When talking about dating and relationship techniques, I will sometimes refer to those who are “beginners,” those who are at an “intermediate” level of skill, and those who are “advanced.”

I’ve received some questions about this, and about how I’ve never clarified what these terms actually mean. It’s only fair that if I use these terms, I should be more specific about their definitions.

Below are these three levels of mastery and what they mean, at least to me. To be clear, what constitutes these three levels is strictly my opinion. I’m sure other dating experts / PUA gurus will have definitions for these three terms that may look different from mine, and that’s fine. I’m just here to tell you what these three terms mean to me when I happen to use them in my writings.

The Beginner

The beginner is obviously the guy who is just starting out. At one extreme, you’ve got guys who are literally virgins and who are terrified of talking to women. One notch above these guys are extroverted virgins who’ve never had sex, but have lots of female friends and have never learned how to get out of friend zone.

At the other end of the spectrum, you’ve got beginners who’ve had sex with a few women, perhaps five or six, or maybe even ten if they’re older, but have no actual skill enabling them to go out into the world and pull new women into their sex life with any predictable reliability. The only sex they’ve received thus far in their life is the sex that dropped into their laps through women they met organically at their work, through family, school, or their social circles.

Many beginners have reached the point where they can meet girls and get first dates or day2 meets (through night game, daygame, or online dating), but they don’t yet have the balls and/or the skill to close the deal with any predictability. If they do get laid, and usually they don’t, it’s almost by accident, in that they happen to be exactly the woman’s type to begin with and didn’t screw it up too badly.

Most beginners tend to come in two flavors; young guys who haven’t had a lot of woman experience yet, and older guys who are just out of a long-term relationship or divorce, and who are very out of practice.

You are a beginner if some of the following conditions describe you:

  • You’ve had sex with well below ten women in your entire life.
  • You haven’t yet gotten to the point where you can meet women cold (either in real life or online) and actually turn that into real-life sex with any reliability or predictability.
  • The only way you know how to get laid for sure is by paying for it and you’re under the age of 50.
  • You would not rate most of the women you’ve had sex with as attractive.

The way to get from beginner to intermediate is to start with a dating system (if you have not done so already) and stick with it, devoting at least three evenings a week, every week, to getting better at your chosen system (night game, daygame, or online dating). If you have no idea where to start, read this article right now. If you’ve chosen online dating as your system, get this book. If your system involves one-on-one dates / meetups, get this book.

The number one thing a beginner must do is stick with it. Being a beginner is hard and painful. I was beginner for many months, messaging women, going out on dates, dealing with cancels and flakes, dealing with women ghosting me, getting turned down, and wasting a lot of time and money. Being a beginner is the worst stage of these three stages, so you want to put in as much work as possible to get through this stage as fast as possible.

(Interesting side note: many PUA haters and angry MGTOW’s are actually men who reached the beginner stage, but never stuck with any system long enough to achieve results, and have resided in the beginner stage for years and years. Well, yeah, if I had to remain at the beginner stage for years on end, I’d be furious too.) The goal of the beginner is to not be a beginner anymore.

The Intermediate

The intermediate guy is someone who has been working his system for several months and is now getting results. His results are spotty and time consuming, and he does a lot of things wrong. Yet, he does get laid at least semi-regularly with new women. Unlike the beginner, the intermediate knows that if he puts in X amount of action, he will get laid with someone. This is because he can look back over the last several weeks or months and see some results.

The women he has sex with range from low-average to the occasional hottie. Most intermediate guys get whatever they can take. They are also hugely susceptible to oneitis when they have sex with a really hot woman, as I discussed in item #9 here.

Being at the intermediate level is pretty exciting, at least most of the time. For the first time in your life, you’re actually having sex with multiple women, and many of them are actually pretty cute or hot. Intermediate guys are usually very excited and enthusiastic; it’s almost the opposite of being a beginner.

On the flip side, intermediate guys often get easily frustrated. Putting in the numbers starts to get to them, and when women don’t play ball the way the men expect, these men often get upset.

You are an intermediate if some of the following conditions describe you:

  • You’ve had sex with several women (at least 3-6 or so) whom you’ve met completely cold (i.e. from real life cold approaches or from online dating; women you did not know beforehand via friends, family, work, or school).
  • Some women you’ve had sex with, you consider really cute or hot.
  • You have some kind of track record, in that you know for a fact that if you put in X amount of activity (approaches, openers, dates, whatever), you will get laid with at least one new woman (regardless of her attractiveness). It’s not a total unknown like when you were a beginner.
  • You’re at least somewhat pleased with what you’ve accomplished with women so far, but you want a lot more.

While the goal of the beginner is to stick with it, the primary goal of the intermediate is to identify what you’re doing wrong and stop doing it. The intermediate level is when you need to closely examine your system and your game and find the problems with it. Intermediates have a list of both successes and failures, and it’s your job to analyze your failures and determine why they keep happening. This is particularly true if you’re encountering the same problems over and over again.

The challenge is either with what you’re doing, the type of women you’re approaching, or both. I’ll give you two examples from when I was an intermediate.

Many years ago, PUA dogma preached on and on about the “makeout.” It wasn’t sex that was the goal, no – it was the makeout. The entire goal was to walk into a club and make out with a girl. Then you were a badass. PUA’s on the PUA forums would harp on this constantly. Mystery himself said “Mastery is four sets, four makeouts.”

Being an intermediate guy myself at the time and not knowing any better, I said, “Okay, I’d better start making out with women on first dates! Then I’ll get laid more!” So on my online first dates, I started making out with every woman I met, right on the first date, with rare exception. I already had a lot of confidence back then and at least an average level of game, so I made out with (or just kissed on the lips) something like 25 women on first dates in a row.

Annnnnnd my lay ratios were terrible. I don’t remember what they were exactly, but they were bad. I got a lot of makeouts, but I wasn’t getting laid. In examining my system, I found that perhaps making out with a woman on an online first date wasn’t a good idea, so I tested not kissing a woman at all on a first date, and instead saving that for the second date where I intended to have sex.

I did that, and holy shit… I got laid. A lot. My lay ratios tripled in less than two months (I think that’s the number; it was a long time ago now).

It was also during this time that I found some women would have an extreme amount of ASD on the second date when I tried to have sex with them, even though they were clearly attracted to me. I only had this problem with some women; other women had sex with me on the second date with no problem at all.

Reviewing my spreadsheets at the time, I was shocked to see that something like 95% of these ASD women were age 33 or over. I couldn’t believe it. Could something as simple as age make that big of a difference? I didn’t know, so I experimented again. I stopped messaging all women online who are age 33 or above, and holy shit, my lay ratios skyrocketed. By only focusing on women age 32 or below, I was getting laid on second dates left and right. I was so excited I couldn’t believe it.

Those are two examples of exactly what you need to do as an intermediate guy. Look at your problems, examine them closely, and experiment with new approaches and solutions. Only that way can you get to the advanced level.

The Advanced

When you’re at the advanced level, you’re pretty much “done” with learning how to get laid. Men at the advanced level can get laid pretty much whenever they want, reasonably fast, without paying for it, and with women they consider hot. There’s no guesswork to the process at all and the effort is minimal.

As strange as it may be to hear, many men at the advanced level actually get pretty bored. This is particularly true of Thrill of the Hunt guys who reach the advanced level. The hunt isn’t hard anymore, so they get bored, and in some cases, even a little depressed. This is why, sadly, most guys at the advanced level eventually become serial monogamists. They have a sad, “What else is there?” attitude and see monogamy as their only answer. (Cheating, drama, breakups, and divorces always ensue, of course.)

New guys at the advanced level are very different. Many of these guys get a little drunk on the power and start to develop a “habit” of having sex with new women all the time simply because it’s what they’ve become accustomed to. They constantly bang new chicks just to bang chicks, not because they actually have any reason to. For these men, having sex with new women becomes a habit instead of a means to an end. (I actually started doing this myself many years ago until I caught myself doing it and backed off.)

You are advanced if both of the following conditions describe you:

  • You can get laid pretty much whenever you want, with relative ease, with women you find attractive, without having to pay for it. (Exceptions are older guys, over age 50 or 60, who have had sex with lots of younger women when they were younger, but now have to pay for it because of their age.)
  • You’ve had sex with a large number of women, and at least a significant percentage of these women you consider hot.

The goal of the advanced guy is to determine a very specific long-term woman goal, stick with it, and only have sex with just enough women to meet this goal while you focus on your non-woman goals and Mission. Men at the advanced level who fail to do this (and sadly, this is most of them) meander around with either banging chicks for the rest of their lives or farting around with the ridiculous up’s and down’s of serial monogamy. Neither of these things will make a man happy in the long-term, as I’ve talked about in great detail before.

You also have to make sure your long-term woman goal is age appropriate. Getting married is not a good idea if you reach the advanced level at age 25, nor is a goal of having sex with 200 18 year-olds if you hit the advanced level when you’re 53 (at least in my opinion.) As always, it’s your life and your goal can be whatever you want of course; just make sure it makes sense in the context of your age and the rest of your life. Remember that long-term consistent happiness is the goal here, not pleasing your ego or your Societal Programming.

I reached the advanced level somewhere around early 2010 (I think), which means I’ve been at this level for about seven years now. Back then, I was entering my 40’s, so around 2011, I started formulating my long-term woman goal, that of an OLTR Marriage. This way, I could settle down and pair-bond with someone, back off on the crazy sexcapades, and focus on my Mission, but do so without all the horrible disadvantages of monogamy and the risk of turning into a pussy beta if the monogamy actually worked.

I’ve stuck with that goal for all these years and now, never wavered on it, it’s in the process of coming to fruition with Pink Firefly. Because I clearly defined a good goal and stuck with it, unlike the vast majority of other men in the PUA / manosphere who are at the advanced level, at no time in the last ten years have I been burned in any way by either monogamy or loneliness, It’s pretty nice.

So those are the three levels of dating or “pickup” mastery. One could argue that there is a separate three levels of nonmonogamous relationship mastery as well; perhaps I’ll cover those in a future article here.

45 Comments on “The 3 Levels of Dating Mastery

  1. Hey BD,

    Are you beyond beginner level in terms of Daygame or Social Circle Game?

    And speaking of other types of game, how effective is online dating in Latin America (especially Argentina and Chile), considering that some poorer countries lack decent internet speed/ access?

    Do you feel that other modes of game would be needed due to the lack of internet?

    And when is your “A Dragon in (City)” report for Argentina and Chile coming out? I love those articles and would really appreciate more of them.

  2. BD, isn’t there something like God-level Mastery?

    Only if you’re me.

    Are you beyond beginner level in terms of Daygame or Social Circle Game?

    Social circle game, definitely. I consider myself high-intermediate there.

    Daygame, I really don’t know. I’m out of practice and haven’t done it in a long time, but I have a hard time believing that if I tried it I wouldn’t get laid at all, so I have no definite answer for that.

    And speaking of other types of game, how effective is online dating in Latin America (especially Argentina and Chile), considering that some poorer countries lack decent internet speed/ access?

    Huh? Buenos Aires and Santiago are not third-world cities. I’ve had many guys tell me online dating works in South America just fine.

    Do you feel that other modes of game would be needed due to the lack of internet?

    No. It’s not like Africa dude.

    And when is your “A Dragon in (City)” report for Argentina and Chile coming out? I love those articles and would really appreciate more of them.

    Next year! Gotta go to Dubai first.

  3. BD,

    Good article.  Based on your definitions, I am definitely in the intermediate zone.  Been single for about 19 months or so after being in two marriages for most of my adult life.  I’m 46 and have banged 11 different women over the last year and a half.  I’ve been having alot of fun.  Some of them I have met through social circles, and some through online dating.  However, I’m not having much success in getting dates with the under 33 crowd.  I simply just don’t get alot of matches with younger women online.

    I know it’s not because of my looks (I am in very good shape for a 46 year old dude).  I guess I will just have to analyze my profiles a little better and improve the look of them in order to start landing dates with the younger women you speak of.  Anyway, good article.  Any advice from other guys on here is welcome.

  4. Spot on about the key for a begginner. Consistency, consistency, consistency. I’ve know about game for 2 years. Started actually approaching for 1 year now, but I never was consistent.

    However, now i’ m committed to getting good at daygame. BD how long do you recommend a beginner game for each evening of practice?(ex:1 hour each day, 5 approaches a day, etc.)

  5. You can get laid pretty much whenever you want, with relative ease, with women you find attractive, without having to pay for it. (Exceptions are older guys, over age 50 or 60, who have had sex with lots of younger women when they were younger, but now have to pay for it because of their age.)

    You’ve had sex with a large number of women, and at least a significant percentage of these women you consider hot.

    The goal of the advanced guy is to determine a very specific long-term woman goal, stick with it, and only have sex with just enough women to meet this goal while you focus on your non-woman goals and Mission. Men at the advanced level who fail to do this (and sadly, this is most of them) meander around with either banging chicks for the rest of their lives or farting around with the ridiculous up’s and down’s of serial monogamy. Neither of these things will make a man happy in the long-term, as I’ve talked about in great detail before.”

    ^ interesting sounds like me, don’t know about the happy or unhappy but it does take away, time from your mission(so maybe the take away from mission could be a bit of a form of unhappiness)… The thing is i get pretty bored of the same girls as well after a while or as they stay around they start hinting relationship progress which brings annoyance… (may post this in the forum to generate a discussion, would be a good topic to discuss)

  6. I’ve been with a few women and I used to have a lot of female friends.  I don’t have trouble getting sex, but I don’t have a lot of desire for my one and only partner.  At this point, she doesn’t have to be my only partner, but she is the only partner I have.

    I never got to that point where I saw results, and I could only keep up the work for so long without positive reinforcement.

    I started when I was 40.  When I turned 45, I bought a new Fleshlight.  I still read this blog to torture myself, I guess.

  7. However, I’m not having much success in getting dates with the under 33 crowd.  I simply just don’t get alot of matches with younger women online.

    Older man game isn’t about matches. It’s about maximizing your photos and then sending a massive amount of openers, while expecting a very low response rate (1-5%), and drawing enough first dates from that, which works because your dates-to-sex ratios will be very high (since VYW have near zero ASD and they’ll likely be Type 2‘s.).

    BD how long do you recommend a beginner game for each evening of practice?(ex:1 hour each day, 5 approaches a day, etc.)

    I can’t give you specifics on daygame since I don’t feel qualified to give them. Speaking in general, a beginner should focus on improving his game a minimum of three nights a week, several hours a go. When I was in the heat of beginner, I was sending out bulk openers 2-3 times a week, sometimes more, and going out on first / second / third dates at least three nights a week, sometimes more.

    Beginners need to hit it hard.

    don’t know about the happy or unhappy but it does take away, time from your mission(so maybe the take away from mission could be a bit of a form of unhappiness)

    Failure to spend regular time on your Mission creates future unhappiness, at a minimum.

    The thing is i get pretty bored of the same girls

    Then you’re more of a Thrill of the Hunt guy, and that’s something you’ll have to learn how to manage long-term in your life, the same way I had to learn how to manage my high sex drive.

    or as they stay around they start hinting relationship progress which brings annoyance

    I don’t categorize hints as drama so when women do that it’s fine with me. Eventually they LSNFTE and then come back, so I don’t really care. A strong nonmonogamous, non-boyfriendish frame also prevents at least 70% of this.

    I’ve been with a few women and I used to have a lot of female friends.  I don’t have trouble getting sex, but I don’t have a lot of desire for my one and only partner.  At this point, she doesn’t have to be my only partner, but she is the only partner I have.

    I never got to that point where I saw results, and I could only keep up the work for so long without positive reinforcement.

    I started when I was 40.  When I turned 45, I bought a new Fleshlight.  I still read this blog to torture myself, I guess.

    Dude. You need to get some balls make a change. Now. This is not the path to masculine happiness.

  8. Blackdragon, it would be interesting if you gave a rough average of how much time per week your women life took you in the beginner stage, intermediate stage, new advanced level banging new women all the time out of habit, advanced level with FBs and MLTRs, and advanced level with OLTR and FBs.

    If you can give a total amount of time, with also a rough breakdown of ‘online+sms+phone learning+pickup+relationship management time’, ‘face pickup+relationship management time and/or driving+waiting time’, ‘sex time’, rough estimates of course.

    I am probably towards the end of the newly advanced, where I feel a bit bored and also feel like I want to back down the habit of fucking new women all the time, which isn’t always possible with a nomadic lifestyle.

    I alternate times when I am mostly focused on my women life to bring new women when I arrive in a new location, with times when I almost only meet the women I know and have sex. In average is I spend 6 months in a new location I would say that I probably spend arround 20 hours per week:

    online+phone: about 4 hours
    face time (no sex): about 8 hours plus 10 additional hours if I decide to do a full day trip or activity with an MLTR
    sex time: about 8 hours

    That’s for MLTRs + FBs

    This is awake time only. I didn’t count the time when I am sleeping in the presence of an MLTR. That would probably add around 18 hours sleeping time per week in average.

    But the first 3 weeks (blitz) are more like:
    online+phone: about 20 hours
    face time (no sex): about 14 hours
    sex time: about 4 hours (from 0h the first days to about 12h in the 3rd week)

    Now I am trying the OLTR+FBs (FBs sex frequency is 1 to 2 times per month).

    online+phone: about 1 hour

    face time (no sex): I work entirely online from home and OLTR is almost all the time arround during her college holidays, so that’s about 80h per week. When she is going to college, that’s about 40h per week. And FBs: 15min to 30min (I count 3hours total time spend in physical presence of FB each time we meet 1/3 of which is asexual and+or transport and/or waiting)

    sex time: about 8 hours including about 30min to 1h with FB (I count (I count 3hours total time spend in physical presence of FB each time we meet 1/3 of which is sexual)

  9. Blackdragon, it would be interesting if you gave a rough average of how much time per week your women life took you in the beginner stage, intermediate stage, new advanced level banging new women all the time out of habit, advanced level with FBs and MLTRs, and advanced level with OLTR and FBs.

    If you can give a total amount of time, with also a rough breakdown of ‘online+sms+phone learning+pickup+relationship management time’, ‘face pickup+relationship management time and/or driving+waiting time’, ‘sex time’, rough estimates of course.

    I can’t give you that level of specifics, even as rough estimates. I can tell you that during both the beginner and intermediate states I was spending around 10-15 hours per week (on average) in total sarging time. This did not count time I was already spending with FB‘s and MLTR‘s, which ranged anywhere from 5-8 hours per week to perhaps 10-20 hours per week when I was really going crazy (2009ish or so). However there were many times a MLTR was over at my house but I was doing other things (like working) so it wasn’t complete “woman” time.

    When I hit the advanced stage (even high intermediate) I dropped the amount of times per year I did online blitzes and first/second dates as I got better maintaining longer relationships and managing returning LSNFTE‘s. During beginner/intermediate, I did blitzes year-round, pretty much all the time. Then I dropped them down to 3 per year, then 2 per year, then 1, then 1 every 1.5 years, etc. So in the typical week as an advanced guy I was spending zero time on sarging, just enjoying my FB‘s and MLTR‘s, which was the entire point of sarging for me (to not have to do it all the time).

    From 2010 to about 2013 my average over several years of “relationship time,” i.e. time spent with FB‘s and MLTR‘s was around 12-18 hours a week. In 2013 I dropped that to about 8-12 hours per week, and kept it like that until I made Pink Firefly an OLTR, which was last summer. Since then I usually spend most (though not all) the weekend with her plus see her once more during the week, our schedules permitting (and sometimes they don’t permit; her and I both have very full lives). I spend very little time with FB‘s; it’s a in-and-out sort of thing (and always has with my FB‘s; MLTR‘s take more time; the nice thing about FB‘s is that they take very little time).

  10. Thanks for the thorough answer BD. That’s already clear 🙂

    Correction in my last paragraph:
    sex time: about 8 hours including about 30min to 1h with FB (I count 3 hours total time spend in physical presence of FB each time we meet 2/3 of which is sexual)

    Also as a precision, when I do the blitz, I usually have sex with 4 to 15 new women (depending which country I am in), in 2 months (most the 3 first weeks). Then I cruise with 3 – 5 women (MLTR+FBs), keeping adding new women from time to time to improve quality and or replace some LNFSTE or soft nexts.

  11. Can you expand on why you think you shouldn’t focus on VYW if you’re in your 50s? What would you say is the oldest you can reasonably do that?

  12. Can you expand on why you think you shouldn’t focus on VYW if you’re in your 50s?

    Where did I ever say that?

  13. Where did I ever say that?

    Hmm, I made an assumption (wrong in hindsight) based on what you said about banging 200 18-year-olds if you reach advanced at 53. I guess I just wonder what you mean by “age-appropriate,” since that concept is loaded with societal programming.

  14. Great post, I love ranking systems, it clearly shows where you are at, how to break through and what to expect.

    Really looking forward of non-monogamous levels AND Alpha 2.0 levels (we are discussing it on the forum and would be great if you can provide some opinions on that).

  15. @Black dragon I’m guessing a man who is on the higher scale of attractiveness would level up faster from beginner > intermediate > master? assuming this would be because of higher response rates and more dates therefore more interaction to where it would lead to sex faster. However only if the work was put in (numbers game) and adopts a 2.0 alpha mentality.

  16. many PUA haters and angry MGTOW’s are actually men who reached the beginner stage, but never stuck with any system long enough to achieve results, and have resided in the beginner stage for years and years.

    They actually stick with a system, but said system are usually scams like this:

    Many years ago, PUA dogma preached on and on about the “makeout.” It wasn’t sex that was the goal, no – it was the makeout. The entire goal was to walk into a club and make out with a girl. Then you were a badass. PUA’s on the PUA forums would harp on this constantly. Mystery himself said “Mastery is four sets, four makeouts.”

    RSD still preaches this stuff and PUA message boards still talk about this constantly to this day.

    So the angry MGTOWs, possessing no real knowledge of self (because no collectivist truly possesses knowledge of self), foolishly follow this, go for the most attractive chicks they can find, and because they have no social value, use weird PUA phrases and “routines,” and look to chicks to make them happy, they get shot down hard. Then they either do what I did and step back, go for chicks who are matched up with them on attractiveness until they improve. Then they get to the intermediate level.

    Or they become angry MGTOW and join collectivist groups like AntiFA or the white nationalists (whichever matches their views), because their self esteem goes from hating chicks to hating invisible barriers to their success.

     

    The women he has sex with range from low-average to the occasional hottie. Most intermediate guys get whatever they can take. They are also hugely susceptible to oneitis when they have sex with a really hot woman.

    Yeah that was me last year. Got with a chick who I considered really attractive and caught feelings like a dummy dumb lol.

  17. Holy Shit. I have been a member of the “Red Pill” movement my entire life (before there was such a term) and have read thousands of blog posts, but this particular post sums it up very well. I am 59 years old and have banged 100’s of women (I stopped counting in 1983 when I hit 200) and I can tell you, there is never an easy path, no matter what stage you are in.

    For the beginners, I would say this. Always keep learning. Invest in yourself and find other men who can be a mentor, which is easier said than done. You are going to be rejected by women. So what? Just accept that is the way things are, but always never forget your value. Additionally, TRAVEL. Go to Asia, go to South America. Do it while you are young and do not have the burden of kids or other things that inhibit you from just getting “as many trips to plate as possible”. The traveling will not only be one of the best ROI’s from a learning experience, but it will also make you a much more interesting man.

    For the intermediate guy, I stayed in this “holding pattern” for quite some time, until I figured out the game. Women will never be totally honest, they will always use their emotions as a compass and many of them do not have a lot to offer than just draining your checking account, time and energy. The faster you can get a directional handle on this, the better. Sure, you will come across the occasional women who “will take your breath away” or that you think, “she is different”. Do not be fooled. Always keep your options open to be able to the one who decides…to be the one who walks away, if needed. There are many blogs posts on how to keep your head on straight and to be in control of your emotions. It is critical for a man to master this at any stage.

    Finally for those who are at the advanced stage. I can sum it up like this, “Been there, done that…I am not going to take any shit”. I found my woman in Tokyo. She is Korean/Japanese (very rare combo, since the two countries, do not like each that much). She is 11 years my junior and in many ways, very traditional. I am only the third man she has been and while she is NOT perfect, she fills me up emotionally. That is a HUGE component of finally find a woman for LTR. Does she put you first, at least most of the time? Does she make your masculine heart feel good when you are with her?

    The analogy would be this. You walk up to an ATM and put in $20 dollars. Did you make an investment? Do you have to keep putting in $20 and get nothing in return? Or…do you put in $20 and get back $50 later? If you can get ANY ROI from a woman (besides sex), that is a win. Otherwise, you a better off being by yourself.

  18. Hmm, I made an assumption (wrong in hindsight) based on what you said about banging 200 18-year-olds if you reach advanced at 53. I guess I just wonder what you mean by “age-appropriate,” since that concept is loaded with societal programming.

    Usually it is, and I agree, but there are indeed some factors that are truly, objectively, biologically, and/or logistically age appropriate, regardless of Societal Programming. Going into the NFL to compete against a bunch of 20-somethings when you are 60 is not age appropriate, regardless of Societal Programming and regardless of how physically fit you are.

    As I showed recently, men over 50 are, because of their age, looking to calm down, settle down, or at least streamline their woman life. They’re not looking to bang 200 teenagers. The exception to this rule would be the 50-something guy who’s just gotten divorced out of a long, horrible marriage, and is ravenous for young pussy. In that case, hell yes, go right ahead and bang 18 year-old’s as much as you like! That’s very important! But, well before you get to 200, I promise you that you’re going to get very tired of it and you’re going to start looking to pair-bond and relax again, eventually. Because of your age.

    That’s what I mean.

    Really looking forward of non-monogamous levels

    Okay; I’ll do it.

    AND Alpha 2.0 levels (we are discussing it on the forum and would be great if you can provide some opinions on that).

    I touched on that topic in regards to living abroad here, but if you guys have a thread going in the forum about this, I’ll post over there.

    I’m guessing a man who is on the higher scale of attractiveness would level up faster from beginner > intermediate > master? assuming this would be because of higher response rates and more dates therefore more interaction to where it would lead to sex faster.

    No. I know way too many guys who are really good looking and who have a lot of trouble getting laid consistently. This is because of factors such as neediness, betaness, fear, self-esteem problems, oneitis, shitting upbringings (usually a single mother mom), and Societal Programming, particularly cultural Societal Programming (like what Indian guys need to deal with).

    As I talked about here, if you take two guys who are equal in every way except one is much better-looking, then yes, the better-looking guy will rise faster. But making a general statement that, as a whole, better-looking men get laid more, or are better at getting laid, is too often untrue in my experience to be an axiom. (Better-looking men with strong game get laid more, but that’s very different than being good looking.)

    RSD still preaches this stuff and PUA message boards still talk about this constantly to this day.

    Not as much as all PUA guys used to. It’s night and day.

    Finally for those who are at the advanced stage. I can sum it up like this, “Been there, done that…I am not going to take any shit”. I found my woman in Tokyo. She is Korean/Japanese (very rare combo, since the two countries, do not like each that much). She is 11 years my junior and in many ways, very traditional. I am only the third man she has been and while she is NOT perfect, she fills me up emotionally. That is a HUGE component of finally find a woman for LTR. Does she put you first, at least most of the time? Does she make your masculine heart feel good when you are with her?

    Wheelock, Wiseone’s above post is exactly what I’m talking about. He’s in his 50’s, and doesn’t want to bang 100’s of teenagers anymore. He wants to settle down, and has, and likes it. Thus my point. (He sounds like he’s monogamous, which I think is going to bite him in the ass later, but that’s a different topic.)

  19. You are spot on in your assertion. Quite frankly, while I hate to admit this, your sex drive does wane as you get into your later years–or it is not as high as a priority.  Even on FULL TRT (testosterone replacement), working out, watching your diet like a hawk (you really do, if you want to keep your body fat in the 10-13% range) you are not going to be wanting to have sex all the time. I went on a “binge” in my late 40’s and early 50’s (maybe 25 to 30 women a year for 10 years) and at the end of the day, the drama, the cash outlay, the effort, the emotional turmoil and the continuous shit tests got really old for just a piece of ass.

    I have good guy friends, but most of them are consumed with family and kids. So, while female companionship is overrated, having someone who accepts you as you are and certainly not try to change you into a Beta, is worth the price of admission at this conjecture. One more thing, I can always hop back into the game, but I would NOT do it in the U.S. Not at all. It is a big world out there and countries like Korea, Thailand, Columbia where the women are more feminine and appreciate an Alpha male, is a better place to go…than having to beg your supper here.

  20. Blackdragon, it would be interesting if you gave a rough average of how much time per week your women life took you in the beginner stage, intermediate stage

    What I really loved about Blackdragon’s lay reports back in the mASF forums was the fact that he wrote total time spent and total money spent. Those are basically the most important factors.

    A BUSINESS IDEA for any of you PUAs here. Do ONLINE GAME and actually save the entire CONVERSATIONS you used to get the date. Make sure to delete/edit private or sensitive information and SELL the conversations. When I was a super beta guy starting out I used to read the conversations of an online dating guru who posted on mASF, and they helped me A LOT in learning how to talk to women online.

    @Black dragon I’m guessing a man who is on the higher scale of attractiveness would level up faster from beginner > intermediate > master? assuming this would be because of higher response rates and more dates therefore more interaction to where it would lead to sex faster. 

    Like Blackdragon said, attractiveness is obviously a factor but not the most important factor. This is because a. You can change and b. Women think (know) they can change you. If you are too fat and she likes your personality she knows she can motivate you to lose weight. If you are too thin she knows she can motivate you to eat more, etc.

    Now I am going to be honest here and tell you something most PUA coachs don’t tell you: The one attractiveness-related aspect that it is out of your control and has a lot of relevance in PUA is your HEIGHT. If you are a very short guy, sorry to say this but you will have a much harder time picking up chicks. Most girls I have known don’t like to hook up with guys shorter than they are.

     

  21. @Blackdragon

    I would appreciate some advice on how to proceed in my current situation (if it’s even possible to start doing any kind of game, before getting the rest of my life fixed to a certain degree.).

    I am a 38 yrs old introvert, working a 9 to 5 job, living with a live-in girlfriend and a 2 years old daughter that we have together. I live in Easter Europe in a city of about half a million.
    Private life – monogamy (sex every couple of weeks as I find no sexual attraction anymore)
    Financial life – employee with income being enough to cover my/our expenses, but really going nowhere to the possibility of a secure future (having just a little left for saving at the end of each month)
    Social life – non existent, with the exception of a few BBQs with other families
    Fitness life – regular trainings in a local gym (the only thing that I really enjoy at the moment)
    Adventures – non existent

    At my age I should have figured things out a long time ago, at least in starting my own business, but I haven’t. I am honestly pretty clueless where to start.
    I’d like to start being my own boss, meet other women and have sex with them, travel the world and have a taste of all that life has to offer to a free man.

     
    I love both of my girls and I have a strong feeling of responsibility towards them, but I am really bored of/hate this way of life.

  22. @Reach:

    1. You have not stated how much debt you have, if any. This is very important. If you have no debt then your situation is actually not bad at all. You also haven’t said which industry you work on. This is also very relevant. Some industries are growing and some aren’t.

    2. The worse part of your situation is the fact that you have little left for savings at the end of the month. In your situation, making more money is more important than meeting new women. If I were you I would make that a priority and worry about game later.

    3. I would recommend two ways to make money:

    a. Try to EARN a salary raise from your boss. This means asking him what his problems are and how you can help fixing them. Keep in mind this will very likely imply you will have to put extra hours in your job (which probably ends up meaning more houskeeping work from you wife). Try to get creative. See if there is a way you can help your company get more clients or whatever.

    The fact that you have a family means moving to another city is probably not an option, if it was I would tell you to look for another job in the same industry if your employer refuses to give you a raise

    b. Start learning some usefull skill on the side (in the afternoons after work). Programming is a skill that is becoming more and more useful. I think there will always be good demand for programmers.

    4. Like and share my facebook page for good karma 😉

    After you improve your income you can start gaming women. An introvert guy like you would probably do better with online game. You could also go to bars firdays and saturdays night and do night game. But in your situation I would really prioritze increasing your income.

  23. I certainly don’t knock using online dating and Tinder, but there don’t seem to be too many guys posting here, who are regularly doing day game and I haven’t for almost 2 years for a couple reasons, but I definitely prefer it to night game. 

    It’s similar to online, in that it’s a total numbers game and you’ll get lots of rejections and blowouts, but it’s harder.  The blowouts and rejections you get from online dating and Tinder are silent, but in day game, you’ll always get to experience them in person. 

    So you need to have very good inner game, good body language and just because women in day game might give their phone number, the large majority will still flake on you, plus you :

    1) actually have to regularly get out of the house and do it and most guys aren’t good and/or confident enough to be able to go out alone.  They’d prefer having a wing and finding reliable ones who are willing to regularly put in the work, can be challenging, as some may see day game as too hard, slow, boring and prefer to only do night game. At least you can do it a lot more than night game.

    2) might find it hard to regularly do it, if you work a full time job, as most here probably do and/or run a business full time.  Most guys aren’t crazy to do it after work, which means having to do it on the weekend, which most guys are probably lazy to do.

    The best guy to learn day game from is Tom Totero, the British day game expert (no I’m not him), who has a couple good products, as he can speak about it more authoritatively than BD can. 

    While TT has a blog, he devotes more time to his excellent podcast that’s on iTunes.  Perhaps he can write a guest blog post on why guys should be regularly doing day game.
     

  24. @BD

    I have similar situation like Reacher.  I’m 42. I would like to enter Alpha 2.0 life as you described in your books and blogs and  become more free, and happy. But I have many barriers to overcome. I have been monogamous past 15 years, no/very little experience with online dating/game, very busy corporate job in West Coast, and have a family with kids that I feel responsibility towards.

    As Walter suggested I started increasing my income at my current industry and thinking about starting my own business(s) on side which probably will take my whole time next few years. I have no idea when I can find time to start blitzes and spend that time (10-20) hours or more you talked about above to upgrade from beginner, or even to start. Top priority seems to have an independent business for being financially free.

    Then after few years hopefully becoming financially independent or close, I will get close to 50. From posts above, it seems too late to start? You mentioned after 50 it may be hard to do without paying, especially with young women, so should I even worry about starting the game?

  25. @Walter. You said:”A BUSINESS IDEA for any of you PUAs here. Do ONLINE GAME and actually save the entire CONVERSATIONS you used to get the date. Make sure to delete/edit private or sensitive information and SELL the conversations. When I was a super beta guy starting out I used to read the conversations of an online dating guru who posted on mASF, and they helped me A LOT in learning how to talk to women online.”When I was a beginner I would have agreed SO MUCH with you. I thought it had to be a long conversation to “build comfort”, so I would stick to ridiculous openers/games. Reading “field reports” and all that with silly conversations about having a dream about her before the date “to get her in a sexual mood”. Damn, so much time wasted.With time I learnt to just stick to a greeting and some reference to an interesting aspect of their profile, which coincided more or less with my reaching intermediate level. Then I read this blog and BD’s tactic of asking out soon was essential in becoming advanced. Turns out if you want to get girls you DON’T HAVE CONVERSATIONS online.

  26. Quite frankly, while I hate to admit this, your sex drive does wane as you get into your later years

    Your sex drive wanes, but not your need for sexual variety.

    I have good guy friends, but most of them are consumed with family and kids. So, while female companionship is overrated, having someone who accepts you as you are and certainly not try to change you into a Beta, is worth the price of admission at this conjecture.

    As long as you’re not expected to be 100% sexually monogamous at all times, I agree.

    I would appreciate some advice on how to proceed in my current situation (if it’s even possible to start doing any kind of game, before getting the rest of my life fixed to a certain degree.).

    Increase your income, start a small business on the side, pay off debt, start saving money, and open up your relationship so you can have sex with other women on the side.

    The best guy to learn day game from is Tom Totero, the British day game expert (no I’m not him), who has a couple good products, as he can speak about it more authoritatively than BD can.

    Tom’s great. I was on his podcast once. Good guy; highly recommend his daygame advice.

    From posts above, it seems too late to start?

    It’s never too late to start, and I would say that even if you were 70. It just harder to start later, so you have more work to do.

    You mentioned after 50 it may be hard to do without paying, especially with young women,

    I said it may be hard. Only after age 60 do I consider it impossible. Please read excuse number 5 here.

    so should I even worry about starting the game?

    That depends on A) your physical appearance and B) how much time you’re willing to put into the woman side of your life. If your appearance is decent and you’re willing to put in the time, then yes, go for it. If you look like absolute shit and are too busy to learn game, then just get my online dating book and follow the chapter on sugar daddy game.

    For both Mark and Reacher, also remember that you can only focus on 1-2 projects or areas of improvement at once. So pick just one thing (maybe two things) and focus on that (women, business, income, fitness, whatever). Then once that one thing is spinning just fine, it the next item. Don’t try to do all of this Alpha 2.0 stuff at once. No one can do that (I certainty couldn’t, and didn’t).

    Then I read this blog and BD’s tactic of asking out soon was essential in becoming advanced. Turns out if you want to get girls you DON’T HAVE CONVERSATIONS online.

    Correct.

  27. When a guy authentically reaches a more advanced level of Game there is not many other people he can talk to about more advanced Game concepts/tactics/strategies, so he has to get used to further using the skill of thinking and acting for himself and to do his own experiments. Most PUA type advice is about Approach Anxiety, Friend Zone, etc, over and over again, so many guys never get past the beginner level. There is very few PUA type guys who are “really” in the advanced level. Between over 80% to around 99% of christians have pre-marital sex (so between around 8 or 9 out of 10 people have non-married sex). It is likely a similar percentage of guys (probably around 8 or 9 out of 10 guys) are in the beginner to middle level. Reaching the advanced level (or above such as the Mastery/Elite/Pro level) in any subject such as Game opens up an Enlightenment where there is a zen-like peaceful calm, the ability to remain relaxed in a peak flow-state, an enjoyment, an overall understanding, and it’s worth getting to and it’s a happy place to be.

  28. Black Dragon will ignoring work after 7 months

    since it ended around December 23rd 2016

    It’s now August 20th 2017

    And she may have decided to seperate as early as September 2016

    I have been trying both things but not one of them consistent tried ignoring for a month maybe a bit longer, and I wasn’t nice and didn’t talk to her to much at times, couldn’t look at her, but also tried being nice doing things like cleaning up at our old place when I go there to watch the kids.
    See her and my kids once a week sometime twice
    Asked if her and kids needed anything if I was out,

    Sent kids home with food and gifts
    Watched the kids so I could see them more but also if she was stuck and needed someone cause the sitter couldn’t.

    Will ignoring work if I start now

  29. BD and others,

    I happily stumbled upon your blog and all of the great info yesterday.  Good thing it was a Saturday because I spent quite a bit of time trying to absorb as much as I could.

    I’m 49, will soon be separating from my wife (plan is to be out of the house within 2-3 months), have two kids (16 and 13) by her.  I’m fortunate in that the split is amicable, she already has her own career, so my alimony/child support shouldn’t be too much, and debts will be under control.

    I’m in good shape, work out regularly and eat well, so my fitness and overall health are great.  Many women have told me they thought I was up to 10 years younger.  One lady at work thought I was still in my 30s.

    I plan to do online game and am VERY intrigued about the chances to bang VYW.  Will be checking out your books for sale soon.

    Question for me, as I just read your post about personalities, such as introverts vs extroverts:

    One aspect of my personality is that I’m a “deep diver”, so whenever I encounter a new topic or project, I dive right in  to cover every detail possible.  Thus why I’ve been all-consumed with your content just about this whole weekend.  How do I divert that as necessary so I don’t “deep dive” emotionally with the first  hot, young thing that bangs my brains out?  I am guessing I’ll have to develop the discipline to deep-dive at the online game/crowd of women I’m currently trying to have sex with, versus doing the deep-dive on one chick.

    Thanks for all the great advice.

     

  30. How do I divert that as necessary so I don’t “deep dive” emotionally with the first  hot, young thing that bangs my brains out?

    I don’t really understand the question entirely, but I interpet it something like “how do I avoid getting feelings for this hot girl who fucks really good?” My answer: a. You have to be fucking other girls and b. Even then, it is harder than you think. Developing feeling for some attractive girl you are haivng sex with is completely normal. It is ok as long as you dont do something dumb based on those feelings (like promising her monogamy or spending too much time with her and neglecting your other life areas)

  31. @Walter,

    You are probably right, it’s maybe just another flavor of, “how do I avoid getting feelings for this one chick”.

    As with many areas of life, mental discipline is the key.

  32. Can you clarify it? I don’t get what you want or the situation. What I understand is that she is your exgf/wife, you have kids together and you want to get back with her.

    How are you going to ignore her, if you have kids together? If you have kids, you can’t ignore her for obvious logistical reasons.

    To the general “how do I get back with an ex” question, you should just work on becoming more attractive in general, and maybe she will want to get back with you later. Frankly I didn’t really understand your post.

     

  33. Yes wife, seperate 7 months ago, yes have kids together.

    I see her at least weekly

    I tried both sides ignoring and no contact

    And being nice and doing things for her via the kids and cleaning our old place a bit when I’m there seeing the kids while she works on certain days.

    Black Dragon said in an article you have to ignore an Ex to get them back but sick to it

    Now I have done both ignore and been nice, but i did not totally follow the advice in the article.

    I want to get back together im wondering is 7 months after the separation to late to start to ignore in an attempt to get her back like black dragon says.

    Yes I see her cause of the kids but it’s weekly and with dropping off and picking up kids it’s maybe 5 min total time seeing her a week if that. So yes you can ignore an Ex even with kids involved.

    Now lately I’ve tried the nice approach opposite of what the article said I’ve texted and asked if she needed stuff if I was out, sent home food and gifts for the kids, brought and left food for her at our old place where she is, shared old memories on social media to try to get her to miss thing us and remember us.

    My question is will it work 7 months after separation if I apply what the black Dragon said in this article.

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2014/10/12/important-ignore-breakup/

  34. Keep being nice with her and obviously with the kids.

    shared old memories on social media to try to get her to miss thing us and remember us

    Don’t do that. Putting that kind of stuff on social media won’t make her miss you. It sends the opposite message. It will probably turn her off.

    Do you know if she is seeing someone or not? If she has some new boyfriend then your chances are not good ATM.

    I don’t have any divorced friends so I don’t really know how to get back with an ex wife. In your situation I would take her to a nice restaurant and hint that you have been thinking about getting back together, see how she reacts.

  35. Ok i think I agree on the social media thing.

    And as far as I know 99% sure no boyfriend.

    But taking her out for a nice dinner won’t happen, she won’t wanna go, she is like the ex described in that blog Link i posted by black dragon eg she won’t call or text, she ignores sometimes if I text her.
    And being nice and a dinner is contrary to the advice in the black dragon blog.

    So that’s why I am asking will ignoring work now after 7 months.

    I can still be civil when I see her and kids but i won’t contact her like the blog said.

  36. Out of topic:
    How do Troubadour, Leon, Pinkfirefly, etc… post comments with an avatar picture?

  37. And being nice and a dinner is contrary to the advice in the black dragon blog.

    Twas about time you said that, the above comments are an absolute disaster. “she won’t call or text, she ignores sometimes if I text her”, dude, WTF, this seems to mean you’re texting her pretty often. You’re doing this completely wrong, whatever it is you’re hoping to achieve. Maybe BD will advise you because I’m feeling too lazy right now; bottom line is, DON’T invite her to a fancy dinner, STOP sending gifts (except for the kids) and stop billowing estrogen in her face by regularly asking how she’s doing, or saying and doing “nice” things.

  38. Lol ya estrogen ya i hear ya

    I wasnt gonna ask her to dinner
    And if I did she would prob reply like wtf no.

    I stopped texting her a week or a bit more ago asking how her and the kids are doing everyday.

    I also stopped asking if the kids needed anything when I was out, everytime i asked she said no we are fine.

    Or if I asked how her and kids were she would say kids are fine.

    I may still send the kids stuff now and then, but i won’t and didn’t send or leave her any food there for her the last time at our old place and i didn’t clean up there either the last time i was there last week.

    Gil i could use the help and advice please

    You said I’m doing this completely wrong, whatever it is im hoping to achieve.

    What I wanna achieve is have her miss me and contact me to maybe talk and work stuff out

    Get our marriage back together

    If I am doing this completely wrong, then what do I do to make it right.

    And fix things.

    Advice is welcome from Gil and whoever else.

  39. Can anyone offer advice, answer my above post will ignoring an Ex work after 7 months

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2016/09/15/theres-one-girl/

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/off-topic/

    And for god’s sake don’t listen to Walter.

    How do Troubadour, Leon, Pinkfirefly, etc… post comments with an avatar picture?

    Two ways to do it:

    1. Set up an account at en.gravatar.com and use the same email address that you use to post here (easier).

    2. Set up an account at wordpress.com (using the same email address again). (more complicated)

  40. One aspect of my personality is that I’m a “deep diver”, so whenever I encounter a new topic or project, I dive right in  to cover every detail possible.  Thus why I’ve been all-consumed with your content just about this whole weekend.  How do I divert that as necessary so I don’t “deep dive” emotionally with the first  hot, young thing that bangs my brains out?  I am guessing I’ll have to develop the discipline to deep-dive at the online game/crowd of women I’m currently trying to have sex with, versus doing the deep-dive on one chick.

    You have to make sure that you don’t get into analysis paralysis and spend all of your time learning and thinking rather than doing. Do you research, then stop reading, stop thinking, stop commenting, and get out into the real world and TAKE ACTION, and do so for MANY WEEKS.

    Too many deep-dive guys spend too much time online and not out in the real world actually meeting real-life women and having sex.

  41. BD,

    Good point in terms of “doing” and not just “thinking”.  I actually use that phrase in my line of work:  paralysis by analysis.  In fact, I am starting to see how some of the principals I use in my job can apply here too.  Talk about an eye-opener.

     

  42. excellent write up, far too many guys overrate how much value they bring to women, if they read something like this it would really help them out

     

    probably can include myself in that list of guys as well :p

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