One of the guys over at the Alpha 2.0 Community asked this question:

BD you mention you “never control women” and “literally let them do whatever they want”. It would help if you could elaborate on that! How to deal with minor annoyances/behaviors of her you would like to correct. How all of that relates to leading and outcome independence.

One of the hallmarks of the Alpha Male 2.0, that which separates him from both his beta male and Alpha Male 1.0 brothers, is that he is outcome independent. As I explain in my book, that doesn’t mean he doesn’t care about his objectives. It simply means he doesn’t care about any one interaction or event. If he’s going out on a bunch of first dates, yes, he wants to get laid; that’s his objective. But on any one individual date, or in dealing with any one individual woman, he absolutely does not give a shit at all about how the interaction will end up.

This applies to his family, his business and career, his investments, and his physical health. It can even extend, as it does with me, to his views on the world, politics, religion, and culture. I care strongly about my long-term personal objectives, but I very little regarding the details, and probably never will. I’m too busy working on my Mission and being happy.

The reason for outcome independence is twofold:

1. It makes you a more attractive man. As I’ve said many times, outcome independence is the single, most attractive non-physical quality men can have to women. It doesn’t apply to just women either. In dealing with other men in business (as just one example), it’s also “attractive.” People generally want to do business with people who don’t need the business, not some guy who is starving and hungry for it.

2. It ensures your long-term, consistent happiness. If you get angry every time your MLTR does something stupid, or when one of your investments goes down 14% in one day, or when a football player kneels during the national anthem, or when you gain three pounds, or when an SJW says something insane on YouTube, then you’re never going to be long-term happy. It’s literally impossible. Not giving a shit ensures your odds for long-term happiness go way up.

The way this concept extends into your sexual and romantic relationships with women is to let them do whatever the hell they want. That doesn’t mean you’re a beta and let women treat you like shit or walk all over you though. Here’s what I mean:

  • If she does something you don’t like, and it’s minor, you don’t give a shit, and don’t react at all. Who cares? You have bigger things to concern yourself with, or should.
  • If she does something you don’t like, and it’s moderate, you soft next her ass, perhaps after giving her one warning, then go spend time with another one of your women, and circle back to her when she’s calmed down.
  • If she does something you don’t like, and it’s serious, you hard next her, or downgrade the relationship type, or give her an unusually long soft next.

The key is that none of the above items involve telling her what to do. At no point are you telling her what to do or forbidding her to do certain things. You’re letting her do whatever she wants. You’re just responding to what she does.

When you tell a woman what to do, it creates both drama and work. When you tell her what to do, or not do…

1. You now have to monitor her behavior to make sure she actually follows your orders. The typical example is the Alpha Male 1.0 boyfriend checking his girlfriend’s phone, trying to hack into her email, or stalking her Instagram page. Again, you have better things to do with your time, or should.

2. You have to have an argument with her when she fails to follow your orders, which as a human being and a woman, she is virtually guaranteed to do. This damages your happiness.

3. You have encouraged her to start hiding things from you, and this is not healthy for a long-term relationship. (I suppose if all you want for the rest of your life are short-term relationships, then feel free to do whatever you want. But habitually hiding things from your long-term partner isn’t going to work.)

None of this is conducive to long-term consistent happiness.

The true blue Alpha Male 1.0 reads this and thinks, “So what? So I have more work and drama. Who cares? She needs to do what she’s told!” I’m sure I’ll get some guys say something like this in the comments. As I’ve said many times, if long-term happiness is not your priority in life, feel free to ignore all of my advice and be as bossy and domineering with your women as you like. You’ll never be as consistently happy as me, but if you’re wedded to the Alpha Male 1.0 model, you probably don’t care.

Moving on, an analogy to this control vs. respond model is raising kids. When my children were little, when they were misbehaving, their mother did it the standard, Alpha Male 1.0 method of commanding. She would say something like, “Clean up your mess!”

Invariably, my kids, being kids, would not clean up their mess, or would not clean it up fast enough, resulting in a mom-on-kid argument and repeated commands.

I never did that. I don’t do drama, since I don’t do unhappiness. So I raised my kids the Alpha 2.0 way. Instead of saying “Clean up your mess!” which is telling someone what to do, I would say, in a calm tone of voice, “See the clock? Good. If this mess is not cleaned up in 20 minutes, you’re going to your room for three hours with no Nintendo. Now feel free to do whatever you want.”

Result: Within 20 minutes the mess would be cleaned up, virtually every time.

Their mom argued with my kids all the time. I almost never had to.

It works the same way with women. Instead of the Alpha 1.0 frame of “You must do what I say!” my frame is, “You can do literally whatever you want, and I’ll never tell you what to do, because you can’t ever tell me what to do. But, since my time is finite, if you do something I don’t like, I’m going to spend my time with someone else.”

This is why Alpha Male 1.0’s have near-constant drama and conflict in their woman lives and the Alpha 2.0 virtually never does.

Is it easy to be with a woman, sexually and/or romantically, and really let her do whatever the hell she wants? Granted, not at first, at least not for a lot of men. Because of false Societal Programming and your own male Obsolete Biological Wiring, you have been trained your entire life by your society and your biology to start laying down rules and orders as soon as you start dating someone. Not doing any of that is going to feel weird the first time you try it. But as in all things, once you do it a few times, it becomes no big deal, and the long-term happiness you receive as a reward is more than worth it.

(Women also have been “trained” to start laying down rules and orders as soon as they start dating you, and this goes double (if not triple) if they’re over the age of 33. This is something you’ll have to mitigate and manage in a nonmonogamous, Alpha 2.0 relationship, via your frame and relationship management techniques, but that’s a topic for another time, and one I’ve discussed before.)

Another side to this that men often forget is that you are more than welcome to verbalize or subcommunicate the behaviors you like in a woman and the behaviors you don’t. “Don’t ever give me drama!” is a command, but saying something like, “I hate drama. I never do it. I won’t spend any time with anyone who gives me drama,” is a statement of preference. That’s perfectly fine. Any woman in a relationship with you for more than several weeks will start to figure out what you like and what you hate. Communicating your preferences, so she knows what you like and don’t like, is perfectly fine.

Lastly, because I know this topic will come up if I don’t address it, yes, there are exceptions to this model. If you have a very serious, long-term OLTR, particularly if you live with her and/or raise children with her, there sadly has to be a few commands and rules that need to be followed by both of you. As an Alpha 2.0, I don’t like that, but that’s the price you pay for that kind of long-term pair-bonding. (And if that price is too high for you, you should simply avoid pair-bonding and stick with MLTR‘s and FB‘s. Perfectly fine.)

This is the only exception though. Outside of that, stating preferences, then nexting and downgrading instead of commanding is a better model to follow for your long-term happiness.

45 Comments on “In Relationships: Commanding vs Responding

  1. But, since my time is finite, if you do something I don’t like, I’m going to spend my time with someone else.

    That sounds like an ultimatum. If a woman said it you would probably consider this an ultimatum and next her? A post on ultimatums vs expressing preferences with examples would be very appreciated!

  2. Wait what?!!
    You can’t apply this “Outcome Independent” thing to your physical health. You only have ONE body, hence just only ONE health of possibility. You can’t deny that you’re entrapped to this one fact of reality.

    Even this is particularly more true as man age, for every decline of his physical condition is more unlikely to reverse that to the original state before.

    You can’t ignore(abuse) this one life area for the sake of the other six.

    Ignore this at your own perils!

  3. Hi BD,
    I assume you follow the same rules in bussines. Hard nexting the client when he’s mor trouble than it’s worth is a no brainer. Did you ever soft next a client? How does it work?
    Thanks,
    Michal

  4. @John,

    That sounds like an ultimatum.

    This isn’t something SAID directly. Its a frame of being/mindset. SAYING this outright would def result in drama from a woman. Ultimatums are complete BS and unacceptable.

  5. if you live with her and/or raise children with her, there sadly has to be a fewcommands and rules that need to be followed by both of you. As an Alpha 2.0, I don’t like that, but that’s the price you pay for that kind of long-term pair-bonding. (And if that price is too high for you, you should simply avoid pair-bonding and stick with MLTR’s and FB’s. Perfectly fine.

    Yep, that’s me. That’s why I can’t imagine myself in a live-in OLTR. I have zero tolerance for orders and hate “having” to comply with others’ demands. I prefer doing whatever the fuck I want without even the opportunity of drama arising.

  6. @Gorilla Body

    Wait what?!!You can’t apply this “Outcome Independent” thing to your physical health. You only have ONE body, hence just only ONE health of possibility. You can’t deny that you’re entrapped to this one fact of reality.

    He meant you shouldn’t pay attention to details, not that you shouldn’t give a fuck about your physical health. As long as you are healthy, details are unimportant.

  7. “outcome independence is the single, most attractive non-physical quality men can have to women”

    Oh, I thought it was that and “confidence”.  Although I have a hard time understanding what confidence really is.  I used to think it meant believing you would succeed at something for no reason.

    Although I’ve always felt like the ones you don’t care about that much are the ones that like you more.

     

  8. MOST DEF BD

    I’m currently reading How to Find Freedom in an Unfree World and Finished Looking Out For #1 .

    I’m not saying don’t vote, because obviously there are tax issues and liberties like Marijuana, Guns, and Abortion to protect.. However I really feel unplugging from Politics or becoming a Libertarian can Drastically increase your happiness versus being an SJW or a Hardcore Right Winger. Which in reality once you’ve read The Unchained Man you may have already done. In My Opinion crucial to being an Alpha 2.0.

    I’m not saying that at times you may not need the Alpha 1.0 method at times in your relationship, but in the end if you have to result to it too often is She worth it? Doing so is breaking a promise to yourself to be happy if you do too often.

  9. This isn’t something SAID directly

    Actually, it can be. I’ve said that directly to most women I’ve seen for more than a couple dates. It has never resulted in drama or anything else. I’m expressing a preference, not delivering an ultimatum. Don’t tell her if she’s already upset, of course, but otherwise you have nothing to worry about.

  10. This mentality works very well in business relationships.  It forces you to prioritize what is really consistent with the relationship and success of same.  Additionally it is a mental discipline and planning tool as you have planned in advance what you are going to do in such situations.  Even something as simple as renting to a roommate or having a live-in GF for a time is served well by this.  The work that you do on yourself before the relationship is even started is most important.   Whether it be business, casual business or relationship, you are determining what you can really live with, is beneficial and how you will react including best and worst case scenarios.  There is a massive emotional discipline to this process which cannot be overlooked.  Once you achieve the latter, even unexpected things do not raise stress levels and one begins to on-the-fly make low stress decisions and sometimes enjoy it.

    People also take you seriously when you state clearly and openly what you absolutely will and will not accept even more so when you act decisively and coolly.  It used to be called grace under pressure.  Most misinterpret this as swallowing unbelievable shit as it comes to you beyond reasonable limits.  This is horseshit even in the military.  In the face of such you simply state the facts without emotion and make the people inflicting it upon you deal with it.  If you are doing the right thing, planned ahead and disciplined yourself, you will make your point.  People are impressed when a calm, unaffected person states the facts, walks away and accepts the consequences.

    My particular logic is that I am not going to waste a minute of my limited life-time [SIC] on feeling bad or stressing out.  Even when past things cause me to have a negative emotion, the thought is that this situation or person is continuing to waste my happiness time.  This discipline works to let go of the past remarkably well.  Perhaps it would work with real cases of PTSD as it is making a new pathway to happiness as well as a positive action, such as thinking about happiness and/or doing else something positive.

    It seems that outcome independent could be called negative emotion (or drama) independent and it involves prioritization, future planning and the ability to let go.  So many times we are caught up in maintaining something bad for us as a habit with no logical reason other than just doing the same thing over and over again.

    BTW attended your business session in Philly a few weeks ago.  For anyone considering in the future it was worth every penny as the most succinct, turn-key, logical and immediately applicable systems that I have ever reviewed.  The details, source providers and setup portions alone will save weeks of research, learning and testing not to mention the associated costs.  I will email you privately regarding.

  11. That sounds like an ultimatum. If a woman said it you would probably consider this an ultimatum and next her? A post on ultimatums vs expressing preferences with examples would be very appreciated!

    You’re right, but you’re oversimplifying. If a woman said “You must be monogamous or I’ll do X!” then that’s an ultimatum and she’ll get a soft next right then and there.

    But imagine if a woman said, “I have the RIGHT to give you drama whenever I want! If you don’t go along with that, I’ll do X!” What person would not want to next someone like that?

    There’s ultimatums (that are threatened and usually verbalized, like Cherie said) and there’s enforcing basic standards. The former is rare, but the latter just about everyone does to some degree.

    You can’t ignore(abuse) this one life area for the sake of the other six.

    OI regarding your health does not mean you “ignore” your health. It means you have a long-term goal for your health you feel strongly about, but you don’t worry at all about the day-to-day minor fluctuations in your weight, muscle mass, etc. Please read this, since you don’t fully understand what I mean by OI.

    Oh, I thought it was that and “confidence”.

    Confidence and OI are both required, but if you made me choose, OI is a stronger source of attraction.

    Although I have a hard time understanding what confidence really is.  I used to think it meant believing you would succeed at something for no reason.

    It means you know you can handle the situation with little or no doubts.

  12. Instead of saying “Clean up your mess!” which is telling someone what to do, I would say, in a calm tone of voice, “See the clock? Good. If this mess is not cleaned up in 20 minutes, you’re going to your room for three hours with no Nintendo. Now feel free to do whatever you want.”

    LMAO my mom did pretty much the same thing when I was growing up. Dad was different, he would ground me for any given reason lol. He died from cancer at 53. Hmm, wonder why?

    You can’t apply this “Outcome Independent” thing to your physical health. You only have ONE body, hence just only ONE health of possibility. You can’t deny that you’re entrapped to this one fact of reality.

    Alright then, let’s follow through on that. So let’s say you have made the decision to be outcome dependent on your physical health. So to do this, you spend lots of time and money finding out EXACTLY what to do to avoid bad health in your later years. And by the way, this kind of information changes pretty much all the time. Here are a few examples:

    Steak, chicken, and eggs (which is pretty much all I ever eat) are bad for you according to one expert on one day, and good for you according to another expert on another day. Some experts say that processed stuff is negligible as long as you are active, some say that processed stuff is poison no matter how active you are. Some experts say you need to lift weights every day. Some experts say that lifting weights will destroy your joints so just run a lot and do core exercises. Some experts say you should drink half a gallon of water a day. Some others say you should drink a gallon. Some others say you should drink 2 gallons. And so on and so on.

    If you are outcome dependent on your physical health, you’ll waste lots of time, energy, and money stressing out about every last thing you have done to your body to where all the good things you are attempting to do for your physical health will undo itself because outcome dependence = stress and pressure. And guess what? NOTHING is more harmful to your physical health than stress and pressure. I’m certain that health experts can agree on that observation.

    When BD says to be outcome independent in physical health, he more than likely means that you should follow some general fundamentals that experts have agreed on for good health: as much physical activity as you can, good quality rest, limiting drug + alcohol use, NOT stressing out about stuff, etc. But if you go a couple of days without going to the gym or have an occasional drink or cheat meal you’ll be good because you know you’ll be alright because you have the fundamentals down.

    Outcome dependent attitudes = Stress and pressure on yourself and everyone around you and it MURDERS physical and emotional health. I’m convinced that being outcome dependent can even give you cancer.

  13. This isn’t something SAID directly

    Actually, it can be. I’ve said that directly to most women I’ve seen for more than a couple dates. It has never resulted in drama or anything else. I’m expressing a preference, not delivering an ultimatum. Don’t tell her if she’s already upset, of course, but otherwise you have nothing to worry about.

    I have said to women in the past things like that I would not tolerate refusing sex and other things for example, it was not said in a threatening way but as a meter of factly / just stating what is /isnt okay for me with someone I want to go serious with. Usually I set only 1-2 rules as a baseline and it gets accepted, also partly because you have to know when and how to say it but also partly because she sees its just that and besides it there arent any other rules.

  14. Being “outcome independent” isn’t easy for me to digest… but the detail of “soft next” as opposed to picking a fight is great lesson.  The “if this, then this” response is perfect… I like it.  “Kids” example was very clear.

    I’d add that I like to give POSITIVE feedback, immediately, when she does something I like.  Anything via text that is compliance related or feminine or cute or… I immediately call it out, and say I like it… because I want more of it.

    Recent example:
    HER: [via text] Are you going to spank me tonight?
    ME: I love it when you tell me what you want.

    I’m trying to shape her behavior TOWARD things I like, as much as I am “away” from this I don’t like.  In the example above, I like that she’s asking to be spanked, and that she is opening up to what she wants sexually.  I don’t need her to tell me what to do (that’s not the point), but I like it when she is sex-talking with me and I want to reward that.

    Declaring “positive” rules doesn’t have the same pitfalls/drama that declaring “negative” rules does.

  15. Confidence is a kind of outcome independence. It’s included in OI then.

    I think you should call the readers’ attention to Greene’s book The 48 Laws of Power (or the follow-up focusing specifically on mape-female relations he wrote).

    The only way to make ex Alpha 1.0s like I surrender to reason is have us understand that, actually, we will get more obedience and compliance acting the 2.0 way.

  16. I can feel after your teaching, alpha 1.0 may seem masculine from outside because he constantly tries to correct a woman when things don’t go on his wishes. But alpha 2.0 is using sub communication (ie soft nexting her, don’t say anything in these few days, and then only come back find her, ”hope” she gets the message.)

    The truth is, it’s just like treating a psychopathic woman. When she gives u silent treatment, you give her the same thing. And it drives her crazy.

    Non verbal communication is the best thing to communicate with any woman.
    Not verbal, when a man often uses verbal clarification to convince a woman, he’s not doing a job.

    Correct me if i’m wrong, blackdragon.

  17. BD am I right in pairing Outcome Independence with high emotional intelligence? Would they be cousins? Is OI twins with indifference?

    My understanding is that emotional intelligence is the ability to recognize your own and others emotional states and how this will affect you, meaning how to categorize the situation within your zone of control?

     

     

  18. Outcome dependent attitudes = Stress and pressure on yourself and everyone around you and it MURDERS physical and emotional health. I’m convinced that being outcome dependent can even give you cancer.

    I think so too, chronic stress equals excess cortisol thereby increasing inflammation in the body and overall lowering or exciting your immune response. Definite recipe for dread diseases.

  19. Thank you for this article.

    However, how does one distinguish between OI and indifference? It appears to be the same, but indifference has this slightly negative subtone (at least in my understanding), in a sense that it leads to resentment. (?)

    It’s common knowledge that women want to be led. If you look up the meaning of “leading” you’ll find:
    a) to be in command
    b) to guide/to take someone somewhere.

    I suppose that an Alpha 1.0 would lead by “being in command”, whereas an Alpha 2.0 leads by “guiding” her. And he does this by HIS ACTIONS in RESPONSE to HER BEHAVIOR (i.e. soft nexting) which is non-verbal.

    As a beginner, I find it especially hard to rely on subcommunication only to lead/guide women, I guess it sometimes comes off as if I am not a good leader (and therefor not a good man) because I just can’t verbalize it. (I am very capable of leading the alpha 1.0 way, though it does not make me happy)
    Is there a way to guide/lead VERBALLY without loosing one’s Outcome Independence?

  20. Women will get bitchy or will give you a shit test from time to time – How do you react to those moments? What do you do to go through those tests?

  21. Confidence is a kind of outcome independence. It’s included in OI then.

    You read my mind, sort of. I have a post going up on Monday that talks about how for OI to exist, some level of confidence is required, but the reverse is not true. You’ll see what I mean on Monday.

    The only way to make ex Alpha 1.0s like I surrender to reason is have us understand that, actually, we will get more obedience and compliance acting the 2.0 way.

    That’s a very good point. It still won’t work for a lot of 1.0’s (“She can’t fuck other guys!!!!!”) but your point is a good one, yes.

    I can feel after your teaching, alpha 1.0 may seem masculine from outside because he constantly tries to correct a woman when things don’t go on his wishes. But alpha 2.0 is using sub communication (ie soft nexting her, don’t say anything in these few days, and then only come back find her, ”hope” she gets the message.)

    Correct. (And you don’t have to “hope” she gets the right message. She will. Women are very intuitive.)

    When she gives u silent treatment, you give her the same thing. And it drives her crazy.

    Not in that instant, but eventually, yes.

    Non verbal communication is the best thing to communicate with any woman.
    Not verbal, when a man often uses verbal clarification to convince a woman, he’s not doing a job.

    Generally speaking, yes, though as has been pointed out in this thread (and in my article), there are exceptions to that rule. Your overall frame should be one of subcommunication, with verbalization only when required. Most men do it the other way around, which doesn’t work if you want to be happy.

    BD am I right in pairing Outcome Independence with high emotional intelligence? Would they be cousins?

    I don’t think I’m qualified to answer that question. My guess is yes.

    I suppose that an Alpha 1.0 would lead by “being in command”, whereas an Alpha 2.0 leads by “guiding” her. And he does this by HIS ACTIONS in RESPONSE to HER BEHAVIOR (i.e. soft nexting) which is non-verbal.

    Correct, at least in a sense. However, the true 2.0 doesn’t actually care if she goes along with his program or not. He knows he can replace her at any time, and already has other women in his life.

    The 1.0 does care. So we’re not just talking about a set of actions, but also an overall attitude.

    As a beginner, I find it especially hard to rely on subcommunication only to lead/guide women, I guess it sometimes comes off as if I am not a good leader (and therefor not a good man) because I just can’t verbalize it. (I am very capable of leading the alpha 1.0 way, though it does not make me happy)

    STOP TRYING TO LEAD. JUST SPEND TIME WITH THE WOMEN YOU LIKE, AND DON’T SPEND TIME WITH THE WOMEN YOU DON’T.

    The result ends up being the same, only with a lot less work and bullshit.

    Is there a way to guide/lead VERBALLY without loosing one’s Outcome Independence?

    Verbally lead, no.

    Verbally state preferences, yes.

    Women will get bitchy or will give you a shit test from time to time – How do you react to those moments?

    I don’t fall for the shit test.

    Her: “I don’t like it when you do X.”

    Me: “I do that all the time, so if you hate that you should probably go be with someone else.”

    What do you do to go through those tests?

    1. I pass the shit test, as above.

    2. If she then gives me drama, I soft next her.

  22. Is OI twins with indifference?

    and

    However, how does one distinguish between OI and indifference? It appears to be the same, but indifference has this slightly negative subtone (at least in my understanding), in a sense that it leads to resentment. (?)

    OI and indifference are very similar, yes. The difference is slight, but there is a difference.

    OI means you don’t care at all about the results of this moment, but you do care, strongly, about the big picture.

    Indifference means you don’t care at all, big picture or little picture.

    For example, a man is dating a MLTR, and one evening, while at her home, she starts yelling at him.

    The OI guy shrugs, doesn’t care, gets up, and leaves, initiating a soft next. The next day he has sex with another one of his women.

    The indifferent guy shrugs, doesn’t care, and sits on her couch, not really responding, but taking her verbal abuse for 40 minutes.

    They’re both indifferent, but the OI guy’s overall, big picture goal, that he does care about, is zero or low drama. The indifferent guy has no big picture goals.

    That’s the difference.

  23. Being “outcome independent” isn’t easy for me to digest

    As soon as you’re able to digest it, you’ll be much happier.

    I’d add that I like to give POSITIVE feedback, immediately, when she does something I like.  Anything via text that is compliance related or feminine or cute or… I immediately call it out, and say I like it… because I want more of it.

    Very good point. Yes, men should do this. I don’t do this as often as I should.

  24. Women will get bitchy or will give you a shit test from time to time – How do you react to those moments?

    I don’t fall for the shit test.

    Her: “I don’t like it when you do X.”

    Me: “I do that all the time, so if you hate that you should probably go be with someone else.”

    I usually have the habbit of thinking my way of doing things is the best therefore I oft try to explain to people why they should do X also and/or why me doing X is good for them. This often results in the women getting really annoyed to the point that is hilarious for me, because they usually dont know what to say to me anymore. I dated a woman who was trying to get me to not do polygamy but after explaining why its good for her she got upset even more but stayed and wanted to have sex even more than before, so funny.

  25. I find it especially hard to rely on subcommunication only to lead/guide women

    The whole “subcommunications” thing is not as alpha as the PUA scammers would have you believe. It is very outcome dependent in its design, like you are nonverbally saying “hey look! I’m the big, bad alpha male! Come look at how cool and tough I am!”

    A dude I know does that, he’s about BD’s age, and its quite pathetic. He crowds chicks and gets uncomfortably close to them, he’ll brush shoulders with guys, its pretty unsettling to see.

    You don’t need to act like a 21 year old frat kid in order to have confidence or Outcome Independence. You simply need fundamentals of approaching people and inviting them places, and to be aware of the pressure you place on others when you act outcome dependent. That alone should make acting outcome independent much easier.

    Acting “tough” isn’t alpha. Outcome dependence is.

  26. I’d like to give a recent example of how powerful OI can be when we talk about women.

    This wednesday I hurt my left foot while training and was grounded for 5 days. I’m actively dating 6 girls (various FBs, 3 fixed and 2 who come and go, plus 1 MLTR).

    I treat my FBs all the same (meet one day a week, no dates, only sex and fun, soft nexts if any drama arises). My MLTR is with me for more than a year now so she knows the drill. She is very indepent too.

    Once they’ve heard I was hurt, all of them offered to take care of me in some degree – some FBs even wanted to come over and cook my meals, clean the house, etc. And I NEVER EVER tell them to do shit. They know they’re free to come and go as they please.

    Being chill with chicks pays HUGE DIVIDENDS (even beyond your sex life).

  27. Once they’ve heard I was hurt, all of them offered to take care of me in some degree – some FBs even wanted to come over and cook my meals, clean the house, etc. And I NEVER EVER tell them to do shit. They know they’re free to come and go as they please.

    Sounds nice but it could also be an attempt to subdue you to commit more to them. Either way it sounds interesting.

  28. Sounds nice but it could also be an attempt to subdue you to commit more to them. Either way it sounds interesting.

    Yes. You need to stay in charge though. Some women will take any sort of “yes” to their suggestion as virtually an invitation to move in with you … Similarly you mustn’t allow it to alter the nature of the relationship in the long term (unless you want it to).

  29. Steak, chicken, and eggs (which is pretty much all I ever eat) are bad for you according to one expert on one day, and good for you according to another expert on another day. Some experts say that processed stuff is negligible as long as you are active, some say that processed stuff is poison no matter how active you are. Some experts say you need to lift weights every day. Some experts say that lifting weights will destroy your joints so just run a lot and do core exercises. Some experts say you should drink half a gallon of water a day. Some others say you should drink a gallon. Some others say you should drink 2 gallons. And so on and so on.

    When you adopt hyper-reductionist thinking and try to force all your decisions into either a “bad” or “good” pile, naturally you will start stressing because that’s not how the world works. If you instead train your critical thinking skills to be able to evaluate the claims made by “experts” (including an evaluation of whether or not they actually are experts) most of these issues go away. For example:

    -No expert says that steak, chicken, and eggs have zero detrimental effects on your health. That’s because they all have saturated fat and cholesterol which increase the risk of heart disease. In addition, there is consensus on the fact that diets high in meat also contribute to risk of diabetes and cancer. However does that mean they are “bad for you?” No, because these foods all provide some health benefits in addition to their negative effects. The question is just a matter of weighing risks vs. benefits. If you eat nothing but meat, you’re probably risking your health in the long term. But will a couple of steaks a week kill you? No, and they may even supplement the rest of your diet.

    -No expert says that you need to “lift weights every day” and if they do, they are probably lying and selling you some bullshit. Anyone with even rudimentary experience in exercise physiology agrees that evidence shows recovery is important.

    -No expert says that lifting weights will “destroy your joints.” Even the most endurance heavy trainers (people who train marathoners, etc) still incorporate weightlifting in their programs.

    -No expert says that processed food is “negligible.” There is consensus that processed food leads to higher risk of diabetes, cancer, etc. However, those claiming the existence of actual “poison” in regular ass food are generally selling you some overpriced ‘holistic health’ crap.

    -No expert says that you need to drink some prescribed amount of water a day. However, all experts agree that hydration is important for pretty much all bodily function.

    The solution isn’t to stop listening to experts altogether, because that’s how you end up with retarded shit like anti-vaxxers. Instead, learn how to read and evaluate scientific studies and pay attention to the patterns of disinformation used by people with an agenda (hint: they’re probably trying to sell you some bullshit).

     

  30. Sounds nice but it could also be an attempt to subdue you to commit more to them. 

    True story. They’ll remember, and then they’ll throw it in your face and then give you drama if you don’t do 2 more favors for the 1 favor they did for you.

    Never trust anyone who does you a favor without you asking. In many cases, it is manipulative behavior (especially when performed by someone who is outcome dependent).

    The solution isn’t to stop listening to experts altogether, because that’s how you end up with retarded shit like anti-vaxxers. Instead, learn how to read and evaluate scientific studies and pay attention to the patterns of disinformation used by people with an agenda (hint: they’re probably trying to sell you some bullshit).

    That’s pretty much what I was saying. I just check for inconsistencies and look for what is generally agreed on. Sorry if that got muddled.

    The Anti-Vaxxers do have some arguable claims, vaccines do have some nasty side effects and we’ve been ignoring them for centuries.

    And pretty much EVERYONE is trying to sell you something. BD straight up tells his readers this lol.

  31. What is a good alpha / outcome independent response when the girl says she thinks second date is not a good idea or that she didnt feel the click in her messages afterwards?

    Would you move on immediately, or is there some good response that has a decent chance to make her go for it anyway – since at this point there is nothing to lose?

  32. Thanks for the post. What are your views on finances in a serious relationship? If you are the provider, are you bossy about money? More articles on finances in relationships would be nice, nobody wants to end up like Boris Becker haha

  33. Never trust anyone who does you a favor without you asking. In many cases, it is manipulative behavior (especially when performed by someone who is outcome dependent).

    Dude, that’s exactly the kind of attitude that makes genuine, un-manipulative favors rarer and rarer because it means they not only stay unrewarded but are punished even. You seem to keep forgetting that disinterested altruism does exist even though the reason it evolved in humans was that indeed, our ancestors gained an advantage from it through reciprocity.  In other words, it’s evo bio manipulating sincere altruists into doing favors because they statistically tend to yield profit long term, not the altruist himself who is being deliberately manipulative. Of course manipulators exist too and they are legion, but see my first sentence.

    Protecting yourself against manipulation isn’t the same as systematically assuming the worst (but Petyr Baelish would be proud, admittedly).

  34. There’s also the other side where I like a woman to be OI too, but often they are actually indifferent.

     

  35. What is a good alpha / outcome independent response when the girl says she thinks second date is not a good idea or that she didnt feel the click in her messages afterwards?

    “Okay! I wish you all the best!”

    Would you move on immediately, or is there some good response that has a decent chance to make her go for it anyway – since at this point there is nothing to lose?

    If you’ve already asked pitched the second date, it’s over, move on. If you haven’t yet pitched a second date, do so. If she says no, move on. And no, at that point, you can’t do anything to “change a woman’s mind.” Either she’s attracted to you and making minor excuses or she really doesn’t want to see you again (usually the second).

    What are your views on finances in a serious relationship?

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2015/01/11/when-to-spend-money-on-women-in-a-relationship/

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2016/05/05/the-alpha-provider/

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2011/05/24/stay-at-home-moms/

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2011/08/06/when-she-asks-to-borrow-money/

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2016/10/27/spending-money-women-can-afford/

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2013/11/14/who-pays/

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2011/02/23/womens-most-common-complaints-about-men/

    If you are the provider, are you bossy about money?

    I’m never bossy about anything. I’m Alpha 2.0.

    If I’m the 100% provider and she has literally no income, then I’m in charge of the money. But that doesn’t mean I’m bossy. She agrees to that arrangement or she leaves; her choice.

    More articles on finances in relationships would be nice

    I’ve done many (see above) and I will do many more.

     

  36. If you’ve already asked pitched the second date, it’s over, move on. If you haven’t yet pitched a second date, do so. If she says no, move on. And no, at that point, you can’t do anything to “change a woman’s mind.” Either she’s attracted to you and making minor excuses or she really doesn’t want to see you again (usually the second).

    Okay, makes sense. If the girls seem interested and happy during the date but then half of them (usually the better looking half) flakes on a second date like this (usually they say something like they decided second date isnt a good idea but she didnt feel the connection that much), then is it something I was doing wrong, or is this normal? (I still get about 1/3 to 1/2 of my dates showing up at a second date which is at my place). And what can I do to find out what I am doing wrong? I tried asking a few of them and they said there was nothing wrong and they really liked it with me but just didnt feel the click.

  37. What is a good alpha / outcome independent response when the girl says she thinks second date is not a good idea or that she didnt feel the click in her messages afterwards?
    Would you move on immediately?

    None. No response. And yeah I would move on immediately. In most cases, you should move on probably during the 1st date if the chick is doing provider hunter stuff, which should be easy to snuff out.

    Protecting yourself against manipulation isn’t the same as systematically assuming the worst

    I agree, being paranoid is never a good thing. But then again, questioning the intentions of those around you =/= paranoia.

  38. move on probably during the 1st date if the chick is doing provider hunter stuff, which should be easy to snuff out.

    What are the signs?

  39. If you are the provider,

    No one should be providing for another adult.

    She has two legs, two hands, and a brain. Giving in to female parasitism is shameful and beta. Tell her to get off her ass and get a job!

     

  40. Okay, makes sense. If the girls seem interested and happy during the date but then half of them (usually the better looking half) flakes on a second date like this (usually they say something like they decided second date isnt a good idea but she didnt feel the connection that much), then is it something I was doing wrong, or is this normal?

    If 50% of all of your first dates are telling you they don’t like you (don’t click or whatever) and don’t want to see you again, then yes, you’re likely doing something wrong, unless they’re all over age 33, in which case you’re probably doing fine.

  41. unless they’re all over age 33

    They are not but for some reason most of the women I meet are either super inexperienced or strictly full relationships even though they are mid 20s. Not sure what I do to specifically attract these types but most of the ones I get dates with are these ones. I am going to change my photos to something much more dominating and see if that changes things. Another thing is that these days I have much more dates than ever before and its starting be boring for me as to be honest most women arent that interesting to talk to so maybe I am letting my boredom show. Of course another thing is I am not doing sex talk, but I am slowly trying to learn to make the discussions in those directions, but this part isnt easy for me.

  42. If the girls seem interested and happy during the date but then half of them (usually the better looking half) flakes on a second date like this (usually they say something like they decided second date isnt a good idea but she didnt feel the connection that much), then is it something I was doing wrong, or is this normal?

    Probably you provide too much comfort and not enough attraction, or your poly/player frame is too strong that scares them off

  43. Probably you provide too much comfort and not enough attraction, or your poly/player frame is too strong that scares them off

    What would you suggest to do to get different results?

  44. This is foundational.

    Until someone understands Outcome Independence is Ground Hog Day plus “I’ll be back”, a single event will over focus attention at the expense of long term happiness.

    Thank you for posting.

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