first date advice, first online date, online dating advice, meaning of an open relationship, alpha male traits

When someone hears the word “married,” they automatically assume it’s the standard type of marriage pushed by Societal Programming, which I’ve always called TMM (traditional monogamous marriage), a term I listed in my glossary long ago.

To be fair, some form of TMM usually is what people are talking about. However, more and more people are quietly, and often secretly, using other types of marriage more conducive to financial security and long-term, consistent happiness.

That’s the problem with the word “marriage.” It isn’t specific enough. Today I’m going to show you several types of marriages, all of which are reasonably common these days; more so than you might expect. If this were the 1950’s, there would only be one type of marriage. Today, in our world of sky-high divorce rates, sky-high taxes, devalued currencies, intrusive laws, divorce rape, high technology, more options for sex (particularly via online dating), and weaker economies, there are many types of marriages, not just the one your mom has been nagging out you about.

One of these is the OLTR Marriage, something I’ve been talking about wanting to do for at least five years, going all the way back to 2012 when I wrote this article which gave some specific examples of how I would go about structuring such relationship.

Three years ago, I wrote this article defending the idea that most men (including me) want to move in with a woman in their older years. There are some men over 40 who never want to move in with a woman and consider the idea insane. That’s great, but these men are the exception to the rule, even within the Alpha Male/player/PUA world. Most guys, even players and former players, do indeed want to settle down (in some form or fashion) once they climb over age 35 or so.

Two years ago, I also wrote this article about exactly how to move in with a woman, and this article answering the objections men had for an OLTR Marriage, where I went into detail about how an OLTR Marriage isn’t nearly as bad of a thing as some men fear.

I’ve been talking about OLTR Marriage for a very long time; those are just a few of the articles I’ve written about this topic. Recently, when mentioned I was looking at getting an engagement ring for my OLTR, a few low-reading-comprehension idiots on various web sites ignored all of this writing and analysis, and immediately assumed that I was getting monogamous, traditionally married, going back on everything I’ve ever said about traditional marriage, and was becoming a pussywhipped beta. Fortunately, most of you are not that stupid, and actually know how to read, and understood that buying a woman a ring and calling it an engagement ring can mean anything you want it to mean.

If course I will never do any of those above items, since, you know, I’ve been talking about wanting to attempt a live-in OLTR Marriage for at least five years now. (I could now go off on a tangent about how I am the most ideologically consistent content provider in the entire manosphere/PUA world, in terms of walking my talk over the past near-decade, how none of my opinions on any of these topics have changed, and how it’s a little insulting that anyone would think otherwise. But I’m full of sweetness and love, so I’ll spare you that today.)

The most important thing to remember is that the word “marriage,” and any other charged Societal Programming word surrounding it (like engagement, wedding, vows, bachelor party, honeymoon, etc) can mean whatever you want them to mean. They do not have to mean the TMM type of marriage society is constantly pressuring you to have.

Here’s exactly what I mean.

The Nine Types of Marriage

There are many aspects to both TMM and OLTR Marriages, including the types of sex allowed (monogamy, open, semi-open, swinging, threesomes, etc), the financial structure, the legal structure, the living arrangements, and so on. I cover all of those aspects in my open marriage ebook, and I’ll have much more to say about these things later, but today I’m going to focus only on the legal structure of these different types of marriages. There are about nine different ways you can do it, and I’ll describe each.

Before I do, it’s time for another one of my happy-fun disclaimers:

Happy-Fun Disclaimer: I am not an attorney, have no legal expertise whatsoever, and you should not take any legal advice from me, which I am not giving. Every city, state/province, and country has massively different laws regarding marriage and co-habitation with a woman. You must check with a local attorney before doing ANYTHING like moving in with a woman, married or not.

That’s the first step before moving in with any woman under any conditions (married or not). As I described in my article on how to move in with a woman, you MUST consult with an attorney in your local city to make sure you understand all the laws regarding:

  • Co-habitation
  • Palimony
  • Common law marriage
  • “Marriage like” relationships
  • Tenant/landlord applications to anyone living with you

If you don’t do this before moving in with a woman (again, married or not), then not only are you a reckless idiot, but nothing I can tell you below (or anywhere else) can help you, since it may or may not apply where you live.

With that in mind, listed below are the nine legal structures under which you can marry a woman. Again, not all of them apply to all cities, but it will give you a good overview. I will start with the worst one of them all.

1. Civil License, No Prenup

This the worst and most common marriage option. Under this option, you both get legally married via a working judge by signing something called a civil marriage license. This is a horrible and deadly three-way, binding, legal contract between you, her, and big government. It instantly combines all your finances (all of your debts, assets, and leases) with her finances, with no legal division whatsoever. She owns 50% of your stuff and you own 50% of hers, regardless of anything else. Her debts become your debts, and creditors and the government can go after you for her past loans, and even past-due taxes, and there’s nothing you can do about it.

When you get divorced (because statistically you will unless you’re already over age 60), the government will put a shotgun to your head and force you to give her 50% of your assets (at least!) plus possibly alimony payments (paid to her monthly even if you have no children), and throw your ass in prison if you can’t pay it, even if you can’t afford these payments through no fault of your own (bad economy, fraud, etc).

As I’ve been screaming to the rooftops for almost 10 years, this is the absolute worst way to get married for a man in the modern era. There is literally no compelling reason to incur this amount of risk and pain. (And if you think there is, please read this.)

2. Civil License, Weak Prenup

This is exactly like option one, except the both of you also sign a prenuptial agreement that spells out what you want to have happen when you get divorced. Not what will happen, but what you want to have happen.

The problem is that, as the entire Western world continues to move further left, prenuptial agreements in most countries and cities aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on, and this is getting worse every year. Local marriage and divorce laws (of which there are thousands) can and usually will override your prenup no matter how “legal” it feels. As just one example, in the state of California, if you get divorced after 10 years, you are legally required to pay your wife monthly alimony forever, even if she signed a perfectly legal and court-approved prenup. The judge simply overrules your prenup in favor of the local law, which almost always takes precedence. As usual, big government always wins.

This marriage option is pretty much as horrible as option one, and you should not do it.

3. Civil License, Enforceable Prenup

This is just like option two, except with two differences:

1. You are lucky enough to live in a city/state/province/country that actually enforces prenuptial agreements for men when they get divorced. (There are very few of these places left in the slowly collapsing Western world. Soon, I predict there will be none.)

2. You have spent significant time (and likely even some money) before the marriage, researching all the laws in your city, including precedent-setting case law, to make absolutely sure your prenup is indeed enforceable.

This is a little better than options one and two, but there are two challenges with it.

The first problem is that a prenuptial agreement defines what happens when you get divorced. It does not help at all while you’re married. If you beat the odds and never get divorced, but she has a shitload of debt, or crappy credit, or past due taxes, or legal liabilities, or anything else like that, creditors and the government can come after you to collect that debt. This is because, prenup or not, once you sign that civil license, your financial lives are combined.

So, for example, while married to her, one of her creditor comes after you for her medical loans. You wave your prenup in their faces, saying that this isn’t your problem, and they just laugh and demand your money, and possibly even screw up your credit record if you don’t pay. Your prenup, enforceable as it is, has little power over them, because you aren’t divorced. (And yes, I have seen men married with good prenups go through this exact problem.)

Sure, you could spend thousands of dollars to take them to court to convince them that you aren’t liable for the money, and you will probably win after all that crap, but you still lose. Sure, you could spend your life on the telephone with various credit agencies correcting your credit record and credit score when they damage it going after your wife’s debts, but does that sound fun to you?

If she had absolutely zero debt, a pristine credit score, and a long history of perfect financial behavior (which means she cannot be young, since younger women don’t have a long history of anything), then you could make the argument that a civil license with an enforceable prenup is okay, and I might agree with you. However, we have a second problem…

Your enforceable prenup may not be enforceable, or as enforceable, as you thought when you get divorced down the road.

If you get divorced (and always remember that statistically speaking, you will!), you probably are not going to get divorced one two years later; if you don’t do anything irrational or stupid, you’re more likely to get divorced many years later. As I said, laws are constantly moving away from men and toward women. This means that during your marriage, you’re going to have to constantly check the laws in your city/state/province for the rest of your life to see if they’ve changed.

You may have to constantly update your prenup to reflect new laws. This costs money, time, and stress. Women do not like signing prenuptial agreements… and you’re going to make her sign one every few years for the rest of your marriage? Have fun enjoying that drama.

And what if, during your marriage, they simply pass a law rendering prenups useless? What then? You’re screwed, and no better off than the guy who chose option one.

Years ago, when I was first talking about OLTR Marriage, the enforceable prenup was a decent option that I recommended. While I’m not 100% against this option yet, over the years this option has moved from “safe” to somewhere between “mediocre” and “somewhat risky,” depending on you, her, and your individual financial scenarios. It’s going to take a lot of work, and you’re going to have to be very, very careful. Having that little piece of paper (the civil license) that no one knows about may not be worth the risk and work in many cases.

4. Civil License, Illegally Hiding Assets

Under this marriage option, you sign a civil license, possibly get a prenup (either a weak one or an enforceable one), just like in one of the three above options. You then take the bulk of your assets and hide them away in some distant set of investments, usually outside of your country. You never tell your wife about them, never report them on your taxes, and you hide the paper trail from everyone. When you get divorced, theoretically you’ll be able to keep the assets since no one knows about them.

Doing this is patently illegal and you’ll be breaking a variety of tax, divorce, and statutory laws. You might get away with it, or you might get caught and go to prison. To be fair, I’ve seen some men get away with this. I’ve also seen some men get their asses nailed when the divorcing wife, or someone in her family, hired a private investigator to go after the guy’s assets, or when the guy made a paperwork error.

So, while I realize this option might work, I cannot recommend it. As I talk about in my book, the Alpha Male 2.0 does not break the law, since the risk of having your freedom taken away by going to prison isn’t worth it.

5. Foreign Civil License While Living In the West

Under this option, you get a civil license with your wife, but you get it while on vacation in a distant, likely third-world country where things like financial merging, communal property (her getting “half”) and alimony don’t apply. Then, when you come back home, your home country might not recognize the civil license. If this is the case, your finances stay separate, and if you get divorced nothing much really happens.

The trick here is that many Western countries actually do recognize foreign marriages to some degree, so it’s possible your wife you married in Bangladesh could appeal to the local American or European judge for communal property and/or alimony. She might get it, she might not.

Again, it’s up to you to research the laws in your local city to see if a foreign marriage is a safe option for you or not. As always, be very careful.

6. Co-Habitation Agreement

This type of marriage is a legal contract that is the equivalent of a prenuptial agreement without a civil license. The assets and debts of the two spouses remain separate, though there is still some legal binding between the two of them, both within the agreement itself and within the laws regarding co-habitation in your local city, so you need to be prudent in covering all the bases.

In many jurisdictions, weird things like common law marriage may still apply (this is when the law treats you both as if a civil license has been signed after X number of years of co-habitation, even though it never actually was signed in real life). This depends on the city/state/province, how you arrange your finances, and how long the marriage is. Again, be careful, and research this stuff thoroughly before actually doing it.

7. Foreign Civil License While Living Abroad

Under this option, you permanently move out of the Western world and marry a woman while you live in the third world for the rest of your life. In many countries (Columbia comes to mind, as just one example) there are no real divorce laws, so things like communal property, alimony, and even child support aren’t present.

Most men are never going to permanently leave the West (though I am in a few years), but this is still a perfectly viable option for many, as I described already when I talked about the 9 Options for Men As They Age.

8. Domestic Partnership

This type of marriage is a legal contract that gives the spouses the ability to do things like file jointly on insurance forms, visit each other in the hospital as family members, inherit assets when one partner dies, receiving government pensions, and similar aspects. Common law aspects and mingling of assets may or may not apply, depending on the jurisdiction, which varies widely from region to region. As usual, you’ll have to do some legal research to see exactly what a domestic partnership entails in your local city.

9. Unmarriage

This is when two people just move in with each other, don’t sign anything, and just tell everyone they’re married. They still have a wedding, the woman still gets an engagement ring, and she may even change her last name to his last name, but there’s nothing in writing between them. I am surprised at the number of marriages I’ve seen like this lately, including within my own family. It’s rapidly becoming more popular, even though most people are completely unaware of these marriages.

This kind of marriage is often at risk for common law and “marriage like” relationships, where the woman is due a sort of alimony (called palimony) if the marriage ends, depending on how long the co-habitation lasts and how finances are arranged. As usual, check your local laws before doing anything.

These are, for the most part, all the “primary” ways to get married, though there are even more ways than this, such as a postnuptial agreements, religious marriage, and a few other usual arrangements. (If I have forgotten any, please let me know in the comments so we can make a complete list.)

To answer the question I know is coming, I will never publicly reveal the financial or legal details of any marriage I will or will not have, now or in the future. As I’ve stated many times over the years (particularly at my other blog), I do not reveal personal financial or personal legal information over the internet to the public (and neither should you). You’re just going to have to guess based on this and the many other articles I’ve already written about this topic.

The bottom line is that the word “marriage” means whatever the hell you want it to mean, regardless of weddings, engagement rings, and all the other usual Societal Programming trappings. It should be what works best for you and her, not what works best for society, your Societal Programming, your religion, your ego, or your mom. As always, no matter how excited or in love you are, keep your head about you, stay rational, move very slowly, do your research, stay Alpha, always maintain outcome independence, and don’t be an idiot. Your long-term happiness is what is most important here, not conforming to whatever society says certain words should mean.

85 Comments on “The 9 Different Marriage Legal Structures

  1. Another loophole is to cohabit while being legally married to someone else. No idea how practical this might be : )

  2. I’m glad there’s a blog like yours for like minded guys who “get it”.  Telling even the most intelligent men I know about these concepts is talking to a brick wall.  The women are even worse since they run on emotion and just start loosing their shit when you bring up any other options to TMM.  I constantly get into it with my buddy’s wife about my “shenanigans” (which is me living an Alpha 2.0 lifestyle, nonmonogamy, etc.).  She will not even consider any other life paths as valid that are contrary to absolute monogamy under a legal marriage.  She’s a total dominant as you may have guessed-he’ll be in for a world of hurt down the road with that one.

  3. Another loophole is to cohabit while being legally married to someone else. No idea how practical this might be.

    Yeah, not practical. Tell your girlfriend, “Hey, will you go legally marry my friend Joe? Then you and I can live together!”

    I’m glad there’s a blog like yours for like minded guys who “get it”.  Telling even the most intelligent men I know about these concepts is talking to a brick wall.

    Yeah, this is a blog that doesn’t do well for men with lower reading comprehension. If I was just ranting about football or SJW’s it would be a lot easier for those dudes.

  4. So I’m guessing that you added four more things since the last time when you kept saying there were five ways to get married?

    It’s funny that anon mentioned the already being married loophole. My buddy and I were recentltly talking about marrying each other in order to invalidate any future legal entanglements.

    That’s good that the unmarriage is becoming more popular. This will probably remain secret for the foreseeable future, much like the non monogamous community. ‘Traditional’ women try to shame non conformist women into marriage claiming things like the man is not respecting them or showing enough commitment, which leaves them no choice but to either pressure the man into legal marriage or keep an unmarriage secret.

  5. A lot of really intelligent and successful guys just can’t understand the simple concept you outlined on your article. Well, about those dudes, guess it’s ok if we just do our part explaining stuff and hoping for the best.

    After all it’s not our asses who are on the line.

  6. Why Engagement Rings Are a Scam — Adam Ruins Everything

    Yup. I already posted that video on my BD Facebook page last year. Diamonds are a completely manufactured demand.

    So I’m guessing that you added four more things since the last time when you kept saying there were five ways to get married?

    I said there were about five. Once I analyzed it, there’s actually more than nine, but beyond nine we get into weird, unusual stuff.

    After all it’s not our asses who are on the line.

    I get resistance from both extremes.

    On one side are the traditional conservative, guy-Disney Alpha 1.0’s who think traditional marriage and monogamy work great as long as she hasn’t fucked too many other guys and you stay Alpha. I answered those guys here and here.

    On the other side are the angry MGTOWish guys who think moving in with a woman under any scenario is insane no matter how you do it (and using the word “marriage” is death no matter how you do it), and that you should live alone for the rest of your life, well into your old age. I already answered those guys here and here.

    The point is to keep your happiness levels as high as possible, well into your older years, within the constraints of the reality you live in, rather than to take a hardline philosophical stance and stand on that until you die (and/or get divorce raped, and/or be lonely and angry, or whatever). I’ve shown that you can be consistent philosophically without being extreme black-and-white in your views.

  7. TMM only benefits the party who stands the most to gain. I’m ashamed to admit my gender are the biggest culprits of this. Just this afternoon I got flagged down by a guy I’ve known since I was 4 years old…during our small talk I casually asked how the wife and kids were…his face dropped and to which I replied… So its like that? He grimaced and told me how she had an affair with one of his employees blah blah you all know the story. His the nicest guy you’ll ever meet who really provided her with every comfort (his seriously minted FYI) and really didn’t deserve his efforts to be disrespected like that. So just when I was thinking urgh these men are over reacting it ain’t THAAAT bad. Boom I got schooled. I guess I kinda understand what the hoohah is about now and all these horror stories have solidified my plight to never get TMM, personally I think weddings are ridiculous and cannot possibly imagine myself gliding down the Ilse with a large piece of pale coloured material draped from my head, (guests awkwardly gawking at me waiting anxiously for the free champagne at the reception) I would probably burst out laughing.

  8. I screwed myself by getting married. The book is being written. You lose your money and access to your kids when you are a mega successful or average ward cleaver marrying stay at home June cleaver even if June develops addictions and is bad at sex and can’t keep a clean house. When you leave gold digging woman and your kids are young you might as well change your name to kunte kinte. While the other options go against the traditions of western culture ruined by modern day liberalism, there is no reason for a man to ever get married.

    Prostitutes and masturbation are the way to go unless you want children. Otherwise women are simply to be used and enjoyed as you choose and worthy of no respect at all.

  9. I’m ashamed to admit my gender are the biggest culprits of this

    Don’t be ashamed.  One of the big problems men (mostly betas anyway) have nowadays is this “I’m ashamed of my gender because of all those bad things ‘men’ do” bullshit; for the sake of equality, I don’t expect any woman to be ashamed because of what “women as a whole” or some particular women are doing. Men are willingly allowing themselves to be slowly choked through fallacious guilt-tripping based on the silly idea that “men” as a category is something you can brandish to make every man responsible for what Ghenghis or Mao or “the patriarchy” did or does to women, as if he inherited the guilt as a baby with a Y chromosome. All leftist thinking is based on essentializing a “class” of people anyway.
    The door swings both ways; no woman should be ashamed of women, just aware is what is needed.

  10. Prostitutes and masturbation are the way to go unless you want children. Otherwise women are simply to be used and enjoyed as you choose and worthy of no respect at all.

    To the readers, is a perfect example of a mindset that is the opposite of what I talk about; a mindset guaranteed to create long-term unhappiness instead of happiness. If you start thinking thoughts like this, it’s a signal to come to a complete stop and objectively analyze your feelings, and ask yourself if feeling this way will truly make you happy in life.

  11. @Joanna:

    TMM only benefits the party who stands the most to gain.

    It’s relationship insurance for the woman. Just like health insurance or car insurance. If the relationship doesn’t work out, she gets paid.

    BD said something in one of his books to the affect of – “If a woman keeps nagging you for marriage, come to her with a piece of paper and tell her: Honey, sign this paper. It says that if our relationship doesn’t work out, or if you catch me in bed cheating on you with another woman, you will be required to give me half your stuff and pay me a monthly allowance till the day I die that I can then enjoy with the woman you caught me in bed with. It also says I take the kids. Will you sign it? If she says no, act mad and say: What do you mean no? I thought you wanted to take this relationship to the next level? I….thought you loved me! Was I a fool?”  

    I’m ashamed to admit my gender are the biggest culprits of this.

    When the entire matriarchal culture, legal system, family courts, etc… are on your gender’s side, it’s hard not to give in to the darkness of human nature.

    I heard stories from my clients and seen first hand how some bisexual women “turn lesbian” and try to have a live-in girlfriend. After a few years they say that women are too much drama and they will stick to men only for serous relationships from now on. What they really didn’t like about living with another woman was that the law treated them equally. So if she called the police for domestic violence, the cops didn’t automatically take her partner away, and she wasn’t given any other type of legal, cultural, or social preference from anyone.

    After getting a taste of true equality, these women became disgusted and resolved to only marry, or live with, men, in order to restore their supremacist privileges bestowed upon them by our chivalrous culture and legal system.

    Just this afternoon I got flagged down by a guy I’ve known since I was 4 years old…during our small talk I casually asked how the wife and kids were…his face dropped and to which I replied… So its like that? He grimaced and told me how she had an affair with one of his employees blah blah

    Awesome! Good for her! At least someone was having fun during the marriage.

    you all know the story. His the nicest guy you’ll ever meet

    HAHAHA! So he’s a beta chump. No wonder.

    who really provided her with every comfort (his seriously minted FYI)

    So she was his prostitute. She used him as a beta provider while sleeping with alpha lovers on the side. Typical.

    and really didn’t deserve his efforts to be disrespected like that.

    The more you allow a woman to become a parasite upon your bank account, the less attracted she’ll be to you. That’s why you need to be an alpha/jerk. Every time a nice guy beta tells me how much he castrated himself by saying, “I did everything for that bitch,” I always respond with, “Yeah, and that’s the fucking problem.”

    So just when I was thinking urgh these men are over reacting it ain’t THAAAT bad. Boom I got schooled.

    Read the book “Taken Into Custody” by Stephan Baskerville.

    I guess I kinda understand what the hoohah is about now and all these horror stories have solidified my plight to never get TMM,

    As a woman, there’s no risk to you. But you’d have to find a beta nice guy whom you’re not attracted to and let alphas pound you on the side. If your beta hubby finds out, you can just cash out of the marriage and fund your new life with his money.

    And if you have kids with him, you can just say he molested them. In Family Court, hearsay is treated like irrefutable evidence. He’ll be required to pay your lawyers and leave his own property under penalty imprisonment and then be compelled by the court to work at whatever job the court orders him to work at so he can pay the child support and alimony he owes you! It’s pretty evil. I’m glad I’m retiring from this profession tomorrow.

    personally I think weddings are ridiculous

    They are attention whoring ceremonies in which the groom is just an accessory on “her” special day. It’s like, she has the ring, the dress, the husband, the shoes, etc… It’s all about her narcissism and public worship, while he is told how lucky he is and to remember his lines and don’t embarrass her! It’s sick!

    and cannot possibly imagine myself gliding down the Ilse with a large piece of pale coloured material draped from my head, (guests awkwardly gawking at me waiting anxiously for the free champagne at the reception) I would probably burst out laughing

    Well, if you’re not into narcissistic worship, good for you. Personally, every time someone invites me to a wedding, I ask if there are any bridesmaids or hot women there that I can fuck. One time, I even fucked the bride on her wedding morning (but she was a regular fuck buddy of mine anyway and was just marrying a chump). If there’s no woman for me to have sex with, I decline the invitation and suggest that they put the wedding on youtube and maybe I’ll give it a thumps up.

     

    .

  12. Prostitutes and masturbation are the way to go unless you want children.

    Um…..why not have sincere fuck buddies, friends with benefits, MLTRs, and serious poly relationships? Avoiding marriage and monogamy doesn’t mean avoiding women and sex.

     

  13. why not have sincere fuck buddies, friends with benefits, MLTRs, and serious poly relationships? Avoiding marriage and monogamy doesn’t mean avoiding women and sex.

    Exactly.

    As I said, men on the extremes…

  14. BD, twice today, when refreshing this page, I found a new comment had been posted, and when refreshing it again later, I discovered yet another one after the old comments but above the comment I found earlier. How very strange that the comments should not appear in strictly chronological order. For example, I only saw Jack’s two-sentence comment and not the other one, and was about to proclaim that comment to be a Chinese counterfeit due to being so much inside the box.

  15. That’s normal. It’s how WordPress spam filters comments and I have zero control over it. Jack usually writes comments that are way too long and full of trigger words WP doesn’t like, thus the delay in display posting.

  16. The bottom line is that the word “marriage” means whatever the hell you want it to mean,

    Surely, the bottom line is that no matter what you choose to mean be “marriage” the state has its own ideas, and those ideas mostly involve extracting a man’s resources, and there’s not a great deal you can do about it. You might as well claim that “enlisting in the military” means whatever the hell you want it to mean.

  17. Surely, the bottom line is that no matter what you choose to mean be “marriage” the state has its own ideas, and those ideas mostly involve extracting a man’s resources, and there’s not a great deal you can do about it.

    Incorrect. There are literally scores of things you can do about it; some good, some bad, some weak, some strong. Did you not read the above article? There are many ways to either avoid or mitigate the state’s influence on your type of co-habitation with a woman.

    You might as well claim that “enlisting in the military” means whatever the hell you want it to mean.

    Incorrect again. There are not 9+ different ways of enlisting in the military that radically alter the legal and financial ramifications of doing so. Otherwise, look me in the eye and tell me that the state views a civil license with no prenup as exactly the same as an unmarriage, in all legal and financial respects (as just one example I could use).

  18. On the other side are the angry MGTOWish guys who think moving in with a woman under any scenario is insane no matter how you do it (and using the word “marriage” is death no matter how you do it), and that you should live alone for the rest of your life, well into your old age.

    *Raises hand*

    But I’m not this bad…

    Prostitutes and masturbation are the way to go unless you want children. Otherwise women are simply to be used and enjoyed as you choose and worthy of no respect at all.

    Like usual, I fall in between those two extremes. Which is usually something like this:

    Um…..why not have sincere fuck buddies, friends with benefits, MLTRs, and serious poly relationships? Avoiding marriage and monogamy doesn’t mean avoiding women and sex.

    “I’m ashamed to admit my gender are the biggest culprits of this.”
    They are. But that’s what happens. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and it was only a matter of time before the women’s movement became the patriarchal power structures they despise so much, only with the genders flipped. I dislike it, but I also understand it. I’ve jokingly said that the man should have the woman’s last name in a marriage, and I’ve had feminist types laugh at this too. I’ve found that when you take the collective thinking away, there is still some semblance of humanity (with anyone who is a member of a collective group).

  19. Prostitutes and masturbation are the way to go unless you want children. Otherwise women are simply to be used and enjoyed as you choose and worthy of no respect at all.

    Christ almighty. You sound like my dad after his divorce lol.

    Why not just casually date and stuff? That’s what I do.

  20. In the end I think the state has so much societal programming that any type of marriage you choose from the above can and will be treated just like a traditional marriage in the end, just like common law marriage is in many places. Get married however you want but when you are presenting yourself as married to the world then eventually it is treated that way by legal entities. I would think Jack would know all about this- doesn’t he practice family law?

  21. It’s funny because maybe women want marriage the first time around but I feel like a lot of times it’s really the man that wants it, especially when they are over 40. Men that are single and over 40 don’t tend to want to be alone. They want someone to take care of them. I honestly have no real desire to get married again at this point, maybe ever. It’s too stifling and I don’t really want to be tied down like that.

    Really, what is the point of getting married if not to raise a family? If you want an open marriage, why do it at all? Seems unnecessary to me, unless you are either wanting to tie the woman down (typical of a lot of men, even when they sleep around) or are just trying to hang onto someone by giving in to their demands.

  22. In the end I think the state has so much societal programming that any type of marriage you choose from the above can and will be treated just like a traditional marriage in the end, just like common law marriage is in many places.

    Yes, you might be right.

    Reason number 74 that I’m leaving the Western world soon.

    It’s funny because maybe women want marriage the first time around but I feel like a lot of times it’s really the man that wants it, especially when they are over 40. Men that are single and over 40 don’t tend to want to be alone.

    Correct. Most men over 40 in the dating pool are hardcore male provider hunters. (Perhaps “providee hunter” is more accurate.)

    I honestly have no real desire to get married again at this point, maybe ever.

    Ha! Bullshit! You’ll get married again. It might be many years from now, but you will. I’d bet money on it. (But I wouldn’t bet you.)

    Really, what is the point of getting married if not to raise a family? If you want an open marriage, why do it at all?

    I’ve answered that question about four times already. Not sure why it’s so hard to understand. I guess I’ll answer it again: to satisfy some aspects (though not all) of the Societal Programming within the person you marry. The only other option is to find a woman with ZERO Societal Programming regarding marriage. Good luck. I know there are some more masculine divorced women, perhaps in the poly community, who are like this. But good luck finding a very attractive, “normal,” feminine woman who falls into this category; that’s the type I’m attracted to; a problem I’ve always had since day one (and have talked about before).

  23. @Anon:

    I only saw Jack’s two-sentence comment and not the other one, and was about to proclaim that comment to be a Chinese counterfeit due to being so much inside the box.

    Which comment of mine are you proclaiming to be “inside the box?” The two sentence one, or the one above it? Whichever one, can you explain why you felt it was blue pill? Because I’m quite certain you misunderstood it somehow.

     

  24. @BD:

    Jack usually writes comments that are way too long and full of trigger words WP doesn’t like,

    I’d love to know what those trigger words are.

    The only other option is to find a woman with ZERO Societal Programming regarding marriage. Good luck. I know there are some more masculine divorced women, perhaps in the poly community, who are like this.

    Most older women in the poly community are in open marriages, due to the need to keep up more traditional appearances for the sake of the sheep. The younger generation is fine with open relationships only, but quite a few want poly marriages like their parents. My girlfriend wanted to marry me and I said no. Her next offer was a symbolic wedding ceremony (in a Wiccan temple) that would have no legal existence, which I also declined, since I can’t vow to be with her forever even in symbolism, as that would lead her to taking me for granted and losing attraction for me.

    Especially when you consider the fact that love requires spontaneity and the threat of it ending any moment for it to breathe and flourish. Predicting the future with a wedding ceremony (even a symbolic one) is arrogance, and tends to lead to forced continuity, which strangles the passion of lust, otherwise guided by its completely organic evolution.

    Thus far, my girlfriend is fine with simply staying as an OLTR (with potential children in our near future).

    But good luck finding a very attractive, “normal,” feminine woman who falls into this category;

    You’ll find plenty of attractive women in the poly community who are fine without marriage. I don’t know what you mean by “normal.” Normal is boring and blue pill. The only thing I can definitely refute is “feminine.” The women in my community are certainly feminine and attractive physically (like my girl), but in terms of their personalities, they tend to be bad ass sex-positive “feminists” (although my girl calls herself a humanist). They are dominant towards betas and independent towards alphas. They do have a masculine attitude concerning sex and sexuality.

    They tend to be very promiscuous and usually seduce the men they find hot. They can be very forward and confident. They are also delighted when they find a man like me who is fine with them sleeping with other men and even going to swingers parties without him.

    that’s the type I’m attracted to; a problem I’ve always had since day one (and have talked about before).

    Yeah, a lot of people here, including myself, expected you to settle down with a girl like mine – a bad ass, high sex drive, and promiscuous freak who will be the one asking for a threesome and dragging you to an orgy every Friday. Alas, you’re attracted to the feminine Disney type, even while preaching against Disney. A sad paradox, my friend. Good thing I don’t have that contradiction. 🙂

    P.S. This summer, her and I might be in Washington. I showed her a picture of you and she said you look somewhat like her father, which she finds weirdly hot. If we make it out there, any chance we can hang out? Further, if I email you her picture sometime before and you approve, would you like to fuck her?

     

     

  25. @Lovergirl:

    I would think Jack would know all about this-

    The government can’t touch you if it doesn’t recognize the legal existence of your relationship, or your relationship’s “official status.” The goal then is to make the relationship as unofficial and extra-legal as possible. So if you get legally married, enter into a civil union, or an official “domestic partnership,” you’re taking a risk by bringing the government into your bed (which no true libertarian would ever do). If you live together long enough to be pronounced “married at common law,” same shit.

    If you don’t live together long enough to be common law married, haven’t married, haven’t entered a civil union, and haven’t entered a domestic partnership, but still move in together without a cohabitation agreement, courts will see this as an unofficial domestic partnership, or a “relationship akin to marriage,” and might extract palimony from the man.

    Even worse, liberal states like California are expanding the definition of cohabitation. Just merely sleeping over at each other’s homes on a regular basis, or leaving each other’s stuff there can be enough for her to hire a private investigator to take pictures of the man’s clothes in her closet and so forth, and present this as evidence of “de facto cohabitation.” This is where it pays to learn from James Bond and not leave a trace when you leave.

    Strong and enforceable cohabitation agreements, prenuptial agreements, and non-monogamous arrangements mitigate the legal fall out. Post-nuptial agreements are worth less than toilet paper.

    doesn’t he practice family law?

    Only for one more day, baby! 🙂 I’m retiring from the legal profession March 21st, 7:00 pm (central time). Tomorrow is my last day! I’ve spent the last two years training my replacement “mini-me,” and she has turned out fantastic (yes, it’s a female version of me, lol). It is now her turn to fight against the matrix in the legal sphere while I take up the fight in the cultural sphere full time now! Can’t wait! I have so many big plans!

     

     

     

  26. The word “marriage” normally means a civil license. Tmm, non-monogamous, polyamory, gay, oltr, etc. If you have a civil license you are, in fact, married. If you do not have a civil licence, you are not, and you have more options including keeping a personal harem if you are rich. By reading your marriage options, you preach that if you have a civil licence with a woman, you are pretty much fucked no matter what, prenup or no prenup. I agree.

  27. Which comment of mine are you proclaiming to be “inside the box?” The two sentence one, or the one above it? Whichever one, can you explain why you felt it was blue pill? Because I’m quite certain you misunderstood it somehow.

    The one that completely fit into a rectangular box with height less than width. So uncharacteristic of you : )

    The government can’t touch you if it doesn’t recognize the legal existence of your relationship, or your relationship’s “official status.”

    In most jurisdictions, the criminal law has a provision that if one’s actions weren’t a crime when committed, then one can’t be prosecuted. But I can easily see family law having an ex postfacto effect, leading to one finding himself married all of a sudden.

  28. In most jurisdictions, the criminal law has a provision that if one’s actions weren’t a crime when committed, then one can’t be prosecuted.

    That’s not a provision within criminal law. That is a guarantee within the U.S. Constitution (Article I: Sections IX and X). All ex post facto criminal laws (laws making something illegal when it was legal, thus exposing law abiding citizens to prosecution for past legal actions) are prohibited.

    However, the U.S. Supreme Court has interpreted the ex post facto clauses as applying only to criminal law, not civil law. And yes, marriage is a civil contract, thus being vulnerable to retroactive changes.

    The Court has also ruled that the two Constitutional clauses prohibiting ex post facto laws, apply only to laws passed by Congress, a state legislature, or a local city legislature , not bureaucratic regulations. This explains how the IRS can simply amend its tax code for the purposes of retroactive taxation. It’s not an ex post facto law, but an ex post facto procedural regulation. Those are fine.

    But I can easily see family law having an ex postfacto effect, leading to one finding himself married all of a sudden.

    Yup. Like all civil institutions, family courts may impose retroactive rulings (like retroactive child support). They are also immune to the 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, and 9th Amendments to the Constitution because those Constitutional guarantees explicitly – by their plain language – confine themselves only to criminal law, not civil law. And family courts are “courts of equity,” not courts of law.

     

     

  29. personally I think weddings are ridiculous and cannot possibly imagine myself gliding down the isle with a large piece of pale coloured material draped from my head

    They are attention whoring ceremonies in which the groom is just an accessory on “her” special day.

    I agree with the above comments.  I don’t like to be the center of attention, therefore I have no desire to ever have a wedding and be married.  Women don’t want to get married, they want to have weddings.  Two friends have expressed to me what it felt like after their big day was over.  One said she became depressed the day after her wedding because now it was all over and there was no longer anything to look forward to.  The other friend said she missed all of the attention she was getting from people asking her about how the planning was going.  The fact is, they were just getting high off of it.  I highly doubt they spent much time realizing that what they were actually doing was making a lifetime commitment to someone.

  30. The word “marriage” normally means a civil license.

    Correct. Marriage is: “Government in the bedroom!” Which, in my libertarian opinion, is Unconstitutional since it bestows governmental benefits based on sexual practices, thus discriminating against asexuals, in violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment, but the courts disagree with me (so far).

    If you have a civil license you are, in fact, married. If you do not have a civil licence, you are not,

    Incorrect. The government may very well pronounce you as “married” completely against your will without any stupid license. That’s what common law marriage is. And even without common law marriage, just by living together without a cohabitation agreement, you run the risk of courts pronouncing your arrangement as a “relationship akin to marriage,” thus forcing marriage law upon you, no license required.

    and you have more options including keeping a personal harem if you are rich.

    Or if you’re poor as well (unless you only fuck gold diggers).

     

     

  31.  I highly doubt they spent much time realizing that what they were actually doing was making a lifetime commitment to someone.

    This is why I want to know what BD’s vows are going to be. He doesn’t plan on making any “till death do us part” promises, because he knows that’s Disney bullshit. So what will the judge ask him?

    “Do you take this woman to be your lawful wedded wife for as long as it’s convenient?” Haha! I mean, seriously, what are those vows going to sound like? This is why I want his wedding to be on youtube. I predict that, with proper advertisement, it might get slightly more views than the video with that cat playing with the string (which is a lot). It’s definitely worth monetizing.

     

  32. Eastern Europe has it much easier : ) Vows aren’t a traditional part of a wedding here, and the official merely asks, “N., would you like to take N. as your wife/husband?”.

  33. Eastern Europe has it much easier : ) Vows aren’t a traditional part of a wedding here, and the official merely asks, “N., would you like to take N. as your wife/husband?”.

    And not only that. I was shocked when I read the description of Option 1 (civil licence, no prenup). Here in CZ, only the property that you acquired upon entering a marriage is legally considered as what we call “the common property of the spouses”, i.e. the property that would be divided between the spouses in divorce. Anything you acquired before the marriage is yours and yours only. Inheritance is also exempt, as far as I know.

  34. Alas, you’re attracted to the feminine Disney type, even while preaching against Disney. A sad paradox, my friend.

    A paradox I’ve had to learn to live with for the past 10 years. It doesn’t bother me as much as it bothers you though; I’m far more outcome independent than you are.

    P.S. This summer, her and I might be in Washington.

    Email me if you want to try to hang out, though the odds are always low. And I’m in southern Washington, not Seattle.

    My girlfriend wanted to marry me and I said no

    That’s exactly my point and I rest my case. Even your highly unconventional, Wiccan, poly girlfriend who lets you fuck her mom has some Disney that you have to manage.

    Every attractive woman is going to have some Disney, period.

    A lot of guys getting upset about this topic in the last few threads about this seem to think that they can “marry” a woman (co-habituate for many years while using terms like “marry”) without doing ANY Societal Programming shit like rings or weddings or whatever. Unless you’re attracted to extremely masculine women, this is not possible (unless you get very lucky with the exception to the rule; and luck is not a skill). You’re going to have to manage some amount of Disney, or else she’ll eventually leave, which means you’re looking at a serial monogamy or serial OLTR situation (which is fine if that’s all you want, but don’t expect any co-habitation relationship you have to go well past 4-5 years if that’s the case).

  35. @Jack in the box South Africa does not enforce child support agreements although the ‘news’ will preach otherwise, all a man has to do is quit his job and go live with his mom, the court will deem him a ‘man of straw’ if you try pursue anything further lawyers will tell you ‘this is not America’ and there is most certainly no such thing as ailomy here. So me finding a beta provider is absolutely pointless since I already earn more than your average AFC. Infact I can imagine beta gold diggers getting excited about the lifestyle I could provide them with, their eyes wild with wonder at the prospect of being a ‘house husband’ so come live here in our sunny land where polygamy is legal and courts are too busy eating KFC to enforce anything. Its a free for all!

  36. People are so frustrating when you try to talk to them rationally about this stuff.

    I have a friend who believes that marriage is basically pointless in 2017. HOWEVER, he states that anyone who gets married with a prenup and protects their assets is “a little bitch”, because they don’t actually plan on staying with the girl forever. This defiles the marriage or something.

    There’s no reason why he believes this obviously, it’s just a feeling that he has.

    My response is “if doing that means you’re a little bitch, but it improves your quality of life… I say fuck it, be a little bitch then. Who cares.”

  37. I’ve been researching this topic as of late, and I’ve noticed some celebrities have actually gone unmarried. Vin Diesel comes to mind. He and his girlfriend, who is a Mexican model have three kids and aren’t married. I wonder how Vin pulled that off.

    “Prostitutes and masturbation are the way to go unless you want children. Otherwise women are simply to be used and enjoyed as you choose and worthy of no respect at all.”

     

    To the readers, is a perfect example of a mindset that is the opposite of what I talk about; a mindset guaranteed to create long-term unhappiness instead of happiness. If you start thinking thoughts like this, it’s a signal to come to a complete stop and objectively analyze your feelings, and ask yourself if feeling this way will truly make you happy in life.

    I’d say it’s a good example of men not wanting casual relationships (even if they gained the skill-set to do so) more than anything. I agree that they aren’t happy with their hooker/celibate lifestyle, but they are probably as happy as they can possibly be by at least choosing not to be a beta. Supposedly there is a  group of guys called black pill. Sounds like MGTOWs to me, but they are always bring out new terms such as TFL and other such acronyms. Some one over on RVF linked an article about these guys. https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-61666.html?highlight=black+pill

    @Jack in the box

    If you keep letting people call you this I’ll have to start calling you Jack in the Crack. lol

  38. People are so frustrating when you try to talk to them rationally about this stuff.

    Yep.

    A significant percentage of people can’t talk rationally about these topics. They literally don’t have the ability, even if they’re intelligent.

    I’ve been researching this topic as of late, and I’ve noticed some celebrities have actually gone unmarried. Vin Diesel comes to mind. He and his girlfriend, who is a Mexican model have three kids and aren’t married. I wonder how Vin pulled that off.

    He’s a celebrity. The rules are different for them.

    I agree that they aren’t happy with their hooker/celibate lifestyle, but they are probably as happy as they can possibly be by at least choosing not to be a beta.

    Then we’re talking about degrees of unhappiness, not about happiness.

    I don’t think being “less unhappy” is a valid goal. But that’s me.

    Supposedly there is a  group of guys called black pill.

    Great. More angry men who’ve given up, to further darken the world. Sounds wonderful.

  39. Supposedly there is a  group of guys called black pill. Sounds like MGTOWs to me, but they are always bring out new terms such as TFL and other such acronyms. 

    I’ve wandered in that “community” (if you can call it that). S’Funny, I acted almost EXACTLY like them when I was in high school. After seeing some posts on PUAHate (eerily enough I was on there when Rodger was on there), I was like “holy SHIT these boys all act like me when I was in high school, and they are in their 20s and 30s?”

    I remember commenting these EXACT words on one of Rodger’s videos: “I’ve been through worse, it gets better trust me. You can make everything better for yourself right now, it’ll take time but its worth it. Just learn basic social skills for 2-3 years with no expectations that’s all you need. I’ll give you all the contact info you need to get in touch so you can at least have a buddy who can help you. Just don’t do anything crazy or stupid. If I can do it anyone can.” He blocked me in seconds.

    I know about TFL too. In the late 00s when PUAism was hitting its stride I was at odds with the “founder” of it, Bill Greathouse and another boy named Steve Hoca. Both were more successful than me, yet I was much much happier than they were and I let them know it. AND I was addicted to sleeping pills and struggling hard in college at the time. I offered up a solution (to watch/read/listen to some David DeAngelo, this was 2008 after all and I was a PUA Fanboy then), and like Rodger, they blocked me. Again, in seconds. Only difference is unlike Rodger they were grown ass men, Greathouse being in his 50s and Hoca being in I believe his mid 30s.

    The blackpillers are cowards who want everything to be perfect for them because (unfortunately) that’s what many of them were promised via SP. As I said, I was one of them growing up. I’m just glad I had buddies who called me out on it. I feel bad for them, but bad is all I feel.

  40. @BD:

    That’s exactly my point and I rest my case.

    Did you forget the part where I said no and she was cool with it?

    Even your highly unconventional, Wiccan, poly girlfriend who lets you fuck her mom

    Cough, cough…..ahem! Good memory! You inadvertently make it sound like it’s a regular thing, or something. It was only twice. The first time I fucked her mom, it was an accident, and my girl (who was an MLTR at the time) burst into tears and after composing herself, told me, “If you’re going to fuck my mom again, please don’t tell me about it.” That’s when I upgraded her to OLTR.

    The second time was part of a ritual she was performing where I wasn’t even allowed to cum inside her, but had to finish in the daughter.

    Anyway, mommy and I aren’t exactly on good terms and she’s even banned me from the swingers parties she organizes due to my lack of desire to fall in line with her agenda (I think you read my field report on that).

    has some Disney that you have to manage.

    Yeah, but I managed it by saying no. You’re managing it by saying yes.

    Every attractive woman is going to have some Disney, period.

    Although there are women in the poly community who are okay with just OLTRs. Two of them have told me that they are fine with getting married, but it will be a private marriage (not legal) and it will only be for the purposes of rising within powerful mainstream circles (where everyone is in an open marriage). Some of these poly people in my girlfriend’s community are extremely rich and connected (they make her look like a welfare case in comparison despite her receiving a 12 million dollar inheritance when she turned 21).

    A lot of guys getting upset about this topic in the last few threads about this seem to think that they can “marry” a woman (co-habituate for many years while using terms like “marry”) without doing ANY Societal Programming shit like rings or weddings or whatever. Unless you’re attracted to extremely masculine women, this is not possible (unless you get very lucky with the exception to the rule; and luck is not a skill). You’re going to have to manage some amount of Disney, or else she’ll eventually leave, which means you’re looking at a serial monogamy or serial OLTR situation (which is fine if that’s all you want, but don’t expect any co-habitation relationship you have to go well past 4-5 years if that’s the case).

    I’ll see if I can confirm this after her and I move in together!

     

  41. @Dan:

    I have a friend who believes that marriage is basically pointless in 2017. HOWEVER, he states that anyone who gets married with a prenup and protects their assets is “a little bitch”, because they don’t actually plan on staying with the girl forever. This defiles the marriage or something.

    There’s no reason why he believes this obviously, it’s just a feeling that he has.

    My response is “if doing that means you’re a little bitch, but it improves your quality of life… I say fuck it, be a little bitch then. Who cares.”

    I actually agree with your friend in many ways. Marriage represents a certain philosophy. You can steer clear of that philosophy (like me) or you can hypocritically embrace it, despite contradicting most of its core tenets (like forever love). Most people aren’t as naïve as religious Disney fundamentalists, and yet they can’t seem to let go of marriage. So they compromise. Because they want to be liked. Or because they’re weak. Or because they want to manage someone else’s Disney expectations.

    I prefer ideological consistency. Which is why I completely reject marriage and its underpinning philosophy of communal approval of, and the tribe’s blessing upon, your sex life and the “legitimacy” of your children (as if you need those things).

    I’m actually at the point where I think that having sex before marriage, but still believing in marriage, is hypocritical. The point of marriage – that which makes it distinctive from other types of relationships – is sex.  In the words of the jesus people, you “give yourselves to each other on your wedding night for the first time.” If sex is something you already experienced, you’ve cheapened marriage to the point where continuing to believe in it is just societal programming.

    Like I said, I prefer ideological consistency in all my endeavors, which is why I agree with your friend, and also why I have chosen to reject marriage and monogamy, thus freeing myself to enjoy my sex-positive lifestyle without being bugged by internal contradictions and society-motivated hypocrisies.

     

  42. @Joanna:

    South Africa does not enforce child support agreements although the ‘news’ will preach otherwise, all a man has to do is quit his job and go live with his mom, the court will deem him a ‘man of straw’

    So…..in order to avoid child support (which has nothing to do with alimony, palimony, communal property, or anything I’m taking about), all you have to do is live with your mom? That’s pretty pathetic and I don’t like that at all. Also, no adult should live with their parents.

    if you try pursue anything further lawyers will tell you ‘this is not America’ and there is most certainly no such thing as ailomy here.

    Well that’s good at least.

    So me finding a beta provider is absolutely pointless since I already earn more than your average AFC.

    Ok. I didn’t know you were in Africa.

    so come live here in our sunny land

    LOL! No thank you. I prefer the sexually liberated West.

    where polygamy is legal

    That’s disgusting. I HATE polygamy. That’s even worse than monogamy. Forget about being imprisoned and chained to one woman. When I imagine myself being sexually imprisoned and chained to four women, I am filled with a child-like terror! Polygamy is the worst sexual arrangement ever conceived. Monogamy is the second worst.

    I don’t think my lifestyle of polyamory is legal in South Africa. All cultures that love polygamy hate polyamory (and I’m pretty sickened by some of the female genital mutilation that takes place there).

    Thanks for the offer though.

     

     

  43. @Duke:

    I’ve been researching this topic as of late, and I’ve noticed some celebrities have actually gone unmarried. Vin Diesel comes to mind. He and his girlfriend, who is a Mexican model have three kids and aren’t married. I wonder how Vin pulled that off.

    It’s not that hard.

    I’d say it’s a good example of men not wanting casual relationships (even if they gained the skill-set to do so) more than anything.

    Just because you don’t want one night stands and fuck buddies, and also reject monogamy, doesn’t mean your only other choices are hookers or celibacy. In the poly world, there are friends with benefits (which are more than casual), MLTRs, OLTRs, and many different types of arrangements (triads, quads, exclusive conditional, inclusive conditional, inclusive unconditional, etc…).

    When first entering that community, my girlfriend had to educate me on the different terms, especially involving group sex. There are hierarchy threesomes (two primaries and one secondary), egalitarian threesomes (three secondaries or tertiaries), group sex exclusive (where lots of people have sex in a group, but only with one other person, albeit with potential partner switching), group sex inclusive (where 6 or more people have sex with everyone else, also known as an orgy, not to be confused with a foursome, or a foursome with one spare – 5 people).

    But I’ll leave it there since the rest becomes more complicated. My point is, just because someone rejects ONSs and FBs, and also doesn’t want monogamy, that’s no reason to go the hooker/celibate route.

    I agree that they aren’t happy with their hooker/celibate lifestyle, but they are probably as happy as they can possibly be by at least choosing not to be a beta.

    Celibacy and fucking hookers is beta.

    Supposedly there is a  group of guys called black pill. Sounds like MGTOWs to me, but they are always bring out new terms such as TFL and other such acronyms.

    I’ve seen the so called “TFLers” (true forced loneliness) before. I’ve never seen a sadder group of losers in my life! Their latest political effort was lobbying Congress to pass a law criminalizing women rejecting men! I wish I were kidding. These are the Eliot Rodgers in training. They would love to crash a swingers party, for example, with a semi-automatic. They’ll never find one though.

    @Jack in the box

    If you keep letting people call you this I’ll have to start calling you Jack in the Crack. lol

    I don’t control other people’s speech, despite voicing my displeasure at this slur on multiple occasions. I’m hoping BD will eventually treat it like an ad hominem.

     

  44. English is not my natural language. Even so I can understand two simple things:

    – if you want to stay connected long-term to an attractive woman you’ll have to make some small concessions about Disney marriage , as long as it does not damage your freedom, happiness or financial situation;

    – by doing so you’re not compromising your Alpha status or any other major aspect of the Alpha 2.0 lifestyle;

    How hard is that?

  45. Just a response in observation of Jack Outside the Box’s girlfriend: I mean obviously these young girls in their early twenties are care-free and act this way now……into witchcraft/wicca, spiritual stuff and are cool with banging lots of guys, the threesomes with the mother, or whatever that was all about, and all that crazy stuff; but I wouldn’t be surprised if it is all just a phase and she changes or grows up a little once she’s in her thirties.  I mean, when I was 23, I wanted to be Kate Bosworth from the movie Blue Crush and move to Hawaii and become a surfer and all that.  Then I eventually grew out of that phase as I got older………but the good thing is once she grows out of it and moves on, there will be some other young, crazy one to take her place at least!

  46. Their latest political effort was lobbying Congress to pass a law criminalizing women rejecting men! I wish I were kidding.

    What the actual fuck. I need to look this up, and save it. It’ll be an instant cure if I ever feel down or something. Care to send a link, JOTB?

  47. Did you forget the part where I said no and she was cool with it?

    Did you forget my article about how you have to ignore what women SAY and only pay attention to what they DO?

    She’s not “cool” with it; she’s not going to bug you about it now because she wants to move in with you (Disney). Later she will, and you’ll have to manage that somehow. You’re fucking moving in together. It’s going to happen, and will be more intense the second time around. If you think it’s never going to happen, you’re insane. Your GF has some Disney. Not as much as mine, but some.

    Yeah, but I managed it by saying no. You’re managing it by saying yes.

    I didn’t say yes. I said partially. I’m not going to do TMM and never will. This will be done on my terms or it won’t be done at all.

    I don’t control other people’s speech, despite voicing my displeasure at this slur on multiple occasions. I’m hoping BD will eventually treat it like an ad hominem.

    You go around telling people to go fuck themselves on my blog, therefore I don’t put any weight on your complaining.

  48. @Jack outside the box Whoops I got your name wrong the first time, sorry.

    The liberated west has nothing on where I live, polyamoury is RAMPANT here and my area ain’t nicknamed ‘the wild west’ for nothing. We have different terminology though and its widely accepted that there is a ‘main chick’ and then a hierarchy of ‘side chicks’ and our small town is notorious for being swingers HQ. Its literally one big fuck fest and it ain’t my scene but its definitely happening since I know many participants. You’d also find plenty of your wiccan ladies here, we also HQ for satanists (I know its not the same as wiccan) HQ for Nigerian drug lords and cocaine trafficking. There is something for everyone if you’re a hedonist. Basically its
    Sodom and Gomorrah in this quaint sea side village. Foreigners running around here with goofy smiles on their faces having the time of their lives in a very free society, anything goes here and almost everything is legal or awaiting approval at Parliament. Just watch out for the 1 in 4 (known) HIV statistics. We call it ‘buying a House in Vincent’ and you don’t want that.

  49. This might be the best article you’ve ever written, and I’ve been following your blog for a while.  I’ve definitely never thought about those weird edge cases, where you have an enforceable prenup but your wife has debt and the creditors still come after you.

    Supposing that you live in an area where alimony laws are terrible for men (which is most of the country), and that you are not willing to leave the US, which of these options would you recommend?

    It seems like the unmarried / cohabitation (with a ceremony) or the domestic partnership with a prenup equivalent (depending on the state) are the best options here for most men who stay in the US.

  50. @ joelsuf

    I’ve wandered in that “community” (if you can call it that).

    Well, there’s too much over lap and things get quite blurry when it comes to the terminology and the actual participants. I ran into some black pill blogs a couple years ago, and it was not so fatalistic as PUA hate, TFL and all that other stuff. The guys that I read had decent arguments like you, where you state that guys should date girls within their attractiveness level (or work on self-improvement if they want hotter chicks), instead of deluding themselves in to thinking they deserve something thing good for simply existing.

    The sites that weren’t so bad that I read for a couple weeks were neckbeard chronicals archives and Aaron sleazy’s blog. Both of those guys tried to debunk the seduction community, and one even came up with the term manuresphere. lol Another one that is called blackpillblog formerly omega virgin revolt doesn’t seem as bad as PUA hate either. There is even a guy over there that posts regularly over here. I think his name is paul murray. This is a sample of how they think:

    The “red pills” believe incorrectly that they are anti-feminist, and the delusion that feminism can be solved using personal solutions.  They believe that using game and the paleo diet they can expel feminism from their lives.  This is a delusion.  When Paragon came up with the idea of the “black pill”, he recognized the nature of feminism/women being a systemic problem.  Systemic problems have no personal solutions.  The “black pill” is about that principle and more.  It is about reality as it is and facts.  It stands in opposition to both mainstream feminist delusions (the “blue pill”) and non-mainstream feminist delusions (the “red pill”).  Disagreeing with the mainstream does not automatically make something truth.

     
    These sites are interesting to get a different perspective from guys who gave up, but I wouldn’t try to help any of these guys. They’re too far gone, and they’re never coming back. You can reword giving up anyway you want, but it still doesn’t change anything.

  51. @Bulma78:

    Just a response in observation of Jack Outside the Box’s girlfriend: I mean obviously these young girls in their early twenties

    She’s 24 now.

    are care-free and act this way now……into witchcraft/wicca, spiritual stuff

    Her mother is a priestess, her father is heavily involved in the temple, etc… It’s an inter-generational coven.

    and are cool with banging lots of guys, the threesomes with the mother,

    I’ve never had a mother/daughter threesome. Very few people, even in the poly community, are in to that. Some mothers and daughters live that lifestyle, but you’ll have to work very hard to find them and even harder to get them to give you a threesome. I still haven’t accomplished it. That’s a secondary goal, though. A higher priority for me is fucking a midget.

    or whatever that was all about, and all that crazy stuff; but I wouldn’t be surprised if it is all just a phase

    Then how do you explain the mother? She’s 39 now. She and my girl’s father are in an open marriage, as is virtually everyone else in that circle. As is virtually every politician, high level banker, and any person of influence in our society. They just don’t talk to you about it for obvious reasons.

    and she changes or grows up a little

    This is insulting. You’re implying that her lifestyle – and by implication, mine – are “immature.” Phrasing it like this is societal programming. I get the “grow up” line from mainstreamers all the time. And BD does too. It really is a pathetic thing to say.

    once she’s in her thirties.

    Possible. But again, she’s in a poly community. So is her mom. So is her dad. So is her aunt. So is her uncle. So is her social circle. So are most of the upper class with which she mingles.

    I mean, when I was 23, I wanted to be Kate Bosworth from the movie Blue Crush and move to Hawaii and become a surfer and all that.

    Cute.

    Then I eventually grew out of that phase as I got older………

    Again, let’s contrast the way you are talking about creeping ASD when a woman reaches her 30s vs. how BD talks about it. He describes the process of a woman, who has always been mainstream and blue pill, going through her “wild years” in her teens and 20s, and then eventually succumbing to ASD around age 33. This is true in general with mainstream women. You, however, phrase it as essentially being a “child” and then “growing up” and basically “becoming mature.” Do I have to spell out for you what you sound like?

    but the good thing is once she grows out of it and moves on, there will be some other young, crazy one to take her place at least!

    Correct. I don’t tolerate prudery. This will thus not be a problem for me. My girl is in an intergenerational circle though, plus a member of the upper class, which makes it very unlikely that she’ll all of a sudden turn into the equivalent of BD’s girlfriend when she hits her 30s. But we’ll see. If so, I’ll just dump her ass.

     

  52. @Joelsuf:

    What the actual fuck. I need to look this up, and save it. It’ll be an instant cure if I ever feel down or something. Care to send a link, JOTB?

    The link has been disabled and the two youtube videos showing the gathering/protest before the capital have been deleted. Typical. It was maybe 30 or so guys, and it took place roughly a year ago.

    I tried to find the other youtube video where this disgusting fat guy talks about the upcoming protest in D.C. saying “we’re gonna make it mandatory for women to have a boyfriend,” and just generally rambling, but I couldn’t find it. I’m not wasting my time on it anymore. Sorry.

     

  53. @BD:

    She’s not “cool” with it; she’s not going to bug you about it now because she wants to move in with you (Disney).

    Moving in together is Disney? Really? I’ve always planned to eventually move in with her (since she became an OLTR) because we want to have kids.

    Later she will, and you’ll have to manage that somehow. You’re fucking moving in together. It’s going to happen, and will be more intense the second time around. If you think it’s never going to happen, you’re insane.

    Wow! Okay! You’re on! Now that I’m retired, her and I are going to spend way more time together and move forward with our lives. We’ll see what happens.

    Your GF has some Disney. Not as much as mine, but some.

    Meh.

    You go around telling people to go fuck themselves on my blog, therefore I don’t put any weight on your complaining.

    That’s different than name calling, as you have explicitly admitted. If this means that people can call me names, but I can’t because you’ll ban me, that’s pretty unfair. But whatever man. It’s your show.

     

  54. @Joanna:

    The liberated west has nothing on where I live, polyamoury is RAMPANT here and my area ain’t nicknamed ‘the wild west’ for nothing. We have different terminology though and its widely accepted that there is a ‘main chick’ and then a hierarchy of ‘side chicks’

    Okay, so the men can be wild. What about the women? Are they allowed to sleep with other men without public outrage? Can a woman have a main man, plus secondary men, plus tertiary men? What does your country think of female players?

    and our small town is notorious for being swingers HQ.

    Cool! I might visit someday. In terms of living, however, I’ll stay in the United States. There are technological and freedom considerations that are dear to me (free speech absolutism, etc…) There are also economic considerations.

    Its literally one big fuck fest and it ain’t my scene but its definitely happening since I know many participants. You’d also find plenty of your wiccan ladies here, we also HQ for satanists (I know its not the same as wiccan)

    Sounds like an interesting vacation spot then. But I’m always weary about leaving the West. Before visiting, I’ll have to research your country’s laws, its freedom level (outside of sex: free speech, etc…), and the political stability of your region. If everything checks out though, I might definitely check it out (for vacation purposes).

    HQ for Nigerian drug lords and cocaine trafficking.

    Ouch! That’s not good. This is what happens when you refuse to legalize shit! Physically violent and dangerous people take it over.

    On another note, I always wanted to meat, face to face, one of those African scammers who keeps sending me emails about how I won 50 million dollars and just need to email back my bank account number, my picture ID, and my debit card information so I can have the funds transferred, lol. It would be a nice conversation, I promise.

    There is something for everyone if you’re a hedonist. Basically its Sodom and Gomorrah in this quaint sea side village. Foreigners running around here with goofy smiles on their faces having the time of their lives in a very free society,

    As long as those foreigners don’t have to pay for it. I’m not into prostitution of any kind.

    anything goes here and almost everything is legal or awaiting approval at Parliament.

    Except drugs, apparently. I’m certainly not into any drugs. But I do want them legal so that the violent cartels can be bankrupted. And I think anyone should be allowed to put whatever shit they want in their bodies.

    Just watch out for the 1 in 4 (known) HIV statistics. We call it ‘buying a House in Vincent’ and you don’t want that.

    Yeah, I’m thinking that would be a major deal breaker. Here in the U.S. HIV is mostly just a homosexual problem, despite politically correct propaganda saying garbage like “AIDS does not discriminate,” just to prevent some gays from crying.

     

  55. This might be the best article you’ve ever written

    Thanks dude.

    Supposing that you live in an area where alimony laws are terrible for men (which is most of the country), and that you are not willing to leave the US, which of these options would you recommend?

    That depends on your scenario. How much money you make, your net worth, her income, her net worth, her debts, your debts, whether or not you want to have kids, how long you expect the relationship to last, how old you both are, etc.

    It seems like the unmarried / cohabitation (with a ceremony) or the domestic partnership with a prenup equivalent (depending on the state) are the best options here for most men who stay in the US.

    That’s one option, but you don’t get a prenup if you have a co-habitation agreement. The cohab is your prenup. You can often get prenups with domestic partnerships though.

  56. Moving in together is Disney? Really? I’ve always planned to eventually move in with her (since she became an OLTR) because we want to have kids.

    Then it’s not Disney. It would be Disney it it was her idea and you agreed to it. Sounds like that’s not the case.

    That doesn’t invalidate anything I said though. Indeed, if you’re going to move in with a 24 year-old and starting giving her babies, it increases what I said. You’re going to have to deal with some Disney down the road. I’d bet money on it (though I wouldn’t bet you). Note that I’m not having any babies with PF.

    I’m betting that if your relationship with her lasts long enough, you’ll have some kind of wedding also. Let’s see if I’m right…

    That’s different than name calling, as you have explicitly admitted. If this means that people can call me names, but I can’t because you’ll ban me, that’s pretty unfair.

    Incorrect… Duke didn’t call you a name. He said he might have to in the future. Just like you, he’s weaseling around my rules and walking on the line. If you can do it to other posters, he can do it to you.

    Doesn’t feel that great when you’re on the other side, does it?

  57. Then it’s not Disney. It would be Disney it it was her idea and you agreed to it. Sounds like that’s not the case.

    Yeah, now that I’m retired, I can be a full time father, which makes me happy. I plan on beginning her move to my place at the end of this month (the middle of next month max), after we file the appropriate paperwork with the assistance of my “female mini-me” attorney whom I have trained to replace me (cohabitation agreement, etc…) by the middle of next week.

    That doesn’t invalidate anything I said though. Indeed, if you’re going to move in with a 24 year-old and starting giving her babies, it increases what I said. You’re going to have to deal with some Disney down the road. I’d bet money on it (though I wouldn’t bet you).

    Why wouldn’t you bet me? Not that I want to. I’m just curious.

    Note that I’m not having any babies with PF.

    It’s interesting that she doesn’t want kids, considering her level of Disney.

    I’m betting that if your relationship with her lasts long enough, you’ll have some kind of wedding also. Let’s see if I’m right…

    That’s more far fetched, considering that she already tried to rope me in to a non-legal ceremonial wedding, which I declined as well.

    Incorrect… Duke didn’t call you a name. He said he might have to in the future. Just like you, he’s weaseling around my rules and walking on the line. If you can do it to other posters, he can do it to you.

    Doesn’t feel that great when you’re on the other side, does it?

    You completely misunderstood me. I wasn’t referring to Duke’s joke as name calling (that was just a funny joke). I was referring to various posters here occasionally referring to me as “jack in the box.” That is what he and I were referencing.

     

  58. Why wouldn’t you bet me?

    You can’t bet someone on their future behaviors, because they can possibly control those behaviors just to win the bet or make you look bad. You have to instead bet a neutral third party.

    I wasn’t referring to Duke’s joke as name calling (that was just a funny joke). I was referring to various posters here occasionally referring to me as “jack in the box.”

    Tough shit. Change your name on this blog if you don’t like it.

  59. If you want to know that part of our culture just look up a band called ‘Die Antwoord’ that’s white Afrikaner culture though, the black culture& white english culture are completely different!!! But I’m major off topic now.

  60. Hello Jack Outside the Box,  I guess “grow up” wasn’t the best choice of a phrase for me to use; I didn’t mean to be insulting in any way.  I just think it is normal for people to change as they progress through their early twenties and start getting into their late twenties/early thirties. I just meant that 24 is still young and in 10 years she may change her feelings or start to want to settle down.  It would seem very likely…….but now that you explain her family’s involvement in their temple and the lifestyle she’s been accustomed to all these years, then it is probably likely that she won’t change much.

    Again, let’s contrast the way you are talking about creeping ASD when a woman reaches her 30s vs. how BD talks about it. He describes the process of a woman, who has always been mainstream and blue pill, going through her “wild years” in her teens and 20s, and then eventually succumbing to ASD around age 33. This is true in general with mainstream women. You, however, phrase it as essentially being a “child” and then “growing up” and basically “becoming mature.” Do I have to spell out for you what you sound like?

    Yesterday when I posted that comment, I was pretty sure of what I sounded like and how it came across, but right now, to be honest, I am not sure at all.

    When I said “grow up” that wasn’t the right phrase to use……I can see it was taken very literally and I didn’t mean for it to come across that way.  Yes, I was thinking along the lines of BD’s examples of normal women who have their fun/crazy years in their twenties and then start to settle down when they are in their thirties.

  61. It´s there between the lines but it doesn´t hurt to bluntly stress that whatever research you do before your wedding might easily turn useless since some things will have changed between the marriage and divorce. You may well marry her in a state where prenups are enforceable today only to see the state change laws some time later. Bear in mind it may be after 20 years of legal change and wealth accumulation that you will have to fight over the carcass of your marriage.
    Best not be married AND hide the assets. I hear Brazil now has a law that grants alimony to women based on simple cohabitation, no signature needed.

  62. A lot of guys getting upset about this topic in the last few threads about this seem to think that they can “marry” a woman (co-habituate for many years while using terms like “marry”) without doing ANY Societal Programming shit like rings or weddings or whatever. Unless you’re attracted to extremely masculine women, this is not possible (unless you get very lucky with the exception to the rule; and luck is not a skill). You’re going to have to manage some amount of Disney, or else she’ll eventually leave

    I once had a one-year-and-some love story with a woman. She was a divorced woman, in her early 30s.
    Little Disney was on her mind, while she was very feminine. She was super-romantic in the genuine sense, that is the very opposite of Disney (fiction romantic).

    She was crazy for me, and as I went on why every bit of socially prescribed fiction made no sense and gave no happiness she enthusiastically agreed.
    Seeing how having to play a comedy made me feel was enough for her to forget about every Disney-ish whim.

    Later she left. But not for any Disney-deprivation reasons, and she would have left exactly when she did even with a legal marriage + wedding + whatever.

    So, fairytale love can push every other concern aside from her mind, as long as it last in case of a dreamy woman. It will end after no long (the more intense, the shorter, it’s energy balance after all) but not because you didn’t sign the papers you ought to or buy jewels. It’s not like after she began getting bored she began minding societally programmed customs, not at all, she never had those in mind after the beginning (when I told her how and why I did hate those).

    If I think of post-30 already divorced women, I can confidently say at least 5% of them don’t care about playing fiction at all, provided you raise real enthusiasm in them (and at this point, the most prone to daydream and “leave the world for you” are the most feminine).
    If you look for independence of mind in non-divorced young women, well, then the high-testosterone rule applies.

     

    *Don’t think I need add that even the super-dreamy one who was super-crazy for you will use laws and courts to make you regret having signed any piece of paper when the magic ends.
    So never sign anything and live with her in a house that belongs to your parents instead than you if possible.
    As for children, consider it’ll be a gift from the woman if you can ever meet them: this is a default truth, not a bad luck scenario.

  63. How about marrying a woman that is richer than you?

    I’m being serious.

    As I said in the comment above, you need to carefully evaluate the financial position of both her and you. So yeah, if you make $30K a year and are worth $0, and she makes $150K a year and is worth $2 million, getting a TMM with her is probably fine. However, A) good luck finding that, B) good luck finding that with a woman who is actually somewhat young and/or attractive, C) I have found that women with money tend to demand prenups and similar barriers far more often men with money. (Women have more Disney than men but tend to be less delusional about it.)

    There’s also the issues to your long-term stability as I discussed here. If she has more money than you, than you’re reliant on her. Not Alpha.

    The problem with the “richer than me” argument is that it’s usually applied when a guy makes around $30K and she makes $50K. That’s not “richer” enough to risk TMM.

    I hear Brazil now has a law that grants alimony to women based on simple cohabitation, no signature needed.

    Yep. This is going to get harder and harder for men to do, all over the world. It’s going to get much worse.

  64. Yep. This is going to get harder and harder for men to do, all over the world. It’s going to get much worse.

    Wealthy client of my mate who is a financial planner just died. The judge just gave his bit on the side 1/4 of his estate. He was still married and had adult kids. Never lived together, lived with his wife the whole time and it was basically an affair, but he used to take her out to places and mix with some (not many) of his friends etc so the Judge considered her similar to a wife. Bet the wife and his female children are pissed as F@@k!

     

  65. @Bulma78:

    I just meant that 24 is still young and in 10 years she may change her feelings or start to want to settle down.

    She’s already settled down with me. What are you talking about?

    It would seem very likely…….but now that you explain her family’s involvement in their temple and the lifestyle she’s been accustomed to all these years, then it is probably likely that she won’t change much.

    You mentioned “threesomes with the mother.” And even though I never had an actual threesome with her and her mother, you claimed that her mother is in to threesomes with her daughter (which is true, just not with me because I’m “special” to her – don’t ask). Since her mother is obviously older than 24 (she’s 39), how do you explain this, even though this was before I explained her family dynamic? Did her 39 year old mother not “grow up?” Or something?

    When I said “grow up” that wasn’t the right phrase to use……I can see it was taken very literally and I didn’t mean for it to come across that way.

    Ok.

    Yes, I was thinking along the lines of BD’s examples of normal women

    Normal? LOL! Ok, I’ll let that go.

    who have their fun/crazy years in their twenties and then start to settle down when they are in their thirties.

    The term “settle down” isn’t accurate. If someone is in an open relationship, lives with their partner (which she is about to do) and has kids (which she is also about to do), then how is she not “settled down?” Are you talking about monogamy? If so, are you suggesting BD isn’t “settled down,” just because he’s non-monogamous?

    I assure you, many of us (including myself and BD) are settled down, or are about to settle down. Settling down has nothing to do with monogamy. That’s societal programming.

     

  66. @Marty

    you mean the mistress went to court to get part of his assets after his death ? which state is this if in usa
    for those who know legalities ,curious on which state is Man friendly in USA during divorce

     

     

    Wealthy client of my mate who is a financial planner just died. The judge just gave his bit on the side 1/4 of his estate. He was still married and had adult kids. Never lived together, lived with his wife the whole time and it was basically an affair, but he used to take her out to places and mix with some (not many) of his friends etc so the Judge considered her similar to a wife. Bet the wife and his female children are pissed as F@@k!

  67. Hi BD, I read your book and I am following your blog. Great ideas.In my understanding, in your OLTR marriage or relationship model, you don’t allow multiple MLTR, you allow only FBs. I didn’t try myself so I cannot comment based on my experience but I know currently there are many countries where polygamy is legal and a man can marry religiously (with mutual agreement with woman) or in a government office several woman, as it was the case in history in many part of the world. So, it seems it works. Why you don’t consider a valid or happy case in your OLTR marriage model a man marrying several women? Here what I mean by marrying is building an OLTR relationship, not legal marriage in western sense; you’re romantic with women, love/take care of them like your girlfriend and wife, live with or share homes with them, you may have kids from them. This model is allowed, permissible, and under certain conditions even encouraged, by some religious texts including Bible and Quran.  These women by your definition cannot be called MLTR because you see them may be every day, not once a week, they are like your wife. I think you can have these many OLTR s at the same time if you have time/money etc, and can be still very happy. Can you please comment on why you don’t allow this model or marriage in your system?

  68. In my understanding, in your OLTR marriage or relationship model, you don’t allow multiple MLTR, you allow only FBsIn my understanding, in your OLTR marriage or relationship model, you don’t allow multiple MLTR, you allow only FBs.

    Correct. OLTR means no MLTRs are allowed.

    I know currently there are many countries where polygamy is legal and a man can marry religiously (with mutual agreement with woman) or in a government office several woman, as it was the case in history in many part of the world. So, it seems it works. Why you don’t consider a valid or happy case in your OLTR marriage model a man marrying several women?

    1. What works in the Arabic or African world won’t work in the Western world.

    2. What worked 2000 years ago in Biblical times won’t work today.

    I give advice to men living in the Western world and in the 21st century. If you live in Africa or the Middle East, then what you’re describing might work there and that’s outside of my purview, but having multiple wives would never fly in the West (outside of rare exceptions like Morman extremists, and those guys have high drama tolerances and don’t mind having ugly wives).

    Even if it did work in the West, polygamy is quite expensive and is a huge mountain of constant drama and is thus generally not worth it (in the West that is; I can’t speak for Africa or the Middle East, etc).

  69. You say it doesn’t work in modern world and West but that was my question and you didn’t answer it yet. I agree it’s time consuming and requires more money. But why in your model a man cannot be bonded more than one OLTR if he is rich and have enough time? Let’s assume you want to upgrade two MLTRs to OLTR and these are rich self sufficient mature woman  who agree with this type of arrangement since all is still free to have sex on side having FB etc., which make this actually easier now in West today than Biblical times, or the ones happening in africa and middle east. I don’t understand why this wouldn’t work in West today, and why it’s bad for men or women, having bonded with more than one person. Is that because women won’t allow you to bond with another woman at same level? Can you please be more specific why for a modern man being bonded with 2 OLTR is not good or impossible?

  70. why in your model a man cannot be bonded more than one OLTR if he is rich and have enough time? Let’s assume you want to upgrade two MLTRs to OLTR and these are rich self sufficient mature woman  who agree with this type of arrangement since all is still free to have sex on side having FB etc

    Haha!

    Yes; if you’re rich AND you have plenty of free time AND your 1st wife is rich AND your 2nd wife is rich AND your 1st (Western) wife doesn’t mind you having another wife AND your 2nd (Western) wife doesn’t mind you having another wife AND you find both of these women young enough and physically attractive enough to make them OLTR‘s, then sure, having two wives in the West would probably work, assuming you have a higher drama tolerance.

    Do you see the problem? What is the likelihood all of these conditions will be true? It’s ridiculous.

    Having multiple OLTR‘s in the West isn’t impossible; it’s just ridiculously unlikely, as you yourself demonstrated in your above question.

  71. Thanks for your explanation but I still don’t see the problem assuming you have enough time/money. I guess you mean your western OLTR would not allow or will make a lot of drama out of it if you have another OLTR, but she wouldn’t mind you having sex with lots of FBs on the side, since you’re not romantic with them or bonded. That’s why you upgraded her to OLTR at the first place, she is someone who has low drama and allow you to have FBs on the side. But I don’t understand while you can possibly find an OLTR who will allow you having lots of  FBs on side, but you cannot find (or very difficult ) an OLTR in West who will allow another OLTR? This conditioning and limitation in your model is no different to me than monogamy you continuously argue against which I agree with you that doesn’t work. I guess it’s because of thousands of years of tradition/conditioning  in western societies coming from Roman times and societal programming. In fact you as an expert just about to settle down with an OLTR after some time. I see your point it’s difficult. If you probably tell your current OLTR you are planning to have other OLTR s you probably may not keep her around long. I just cannot grasp western woman’s mind allowing their men having sex with many other woman as long as he doesn’t bond with them. and if she feels you becoming a bit romantic with another one she drops you or give a lot of drama. Since almost all western woman has this mindset you don’t allow multiple OLTR s in your model for the sake of happiness, am I right?

  72. Well BD has said in the past that he has 1 “love box”, 2 affection boxes, and infinity sex boxes, so he can’t be truly in love with more than 1 woman at a time. His system works well for that combination. I’m personally not sure whether I have 1 or more love boxes, but I definitely have more than 2 affection boxes.

    I think Mark’s objections stem from a problem similar to mine when I was objecting to the idea of boyfriend behaviors restricted to OLTRs: I said that I have both a sex drive and a “bf drive” if you like, and that if BD’s system satisfies the sex drive regularly but only satisfies the longing for filling you love box once every decade or so, then it wasn’t adequate for me, as I wanted to indulge in bf behaviors more often, and not doing so had an equivalent effect on my happiness as sexual frustration does. Then again, maybe people with higher “boyfriend needs” than BD also have a higher drama tolerance and just end up being boyfriend-ish with their MLTRs, with all the drawbacks of this. I don’t know if I can find a happy middle in this.

    BTW BD, will you be updating your books for technological novelties (and other) so that they still fully apply, say, in 2020 ? I’ve got The Unchained Man but I will probably buy your big dating bundle at some point.

  73. I guess you mean your western OLTR would not allow or will make a lot of drama out of it if you have another OLTR, but she wouldn’t mind you having sex with lots of FBs on the side, since you’re not romantic with them or bonded.

    That’s not my OLTR, that’s the vast majority of Western women.

    Having your boyfriend or husband have sex with other women is hard enough on a Western woman. The SP doesn’t allow for it. So to soften the blow for her emotionally and to minimize drama and complaints, you commit to only doing so with one night stands or FB‘s. It helps a lot.

    I agree it’s sad we have to do this in the West, but that’s how it is.

    This conditioning and limitation in your model is no different to me than monogamy you continuously argue against

    Incorrect. There is no comparison between an OLTR where you can have all the sex you want on the side, and monogamy.

    I guess it’s because of thousands of years of tradition/conditioning  in western societies coming from Roman times and societal programming.

    Correct.

    If you probably tell your current OLTR you are planning to have other OLTR s you probably may not keep her around long.

    Correct.

    If you probably tell your current OLTR you are planning to have other OLTR s you probably may not keep her around long.

    You’re thinking logically and in a black-and-white, masculine fashion. That’s not how women think.

    Since almost all western woman has this mindset you don’t allow multiple OLTR s in your model for the sake of happiness, am I right?

    Both happiness and odds. You will be less long-term happy with multiple OLTR‘s (in the West) and the odds of you finding attractive women who are cool with this, in the West, is minuscule.

    As always, I give advice to men in the West when applied to normal, everyday Western women. Having a long-term model based around finding a few perfect unicorns is not a recipe for long-term happiness.

    You seem to want this very badly. Move to Africa or the Middle East. Seriously. What you want won’t be a problem over there.

    maybe people with higher “boyfriend needs” than BD also have a higher drama tolerance and just end up being boyfriend-ish with their MLTRs, with all the drawbacks of this.

    Exactly correct. Men with more emotional personalities always always have higher drama tolerances.

    BTW BD, will you be updating your books for technological novelties (and other) so that they still fully apply, say, in 2020 ?

    I’m slowly updating every Blackdragon dating ebook over the next few years, one at a time.

  74. Hi Jack Outside the Box,

    Just fyi, I didn’t put an incredible amount of thought and time into the wording of my comments.  I put what I thought was a decent amount of thought into them, but not a ton.  It seems like I never can seem to get my point across on here.

    I said: “the threesomes with the mother, or whatever that was all about”. The ‘or whatever that was all about’ part meaning that I had a general idea but couldn’t exactly recall what you said and so I apologize, I didn’t scroll back up to re-read it again. 

    The term “settle down” isn’t accurate. If someone is in an open relationship, lives with their partner (which she is about to do) and has kids (which she is also about to do), then how is she not “settled down?” Are you talking about monogamy? If so, are you suggesting BD isn’t “settled down,” just because he’s non-monogamous?

    I assure you, many of us (including myself and BD) are settled down, or are about to settle down. Settling down has nothing to do with monogamy. That’s societal programming.

    I think it’s pretty fair to say that most 24 year olds are not settled down yet.  By “normal women”, I mean women who bang a bunch of guys in college and in their twenties and then slow down with all that stuff once they hit thirty – I also didn’t think that was too farfetched?

    Ok, I’m definitely thinking in terms of monogamy/societal programming here, now that you mention it.  I think I see women who are sleeping with a lot of guys as not settled down for some reason; I know that’s not correct, but it could be depending on one’s definition of settling down?  From the way you describe her, I couldn’t be further from the type of girl that your girlfriend is.  I’m not sleeping with different guys, I’m not about to move in with a guy, I don’t want children and I didn’t inherit a fortune.  I guess she will be settled down once she moves in with you and has a kid.  I already see myself as settled down, even though I’m not doing any of the things that she does or is about to do.

  75. @Bulma:

    I said: “the threesomes with the mother, or whatever that was all about”. The ‘or whatever that was all about’ part meaning that I had a general idea but couldn’t exactly recall what you said and so I apologize, I didn’t scroll back up to re-read it again.

    I know. My larger point was that you mentioned that women tend to have their wild years in their 20s and “settle down” in their 30s, but then you acknowledged the mother’s wild side, whom you presumably knew was older than 30. I was just pointing out a slight contradiction in your own thinking, that’s all.

    I think it’s pretty fair to say that most 24 year olds are not settled down yet.  By “normal women”, I mean women who bang a bunch of guys in college and in their twenties and then slow down with all that stuff once they hit thirty – I also didn’t think that was too farfetched?

    Unfortunately, this is the pattern that many mainstream women are stuck in, yes.

    Ok, I’m definitely thinking in terms of monogamy/societal programming here, now that you mention it.

    Uh huh.

    I think I see women who are sleeping with a lot of guys as not settled down for some reason; I know that’s not correct, but it could be depending on one’s definition of settling down?

    Sure, if “settling down” = mono.

    From the way you describe her, I couldn’t be further from the type of girl that your girlfriend is.

    I know.

    I’m not sleeping with different guys,

    I know.

    I’m not about to move in with a guy, I don’t want children

    It’s interesting how on this blog, the more mainstream women don’t want children, but my girl does.

    and I didn’t inherit a fortune.

    She would say that 12 million dollars is chump change that doesn’t buy much these days. She actually doesn’t see herself as rich (even though she never had a job and doesn’t have to work a day in her life). She describes herself as “comfortable.” Her mom on the other hand…

    I guess she will be settled down once she moves in with you and has a kid.

    Hopefully.

    I already see myself as settled down, even though I’m not doing any of the things that she does or is about to do.

    Yeah, monogamy does seem to have “settle down” instinctively built into its very vibe.

     

  76. Good morning Jack Outside the Box,  thanks for responding to my comment again.  I think you’d be good at the psychology business by the way!

    She would say that 12 million dollars is chump change that doesn’t buy much these days. She actually doesn’t see herself as rich (even though she never had a job and doesn’t have to work a day in her life). She describes herself as “comfortable.”

    I guess it’s all relative because I describe myself as “comfortable” as well.  In these them there parts of the U.S. where I’m from, we’re a little more corn-fed and meager, so it seems like a fortune here; because you can do a lot more with it.  (Oh, and we’re also full of societal programming.)

  77. @Bulma:

    I think you’d be good at the psychology business by the way!

    Life coach baby, life coach! Getting certified as a life coach is actually on my to do list in the coming years as a way to make some chump change on the side. Getting certified is actually a piece of cake. I also have two other alternative methods that I’m contemplating for charging money for red pill advice. It’s all coming in the next two years or less. But first I have a more immediate goal to achieve.

    In these them there parts of the U.S. where I’m from, we’re a little more corn-fed and meager,

    You’re in the South? Well, that explains your conservative attitude towards sex.

    (Oh, and we’re also full of societal programming.)

    Yup. Sad but true. Lots and lots of Disney down there. And religion. Sigh.

     

  78. You’re in the South? Well, that explains your conservative attitude towards sex.

    You will do great as a life coach!  I’m actually not from the south at all, but am in the heartland area.

    Hi Jack Outside the Box,  Sorry to keep this going and I promise I’m done posting after this, besides it’s gotten off subject by now I feel.  I saw your reply from the other thread too and yah, it is hard for me understand how on earth a guy could sleep with another girl without having any feelings for them.  I guess I just have to blindly believe that……but I mean if a guy is having sex with a friend w/ benefits, do they snuggle afterwards? Or just, what?  I mean, snuggling seems pretty affectionate and I’d imagine feelings are involved if they do……and then there’s the kissing/making out before and during sex, so can guys do that too without caring at all and just turn it off when it’s over or does kissing not happen?  Also, could there be some guys who think they can be all macho and just turn off the feelings and then it backfires and turns out they start getting feelings?

  79. @Bulma: there likely is no real off switch, there’s a spectrum. That’s why there are fuck buddies, friends with benefits, low end MLTRs, high end MLTRs, OLTRs… Which reminds me to tell you that even if a guy has feelings for another woman, that doesn’t mean he stops having feelings for the one he’s with. There’s an article on this blog about relationship boxes; basically you’re assuming that men only have 1 love box and 1 or multiple sex boxes; the truth is, some men have multiple affection boxes, and a few even have more than 1 true love box. An open relationship can be based on a variety of arrangements: full exclusivity (bad idea), emotional exclusivity with sexual nonmonogamy, emotional *and* sexual nonmonogamy… but the point is that these things are possible and exist in the real world. I don’t know about how your guy is wired, but my point is he doesn’t have to be a complete sex robot with whoever he might fuck on the side in order to keep his feelings for you.

  80. @Bulma:

     it is hard for me understand how on earth a guy could sleep with another girl without having any feelings for them.  I guess I just have to blindly believe that……

    There is no blindness necessary. This isn’t limited to guys. Plenty of high sex drive women have a harem of men on their rotation just for casual sex. The evidence is right in front of you without any blind beliefs required. You act like this is limited to men. Tons of women have casual sex daily with multiple men without catching feelings. Again, no blind beliefs required on your part. Just open your eyes.

    but I mean if a guy is having sex with a friend w/ benefits, do they snuggle afterwards? Or just, what?  I mean, snuggling seems pretty affectionate and I’d imagine feelings are involved if they do……

    In my conception, there is a difference between a fuck buddy and a friend with benefits. A fuck buddy (known in the poly community as a “tertiary”) is just someone you regularly call for sex and then have them leave afterwards (in some cases, you don’t even know each other’s names). Regular fuck buddies are strictly for the fulfillment of your sexual needs, nothing more.

    A friend with benefits (known in the poly community as a “secondary”) is a true friend whom you also have sex with. Unlike a fuck buddy (whom you have sex with every time you meet, otherwise there’s no point), you don’t have to have sex with a friend with benefits every time. You are true friends, which means you can do non-sexual stuff that friends do together and only occasionally have sex, or regularly (whatever the two of you prefer).

    Yes, two friends with benefits can snuggle after sex, but the affection is born out of friendship, not love. Love is reserved exclusively for the primary.

    and then there’s the kissing/making out before and during sex, so can guys do that too without caring at all and just turn it off when it’s over

    Haha! Wow! Yes, guys and girls do kiss and make out regularly without feelings. Many girls have been known to make out with guys at nightclubs as a way to pass the time and not even know the guys’ names. Casual kissing is even more common than casual sex and, just like casual sex, doesn’t inspire any feelings of any kind.

    Jesus Christ Bulma! You’re really isolated aren’t you!

    or does kissing not happen?

    Most normal people can’t do anything sexual with another person without kissing. Kissing is an integral part to being turned on in the presence of another person. So yes, kissing does happen, even in a one night stand. The only sex without kissing happens with prostitutes and in porn, which is disgusting.

    Also, could there be some guys who think they can be all macho and just turn off the feelings and then it backfires and turns out they start getting feelings?

    Sure. Feminine guys. Beta males.

     

  81. Hi Gil Galad and Jack Outside the Box.  Gil, I’ll have to re-read the relationship boxes story again.  I actually did read it once when it was brand new and honestly I had a really hard time understanding it, but maybe if I read it a few times more it will help, so thanks!

    Jack,  Well I was hoping you’d say once it’s over the guy is like, ok time for you to go, no snuggling and just doesn’t care……and then the thought of two friends w/ benefits snuggling is just, yuck! Well, it’s only yuck if it’s with my guy.  Well I think I know everything for moment at least, and I have to re-read that story about the different boxes again. I only ever made out with a guy I met the same night one time, but I didn’t forget about him after the night was over, I was all infatuated with him after that.  I can see that I am projecting my ways and feelings onto everyone else; what I think is normal, so I have to try to stop doing that.

  82. @Bulma:

    I only ever made out with a guy I met the same night one time, but I didn’t forget about him after the night was over, I was all infatuated with him after that.

    This shows that you have a MASSIVE scarcity mentality, which is unusual for a woman. Imagine a guy who falls madly in love with the first girl he kisses, or the first girl who smiles at him. We would call him needy, and certainly sexually inexperienced. People with abundance mentalities don’t think like you, Bulma. If you’re all infatuated with some random dude that you just made out with, your scarcity frame is breathtaking.

    The belief that the opposite gender is a scarce resource and must be monogamously hoarded like a rare diamond even after just kissing indicates severe limiting beliefs or a gross lack of sexual experience (especially for a woman). That’s why I suggested things like threesomes or whatever. Your own lack of experience and the jealous scarcity perception that it results in is not making you happy. At the very least, you should learn from your more liberated sisters. Men are a dime a dozen.

    I can see that I am projecting my ways and feelings onto everyone else; what I think is normal, so I have to try to stop doing that.

    Beta males have a scarcity mentality. Alphas have an abundance mentality. The more a person thinks that the other gender is a rare, precious, or scarce resource, the more the person thinks like you. The more a person believes that hot and available members of the other gender are in abundance, the less that person thinks like you. Perhaps you should work on your self esteem.

     

  83. Hi Jack Outside the Box,  I think I do a bad job of picking my words when I post these comments. Maybe I shouldn’t have used the word infatuated? I never saw it as I had to latch onto a guy I met that night because that was all I could get so I better hang onto him.  It was more of me feeling excited by the attention and liking that feeling; combined with it coming from the right person, meaning, I thought he was really attractive.  I met that guy while camping.  The other thing is, I’m not making out with random guys because I don’t put myself in those situations in the first place since I’m not into bars and clubs.  I guess if I was into those kinds of places I may have done it more.

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