If you have no interest in OLTR’s or serious (and nonmonogamous) relationships, then feel free to take the day off today. For the rest of you, this is the latest update of what’s going on with me and my girlfriend (OLTR), Pink Firefly. Whenever I talk about this, my web and email traffic experience a boost, so this is clearly something many of you are interested in.

As usual, I will tell you as much as I can, but there are certain details I can’t reveal publicly, particularly financial information (hers or mine) or the really personal stuff on her end.

For more details on Pink Firefly herself and the genesis of our relationship, go read this post. I will not answer any questions in the comments that have already been answered in that post.

March is right around the corner, and that month marks our one-year anniversary of the two of us being serious. (Before that she was a FB for a few years.) During the last 12 months of being “serious,” we had only two arguments, both of them several months ago, late in 2016. I can’t tell you the reasons for the arguments, but in both cases they were A) extremely stupid, minor issues and B) the real problem was not the issue we were discussing, but rather us learning how to communicate with each other.

As I stated before, PF is extremely feminine and on the high end of the emotional scale, and I am extremely masculine and on the (very) low end of the emotional scale. The good news is that this results in an extreme level of attraction between us since opposites tend to attract. The bad news is that we communicate very differently. Fortunately, we’re both older, intelligent, experienced, and very motivated to be with each other for the long-term. Thus, we have both made some adjustments in how we communicate with each other. This is standard relationship stuff.

Something that is not standard, that I learned years ago when I was married, is that it’s actually difficult for a woman to be with a man who is happy all the time. I’m being very serious here. When you’re upset, your natural human inclination is for your partner to be upset “with” you. If instead they are smiling, happy, and even singing to themselves while you’re upset, this might rub you the wrong way.

As a woman, PF is highly verbal and needs to talk her problems out. Per my definition of drama, this is fine as long as the reason she’s upset isn’t me. She knows she can talk to me for as long as she likes regarding any problem or irritation she has in her life, without judgments. I’ve learned not to act too happy when she does this, keeping smartass comments and laughing/singing to a minimum when she has clearly had a bad day. Fortunately, she usually cheers up after talking her problems out and is back to her usual happy self. This is typical for most women (though not all).

NRE was strangely delayed for the two of us, at least it was for me (I think PF would say the same about herself). Instead of having it at the beginning of the serious part of the relationship (last March), it sort of kicked in around last November. Since then, the NRE between us has been crazy and I’m utterly intoxicated with love and desire for this wonderful woman. She’s actually the first woman in my life that I actually miss a little bit when she’s gone. (Seriously. I’ve never “missed” any woman before, even in prior serious relationships.)

But! As always, while I have love and NRE, I don’t have oneitis. I haven’t broken any of my rules, nor made any major compromises, nor will I. As I’ve said before, if you have to make any non-minor compromises for a woman you’re with, that means you’re with the wrong woman. (And remember that for you Alphas, and even many of you betas, promising to never get sexual with another woman is not a minor compromise!)

That leaves minor compromises, and those are okay for an OLTR who has proven herself. One of them was that I have extended the time of the 20 second rule for her to a little longer (a few minutes) in times where she actually is giving me drama (which thankfully has been extremely rare with her). I agreed to do this as long as she promised to keep drama to a minimum, which she has so far. She’s not the lowest-drama woman I’ve ever dated, but she’s certainly in that zone. It’s nice.

Our schedule is pretty regular. She spends the entire weekend at my house and I’ll usually see her once during the week at her place. During some odd weekends, I’ll spend time at her place instead, but usually she’s at my place. As an OLTR, the once-a-week rule no longer applies (that’s for MLTR’s and FB’s only).

Regarding the nonmonogamous aspect, both she and I are, of course, allowed to have sex with others on the side as long as they’re just FB’s and nothing more. I have maintained a small portfolio of regular or semi-regular long-term FB’s throughout the relationship. Several months ago, I actually had the quality problem of having too many of these women for my schedule. So in the last few weeks, I have slowly been nexting them and/or just not contacting them, keeping only the few who have somewhat more reliable schedules.

My goal, as always, is to have just one FB on the side, but this may be impossible since one is too close to zero, and zero is de facto monogamy, which of course is unacceptable, because I like happiness. So my backup goal is to have one FB plus one backup FB to her. Both of these women need to be pretty responsible, and since most of my FB’s are pretty young, I’m not there yet. I hope to be there before PF moves in with me. We’ll see.

Since this is her first nonmonogamous relationship, PF has been patient and understanding with that aspect, but she still doesn’t love it. At one point she was concerned that I was too close to my FB’s. No problem; I just started letting her look through my phone whenever she wants.

The very first time she did it, she found two or three statements I made to a few of them (out of the hundreds she looked at) that she was uncomfortable with. I promised her I would keep the communication to just friendly scheduling and not much else, which I have done over the last few months. She still semi-regularly looks at my phone which is perfectly fine. As an Alpha Male 2.0, I have nothing to hide. I am who I am. Take me or leave me, because I’m never changing.

PF expressed that she felt “gross” that I was having sex with my FB’s in my house, a place she spends a lot of time in. I had already told her that I don’t have sex with FB’s in my bed, which I now consider as “our” bed. This made her feel a little better but I could tell she was still uncomfortable with the idea that sex was going on in other locations in my house.

So, I told her that I would figure out a way to have all sex with FB’s outside the home. I told her that I wasn’t planning on doing this until she moved in with me in a few months (more on that in a minute). However, I said that I would start working on that now, so she wouldn’t have to wait that long. It will take me a few weeks to arrange all of those logistics. I will discuss exactly how I end up doing this in a future post, probably when PF moves in with me. I’m a long-term thinker so I already had all of this stuff planned out years in advance.

This is the final compromise I plan on making for her in this area. Cutting back on the number and frequency of the FB’s (something I wanted to do anyway), letting her look through my phone, and moving the sex outside of my home is going to have to be enough for her (and it seems like it is, though time will tell of course).

Now for the scary stuff. She and I have gone shopping for engagement rings. (EDIT/UPDATE: Listen. Are you listening? Good. If you’re a long-term reader of my stuff, and immediately assume that buying a ring for a woman automatically means monogamy and/or legally combining finances with her at some point in the future, then with all due respect, you’re either an idiot, or you are deeply seeped in false Societal Programming. Calm the fuck down.) Don’t panic. There’s about five ways to get “married” and whatever I’ll do will be Alpha 2.0 compatible, so don’t freak out. The current plan, subject to change, is to get engaged a little later, move in together, and then have some kind of marriage ceremony in a year or two if everything is still going swimmingly. I will give you all the details on these events if/when they happen.

The only solid date we’ve set is April 1st, where, on that day, we will pick a specific date for her to move in, which will likely be shortly thereafter. I can’t tell you why we have to do it that way because it involves both of our personal finances (and personal lives too).

My daughter must move out of my house by September 9th of this year; it’s a deal her and I made. This means there might be some overlap of a few months where I live with Pink Firefly, her dog, my daughter, and her dog. Fuck me. From living completely alone for almost a decade to five creatures living in my house in less than two years. Not a small change. Oh well. At least it will only be a few months, and my house is plenty big enough to accommodate everyone. (Again, having an OLTR was in the plan all along, so I made sure to get a house big enough when I moved last year.)

Nothing else in my life has changed. My Mission continues unabated, my businesses continue to grow, and my plans to move out of the USA by 2025 (if not sooner!) continue just as before. PF is just as disgusted at where our country is going as I am (though some of our reasons are different). At the moment, she really wants us to move to New Zealand because they speak English. NZ is on my short list of countries, but it’s not as cheap as I’d like and taxation would be a problem unless we spent six months there and six months somewhere else (which oddly, was my original plan way back in 2011).

Follow me over at the Caleb Jones Blog if you want all the precise details on my Five Flags plan to move out of the country so I can save assloads of money money on taxes while leaving the slowly dying West behind. Win-win. When the shit hits the fan here, I want to be as far away as possible. Paying all these god damn taxes just so the US government can give my money to people who don’t want to work, or to constantly drone-bomb civilians in the Middle East doesn’t make much sense to me either.

More updates to come, but that’s where things with PF and I stand at the moment. Life is good, as always.

138 Comments on “Girlfriend OLTR Relationship Update – Late Feb 2017

  1. I feel like she’s not going to be happy with those compromises being the final compromises. You fucking other women bothers her.

  2. At one point she was concerned that I was too close to my FB’s. No problem; I just started letting her look through my phone whenever she wants.
    The very first time she did it, she found two or three statements I made to a few of them (out of the hundreds she looked at) that she was uncomfortable with. I promised her I would keep the communication to just friendly scheduling and not much else, which I have done over the last few months.
    So, I told her that I would figure out a way to have all sex with FB’s outside the home.

    Some of the compromises you’re making are worrying me somewhat. But to be honest, I’ve never been comfortable with the fact that OLTR relationships forbid any stuff beyond casual sex. I might be very different when in my forties, but the way I see it now, I would always retain the right to have low-end MLTRs along with some kind of quasi-OLTR or very high end MLTR. Being forbidden from loving anyone else just rubs me the wrong way. When I was 20 I had romantic feelings for a number of girls that was often around 6 and may have peaked at 11 (and above all that there were *also* the girls I only wanted to fuck); obviously it wasn’t love, but it was definitely not the kind of feelings that can be satisfied with a FB arrangement, and I know I will still have part of that disposition ten years from now and am not willing to compromise on it.

    Now for the scary stuff. She and I have gone shopping for engagement rings. Yeah, I know. Don’t panic.

    Would you say that marriage is something *she* strongly wants, and *you* don’t give a shit about/would prefer to avoid ?
    A couple years ago marriage was something you talked about as a pretty remote possibility and you were fine with a very long OLTR without marriage (heck you were fine with MLTR/FBs forever, while acknowledging that at your age you wanted to pair bond). What I’m saying is that you may be compromising too much and that it’s a real alternative to insist on an OLTR without marriage even if that might make her leave (and after all if she loves you, she might stay). No matter the prenups and parenting plans and whatnot, marriage is insanely risky.
    All that being said, I wish you too the very best of course.

  3. I almost fell off the chair after reading this

    She and I have gone shopping for engagement rings. Yeah, I know. Don’t panic. There’s about five ways to get “married” and whatever I’ll do will be Alpha 2.0 compatible, so don’t freak out.

    You’re making a lot of compromises for her. What is she making? I don’t see any.

    Anyways, good luck. Hope your FB‘s will take care of you when shit goes down (it will, unless you’re hiding some crucial details about this relationship from us.)

  4. I feel like teasing you about your unicorn woman and marriage but fuck it. I’m sure you’ve heard it many times before and it’s starting lose its humor even for me.
    So I’ll just wish you good luck on your “marriage” and happiness and be on my way.

  5. Hey BD Have you looked at Spain a lot of English xpats live there foods cheap ,weather is good your not far from the UK fast trains to anywhere in Europe beats air ports anyway all the best for you and your lady! cheers

  6. You’re making a lot of compromises for her. What is she making? I don’t see any.

    Compromises are being made on my end as well. I am not the kind of person who had ever wanted an open relationship; however, I know that if I am going to be with BD that is something that I had to learn to accept. I think it’s a huge compromise to be with someone who fucks other women on the side. I’m not thrilled with this concept, but have learned to accept it. BD is compromising a little on his end by making this a little more comfortable for me by figuring out a plan to start having sex with is FB‘s outside the home.  Also, I am compromising and moving out of the country with BD. I agree with what BD had stated and that I am disgusted at where out county is going. We talked about where the best places to live would be and of all of the places we discussed, I would prefer New Zealand, however, if I had my choice I would stay in the USA where my family and friends reside. I am happy to make these compromises, because I know he is making compromises for me as well.  These compromises mean I get to spend my life with BD, which makes me very excited.  I am certain that there will be more compromises we both have to make along the way, but I am confident that these changes will only make our relationship much stronger.

    @WTF

    Hope your FB’s will take care of you when shit goes down

    Way to be positive! Lol. Good luck to you as well.

     

  7. I’m entertained watching you slide down the slippery slope, seemingly unaware that you are a frog in a boiling pot. Im also wtf about someone who is worried about taxes in the US actually considering New Zealand haha. I used to have a fwb that moved to New Zealand for 5 months. He stopped smoking when he lived there because, due to taxes, cigarettes were $14 a pack.

  8. Hey as long as you’re not getting legally married it should be all good.  As I have to keep repeating to my own friends, I’m not against pair bonding, just against LEGAL marriage.  You can get all the same benefits by doing what you’re planning with much less risk.

    That being said, I’m more in the camp of MLTR/FB‘s for life but things can change as we age.  I’m sure that’s part of what is driving BD’s current plan.

    Best wishes on your adventure BD.   As we all know, nothing in life is permanent and I just hope when the NRE wears off, you have no regrets.  The big difference between Alpha 2.0 and the rest is we at last acknowledge NRE and know that it’s temporary without making any life changing decisions under its spell.

  9. @BD

    Two questions:

    1) It wasn’t clear. Are you planning to get legally married or just go through the motions of the overpriced carbon stone and ridiculously expensive party?

    2) Do you believe you and your lady will remain pair bonded until one of you dies or just for a period of time. I am honestly just curious about what the expectations are especially if people are moving countries away from family and friends for a significant period of time.

  10. The current plan, subject to change, is to get engaged a little later, move in together, and then have some kind of marriage ceremony

    If this means no legal (even nonmonogamous) marriage, then I’m breathing easier, even though you might still be screwed over by cohabitation laws down the line. But I’m gonna harden the line of my previous comment and change “OLTR without marriage remains an alternative” into: “OLTR without marriage is the way”: if we’re talking legally married here, please don’t do it BD. I can’t handle the idea of a fast-forward to 2023 me thinking “Yep, BD was our badass role model back then, but he went down the slippery slope like all the others.”

  11. Reading your story had suddenly made so many things jump into focus for me.  Women believe that being committed and responsible and mature makes them of higher value than flakey party girls who just ride the cock carousel and have fun all the time.  When you get into a relationship with a committed/responsible/mature woman, she assigns a value to herself in her own mind based on these attributes, and when she sees you dally with what she considers a far lesser woman, it’s emotionally upsetting to her, because it calls her own sense of self-worth into question.  If she’s as valuable as she thinks she is, why are you having sex with lesser quality women?  Since you’re having sex with lesser quality women, her own value must therefore not be as high as she thinks.  Cognitive dissonance.

    Seeing all of this laid out this way makes me understand why I gave up on all the open relationship crap and just went back to plain old cheating.  What she doesn’t know doesn’t cause her any cognitive dissonance.  She gets to be the queen and my one and only princess, and I get to fuck the dumb cashier who just got a tattoo and was so eager to show it off that she ripped her shirt off right under the security camera and got fired.  I wouldn’t want a relationship with anybody that impulsive and immature anyway, but watching your dick go in and out of a girl like that is some of the best stuff on earth.

  12. It wasn’t clear. Are you planning to get legally married or just go through the motions of the overpriced carbon stone and ridiculously expensive party?

    It wasn’t clear on purpose. My rule has always been to not reveal any personal financial information publicly, and I do so for several reasons, including the advice of my attorney. I’ve followed this rule for a very long time and I’m never changing my mind on this. Giving out the specific legal details of anything I do with PF violates this rule.

    So I can’t tell you the precise specifics of what I will do. If that isn’t enough information for you, please ask yourself how many other public figures, particularly those using their real names and identities, including those in the manosphere/PUA, are giving you this level of detail regarding their serious open relationship where they have sex with other women besides their girlfriend or wife? You’re welcome.

    Hopefully the point has sunk in.

    Regarding what I can tell you:

    To quote what I said in the last update post I had about this:

    In terms of us actually getting married, some of you seem to think I’m a moron and that I won’t take my own advice. Trust me, I will. I always do. There are about five different ways one can get “married.” I’ll discuss this more in future posts.

    I’m Blackdragon. If you want to think that I’m going to chuck everything I’ve talked about over the last 10 years, you’re welcome to think that, but that would be quite odd on your part, especially considering that my financial life is the most important aspect of my life to me. But as I always say, feel free to think whatever you like. I’ll be over here being happy.

  13. I feel like she’s not going to be happy with those compromises being the final compromises.

    They are the final compromises until she moves in. Once she moves in, there will have to be a few more, on both of our parts. As I’ve said many times, compromise is required if you live with someone. Otherwise you should never move in with a woman, even in your old age.

    You fucking other women bothers her.

    Fucking other women will bother all women (barring a very small percentage, my guess is around 3%, and good luck trying to find someone super hot and low drama within that 3%). It’s par for the course, something you have to accept and manage.

    It like saying “she’ll give you drama.” Yep, she will sometimes. She’s a girl. That’s what they do. If you don’t ever want any, never have any relationship beyond a FB, even in your old age.

    I might be very different when in my forties

    You will. Watch.

    Would you say that marriage is something *she* strongly wants, and *you* don’t give a shit about/would prefer to avoid ?

    Of course.

    You’re making a lot of compromises for her.

    Incorrect; I’ve made three. One of which wasn’t really a compromise since I was going to do it anyway, and another of which I’m only making because I know she’ll be moving in soon. So if you account for those, I’ve made one, and it’s one I don’t even give a shit about (I really don’t care if she looks at my phone).

    What is she making? I don’t see any.

    She’s already explained two of them. There are others, and more to come. She won’t be 100% happy with the legalities of the marriage, for example.

    Hope your FB’s will take care of you when shit goes down

    If what I do fails, there will be a disruption, and then my happy life will continue, my sex life and financial life undamaged. That’s one of the key aspects of the OLTR.

    Hey BD Have you looked at Spain a lot of English xpats live there foods cheap ,weather is good your not far from the UK fast trains to anywhere in Europe beats air ports anyway all the best for you and your lady!

    I love visiting Europe but I will never live there, for reasons I’ve already described in detail. Europe is collapsing even faster than the US. I’ve even told guys in Europe to get out now, rather than wait a few more years like I’m doing.

    I’m entertained watching you slide down the slippery slope, seemingly unaware that you are a frog in a boiling pot.

    What damage are you concerned will happen to me if this doesn’t work?

    Im also wtf about someone who is worried about taxes in the US actually considering New Zealand haha. I used to have a fwb that moved to New Zealand for 5 months. He stopped smoking when he lived there because, due to taxes, cigarettes were $14 a pack.

    Income taxes, not VAT taxes. Read my five flags article for more details.

    And I don’t smoke cigarettes, because I’m not a dumbfuck.

    That being said, I’m more in the camp of MLTR/FB’s for life but things can change as we age.  I’m sure that’s part of what is driving BD’s current plan.

    Yeah. If this doesn’t work, I’ll forget about OLTR for a while, focus on my work, and stick with MLTRs/FBs until my 50’s, then perhaps try again. I turn 45 in April.

    As we all know, nothing in life is permanent

    Correct.

    The big difference between Alpha 2.0 and the rest is we at last acknowledge NRE and know that it’s temporary without making any life changing decisions under its spell.

    Bingo, and well summarized.

    Do you believe you and your lady will remain pair bonded until one of you dies or just for a period of time.

    Just a period of time. Believing in forever marriage is Societal Programming and Guy-Disney (and stupid). It would be nice to be with her for the rest of my life, but planning on it is something different.

    I have laid out some length goals for our OLTR that are pretty specific, and they’re all measured in years. I’ll cover those in a future post about this.

    I am honestly just curious about what the expectations are especially if people are moving countries away from family and friends for a significant period of time.

    As I’ve said before, we plan on spending significant time in the USA even after leaving, perhaps as much as two months in the summer. Hopefully this will help. And if it doesn’t, it doesn’t. I’m not worried.

    When you get into a relationship with a committed/responsible/mature woman, she assigns a value to herself in her own mind based on these attributes, and when she sees you dally with what she considers a far lesser woman, it’s emotionally upsetting to her, because it calls her own sense of self-worth into question.

    I think that’s accurate to a degree, sure, but the severity of this really depends on the woman.

    If she’s as valuable as she thinks she is, why are you having sex with lesser quality women?  Since you’re having sex with lesser quality women, her own value must therefore not be as high as she thinks.  Cognitive dissonance.

    Yeah. I’ve logically explained why not only to PF, but every other serious relationship (mostly high-end MLTRs) I’ve ever had. The problem is, logic doesn’t work on women in these contexts, even if they’re very smart, and even if they completely logically understand it, they’re still not going to be thrilled with it on an irrational/emotional level. (Thanks, Societal Programming!)

    Again, just something you accept and manage, or don’t bother with any pair-bonding at all, or be a liar/cheater. Pick your shitty option!

    Seeing all of this laid out this way makes me understand why I gave up on all the open relationship crap and just went back to plain old cheating.

    Yes. Very common. You’ll never be long-term happy though.

    What she doesn’t know doesn’t cause her any cognitive dissonance.  She gets to be the queen and my one and only princess, and I get to fuck the dumb cashier who just got a tattoo and was so eager to show it off that she ripped her shirt off right under the security camera and got fired.

    And you’ll have to spend the rest if your life hiding who you really are. And you’ll have to lie to the very woman you profess to love and care for. And you’ll have to worry about getting caught all the time. And you’ll get caught. And you’ll have drama. And the relationship will fail badly. And you get to do it all over again with the next woman you lie to. And on, and on.

    Cheating is certainly an option and many Alpha 1.0’s choose it, but it’s not the path to long-term happiness.

  14. Per my definition of drama, this is fine as long as the reason she’s upset isn’t me.

    You see, this is more than likely the reason I probably won’t ever be in a long term relationship. I don’t tolerate this at all. Its one thing for me and a chick to bitch about stuff and then laugh about it or whatever, but if I have to tolerate her complaining about stuff that just drags me down, me being the source or not, I’m outta there.

    I’m entertained watching you slide down the slippery slope, seemingly unaware that you are a frog in a boiling pot.

    I think BD is aware otherwise he wouldn’t have FBs. As soon as the relationship starts to suck he’ll be gone and will go right to his FB. Its the ones who are locked into relationships with no other options who are unaware. This is the route MGTOW take as well, as they are “locked down” by internet porn and trolling people online, and not “poke fun” trolling, I’m talking about the blatant insulting and cheap baiting and meme spamming that amateur trolls do.

  15. You would have absolutely SLAMMED someone for saying “we go engagement ring shopping but don’t worry its different” a few years ago.

    Completely incorrect. I’ve talked to tons of guys who have done this correctly and congratulated them for it. For the past many years, if any one tells me they’re getting engaged, I don’t attack until I get answers to two questions:

    1. Are you sexually monogamous with this woman?

    2. Are you legally combining finances with this woman or otherwise threatening your long-term financial security?

    If I get a no to both answers, then I’m happy with the guy’s choice (provided he’s not too young). If I get a yes to either answer, THEN I slam, and fuck yeah, I slam hard. But I can’t slam until I get that information.

    As is typical with the dogmatic, the ideology continually shifts as is personally necessary for the ideological holder, while he simultaneously preaches that nothing has changed

    Tell me exactly what I have changed my mind on. Be very specific, please.

  16. Kudos BD (and PF) for laying your experiment out for us to watch. I must get my popcorn!

    The main thing I’m concerned about is you and PF making these plans when you are both deeply in NRE. Shouldn’t you wait until NRE is over or at least died down?

    I really dont think PF likes you fucking anyone else AT ALL. I was expecting her to be a badass-dont-give-a-shit type girl version of you. Which may work, but you probably wouldn’t fancy her.

    You liking the feminine type girls (like me) probably means that we wont find anyone who will be longterm happy with this.

    @PF

    Please be cool with BD fucking other girls. He is being totally upfront. I am rooting for you to cut him some slack and find a way within your own mind to stop with the demands (looking through the phone is a BAD idea) It would be a lovely blueprint for the rest of the world :). You would be the HOTTEST girl alive. I suggest getting some different cock yourself and throwing all your jealousy and suspicion at him. You can scream and shout at him and he’ll put up with it if you are as hot as BD says you are. When he has enough, then get another guy.

    Im surprised Lovergirl hasnt given you some suggestions in this department.

    Come on guys lets give PF some encouragement.

    I think she’s going to need it.

     

  17. Relax your sphincters, folks. He’s not getting legally married. He can’t say it here because PF will hit him with a frying pan lol.
    BD, are you going to tell us if PF is fucking other men? Or at least give us a little hint? Pretty please? I remember past posts about how your last “girlfriend” liked to bang black guys (if memory serves). Anything like that going on here?

  18. Caleb. You have always said in your podcasts and posts that an OLTR is a different animal to having a couple of MLTR‘S. So maybe it’s a bit of an adjustment for you after living that life for 10 years! You’re about to enter a different world and there will always be a tiny bit of turbulence when you do that.

  19. Bd, once you stated that your social life is pretty much non existent.  Do you mind explaining what you been by that? do you not have many freinds ? if so why not? how often do you guys hang out or talk on the phone?  Im just curious why its non existent on your SLA.

  20. Heya BD,

    Moving to nz should be pretty good for you, because you run your own business.

    In terms of income tax for the middle class, our socialist left wing system rapes you hard if you work a high income job. If you’re self employed, you could get it down to 11% by playing the system right.

    If you don’t mind where in nz you live, I’d recommend not living in Auckland – housing is overpriced – look at somewhere like wanganui or whangarei.

    If you do move here, it’d be good to finally meet you!

    Cheers,
    SB

  21. oh boy! a girl going through my phone, is definitely a nonono….And definitely not “alpha”

    looking at “engagement rings” wtf….

    This will not end up well… Good luck!

  22. Some of you need to re-think this concept in a more rational and logical way.

    Assuming that you meet someone that in all or mostly all aspects satisfy or better your life, it would be idiotic not to keep that person around. However it has to be a WIN-WIN deal in the sense you get more than you sacrifice and/or you sacrifice nothing (freedom, money, sex , emotional attachement and the list goes on)

    IME, the MTLR lifestyle is the best choice, you sacrifice virtually nothing whereas OLTR, LTR and FBs you will have to compromise.

    I don’t think BD’s arrangement is bad at all but I do question the level of exposure of PinkFirely to his FB business. When done right, a very good chunk of women will accept their man sleeping it around, however what they would have a very hard time with, is to have it constantly displayed.

    An MLTR once told me  << I know you sleep with other women, I’ve accepted it because I have strong feelings for you but you don’t need to put it in my face >>

    Things such as her going through your texting, knowing who the FBs are , where / when you sleep with , what activities go on will just stew over until one day her emotional side overrules whatever ‘logical ‘ agreement you  have.

    I would dial back on her exposure.

  23. Hey BD.

    I’m wondering why you would even bother with the discussion of marriage (in any form) at such an early point in your relationship? It just seems unnecessary. Is it a big issue with PF? If so – why?

    Also, Im sure you are very aware of common law rules in your state and are watching your own back. In my state, however, agreeing to be married is one of the three qualifying factors. The second is “holding yourself out as married”, and of course the third is living together. I’m afraid that by doing the things that you are doing that a man in this state might be declared “common law” despite any other paperwork that he had in place. In fact he may be better off with a prenup marriage or by simply getting a cohabitation agreement and just living together.

    In any case I’m sure you have probably considered this from every angle and I might consider it some day as well if there is a way to do it without jeapordizing my finances. I look forward to hearing about the other ways of getting “married”

  24. What BD is experiencing with PF is exactly what I would expect. You can see it in her words. She HATES HATES HATES that he fucks other women.

    I think it’s a huge compromise to be with someone who fucks other women on the side. I’m not thrilled with this concept…

    The cost and logistics of not being able to have a FB at your house to me would be a deal killer. Having a woman (any woman) go through my phone and give me a hard time about how I text another woman…yea that is never going to happen.

    In my experience getting someone to act against their nature and wants (PF not wanting BD to fuck other women is not a “nice to have” for her…it is a much bigger compromise) has costs and drama. It just takes time for them to come out. The higher your relationship exit costs (like living together or moving to another country together) the more cost and drama you will have to deal with.

    It does seem like BD had done his homework as usual and thought it through but I can’t help feeling like the “boiling the frog” comment another commenter made might be more accurate than BD thinks.

    This will be an interesting thing to follow.

  25. Imo demanding to go through your phone and check your txts to your FBs like that is bordeline controlling and passive aggressive behaviour and is worthy of a soft next. I’m kind of shocked you allowed it, i know you don’t give a shit and have nothing to hide but this will not help things at all and i can see serious drama heading your way somewhere down the line. That on its own is drama to me.

  26. I see a lot of comments about the fact that I don’t like BD fucking FB’s on the side. My response to that is of course I don’t like it. Any normal woman who is in love with their boyfriend and who is planning to marry him does not actually want him fucking other women on the side, especially now during the NRE phase. I am more understanding to the fact that after NRE has passed and/or we have been married awhile he will want to fuck women on the side but right now I’m not thrilled with it. I understand we have an OLTR but that does not make it any easier. I’m not going to lie, sharing your longer term partner with other women is not easy but I’m willing to except that to be with him. Like BD stated earlier, it’s pretty normal for a woman to not like their boyfriend fucking other people. I have never been in an open relationship before, so this is all new to me. But like I said, compromising to be with BD is well worth it, he makes me very happy. I think as time goes on, this will become easier for me.
     
    As far as comments about BD fucking women at his house, I think it’s perfectly acceptable to ask that he does not fuck other women in the house I share with him. BD understands this and as well.

    The phone checking was not a demand on my part, BD said he had nothing to hide and it does not bother him that I look at his phone. We don’t have any secrets
    @Jarod

    I’m wondering why you would even bother with the discussion of marriage (in any form) at such an early point in your relationship? It just seems unnecessary. Is it a big issue with PF? If so – why?

    It is not an early point in our relationship. We have known each other for three years and have been together as an OLTR for one year now. Of course marriage is my idea not BD’s, he would be just fine to not ever be married again. I have always believed in marriage though and have wanted that for a long time. BD knows how important marriage is for me and he is willing to move forward with that step.  
     

  27. Pink Firefly what do you mean you always believed in marriage? What exactly does getting married do to benefit the relationship in your eyes?

  28. Let’s give PF a break. IMO this is mostly about BD not her. She’s always wanted to get married, and I’ve always wanted to go to Alpha Centauri, it’s not like I can logically explain why, it just always sounded cool to me. I also want a light saber. This blog was never about having a logical debate with women so that they act how we want. The only thing I’m worrying about here is, is BD going to follow his own advice. I’m probably a dumbass for thinking there’s any danger, but I can’t help worrying about it, even though he’s probably the least at risk of us all. I hope I never crack and go beyond unmarried OLTR status, but he’s more qualified than me to cross that line and make it work.

  29. Two points before I get to the responses.

    1. Just like when I talk about losing weight, whenever I talk about OLTR marriage, I get a bunch of commenters warning me about things I already know, have already researched in detail, have already accounted for, and have already done. In many cases I’m more knowledgeable about the item than the guy warning me about the item is.

    These comments are okay, since it’s good for the lurkers out there to be aware of these aspects for if/when they attempt something like this themselves. But it terms of worrying about me, while I’m touched, you don’t have much to worry about. As just one example…

    2. If you are really worried that I’m doing this, paint a reasonable worst-case scenario. It would look something like this…

    PF moves in, and at some point down the road she wakes up one morning and decides something that was acceptable is now horribly unacceptable (which I completely agree is possible). She goes on to throw titanic drama at me, as a pattern of behavior, for a few weeks, without stopping, despite my warnings and drama management techniques (which I agree would be extremely irritating). I would then move her out, (which I agree would be a huge pain in my ass for 30-60 days), and do so within the parameters of the enforceable legal paperwork we both signed, and within the laws of our local city that I had already researched and accounted for. Then my usual happy life would go on; my sex life would go on with FBs (and eventually some new MLTRs), and my income and investments would remain untouched and undamaged. I would also be more knowledgeable about co-habiting nonmonogamous relationships, which would help me greatly in the future, both personally and financially as Blackdragon.

    If that scenario terrifies you, then great. It does not terrify me.

    Your responses:

    I feel like teasing you about your unicorn woman and marriage but fuck it

    Name one thing I’ve ever said that shows I think PF is a unicorn woman. Be specific please.

    I love her very much, and she has many flaws, just like I do.

    The main thing I’m concerned about is you and PF making these plans when you are both deeply in NRE. Shouldn’t you wait until NRE is over or at least died down?

    These plans were made last year before the NRE ever started. The NRE has not changed the plans one iota. Everything is proceeding according to a long-term plan, set in motion quite a while ago.

    I realize that’s an odd order for these things to occur, but that’s how it happened.

    I was expecting her to be a badass-dont-give-a-shit type girl version of you. Which may work, but you probably wouldn’t fancy her.

    I am not attracted to women like that. I like really pretty, feminine, girly girls. (An conundrum, to be sure.)

    You liking the feminine type girls (like me) probably means that we wont find anyone who will be longterm happy with this.

    Likely correct.

    Im surprised Lovergirl hasnt given you some suggestions in this department.

    Not going to happen; Lovergirl is jealous. Not necessarily of Pink Firefly, but of what I have with her. I can imagine Lovergirl’s head exploding if she ever saw PF’s wedding pics. 🙂

    BD, are you going to tell us if PF is fucking other men?

    No.

    I remember past posts about how your last “girlfriend” liked to bang black guys (if memory serves).

    Haha, yes, she did. She didn’t do it consistently though; she just had one or two “spurts” of side-activity during the relationship. During much of the relationship she didn’t fuck anyone but me. As I talk about in my book, women are not constant horndogs like men are. They have sexual ups and downs.

    You have always said in your podcasts and posts that an OLTR is a different animal to having a couple of MLTR’S.

    Correct. Very.

    So maybe it’s a bit of an adjustment for you after living that life for 10 years! You’re about to enter a different world and there will always be a tiny bit of turbulence when you do that.

    Correct again. I expect a few (minor) headaches and problems to overcome as I make this transition. Without question, it’s a huge life change for me. That’s why I’m being very careful and taking it very seriously.

    Bd, once you stated that your social life is pretty much non existent.  Do you mind explaining what you been by that?

    I have no friends that I regularly spend time with who have nothing whatsoever to do with sex, work, or family. I have friends, but almost all of these people are people involved in one of those three groups. So usually when I hang out with these people, I’m in my financial life, woman life, or family life, rather than my social life.

    Some have misconstrued me saying I have no social life as me saying I have no social contact with others. Holy shit, the opposite is true; I’m interacting with other human beings all the time, on a daily fucking basis, and I mean in real life, not online (though online too of course). So much so that I’d actually like to spend less time with people in my real life. It’s one of my goals.

    Moving to nz should be pretty good for you, because you run your own business.

    Only if I spent 6 months there at a time, which I’m possibly willing to do.

    In terms of income tax for the middle class, our socialist left wing system rapes you hard if you work a high income job. If you’re self employed, you could get it down to 11% by playing the system right.

    11% is way too high. My goal is to get my total taxes to 4% or below. 0% is ideal (but unlikely).

    If you do move here, it’d be good to finally meet you!

    I’ll be doing seminars there next year. 🙂

    oh boy! a girl going through my phone, is definitely a nonono….And definitely not “alpha”

    Not Alpha 1.0 you mean. If you were 1.0, you’d lock your phone and cheat on her and live in constant fear that she might found out. Sound familiar?

    This will not end up well

    You are a high-drama Alpha 1.0 with a history of cheating, drama, and emotionally difficult breakups. If I want to learn how to bang girls and dance clubs, I’ll come to you; you’re good at that. But in terms of getting your input regarding happy relationships, I’m going to stay as far away from you as possible. Thanks anyway.

    I would dial back on her exposure.

    We spent the entire weekend together last weekend, the first time we had seen each other in a week, and she didn’t ask to look at my phone the entire time. (I’m sure it’s possible she looked at it without mentioning it, but normally I would know because she either asks to or mentions it.)

    She’s aware that looking at my phone will probably upset her, so she doesn’t do it nearly as often today as when she first started. In other words, if you have a woman who is reasonably intelligent and reasonably self-controlled, she will be aware that exposure to this stuff will upset her and she’ll consciously stay away.

    And if she doesn’t, she doesn’t. Her decision; not mine.

    I’m wondering why you would even bother with the discussion of marriage (in any form) at such an early point in your relationship?

    Early? We’ve been having sex since early 2014.

    Im sure you are very aware of common law rules in your state and are watching your own back

    Correct. I’ve got it covered.

    The cost and logistics of not being able to have a FB at your house to me would be a deal killer.

    Then you will either never have a live-in OLTR, or you will spend your life looking for a unicorn woman who doesn’t exist.

    Again, you need to be realistic as to what today’s Societally Programmed women will accept and not accept, long term, in a live-in relationship.

    Having a woman (any woman) go through my phone and give me a hard time about how I text another woman…yea that is never going to happen.

    That doesn’t happen and now you’re misquoting me. I as I said in the article above, she can look at my phone, but I’d better not hear one drip of complaining about it. And if I do, her phone-looking days are over. PF and I have already discussed this.

    It does seem like BD had done his homework as usual and thought it through but I can’t help feeling like the “boiling the frog” comment another commenter made might be more accurate than BD thinks.

    Read above about the (reasonable) worst case scenario.

    demanding to go through your phone and check your txts to your FBs like that is bordeline controlling and passive aggressive behaviour and is worthy of a soft next

    That isn’t what I said and that isn’t what happened. What’s with you fuckers misquoting me all of a sudden? Read the words I type, please. She never asked to do it; it was my idea and I proactively offered it to her.

    If she had demanded I do that, then fuck yes, that would have been drama and would have been worthy of an instant soft next, if not a downgrade from OLTR to MLTR.

    I think as time goes on, this will become easier for me.

    That’s another aspect I haven’t touched on yet, but I will in future posts.

    In my long experience with nonmono relationships, it’s hardest at the outset, and over time it becomes easier, not harder.

  30. I can see why you (PF) would prefer to be married. That is typical SP for women. BD, however, regularly writes that relationships cannot be expected to last forever. If he truly believes this, I just wondered why he would place himself in a situation that may require lawyers to extricate himself at some point?

    Why make a decision that might not make him “long term happy”? Of course, he has not talked about the specifics of the union so there may be things that I dont understand.

    If it were easy to get married and later divorce if necessary without huge financial losses then I would not question it, but how many men have had this experience with divorce? It is usually very costly and emotionally draining. Not the kind of things that would make me happy.

  31. So…is the April 1st thing ironic? As in, this whole engagement thing is a joke? Or a half joke?

    I have a feeling that this post and the comments are going to cause your third incident of drama with PF.

    Here’s my prediction, if you want it.

    PF is in her 30s, no kids and claims not to want any “anymore”, has a job and is still hot. One thing to understand is that outside of markets like NYC where single women are at a huge ratio-based disadvantage, in mid-size cities like Portland, a woman who fits that profile is likely to be in INSANE demand in the *relationship* market. Before Wolf-of-George-Street or anyone freaks out at me about depreciating SMV, yes, I’m aware a 37 year old woman does not have a SMV as high as a hot 22 year old but the *relationship* demand for her is basically at its peak, as far as lack of competition and quality of offers. And I would know this because I am that woman and my *relationship* options have never been as high.

    And that isn’t because I’m so great (or anyway I’m no better than I was 15 years ago), however, the pool of my competition is way smaller since every other woman in her 30s either already has kids or wants them, ASAP. And many are no longer hot. So if you are still hot AND you don’t have any kids AND you truly don’t want any, AND you have a self-supporting job and nice lifestyle…which means in essence that you ask nothing of a man with respect to investment, other than his attention and companionship, but you still get them hard…then you will have men banging down your door with relationship offers. I am going to assume that is the boat PF is in.

    But by refusing to get monogamous with her, BD has made himself into the ultimate challenge for her. Add to that the fact that she has never been married and therefore still romanticizes it and cares about “achieving” it. Right now the idea of locking down BD to her is like Christmas is to a kid a few days beforehand. He has definitely played this to his advantage and has not only her interest but has her chasing after him and trying to lock him down. That’s all to be commended.

    I would imagine that if they go through with marriage, it will naturally be a big letdown, much like the few days after Xmas, but so long as they have a pre-nup and don’t have kids, it isn’t really a big danger or detriment to either of them. Perhaps his refusal to be monogamous will have the intended effect and keep her chasing him forever. PF is clearly a gal who likes a challenge.

    Anyway, young people can afford to be idealistic but age does require compromise and when one meets someone who it’s clear is the best you will ever get, it’s very, very difficult to let someone like that go. They can tell when they’re that person and they will chip away at you. It’s fine. There’s no real harm here to either of them, breaking up a relationship that isn’t intertwined financially or with children isn’t the worst thing in the world. Now if BD comes on here in six months and says woops she’s pregnant, that will be a different story.

    But honestly, I think this post reads worse than it is because of the engagement ring talk which is so out-of-character sounding for BD that it it’s a bit disconcerting to read. But then I thought about it and so long as the ring is within whatever budget he’s comfortable with (knowing him I assume it will be cheap), there’s not much risk here and she is compromising quite a bit considering she is willing to move to another country with him. And knows he sleeps with others. There is no fucking way I would move to another country (not even another state or city!) for a guy and I don’t care how brilliant he was or whether his dick was made of steel. That is a huge deal. The open relationship part is probably driving her insane and keeping her from sleeping well at night, I’m guessing. Which of course is not all bad.

    Anyway, it sounds like a pretty even match-up and balance between the two of them where they both have reason to stay motivated to keep the other, so I think he’s done about as well for himself as he could’ve hoped. And that’s about as close to sappy and saying “congrats!” that you’ll probably ever get me to say to someone. 🙂

  32. @azog says

    Of course PF isn’t fucking other men. If she did that then she would have no moral high ground to say she preferred that BD didn’t fuck other women. Trust me that is not high ground she is going to give up any time soon.

    That’s Women 101. lol

  33. BD I think this post has made readers nervous because you said “here’s the scary part”, framing something as scary, and then named something scary. Honestly, it isn’t that bad once you think it through but it reads like wow she is really pushing him and he’s falling for it. That was my initial response. Then after I thought about it and read what she wrote, it became clear that you’re not really at risk and if anything you are getting a good deal here. She is still capable, if she wanted to, to get some older very rich guy to marry her and then wait it out or divorce him or have a kid with him. She could but she isn’t, she’s giving her remaining desirable years to you and you’re not giving up much, so this is actually a good deal for you. You’re both giving something up, you’re both compromising, you are both clearly “in love” and motivated to keep the other. The big danger zone is when people are not evenly matched and you guys sound well matched.

    The only warning sign, I think, is that she’s never been married and therefore may still be a bit idealistic and blinded about that.

    Someone wise once told me that getting married without the intention of having children or acquiring an inheritance is like handcuffing an empty briefcase to your wrist.

    But I have confidence that you’ve totally analyzed the costs and risks here, and the risk of divorce isn’t really a big deal for marriage without kids or entangled finances. I’ve known guys who divorced without kids and it wasn’t much different than any other breakup.

     

  34. BD I think this post has made readers nervous because you said “here’s the scary part”, framing something as scary, and then named something scary.

    I understand that, but people still need to use their brains. Any regular reader of this blog who thinks that buying someone a fucking ring must equal monogamy and/or legal combining of finances, is just being stupid.

    I treat this blog as a thinking man’s blog; a blog for smart men who analyze things rationally. A few of the above comments (not all of them, but a few of them) demonstrate that a lot of men still can’t use their brains when it comes to this topic, and are too consumed with either fear-based irrationally or deeply ingrained Societal Programming.

    The word “marriage” means whatever the fuck you want it to mean. It doesn’t have to automatically equate to what your grandma says it means.

  35. @Kryptokate

    We’ll said, I love it! You have decribed us to a “T”. You are right about so many things, including the budget for the ring! 🙂

    This whole thing may sound scary to the many readers and even for BD and myself, but it’s also very exciting too. I think BD and I both are getting a good deal here:)

  36. The idea that I would be “jealous” of two people I’ve never even met getting married is just so bizarre that I can’t really comment on it. Wtf? Lol. Nope. Sorry. I don’t give a rats ass.

    I also am not the least bit “concerned” for you BD. I just find it amusing to see you getting betaized and all your rationalizations for it. Score one for women everywhere because men all eventually succumb. So much for being “not like the rest”.

    I see Skills gets what I am talking about. There is no “alpha” man I have ever met that would allow a woman to go through his phone and tell him what she does and doesn’t deem appropriate conversation with other women.

    You don’t seem to realize that you are convincing yourself of all these reasons to drop your current fuck buddies because that is exactly what Pink Firefly wants you to do. Pretty soon they will all be gone and your only option will be paying for sex (hence the recent article suggesting that it might be appropriate in the future).

    No fuck buddy who knows you are allowing your girlfriend to read her personal messages to you is going to stick around. That’s an invasion of her privacy and one of the reasons many women would rather fuck a cheating man than one in an open relationship. Women value discretion and we don’t like other women intruding on our intimacy with a guy we are fucking, even casually.

    The fact that you are being all cutesy and ready to take on multiple dogs and engagement rings and talking about how much you miss and love this woman and want to marry her after only a year is like betaization on crack. It’s fun to watch.

  37. To the person who wondered why I am not giving Firefly advice- why would I? She’s well on her way to getting exactly what she wants. She doesn’t need my help. BD is so afraid of losing her that he is bending over backwards and will soon be de-facto monagamous, even if he doesn’t admit it on here. Hes already lost interest and time to keep many of his former fuck buddies. She is definitely not fucking anyone else and I would be willing to bet money he’d have a really hard time with it if she did.

  38. @Lovergirl

    I find it absolutely hilarious that every single time BD calls you out on something (jealousy this time) you go right ahead and prove him right in the very next comment. Every single fucking time without fail. It’s amazing.

    It’s very obvious from your above comments that it would make you very happy if BD failed and Pink Firefly messed up his life. You would be right all along and BD would be the beta he always was. I may be wrong but judging from your comments it sure looks like you are jealous.

    BD has always talked about how it is impossible to make live-in OLTR work long term without making any compromises. I have read a lot of his stuff and as far as I can see he hasn’t broken any of his rules. I have yet to see anything that would indicate that BD is going down. I’m not saying it’s impossible but for now there is no reason to be worried.

  39. @Lovergirl

    Mike drop! lol

    Actually, Lovergirl just made herself sound like a lunatic. I thought BD was being juvenile when he said she was jealous, but she’s raving exactly like a jealous woman would. She’s been squawking about this ever since BD started talking about Pink Firefly.

    I also believe Lovergirl, our resident snowflake, is mistaken in her entire analysis. I think Pink Firefly IS fucking other men and BD is white knighting it, in his own way, and is hiding it to not embarrass her. If Pink Firefly is as hot as BD says and is as aggressive as Krytokate implies how could she not be getting some side action?

  40. I would argue that the letting her look through you phone thing is the only compromise mistake you have made here.

    I am totally honest and my girlfriends know that I have other girlfriends too.

    I don’t lie. I don’t cheat. I don’t do jealousy / possessiveness and I don’t do drama.

    In that respect I am a lot like you but a few years older than you.

    The reason why it’s a mistake is because you are supporting her right to feel fearful.

    When you have an unfenced relationships (what you would call an OLTR) you are entering into an agreement where jealousy / possessiveness is not allowed and, if you do it, then you are cheating because you are going back on the agreement.

    Might work in the short term to calm her fears today but it can be the thin end of the wedge. Next it’s looking through your emails and the next thing you know she might feel she has the right to feel fearful about all kinds of things.

    Please note that this comment is not specifically about you and her but rather a general “good way to deal with this situation” that is not specific to any particular coupling.

  41. I don’t think Lovergirl is raving at all.  I see the signs too.  But BD needs to do this to live, learn, revise ideas etc.  I think we’ll all learn something.  Even if he makes mistakes, he’ll fix them and move on.  If anything, he’s resilient.

  42. @lovergirl is flying off the handle just a tad… and I mean just a tad! But her content is pure. And she’s right. I’ve never seen so much rationalization from BD ever! Looking through your phone? Come on son!

  43. With that being said let me shed some positivity on this.. I applaud u BD for being so transparent. You are giving everyone insight on how open relationships really work and that information is golden. Thanks a ton

  44. Hi BD!

    I hope it works for you and PF. You´ve helped me to transition to Aplha 2.0 and I´ll always be grateful. Some thoughts:

    1. I´d be interested in your new “pick up´´ approach once PF moves in. As we all know, friends with benefits don´t last as they LSNFTE all the time. So your 2 date model won´t apply anymore or will it? (I use a variant of your method and it´s super effective).

    2. As my head sits today, I would not be ok with my gf (I´ll never get married, I say this after 2-3 dates with potential MLTRs) sleeping with other guys. This is probably my biggest and only objection to your philosophy. I just cannot get over it. Am I a hypocrite? Absolutely! As I would love to have a bit of fun on the side when/if I find a OLTR and of course it´d be meaningless sex as I´d love her and only her. But picturing my gf on her knees before another guy…call me crazy…

    3. If (My prediction is that drama will happen inevitably, due to PF saying something like – ”You only care about those bitches you fuck´´). drama happens, how will you deal with it? What relationship management tools will you use?

    All the best for you two.

     

  45. So, I told her that I would figure out a way to have all sex with FB’s outside the home. I told her that I wasn’t planning on doing this until she moved in with me in a few months (more on that in a minute). However, I said that I would start working on that now, so she wouldn’t have to wait that long. It will take me a few weeks to arrange all of those logistics. I will discuss exactly how I end up doing this in a future post, probably when PF moves in with me. I’m a long-term thinker so I already had all of this stuff planned out years in advance.

    Heh, now the fun begins and the compromises start… ‘Should I pick the 7/10 that can host, or the 8/10 that I’ll have to pay for hotels to see?’. Curious to see what your solution is to this problem, because it’s a problem that plagues me, especially when the cheapest hotel room in the city is sometimes $400! Insanity, those are the nights I go without.

    You can try and find a reliable airbnb and strike up a relationship with the owner I suppose, but it still very much comes down to supply and demand. You could buy an apartment and airbnb it and use it on nights when it’s free. Or there’s always your car… or the park.

    No hints on your plans?

  46. Our schedule is pretty regular. She spends the entire weekend at my house and I’ll usually see her once during the week at her place.

    This sounds ideal and I would never want to go further than this, but it’s almost impossible to not go all the way with a woman you love, even without legal marriage taking place. I hope you’ve thought about this plenty, because even if you don’t get tired of seeing her every day, she probably will sooner or later. Familiarity breeds contempt and all that nonsense. Either way I’m sure you’ll be good for another five to ten more years, which would be a successful relationship regardless of what the normies think.

    With regards to marriage I am not wealthy and probably never will be, so that’s not an issue. I refuse to sign anything based solely on principle. I would, however, allow her to buy and wear her own ring, have a ceremony/party where she pays (it’s “her day” so she should pay!), and let her tell people that I’m her husband. This ensures that she “keeps up appearances.”  Will she accept this deal? Maybe, maybe not. I’m not to worried about it though.

    Also could you post or direct me towards the five ways of getting married? I already have an idea of what they are, but still curious nonetheless.

  47. I have a Virtual Live-In OLTR with my partner while raising our 9-year old daughter together. It has taken me over 5 years (and lots of hard work) to transition our relationship from claustrophobic monogamy into its current form (which is going amazingly well), and I owe much of it to you through the wealth of literature you’ve written on the subject, along with specific pieces of advice you yourself have given me in the past on Sedfast.

    The one thing that struck me about your post is when you said you currently spend weekends and one day a week with your OLTR

    I have actually found this to be the ideal amount of time to spend with my OLTR. We have separate flats, but nominally use hers as the “family” home. I spend my weekends and one night a week there, and my daughter comes and stays with me at my flat 1-2 nights a week.

    I have to wonder whether part of the reason that things are so good between you and PF at the moment isn’t because you’ve currently found the sweet-spot between spending meaningful and engaged time together, while having enough personal and physical space for yourselves.

    The freedom that I get from being totally on my own and in my own space (even for limited periods) is strangely therapeutic and has to do with “headspace”. It also isn’t to do with just being able to sleep with other women, or having time to myself, but about setting a “contextual split”.

    This might be because I’m naturally introverted, but after all these years you may find that living with someone full-time again doesn’t work for you. You may be able to work around the issues, but I would prepare myself and PF for the possibility of further developments in the structure of your relationship in the future. It wouldn’t a bad thing, but would just go to show how the Alpha Male 2.0 lifestyle can provide new types of relationships that can actually be longer-lasting and more organic than traditional forms.

    Also- Congratulations!

  48. @Duke

    I would, however, allow her to buy and wear her own ring, have a ceremony/party where she pays (it’s “her day” so she should pay!), and let her tell people that I’m her husband

    Wow, I can’t imagine a woman being excited to purchase her own engagement ring and pay for the entire wedding herself. I think you will have a tough time trying to convince any woman to do this no matter how much she loves you and wants to marry you.  The least you could do is split the cost, though I think many women in this situation would not feel the same way about the ring as a woman who received it from her man. The truth is that the whole point of an engagement ring is that it’s a gift, meant to demonstrate the level of a man’s commitment.  Even paying for half of the ring can render the entire gesture meaningless but in your case, at least it’s some effort on your part. How are you going to show your level of commitment if you can’t at least pay for part of the ring? If you don’t want to get married, don’t do it.  Marriage takes effort and if you can’t put any effort in participating in the process then maybe you should stick with MTLR’s and FB’s. Are you planning to wear a wedding band? Will she have to purchase that too? I understand that this whole process can be expensive but it doesn’t have to be.

     

  49. Dang lots of stuff flying around in this thread!  From what I gather, BD has always preferred a deeper pair bonding type relationship, hence the OLTR which requires a bit more compromise.  I really don’t see any issue with it, although it’s not for everyone.  I myself do not require that type of connections and prefer the MLTR/FB arrangement.  I like my autonomy and prefer not to get my life too entwined with another.  Straight FB‘s wouldn’t be enough since I do enjoy some level of connection.

    We all come around here since we know the traditional LTR and marriage doesn’t work for people like us.  The “one size fits all” model is broken and doesn’t account for how different we all are in regards to connection type and romance.  These methods under Alpha 2.0 allow you to define LTR and “marriage” however you’d like.

  50. Wow, I would love to check my boyfriend’s phone/text messages!!!……but I’d be too afraid of what I might find, plus I don’t think he’d ever let me see it anyways and I’d be too afraid to even ask.  If I asked I think he’d hesitate and it would make him feel uncomfortable, so I don’t think I will ever ask.

    I have to say, I’ve been guilty of some inappropriate text messaging in the past.  I know if my boyfriend knew he would be upset.  It was just texting though; definitely sex-related but nothing major and there was never any intent of anything; it was just all in good fun. I know it wasn’t right.  It was inappropriate.  This is another reason why I can’t be a hypocrite and I don’t want to see his texts because I’d be afraid of what I might see, but I can’t be mad because I’d be just as guilty.

  51. @Lovergirl

    To the person who wondered why I am not giving Firefly advice- why would I? She’s well on her way to getting exactly what she wants. She doesn’t need my help.

    You are incorrect; I am not getting everything I want, trust me! If I had my way there would be no FB’s and we wouldn’t be moving out of the county. If got everything I wanted, BD wouldn’t work as much and we would travel the world all of the time and not worry about how much it would cost. Clearly this is not going to happen, BD is not going to stop seeing FB’s on the side nor is he going to stop thinking about the budget. There is no way I can talk him out of moving out of the county either. I have had to compromise and will still have to compromise some more in order to be with him but I’m willing do to do that for him. BD is pretty firm on his beliefs and there is no changing that!  What you are correct on is that I don’t need your help.
     

  52. Congrats to BD & PF!!!

    I do have one thing to say…..I don’t know that desiring an OLTR/LTR is guaranteed for guys our age (I think I’m within a year of BD’s age). Perhaps many do, but life arc does matter. BD divorced something like 12 years ago and has had some pretty impressive adventures in the mean time. I have been in serious LTR‘s 21 of my 23 adult years and have 0 interest at this point in anything other than some combination of FB‘s/MLTR‘s. I am loving the level of freedom I now have, but in another decade I might have a different attitude.

  53. These two will be just fine, regardless of how it ends up shaking out after a few years. They’re both obviously perfectly adept at looking out for their own interests, in their respective ways.

    We can all read the clear tension between their somewhat competing interests, but that is also what will keep it interesting and help maintain the spark. It’s when one person’s interests totally dominate the other’s that things become complacent and stale…you want a balance between the benefit of your mutual interests and the tension between your competing interests as you both “game” each other. They seem like well matched competitors who share the mutual interest of playing an exciting, high level game.

    There are too many people here who think they can “figure out” or ever truly reconcile the paradox created by the fact that we are ALL sexual hypocrites. You can’t. You can learn the rules of the game, learn to enjoy the game, and seek out worthy players. But you can’t ever solve it.

    There is no benefit whatsoever to PF to disclose whether she’s sleeping with anyone else so I don’t expect that she will. My guess is that right now she isn’t bc she doesn’t want to. But eventually some day she’ll be at a conference or GNO or at the gym or whatever and some dashing guy will entice her with his own version of a fun game and she will take up that offer, and so what. Doesn’t really change anything about what they’re doing. Anyway that’s just a guess, I doubt we will ever know what she’s doing, women who are smart players don’t ever voluntarily reveal all their cards.

    I think it’s admirable that BD is being so honest about this and providing a glimpse at what real life situations are like. Very rare to see that. It’ll be fun to watch them play this out. 🙂

  54. Firefly-

    You are right- those are huge compromises and if you are already this uncomfortable with them then I have a feeling you are not going to be able to sustain the tolerance of it long term. Eventually either BD is going to compromise further on having these fuck buddies (hes already willing to drop most of them so it seems to be heading that direction) or you are going to start to feel emotionally abused. If this were something you were okay with that would be a different story. Moving to another country without the support of friends and family will be difficult but it will also mean BD would have to start all over finding fuck buddies. Are you comfortable with him dating and finding new women while you are together? I don’t see this panning out well in the end.

  55. Exactly Nick, I’m rooting for them because it all is a great learning opportunity. Thank you BD and PF for sharing your experience with the world. However, like others have said, offering her to look through your phone seems like a mistake. As manosphere experts advise, appeasing women ensures the relationship’s demise. PF should trust you and know that any FB‘s are not a threat because those relationships are strictly sexual. She will have fears and insecurities like any human being, but if she wants to pair bond with an Alpha 2.0, she has to manage her emotions and keep those in check. BD, how easy do you think it can be to create another OLTR that brings you a similar level of satisfaction if things with PF would fail? Also, it seems like based on your experience, ultra feminine women are highly emotional and not very logical. So I’d like to know if and how does PF stimulate you mentally?
    @Lovegirl- your cynicism is being perceived as jealousy so I wonder if you have any optimistic views on love and pair bonding?

  56. @PF

    The truth is that the whole point of an engagement ring is that it’s a gift, meant to demonstrate the level of a man’s commitment.

    Given your position that an engagement ring shows a man’s level of commitment you must want BD to pay for as expensive a ring as he can possibly tolerate. Do I have that about right?

    BD’s own stated position (and understandably so) is that so long as things are working for him with you he’s “in” and good to go. But as soon as that isn’t the case he’s “out.” I believe his said that his expectation was that you two would be together for “just a period of time.” I am not sure how you square any of that with an engagement ring being anything other than a commitment to spend money in an effort to appease a woman you have feelings for. Using it as a barometer for commitment is laughable.

  57. The moving in together will probably kill this. Why two people who are clearly in love want to do such a dumb ass thing is beyond me.

  58. Regarding the looking at the phone thing:

    – What exactly is the alternative? Whenever you advise against something you need to provide what you would do instead. Should I seriously password protect my phone for the rest of my life (or for length of the OLTR which will likely last many years)? Do I constantly have to unlock my phone whenever I use the damn thing, which is all the time (I run an online business, remember). Do I spend the rest of my days hoping that she never looks at my phone whenever I forget to lock it? Do I have to constantly go back and delete all my texts? Does any of that crap sound Alpha to you?

    Fuckin’ hassle. None of that would make me happy.

    – There is no slippery slope here. She will not be allowed to read my emails, etc. Please.

    – As I stated above, if she gives me any crap about what she sees in my phone, that practice will stop (and it will be a hassle, as I stated above).

    – I am not “appeasing her.” Really, people? Look at her comments above regarding the items she wants yet isn’t getting (and is never going to get). I fuck other women and tell the world all about it, and you think I’m appeasing? I stated in the article that this is one of the only, and last, compromises I’m going to give (barring a few minor logistical ones when she moves in).

    If I start acting like a complete beta, you are all welcome to call me out on it if it happens, but please don’t complain to me about theoretical shit I haven’t done. That’s stupid.

    Responses:

    I´d be interested in your new “pick up´´ approach once PF moves in. As we all know, friends with benefits don´t last as they LSNFTE all the time. So your 2 date model won´t apply anymore or will it?

    I’ll have much more to say about this well after she moves in. The two date model will still apply, though I will have to put in much more numbers and (sadly) focus more on younger (lower ASD) women.

    If (My prediction is that drama will happen inevitably, due to PF saying something like – ”You only care about those bitches you fuck´´). drama happens, how will you deal with it? What relationship management tools will you use?

    Again, I have much more to say about this, in great detail, after she moves in. Some of it will be on this blog, some of it will be in my revised edition of my open relationships book.

    The quick summary is that since soft nexting no longer works, you’ll need to employ other tools, make sure you give each other a lot of space, keep your Alpha frame at all times, and yes, tolerate an additional 10-20% of drama over the near-zero drama of an MLTR or FB you don’t live with.

    ‘Should I pick the 7/10 that can host, or the 8/10 that I’ll have to pay for hotels to see?’. Curious to see what your solution is to this problem, because it’s a problem that plagues me

    As I’ve told you a thousand times, will not have, nor never will have your problems, since you live in a different world than me, as I already explained here.

    even if you don’t get tired of seeing her every day, she probably will sooner or later. Familiarity breeds contempt and all that nonsense

    I know. That’s why I don’t plan on this relationship lasting “forever.” I’m not delusional about any of this.

    Also could you post or direct me towards the five ways of getting married?

    I’ll post about it later, but it’s not hard to figure out.

    From what I gather, BD has always preferred a deeper pair bonding type relationship, hence the OLTR which requires a bit more compromise.  I really don’t see any issue with it, although it’s not for everyone.

    Here’s the biggest thing: I would love to see the ages of the commenters posted next to comments of the men getting upset about this. The vast majority (though not all) are men under the age of 35. When you’re under 35, the concept of not only an OLTR, but moving in with a woman, seems stupid. And it is, when you’re that age.

    Guys keep forgetting that I’m 44, and that someday, they’ll be 44 too.

    The moving in together will probably kill this. Why two people who are clearly in love want to do such a dumb ass thing is beyond me.

    So you’ll never move in with a woman for the rest of your life, even in your old age? That’s fine if the answer is yes, but realize that you are a bizarre exception to the rule if that’s the case.

    BD, how easy do you think it can be to create another OLTR that brings you a similar level of satisfaction if things with PF would fail?

    It would be very difficult. That’s why I wouldn’t even bother to try for another 5-10 years.

    Also, it seems like based on your experience, ultra feminine women are highly emotional and not very logical. So I’d like to know if and how does PF stimulate you mentally?

    Even when PF was a pure FB and nothing else, her and I would sit and talk on the couch for literally hours. I didn’t break any FB rules (I never took her out on dates, never got romantic with her, never spent the night, etc), but we would talk and enjoy each other’s company for long stretches without sex (of course we had sex every time too; kinda mandatory).

    A feminine woman does stimulate me mentally. I love having conversations and debates about “hard” topics with rational men; I do that online every day on my blogs (and often in real life too). I also love the energy of a feminine woman. Rational, masculine women are nice, but don’t turn me on at all mentally.

    As long as the feminine woman is somewhat intelligent, I’m stimulated. This is one of the reasons why I wanted a woman in her 30’s for my OLTR (even before I ever met PF). My last serious relationship was with a much younger feminine woman who made me happy but didn’t stimulate me mentally because she was too simple a thinker. PF has that combination of a woman in her late 30’s, but who looks like she’s in her 20’s, who is intelligent and feminine at the same time. Again, she’s not a unicorn and she’s not perfect by any means, but she has the combination of traits that I want, and have always wanted.

  59. PF will also be “out” if and when she determines that things aren’t working for her, that’s how all people are nowadays since divorce no longer means social ruination. So they’re in the same position as far as that goes.

    FWIW, I don’t read Lovergirl as being jealous. I think she fundamentally understands PF’s perspective and their personalities are probably somewhat similar, but LG is taking a long-range, objective outsider view while PF is operating based on what she wants right now, which is a perfectly normal way to operate.

    The only real dispute here is whether BD is correct (and whether PF should put faith in his being correct) about her getting MORE, rather than less comfortable, over time with his non-monogamy. Or whether LG is correct that it will actually bother her more over time. I don’t know the answer to that one…it seems like most women who learn to live with it longterm it’s bc either (1) they’re being compensated by their man supporting them in a nice lifestyle or taking good care of their kids, or (2) the woman doesnt feel threatened bc she feels like her other options are better than the man’s better options. It seems possible that LG may be correct that if neither of those conditions exist, the woman may eventually get fed up, feel that the “deal” isn’t worth it, and leave. Or as BD calls it, a LSNFTE.

  60. @ PF

    Wow, I can’t imagine a woman being excited to purchase her own engagement ring and pay for the entire wedding herself.

    I can’t imagine a man would be excited to pay for that stuff either, yet most men just suck it up and do it anyway, beasts of burden that they are.

    I think you will have a tough time trying to convince any woman to do this no matter how much she loves you and wants to marry you.

    This is why men who don’t have a desire for children (or already had children and don’t want more) or don’t get lonely (enough) while living alone don’t have to worry about this. I was not exaggerating with my post. The whole point of refusing to pay for any of that stuff is precisely so she won’t accept it. If she does accept it, I will assume she either really loves me, or she is really stupid. With how cynical I am, I’ll more than likely believe the latter.

    The truth is that the whole point of an engagement ring is that it’s a gift, meant to demonstrate the level of a man’s commitment.

    I get this coming from you, being that you are very feminine. In exchange for that femininity you would like the masculine role to fulfill its obligation. I also agree to a point with the meaning behind this archaic gesture. But how much of this marketing and SP? Especially if you believe that crap about three month’s salary and all that jazz. I don’t know about you, but most women in my experience, want that ring so they can excitedly tell their girlfriends “hey look what I got!”

    In reality I take this engagement ring stuff for most men as a bribe to the bride to be, essentially begging her to have him (clearly you and BD seem to be exceptions). Some actually get on one knee further strengthening this perception. These thirsty and seemingly inadequate men “ruin” it for the rest of us.

    Just because I don’t want to spend ridiculous amounts for an engagement ring like some of these guys, I’m a now labeled as “not showing enough commitment.” It appears that you don’t realize that this type of stuff is coercive and emotionally manipulative in nature. For every guy that actually wants to buy his woman a “nice” ring, there is at least one or more that end up doing it because they feel they have to. Dumb asses.

    If you don’t want to get married, don’t do it.

    Believe me I won’t. But the hordes of other men that “willingly” walk down the aisle can’t say the same. I swear women seem to think that men could just refuse to marry so easily. As an example, BD is indifferent to/would rather avoid marriage, yet he’ll still do it to fulfill your desires anyway.

    Are you planning to wear a wedding band?

    Nope, in my head she ‘s the one that’s married not me. And the one thing that I am completely sure of if I do get married in some capacity is that I will refer to my wife as “the missus.” Always liked that term for some reason.

    I understand that this whole process can be expensive but it doesn’t have to be.

    Knowing how frugal BD is I’m sure it won’t be. He wrote an article about the failure of marriages after expensive weddings.

     

     

     

     

  61. Regarding the looking at the phone thing:
    – What exactly is the alternative? Whenever you advise against something you need to provide what you would do instead. Should I seriously password protect my phone for the rest of my life (or for length of the OLTR which will likely last many years)? Do I constantly have to unlock my phone whenever I use the damn thing, which is all the time (I run an online business, remember). Do I spend the rest of my days hoping that she never looks at my phone whenever I forget to lock it? Do I have to constantly go back and delete all my texts? Does any of that crap sound Alpha to you?

    You should be using a second phone and number for your side women anyway. If you’re using the same number/phone as you use for business you’re making a mistake. Keep the side women as separate in your life as possible and having a dedicated phone for them will assist with this and make her happier.

    It will also minimize the impact when these side women go crazy (which can happen occasionally, especially when you’re in a live in OLTR and they decide they want to be her) and blow up your phone with garbage.

    As I’ve told you a thousand times, will not have, nor never will have your problems, since you live in a different world than me, as I already explained here.

    Constantly referring to that in reply to my posts is a complete and utter cop out on your part. For the record, as I’ve already stated plenty of times, I do date average women. I haven’t dated an actual supermodel in 4 or 5 months and it was only a first date that went well but then she later flaked on a second.

    The last really hot girl I dated was a flight attendant recently who ended it after only sleeping with me once because I wouldn’t offer her either a relationship (nor was I willing to pretend to entertain the idea because I’m married) or pay her for her time, she was only happy with those two options, just like many really hot women who have so many high value options she doesn’t have to compromise on what she wants.

    In fact my current side girls are 6/10 and 7/10, the 6/10 being quite plain. the important factor is that they don’t want to get paid, aren’t looking for a relationship and most importantly can both HOST, and with hotel prices through the roof at the moment due to a huge under supply and high demand I don’t have much choice.

    You asked me to stop suggesting you inflate the ratings of the women you date or twist the truth to sell more books and I’ve done so. I know this is your site and you can do whatever you choose, but it’d be nice if you offer the same courtesy to me and stop referring to something that is hardly relevant in many situations.

    Of course I prefer dating the hottest women possible, who doesn’t!? You’re the one who has the OLTR who’s a ’10’ and has implied he has all these other ’10’ FB‘s after all. Also, just because I date some very hot women, doesn’t mean I don’t date others. Making compromises, on looks especially, with your side girls is a fact of life, unless you’re happy with sparing no expense.

  62. Hope this works for you guys. I have seen one work non-monogamously til death do us part, but
    the guy was bisexual, and his fuck buddies were men. He married a girl. Often jealousy fires up between straight couples and leads to drama. Good luck to you guys.

  63. BD. Have you ever looked at PFs. phone? PF would you mind if he did? BD would you expect to be told if PF slept with another guy?
    PF would you tell him if you did?

  64. @KryptoKate

    Oh come on. If PF moves to New Zealand (or wherever) and she moves into her late 40s saying she will have the same SMV as BD is ridiculous and I think you know it. It is NOT a level playing field.

    BD  is calling the shots. PF is the one making all the significant compromises. BD, by his own words, really is compromising very little and mostly things he says he would have done anyway.

    PF is still obviously in a Disney fantasy world where engagement rings measure commitment and men will eventually bend to a woman’s wishes to keep her happy.

    BD has covered his bases by being 100% transparent and upfront with PF but he is the one controlling all the pieces on the chess board. When/if things don’t work out BD can simply say “I told you that was how it was going to be so why are you upset?”

    PF is way out of her league. It isn’t even close.

  65. I am truly bewildered by the comments suggesting I am jealous, lol. Of what? I wouldn’t even know what to be jealous of. I’m having a hard time imagining being jealous over the relationship of people I’ve never even met, let alone caring about their wedding pictures, as BD suggested I would. What? Lol that doesn’t even make any sense.

    I was married once. I have my own wedding pictures. Not that weddings were ever really my thing. I went ahead and did a full on traditional church wedding, but it was more to please my in-laws than anything. I found the whole thing tedious and was more eager to get to the honeymoon. I’ve never been one of these women that cares much about weddings.

    I’m not currently even very interested in being in a relationship, open or not. I’m super busy with work and kids and my fuck buddies are keeping me sexually satiated. I’m actually turning down men that want more lately. I have too much on my plate.

    In any case I’m not against pair bonding. It’s only natural, as is falling in love. I don’t think you should make decisions that are detrimental to yourself because of it but I’m sure every one of us has been guilty of that at some point.

    As for BD I just find it amusing that for all his big talk, he is pretty much falling right into the same pattern of all the men he has criticized previously. Sure, he says he is not, but I am paying more attention to his actual actions than the rationalizations for them. He is making excuses to drop fuck buddies, allowing a woman to rifle through his phone, buying an engagement ring, putting up with her dog, and clearly trying hard to please her. Nothing wrong with that, it’s what men do when they are in love- but it goes against all the chest puffing he’s been doing for years about how alpha he is.

    He always said that fuck buddies should be more attractive than the main squeeze but he said in a previous post that he thinks Firefly is the hottest of all of them. According to his own past comments that is a recipe for failure- he will lose interest in the fuck buddies and if you read his comments in the last few posts that is what is happening.

    He used to be all about how he was totally anti drama but he has softened that stance as well. Not to mention allowing a girl to go through your phone is just ASKING for drama!! Lol. As is having her read this blog… plus it puts him on guard and he has to be careful what he says now. Can you imagine her reaction if he had admitted to having fuck buddies he thought were hotter than her? Yeah, he wouldn’t dare.

    Before he was all about how women were all replaceable and now he has this scarcity mentality that it would take years for him to find someone like Firefly. If you know the typical signs of betaization you will see it yourself. Some of you are afraid to look.

    BD- you asked what you should do about your phone. How about mutual respect? You don’t look at mine and I don’t look at yours. It shouldn’t require a lock or password. Do you all not have any trust for each other? Come on- you’re 45 and she’s in her late 30’s. You can’t just say no I don’t want you going through my private stuff?

  66. Bd as always with your rationalizations and strawman… I was pretty vulnerable and sad during my break up, i am human and though i was expecting the break up, just like tyler when the moment came i did not expect it to hit me so hard(10 years bro)… But just like you i am an open book that shares, even more than you my stuff in forums, regardless of what people think, i even reached out to you, lg, will and others who can testify in pm (as you know men do not have a support group, my support group were you guys)… Anyways, What i did in my relationship you will never be able to do or achieve… What you are doing here is “compromising”  “given here tons of compliance” and you do not even notice, she is doing shit to you that i fucking teach afcs… Do not take my advice i don’t care, the girl kriptonite perfectly described the scenario (wowow she is good, who is that girl)… Lover girl is also showing how you are compromising and acting like a beta, after you are constantly announcing how much of an “alpha 2.0” you are, if i would have done what you are doing right now, I WOULD STILL BE WITH MY EX, read that 50 times… But you know what, i never ever caved, and she knew she was never going to get her way and i was not going to give in since i have super strong boundaries, so she did what she had to do,how is that for an alpha 1.0 or whatever names you want to call me… Anyways, you always take my comments as some type of attack, is your choice dude…  By you giving little tokens of compliance you are falling little by little to her agenda (we all have selfish agendas)…

    About the phone dude, you are giving a bad precedence, “here take a look at my phone.”.. Let me give you an analogy, if you have a dog and you tell the dog “go pipi” inside the house, 1 time… What you have done is confused the dog, and next time you tell him “pipi outside” he may get confused…   Get me!

    p.s never locked my phone, i teach people to use “google voice” aka alternative phone number.

    Blackdragon thanks anyways for sharing your story, what you are doing is not wrong, you are 45, shit changes! you have different needs and things that make you happy than when you were younger, even if you were to go mono with this girl and marry and all that shit, who cares, do whatever makes you happy at whatever point in your life… I think this girl is great and has you by the balls, but makes you happy…You can be fluid in your views as wells it does not make you a hypocrite, it just makes you and “evolving man”, what upsets me is how you backwards rationalize this shit!

  67. LG, your sophisms are getting really annoying. I’ve seen cases of confirmation bias as severe as yours in the past, but not with such regularity on every thread.
    -Making excuses to drop his fuck buddies: he’s always said that he’d prefer to have 1 OLTR and 1 FB forever, but that he has to keep 2+ FBs because of the risk of de facto monogamy. So the dropping is anything but unexpected, especially when preparing for a live-in OLTR.
    -“He used to be all about how he was totally anti drama but he has softened that stance as well”: he has always said that the rules change with an OLTR and that you have to put up with more drama.
    -“now he has this scarcity mentality that it would take years for him to find someone like Firefly”: he has always said that getting a new OLTR was a long and difficult process of weeding out the unsuitable candidates, so again, nothing new.
    -“As is having her read this blog”: I remember at least one old article where BD mentions his girl of the time reading the blog, with a “hey sweetie!” inserted for good measure. Hell, he even said somewhere that some of his FBs read his blog.

    There’s still a good handful of fallacies in your previous comments as well that I was tempted to point out yesterday, but they’re so easy to spot that I’m much more interested in why the fuck you’re being so dishonest. My only guess is that you’re having puerile and tribal “us versus them” rootings to see “women” stick it to “men”, and to believe that there is no permanent alpha because under your model that would be a “defeat” for women.

  68. @Duke

    If you’re interested, the way I did it was as follows

    I can’t imagine a man would be excited to pay for that stuff either, yet most men just suck it up and do it anyway, beasts of burden that they are.

    We purchased her a modest engagement ring that she was quite happy with and we split the cost, we went out and picked it together, and by together I mean I let her pick the ring and she was quite reasonable in her expectations.

    Nope, in my head she ‘s the one that’s married not me. 

    I agree with this and don’t wear a wedding band.

    expensive weddings.

    In terms of the wedding, the cost was split 3 ways between her parents, my parents and us. Which means I essentially paid for 1/6th of the wedding.

    In any relationship you can’t have things 100% your way. Engagement rings and weddings etc. seem silly to us, but are very important to most women (and their mothers), sometimes you have to give them at least some of what they want.

  69. @Gil- Accusing me of lying is a bit extreme, don’t you think? I’m simply offering an opinion, based on observation. You don’t have to agree with it. I’m just pointing out what I’m seeing. If you don’t see it, well, go right on believing whatever it is you think is right.

  70. @John Galt

    Oh come on. If PF moves to New Zealand (or wherever) and she moves into her late 40s saying she will have the same SMV as BD is ridiculous and I think you know it. It is NOT a level playing field.
    BD  is calling the shots. PF is the one making all the significant compromises. BD, by his own words, really is compromising very little and mostly things he says he would have done anyway.
    PF is still obviously in a Disney fantasy world where engagement rings measure commitment and men will eventually bend to a woman’s wishes to keep her happy.
    BD has covered his bases by being 100% transparent and upfront with PF but he is the one controlling all the pieces on the chess board. When/if things don’t work out BD can simply say “I told you that was how it was going to be so why are you upset?”
    PF is way out of her league. It isn’t even close.

    Exactly. The SMV disparity between the two is what makes this entire OLTR possible. That’s what I was saying in the comments of the previous post about this topic.

    BD of course came in with the usual ‘SMV has nothing to do with this’ argument, which is absurd, it has everything to do with it, it always does.

    If she had much higher SMV she wouldn’t need or want to accept his compromises, she’d just move on to the next high value suitor offering her EVERYTHING she wants.

    Your posts in these comments are all spot on John.

  71. You are incorrect; I am not getting everything I want, trust me! If I had my way there would be no FB’s and we wouldn’t be moving out of the county. If got everything I wanted, BD wouldn’t work as much and we would travel the world all of the time and not worry about how much it would cost. Clearly this is not going to happen, BD is not going to stop seeing FB’s on the side nor is he going to stop thinking about the budget. There is no way I can talk him out of moving out of the county either. I have had to compromise and will still have to compromise some more in order to be with him but I’m willing do to do that for him. BD is pretty firm on his beliefs and there is no changing that!  What you are correct on is that I don’t need your help.

    Well played.

    Throw out a few moderate to ridiculous “everything I want requests” that could never be realized anyway or don’t bother you much in order to make your man feel like he’s winning (travel the world full time with your husband not working?  You’re such an angel for giving that up haha.)

    Meanwhile you get your ring and 1/4 of his ballsack as of this moment.

    Champion moves.

    This all fits into the family of Power Law 31. Not directly but a similar type of option-control play.

    So entertaining this thread. Only because of the history of it all, and now watching triangles attempting to get forced into squares.

  72. @ Wolf

    In terms of the wedding, the cost was split 3 ways between her parents, my parents and us. Which means I essentially paid for 1/6th of the wedding.

    Good idea. Never thought of that one before. Although, I would run the risk of being called cheap, but who cares, I am! What I’m really interested in reading though, is an account of raising kids in an open relationship. I have one kid from a previous relationship, but always getting the itch for more. Would be nice to find out how you and Jack manage this aspect of your futures, seeing how BD tapped out of the market already.

  73. @BLINDNESS

    Well played. Champion moves.

    Thanks for all compliments! I think I did well to be able to snag BD and have a relationship with him. I am very happy with him and I am lucky to have found him.

    Throw out a few moderate to ridiculous “everything I want requests” that could never be realized anyway

    You are wrong, these requests could be realized. BD stated we would be traveling quite a bit all over the world actually. His plan is to continue to work for just about forever, but he only wants to work a little here and there eventually. So, no I won’t get him to completely stop working when he retires, but I will still get to travel. 

    You’re such an angel

    Thanks, I consider being an angel a good thing.

    Meanwhile you get your ring and 1/4 of his ballsack as of this moment.

    That comment made me laugh! You think I have BD tied up and am forcing him to make compromises? (I like the tied up part ;)) Like BD has stated before, he is responsible for himself and his own actions. According to his own rules, if he realizes he has made a mistake down the road, it’s his own fault.  He is not being forced to have this relationship with me nor is he making any compromises he does not want to make.

  74. According to his own rules, if he realizes he has made a mistake down the road, it’s his own fault.  He is not being forced to have this relationship with me nor is he making any compromises he does not want to make.

    Oh of course!   No one’s forcing him to do anything.  FORCE isn’t typically how women work, of course, they’re much better at maneuvering in other ways.   This statement is another misdirection power move, you’re good!

    What’s fun is observing which tactics effectively “tie him up” as you’re doing.  Law 33 – Discover Each Man’s Thumbscrew.   We’re witnessing BD’s being exposed in real time.

    Have fun though, you should get a few fun years out of this before attraction is lost enough where other shit starts coming up and we have a new acronym named for whatever version of “next” applies to ring-wearing drama-inducing OLTRs past the 3-year mark 😉

  75. You should be using a second phone and number for your side women anyway.

    What? I have to buy another phone? And pay more monthly for another phone? And carry two fucking phones around all the time?

    Man, fuck that. If that works for you, that’s great, but my entire life is about simplicity and efficiency, and I’d rather jump off a cliff than dick with having two phones.

    If you’re using the same number/phone as you use for business you’re making a mistake.

    95% of my business, or more, is done via email and Skype, not my phone. I can’t even remember when I had a real phone call, with my phone, with a business client.

    It will also minimize the impact when these side women go crazy

    It takes about 25 seconds to block someone’s phone number.

    Seriously, none of this justifies an entire second phone, at least not to me.

    Have you ever looked at PFs. phone?

    No. I’m outcome independent and don’t care. I have more important things to concern myself with than my girlfriend’s phone. She could be banging Barack Obama and I wouldn’t give a shit. (Though I would laugh.)

    BD would you expect to be told if PF slept with another guy?

    Sure. Not every time, but if there was a new guy, sure. Even then, that’s only for health (STD) management reasons, not because I give a shit. FB sex is meaningless and I’m not threatened by other men.

    I am truly bewildered by the comments suggesting I am jealous, lol.

    Okay, you’re not jealous. Then why have you been so negative about all of this, to the point of hysterics, ever since I started talking publicly about this? Don’t answer that; I’m just helping you be a little more self aware (which may not be possible).

    I don’t think it’s jealousy of any person, but jealousy over some Disney shit you think PF is going to get that you’re currently not getting from your high drama Alpha 1.0’s you like to fuck. That’s just my guess, but clearly something is up your butt about all this, or else you wouldn’t be this upset.

    As for BD I just find it amusing that for all his big talk, he is pretty much falling right into the same pattern of all the men he has criticized previously. Sure, he says he is not, but I am paying more attention to his actual actions than the rationalizations for them. He is making excuses to drop fuck buddies, allowing a woman to rifle through his phone, buying an engagement ring, putting up with her dog, and clearly trying hard to please her. Nothing wrong with that, it’s what men do when they are in love- but it goes against all the chest puffing he’s been doing for years about how alpha he is.

    I fuck other women, and tell the entire world about it, using my real identity. And my much-hotter-than-average girlfriend is still with me.  But I’m not Alpha because of a ring and a phone? I’m more Alpha than any man you’ve had sex with probably in the last 10 years. (And I’m being serious about that.)

    You don’t look at mine and I don’t look at yours. It shouldn’t require a lock or password. Do you all not have any trust for each other? Come on- you’re 45 and she’s in her late 30’s. You can’t just say no I don’t want you going through my private stuff?

    Sure I can. Then what if she does down the road because she’s a woman and a human being? Then we have to have drama.  No thanks.

    I know you love drama, LG, but I think it’s stupid, and I have better things to do. And I have nothing to hide. I know your men have all kinds of things to hide from you. That’s fine for them, but I’m Alpha 2.0, not 1.0. I know that’s hard for you (and a few others here) to understand. I don’t give a shit about any of this, and I have nothing to hide. I know that’s an alien concept to the world of the Alpha Male 1.0, a world you and several others in this thread live in. Which is fine, but I live in a world of happiness, not control, because you can’t have extreme amounts of both.

  76. Pink Firefly wrote:

    You are wrong, these requests could be realized. BD stated we would be traveling quite a bit all over the world actually. His plan is to continue to work for just about forever, but he only wants to work a little here and there eventually. So, no I won’t get him to completely stop working when he retires, but I will still get to travel. 

    BD curious to what degree you’re planning to fly your girl around the world with you?  Is it a permanent thing, into post retirement?   Her expectations seem high.

    Is this at your expense or can she match your money?

    What will you do if after 5 years of traveling with her by your side you want some freaking space and to travel on your own for a while and exercise your right to OLTR the shit out of other girls.   Is your girl agreeable to this option?  Or else are you really prepared for her to be by your side as you travel, as she seems to expect?

    What is your move if issues come up while traveling (trapped in airports, airplanes, trains, hotels, etc etc) and “soft next” isn’t an effective conflict resolution option? (Becomes silent treatment at that point.)  Do you have other conflict resolution strategies for times when soft next isn’t an option?

    Also, a ring symbolizes permanence. But expectations of PERMANENCE are the actual Disney fantasy, the core of blue pill pain, because everything always changes. Do you expect this to be permanent?

  77. Blindness, your comments set off some troll alarms with me so I looked up your pasts comments here. Sure enough, you are a very unhappy man and a troll, and have made personal attacks against me and other commenters in the past, which is a violation of Rule Number One here, and even tried to imitate JOTB at one point. I’m not sure how you slipped through the cracks, but you are on very thin ice. One more comment out of you that even hints of troll, and you’re gone. This is my last warning.

    In answer to your questions, no, of course PF is not going to travel with me wherever and whenever I go. I’m going to China in April for two weeks, and she’s not coming with me.

  78. Blindness, your comments set off some troll alarms with me so I looked up your pasts comments here. Sure enough, you are a very unhappy man and a troll, and have made personal attacks against me and other commenters in the past, which is a violation of Rule Number One here, and even tried to imitate JOTB at one point. I’m not sure how you slipped through the cracks, but you are on very thin ice. One more comment out of you that even hints of troll, and you’re gone. This is my last warning.

    You’re a fascinating case study with a similar personality type.  I indeed test you, you react to things like an exaggerated version of myself and act as a good mirror.

    I’m not unhappy, but i guess I am technically trolling because I’m interested in reactions more than content on here.

    Those are questions worth asking yourself though.

  79. The idea that i am, or have ever been, “hysterical” about anything you have written is laughable. I know you don’t like me pointing out what is happening but trying to characterize me as hysterical about it is a joke. I’m not the least bit emotionally invested in this situation, Im looking at it from afar and pointing out the forest you can’t see for the trees.

    I’m negative because I can see what is happening, the things you aren’t noticing due to your level of emotional investment. I quite honestly don’t compare myself to PF or care what she is or isn’t getting from some guy I have never met. That’s your wild imagination talking. Or maybe delusions. I’m not “upset” I am amused.

    I’m currently happy with the guys I am fucking. Some are higher drama and some are no drama but I’m not getting any drama from anyone at the moment. Maybe a little neediness from one. That’s about it. I don’t have time for it.

    I’m not sure why you are comparing yourself to the men I have sex with but at least 3 of them I would consider alpha 2.0 types, in that they are not jealous. There is no way in hell any of those three would want me going through their phones. One of the others might because like I said he’s been a little needy and wanting more of a relationship. That’s definitely not alpha behavior though.

    You realize the “what if she looks at my phone down the road and causes drama” is exactly the type of rationalizing you told your blog fiollowers not to take part in, in this very thread? You told them not to worry about what ifs if they aren’t happening now.

    If she causes drama after going through your phone, you next her. Or is that too hard for you to do now?

    Nobody said you had anything to hide. We are saying it’s not her business or place to be worrying about what is said between you and your fuck buddies. That is an attempt to control on her part and you are allowing it. You even allowed her to decide that you should only talk to them for scheduling purposes. That’s a quick way to lose the other women in your life.

  80. @ John I disagree with you that in 10 years there will be an SMV disparity bc while PF will be 47, BD will be 54. Men over 50 do not have any SMV, have you ever in your life heard of a woman saying she thought a 50+ poor guy was hot? No you have not bc no one thinks that. A man that age may have a good RMV based on their money and personality, but not SMV.

    Hell, where I Iive my single mother friends in their mid and late 30s who are poor and want boyfriends bad will not date a guy in his 50s, though they do have sex with guys in their 20s. I am sure if one rich enough came along they might consider a serious relationship in exchange for support, but definitely not just sex, they turn those offers down every day. And while BD is probably really cool he isn’t one to offer money or a fancy lifestyle so I don’t see the relative balance of power changing that much in the next 10 years. At least where I live, and also where my sister and my sister in law live (across the country) women in their late 40s do roughly the same as men in their late 40s do, assuming that neither is offering to support the other. Obviously if a man is offering financial support that’s different but so what…a 50 yr old woman offering financial support can easily get a younger boyfriend too. Rich older gay and lesbian people also get younger partners, this is not surprising. And also irrelevant if BD maintains his current stance against significant monetary support.

    Anyway, regardless of your or my perspectives on relative SMV/RMV (which are determined by local markets anyway), it doesn’t matter bc I never said anything about where they would be in 10 years. I said they seemed well matched today. PF is asserting more immediate pressure while BD is playing a longer term game in view of 3 to 5 years. I don’t think PF is thinking long term, she is thinking about what she wants right now, which is marriage. Who knows what she will want in 10 yrs but it is unlikely to be what she wants right now. So in a sense with PF operating short term, BD is operating medium term and thus is willing to make more immediate concessions to aid that medium term goal, and 10 yrs from now is so far away it might as well be 100. BD is clear here he isn’t thinking that long term (and neither is PF, despite wanting marriage today). BD already said she’s emotional, she is not thinking about what she will want in 10 years, emotional people operate in the here and now.

    @ Duke I am 100% with you about engagement rings and “proposing”. I hate the whole idea of it, it totally offends me at a core level. Plus I can’t stand the idea of wearing a ring like a brand on a cow showing that I’m claimed and owned by someone else. No fucking way. I did not have any of those things when I was married, but obviously it is no surprise that I am divorced, lol, and no one would ever ask me for advice on marriage. 🙂 However, I have had men get upset and flummoxed at me bc I didn’t want and wouldn’t consider a ring, so there are plenty of men who buy into it too. DeBeers and Jared company are laughing all the way to the bank, of course. And I’ve had women get upset at me bc my merely not wanting a ring somehow apparently devalued their own rings (which I guess is bc you’re right that’s it’s mostly a way to show off and establish rank among friends, so if someone says they don’t want one then it messes up the whole hierarchy). What a great marketing ploy…tell women that a useless shiny object indicates their value to a man, tell men that buying a useless shiny object gives him lifelong exclusive access to her pussy, then charge thousands of dollars for said useless shiny object. Blech. But most women want them AND lots of men want to buy them and get quite excited about it, in fact. Craziness.

  81. @PF @BD

    What? I have to buy another phone? And pay more monthly for another phone? And carry two fucking phones around all the time?

    It’s a cheap second burner that you pre pay for that you only use to keep in touch with side women, which is mostly scheduling. The advantage is, when you go away on vacations with PF or out on a romantic dinner etc. you just leave the second phone behind, and there is zero distractions and PF won’t get annoyed that other women are contacting you during your time together.

    AND if you manage to get involved with a bunny boiler who starts calling you at all hours from a private number, you can ditch the number and get a new one.

    Doesn’t that sound nice PF? haha

    @Duke

    Although, I would run the risk of being called cheap

    Sure but the counter argument is (and how you should pitch it), if you’re paying for the wedding then it’s entirely up to you what the wedding should be, and you’d just prefer to elope to Vegas because all that really matters is your love for one another, or whatever. So pitch a cheap Vegas wedding, or offer this as an alternative.

    If her parents and your parents, want a say in the wedding, then it’s only fair that they should contribute to it financially, then you can all have an equal say. If one set of parents doesn’t care so much but the other does and has decided to chip in, it obligates both to do so.

    Provided the parents in law and your parents are all still around then the costs should remain relatively low as neither party will want to cause financial distress or bickering to the other or to yourselves by demanding too much.

    Furthermore if one party does want something in particular above and beyond what the other 2 parties are prepared to contribute towards they can opt to pay for it themselves outside of the 3 way split.

    Everyone gets a say, everyone contributes financially, everyone is happy.

  82. May I offer a solution to this phone thing? It is standard in most workplaced, and certainly best practices for anyone with reason to be concerned with business confidentiality, to require that phones be locked. What if you accidentally left your phone somewhere? It needs to be locked at all times. I have found 3 phones in public places over the years and was shocked that none were locked and that I could immediately scroll through the gallery and texts.

    Your phone unlocks with your fingerprint. It does not take any time at all. It really is not safe or secure to have an unlocked phone and that is a business and liability based fact, with which loved ones cant argue. At my company it is a hard requirement that all shareholders and employees who access work email, calendar, or contacts on their phone keep their phone locked at all times.

  83. Men over 50 do not have any SMV, have you ever in your life heard of a woman saying she thought a 50+ poor guy was hot?

    I’m wondering if BD will comment on this.

    I mean…..yeah, poor dudes over 50 aren’t desirable. Stop the presses!

    The qualities that make us not poor at 50 contribute to SMV in other ways. As BD put it in a post a couple months back, it is nearly a part time job to take care of ourselves, but some of us are very well preserved. Just because your girlfriends won’t have sex with schlubs doesn’t mean they won’t have sex with dudes who have it together. Of course the real trick is not coming across as a Provider.

  84. 2 Phones ?! because of women ? … that’s beyond retarded.

    << BD
    In other words, if you have a woman who is reasonably intelligent and reasonably self-controlled, she will be aware that exposure to this stuff will upset her and she’ll consciously stay away. >>

    Maybe she is , only time will tell… Very few people and even fewer women can have such a level of control and be completely fine with constant reminders that their guy is fucking other women.

    88 comments ?!! .. why is everyone being so paranoiac about it. In the worse case they split and life goes on and we get BD to tell us all about it … probably going to have a few laughs.

    In the best case, you have 2 people who have found an agreement and can live happily together.. why is that so bad ?

  85. my single mother friends in their mid and late 30s who are poor and want boyfriends bad will not date a guy in his 50s, though they do have sex with guys in their 20s. I am sure if one rich enough came along they might consider a serious relationship in exchange for support, but definitely not just sex, they turn those offers down every day.

    Pretty harsh Kate to say guys over 50 have zero SMV. SMV by red pill standards is more than just physical. Its everything together. Which at this age would usually include some financial success.

    Not sure your example above though is a good one. Any guy with high SMV and knew it in his 50’s probably wouldn’t touch your friends. Especially for a relationship. Single mothers looking for a relationship and financial support. Yikes…..ruuuun!! I’d say they are getting approached by lots of betas and guys with low SMV. Obviously guys can be rich and still have low SMV.

    I would have a ONS or maybe have them as a FB. But even an MLTR would be out of the question.

     

  86. “I got two phones… one for the plug and one for the load…” lol J/K but one of the guys I sleep with carries 3 phones around. He says they are all for work. Sometimes he uses his Apple Watch too. I have no idea and I’m not interested in going through his phones.

    Kate did make a point with fingerprint technology. My phone is locked all the time but I don’t even notice because I open it with my thumb.

    On SMV- men like to tell themselves that it gets higher as they age but at 50 it definitely takes a nosedive. I’m 40 and 50 yr old men seem too old for me. I’m not sure what will happen with that as I get older, but right now it’s rare that a 50 yr old looks attractive in any way. I suppose with men or women taking care of yourselves and genes make a difference. I’ve been blessed with genes that make me look younger than my age- I don’t do anything particularly special to keep looking youthful but people are usually shocked to hear I’m 40.

    Some of its attitude too. One of the guys I sleep with is 41 and he sometimes talks like he’s old. I’m like come on…. lol if you act old other people will see you that way.

  87. If I had a nickel for every time I hear a woman say “I still get carded” or “Guys always think I am 10 years younger than I am” etc…well I would have a shitload of nickels. A few years ago I dated a woman that was a personal trainer who was 36. Her body was literally perfection. I would put her body up against any 20 year old. And she had in all other ways take good care of herself. She still looked like she was in her 30s. I don’t care how good your genes are 19, 29, 39 and 49 do not look the same and if you can’t tell the difference you aren’t looking closely enough or you can’t see your own cognitive dissonance (CD).

    None of which is to say that older women can’t be attractive if they take care of themselves.

    I am a bit over 50 and my current girl is 24 and she is quite attractive. I won’t talk nonsense about her being a 10 (I don’t think there is such a thing) but she turns heads. She especially turns mine. Men’s and women’s SMV do not decline at the same rate. The reason for this is that men are, in general, are better providers and women, in general, are attracted to men that can provide and protect. Men that are older can in general provided better than women that are older and younger men, in general are not attracted to a women who is a better provider than they are. In many cases men see it as emasculating and a turn off.

    In my opinion, the reason people are commenting on this thread so much isn’t that people are worried about BD (I mean please…BD is fine) but that there is a crazy amount of rationalization and cognitive dissonance going on here. The funny thing about CD is you can’t see it when you are experiencing it.

    Do any of you FOR A SECOND think PF would be with BD if he wasn’t successful? BD doesn’t talk about finances so none of us will ever know but when you here PF say things like “engagement rings show you how committed a man is” and “How are you going to show your level of commitment if you can’t at least pay for part of the ring?” I think it is clear that money is important to PF even if it is just sharing BD’s lifestyle and they don’t co-mingle finances (which of course BD would never do).

    But when I hear PF say things like:

    “Any normal woman who is in love with their boyfriend and who is planning to marry him does not actually want him fucking other women on the side” and “it does not bother him that I look at his phone” and “I have always believed in marriage though and have wanted that for a long time”

    And BD seems OK with all that Disney nonsense I have to claim there is some serious CD going on here.

    Ultimately this plays out exactly how BD would predict this will play out for all of the other people he has commented about over the years. BD will go on, having learned a few things. I think the outcome for PF will be very different and way more disappointing for her.

    She BADLY wants to get married. She has ALWAYS wanted to get married. Things will end at some point and PF will have a much harder time finding what she wants when her SMV has dropped 2-3 points.

  88. You guys/gals are way overthinking this. BD met a wonderful girl and fell in love. Now, they are doing what people do, establishing a life together in a way that works for them. They will likely get married and eventually be, if not completely monogamous, than mostly with an occasional side daliance. Who are we to judge? Many marriages are like this anyway. BD and PF simply acknowledge it up front and discuss in public. Sadly, this will likely make for a not so fun blog as when he was dating. Such is life. I’ve followed some of his advice, particularly on low-drama, and it largely works.

    Thanks for all the great advice, BD, and best wishes to you and PF!

  89. @ Harry- yes, it’s totally normal. The reason I find it entertaining is that BD has preached against this type of behavior for so long. But now he’s acting like every other guy that he has been criticizing. It’s just the way humans are i suppose. After looking through the phone comes the joint Facebook account lol, so she can monitor him there as well. 😉

  90. Quote PF: ” Also, I am compromising and moving out of the country with BD.”

    This strikes me as a case of playing up “compromise”.

    On one hand she wants to move in with him and knew he was moving out of the country.

  91. @ John I don’t want to derail the thread into something OT and I have argued this on other posts before, my only point is that you conflate SMV and RMV as if they’re the same, which they aren’t, and then compare an older woman’s SMV to an older man’s RMV, which are different things but you state it as an SMV to SMV comparison. So I dont think im being “harsh”, I know older guys can have good RMV, Im just saying pure SMV for a man or woman at 50 plus is equally very low…that isnt harsh, everyone ages so actually its quite fair, everyone 50 was once 25 and everyone who is 25 has being 50 to look forward to.

    I’m not saying that older women’s SMV doesn’t decay, of course it does. But you’re comparing her SMV to his RMV and specifically his ability to “provide”. Which isn’t an apt comparison IMO bc an older woman who is willing to “provide” for a younger man will not have any problem at all finding high SMV men of limited means willing to take that offer. Young people are poor, so there will always be plenty of them who are willing to trade their youth and high SMV for financial assistance.

    We don’t know PF’s financial situation or how much she supports herself versus relies or intends to rely on BD. We know she’s “corporate” and has lived alone a long time and that BD is budget conscious and unwilling to spend or commingle money, which would indicate that she is self supporting and he won’t be paying for her. Otoh, her wanting to move into his house and her comments about the ring do imply that maybe she is hoping for some level of financial support, in which case I would agree with you that she likely won’t be happy about the situation in 5 years if they break up. However, if she is and plans on remaining financially independent, then the two of them are in no worse situation, relative to each other, 5 or 10 years from now, if they break up. It really depends on that. If they keep finances separate and split their bills the whole time, then they both get the cost savings of living together and neither is negatively impacted in a financial sense if they break up.

    I don’t really disagree with anything else you said John, except the idea that men would feel “emasculated” to not be able to provide for a woman, I don’t think that is at all true of Gen X or Millenial guys. I think they generally prefer (either strongly or mildly) NOT to provide for a woman and if they get into a serious relationship or marriage they actively look for a woman who brings earning power and no/low debt to the table.

  92. I didn’t think I’d get a response (because my comment didn’t call for it) and I was busy so pardon the late response.

    Name one thing I’ve ever said that shows I think PF is a unicorn woman. Be specific please.
    I love her very much, and she has many flaws, just like I do.

    I didn’t suggest what you think I did. I thought about teasing you about it, however (similar to how lovergirl likes to tease you).
    While I do care about you as a fanboy would a role model, I don’t worry for you so don’t put me in the same boat as the other paranoid folks. I’m a good judge of character. I study your pattern of behaviour and (thus far) it matches your words. So when you say “I walk my talk”, I trust you do.
    Geez, I never had so many miscommunication incidents as I do in your blogs. This comment section is cursed.

  93. @Lovergirl

    You are being silly. There will not be joint Facebook account nor will I monitor him there. I chose to spend my life on things that make me happy; monitoring BD’s every move would be exhausting and pointless. I would rather spend my time directly with him instead of figuring out what his next move will be on social media. As far as looking at his phone, I have never demanded or asked to look at his phone, it was offered. I have only seen his phone twice in the full year we have been together and have not looked at his phone since. We were sitting together during these two times so I don’t think this is as of a big of deal as you are making it out to be. Maybe one day you’ll be more open to how our relationship works because we are quite happy with it:)

  94. @ KryptoKate

    As always your comments are intelligent and thoughtful. I won’t debate the RMV vs SMV point with you…your point is valid. I have found that for older guys their RMV and SMV are closer than for women but regardless your point is fair.

    To clarify, I didn’t say that a guy would feel emasculated by not being able to provide for a woman. I said he would feel emasculated if SHE provided for him. I saw a stat somewhere that in relationships where the woman is the primary provider the guys is like 3x more likely to cheat or something along those lines. I do think that holds true even for the younger generations.

  95. 88 comments ?!! .. why is everyone being so paranoiac about it.

    Not everyone. Just LG and John Galt, both of whom I have to assume have some hidden emotional stuff bubbling to the surface that have nothing to do with the relationship life of a blogger they read; there can be no other reason for their hysterics that I can think of (though of course I could be wrong).

    Most of the commenters here are positive and supportive, but the way the internet works, those who disagree always make much more noise (more comments and longer comments) than those who agree.

    In my opinion, the reason people are commenting on this thread so much isn’t that people are worried about BD (I mean please…BD is fine) but that there is a crazy amount of rationalization and cognitive dissonance going on here. The funny thing about CD is you can’t see it when you are experiencing it.

    It’s hard to tell (since you’re so distraught about all this), but I’m not sure if you’re referring to me here. If you are, please tell me exactly what I have said in the article or anywhere in these comments that demonstrate I’m experiencing cognitive dissonance. Please be very specific.

  96. Lover girl is like judge Judy lol. I would hate to have her against me! Congrats on your engagement bd and pink firefly!

  97. @BD

    Distraught? What are you talking about? What have I said that sounds distraught? Please be very specific.

    I was specific in my comments about where your CD is coming into play. I am NOT expecting you to agree with me because by definition people experiencing CD don’t see it. Obviously a number of commenters here agree with me. I am not trying to convince you. I am just pointing out what I see.

    But to answer your question: Agreeing to get married (in whatever form) to someone that clearly has a Disney view on marriage. Agreeing to buy an engagement ring. Agreeing to let her go through your phone. Agreeing to pair bond with a woman that HATES you fucking other women. Agreeing to have to FBs outside the home (and probably spend money for an AirBnB or hotel). And just in general agreeing to in invite hassle into your life. You, of course, justify all of it as “not important” or “not really a compromise bc I would have done it anyway” or “it is worth it because PF is so awesome” or “whatever.”

  98. Distraught? What are you talking about? What have I said that sounds distraught? Please be very specific.

    Okay.

    You can see it in her words. She HATES HATES HATES that he fucks other women.

    The cost and logistics of not being able to have a FB at your house to me would be a deal killer. Having a woman (any woman) go through my phone and give me a hard time about how I text another woman…yea that is never going to happen.

    It does seem like BD had done his homework as usual and thought it through but I can’t help feeling like the “boiling the frog” comment another commenter made might be more accurate than BD thinks.

    Trust me that is not high ground she is going to give up any time soon. That’s Women 101. lol

    @Lovergirl Mike drop! lol

    I am not sure how you square any of that with an engagement ring being anything other than a commitment to spend money in an effort to appease a woman you have feelings for. Using it as a barometer for commitment is laughable.

    Oh come on. If PF moves to New Zealand (or wherever) and she moves into her late 40s saying she will have the same SMV as BD is ridiculous and I think you know it.

    PF is still obviously in a Disney fantasy world

    PF is way out of her league. It isn’t even close.

    Do any of you FOR A SECOND think PF would be with BD if he wasn’t successful?

    BD seems OK with all that Disney nonsense I have to claim there is some serious CD going on here.

    She BADLY wants to get married. She has ALWAYS wanted to get married. Things will end at some point

    Do you see anyone else in this thread (besides LG) screaming this much?

    The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks.

    Agreeing to get married (in whatever form) to someone that clearly has a Disney view on marriage.

    How? Be very specific please. Also read objection number 2 here before answering.

  99. None of that is distraught. Giving my opinion is not being distraught?

    Definition: distraught
    deeply upset and agitated.
    Example: “a distraught woman sobbed and screamed for help”

    I am not upset or agitated. Just surprised is all.

    The reason I say PF has a Disney view is the whole engagement ring thing and that she thinks that the cost of a ring measures a man’s level of commitment. Further, the fact that she has always wanted to get married. Her words clearly imply that she sees things changing is some way when she is married. Somehow becoming better and just the fact that she seems to feel that marriage somehow changes anything.

  100. I’m not talking about PF. PF is a girl. I’m talking about me. I told you to show me how I, Blackdragon am demonstrating cognitive dissonance. You have not. Now I’m asking you how I, Blackdragon view this as Disney. Can you, or no?

  101. @BD

    I never said you were Disney. Re-read what I wrote.

    Agreeing to get married (in whatever form) to someone that clearly has a Disney view on marriage

    Meaning PF has a Disney view on marriage and you are agreeing to marry her.

    You asked me to be specific about how you were demonstrating cognitive dissonance. One of my examples was that you were willing to marry someone that clearly has a Disney view of marriage.

     

  102. Yeah you keep calling me hysterical. Where are you getting this from? Saying I’m entertained and amused is “hysterical”? There is no hysteria involved. I just think it’s funny…

  103. So I’m not Disney and I’m not experiencing cognitive dissonance. Thank you.

    To other commenters, this is what happens when you don’t communicate your ideas clearly (because you’re distraught or hysterical). Please try to be very specific and clear when you put forth points here. It’s not that hard.

    Also, if you’re feeling upset or emotional, please go cool off for a few hours (or even a day) before you leave a comment here that attempts to make a specific point. We’ve been having a lot of trouble with that here lately with various commenters who said crazy shit then later admitted (publicly or privately) they were having a bad day or bad week or were upset about something else. This wastes everyone’s time and damages helpful discourse. As I’ve already said in a recent thread, please don’t make me add a sixth rule to commenting here. Five should be enough.

    Thanks in advance.

  104. @John Galt

    Yes, I admit I apparently suffer from “Disney,” you act like it is the worst thing in the world and that I am some alien coming from another planet. Many women like myself want to get engaged at some point in their lives when they find the right person, (receive an engagement ring) and get married. I don’t see this as a bad thing. I also don’t see why BD wanting to marry someone who has “Disney” is so bad. Big deal. He’s does not have “Guy-Disney” so why does it matter?  Is it such a big deal that he met a woman who wants these things? Whether or not we decide to marry should not matter to you. Being happy is what matters.  
     
    I never said that marriage will change things. I said that I want to get married and being married is something I have wanted for a while. Being married does not change anything, it just changes the fact I am no longer just another OLTR and I get to spend many, many years with BD.
     
     I agree, I did say I want an engagement ring and how the ring can measure a man’s level of commitment. Yes, that is true based on my past relationship experience.  I don’t plan to live with a man forever and hope we get married someday. The ring shows a level of commitment that he does in fact want to move forward with the next step, rather than me moving in and waiting for something that might not come. Obviously you don’t agree and that is fine, but being a woman and having a “Disney” views is pretty normal. Go check out the women’s blogs, you’ll see “Disney” splattered all over their pages.
     

  105. @PF

    I never said it was “the worst thing in the world.”

    It is just odd that BD of all people would decide to pair bond with someone so Disney. That was all I was saying.

    The fact that you are asking why it is a big deal (actually it isn’t a big deal at all) is a little odd if you have read BD’s stuff which I of course assume you have. It is as simple as the fact that if one person has a Disney view of the world and the other person has a realistic view of the world that never works out well. And being Disney basically means you choose to not see reality. That is never a good thing.

    BD makes fun of people (men and women both) mercilessly (with good reason) that are Disney. You are Disney. That’s just weird.

    So let me ask you a direct question and be honest. Let’s say you and BD are together 10-15 years and he decides, “Hey, you know what, this just isn’t working for me. It has been great and we have had a nice run but this has run its course. I want you to be happy but this no longer makes me happy.”

    How are you going to feel about that? Are you going to wish BD well and be on your way or are you going to feel pissed and cheated in any way?

  106. It is just odd that BD of all people would decide to pair bond with someone so Disney. That was all I was saying.

    @John Galt: I once asked BD about the apparent incompatibility between his nonmonogamy and his being attracted to very feminine women who typically have much more Disney. He said that feminine women are also more flexible. I don’t know if that’s enough of an explanation for you, but I personally found it plausible. At the end of the day I think only people who have actually had many nonmono relationships with high Disney chicks can really relate to a girly girl’s POV dealing with an alpha 2.0.

    That being said, if I was very attracted to girly chicks and wanted to bring one over to the dark side, I would definitely use a step-into-my-web approach rather than hitting her with all the rules in their max level of rigidity straight away. All that matters in the end is that I remain nonmono and low drama. In fact I think that many guys who are very “ordinary” in their tastes somewhat resent that they had to look for more “fringe” type girls in order to get nonmonogamy; if BD can, with a few compromises, get a girl from completely outside of the redpill world into his world, then I’m calling that a big win. My equivalent would be turning a melancholic blue-eyed Russian blonde into my porn star, or something.
    This scenario and the betaization scenario would look the same in the early phases, and we’re focusing on the latter because imminent trouble is more interesting to talk about.

  107. You definitely do!

    I’ve known for many years that any woman I got into an OLTR marriage with would have a decent amount of Disney, due to the fact I prefer feminine women, and I’ve stated this publicly several times over the years. Still no cognitive dissonance.

    You’re not doing very well in this thread, my distraught friend. This is my final response to you here. Feel free to keep commenting though!

  108. Neither Lovergirl nor John Galt are distraught. They are both awesome in this thread. So is Kryptokate. The only one who is distraught over this is me, as I will now demonstrate here and in the comments to come.

    @Gil Galad:

    Let’s give PF a break.

    I have a much better idea: NO!!!

    @Pink Firefly:

    I see a lot of comments about the fact that I don’t like BD fucking FB’s on the side. My response to that is of course I don’t like it. Any normal woman who is in love with their boyfriend and who is planning to marry him does not actually want him fucking other women on the side, especially now during the NRE phase.

    You are very hurtful and cruel. And you obviously know less than nothing about the poly community! My girlfriend , until recently when our dynamic has changed dramatically, used to literally hook me up with my side women. She would do all the work of finding them, introducing me to them, and encouraging them to sleep with me. All I had to do was seduce them, but my girl hunted for them for me so I didn’t have to.

    Note: With few exceptions, we didn’t have threesomes or group sex with these women (we saved that virtually exclusively for her social circle). Rather, these women were my fuck buddies whom I had sex with on the side without my main girl. And they all came from my main girl finding them and hooking us up!

    And yes, a couple of years ago, she wanted to marry me (albeit unofficially, no paperwork), but I said no because without the “till death do us part” aspect, there are no vows to make in front of an audience that wouldn’t sound ridiculous. I made it clear to her that we’d never marry and she’s find with it. She still hooked me up with my side women though.

    Your levels of Disney are vomit-worthy. More on that later.

     

  109. Just when I thought this thread was calming down, here comes Jack.

    Jack, PF is new to this world, not experienced in it like you are, and she’s been brave enough to come onto these threads and share her thoughts about things that are somewhat embarrassing for normal people and are completely against the norm. In other words, BE NICE. As I said in the first post about this, you can be as big of an asshole to me as you like, but not to her.

    I’m asking nicely. (See? I can be nice too.) The next I have to mention this, I will not be so nice.

  110. @BD

    A) Not distraught. lol

    B) You have so made my point. Your CD is breathtaking. Every sentence you write trying to prove you don’t have it shows how bad you have it. If you actually read and absorbed the comments people have written in response to mine it would be obvious. I am not emotionally invested in proving anything. You are so emotionally invested in proving that everything you are doing that is at odds with all that you have espoused all these years really isn’t what it looks like is completely hilarious. I pointed out 5 or 6 reasons proving your CD and you tried to refute one.

    I know you are a fan of Scott Adam’s blog and so am I. He’s fucking genius. OMG I wish he could read and comment on your CD. It’s textbook!

  111. BE NICE. As I said in the first post about this, you can be as big of an asshole to me as you like, but not to her.

    I’m asking nicely. (See? I can be nice too.) The next I have to mention this, I will not be so nice.

    Sigh. Then I can’t speak to her at all, then. Fine. I’ll only talk to you and others here, but I’ll be ignoring her from now on, as most things that she articulates fill me with a huge sense of disgust.

     

  112. And you obviously know less than nothing about the poly community!

    I’m actually legitimately curious here…where did you end up meeting your current GF? My views on sex are close to yours/hers, and it seems somewhat rare to run into chicks who share them on the typical online sites (OKC, tinder, etc)

  113. @Gil Galad

    I once asked BD about the apparent incompatibility between his nonmonogamy and his being attracted to very feminine women who typically have much more Disney. He said that feminine women are also more flexible. I don’t know if that’s enough of an explanation for you, but I personally found it plausible.

    This is true, feminine women tend to be more submissive and hence more likely to go along with the parameters you lay down in a relationship.

    You’re not getting some extremely dominant woman to agree to an OLTR unless it’s her that’s deciding she wants one… In which case you’re probably screwed because you’re the submissive one in the relationship and likely beta.

    @John Galt
    My OLTR wife is also very feminine and Disney minded, naturally she’s not particularly happy about it being an OLTR, but that’s life. She has to accept it if she wants to be with me, just like I have to accept things about her. Otherwise it’s a certainty I’d end up cheating anyway, so no point lying about it or pretending to be someone I’m not.

    I think it’s a fairly typical OLTR situation where one party (usually the one with lower SMV or who perceives themselves as having lower SMV) is more willing to make compromises they’re not necessarily happy with.

  114. Well didn’t expect you to consider my country. It might be a little boring here for you, not sure how you will fare with our girls, should be enough available for you though. Check out findsomeone, it’s our local dating site net dating is fairly popular.
    You might want to consider Tasmania or Perth (in Australia) both also remote, Tazzy is very close to Melbourne etc, but ozzy is a cheap flight away from nz anyway.
    Don’t move to Whanganui, Whangarei is nice, but you may have a short supply of girls there (especially good looking/fit).
    Living in Rural Auckland especially north or west might be a good option. The housing market is overheated at the moment, so is ozzy.
    Also consider Tauranga, very nice there and has great weather. Nelson is nice too, bit smaller just a ferry ride away from Wellington though.
    If you have any questions about my country do let me know.

  115. A woman chooses a man hoping he will change, and he doesn’t. A man chooses a woman hoping she wont change, and she does.

  116. I’m currently in New Zealand, where women outnumber men. The people here are definitely more relaxed than in the US. If winter gets too cold for you in NZ, Australia and Fiji are easily accessible.

  117. @Parade:

    I’m actually legitimately curious here…where did you end up meeting your current GF? My views on sex are close to yours/hers, and it seems somewhat rare to run into chicks who share them on the typical online sites (OKC, tinder, etc)

    Actually, I got lucky. She had profiles on both POF and OKC. I first contacted her on OKC, as her profile was very bad ass and anti-Disney. She has always used her social circle for group sex, but she’d use online dating to get FBs, which would or would not later become FWBs, MLTRs, and possibly serious OLTRs. This has changed now, as her only source of sex at this point is her own pagan in group, but back then, she wanted to reach out to the mainstream to convert certain men (and women) to her lifestyle.

    I didn’t need any converting though, and part of what allowed us to progress ultimately to the OLTR stage was our fundamentally more or less identical sexual attitudes and lifestyles. On our first date, she’s the one that told me she’ll never do monogamy, for example.

     

  118. She’s actually the first woman in my life that I actually miss a little bit when she’s gone. (Seriously. I’ve never “missed” any woman before, even in prior serious relationships.)

    Ah, getting old! 🙂

  119. Thanks for this post, just tried for the talk with someone I like the other day and this helps me understand a lot of expectations and compromises etc that the girl may have…And overall shed some light when she reacts to not getting what she wants. Thank you for your work!

  120. Wow.

    I honestly don’t get it, all the attacks. BD has identified everything that makes traditional marriages not work, and taken those things out, yet everyone is screaming as though he just announced “I’ve decided to get monogamous and have a traditional legal marriage without a prenup!” Weird.

    Nobody seems interested in what’s really interesting here which are the mechanics of how this is going down, and looking for insights how we might correctly do this ourselves, something I’ve wondered for a long time.

    “I have slowly been nexting them and/or just not contacting them”

    I am a bit confused by this. I thought “nexting” WAS “just not contacting”. Isn’t it?

    Is there any way to do this without “burning” them, or do you assume once you do this there will be no getting them back? I’ve been wondering this for a long time. I have some FB‘s I want to next but I’d like to be able to come back to them, or downgrade them from once a week to once a month, without pissing them off too much. Can it be done without hurt feelings?

    I think BY FAR the biggest question here is exactly how you are going to handle drama with a live-in relationship? I realize, you have spent years with her and obviously pre-screened her for being the kind of girl that it won’t be a major problem supposedly, but we all know that living together has a way of changing this kind of thing. How exactly are you going to handle a situation that would have called for a “next” with a normal girl?

    You mention in the article having “weeks of drama” would result in a breakup. But what if it’s not so drawn out? What if it is more spread out, and yet, more and more regular? What if it’s an hour a day? three days a month? Does she get X number of days in a year? This sounds silly, but at the same time, knowing you, you must have some kind of formula/definition in mind to quantify your limits in this new scenario.

    Also I can’t believe nobody else noticed this, but you said the date is April 1st? April fool’s day? Is that to satisfy some kind of tongue in cheek thing for your own personal opinion of marriage or just a coincidence?

     

  121. I honestly don’t get it, all the attacks. BD has identified everything that makes traditional marriages not work, and taken those things out, yet everyone is screaming as though he just announced “I’ve decided to get monogamous and have a traditional legal marriage without a prenup!” Weird.

    The reasons are:

    1. Low reading comprehension.

    2. A few guys who had a problem with me to begin with and are looking for reasons to bitch about me.

    Nobody seems interested in what’s really interesting here which are the mechanics of how this is going down, and looking for insights how we might correctly do this ourselves, something I’ve wondered for a long time.

    A huge amount of people are interested about this; that’s why I’m talking about it. Commenters do not equal readers (which sometimes is a good thing).

    I am a bit confused by this. I thought “nexting” WAS “just not contacting”. Isn’t it?

    No. A soft next is (normally) a response to something bad a woman does, and she knows you’re doing it. I just stopped contacting a few women who didn’t do anything wrong because I had too many. And a few of these women haven’t even realized I’ve done it.

    Is there any way to do this without “burning” them, or do you assume once you do this there will be no getting them back?

    Yeah. Exactly what I did. Just stop contacting them. No conversation or argument, just let them go.

    I think BY FAR the biggest question here is exactly how you are going to handle drama with a live-in relationship?

    That’s a big topic. I will have a lot to say about that later, in great detail.

    You mention in the article having “weeks of drama” would result in a breakup. But what if it’s not so drawn out? What if it is more spread out, and yet, more and more regular?

    That would be a serious problem too. ANY drama incurred in my life, even tiny little drip, is a compromise on my part, so any “regular” drama would be a serious showstopper.

    What if it’s an hour a day? three days a month? Does she get X number of days in a year? This sounds silly, but at the same time, knowing you, you must have some kind of formula/definition in mind to quantify your limits in this new scenario.

    I do. I’ll talk about it later. A lot.

    Also I can’t believe nobody else noticed this, but you said the date is April 1st? April fool’s day? Is that to satisfy some kind of tongue in cheek thing for your own personal opinion of marriage or just a coincidence?

    That date was picked for several reasons, but yeah, one of the funny ones did come to mind. The rest I can’t tell you. 🙂

  122. I’m confused:

    Pink Firefly says:”As far as looking at his phone, I have never demanded or asked to look at his phone, it was offered. I have only seen his phone twice in the full year we have been together and have not looked at his phone since. ”

    BD says:”We spent the entire weekend together last weekend, the first time we had seen each other in a week, and she didn’t ask to look at my phone the entire time. (I’m sure it’s possible she looked at it without mentioning it, but normally I would know because she either asks to or mentions it.)”

    Someone isn’t telling the truth.

    What strikes me about PF is not that she’s Disney but that she is assertive and maybe a bit of a domme, her comment about tying up BD: “(I like the tied up part ;)) ”

    The heart wants what it wants.  Best of luck BD.

  123. Pink Firefly says:”As far as looking at his phone, I have never demanded or asked to look at his phone, it was offered. I have only seen his phone twice in the full year we have been together and have not looked at his phone since. ”

    BD says:”We spent the entire weekend together last weekend, the first time we had seen each other in a week, and she didn’t ask to look at my phone the entire time. (I’m sure it’s possible she looked at it without mentioning it, but normally I would know because she either asks to or mentions it.)”

    Someone isn’t telling the truth.

    You’re quoting her out of context. She was saying she never asked or demanded to look at my phone before I offered it the first time. Once I offered it as something she could do, she asked (twice, I think).

    What strikes me about PF is not that she’s Disney but that she is assertive and maybe a bit of a domme, her comment about tying up BD: “(I like the tied up part ;)) ”

    She wasn’t referring to tying me up. She was referring to her being tied up. Mmmmmm…

    She’s the opposite of a Dominant. Of course. 🙂

    Best of luck BD.

    I’m already the luckiest man in the world. I have been for a very, very long time.

  124. BD, the way you phrased it made it seem like it was more often than twice ever:  “she didn’t ask to look at my phone the whole time…”   as if that were (literally) remarkable.  “Normally I would know because she either asks or mentions it” etc.  Like a few others who commented, I put myself in the camp of  “my phone is my business”.

    However, I have to admit that *I* have not been able to orchestrate an OLTR with FB‘s – the only way I have been able to date multiple women is to maintain privacy.

    As for the rest – as long as somebody is getting tied up, it sounds like a good time.

    I look forward to your future posts.

  125. I think BY FAR the biggest question here is exactly how you are going to handle drama with a live-in relationship?

    Can’t speak for any one else, but my biggest question is how much your spending will go up after she moves in. Having already caught a glimpse of PF’s personality, it seems likely that she will want to be taken care of to some extent. Will be interesting how this unfolds seeing that you’ve described yourself as cheap/minimalist. You’ve already talked about upgrading the type of car you drive recently. Shouldn’t be too bad I’d imagine; for a guy in your position anyway. It’s not like you’re gonna get all of control and in debt like some guys would in a more traditional relationship.

  126. Can anyone tell me what benefits BD will reap from being married?  Including BD himself?!  BD gave a very vague explanation saying: “marriage means whatever you want it to mean”.  Which is provably false.  Marriage has a legal definition with corresponding rights and obligations.  He may be able to shield himself from some of those obligations.  If get gets a prenup and if a judge doesn’t throw it out.  But it marriage seems like a very foolish thing to do.  Especially for someone who admits that modern marriages are temporary.

    Also BD seems to be changing his tune about boundaries.  First he says that his OLTR being able to look though is phone, and him not banging women in his own house is “the final comprise in this area”.  Then later he says: “They are the final compromises until she moves in. Once she moves in, there will have to be a few more…”   In other words he agreed to bad logistics that make it much more difficult and expensive for him to fuck women.  But it’s the last compromise… until the next compromise.

    I’ve seen this before and even had it happen to me.  My brothers wife was fine with him banging other women, until she had a ring on her finger; and legally had him by the balls.  Then she demanded he stop or else…  I made it clear to my ex-girlfriend that monogamy was off of the table.  She agreed to it.  We swung and she had a couple of threesomes.  Until I started my masters program and I was dependent on her babysitting my son so I had time to study.  Then she started demanding ridiculous restrictions that made it impossible for me to get laid to try and force me into defacto monogamy.

    I hope I’m wrong.  But if I had to put money on it I’d wager that BD is heading for a crash.  In a year or two he’ll be  subjugated by his wife,  just stop writing, and disappear from the manosphere like Paul Janka did.  It will be interesting to follow his writing in the meantime.

  127. BD gave a very vague explanation saying: “marriage means whatever you want it to mean”.  Which is provably false.  Marriage has a legal definition with corresponding rights and obligations.  He may be able to shield himself from some of those obligations.  If get gets a prenup and if a judge doesn’t throw it out.

    On the 20th I’ll be posting the 9 different ways to structure a legal marriage, which will answer this. Read that then.

    To once again repeat what I said in the last update post I had about this:

    In terms of us actually getting married, some of you seem to think I’m a moron and that I won’t take my own advice. Trust me, I will. I always do. There are about five different ways one can get “married.” I’ll discuss this more in future posts.

    But if I had to put money on it I’d wager that BD is heading for a crash.  In a year or two he’ll be  subjugated by his wife,  just stop writing, and disappear from the manosphere like Paul Janka did.

    I’m not Paul Janka; his objective was always monogamy “someday.” Mine never has been. I will be posting on this blog until 2024, as I’ve said many times.

    Just like the guys who said I couldn’t make money playing blackjack, in one year, and again in two years, I’m going to link back to these comments, saying I’m going to go monogamous, or turn into a pussy, or vanish from the manosphere, to show everyone what you guys were saying. And trust me, I’ll make sure these comments are still here 1 and 2 years from now, so everyone can see your irrationality. It will be a fun day for me. 🙂

    Can someone please monetize this whole scene

    I already did.

    Care to guess how much money I’ve made on this one post alone? Traffic here (and sales) always gets a nice spike when I talk about Pink Firefly.

  128. BD,

    One question for you: when you have moved abroad permanently with PF, how are you going to sarge for new FB‘s?

    Are you still going with the 85% player and 15% provider frame or is this going to change since you already have a live-in OLTR and there is no way you are going to consider MLTRs?

  129. how are you going to sarge for new FB’s?

    The same way I do now, except I’ll have to break the news that I’m “taken” at some point in the process. This means I’ll have to focus on younger women (sadly) since they have less ASD and care much less about this kind of thing. I may even screen for women who already have boyfriends, since they tend to make the best FB‘s in this kind of scenario.

    I’ll talk more specifics about this later.

    Are you still going with the 85% player and 15% provider frame or is this going to change since you already have a live-in OLTR and there is no way you are going to consider MLTRs?

    The frame will be exactly the same. I can exude 15% provider without lying about anything. (If I wanted to exude 50% provider, for example, that might be a problem.)

  130. @BD:

    You mentioned two reasons for the negative commentary this post has received:

    1. Low reading comprehension.

    2. A few guys who had a problem with me to begin with and are looking for reasons to bitch about me.

    I’d like to submit a third.

    It has to do with the high quality of your blog.  I’m not lying or exaggerating when I say this blog is the finest I’ve found–anywhere.  I’ve said it before; “You are doing God’s work”.  You attract a certain demographic: the 5% of men who critically examine the true, inner nature of man/woman relations, courageously admit what they see without hiding it, and genuinely seek to improve their long-term happiness.  For years, against our will, we have been exposed to multiple examples of toxic betaization and oneitis–from our families, the media, former PUAs like Neil Strauss or David Deangelo, and all our friends who have gone the route of traditional monogamous marriage.  For myself, three of my coworkers embarked on TMM within the last year!  Each time, though I wanted to set them straight, I chose to hold my tongue.  Each time, when on a first date and the woman indulges in some blessed inanity about “Disney“, I choose to hold my tongue.  Each time, when an acquaintance posts something “romantic” on Facebook and gets dozens of “likes”, I choose to hold my tongue.

    Thus, assuming other men are also holding their tongues, we have this vast buildup of pent-up frustration and rage with nowhere to go.  Then, along come you and PF.  Of course, you are doing things the right way, but no matter–for unlike the others you provide a high quality forum!  At last, out come the heartfelt things we had wanted to say to all those betas all these years but didn’t.  Hence, whether you deserve it or not, you act as a lightning rod to attract the festering venting of good men who are on the right path.

    So, my formulation of reason 3:

    3. After years of keeping silent, men who have been deeply frustrated at the betaization they see finally have an outlet–and, whether you deserve it or not, it’s you.

    Thanks so much to you both for opening your life up to us in this way.

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