was a huge deal to me. I felt like I was choking with BS. Also this thing bothers women, so I don’t think we should complain. When you talk about masculine stuff with women they seem hugely disinterested between the lines. The once a week though solves this problem. You don’t have much time to get bored to death by too much BS.

    Curtis probably you should avoid OLTR stuff and just stick with high end MLTR. Also by all of your descriptions you seem to be in for huge drama down the line. You don’t seem to handle the OLTR scenario too well. Not only that you seem to care more than you should. I don’t know if you break the rule of once a week(with other women other than your OLTR), but if you do this is one of the reasons why this bothers you that much.

  74. @Gang- It’s hard to explain but at some level I’m sure it’s a competition with other women thing. If he’s flat out telling you you’re not number one it’s an embarrassment and a turnoff. I slept with a guy for a bit who had an open relationship deal where she knew and I just couldn’t continue. I felt used. If she didn’t know it would be better. I do know a guy that does that andit worked out better with him but without the romance or possibility of it turning into anything it can quickly lose its appeal. I’d still sleep with him, I think, but he’s also not clinical about it like BD and we have a friendship where we text each other back and forth and I can ask him advice about other men and things and he doesn’t act emotionally cold. I couldn’t do the way BD has agreed to treat his fuck baddies.

    Let’s short circuit LG with a bit of logic. You’ve been on this blog for years, yet you seem to disregard many things about the dynamics. If you’ve been a FB then you shouldn’t have had any emotions about the FBs. Meaning no constant texting, not going out on a date or not buying you things. If these things happen then it triggers a dynamic that in your brain says something more than a FB down the line. And by that you would feel certainly used because the actions of the guy did not match the perceived reality. This is why categorization is essential, because a guy knows exactly what he should do with the women, is not flip flopping between actions and does not confuse you.

    Clearly the men you are having sex with have no clue what they are doing, they want to be with you just for the sex but they are treating you more than that. This shows weakness as they want to bribe you to stick around. If they knew what they were doing they would have been treating you as such from the get go. And they wouldn’t give a rats ass if you wanted more or else. Then in turn you would most probably stick around(even if you currently say you wouldn’t, you will feel used) because there is something about this asshole who doesn’t play ball that makes you want to fuck his brains out. But you did not experience that so you wouldn’t know.

  75. @BD

    So, considering you work from home office too (at least I was thinking you did) and PF is very talkative, how do you brainstorm and get anything done?

    Sometimes I wear my Beats headphones so she gets the hint but now she just waves at me, taps me on the shoulder or puts something sexy on for attention.

    I recently read this book called WORK SIMPLY and she explains how our productivity is dramatically reduced by multi-tasking and the stopping/starting of thinking during work.

    So, I made ME a work space in the garage and now she wants to stay out here w/ me and away from her kids LMBO.  (don’t blame her)

    It’s not just that I need more silence but I feel like 80% of women do not know how to function with their man home all day (even though he is working).  It’s almost like they don’t think you are working unless you leave the home and it’s difficult to undo this Societal Programming too!

    Sure, they SAY they know I am working and need quite time but that doesn’t mean they know how to accomplish it on a subconscious level.

    What if I told her that when I am in the Office/Garage there is NO talking allowed?   That can only be done if in the house or not in the office LMBO.   (unless it’s urgent)  But everything is urgent to women lol.   If it’s not urgent, write it down on this “Discuss w/ Curtis Log” and we discuss it after 6PM and/or when he is not in the Office.

    Any other creative ideas?

  76. Do you guys include in your frame, telling your OLTR to shut up or that I don’t wanna talk about anything today unless it’s sexual in nature?

    If you don’t want to talk about anything, unless it’s sexual in nature, then she isn’t your OLTR. She’s just an FB. You seem to be unsuitable for anything else.

     

  77. Yes, sex with your OLTR would be as good as before, it’s just that the sex+young+10 is one order of magnitude stronger.

    You didn’t say that above; once again you’re changing your argument. I can’t have a discussion with you if you keep changing your position.

    So, considering you work from home office too (at least I was thinking you did) and PF is very talkative, how do you brainstorm and get anything done?

    I work from home, PF is a corporate girl who works 40 hours a week plus a very long commute. Most of the time she won’t be home.

    Any other creative ideas?

    Your rules are too restrictive in my opinion. PF and I have had some discussions about how I need “alone time” and/or “quiet time” on a regular basis. But again, PF is gone all day; it sounds like your OLTR is home all day. In that scenario, yes, you need to block off some daily “do not disturb” time with your wife.

  78. Didn’t say ever or never talk about anything.  Just that in my experience, an OLTR w FBs is more difficult than multiple MLTRs or FBs and seems to cause less happiness and is slightly more complicated and complex to manage.

    But I am a Libertarian and love my space and freedom too.  Very independent and can cook and do everything myself mostly.

    So, it kinda seems like having an OLTR leads to more Unhappiness lol.  But I’m still in this 2 years and learning and adjusting….

     

     

     

     

  79. Just that in my experience, an OLTR w FBs is more difficult than multiple MLTRs or FBs

    Correct. That’s exactly what I said in the article.

    it kinda seems like having an OLTR leads to more Unhappiness lol

    You’re referring to the cohabitation, not the OLTR. Fuck yes, living with a woman full-time can indeed damage happiness if you’re not ridiculously careful with all kinds of pre-planning and maintain constant frame control, as I’ve been saying for years. The problem is most men don’t do any of that when they move in with a woman, or they get complacent, PUA’s and Alpha 1.0’s included.

  80. Do you guys include in your frame, telling your OLTR to shut up or that I don’t wanna talk about anything today unless it’s sexual in nature?

    LOL, it’s amusing that this came up, as I have been experiencing something similar in my OLTR, only in my case, its the man who starts to annoy me with incessant talking about things that bore me. I’m very tolerant and I do try to be supportive of his interests and passions. Example, he came home the other morning, bright and chipper, talking my ear off about golf and his new clubs he ordered and experimenting with his swing, etc, while I was up and around getting dressed for work. Finally, he stops and asks if everything was ok. “Babe. Its 6:30 in the morning. I just got up, and I do not want to talk about golf right now.” I think it shocked him a little bit.

    @BD,

    I am finding recently also that things have been subtly changing in our relationship (we are going on 2 years now). He is “losing his edge” so to speak, in terms of our relationship settling into this very comfortable zone. I absolutely do not want that to happen, because I know what it causes, and have already started to see some of those effects. Is there something I can do to help him Alpha back up a bit? I feel like I crave that dominant maleness that he exhibited for so long, and I realize there may have to be somewhat of a balance of that and being in love/affectionate with someone.

  81. Y’all need to get a Duplex like asap LMBO.

    I’m thinking about this too.

    I’ve noticed after living w my lady that I’m not as motivated to work out as I used to be (3x per week).

    Btw – I have a rule that we don’t discuss anything important in the morning and honestly I usually try to hide from most women in the mornings lol.

    Women be cranky in the mornings and this I have tracked and noticed w over 10-20 ladies last 2 years.

    I also try to not send ANY woman a text or call until after lunch now.  Not sure if it’s the brain chemistry, coffee or what.  I try to slide out of bed very slowly and quietly and off into the office before she gets up.  Then, if she comes my way before 11 am, I quickly grab my phone as if I’m on an important call lol.  If she still wants to discuss something I now just tell her to make a list and we can discuss them at night after sex Lmbo (joking but not lol).

    Plus, I think it’s good to wake up and go several hours w/out talking so people miss each other more and wonder why they so quite.

  82. Is there something I can do to help him Alpha back up a bit?

    Yes. Threaten to leave him and mean it. It would also help if you strongly implied you’re getting a little attracted to a guy at your work because he’s “so Alpha.” (Again, it’s best if that were the truth.)

  83. It would also help if you strongly implied you’re getting a little attracted to a guy at your work because he’s “so Alpha.” (Again, it’s best if that were the truth.)

    Not at work, but I definitely have a potential FB that I am working on securing, (availability has been a problem for the last couple weeks). My SO knows how attracted I am to him (former marine, good looking, great body, and runs his own business). He also knows I have been going out WAY more than my usual lately. I have not wanted to over verbalize anything more than necessary, and I certainly do not feel that we are at a point where it is sink or swim. I am very aware of our relationship dynamics though, and want to prevent it from deteriorating into something that DOES make me want to leave. Just being Aware and ProActive 🙂

  84. @Curtis

    Y’all need to get a Duplex like asap LMBO.

    Hahaha.. that would be a spectacular idea, except then I would have to clean BOTH houses. I’m not about that life 😉

  85. Hey hey- it doesn’t work that way for me. I’m not interested in men who act like assholes to me. Lots of men on this blog and pua circles seem to think women like that but I think those are the guys that overcompensate for having been nerds or whatever and unable to attract women in the past, the ones who think it’s necessary to be an ass to get women to like them. The men I  am attracted to are not like that. Most of them are alpha types from a culture that teaches them to be smooth with women, rather than jerks. I like that…

     

  86. @ Jack outside the box (way up there). You’re so silly. I don’t even live in the south. Plenty, though not all, men here have manners. It’s very attractive when done the right way. It’s not about being an “errand bitch boy” but about being a gentleman. There is a difference. The gentleman does it without being asked and without expectations from the woman. Picture the sexy pool boy vs the lazy husband, lol.

  87. @LG

    LMBO.  I sure hope you have one of those 4 boys you have (your sons) cleaning that pool for ya and not one of those guys your fucking!

    Just curious – if one of your men were to just start cleaning the pool (w/out being asked) while your boys are setting around, would that turn you on?  Assuming he did it the right way of course lol. 😉

    Now, if you don’t have a pool, just replace it with something else like car or mowing….

    I just left my brothers place and I overheard his wife ask him if he could make the bed!  And his wife doesn’t work!  They have 3 girls, one of which is 2 but give me a break.  He works full-time.  I am sure if he said no, he wouldn’t get any.   His oldest daughter is 11 and she could make the bed just as easy.  I wanted to vomit….

    Yes, he made the bed like a good lil boy despite me telling him not to, which explains why they only have sex on Valentines day LMBO.  I just want to punch men like this.

    However, if I was a chic, I suppose I would operate the same strategy as you are.  Get laid and get a hot man to dance around or mow yard w/ shirt off before sex.  I mean, it be like me having a chic scrub my floor for me in a bikini and then having sex too after she got me all excited.  What a great deal that is right.  You get laid AND pool cleaned too without having to nag my own kids lol.

    Can you imagine a guy with a Match profile that said:

    “I love it when a woman shows her feminine qualities and will cook me a hot meal without being asked to.  It is very romantic, sexy and shows she is a TRUE lady and not lazy….”  

    Yall think that would go over well? =)

     

  88. @Cherie86

    Hell No!  If I move out someday and keep dating same lady (ladies) they ain’t no way I would ever expect her or ask her to clean my place.  Additionally, she wouldn’t be able to tell me to put my toilet seat down either.  At my place, I’d leave it UP at all times =)    If she didn’t like my dirty place or toilet up and it bugged her and she felt bad for me, fine.  But she knows not to use that as a way to get me to make her bed or mow her yard next time we at her place.  You either do it because you want to, not because you want me to do something in return someday.

    That is like chics that tell me they love me 10x per day.  Finally, I just say “OK” and smile or I say “I love YouTube” really fast =)

    They are not saying it because they Love me, but because they want me to tell them I love them over and over and over and ugh…..

    Get this – one time a lady said it several times within one night and so I said:

    “oh.  You already said that earlier.  Are you OK?  Your not becoming forgetful already are you?  Senile or Dementia setting in already huh?  Or you say it so much you probably forget lol”  (with a silly attitude)

    Her:  “Well, I just wanted to hear you say it back for once maybe….jerk”

    So, when a lady volunteers to clean my home, hell no lol.  She wants something in return 80% of time.  Maybe not that week, but eventually…..

     

  89. Curtis- I see men say stuff like that all the time- doesn’t bother me, why would it? I especially see those types of comments from black men (which is who I sleep with and date) so maybe it’s a cultural thing. There are all kinds of expectations out there for women and likewise for men.

    I actually do think it’s super hot when a guy does things like mow the lawn without being asked. I’m being serious. This guy I slept with once (though now he has a girlfriend and we are not currently having sex) was telling me how he was sick but couldn’t just lay there and got up and mowed the lawn and I’m like he has to know this is turning me on and frustrating me now that we are off limits to each other (I know his girlfriend). I love hard working men…

  90. @LG

    Fair enough =)  I like to date women that have been w/ black guys and convert them lol.

    Just curious on a psychology/ brain science level here – do your boys ever do errands like this without being asked?  I am not judging you on this because most women will probably say no they whine etc.

    But I do find this an interesting topic and was married for 19 years.  It is still baffling as to my ex-wife would desire this trait in a man but not teach it to her own Son?  I find it kinda hypocritical or illogical maybe?  But I am a man and use logic and analysis in my reasoning lol ;))

  91. @LG

    Fair enough =)  I like to date women that have been w/ black guys and convert them lol.

    Just curious on a psychology/ brain science level here – do your boys ever do errands like this without being asked?  I am not judging you on this because most women will probably say no they whine etc.

    But I do find this an interesting topic and was married for 19 years.  It is still baffling as to my ex-wife would desire this trait in a man but not teach it to her own Son?  I find it kinda hypocritical or illogical maybe?  But I am a man and use logic and analysis in my reasoning lol ;))

  92. Yes my boys sometimes clean or do chores without being asked. Not always, but sometimes. My 13 yr old is the best about it but the others do occasionally too. They know I have a lot on my plate and can’t keep up with it all without their help and that they have to pitch in.

  93. Hey hey- it doesn’t work that way for me. I’m not interested in men who act like assholes to me. Lots of men on this blog and pua circles seem to think women like that but I think those are the guys that overcompensate for having been nerds or whatever and unable to attract women in the past, the ones who think it’s necessary to be an ass to get women to like them. The men I  am attracted to are not like that. Most of them are alpha types from a culture that teaches them to be smooth with women, rather than jerks. I like that…

    I don’t mean assholes in your typical sense. I mean assholes in the sense of I do what I want in my life don’t try to tell me what to do or control me, it won’t work. I treat women well, they have amazing time when with me never fight with them yet they pay part of their bills without me opening my mouth. Yet they know they control me  because I will just leave without me opening my mouth. Yet they know they are not the priority(even if they try hard to be) without me opening my mouth. It’s not being an ass, it’s standing up for your happiness and freedom.

    It does work that way for you, you just didn’t meet/live through that guy. I’ve been and still am with lots of women just like you, who claimed they won’t do monogamy, who claimed they want men to be gentlemen and treat them right. Yet they stick around even going through with things like a) seeing them once a week b) texting/calling once a week c) paying 50%+ of the bills when we go out d) accepting they are not the one I have sex with etc. And most are normal corporate women with high degrees and can find any man they want.

    What you have in your life are cool betas. Men who play “smooth” to get a pussy and sex and will jump hoops and go through hell for that pussy. They will almost obey to the pussy’s every command like little dogs. You have guys who won’t stand up for themselves when you give them ultimatums. You have men who you can easily play them with your fingers and make you their priority in their life. These are not alphas. Learn the difference. An alpha(1.0) wants to control YOU.

  94. @Curtis

    If I move out someday and keep dating same lady (ladies) they ain’t no way I would ever expect her or ask her to clean my place.

    I wouldn’t put up with someone expecting or asking me to do tasks for them all the time either. Even when we had our own places, I would come over and clean up, do laundry, cook etc for my SO. As a man who was busy with other priorities, these things often got overlooked, and I found out quickly how much it pleased him to have me helping with those things, which pleased me in turn. I’m a giver though, that’s my default love language. He certainly never expected them, nor did I do them in return for later favors or things to hold over his head in any way. I still had my own house, laundry, children to care for at the same time and it got tiring maintaining two households after awhile I will admit!

  95. In keeping with the topic of a man doing tasks when asked or not, I can chime in my 2 cents.  While I DO want to be able to ask my man for help in doing things from time to time, I discovered I absolutely do not want him to jump to it anytime I ask him.

    Case in Point: This weekend, while putting up christmas lights and decorating the house (which he refused to help with, but agreed to buy what I needed if I wanted to do it myself. (Classic Alpha response :)) he came out and told me I still had more stuff in the storage shed I forgot about. “Oh, Great! Would you mind bringing it out for me please?” He paused…and contemplated…and in that moment I realized he may very well say no, and I would have to do it myself. And that was SO much more attractive then him just saying “Of course sweetie, be right back”.  When he did agree to it, as I was tangled up in lights all over the place, I was much more appreciative, because I knew that he in no way had to.

     

  96. @Cherie: The issue is not doing tasks. The issue is expectations. I won’t do something for a woman just because I should be a gentleman and that is what is expected of me. I’ll do it because I feel like it. For example I’ll pick up heavy stuff for a woman and take them up to her apartment. Not because they said so or because is expected of me, but because I know they’ll have a hard time taking that stuff up to their apartment. If I don’t do it and some woman gets angry at me and throws drama she’ll get a soft next.

    Similarly I don’t expect or care what a woman will do for me. I don’t expect a woman to cook for me or do choires, but a lot do it and I take that as a huge bonus. But I won’t feel like this woman is a letdown if she doesn’t do these stuff.

    If a woman asks nicely as per your example I’ll do it if I’m free to do it and I’m not occupied with other matters. If I say no for whatever reason and the woman throws drama because of it she’ll get a next.

    So the problem is not telling the guy to take the garbage out. The problem is the expectation or the demand. Since many people build up their OLTR live in marriage the wrong way these issues will cause problems. Instead these issues could have been solved with predefined rules such as: I bring the money home you take care of the house(so don’t expect me to take the garbage out). Or you can get a helping hand in the house with your money etc.

     

  97. Then it must be just me, but yes when I date someone I like I do want to see her more often. But perhaps this will go away later when I get better with women and have enough of them to keep me busy.

    Bingo. That. You just don’t have enough practice with this yet and are still getting beta / oneitisy feelings.

    To be honest its not that I care that much, its a question of scarcity for me also, because I am just not really getting that good results.

  98. My OLTR and I broke up back in July. It was very sad as the reasoning was simply because we had grown to have differing life plans (i.e. Her wanting children within the next couple years and me potentially never wanting children). Our deep emotional connection was and is still there, even though I’ve since upgraded a couple of my FBs to MLTR status with great success. We have seen each other once or twice a month since, and it has mostly been positive with amazing sex. However, she has continually been getting more upset and sad and a lot of the positive aspects of us meeting up are either gone or overshadowed by the negatives. I don’t have oneitis because I truly believe  I’ll be able to find another girl that will qualify for OLTR someday and be as good or potentially better, but I still have a strong desire to have an ongoing relationship with my ex OLTR. Is this even a possibility? Is there a good way to keep her as an MLTR? FYI this is a woman I truly love and was with for over 4 years, not just a “she’s not like the rest”.

    Thanks BD

  99. We have seen each other once or twice a month since, and it has mostly been positive with amazing sex. However, she has continually been getting more upset and sad and a lot of the positive aspects of us meeting up are either gone or overshadowed by the negatives.

    I don’t understand. You’re still seeing and banging (in a romantic context it seems) an OLTR you’ve broken up with?

    Is this even a possibility? Is there a good way to keep her as an MLTR?

    Since you broke up because she wants kids, I see at least two possibilities:

    1° this is a case of “don’t listen to what they say, only watch what they do”, and she ends up *not* getting with a guy to have kids with, and you hit her up after some time, you bang, then you go back to FB/MLTR then possibly OLTR.

    2° she’s serious about having kids and she actually gets into a new serious relationship, in which case, if you’re okay with that, I guess she can cheat on her guy with you, and you make her a FB or MLTR (but not OLTR obviously).

     

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