first date advice, first online date, online dating advice, meaning of an open relationship, alpha male traits

Physical touch, when used correctly in a dating environment, is a huge attractor on several levels. Not only does it feel good, but it also demonstrates massive confidence and a very strong, sexual, Alpha EFA. Win all over the place. This is commonly called kino, and it’s a critical component of your dating process pre-sex.

Kino differs from sexual escalation, and I’ve noticed a lot of confusion over these two terms. Kino is the act of touching a woman during a first date/meet environment where you have not yet had sex with her and don’t actually plan on having sex with her at that moment. Sexual escalation means exactly what it says. It’s touching a woman with the full intent of moving that touching to sex within a few minutes.

My dating model looks like this (click to zoom image):

fast_sex_model

Under my model, you have a very fast (one hour), very inexpensive first date, followed up quickly by a second date at your place, where you escalate to sex. Once you get good at this model, you’ll be having sex within 3-5 hours of face time. (My average time under this system is about three hours of face time.) It’s the most repeatable and reliable fast model I know of, despite the fact that it’s broken out into two separate “dates,” as opposed to trying to have sex with women on the very first date/meet, which means you’re going to have to spend a lot of time battling ASD (which means either putting in way more numbers, or having much longer first dates).

If you’re following my model, then kino is something you do on the first date, wheras sexual escalation is something you do on the second date.

If I’m on a first date with a woman and I’m touching her in some way (her arms, her hair, her back, whatever), it is not my intention of getting to sex right then and there, or even that evening. Instead, my kino is a way for me to increase attraction, both from the physical aspect (touching) and the mental aspect (demonstrating I’m a confident, outcome independent guy).

There is another type of kino called “incidental kino,” where you touch a woman on a first date/meet but do so seemingly by accident. Examples would be “accidentally” brushing her arm, or leaning over and touching her shoulder, seemingly to better hear what she’s saying.

Personally, I think incidental kino is for pussies. If you want to touch her hands or her hair, just be a man and do it. That’s Alpha. If she gets horrified and slaps your hand away, then fine, but the number of first dates I’ve had is well into the triple digits, and I’ve literally never had anything like this happen. (To be clear, I’m talking about daygame, social circle game, or a first date via online dating. I cannot speak about night game since I have no experience with it.)

The point here is that no matter how aggressive, romantic, or wimpy your touching is on a first date, it should never be your intention of moving to sex via that touching if you’re following the dating model I describe in my books. Before you say it, yes, yes, as always there are unusual exceptions, and sometimes you’ll be on a first date with a woman who is so horny and into you that you won’t have to wait until a second date to have sex, but these are the exceptions, not the rule, and not what you will typically experience (particularly if the woman is over age 33).

Sexual escalation is touching, but is very different than kino. During kino, you’re likely on a first date/meet and in a public place. During sexual escalation, you’re alone with her, at your place or hers, sitting on a couch or a bed. It’s funky time, and sexual escalation is phase one.

Thus, sexual escalation is much more aggressive and sexual. Of course if she says no you have to stop, but if she doesn’t, you proceed until you’re having sex.

Many guys make the mistake of mixing these two things up. For example, lots of guys (usually Alphas) actually engage in sexual escalation with a woman on a first date, in public, without any verification if she’s attracted yet, and without verifying any logistics as to whether or not she can actually have sex in the next hour, based on her logistical and time constraints.

This is stupid and will simply result in lots of first dates that go nowhere. You’ll text her the next day, she won’t respond, and you’ll never hear from her again. You were too much of a player. This is one of the many reasons why I give the advice of never kissing a woman on a first date (unless you know for 100% sure you’re going to have sex on that first date). It kills sexual tension and spikes buyer’s remorse (post-date ASD), reducing the odds that you’ll ever see her again.

Another example, and one that’s more common, are guys (usually betas) who have an interested woman, alone at their house, sitting on their bed or couch, and they (the guys) engage in kino instead of sexual escalation. They touch her, but do so playfully instead of sexually. Maybe they kiss her a little bit, but that’s it. They’re too scared to sexually escalate, no sex occurs, and eventually the woman, who probably wanted to have sex (or at least get more sexual than playful kino) leaves, confused and often turned off.

Don’t mix these two things up! Kino is what you do on the first date and sexual escalation is what you do on the second date, assuming you’re both in a private, safe place on that second date. (Otherwise, you’re going to sadly have to go for sex on the third date.) Mixing these two things up is going to result in lots of wasted time for you in your dating life. Don’t do it.

36 Comments on “The Difference Between Kino and Sexual Escalation

  1. Another insightful post BD. Thanks a lot!

    I have been applying your two-date-model for a while and completely agree on how easier it is to escalate to sex on second dates without much LMR. In fact 90% of the girls who come out on second dates with me lead into sex.

    My problem is 50% of the girls who go out on first dates with me never see me again afterwards. I know it’s a number game and I can’t expect them all to like me. But a large number of them show a lot of interests on first dates. Some even asked me where I lived, who I lived with, told me they have no other plans for the evening, or even went in and kiss me at the end. Then they just ignored my texts the next day. This makes me think of the “window escalation” concept from Chase Amante. He advises to move fast if the window is open to avoid girls going into auto-rejection.

    I don’t have any doubts on your model. Yet should I make exceptions and pull girls who show strong interests on the first dates?

  2. Many guys make the mistake of mixing these two things up. For example, lots of guys (usually Alphas) actually engage in sexual escalation with a woman on a first date, in public, without any verification if she’s attracted yet, and without verifying any logistics as to whether or not she can actually have sex in the next hour, based on her logistical and time constraints.

    *Raises hand*

    I just like getting that shit out of the way right out of the gate. If you are a chick and you are over 25, then I’m sorry you should know what you want. Hell most college chicks have had sex with 20-30 people by their junior year so should we really be withholding anything? I kino like crazy on a first date and by the end of it I’m making power moves and trying to move to a sex location (usually her place or one of our cars lol). Unless I’m told to back off, I always kiss after the first date and it usually is followed up by some sort of sexual escalation. This is all very playful, of course.

    Now I HAVE been experimenting with waiting a bit, and its actually increased my sex drive a bit. I’m more a thrill of the hunt person than a pleasure of sex person, but when I get teased with possible sex, I get really aroused.

    But then again I break BD’s rules by establishing tons of rapport before the first date, this way when the first date actually takes place its like we are already dating. For example, there are some cases where we will be sexting before the first date. That’s how much rapport I build before I do any physical stuff.

  3. This makes me think of the “window escalation” concept from Chase Amante. He advises to move fast if the window is open to avoid girls going into auto-rejection.

    I know from previous articles BD has referenced Chase Amante and he has a lot of respect for Chase’s system.  I too have encountered these women who’s “buying temperature” appeared to be very high on the first date and if I didn’t close the deal with them or “hit the open windows” as Chase says, they were lost for good.

    I will be interested to hear BD’s take on this, but in my opinion it really comes down to calibrating your approach for each woman and situation.  Many women won’t be this ready to go and the two date model will fit them perfectly.  Others (especially single moms who are “childless” for the evening) are more open to having sex on a first date, simply because their schedules are so hectic and getting together again in a couple of days isn’t possible.

    BD, I think a lot of your readers, myself included, would love for you to write an article on how to read those situations/exceptions where you would go for first date sex.

  4. Another example, and one that’s more common, are guys (usually betas) who have an interested woman, alone at their house, sitting on their bed or couch, and they (the guys) engage in kino instead of sexual escalation. They touch her, but do so playfully instead of sexually. Maybe they kiss her a little bit, but that’s it. They’re too scared to sexually escalate, no sex occurs, and eventually the woman, who probably wanted to have sex (or at least get more sexual than playful kino) leaves, confused and often turned off.

    I did this due to shyness in my 20s. In my 30s, with more experience with women, I am still doing it for new reasons. Basically, I find tantalizing and making them ask for it explicitly very enjoyable.

    It’s not only an expression of my disdain of ASD. It started like that (“I’ll teach you a lesson, darned ASD!!“) but I realized that insisting on kino or even insistent but low-level sexual escalation moves without never going ahead makes them hornier and hornier, especially in the mental sense (which is what satisfies me more).

    And waiting for the 3rd, 4th, 5th date is not a problem for me. In my experience, if they’d consent to sex, they’ll end up asking for it openly after some time (and like it and you way more).

    @photoguy

    I too have encountered these women who’s “buying temperature” appeared to be very high on the first date and if I didn’t close the deal with them or “hit the open windows” as Chase says, they were lost for good.

    That’s a mere estrus thing, a zoo thing if we will. I don’t think I want anything to do with those women. Women I like have their buying temperature rise with days and weeks, even if it will be a single lay.

  5. For example, lots of guys (usually Alphas) actually engage in sexual escalation with a woman on a first date, in public, without any verification if she’s attracted yet, and without verifying any logistics as to whether or not she can actually have sex in the next hour, based on her logistical and time constraints.

    Holy shit, this has happened to me quite some times.

    This is stupid and will simply result in lots of first dates that go nowhere. You’ll text her the next day, she won’t respond, and you’ll never hear from her again.

    That’s basically what has happened to me all these times. with the only difference being that they had to be at least somewhat friendly since we were on the same social circle, but I never got to land a date with them again.

    Two questions about those cases: 1) Generally, when you get sexual with a woman, if word gets around (and, in a social circle setting, it often does) it is good pre-selection for you. At our specific discussed scenario, does it work the same way, the opposite (de-selection shall we say) or has no effect at all? 2) Any chance to still fuck those girls after all this?

    BD, I think a lot of your readers, myself included, would love for you to write an article on how to read those situations/exceptions where you would go for first date sex.

    I agree.

    I did this due to shyness in my 20s. In my 30s, with more experience with women, I am still doing it for new reasons. Basically, I find tantalizing and making them ask for it explicitly very enjoyable.

    It’s not only an expression of my disdain of ASD. It started like that (“I’ll teach you a lesson, darned ASD!!“) but I realized hat insisting on kino or even insistent but low-level sexual escalation moves without never going ahead makes them hornier and hornier, especially in the mental sense (which is what satisfies me more).

    And waiting for the 3rd, 4th, 5th date is not a problem for me. In my experience, if they’d consent to sex, they’ll end up asking for it openly after some time (and like it and you way more).

    Used to have the same mentality, realized that it was based on low self esteem problems (some of which are still here). Seeking validation more than sex, ESPECIALLY when you don’t have nearly as much sex as you want, is, in my opinion and experience, not only unhealthy but also counterefficient. As Sun Tzu said: strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory, tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat. Be careful with that.

     

  6. Hello, I’m a total beginner, great blog, glad I found it.

    But I’m confused and have a few questions.

    Blackdragon you say in your podcast  “lean back, don’t lean forward because it shows neediness”. But how can I touch her then? I have to lean forward to touch the girl. And you say I should do lots of kino so I must constantly lean forward in order to touch her. But at the same time lean back??? A human’s arms aren’t like 6 feet long. I don’t get it yet. The only option is to sit right next to her. But most women want to sit face to face on the first date. Or do you say that she has to lean forward towards YOU so that you can touch her? Like “Hey sweetie, come sit on my lap” Just kidding but you get my point, right?

    And what do you say to end the date after one hour? Some girls were disappointed that I didn’t take more time off my schedule for the date like they did, they asked me why I have to go so soon. I didn’t want to lie and I know you also don’t lie, so I said blatantly I have another date scheduled. Both times the girl was totally turned off and I never heard of her again. How do you end the first date? What do you tell her?

    And the last question could also be an idea for a new blog post: How do you setup an Alpha 2.0 facebook account for comfort bombardment? I know pictures with other women are important for your social proof, BUT what kind of pictures? Let me guess. FBs are not featured on your pictures, MLTRs are maybe featured, OLTR yes. But you could be sending wrong signals. Do you have kiss pictures, yes or no? They might turn off new women who aren’t locked in because they think “oh what a player, he has a girlfriend and is going on a date with me and cheat on her and wants to have me in his harem, I’m not that kinda girl”. Youger women might be okay with that but older ones? Or set up 2 different profiles targeted to younger women (player vibe, other women in pictures) and to older women (provider vibe, no other women in pictures)?

    And what about signals towards your own women who are featured on your pictures? Maybe she’s an MLTR and then you upload a picture of both of you and she thinks it’s an upgrade to a higher status or exclusive relationship when in reality it’s not. Or your other MLTRs are seeing the picture and begin stalking each other. Seems pretty messy.

    Or do you just have no women on your pictures? Or completely random women that you ask on the street for pictures? Lots of questions for Blackdragon, but everyone can also answer me who knows good techniques.

     

  7. My problem is 50% of the girls who go out on first dates with me never see me again afterwards. I know it’s a number game and I can’t expect them all to like me. But a large number of them show a lot of interests on first dates. Some even asked me where I lived, who I lived with, told me they have no other plans for the evening, or even went in and kiss me at the end. Then they just ignored my texts the next day.

    1. Just because a woman shows clear interest on a first date doesn’t means she want’s your cock inside her that evening. I’m serious. This is really, really important, and a lot of men don’t understand this. Before I mastered this system, I had had many women show massive interest in me on first dates only to get upset when I sexually escalated, and hundreds of other men I’ve communicated with have had the same problem.

    So don’t think that just because she’s got great body language and is asking where you live and stuff means that she wants you to take her to your place and fuck her right now. Odds are she is attracted to you but doesn’t want to fuck you yet. (Though yes, there are always exceptions.)

    2. Lots of first dates with women vanishing afterwards means you are likely demonstrating too much player and need to read this article.

    3. Remember that a strong percentage of women will vanish after the first date even if you are a master at this stuff, due to factors completely outside of your control (you weren’t her type, she has a boyfriend, someone else fucked her first, etc), EVEN if she shows great interest on the first date.

    4. Remember that women are trained by society to be polite and nice during events like first dates. This can often be misconstrued as sexual interest, particularly when the woman is more socially skilled. I’ve been a victim of this myself.

    I know from previous articles BD has referenced Chase Amante and he has a lot of respect for Chase’s system.  I too have encountered these women who’s “buying temperature” appeared to be very high on the first date and if I didn’t close the deal with them or “hit the open windows” as Chase says, they were lost for good.

    Absolutely. As I mentioned in the article, this does happen sometimes, and it’s happened to me (buying temperature was very high on the first date soI just went right to sex without bothering with a second date), particularly if the woman is under the age of 23 (VYW have very low ASD). It’s still the exception to the rule (unless you exclusively date women under the age of 23).

    BD, I think a lot of your readers, myself included, would love for you to write an article on how to read those situations/exceptions where you would go for first date sex.

    Okay. I’ll add it to the topic list.

    Two questions about those cases: 1) Generally, when you get sexual with a woman, if word gets around (and, in a social circle setting, it often does) it is good pre-selection for you. At our specific discussed scenario, does it work the same way, the opposite (de-selection shall we say) or has no effect at all?

    That depends on your social circle, particularly the average age of women in your social circle. If they’re 20 year-olds, it won’t matter at all and might even help you. If they’re 30 year-olds, it will harm you.

    Any chance to still fuck those girls after all this?

    Extremely unlikely. I have literally never had sex with a woman after a first date where she vanished on me. In a social circle scenario, this will likely end up as friend zone, so I would not hang out with a woman in a social circle setting after a first (or second) date where I tried to have sex with her and she said no. But that’s me; I never do friend zone, for this reason and this.

  8. Hello, I’m a total beginner, great blog, glad I found it.

    But I’m confused and have a few questions.

    Blackdragon you say in your podcast “lean back, don’t lean forward because it shows neediness”. But how can I touch her then? I have to lean forward to touch the girl. And you say I should do lots of kino so I must constantly lean forward in order to touch her. But at the same time lean back??? A human’s arms aren’t like 6 feet long. I don’t get it yet. The only option is to sit right next to her. But most women want to sit face to face on the first date. Or do you say that she has to lean forward towards YOU so that you can touch her? Like “Hey sweetie, come sit on my lap” Just kidding but you get my point, right?

    And what do you say to end the date after one hour? Some girls were disappointed that I didn’t take more time off my schedule for the date like they did, they asked me why I have to go so soon. I didn’t want to lie and I know you also don’t lie, so I said blatantly I have another date scheduled. Both times the girl was totally turned off and I never heard of her again. How do you end the first date? What do you tell her?

    And the last question could also be an idea for a new blog post: How do you setup an Alpha 2.0 facebook account for comfort bombardment? I know pictures with other women are important for your social proof, BUT what kind of pictures? Let me guess. FBs are not featured on your pictures, MLTRs are maybe featured, OLTR yes. But you could be sending wrong signals. Do you have kiss pictures, yes or no? They might turn off new women who aren’t locked in because they think “oh what a player, he has a girlfriend and is going on a date with me and cheat on her and wants to have me in his harem, I’m not that kinda girl”. Youger women might be okay with that but older ones? Or set up 2 different fb profiles, one targeted to younger women (player vibe, other women in pictures) and the other to older women (provider vibe, no other women in pictures)?

    And what about signals towards your OWN women who are featured on your pictures? Maybe she’s an MLTR and then you upload a picture of both of you and she thinks it’s an upgrade to a higher status or even exclusive relationship when in reality it’s not. Or your other MLTRs are seeing the picture and begin stalking each other. Seems pretty messy.

    Or do you just have no women on your pictures? Or completely random women that you ask on the street for pictures? Lots of questions for Blackdragon, but everyone can also answer me who knows good techniques.

  9.  <blockquote>“lean back, don’t lean forward because it shows neediness”. But how can I touch her then? </blockquote> Lean back most of the time, say something funny, reach in and touch her knee or elbow. If her hair falls in front of her face, lean in and sweep it away, then go back to leaning back. <blockquote> And you say I should do lots of kino so I must constantly lean forward in order to touch her. But at the same time lean back??? </blockquote> Get up, use the bathroom, touch her shoulder on the way there or the way back. You should be sitting next to her. BD doesn’t drink but if you do sitting next to them at a bar is perfect. You can be leaning back and still be within touching distance of a knee. <blockquote>The only option is to sit right next to her.</blockquote> exactly <blockquote> But most women want to sit face to face on the first date.</blockquote> So? don’t do this. It is bad. If you’re sitting face to face you are already handicapping yourself.  <blockquote>Or do you say that she has to lean forward towards YOU so that you can touch her? Like “Hey sweetie, come sit on my lap” Just kidding but you get my point, right?</blockquote> If you touch her a few times and she doesn’t reciprocate, she’s probably not into you. If a girl likes you, she will find an excuse to touch you. 

     

    <blockquote>And what do you say to end the date after one hour? Some girls were disappointed that I didn’t take more time off my schedule for the date like they did, they asked me why I have to go so soon. </blockquote> ‘This was fun but I have some stuff I need to do. Let’s do it again sometime.’ There’s not lying and then there’s being stupid, your answer was the latter. 

  10. On first date sex:

    Although I have had sex on the first date in the past (like with my current girlfriend), I always prefer to wait till the second date because I want to get to know the girl and make sure she’s not some social justice psycho who’s going to falsely accuse me of rape just because I didn’t employ autistic verbal procedures in the bedroom.

    I’ve gotten pretty good at seeing the red flags (blue hair, excessive use of the word “consent” and other social justice buzzwords, a desire to talk about politics on the date, etc…).

    On kissing:

    I never kiss a woman unless we’re going to be having sex within the next few minutes. I only kiss just before sex, during sex, and shortly after sex while we’re still naked in bed together. Then I kiss her again only if we’re going to be having sex in the next few minutes or seconds again. If not, I never kiss her again until it’s time to have sex again.

    Children and teenagers have sexless kissing or long durations of “making out.” Adults connect kissing on the lips with sex. If there’s no sex, there’s no kissing (barring the occasional hello or goodbye kiss, and even that is acceptable only after it’s established that you are regularly sleeping together).

    If you’re ready to be kissed, you’re ready for sex. If you’re not, you’re not. That is what distinguishes adult kissing from childish kissing.

     

     

  11. @Beginner:

    they asked me why I have to go so soon. I didn’t want to lie and I know you also don’t lie, so I said blatantly I have another date scheduled.

    Facepalm! Wow! This has to be satire!

    Both times the girl was totally turned off and I never heard of her again.

    You don’t say!

    How do you end the first date? What do you tell her?

    Tell her at the beginning of the date that you only have a specific time frame.

    And the last question could also be an idea for a new blog post: How do you setup an Alpha 2.0 facebook account for comfort bombardment?

    BD will disagree with me here, but you really shouldn’t have a Facebook, unless, like BD, you don’t value your privacy. Also, if you are someone else’s employee and you value future employment opportunities, I would strongly urge you to delete your Facebook or keep it as blue pill and G rated as possible. In all honesty though, things like Facebook are a worthless waste of time, even without the gross, morally reprehensible, illegal, and Unconstitutional privacy violations. It’s just a way for society to keep tabs on you and make sure you’re following societal programming (the Catholic Church confessional served this function before, now it’s Facebook). Fuck Zuckerberg! Don’t play society’s game!

     

  12. Blackdragon you say in your podcast “lean back, don’t lean forward because it shows neediness”. But how can I touch her then? I have to lean forward to touch the girl. And you say I should do lots of kino so I must constantly lean forward in order to touch her.

    Exactly. You lean forward, do your kino, then pull back and lean back. Push-pull.

    The rest of your questions are too many and too off-topic for me to address.

    I always prefer to wait till the second date because I want to get to know the girl and make sure she’s not some social justice psycho who’s going to falsely accuse me of rape just because I didn’t employ autistic verbal procedures in the bedroom.

    1. That’s insane, 2% rule stuff. I can’t believe you’d actually waste your time worrying about this.

    2. You won’t get a false rape accusation if you heed this advice, all of which my dating system already has in place.

    I’ve had very fast sex with a huge number of women on in one of the most left-wing cities in North America, and I’ve never had a problem.

    For all you Facebook fans out there:

    There is no privacy any more, with or without Facebook.

    Get used to it.

  13. @Vincent:

    But a large number of them show a lot of interests on first dates. Some even asked me where I lived, who I lived with, told me they have no other plans for the evening,

    They were telling you that they want to have sex now. But you rejected them, which led to their humiliation, and thus their lack of desire to ever see you again.

    or even went in and kiss me at the end.

    This is bad. You should never kiss a girl at the end of a date right before saying goodbye. That’s a 1950s beta boyfriend behavior.

    Then they just ignored my texts the next day.

    Well yeah, you rejected them. They don’t want to be humiliated further.

    This makes me think of the “window escalation” concept from Chase Amante. He advises to move fast if the window is open to avoid girls going into auto-rejection.

    You were playing the 1950s boyfriend game, which is why they weren’t interested.

    Yet should I make exceptions and pull girls who show strong interests on the first dates?

    If you’ve properly screened them for sanity AND they obviously want to fuck you right then and there, then yes you should fuck them. I should think that’s obvious!

     

  14. 1. That’s insane, 2% rule stuff.

    It really is. I wish more would understand this. I’ve had sex with Laci Green type feminist asshole chicks who are really just normal chicks when you develop enough rapport with them. And when they are “allowed” to be horny, they go crazy.

    So in my experience, its just smoke and mirrors. Maybe its different in different places, but that’s how it is with me.

    You literally have a better chance of getting raped in your sleep by a chick who just wants to have sex with you raw so they can have a kid so they can child support rape you later.

    False rape accusations aren’t as common as divorce and child support rape.

  15. Nice article.  I’ve never mixed the two up, but in the beginning, and sometimes even now after 6 months of practice with seduction, I find it very difficult to Kino.  It’s that fear of rejection mixed with societal programming that gets in my head… “It’s wrong to touch someone without their explicit consent” bullshit.  Very hard to get past for me.  It really takes a lot of practice to become comfortable with it.

    On the other hand, sexual escalation I’ve never really had a problem with.  Once a woman has shown interest and agrees to come over to my place, I am far more comfortable with touching and escalating to sex.

    Side note; It’s fun to see the difference between the “pleasure of sex” guys and the “thrill of the hunt” guys in the comments.  I often wonder if the Thrill dudes have a difficult time pleasing women in bed…

  16. I use kino as the initial means to communicate that I’m sexually interested in a girl.

    Before I got the hang of flirting with kino, I’d sometimes go in to kiss a girl, only to have her pull back, with a look of shock on her face like she didn’t see a kiss coming.

    I run a very similar two-date model to BD and none of the girls end up trying to friend zone me. I’ll either never hear from them after a first date or they’re up for second, and we have sex.

    For me, kino sends a very clear message of what I’m after and lets the girl know sexual escalation is coming.

    There’s a good chance lack of kino was the first mistake her friend-zone orbiters made.

     

     

  17. I run a very similar two-date model to BD and none of the girls end up trying to friend zone me. I’ll either never hear from them after a first date or they’re up for second, and we have sex.

    Yeah I think chicks instinctively know this as well, like they know they will be horny on that second date so they either want to have sex or they will go silent/shoot you down. Although if they don’t go radio silent it usually means you can hit them back up weeks or months later to see if they are horny. At least that’s what happens to me.

  18. @Blackdragon

    Thanks a lot for your response. What you said made me think of my target market, which is very young woman ranging from 18-21 year old (I live in Melbourne which is full of young students). Besides, I only do daygame, which includes the initial approach that makes first date the second meet. This might be a tad different from online game, since first date is usually the first time you meet the girl.

    Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but do you think there’s any difference in the dating model that I should make due to these factors?

    Really looking forward to hearing from you. I have just reached the stage of consistently getting lots of day 2s from daygame, thus having a dating model to follow will be extremely helpful.

  19. @Jack Outside the Box

    Thanks for your response man. Yet I think you misunderstood me. I don’t kiss girls at the end of the first date, or during the first date for that matter. However some girls show strong interest and go in for the kiss themselves after I give them a goodbye hug.

    It seems to be obvious that I should bring them home and fuck them. Yet it is opposed to BD’s model. That was the reason I commented and asked for his advise at the first place. More than anyone I know LMR is a bitch, and it can backfire anytime causing her to vanish out of my life forever.

  20. What you said made me think of my target market, which is very young woman ranging from 18-21 year old (I live in Melbourne which is full of young students). Besides, I only do daygame, which includes the initial approach that makes first date the second meet. This might be a tad different from online game, since first date is usually the first time you meet the girl.

    Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but do you think there’s any difference in the dating model that I should make due to these factors?

    The dating model applies directly to daygame. The only issue is how long the first meet was. If it was 5 minutes, then it doesn’t count as the first date. If it was some real time and conversation, like 25 minutes or more, then it does.

    You don’t have to change the model if they’re under age 23; it’s just much easier because there’s so much less ASD with these women, and yes, you can push for first-date sex more often with these women without negative effects (if the first meet didn’t count as the first date), but not every time.

  21. @Blackdragon

    Then I’m looking forward to your post on how to read the first date situation to push for first date sex then.

    I have one last question regarding first dates. You advise to keep them short, usually around an hour. However, there have been some girls who seemed sad and disappointed when they were having a good time on the date and I said I had to go. They ended up vanishing or being cold on second date. How do I communicate this with the girl in the right way and end the date without making her feel like I reject her?

  22. You advise to keep them short, usually around an hour. However, there have been some girls who seemed sad and disappointed when they were having a good time on the date and I said I had to go.

    It doesn’t matter what women like. It only matters what gets them to sex as quickly as possible. Read this.

    They ended up vanishing or being cold on second date. How do I communicate this with the girl in the right way and end the date without making her feel like I reject her?

    At about 50 minutes, check your watch or your phone and say, “So let’s wrap this up in about, I don’t know 15 minutes?” and ask it like a question. She’ll agree, then keep right on going. I’ve never had a problem doing this with a staggering number of women.

  23. Great post and excellent discussion. I agree and rarely proceed to sex on a first date, for all the reasons BD stated. However, Jack has a good point about single moms. Often, they have one or two free nights when the kids are with their dad, and then unavailable for the next two weeks. She may very well want to have sex that night because it’s the one night she has available and she is out specifically for that reason. If you miss that window, you have missed it and likely won’t get another shot. This tends to be more with 35+ women.

    Regarding kissing, oh if only I knew this lesson a while back! I met a very lovely girl through a friend. We made out like teenagers on the first date. What I didn’t know was that was her MO. Eight dates and a huge amount of money and frustration later, we were still at the making out like 16 year olds stage. So then, foolishly, I tried to discuss and resolve the issue in a logical, well reasoned male manner. Ha! You can guess how that went. Since we are in the same social circle, I’ve now watched Susie sweet lips repeat the same pattern with other guys. They hang around for a month or two and are then gone. I guess they were not “gentlemen” either;).

  24. @BD:

    1. That’s insane, 2% rule stuff. I can’t believe you’d actually waste your time worrying about this.

    Remember that conversation that Liam Neeson has with his daughter at the beginning of Taken? He’s giving her ridiculous “2% rule” crap and she makes fun of him, saying his job has made him paranoid. He responds by saying, “It’s made me more aware.”

    I’m glad I’m retired, because I’ve seen some shit.

    2. You won’t get a false rape accusation if you heed this advice, all of which my dating system already has in place.

    Um, BD? Did you read your own advice from the very article that you just linked to? To avoid a false rape accusation, You say:

    1. Don’t do SNLs. Go for second-date sex instead.

    You also say this:

    I hate to say this, but a false rape accusation (FRA) is more likely if you do SNLs (one-date-lays) than if you have sex on the second date.

    I was precisely following your advice and agreeing with you dude! LOL!

     

  25. @Joelsuf:

    It really is. I wish more would understand this. I’ve had sex with Laci Green type feminist asshole chicks

    It amazes me that such cunts would actually turn you on.

    who are really just normal chicks when you develop enough rapport with them. And when they are “allowed” to be horny, they go crazy.

    Although I do have standards when it comes to physical looks (as I’ve mentioned before), the woman’s personality is my ultimate boner test. Her beliefs, especially about sex, sexual relations, men and women dynamics, etc… are what mostly do it for me, hence my love for sex-positive and horny little minxes.

    By contrast, arrogant, man-hating, feminazis just turn me off royally. Also, there is a desire in me to punish these women for their man-hating beliefs, even in my own small way. I’ve withheld sex from some of these future cat owners before, much to their visible frustration.

    I really wish men would develop a guy code that we won’t sleep with feminists. As long as we give them sex and other male attention, their unacceptable beliefs cost them nothing. I precisely want to force them to pay a price for this social justice garbage in the form of involuntary celibacy, but for this to work, enough men would have to join me.

    When being a social justice psychotic starts becoming synonymous with involuntary celibacy and/or compulsory (by virtue of a lack of options) lesbian communes, normal girls will think twice before joining the feminist train.

    By sleeping with these types of girls and giving them any male affection or attention, you are part of the problem.

    You literally have a better chance of getting raped in your sleep by a chick who just wants to have sex with you raw so they can have a kid so they can child support rape you later.

    This is nonsense and completely untrue. You have a much better chance of getting an FRA than getting “raped in your sleep.”

    False rape accusations aren’t as common as divorce and child support rape.

    Correct. Getting ass raped in family court is way more common. But false rape accusations are more common than you think.

    http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2016/11/speaking-up-for-due-process-in-college.html

     

     

     

  26. @Vincent:

    Thanks for your response man. Yet I think you misunderstood me. I don’t kiss girls at the end of the first date, or during the first date for that matter. However some girls show strong interest and go in for the kiss themselves after I give them a goodbye hug.

    Then stop giving these girls goodbye hugs.

    It seems to be obvious that I should bring them home and fuck them. Yet it is opposed to BD’s model.

    BD isn’t opposed to fucking on the first date in principle. He has just had experience with women (mostly of the older generation) who refuse to fuck on the first date because it violates their programming. So he has learned not to push it and plan on second date sex instead, as cultural brainwashing can be overwhelming on this issue, so it’s best not to fight it.

    But dude, when the girl is clearly dripping wet and wanting you to fuck her ASAP, you don’t invoke BD’s model to stop you, as that would violate that model’s purposes. Assuming you’ve screened her for sanity, just fuck her if she clearly wants to be fucked!

    More than anyone I know LMR is a bitch, and it can backfire anytime causing her to vanish out of my life forever.

    Not when she is clearly the aggressor and more eager than you.

     

  27. @Harry:

    Jack has a good point about single moms.

    I never mentioned anything about single moms.

    Regarding kissing, oh if only I knew this lesson a while back! I met a very lovely girl through a friend. We made out like teenagers on the first date.

    Yup, that was a mistake. Although I’m not a nightclub guy, I know the nightclub rules imparted by serious players. If you don’t kiss her, you may go home with her. If you do kiss her and make out with her on the dance floor in front of her friends, she won’t want to come home with you because she doesn’t want to look like a “slut.” Thus, kissing her in public effectively sabotages your chances at getting to sex.

    I know your example wasn’t nightclub related, but this applies everywhere. Kissing in public before you’ve even had sex with her puts you either in the “teenage kissing buddy zone” or “serious traditional boyfriend zone,” otherwise known as the “make him wait six months while she’s fucking other guys in the meantime zone.” Kiss her only when you’re both ready for sex, during sex, and shortly after. Never at any other time.

    What I didn’t know was that was her MO. Eight dates and a huge amount of money and frustration later,

    So you’re willing to spend money on her (bad) and go on sexless dates passed date 4 (very bad).

    we were still at the making out like 16 year olds stage. So then, foolishly, I tried to discuss and resolve the issue in a logical, well reasoned male manner. Ha! You can guess how that went. Since we are in the same social circle, I’ve now watched Susie sweet lips repeat the same pattern with other guys. They hang around for a month or two and are then gone. I guess they were not “gentlemen” either;).

    Yeah, and I bet you she’s fucking other men discreetly while making out with her kissing buddies publicly. That’s what separates the men from the boys (in terms of how they treat kissing). Well, at least you learned.

     

  28. I was precisely following your advice and agreeing with you dude! LOL!

    That’s exactly my point. You’ve minimized the odds of a false rape accusation well below the 2% Rule, and you’re still terrified of it. Stupid.

  29. That’s exactly my point. You’ve minimized the odds of a false rape accusation well below the 2% Rule, and you’re still terrified of it. Stupid.

    Easy there partner! You are massively exaggerating my feelings. I’m not “terrified” of it. I’m simply vigilant and I take the proper precautions. If I were terrified, I’d be a MGTOW pussy, bragging to everyone about my celibacy and laughing at the supposed stupidity of people who aren’t virgins (like they do on MGTOW forums). I’ve interacted with beta losers who really are terrified of women. That’s not me. I was simply pointing out that I usually prefer to wait to the second date (as per your FRA prevention advice) in order to get to know the girl and screen her for sanity. That’s all I was saying.

     

     

  30. Watched this guy on shark tank and thought he was rather impressive and uncompromising, would this entrepreneur be an example of outcome independence during a business event?

  31. would this entrepreneur be an example of outcome independence during a business event?

    Somewhat.

  32. Hey BD,

    One problem that I often run into when I kino is that some girls (especially the Asians born and raised in Asia) have literally no sexual experience at all, and thus I’m not sure what I should/ can talk about during the sex talk phase.

    And if I do present interesting, DHV filled stories, what do I do if the girl continues to be shy and uncomfortable about sex talk?

    Forget about her and move on? Or adjust my methods?

  33. One problem that I often run into when I kino is that some girls (especially the Asians born and raised in Asia) have literally no sexual experience at all, and thus I’m not sure what I should/ can talk about during the sex talk phase.

    If she’s a virgin, obviously you can’t talk about sex. So that’s fine. But only if she’s literally a virgin.

    And if I do present interesting, DHV filled stories, what do I do if the girl continues to be shy and uncomfortable about sex talk?

    Don’t worry about the sex talk aspect, but proceed, and do everything else correctly.

  34. <i>This is one of the many reasons why I give the advice of never kissing a woman on a first date </i>

     

    Interesting.  Roosh says the opposite – *always* kiss on the first date.

    I have often followed his advice, but then a high rate of no callbacks after the kissing on the first date..

    I’m confused about this.  It is possible that Roosh’s first date is 2-3 hours, while yours is just one hour, so that may be an important detail.  But still……… what to do?  Getting enough datapoints on what works best for me could take years.

     

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