Once again I am proud to present to you the next Great Blackdragon Debate, where I give one of you, my readers, an opportunity to debate me one-on-one on an issue you disagree with, to show the world how wrong I am. Or not. Always, we will debate below, and you will decide who won or lost the debate. I am also open to debate one of you for the next debate; just let me know in the comments or email me with your topic if you’re interested.

Today, we have AwareManNYC. The topic we will be debating is this:

If you adopt Alpha 2.0 practices as recommend by Blackdragon/Caleb, it’s harder to find  quality mate because your pool of eligible mates becomes dramatically smaller.

Obviously AwareManNYC will be arguing FOR, I will be arguing AGAINST. For purposes of brevity and organization, we will both be following the debate rules as outlined here. AwareManNYC’s comments will be in blue, mine will be in the usual black.

As always, I will let my opponent both start and end the debate with his opening and closing comments.

LET THE BATTLE BEGIN!!!

AwareManNYC:

BD,

I’m a big fan of your practical advice, which is based on seeing the world as it is and observing the way people really behave.

But I see a significant downside to your system. If someone adopts the Alpha 2.0 practices, the pool of eligible mates becomes dramatically smaller. Although you say that “things are rapidly changing”, I don’t see them changing so much that a large percentage of young women are ready to abandon SP and accept an OLTR Marriage. Later in life, perhaps some women are willing to accept this deal.

Imagine a young woman explaining to her friends and family that she is marrying this nice young man with a super strong prenup and an agreement that he can have sex with other women on the side. How many women will accept this deal? How many could keep it a secret? Most will hope they can get their Disney marriage, and many will get it.

So, as a result, a young man who follows your system will have a far smaller pool of women to mate with, especially if he wants children at a young age.

Even later in life, it seems from your own story that it is the rare woman who is both high quality and willing to accept the OLTR terms. In most of the cases you point out, having children is not part of the picture.

So, it seems the practical thing to do for young men seeking to mate is what you did. Marry the best woman you can find. Have children, work it out as long as you can, and then divorce and switch to a full A2.0 lifestyle. Otherwise you are going to have to settle for choosing from a much smaller pool of potential mates. The problem with this from an A2.0 perspective is that such a plan involves deception.

Blackdragon:

As is so often the case in these discussions, you have concerns, but I have data.

Per my spreadsheets, I’ve had scores of women in nonmono relationships over the past ten years, and ten either straight out asked to marry me or clearly indicated they wanted to marry me. (This doesn’t even include my current OLTR who never spoke of marriage before we got very serious. This also doesn’t include other women who had these feelings but never told me.)

All ten understood that such a marriage would involve me having sex with other girls and some legal protections (prenup, etc).

So your concern about “where in the world would you find these women?” is now answered. They’re right in front of you. Millions of them.

Their ages: 18, 19, 21, 23, 23, 25, 26, 27, 27, 35. As you can see, most of these women were young. Indeed, the oldest one (age 35) was the most resistant about the OLTR idea. So your contention that younger women are less likely to go along with this is inaccurate in my experience.

In terms of having kids, the ones who were 18, 19, 21, one of the 23 year-old’s, and one of the 27 year-old’s were all extremely eager to have children with me. Three were neutral about it, one couldn’t have kids, and one already had one and didn’t want more.

As you can see, the youngest ones were the most excited to have kids in an OLTR marriage with me.

In terms of quality, 50% had college degrees (2 of which were ivy league), 40% had what I’m sure were very high IQ’s, at least 40% had what most men would consider a 9 in looks or higher, 90% of them had never had a nonmonogamous relationship before me, and 70% were living good, “normal,” honest, responsible lifestyles.

Your turn.

AwareManNYC

The argument is not about whether you can find a mate at all, but whether the pool of women that would accept an OLTR marriage is smaller and suboptimal, especially for younger men. You found some women who say they would marry you. How many more choices would you have had if the pool was opened up to those who were not willing to accept OLTR marriage? Without the OLTR acceptance restriction, the pool of marriageable women would be larger and because of that any man, and especially younger men, would have a higher probability of a better mate.

Your numbers would be stronger with more detail. How many of your offers came from women you found to be special? You say they have quality in terms of looks, lifestyle, and college degrees, but how many were FBs, MLTRs, OLTRs? If none were OLTRs were they really that special?

Also, a marriage offer is not a marriage acceptance. As you pointed out in your recent blog, attractive people have options and take them rather than accepting relationships they don’t like. How many of your high quality women would have actually gone through with an OLTR marriage after considering their options? I suspect that some of your offers were based on NRE, and that others would have been rescinded.

Your Alpha 2.0 methods are based on the assumption that women have to be eased out of SP. In one post, you liken the process to taking a shower and slowly having the water temperature turned cold. You make no bones about the fact that you are nexted all the time by women who don’t want to accept Alpha 2.0 terms. If all the women who are not willing to accept an OLTR with children are now back in the pool, will your choices be better? Yes. 

Blackdragon:

If my backyard pool is a 2000 ft. in diameter, and you say, “Wouldn’t this be better if it were six miles wide?” that’s silly and irrelevant. I just showed that the pool for women for OLTR is huge, far more than most guys need. Worrying about making it even larger isn’t relevant to the typical guy practicing this system. The goal is to find a quality mate, not to have a bigger pool of possible mates than you actually need.

Of the 10 women, 5 I considered “special,” 1 was OLTR, 8 were MLTR‘s, one was FB.

More weren’t OLTR‘s because I didn’t want an OLTR at the time, not because they weren’t special.

In terms women rescinding their offers, you’re just speculating. Even if you’re right, and 50% magically rescinded their offer after I proposed marriage (very unlikely, but I’ll go with it), that still leaves 5 women, more than enough to choose a quality mate from if I had wanted one at the time.

You are nexted all the time by women who don’t want to accept Alpha 2.0 terms.

Correct, but those are all women who are FB‘s/MLTR‘s not getting any Disney, not married OLTR wives receiving a decent amount. As I’ve talked about before, if you offer a potential OLTR a decent amount of Disney on top of your Alpha 2.0 stuff, things FB‘s and MLTR‘s never get (like wife status, a girly wedding ceremony, a real marriage proposal, an engagement ring, living together, children, emotional exclusivity, financial support, etc) then a high number will go for it despite the prenup and open marriage stuff, particularly if they already really like you, which is already in the bag at that point (or should be).

I have never been nexted or LSNFTEd by an OLTR, and probably never will be.

AwareManNYC

Let’s take the focus off you and look at the prevalence of OLTR marriages that result in children, especially for younger men.

In all the mentions of OLTR relationships on your site, I don’t recall one that involves having children in the future. Usually, the OLTR arrangement described involves older men, who converted their marriage or created an OLTR relationship after kid-having. Can you point me to one relationship mentioned in your content where a man of 28 or younger created an OLTR marriage with the goal of having children and then had children?

Perhaps the men on the site who sought to marry younger can comment and explain if they found it hard to create an OLTR marriage? If what you say is true, would you expect that out of 10 younger men who married early and wanted children, we would find a few who had OLTR marriages with children.

My guess is that we don’t find even one for two reasons. First, you are an advanced Alpha 2.0 with mad skills. You are speculating when you assert other younger A2.0s will have a similar experience as you had as an older man. Few younger man can efficiently run the process it took you years to learn. If they can’t their pool of mates will be limited.

Second, SP and hormones are powerful. It is the rare young man who can have the discipline to apply A2.0 principles without having suffered from mistakes. This group will get traditionally married.

My view is that you should just admit that A2.0 principles are hard to adhere to at the beginning of a dating career. You program for the most part is about living a happy life after you made your mistakes in the first wave of dating or marriage, which is what it was about for you.

Blackdragon:

I know at least 5 couples in OLTR marriages who are or were under age 28, with kids. However, as I’ve said many times, young men should not have an OLTR, and young men should not have children.

Men should only have kids after they’ve accomplished their big goals in life. That means over age 35 or 40. Having kids in your 20’s is a very bad idea, period, regardless of OLTR, monogamous, or married. I realize few men who hear this take this advice, biology and Societal Programming being what they are, but I’m still right about this. Having kids early in life will make you less happy and less successful in the long-term.

OLTR is not something I recommend for men in their 20’s. As you correctly stated, men in their 20’s are often pretty stupid when it comes to relationships. When they attempt ANY serious relationship (monogamous or OLTR) it usually ends up blowing up in their faces.

Thus, men should wait until they’re at least 30 before they have ANY kind of girlfriend or wife. This addresses your point about older men being better at this; yes, but older men tend to be better (or less bad) at any type of relationship with a woman, not just Alpha 2.0.

Your advice for young men to get legally married and monogamous, have kids, then “just get divorced” is not only bad advice, but it’s probably the worst advice I’ve ever heard anyone give younger men. It’s savagely destructive on multiple levels (legally, financially, emotionally, sexually, logistically, etc).

That’s why I’m not here to encourage young men to make lethal mistakes. Fuck no! I’m here to show them the least bad way to life live in the modern era, even if that means you need to be a little patient.

AwareManNYC

First of all, I don’t recommend younger men get legally married and get divorced, I am just pointing out that, like you, many will because they feel they have met the right person and want what SP tells them to want.

The bottom line for me is that it seems obvious that if you take all the women in the world, a large percentage would never agree to OLTR terms for a relationship or a marriage. They have other choices and there is no reason for them to do anything they feel is a compromise. As you point out, accepting OLTR terms is seen by almost all women as a compromise because of SP. 

So in your case, you had 10 women who were willing to accept OLTR marriage. Would the number of women you could have married been higher if you had not wanted an OLTR marriage? Unless the world is free of Disney SP, the answer to this must be yes, so my argument that the pool of mates is reduced holds.

What you are arguing is that 1) It doesn’t matter of more women would marry you on non-OLTR terms because that’s a bad deal for the man. And 2) it is always possible to find a high quality woman who will accept OLTR terms for any age group. But in any event 3) younger men aren’t well equipped to navigate relationships and should avoid marriage before their life goals are in order.

So if you want to get married young and start a family, your advice is don’t. But if you do, use the OLTR model and you will find someone good enough. My point is that once you part from the Alpha 2.0 advice and decide to get married young, you are playing a different game and only seeking women from the OLTR pool will seem quite restrictive.

Blackdragon:

Of course there would have been more women willing to marry me under a traditional monogamous marriage. Traditional monogamous marriage doesn’t work anymore, so that’s irrelevant.

If I need to hire a full-time employee, and there are 5,000 candidates who want the job, but only want to work 3 days a week for double the pay I’m offering, that irrelevant to me. Instead, I’ll focus on the 2,000 (or 1,000, or 600, or whatever) candidates who want the job offering as stated and pick the best one of those. There’s more than enough in that pool to find what I want. The 5,000 other are completely irrelevant.

And correct, my advice to young men in the modern era and in the Western world is that they should wait unit they’re at least 35 before settling down and starting a family. I agree that sucks, but that’s the least-bad way of living life for a man in today’s problematic (Western) world.

Question: If you’re not recommending young men getting legally married and you don’t like the OLTR concept (which, as I said, is best for men over 35, not young men), then what is YOUR recommendation for young men? Please be very specific.

AwareManNYC:

This back and forth has clarified what bothers me about your program and what I think you should admit as a disclaimer. There is a social cost to being Alpha 2.0, just as there is a cost to being gay, poly, trans, or many other things that are unconventional and challenge norms. In your latest blog on converting from monogamy you essentially admit this in point D about not letting anyone know about the non-monogamous relationship.

The cost I started with is the idea that A2.0 reduces the pool of eligible mates. You admit this, but say it doesn’t matter because there are enough women who would accept OLTR marriage who are of high quality.

We often mate in communities of people that share our history, culture, values and interests. You have said that it is a bad idea for women to be public about accepting OLTR terms because the SP of the community kicks in, especially from other women. What would happen to a man in a community after his OLTR proposal is rejected? Would other women date him? In some communities, maybe it won’t be a problem. But in many it will and you admit as much by your recommendation to stay “in the closet” about Alpha 2.0 relationships in many cases.

My specific recommendation for a young person who believes in Alpha 2.0 values is to oscillate between serial monogamy and having multiple partners. Because you will be seen to be monogamous at times, you will be acceptable by any partner. But you should end such relationships and go back to the A2.0 model after some fixed time period, unless you are seeking to get married and have children. Then, in that context, you bring up the A2.0 rules because you want a sustainable long term relationship.  

I will leave it there and let AwareManNYC have the last word. I hope this debate has been entertaining and useful! Please us know in the comments your thoughts, who think won the debate, and if you’d like to debate me on another topic.

55 Comments on “Great Blackdragon Debate 5: Less Options for a Great Mate?

  1. The main problem is clearly seen between the lines in this debate. My opinion on this: the A2.0 model works as expected only if you manage to become a real alpha. It’s obvious but we should remember that.

    You can have the correct set of ideas about what an alpha male is, but if you don’t become one it’s completely useless. The interesting point of advice is not only to read it and understand it but also doing it.

    The pool of available women willing to accept the MLTR/OLTR system does not depend on SP only, it depends on YOU. AwareManNYC fails to realize that a woman is much more willing to accept an OLTR relationship if the man is and acts as an alpha. Of course if you’re a beta she’ll never ever agree on this because there’s nothing else to compensate, thus the “it feels like a compromise” that AMNYC mentioned.

    A woman will always prefer to sexually share an alpha than be faithful to a beta but she has to “feel” that you are an alpha.

  2. I’m not interested in having children,  so I am fine with some short term/medium term serial monogamy or polyamory, but mostly polyamory. (mostly MLTR‘s)     BD’s advice fits in with men who don’t want children very easily.

    But for guys who want a long term partner with kids they should at least attempt OLTR when they are over 30.  I agree the pool will be reduced but you only need one.   I think if a guy trys the alpha 2.0 lifestyle for at least 4 or 5 years with the view to getting an OLTR and if he fails (even if he does everything right), and the failure is almost 100 % due to the women not going along with it and nexting him,  then he should maybe consider more traditional options, (being mono, but still getting a pre nup).  I don’t think any man in the western world should ever get married without a pre nup, no matter how great the girl is.

    so in summary,  yes, the pool is reduced,  but even if the pool goes from 100 good ladies to 20:   That is still 20 and I think every man should at least attempt getting an OLTR and try many times over a 5 year period.  If after that period,  he feels it is too difficult,  he could then revert back to monogamy in a long term relationship,  but co habit or at worst,  get married but do get a pre nup.  If she refuses to sign pre nup.  Dump her/downgrade to FB.

     

    OLTR will very likely be better than TMM,  so guys should at least try and go for it,  for up to 5 years anyway.  No guy can claim the pool is bad, or it won’t work until he has tried it.   I have never tried for OLTR.  I’ve just had fb’s and mltr’s so far.   I have never attempted to try OLTR and I’m 37.  But I will attempt it going forward and I’m prepared to try many times.  I would only give up on the idea if I felt the vast majority of women wont accept it , then I have my own factual evidence, that the pool is substantially reduced.  You dont know the pool is reduced until you try it out in REAL LIFE.

  3. If after that period,  he feels it is too difficult,  he could then revert back to monogamy in a long term relationship,  but co habit or at worst,  get married but do get a pre nup.  If she refuses to sign pre nup.  Dump her/downgrade to FB.

    I still think it’s a very bad idea to go mono. Either you’re not alpha enough and that’s the reason you couldn’t build an OLTR relationship or you have made too many tactical/strategic errors.

  4. First thank you both for this interesting debate. And BD, as a long time reader I can’t thank you enough for all the great content and ideas.

    It seems to me that AwareManNYC’s main problem is going against social norms. This is something I struggled with in my 20s (I’m 35 now) and that now I consider an important part of adulthood.

    The quote from Gandi applies perfectly here “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win”. People are always chocked when you violate social norms, then they get used to it. This extremely powerful and I have friends who used this in the corporate world to get away with controversial and provoking behaviors and getting away with it. Just because their bosses got used to them behaving this way. In my case I wanted to marry a girl from a different racial background, the resistance was huge in the beginning but then my family got used to it and it wasn’t a problem anymore.

    After a while you’ll have some big win caused by your non conformist behavior and then people (the same who were choked initially) will now think you are the smartest one. It still doesn’t matter. It’s a question of freedom. If you know what you want and what is good for you, you need to stick with it and accept the social cost. My 2 cents here is that this social cost is less than what it seems, and that you’ll always have to pay it if you want any degree of freedom in your life.

    Cheers and hope this helps 🙂

  5. I completely agree with BD. I feel that AwareManNYC has not fully understood the concept of the Alpha2.0. A true Alpha has such masculinity, power, confidence, his success level is so high and he is like a bullet train and cannot be stopped on his way for even bigger accomplishments. These qualities + the ability to non-verbaly (yes keep your mouth SHUT not LIE) establish non-monogamy rules in the first 6 months – 1 year of the relationship are part of a well testet formulla, that will make the woman of your choosing realise that this kind of man (you) is a hundred times better than the typical male. And her hormones go BOOOOM.

    Oneitis is also one of the main factors that are a deal breaker with women, who you want to have an OLTR.A true Alpha will have atleast some women on the side which will eliminate it fully, or at least 90%.

    So the argument that ” the pool of eligible mates becomes dramaticaly smaller” is not valid, for the simple reason that you do not tell a woman these thing in the beginning of a relationship, but after a long period of subtle “whispering”… And when the time finally comes, and you did your job PERFECLTY most women are not only on board with it, but are eager.
    The disclaimer that BD should have is that achieving a true Alpha Male 2.0 status is not easy, that it takes years and years of practise, hard, hard work, and that only then are all of these wonderfull things possible.
    Basicaly its not for pus*ies.. :))
    Very interesting debate, thanks to BlackDragon for all the incredible info over the years.

  6. I have found that with this system you have FAR FAR FAR greater options for a quality mate. I don’t understand if AMNYC is just debating just for the sake of debate for this:

    1) Without the OLTR restriction you wouldn’t even have a quality pool of women. Just few women. Most women would have abandoned you because you are monogamous and if you were not most women would have abandoned you because you are dishonest and don’t have the balls to tell them eventually what your nature pushes you to do.

    2) Without the OLTR restriction it means you are at best a serial monogamist. This means just few women in your life. You promise each woman a monogamy, then you dump her and move on to the next. With each women you are 2-4 years together. How many women did you have in your entire life(that you could also revisit) to even call them a pool? 20 at best in your entire life? Compare this with a person that follows the 2.0 system in same number of years. At worst 1 new woman each year? This means approximately 40 women that you could also revisit. That hands down gives much more and greater options for a quality mate.

    3) Being monogamous means far less partners in your life irrespective if you have orbiter women that want to marry you. You are with your woman for years and you are not allowed to be with another woman at that time(so that you will get to know new people that will make quality partners). That alone removes you from meeting potential quality partners in a much worse situation than the OLTR restriction

    4) I don’t understand the fear for what society believes(from people who follow the 2.0 system). Most women are going crazy when they know you are a 30+ bachelor(that knows game) and you are not going to settle any time soon. Your partners fear society and what they will say, but by the time they are years with you and still horny for you they won’t care much about society. Their wrong perception about “lame non-monogamy” is replaced by something very cool and refreshing. Many women who have been in long mono relationships or marriages seek for something like that but don’t admit it because of SP. Women don’t avoid you. On the contrary they are curious. And women who would never wanted you if you were monogamous, are intrigued by your OI nature.

    5) What you recommend is far more difficult and not sustainable. We are not robots that you could flip a switch and we will be monogamous in an instant and then flip another switch and we are back at our best immediately. Because being monogamous means your game becomes rusty. You automatically become beta. You become lovey dovey with your monogamous partner and she owns your balls. You are also dishonest to her if you try to fuck some other woman behind her back. No being non monogamous means that you are still a “player”, something that you cannot sustain if you are monogamous. It is a frame. You cannot trick people with your flip flop mentality, at least not for long.

  7. It was an interesting debate, and honestly, I don’t think there is a clear winner, as both of you made some good points.

    My issue with AwareManNYC is that he is coming from the assumption that women are pretty much doing men a favour by being with us and can leave at any moment for a better mate, so we have to be nice and play by the rules to keep them in our lives. That sounds super-beta if you ask me. I am in no way Alpha 2.0, but outcome independence is one thing that I learned from this blog and it makes the whole topic of “pool size” irrelevant.

    Besides, AwareManNYC concentrates so much on the female sexual value (looks, speciality, youth) but forgets about his own. Girls should be happy to have you! Sure, they can (and probably will) leave, but its up to you to expand the pool size by improving yourself, not by dwelling on the drawbacks of the Alpha 2.0 concept.

    I have a feeling Blackdragon didn’t completely understand AwareManNYC, when he was making a point about younger guys level of game and how difficult/impossible it is for them to execute Alpha 2.0 concept. I think he made a good point about it being for older guys due to experience.

  8. I consider this a draw.

    Both are right.

    NYC is right when he says it makes the pool smaller. If i rephrase it a little we could say it makes it HARDER or you have to provide a higher value.

    Example: BDs first wife. I dont know her so i have to rely on how caled described her over the years.

    I dont think she would have gone with a 2.0 OLTR back when he met her. She was looking for a provider to take care of her and her son. She needed the extra security from a traditional marriage, in particular the financial part. You have to offer a woman a very good deal in other areas if she is to accept these drawbacks/risks.

    Now BD is right when he says the pool is big enough and there is plenty of high quality wife material available. Of course it is. IF YOU ARE VERY HIGH VALUE YOURSELF.

    I do consider BD in the top 1% of the world when it comes to money. I dont know if he has the 470 000$ needed to get there yet, I suspect he does, but if not he will have it soon enough.

    In addition he got game. He is good looking. Even though I do disagree with his aversion to drama (I see this as a flaw) he is a very high value man. All things considered top 0.1%+ of males world wide.

    Meaning in 1 million males you will find less than 1000 who are as high value as BD.

    There are a lot more than 1000 women 7/8/9/10 if we take a random sample of 1 000 000 females.

    Can you see the picture? Its all in the numbers.

     

  9. As stated in the comments here, BD and AMNYC are pretty much comparing apples and oranges. If you are not 2.0, low-to-no standards and a drama tolerance through the roof, your dating pool includes every single woman in the world. If you like hot, drama-free women who fully accept that your mission is the most important thing in your life, the dating pool automatically gets smaller. Why even bother going after long-term mates who do not fit in the latter category? Let the 1.0s satisfy the high-drama girls and the betas satisfy the provider hunters. Never seek out the perfect mate, but select the one who stands out among the crop, should she prove herself worthy.

  10. @maldek: Huh? The one side of the debate is about becoming a 2.0 man. Being a 2.0 means you are high value: 1) You have high income, 2) You can get beautiful women fast 3) And you can sustain long term relationship with said women etc.

    Without high income and multiple businesses you are not a 2.0. So your comment and NYC’s comment is irrelevant.

    WE are talking about becoming a 2.0 man here. So it is not only about women. You also have to get your financials in order simultaneously. If I was a 20 year old starting multiple businesses that will get my financials in order 5 years from now AND at the same time followed the 2.0 system about women, I would have been in a far far better position than a normal monogamous 20 year old in finding quality women. With much bigger pool of women.

     

  11. As stated in the comments here, BD and AMNYC are pretty much comparing apples and oranges. If you are not 2.0, low-to-no standards and a drama tolerance through the roof, your dating pool includes every single woman in the world.

    No JEB. My dating pool would have been even less than the 2.0 man, because not many women would have wanted to date a pussy, needy man. Not many women would have wanted to date an obsessive man who wants to control others. The 2.0 man expands his pool because he is care free. And women love that shit. Also 2.0 man’s only concern is the looks when he first dates a woman. The mono guy discards women that could have been quality women down the road because he is screening with a big list.

  12. I would have never considered to date my current MLTR if I was monogamous. Not because she is not beautiful, but because she is too traditional for my taste. But since I get my dose of rollecoaster from other women, I don’t care if she is too traditional for my taste. I also taught her to loose some “traditionality” and she became a bit wilder since she met me.

    From society’s point of view she is very high quality woman. Has a master’s degree, works in a very good company and she is a giver. This is a woman I would have never considered dating, if I was monogamous, because I would have thought that there is no match between us.

  13. To NYC’s point, there is a cost in pursuing this A2.0 lifestyle BUT there is also a cost to TMM.  The question is where you place your overall long term happiness in the grand scheme of things.   While TMM will satisfy the SP in you and others around you and get you all those pats on the back, deep down you may not be a very happy guy.   That is unless you consider social validation to be the most important thing to you.

    I’m sure many of us around these parts once felt this way-bowing to pressures from family, peers and society to fit in and just go along to get along.  It’s tough to break away from the pack but it can make you much happier long term once the short term pain is done.

    I find many people are more curious (and sometimes envious) of my lifestyle than are outwardly angry or suspicious of it.  Secretly many have told me(men AND women) that they wish they would have had the foresight to pursue that path before locking into a TMM.

  14. Reading this it strikes me that NYC is either trapped in a very SP, mono mindset or he just doesn’t have much experience with dating women non-monogamously. I can’t imagine ever giving a fuck about how big my ‘pool’ is when I’ve got three lovely women all very eager to see me every week and at least one of them has stated openly that she wants an OLTR/OLTR marriage with me. And that’s not even close to the amount of willing women that someone like BD has had or many other guys who actually put in a lot of effort into this (I haven’t).

    IMO NYC seems like he just hasn’t experienced enough of this personally. If he had he would have already encountered plenty of women who are much more open to non-mono arrangements than one would suspect without practicing this stuff.

  15. Probably the best debate on here so far.

    There was one fundamental assumption on awareman’s part here throughout the debate.

    He routinely said something like –

    “The bottom line for me is that it seems obvious that if you take all the women in the world, a large percentage would never agree to OLTR terms for a relationship or a marriage. They have other choices and there is no reason for them to do anything they feel is a compromise. As you point out, accepting OLTR terms is seen by almost all women as a compromise because of SP. ”

    The assumption is always as if the oltr marriage or request basically comes out of nowhere. As if you just take a women you’re already with, and try to convert it to an oltr or oltr marriage.

    But that’s just one of the ways of having an oltr.

    The other way is that, and while I don’t have the numbers that bd does to back this up, he said in his own life after having “the talk” with women that a full 80% or so ( or more ) go for it within some rules or guidelines they give back.

    You then get to enjoy a relationship with less drama, less expectations, and get to know each other (and get to know what the girl is really about) at least more so than a typical relationship where let’s say sometimes the women might “hide” her true self (guys may do this as well) because she wants to be more of her best self as she waits for the next stage of the relationship .

    From this pool of women (and again, at least according to bd) Who most of them went with the arrangement, you can then decide for yourself which one you’d like to get more serious with, and then becomes an oltr.

    At that point, going into an oltr marriage is a completely different thing, because she’s Alessa accepted these terms for well over 6 months and knows how it goes, and may have seen with her own two eyes the other benefits to her with this type od relationship, rather than the downsides.

    There’s also another thing you left out awareman – you didn’t count the amount of women that “next”, and then come back and resume the relationship. Granted that once a women nexts you it’s likely she won’t become an oltr(although not for sure), even in bd’s own current case I believe he and his girl saw each other for a while, had a year or two apart or so, then resumed the relationship afterwards but became more serious

    Generally speaking, if you go through a “normal”
    Breakup in a monogamous relationship, things will very likely not be the same after, and that’s another pool of women you could have potentially seen again if it started out as a mltr for example, but too many damaged expectations, drama, and hurt feelings have pretty much ruined a potential future relationship from that point on.

  16. My specific recommendation for a young person who believes in Alpha 2.0 values is to oscillate between serial monogamy and having multiple partners. Because you will be seen to be monogamous at times, you will be acceptable by any partner. But you should end such relationships and go back to the A2.0 model after some fixed time period, unless you are seeking to get married and have children. Then, in that context, you bring up the A2.0 rules because you want a sustainable long term relationship.  

    I don’t get it. Why would I ever go for monogamy to be acceptable by any partner if I have large enough pool by being nonmonogamous as stated by BD (and you agreeing with him)? And then on top of that have fixed time periods instead of theoretically infinite nonmono relationships. What is the advantage of serial monogamy here? My English is not that great so maybe I’m missing something here.

  17. @AwareManNYC ignores a simple point.

    If you’re Alpha and young, basic game will get you laid left and right for a long period of time (+10 years). And no, you don’t have to be a player or look like Brad! Basic red pill knowledge and an ounce of Alpha balls is more than enough.

    From that pool your OLTR will naturally emerge when both your age and mission status allow it. It’s basic math…just gotta play with the numbers.

  18. heyhey

    “Being a 2.0 means you are high value: 1) You have high income, 2) You can get beautiful women fast 3) And you can sustain long term relationship with said women etc.”

    If these were the requirements of the debate NYC had won.

    Why? Because if 1-3 is equal the 1.0 can get provider hunter/gold digger women in ADDITION to those willing to be MLTR. If this is a good thing is material for another debate.

     

    I said it is a draw because it works well enough for high value men (like caleb himself).

    For low value men (young guys with little to show) on the other hand it makes an already hard game even harder.

  19. In my experience women over 30 are more likely to accept a prenup but less likely to accept an open marriage. On the other hand, women under 30 are more likely to accept an open marriage but less likely to accept a prenup.

    The reality is any quality relationship is going to involve negotiation.  In order to effectively negotiate, you need to figure out what you are willing to accept first. My OLTR hates me hooking up with women in our small city but can deal with it when I’m far away. I like sexual variety and travel. I also have a lot more time than her. So we have an arrangement where I travel for a few weeks every 2 or 3 months. I am currently in S America.

    Blackdragon is correct that non-monogamous relationships are where its at and it is insane for a man to marry in Anglo countries without a prenup. However as I think Blackdragon will agree, there is not a one size fits all formula.

  20. I don’t think any man in the western world should ever get married without a pre nup, no matter how great the girl is.

    The challenge is that, in most places where prenups do the most good they are no longer enforceable, as I talked about here.

    Without the OLTR restriction it means you are at best a serial monogamist. This means just few women in your life. You promise each woman a monogamy, then you dump her and move on to the next. With each women you are 2-4 years together. How many women did you have in your entire life(that you could also revisit) to even call them a pool? 20 at best in your entire life? Compare this with a person that follows the 2.0 system in same number of years. At worst 1 new woman each year? This means approximately 40 women that you could also revisit. That hands down gives much more and greater options for a quality mate.

    Good point; the Cream of the Crop model; I’ve made that point many times but didn’t in the debate. Statistically you will end up with a better mate, more suited to what you want, if you date the larger pool of women the FB/MLTR structure provides than with with one-at-a-time serial monogamy.

    being monogamous means your game becomes rusty. You automatically become beta.

    Correct, at least eventually.

    I have a feeling Blackdragon didn’t completely understand AwareManNYC, when he was making a point about younger guys level of game and how difficult/impossible it is for them to execute Alpha 2.0 concept. I think he made a good point about it being for older guys due to experience.

    My issue with that is that “young guys” shouldn’t be pursuing OLTR, marriage, or children at all, so the argument that OLTR is harder for young guys is completely irrelevant to me.

    I do consider BD in the top 1% of the world when it comes to money. I dont know if he has the 470 000$ needed to get there yet, I suspect he does, but if not he will have it soon enough.

    In addition he got game. He is good looking. Even though I do disagree with his aversion to drama (I see this as a flaw) he is a very high value man. All things considered top 0.1%+ of males world wide.

    You’re overestimating me both financially and in appearance. Granted I am high value if you compare me to the typical guy, but a lot of that is due to the fact I’m 45 years old and have been working on my value areas for quite a while.

    Your overall point is valid though; that’s why I constantly scream at guys to get their incomes up, improve their game and confidence, maximize their physical appearance, etc. The higher value you become, the easier your woman life becomes (and the happier you’ll be regardless of women).

    I find many people are more curious (and sometimes envious) of my lifestyle than are outwardly angry or suspicious of it.

    Same here. And the more time that goes on, the more that has become true.

    I can’t imagine ever giving a fuck about how big my ‘pool’ is when I’ve got three lovely women all very eager to see me every week and at least one of them has stated openly that she wants an OLTR/OLTR marriage with me.

    That is my attitude as well.

  21. Seems like it boils down to the fact that most women want children eventually, an alpha 2.0 may never want them. I can see the “paradox” on that, but Blackdragon is still right. Due to the sheer amount of women an alpha 2.0 has been with, it is statisctically much more likely that he will find a woman who wants the same as he does.

  22. BD, I am curious as to what you make of this take on your debate with AwareManNYC.

    It seemed that he was operating from the premise that the goal was to find a OLTR relationship or marriage and that your system was in his mind meant to progress towards that as an ultimate goal.  This is an assumption about his logic, not your system.  Consequently, after reading your book and blog and seeking to apply it myself, it seems as if this does not have to be the ultimate goal.  The finding the OLTR is only under certain variables which all must be present.  The woman has the right personal characteristics and desire for this and you want such a relationship and both want that relationship at the time.  In the absence of all of these variables the relationship has one of the other status that you teach.

    The real challenge to AwareManNYC’s position is based on the above and something that I notice.  He was stating that the pool gets smaller.  Since your system is based upon honesty with the woman, it is possible to observe something with great accuracy and which has been described in other ways in the rest of the manosphere.  Young women and some older are not interested in OLTR and even MLTR at different times in their lives even if they will one day eventually be great candidates for these statuses.  A great majority of women play around while young and then do something different when they want to marry or are a likely candidate for OLTR.  Thus an Alpha 2.0 has a large pool of women at young age since most women at that age are promiscuous.  His difference is when they are in the mode of having a child, or wanting a boyfriend or marriage.  It is at this time that he offers an option that is surprisingly acceptable to them as they are already used to promiscuity and simply need help working out their SP.

    Further since there is no deception in this system AwareManNYC’s point here is moot.  You do not need to deceive women who do not care at the time and those that do already know where you stand and are open to it in many cases.

    As a practical example, as I enter this world, starting over, it is amazing how many women accept my honesty when I say in platonic discussions that I am looking for something what you would call FB, no commitment or open if I did something long term.  They either completely get it or just my ZFG attitude does the trick.  I am researching it in casual conversations and with interested females and I am getting no push back.  Much more females than people realize have no issue with this as long as they do not have to admit that it is slut behavior.  The more it is what you the man want; the easier it is for them.  I think that this is the major battle in men’s minds.

  23. If these were the requirements of the debate NYC had won.

    Not really. The 1.0 will lose many women due to their low tolerance of control(if these women are quality girls or not is hard to pin down) . Many women, in fact most will not accept your controlling behavior. At least down the road. So if you are a high value man, with a 1.0 attitude you are better than the beta, only because you are getting high value women in terms of looks and more numbers, not necessarily quality women though. Your attitude will remove many options for great mate. As I’ve said also in a previous post your long list of screening will remove many options for great mate. Still the 2.0 has much much more options because most women love care free mentality from a high value man even if they don’t outright admit it due to SP.

    Also the debate is about a Great mate. So yes the “if this is a good thing” is important here in this debate. A gold digger will rarely be a great mate.

    Low value men will have less options for great mate REGARDLESS. A low value man needs to learn many things to have more options for a great mate. So a system doesn’t play much role if you don’t have game, right? If you simply mean a young guy with little to show for but makes women wet with his game and looks, then he is not a low value man. For this guy the 2.0 system is far better to follow than any other system.

  24. It seemed that he was operating from the premise that the goal was to find a OLTR relationship or marriage and that your system was in his mind meant to progress towards that as an ultimate goal.  This is an assumption about his logic, not your system.  Consequently, after reading your book and blog and seeking to apply it myself, it seems as if this does not have to be the ultimate goal.  The finding the OLTR is only under certain variables which all must be present.  The woman has the right personal characteristics and desire for this and you want such a relationship and both want that relationship at the time.  In the absence of all of these variables the relationship has one of the other status that you teach.

    That’s generally accurate and I think I agree. It’s clear that AwareManNYC is probably in provider hunter mode right now, or else this issue wouldn’t concern him as much as it does (I could be wrong of course). As such, he, like many men in the manosphere (who usually lean right-wing), use this need to find a wife and have kids and the lenses through which they view any and all relationship advice they hear, including mine. It’s not about what will get him laid, or what will make him long-term happy, or how to integrate women as a component of his life (along with Mission, finances, etc) rather than a focus, but rather, “How can I find a woman who will make a good wife and mom? I want kids dammit!”

    A common criticism from men like this (and again, I’m only assuming AwareManNYC is one of these men; perhaps he isn’t) is that the Alpha Male 2.0 system is “harder” for men seeking marriage (or a marriage-like relationship) with children. This is correct, but ALL dating and relationship systems are harder for these men, including traditional paths like monogamy. As I’ve shown and explained numerous times for many years, the ALL paths of living with a woman for 20+ years with no divorce and raising happy kids with her are extremely problematic and unlikely today in the modern era and the Western world. None of them work “well” anymore. All of them suck. Your job, if this is something you want, is to find the one the sucks the least. And as much as it bothers some men to hear it, that means an OLTR marriage.

    That doesn’t mean OLTR / OLTR marriage is free of problems or disadvantages. There are certainly a few. It simply means it’s the least bad option for being / living with a woman for a prolonged period of time, today in the Western world.

    I don’t love it either. But that’s the way it is.

  25. That doesn’t mean OLTR / OLTR marriage is free of problems or disadvantages. There are certainly a few. It simply means it’s the least bad option for being / living with a woman for a prolonged period of time, today in the Western world.

    Life is a series of choices between bad and worse.” —Toshiro Umezawa, Magic the Gathering.

  26. In all the mentions of OLTR relationships on your site, I don’t recall one that involves having children in the future.

    Sigh. Read more.

  27. The debate title was this

    If you adopt Alpha 2.0 practices as recommend by Blackdragon/Caleb, it’s harder to find  quality mate because your pool of eligible mates becomes dramatically smaller.

     

    a key word for the title being dramatically.

    It would be good if BD can talk more about his own stats and stats from other alpha 2.0’s that BD has met in real life, who are doing everything right and have their shit together.  It seems BD can get about 75% of women to survive the Talk and of the ones that dont, most return.  So about 85 to 90% will be in his life after he starts talking openly about non-monogamy.   So maybe about 10 to 20% drop out.  That is not dramatically smaller.  If BD said that only about 30 or 40% survived the Talk then I would suggest that the system has major flaws.  But to get 3 out of 4 women on board is great.

    can BD give stats from other 2.0 buddies that he knows in real life ?

    can other 2.0 guys on this blog (with experience and who do this right) quote some of their stats?

    A dramatic reduction for me is more than 50% vanishing after the Talk.  I would say  if 50% or more survive the Talk that is still good and there is still plenty in the pool.  so not a dramatic reduction, like AwareManNYC  would suggest.   

  28. I mentioned before that every man in the western world should get a pre nup.   After doing research it seems like they are a waste of time in England.   Any guys living in England…..  you are insane getting married in England.   My mate owns a house outright , and will inherit 7 million £.     he is looking into getting a pre nup.  The girls net worth is zero and has little inheritance coming her way.   he should just not bother getting marrried.

     

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3525528/Judges-say-ignore-pre-nups-unless-couple-rich-Warning-majority-agreements-waste-time-courts-instead-base-decisions-fairness.html

     

     

  29. I think BD’s system is fully satisfactory on its own terms; but obviously if you follow some tenets and reject others it’ll go down differently, eg doing nonmonogamy but trying to have kids early in life, or pretending to be “alpha” while worrying about social acceptance issues.

    But this reminded me of the one aspects of the 2.0 system that I still have a problem with: the drastic constraints it puts on how often you can allow yourself any boyfriend behaviors. Last time I tried to express this I ended up saying that I had both “a sex drive and a boyfriend drive”, for lack of a better expression, and that under BD’s model, any (moderate) amount of bf behaviors are only gonna be possible perhaps once (I mean one multi-month segment) per decade or so, ie when one of your women finally ascends to OLTR status. The system’s goal is long term happiness, and it achieves it by addressing a man’s needs, including the need for sex; but if you also have a need for emotional intimacy that requires a certain frequency (higher than the average frequency of OLTRs under BD’s model, since you’ll only be in OLTRs – and thus allowed bf behaviors – a small fraction of your life), then the model fails in that respect, or it fails with men who have such needs.

    I’d also be interested in what variation of BD’s system could work for men who have more than 1 love box (IIRC, BD said he has 1 love box, a couple affection boxes and infinity sex boxes). Is the man gonna be emotionally exclusive to two women while sexually non-exclusive ? Can it practially be done ?

  30. It would be good if BD can talk more about his own stats and stats from other alpha 2.0’s that BD has met in real life, who are doing everything right and have their shit together.  It seems BD can get about 75% of women to survive the Talk and of the ones that dont, most return.  So about 85 to 90% will be in his life after he starts talking openly about non-monogamy. So maybe about 10 to 20% drop out.  That is not dramatically smaller.

    I haven’t crunched those particular numbers lately, but that’s about right, yes.

    can BD give stats from other 2.0 buddies that he knows in real life ?

    Based on most other men I know in real life who have tried this, and men in my membership program, and men I’ve coached, their numbers are high but not quite as high as mine. As a rough estimate, I’d say The Talk gives them a 30-35% overall dropout rate. It’s important to note that most of these guys are doing some things wrong during the relationship (usually seeing her more than once a week or engaging in some boyfriend behaviors; that’s a hard habit for newbies to crack). If they were doing everything right, their Talk success rates would be much higher than 70%.

    A dramatic reduction for me is more than 50% vanishing after the Talk.

    It’s very rare I’ve run into a man with success rates that low unless he’s very new to the process, done a lot of things wrong, and has only attempted it once or twice.

    I mentioned before that every man in the western world should get a pre nup.   After doing research it seems like they are a waste of time in England.   Any guys living in England…..  you are insane getting married in England.

    Correct. Prenups are useless in England. My understanding (though I may be wrong) is post-nuptual agreements can be enforceable in the UK, but that’s extraordinarily risky. You could marry her, ask her to sign one, and she can tell you to fuck off (or sod off, as you Brits would say) and now you’re screwed.

    Yes, if you live in the UK, do not get married using a standard civil license. You have no protections as a man. It’s not quite as bad as California, but it’s close.

    under BD’s model, any (moderate) amount of bf behaviors are only gonna be possible perhaps once (I mean one multi-month segment) per decade or so, ie when one of your women finally ascends to OLTR status

    I love how you pulled that once per decade number completely out of your ass. I’ve been doing this for a decade, and I’ve engaged in many “multi-month segments” of boyfriend behaviors with at least four different women, so you are woefully incorrect.

    Also remember that *some* boyfriend behaviors can be done with a high-end MLTR, assuming your frame is very strong and you’re doing everything else correctly.

    I’d also be interested in what variation of BD’s system could work for men who have more than 1 love box (IIRC, BD said he has 1 love box, a couple affection boxes and infinity sex boxes). Is the man gonna be emotionally exclusive to two women while sexually non-exclusive ? Can it practially be done ?

    That is “true” polyamory, and yes, it can be done, but it’s very complicated, not low-drama, and almost never Alpha 2.0 compatible. Frankly, most men I’ve seen do this are extreme pussy betas with more ugly, Dominant girlfriends, who themselves have multiple boyfriends (the type of polyamory many guys in the manosphere make fun of).

  31. BD-  pre nups legally enforceable in Scotland.  But in the rest of UK, they are not.   But why bother moving to rainy Scotland,  just avoid marriage and co habit if you must live with a woman 🙂  🙂

  32. The biggest flaw I see in AMNYC’s reasoning is that it seems to come from a learned helplessness mindset. “Be a good man, and maybe you’ll be rewarded with a decent mate”. I, too, used to believe that girlfriends Just Fall Out Of The Sky, that It Just Happens.

    you are an advanced Alpha 2.0 with mad skills

    If you can’t say the same about yourself, then write at the top of the list of actions you need to take to find your perfect mate: “Step 1. Obtain mad skills”!

    IIRC, BD’s divorce was 10 years ago, in which time he developed a system that seems to work great for him. Having access to his books, to other materials, how can anyone who isn’t severely handicapped not achieve comparable results by age 18+10 = 28? How can a highly compatible woman not rise to the top from among satisfying low-drama relationships if in just a year or two the number of such relationships overtakes the number of partners the average man will have in his entire lifetime?

    Let me use this opportunity to thank BD for dealing the final blow to learned helplessness in me. I had my financial life in order before encountering him, but still believed stupid things about women. Now I know I can achieve any reasonable goal, and if I don’t know how exactly, then it’s just a matter of “Step 1. Research”.

  33. this is great. I’m 25, tried for an open relationship with a chick before my birthday and it blew up in my face but she agreed at first! I was literally living at my parents still and in between jobs. afterwards it seemed it was best to just to work on the rest of my life anyways.

    I have not gotten to alpha 2.0, but having tried monogamy twice, no matter how much I liked this girl, admiral ackbar was in the background yelling, “it’s a trap!”

    I gathered up as best a rotation I could muster on my own and have been working on the rest of my life for a few months now peacefully with zero to no drama and sex three times a week. have likely the most progress I’ve ever made making BDs system work with what I have than I’ve ever experienced having a monogamous girlfriend or sifting inbetween. thats just me, though.

    avid fan. BD all the way. can’t imagine what’s ahead. working to get into this membership program asap

  34. I love how you pulled that once per decade number completely out of your ass. I’ve been doing this for a decade, and I’ve engaged in many “multi-month segments” of boyfriend behaviors with at least four different women, so you are woefully incorrect.

    Not exactly. It’s a very rough average I proposed some months ago (under the boyfriend behaviors article), for the sake of argument, and when I did it then, you didn’t contradict it, so again, for the sake of argument, I reused it here without taking the exact 10 year figure too seriously, which is why I added perhaps. If it’s way off, then it’s way off.

    I can’t find the exact line, but here’s the first comment:
    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2016/11/17/what-are-boyfriend-behaviors/#comment-292315
    I also so said this:

    It seems like a bad deal to have to go through all the process of perfecting the handling of MLTRs and testing multiple OLTR candidates until one qualifies when I’m like 40 or 50

    And you replied with this:

    Dude…that sounds like a paradise to me. MLTRs are wonderful.

    So again, since I wasn’t contradicted when I assumed OLTRs would be very infrequent, I kept assuming it.

  35. But who wants that? i had my fair share of women i used to pro wrestle, was well built and in gyms all the time, i had 2 LTR, one that lasted 9y. She cheated on me. Now at 45 and single for 4 years i love my life, i met a lot of women in those 4 years lots of them single moms, most women past there prime here in Montreal are very shallow, land whale for most part, all wrinkled they want the perfect man younger full of hair etc.. the impossible. After meeting all those numb nuts, i decided to simply stop looking for women, i am free as a bird do what i want never had kids…. and i realize i was the luckiest man on earth, how many couple separate, kids in this and all…… most teens today are on anti depressant pills its hell out there.

    I want none of that. I have younger women coming on to me, feels awkward, most of them express the need to have kids….. i want none of that…….

    Most men i know my age took the decision to remain single, what can i women bring into a relationship a part sex…. which most of the time is bad…..to endure all the rest because of the fear of being alone…….

  36. How many women will accept this deal? How many could keep it a secret? Most will hope they can get their Disney marriage, and many will get it.
    So, as a result, a young man who follows your system will have a far smaller pool of women to mate with, especially if he wants children at a young age.

    Ok first thing, if you want to win a debate here it’s not gonna happen without empirical data to back up your arguments. “As a result” my ass, where are your results?

    It’s impossible to know how much larger or smaller the pool is. Most women in open relationships are discreet out of fear of being judged. Further, the vast majority of people don’t know how amenable they are to open relationships until they actually experience one for themselves.

    “How many women will accept this deal?” Well, every girl I’ve dated for the past several years for starters. And I’m just one guy on this site. And most of my rotation consists of MLTRs, not FBs (i.e. feelings are involved).

    I believe the point BD is making, and I agree with him, is that even if the pool is demonstratively smaller, it’s not enough of a difference to impact the ROI for the time and energy we invest in dating. Therefore making the answer irrelevant.

    The only people who ask these types questions are the people too scared to try open relationships. Which brings me to another question: How many people have adopted the 2.0 lifestyle, discovered they didn’t like it, and then returned to the monogamous lifestyle? I’m speculating zero?

     

  37.  (IIRC, BD said he has 1 love box, a couple affection boxes and infinity sex boxes)

    I also found that “love and affection model” very interesting. I wonder how it works, in neurological terms. Assuming love can be reduced to chemicals in the brain, is there a finite amount of chemicals that can be associated with one person, so that you can only love one woman at the same time? I agree with Blackdragon that it is very hard to love two women at the same time.

  38. @donnie demarco

    “How many people have adopted the 2.0 lifestyle, discovered they didn’t like it, and then returned to the monogamous lifestyle? I’m speculating zero?”

    I’m guessing close to zero but I’m betting some people succumb to SP over time and go back to the old model to appease family, etc…  because you know, have to make grandma happy in the last few years of her life.  Personally, I could never go back after knowing what I know after some years of living a more 2.0 lifestyle.  I’d be even more miserable than before since I know there’s greener pastures for men like me.

    People that are so concerned about what their elder family member think need to remember that one day, these folks will be dead and gone, and you’ll be left dealing with the decisions you made to appease them.  not a great way to plan your life.

    I would add to this overall post that my “pool” of women is just fine and I don’t even do online dating or apps. I have met all girls in my life through real life interactions or social circle and I’ve got plenty of options. Besides, I’m not interested in women in the “traditional” sphere which is the larger pool. I won’t jive with those girls so it’s pointless to worry about missing out on any of these options. Yes I may have to dig a little deeper but the girls I have are better aligned to my life.

  39. How many people have adopted the 2.0 lifestyle, discovered they didn’t like it, and then returned to the monogamous lifestyle? I’m speculating zero?

    There have been a small number of guys I’ve heard of who tried having FB‘s and MLTR‘s for a few months, decided it was too much work, and went right back to Alpha 1.0 cheating “monogamy.” Almost always these guys did a few things wrong with their nonmonogamous relationship management though (particularly seeing women more than once a week, doing boyfriend behaviors, never soft nexting, or soft nexting incorrectly).

    There’s a much larger number of guys who went de facto monogamous with an OLTR or high-end MLTR purely because of laziness or complacency, but not because they consciously decided they didn’t like Alpha 2.0. They still support the lifestyle and still consider themselves 2.0 regardless of the de facto monogamy (which is always temporary of course).

    Beyond that, no, I’ve never heard of anyone being successful with 2.0 and then consciously deciding that monogamy was better.

  40. @BD, @Crab:

    Trading freedom for validation, control, or complacency reasons. Ouch.

    Let this be a lesson to the new guys: Alpha 2.0 is an all-in thing. You can’t dip your toes in it; you have to suck it up and accept that your life will permanently change after you walk through the door. The good news is, there’s a very good chance that you’ll like the change in the end.

    Assuming love can be reduced to chemicals in the brain, is there a finite amount of chemicals that can be associated with one person, so that you can only love one woman at the same time? I agree with Blackdragon that it is very hard to love two women at the same time.

    I might be the outlier here but I consider it fairly normal to love multiple women at a time. Granted, there are probably some genetics at play (ADHD, abnormally high sex drive, etc.), but the real key is that I view each relationship as 100% unique. So while I can say I love multiple women at roughly equal intensities, the energy and happiness I feel from each is totally unique. Therefore, I feel no contention or overlap.

    That same principle is the reason I don’t get jealous about my girls sleeping with other men. Ignoring the fact that 90% of the other men are either 1.0s or betas and thus destined to fail, there’s no reason to be jealous of even the highest-value 2.0s out there because they aren’t you. It doesn’t matter if they are taller, better looking, smarter, have better game, or fuck better. They aren’t you, and never will be you, so just keep on improving you being you and no man will ever be your “competition”.

  41. Hmmm, @donnie demarco

    I also love more than one woman deeply, at the same time. Maybe Don Juan deMarco influenced me subliminally, LOL (great moniker, by the way 🙂 )

    In fact, I love all my exes, hold no grudges.

    Maybe it’s because I actually genuinely like women, am involved in a female-centric art, and have lots of female friends (another thing that’s not supposed to be possible.)

    Is supposedly being only able to love one woman at a time related to not liking women outside of sex & dating, perhaps?

     

     

  42. One of the best debate exercises is to argue the other side of your position.

    It’d be interesting to see a post by BD that is pro-monogamy; maybe a post that outlines why one should be monogamous or how to successfully be monogamous.

  43. I do consider BD in the top 1% of the world when it comes to money. I dont know if he has the 470 000$ needed to get there yet, I suspect he does, but if not he will have it soon enough.

    Where does that number come from? Is that net worth or money in savings or what?

    You can help him out get there by telling your friends about this blog, liking his content on facebook, etc.

  44. I also love more than one woman deeply, at the same time.

    I think you guys saying this are not interpreting your own feelings objectively.

    You have three women and you say to me that you love them all identically and the exact same amount. I put a pistol to your head and tell you that you must, right this second, choose one to see every week and the other two you can only see once every 60 day. I know that you instantly will know which of your three women you’ll want to see more often.

    Having deep feelings for multiple women is perfectly doable. I’ve done it many times in the past with MLTR‘s. But deeply loving multiple women all at the same time and in absolutely identical amounts is near impossible, and I think only 2% of men or less are truly capable of that.

    It’d be interesting to see a post by BD that is pro-monogamy; maybe a post that outlines why one should be monogamous or how to successfully be monogamous.

    I wrote a post like that a few years ago, written by my beta male alter-ego, Whitedragon. The problem is that it ended up being a list of points I’ve already refuted over and over again, so it was a boring read, thus I never published it.

    You all already know the “pro’s” of monogamy, because you’ve seen so many men (and some women) attempt (usually unsuccessfully) to defend it on this blog for many years. I would have nothing new to say about it.

  45. I guesss the 470000$ is total net worth NOT just liquid net worth.

    I would be extremely surprised if BD, having had a 6 digit income for decades (or at least 75000$), doesn’t have the 470000$ of total net worth or more it takes to be in the 1% wealthiest people in the world. BD, without revealing any financial detail of your life, can you still confirm wether or not you already passed that threshold?

    This stats could be coming from this website, or another source:
    http://www.globalrichlist.com

  46. I know that you instantly will know which of your three women you’ll want to see more often.

    Totally agreed, and I tried to be clear that they’re not equal. But just as there’s a pecking order among the women I love, there is also a large chasm between the group of women I love vs. the group of women I don’t love.

    Another piece of background I should add is that I have a lot of experience with the “one girlfriend + one side girl” relationship model (from my 1.0 days), so loving two people for two different reasons feels natural to me. I suspect many married people who cheat experience the same duality. I can recall at least one woman in my history where I knew she loved both me and her side guy (and the same was true about my feelings for her and some of my side girls).

  47. BD, without revealing any financial detail of your life, can you still confirm wether or not you already passed that threshold?

    I’m not confirming shit. I don’t reveal personal financial information over the internet to millions of strangers, other than extremely vague generalities. You’re just going to have to come up with your own educated guesses.

    Just by being an American living in America, you’re in the top 4% (or so) of the world already. So it probably isn’t a stretch to say I’m in the top 1% *of the world*. But how I compare to men in Zimbabwe or Cambodia probably doesn’t matter.

    (That’s a fun website you linked to though. I plugged in my income and net worth numbers and it was a nice jolt of happiness to see where I ranked.)

  48. LOL, BD is probably waaaay higher than 470k in net worth. Remember, he recommends that any man past 55 or so have a net worth of at least $1million (irrc); since he’s always walked his talk AND 1 million isn’t enough for truly comfortable annual returns, I can only assume that he’s already beyond 2M and that his net worth goals are somewhere between 3M and 10M (can’t make a narrower estimate, but based on some past articles over at the CJ blog, I’d be surprised if it’s outside that bracket).

    But just as there’s a pecking order among the women I love, there is also a large chasm between the group of women I love vs. the group of women I don’t love.

    Agree. I still haven’t figured out if I really have multiple love boxes or if I’m just misinterpreting “affection” or NRE, and given I’m still young (turning 26 in a few months), the latter seems more likely, maybe. But I don’t see how loving 2+ women automatically implies you love them exactly equally; the definition only requires that the feeling is clearly more than affection and more long-lived than NRE, not that it is exactly equally shared.

  49. Lots of commentary here about whether anyone could go back from the Alpha 2.0 lifestyle, and about non-monogamy being low-drama. I suspect that this is true for those who start clean, but would assume the succes rate is lower for those who try and convert monogamous LTR to OLTR.

    BD – do you have any data – even anecdotal – on this? I went from alpha player to monogamous alpha for 10 years – mostly very low drama. Converted by mutual agreement to OLTR for six months this year for all the right reasons, but it resulted in a miserable six months and more drama than I ever thought possible.

    Very curious to hear of others experiences.

  50. he recommends that any man past 55 or so have a net worth of at least $1million (irrc)

    It’s actually 50. Just my opinion, but I think every man in the Western world (especially Americans) should have a net worth of at least $1 million by the time they hit 50. 50 means you’ve been working for 30 years, which is longer than many men have been alive. If you don’t have $1 million in assets by then (and remember, $1 million isn’t that much money these days thanks to quantitative easing and inflation), then I always tend to wonder what the hell you’ve been doing for 30 years.

    Again, it’s just an opinion I have; it’s not a Alpha 2.0 requirement or anything.

    BD – do you have any data – even anecdotal – on this?

    Yes. Read my comments above.

    I went from alpha player to monogamous alpha for 10 years – mostly very low drama. Converted by mutual agreement to OLTR for six months this year for all the right reasons, but it resulted in a miserable six months and more drama than I ever thought possible.

    I’m very sorry to hear that. Honestly.

    Regardless, you’re just one person, not a statistic. I’m also quite confident that if we examined exactly how you made this transition, I could point out a number of things you did wrong. I have a hard time believing you did everything correctly and it resulted in “six months of more drama than you ever thought possible,” though I could be wrong.

  51. I seldom enjoy reading BD Debates, but this one is really good. Both give out their arguments clearly, practically and both have good points.

    I prefer these debate between Alpha 2.0 mindsets much more than those A1.0/Beta vs A2.0 ones, where BD most often come out as the winner on a topic that we all know is unlosable (at least in our biased eyes, as we are literally all A2.0 practitioners-in-training). We need more of these kinds of A2.0 debate.

  52. deeply loving multiple women all at the same time and in absolutely identical amounts is near impossible, and I think only 2% of men or less are truly capable of that.

    Hi BD,

    I’ve never gotten quantitative about it, but I would say I might be one of the 2 percenters.

    But what I really am is someone determined to join the ranks of the 1 percenters.

    I also find it very easy to retain women of all stripes in their correct priority relative to larger life goals. Funnily enough, I am convinced that actually makes me more attractive to women.

  53. I really don’t see what all the fuss is about guys.

    The fact that 98% of men on the planet are chodes really only requires that you’re 2% better than the rest of them. It’s really not as difficult as you think and doesn’t require having millions in the bank, look like the hulk, drive a ferrari and have a 12 inch penis.

    Just focus on being slightly better than 98% of men and you’ll find everything in your life will get easier. Whatever assumptions you have about chodes and the lifestyle they’re living. Simply do the opposite…

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