A little while back, I posted this article about how I stated that it’s a very bad idea to pay for sex unless you already know how to get laid easily for free and you can easily afford it based on your income and expenses. Go read that article for more details as to the reasons I have for this opinion.

In posting that article, I received some of the most bizarrely irrational comments I’ve ever seen posted on this blog by people who weren’t defending monogamy. When I was reading them, I seriously haven’t shaken my head in disbelief like that in quite a while.

Since only a minuscule percentage of a blog’s readers actually post comments on articles, I know that if I see lots of comments saying the same kind of thing, I can reasonably assume that thousands of you out there think the same, or at least similarly.

This is disappointing and a little disconcerting. A lot of you seem to think that regularly paying a woman cash for sex is no big deal. It is a big deal, big bad deal, for you, your frame, your self-esteem, and your healthy view of women, sex, and relationships. Go back and read that linked article above for why.

Today I’m going to refute the arguments made in those comments, as well as a few I received in my email.

Many of the arguments can be summed up by these two:

Argument 1: Hey, paying for sex can be fun!

Argument 2: I think paying for sex is okay if you want to do it.

I never said paying for sex can’t be fun. I said it’s bad for you. If something is bad for you, it doesn’t matter if you consider it fun or if you want to do it.

If you want to smoke a pack of cigarettes a day, you could argue that it’s fun and that it makes you feel good, and that you want to do it or at least want to try it. Great, but that wasn’t my argument. My argument is that smoking a pack of cigarettes a day is bad for you and will make you suffer over time.

Just because you love cigarettes doesn’t mean you won’t get lung cancer or experience other health problems later in life. The carcinogens and your cells don’t give a shit about what you “like.” The odds are pretty decent that you’re going to have health problems eventually, regardless of whether you think it’s fun or not, or safe or not.

It’s also true that you’re probably not going to have any health problems the very first time you smoke a bunch of cigarettes. But if you do it over a prolonged period of time, you probably will.

If you want to pay for sex because you think it’s fun, then go ahead. As I always say, it’s your life. Do whatever you want. Get traditionally, monogamously married. Shoot heroin. Pay for sex. Go for it. But don’t tell me these things won’t hurt you eventually. They will.

Argument 3: Paying for sex can be good because you can experience something it would normally be hard for you to experience, like fuck an Asian girl. Maybe there aren’t a lot of Asian girls where you live.

Hopefully, I don’t have to explain how dumb this argument is. If you want to fuck an Asian girl, go fuck an Asian girl for free. I’ve fucked hordes of them for free, and they’re only 6% of the population where I live. It’s not that hard. If you don’t know how, learn how. Pickup and dating is a learnable skill.

You can apply this to any particular thing you want to experience. So you want to fuck a black girl, Hispanic girl, a girl with fake boobs, a girl with a fat ass, have a threesome, or whatever. All of these things are not only doable, but are not even that difficult. You don’t have to pay for sex to do it.

If you want to argue that paying for sex to get these things takes less time, then that’s fine, provided you’ve met the two criteria I described at the top of this article.

Argument 4: There’s nothing wrong with trying it once.

Raise your hand if you know anyone who’s fucked a prostitute or sugar baby just once and then literally never did it again.

I don’t see any hands.

Stupid argument. If you do it once, you’ll do it again. And again, and again. The fact that it’s so easy is why it’s so addictive.

I have received numerous emails from men over the years who “can’t stop” paying for sex once they’ve tried it. As just one example, I have someone in my own family who is literally addicted to Seeking Arrangement. He goes on there and pays for hot younger women to fuck him, and he literally can’t stop even though he’s tried several times. Last year he went into counseling for this. And by the way, he is a decent-looking, physically fit, high-income guy in his 30s who could easily fuck hot younger women for free, and in a healthy way, if he just learned the same techniques that I learned when I was his age.

Argument 5: Old guys who want to fuck hot, young women have no choice. They have to pay for it.

That depends on what you mean by “old.”

If you’re talking about men who are over the age of 60, then you are correct. Once you’re over 60, if you want to bang young hotties, you’re going to have to throw some money around. I have said this many times and for many years.

If you’re taking about an “old-ish” guy (over 40 or so) who has really let his looks go (gotten fat, bald, shitty skin, dresses like shit, etc), then that guy would be long-term happier if he cleaned up his health and appearance, rather than compounding his beta male status by paying for sex.

By the way, this has nothing to do with women. Even if that dumpy guy wants to go extreme MGTOW and never have sex with a woman for the rest of his life, he should still clean up his health and appearance, as I explained here.

If you’re talking about guys in their 40’s, then no, you are wrong. I’m in my forties and I have sex with younger women all the time, for free. Hundreds, if not thousands of men reading this blog are also in their 40’s doing the same.

If you’re talking about guys in their 50’s, then no, you are still wrong, though I agree the difficulty bar is raised somewhat. Regardless, I personally know eight men who are in their 50’s and are dating women in their twenties right now, from ages 23 to 29, for free, without giving them any money. These are men I personally know, not just random guys I’ve seen post on a blog or forum somewhere.

Only two of these men I would say are good-looking. The rest are typical looking guys, though none of them are fat; they all take decent care of themselves (as you should if you’re that old). One of them is wealthy, and one other is on the wealthy side, but the other six are not rich at all; they have typical incomes that you would expect of a man in his 50’s ($50,000 per year and up), living normal lifestyles.

These guys take all the usual advice I give older guys. Take care of your appearance, put in the numbers, don’t get discouraged by low response rates, focus on Type 2 VYW and ignore the Type 1’s and 3’s, don’t act like a creeper, don’t be a beta, don’t try to act younger, etc. It takes time and effort, but it’s not that hard.

I’m about to turn 45 in a few weeks. That means I’ll be in my 50’s in just five years, and I will still be messing around with younger women from time to time, for free. Just watch.

Seriously, some of you older guys are just as full of excuses as the Millennials. Stop with the fucking excuses.

Argument 6: It’s okay to do it if you’re working on your dating skills at the same time.

No, it’s not. Getting laid by paying for it will actually produce a disincentive to put in the work necessary to get good at dating. Why spend all that time meeting women at the mall or sending out hundreds of online openers when you can just whip out $200 and get laid right now? If you keep doing that, you’ll stop focusing on the work necessary to learn how to get laid for free.

And then you’ll suffer all the negative consequences I outlined in the first article about this.

This is why many guys recommend that you don’t masturbate at all when trying to get laid with new women. Sometimes you need all the incentive you can get. You murder that incentive if you’re paying for sex when you need it.

Argument 7: Paying for sex is okay if you’ve got a regular woman (an MLTR or OLTR) that you’re already having sex with regularly.

That’s fine and I agree, provided you’ve also met those two criteria: you can easily get laid with new women for free, and you can easily afford it based on your income, expenses, and financial picture. I myself am looking at this option for my future, but I’ve already met those two criteria a very long time ago.

If you have an MLTR/OLTR but can’t afford it, then NO, you should not be paying for sex until you clean up your financial life.

If you have an OLTR girlfriend or wife but are the typical guy and have no idea how to get out into the real world and have sex with two or more women within 30 days for free, starting from scratch, then NO, you should not be paying for sex until you learn how to do this.

Once you’ve met both of those criteria, if you want to start paying for side-women, I have no problem with this and may even do it myself someday.

Argument 8: It’s okay to do it if you’re a virgin and want to get from A to B quickly.

This is the one argument that I agree with, and the one exception to my rule here. Yes, if you’re a virgin, it will be easier to get laid for free if you’ve already had sex, and if you’re terrified of escalating to sex (a common problem with virgins), seeing a hooker two to four times is a valid technique that I have recommended before.

Note that I said two to four times, not seeing hookers regularly. Bang a hooker two to four times so you’re comfortable with the concept of having sex, then stop seeing her, don’t ever see another hooker, and get out into the world and start having sex for free like a normal human being.

Argument 9: It’s okay to do it if you can pay to have sex with a really hot type of girl you can’t get in real life.

This is the same as argument 3, so refer back to that one. If you feel that you can’t fuck hot girls, then you need to learn how to. If you pay to have sex with hot girls, it will simply re-enforce your (incorrect) feeling that you can’t get hot girls unless you pay for it. Horrible!

Argument 10: I agree it would be bad to do it all the time, but doing it every once and a while is okay.

Huh? How so? No. Doing it “once and a while” is still doing it regularly, thus you will suffer all the negatives I outlined in the first article on this.

Argument 11: It’s easy for you to say BD, because you’re not ugly. Ugly guys’ only option is to pay for sex.

1. Look, Mr. Excuses, if you’re a burn victim with a scarred, Freddy Kruger face, or you have an obvious physical deformity like Quasimodo, then okay, you’ll probably have to pay for sex. But this kind of thing is well within the 2% rule and only a tiny percentage of men are going to have this issue.

2. If you’re “ugly,” it likely means you have a few things about your appearance you can fix. Lose weight, fix your teeth, address your thinning hair, or whatever. Do whatever you need to do to fix your appearance, which you should do regardless of sex. Don’t just throw your arms up in the air in surrender and say that you just have to pay for sex the rest of your life. That not only makes you a beta, but a loser as well.

3. I have personally coached hundreds of men over the years, perhaps over a thousand in some form or fashion. I can tell you for a fact that the majority of men who self-identify as “ugly” are not ugly. They are perfectly normal-looking and just think they’re ugly because of self-esteem issues, shitty upbringings, or just plain inexperience with women. Many times, guys who have told me they can’t get laid “because they’re ugly” were better-looking than me! I’m serious here and I’m not exaggerating.

If you seriously think you’re “ugly,” then email me a picture of yourself and I’ll tell you objectively if you’re ugly. There’s at least a 90% chance that my response will be either “you’re not ugly at all” or “you’d be fine if you just fixed this one problem (weight, hair, teeth, etc).”

Argument 12: It’s a simple cost benefit analysis. If I make $10,000 an hour, then I can pay $500 an hour for a sex, so it’s no problem.

You mean it’s no problem financially. It is a problem for you mentally since you will build up the false belief that you can only get laid (or get laid with hot girls) if you pay for it. This will damage your self-esteem and various other things. This is why there are two criteria, not just one; you should be able to afford it AND you should be able to get laid without having to pay for it. Under those two conditions, if you still want to pay for it, go right ahead.

(Excuses give me a headache.)

99 Comments on “When Is It Okay To Pay for Sex? – Part 2

  1. “If you want to smoke a pack of cigarettes a day, you could argue that it’s fun and that it makes you feel good, and that you want to do it or at least want to try it. Great, but that wasn’t my argument. My argument is that smoking a pack of cigarettes a day is bad for you and will make you suffer over time.”

     

    I rarely see analogies as nice as this. Well done and good point.

  2. Hi BD, feedback incoming:

    1) Every word your wrote in this article is spot on. 100% in agreement with my experience.

    2) You did mention in another article on this blog how much work it takes (“half-time job”) to maintain good looks past the age of 40.

    As you may know we are both 44 and my experience mirrors yours. Its a freaking job. We still have it easier than women our age, thank god.

    3) Did you notice how many males in around our age have lost all interest to maintain decent looks?

    They dont get their behind up to do even 5% of the stuff required to

    “he should still clean up his health and appearance”.

    Not joking here. “What a waste of time and energy” is what i did hear more than once when suggesting the above.

    So instead of doing the work, they pay and get their sex-fix and thus save an immense amount of time keeping up a good appearance.

    Bottomline: Sex for money is for lazy people. But they do have a point. They can afford to look like old shit and STILL get sex with young hotties. In the world of the rich and powerful its hard to draw a line. I am tempted to assume they might be more right than us.

  3. We talked briefly about Argument 6 in the other article.

    You take for granted that the guy in this situation will eventually fall into the “let’s go see a hooker instead” trap. Well, I know that this is a possibility but it all depends on the guy’s discipline and will. If you set clear, absolute boundaries and stick to the plan, like never, ever visit a hooker more than once every one or two months (just an example) and with a limit date, I don’t see where the problem is.

    It also depends on the guy’s history with girls. For someone with almost zero or little experience, I agree it is a bad idea but if you’ve had your history with girls and have a clear, correct, well established ideas in your head, which means if you know what you’re doing, I think it’s fine. You have to know yourself.

    Think about Argument 8. I agree with it too, but it’s also true that the guy in Arg. 8 has way more possibilities of falling into the hooker trap.

    As you say, everything in your life is your fault so the amount of will and discipline you put to be out of bad habits it’s also your responsibility.

  4. Most, if not all men age better than women. A 40ish year old man, if he takes the least basic psychical care, looks the equivalent of what women look like at age 30. Men age like wine, women like milk.

    The reason lots of married men look like crap in their 40s/50s is clear: marriage. Marriage is their downfall in self-care. Budget wise, all the money goes toward tending wife’s needs, upkeep and health.

  5. There is no right or wrong with this subject. Do what makes you happy…as long as it’s legal…ish. Guys like Elliot Rodgers can benefit greatly from seeing a hooker. He could’ve done whatever nasty thing he wanted, fulfilled his fantasies then maybe not drifted into isolation and depression.

    Prostitution has been around for a long time. There are definitely benefits. There are also negative consequences that have to be considered but it isn’t some grandiose moral dilemma. Just my two cents.

  6. Guys like Elliot Rodgers can benefit greatly from seeing a hooker. 

    Well, yes, possibly – but, happily, guys like Elliot Rodger are not the norm: most people don’t stab and shoot multiple anonymous people, whatever the provocation.

  7. Wasn’t Elliot Rodgers a virgin?  I think he needed to get started in some way, and know that the guy has to make all the first moves, despite what happens on tv and in movies.

     

  8. Wasn’t Elliot Rodgers a virgin?  I think he needed to get started in some way, and know that the guy has to make all the first moves, despite what happens on tv and in movies.

    Probably he was a virgin. But then you also get men who use prostitutes a lot and who become obsessed with harming or killing prostitutes and/or other women because they can’t get a “girlfriend of their own”. We read about these cases in the news from time to time.

    But these sorts of reactions and behaviours are not at all typical of men in general – indeed they are highly maladaptive and abnormal. The fact that prostitutes might (or might not) be helpful in situations like this is not really relevant for most men.

  9. My point was not to discuss Elliott R. but to suggest that giving mal-adjusted men an outlet for their pent up sexual energy can be a good thing.

  10. My point was not to discuss Elliott R. but to suggest that giving mal-adjusted men an outlet for their pent up sexual energy can be a good thing.

    That’s probably right; in fact, I’m sure it’s right. But my point was really that, for most men, including I am sure for most men reading here, it is better to learn to meet and relate to women in the “ordinary” way. That is not to deny that there are some situations where that is not possible and some men for whom it might not be possible – thought these are not ordinary situations, or ordinary men as the case may be.

  11. Yes, older men, listen to BD. I’m 26 (very petite, looks late-teens) and with someone who is 45. Steer clear of women who think being with you is gross. My 45 is not rich but takes care of himself– approached me in real life directly but calmly (once he got my age squared away)–very laid back. Not hesitating, nervous, and super careful like men my age. Someone who just appears in my eyes to not tolerate people making his life hell. I’m there to bring enjoyment and happiness in his life–mutually of course–hence I’m free (but I was also a Type 2 growing up).

  12. Did you notice how many males in around our age have lost all interest to maintain decent looks?

    Yes, and I’ve mentioned this before.

    Being over 40 in the West and still looking reasonably good is like being a superhero. You have the intellect and resources of an older man, but still decent enough where you don’t look “old” yet. It’s the best of both worlds.

    40’s is prime time when you’re a man, if you don’t fuck it up. It’s like being on top of the world.

    I’m happier now in my 40’s than I have ever been in my entire life (and that’s saying something!).

    You take for granted that the guy in this situation will eventually fall into the “let’s go see a hooker instead” trap. Well, I know that this is a possibility but it all depends on the guy’s discipline and will. If you set clear, absolute boundaries and stick to the plan, like never, ever visit a hooker more than once every one or two months (just an example) and with a limit date, I don’t see where the problem is.

    The problem is that man is the exception to the rule, and you don’t 100% know if you’re one of those odd exceptions until you try it, which is too late.

    The reason lots of married men look like crap in their 40s/50s is clear: marriage.

    Correct.

    There is no right or wrong with this subject.

    Incorrect. Certain things make you unhappy long-term, and certain things make you happy.

    Do what makes you happy…as long as it’s legal…ish.

    Wrong. See above.

    Guys like Elliot Rodgers can benefit greatly from seeing a hooker.

    1. Again, you guys are using bizarre and rare exceptions to the rule in order to prove your point. That means your point isn’t very good.

    2. We have no idea if hookers would have helped Roger. He could have been just as fucked up and done the same thing. He could have even been worse. Or he could have been better. He was insane and on drugs; there is no way to know.

    Wasn’t Elliot Rodgers a virgin?

    Yes. He had never even kissed a girl, despite the fact he was way better-looking than me (he looked like some kind of teen heartthrob) and had access to more money than me (he was a rich kid).

    Yes, older men, listen to BD.

    Yes. Listen to me, you excuse-making fuckers.

    I’m 26 (very petite, looks late-teens) and with someone who is 45.

    Yup. Millions of people are doing this right now, while many guys on this blog are saying its impossible, improbable, or too much work.

    Oh well. More for me then.

  13. Older guys out there, BD speaks the truth IF you take care of yourself and your finances.  I’m 39(turning 40 this year) and am able to pull very cute 20 somethings regularly.  They never bat an eye when they found out my real age and are usually impressed that I still look so young.  I am genetically blessed in that I have a baby face and most people assume I’m 30 tops which helps but I also keep in shape.  I’m in better shape now than I ever was in my 20’s.

    No excuses gentlemen-the world can be your oyster post 35 if you play it right.

    And yes I will also say that marriage can ruin a guy’s looks.  The married guys I know have gotten fatter and dumpier every passing year.  They completely stop working out and eating right, drink too much and stress way more than me.

  14. Bottomline: Sex for money is for lazy people. But they do have a point. They can afford to look like old shit and STILL get sex with young hotties. In the world of the rich and powerful its hard to draw a line. I am tempted to assume they might be more right than us.

    But are they happy? I’m 49 and super fit. Every year its getting harder and harder to get up and get to the gym. I’m always sore. I don’t recover as well as I used to. But I will never give up being fit no matter how hard it is to maintain because it just makes the rest of life so much more fun. I can still do anything a 20 yo can do, have heaps of energy but I’ve also got all the experience and wisdom of someone who’s been around the block. I have friends my age who are not even fat, but they are breaking down and becoming very limited in what they can do in their lives because of the physical conditioning. I’ve known guys in their 60’s who can’t even travel anymore because traveling involves to much walking and their knees or backs are shot.

    Funny thing is, even seeing hookers you will get a very difference level of service/experience if you are fat and haven’t looked after yourself compared to a guy who has.

  15. I’m always sore. I don’t recover as well as I used to. 

    In case you’re not doing it already, I’d suggest 20mg of zinc per day, and preferably some magnesium too. Many natural lifters manage to do it without constant soreness, and supplementation (along with some training adjustments) helps a lot. More protein is a good idea too, as age decreases your absorption ability.

  16. For clarity, I do not view all women as prostitutes and the meaning of prostitution for the purpose of the article means there is a contractual arrangement where one party agrees to primarily provide a sexual service (either explicitly or implicitly) and the other party agrees to provide financial payment for that service or financial payment in kind (which would include most of the relationships on “sugar daddy” sites). Where my commentary touches on relationships within society in general I do not extend the definition of prostitute to the women in those relationships.
    Firstly, I’d like to make clear that I believe prostitution should be completely legal (albeit with a legal framework in place to punish abuse and coercive practice). Government should have very limited rights to interfere in transactional relationships between citizens and certainly has no right to regulate what two (or more) consenting adults do in private.
    The only caveat which I place on the above is that the customer takes reasonable and proportionate steps to ensure that the interaction is legal prior to the engagement and any signs of abuse, coercion or human trafficking should be reported to law enforcement.
    As with many of the things posted on this blog, BD has shown a principled approach to the issue alongside a reasoned argument for the conclusions he has made. His argument was broadly that; if a man met two prescribed caveats regarding financial wealth and relationship abundance but still wants to pay for sex then he should go right ahead. As usually, BD set out his arguments in detail and they make a great deal of sense.
    One of the challenges I personally have with this idea is that it gives rise to arguments, such as the one postulated by CSR above, whereby if a person has willpower and discipline alongside experience with women then there is no harm in seeing a prostitute. This begs the question; why would a man who fulfils the two caveats laid down by BD need to see a prostitute? Or indeed, to reframe it into CSR’s language; why would a man who has discipline and willpower alongside experience with women need to see a prostitute?
    Reading through the comments on BD’s previous article on the subject there seem to be many answers to that question which have zero intellectual merit and BD has successfully pointed out flaws in many of them. There only seem to be three arguments which would hold water:

     The virgin argument (or Argument 8 above) seems like a sensible option for a man who perhaps has performance anxiety about the act or is a virgin at a “socially unacceptable” age.
    The age argument (or Argument 5 above) subject to the caveats that BD gave within the blog post. Realistically speaking, men over sixty might find it statistically more efficient to engage in relationships with girls in their twenties on a “pay for play” basis.
    Where an Alpha 2.0 with an extremely high sex drive who broadly falls into the “pleasure of sex” category is away from his usually base of operations for a short period it may be more conducive for him to pay for an escort.

    Outside of these three arguments, where a man has met the caveats BD has set out, is there any logical reason why he would choose to see a prostitute at all?

    This effectively brings me on to the next challenge I have with the discussion which was vocalised by Shiningtime when he said:

    “There is no right or wrong with this subject. Do whatever makes you happy…as long as it is legal…ish.”
    There are two challenges with that statement and it is initially easier to deal with the second, which is that prostitution is illegal in the USA. As BD has stated before, following the law is a prerequisite for an Alpha Male 2.0 because when you engage in illegal activity you may be caught and that would have a potentially grave impact on your happiness. Therefore, it is irrational to engage a prostitute in a country where it is illegal even if it “makes you happy” given that you are risking your long-term happiness for a short-term reward. Even if you disagree with the law your long-term freedom and happiness is threatened by breaking it.
    Adding this to the argument made above, where a man has met the caveats BD has set out, is there any logical reason why he would choose to see a prostitute at all especially when it may impact his long-term freedom and happiness by doing so?
    The primary challenge with the comment though is that, taken at face value, it is correct in the assertion that there is no “right or wrong” with the subject. Although I would be the last person to moralise about the concept of paying for sex it still might be worth applying some ethical considerations to the subject of prostitution within society (from the Alpha Male 2.0 perspective).
    “Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law.”
    That Kantian expression on the categorical imperative provides a fantastic way of assessing one’s actions. To borrow from André Compte-Sponville; “if you want to know if an act is virtuous or reprehensible…ask yourself what the world would be like if everyone behaved as you do?”
    Therefore, my argument on prostitution being “wrong” rests on the fact that it propagates the monetisation of sex with women and that has a negative societal effect which is cumulative albeit difficult to quantify. Whether it is legal or not, the fact that men are willing to exchange money for sex is a clear indicator of the pervasive paradigm among society at large that a man should transact sex from a woman. Thank goodness there are guys like BD to provide a countervailing viewpoint! He has also made some previous blog posts which might help to explain my position:
    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2015/12/14/the-power-of-beta-males/
    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2015/10/19/more-beta-males-equal-more-dominant-women-literally/
    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2016/01/21/prostitution/
    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2015/03/08/is-porn-good-or-bad/


    One of the major themes which is central to the first two articles is how the actions of beta males influences your life in ways you may not have considered. Beta males constantly spend large quantities of money on women and pedestalise them simply for being women and are therefore largely responsible for creating the paradigm in society mentioned above. When you are paying a prostitute or a sugar-baby you are tacitly affirming that same paradigm: “I’m going to pay so that hot girl will have sex with me.”
    In the third article BD makes a case for the potential of “sugar-daddy” sites becoming more mainstream:
    The second possible scenario, which is also likely, is pretty much the opposite. This is if sugar daddy game isn’t rendered illegal and instead goes mainstream. Normal girls will start seeing some of their girlfriends get hundreds or even thousands of dollars just by having the same sex they’d have anyway. Non-sugar baby girls will start to adopt this model, or mutated variations of it. So you’ll be a normal guy on a normal date with a normal girl from a normal dating site like Match.com or OKCupid, and when you pitch to have her come over to your place, she’ll say, “Sure! How about $300? That’s why my girlfriend gets.”
    The tyranny of the majority can act in indirect and subtle ways so when most men take a certain action (like monetising sex with women or putting women on a pedestal and validating them simply for being women), it has consequences for all men within society (e.g. within the article quoted above BD tells the story of a blonde 10 who expected him to pay her $1000 a week for the “privilege” of dating her). The reason I mentioned the Kantian maxim was this – if everyone acted to monetise sex with women would that be a positive thing? The fact is that the majority of men already do that… you don’t need to jump on the bandwagon too.
    [The reason that I include the fourth BD article is that pornography (alongside strip clubs), acts in a similar manner in that the primary motive of the industry is to pedestalise the female sexual form and then to monetise it (while also spreading some rather negative subliminal messaging about consensual and protected sex).]
    Nothing I have said alters the fact that I think pornography, strip clubs, sugar babies and escorts should all be absolutely 100% legal but, as a far brighter jurist than I pointed out; “ethics is knowing the difference between what you have the right to do and what is right to do.”
    The simple challenge is that, although I agree with BD in principle, I still fail to see an answer to the question: Where a man has met the caveats BD has set out, is there any logical reason (bar the three narrow ones mentioned above) why he would choose to see a prostitute at all especially when it may impact his long-term freedom and happiness by doing so and in doing so he is affirming a societal paradigm which has a cumulative negative effect on society and himself?

    “Obedience to a law which one prescribes to oneself is freedom.”
    – Rousseau

    N.B. My references to CSR and Shiningtime are not personal attacks but are merely used to illustrate a difference in opinion – I certainly mean no offence by them. Nor is it my intention to castigate any visitor to this website who chooses to engage the services of a prostitute – I merely seek to challenge the intellectual basis for the action.

     

  17. I don’t really see this “women age worse than men ” thing going on in real life. Actually, men are less likely to take care of themselves as they age. In any case, Im 40 and there are a handful of people I went to school with that I see pics of on Facebook and am like whoa… when did so and so get OLD looking? But most of us don’t look that bad at 40- men or women.

  18. Lovergirl said:
    “I don’t really see this “women age worse than men ” thing going on in real life. Actually, men are less likely to take care of themselves as they age. In any case, Im 40 and there are a handful of people I went to school with that I see pics of on Facebook and am like whoa… when did so and so get OLD looking? But most of us don’t look that bad at 40- men or women.”

    I live on in a big coastal city. The women are usually very fit, and many of them are attractive in their 40’s and beyond. As much as the idea of “The Wall” is thrown around, it certainly seems like women aged 40-50 are still in high demand. I had a fling awhile back with a 45er and she had the body of a teen athlete – not hyperbole. She was much more fit than many much younger women I’ve known recently.

    I myself just hit 40 and got more serious about fitness the last couple years. Already in decent shape, I decided to say “f*ck it” and hit the weights hard. Now I feel better than I did in my 20’s and seem to have the same level of success with women as I did back then. My married/divorced pals don’t seem to take care of themselves. Booze seems to be a big part of the diet. I lost my taste for alcohol and feel more optimistic than any other time in my adult life. This blog has a lot of great info.

    Now if I could just keep these knees from falling apart…hahahaha

    I just met a new plate who is one of the hottest I’ve ever had. Life is good.

    Still will hit the brothels again at some point, though. It is fun!

  19. I don’t really have a lot to say about men paying for sex. I just always wonder about how the women being paid actually FEEL about it. I guess that doesn’t matter to a lot of men but it would matter to me. A big part of sex, to me, is the expression of emotion and I have to wonder how that is expressed, or not expressed, through paid sex. It seems it would be so empty or actually would leave a person feeling bad afterwards. Maybe not. Maybe men don’t really care. I could never see myself paying for sex, even if that were an option for women, because it would kill my sex drive not to feel truly wanted and desired.

  20. Every man pays for sex.

    Busy well off men pay with money. Others pay with time, flakes, monogamy, marriage. and
    children.

    Query which of these ‘currencies’are most harmful to a man.

  21. Raise your hand if you know anyone who’s fucked a prostitute or sugar baby just once and then literally never did it again.

    *Raises hand*

    And I’ll talk about my experience as well. It was about a week after my dad died, and him dying made something snap and all of a sudden I was like “what do I want to experience before I die?” and made a list. Paying for sex was one of those things. That was the first, last and only time I ever paid for sex ever. I also had this rationalization:

    It’s okay to do it if you’re working on your dating skills at the same time.

    I was reading a lot of David D at the time, and after paying for sex I was like “I can’t wait to do this for free sometime!” Not “screw learning game, I can just pay for sex my whole life! Awesome!” I will admit I’m probably in the minority, but the reason I never paid for sex again was twofold: 1) I just measured it mathematically. I paid I think $300 for the ho. After, I was like “Well, that’s 10-20 different opportunities that I can get laid without a ho so this will be the last time I see a ho; it doesn’t fit my budget nor my cost-benefit analysis” and 2) This isn’t decisively legal, so I shouldn’t do it ever again. I don’t want to get arrested or anything.

    I also followed this rationalization:

    It’s okay to do it if you’re a virgin and want to get from A to B quickly.

    I was still a virgin after my dad died (well technically I wasn’t, use your imagination on that, assume what you want to assume). And he and others thought I was gay although I wasn’t. So I used paying for sex to prove to myself that I can indeed get from A to B quickly. I’m glad BD agrees with this and it was part of my argument (as well as the above rationalization), but unlike his view, IMO it only takes ONE visit to a ho/gigolo to clear that not, 2-4. But that is ONLY if you are learning how to improve your skills with the opposite sex concurrently. If you aren’t learning how to improve skills with the opposite sex, then you can’t pay for sex.

    I think BD misunderstood me when I presented my original counterargument but perhaps I also wasn’t as concise as I could and should have been. So here’s my final say.

    Paying for sex is only acceptable if:

    -you have the money to waste, are at least developing good skills with the opposite sex (can date and have sex with traditionally average/unattractive members of the opposite sex)
    -you want to prove to yourself that you can have sex with someone outside your race/outside your appearance “comfort zone” (if you really are that impatient, which is sad but whatevs)
    -you are a virgin and you want to prove to yourself that making a move won’t get you sniped by the FBI (yet) if you are a dude, or you want to prove to yourself that you won’t get raped if you are a chick. I really hate how society still sees sex as such a scary thing btw. Stupid bra burners and tradcons.

    Also, You can only see a ho/gigolo exactly ONCE in your life. Then you’re done, no matter who you are or how much money you make.

    So I suppose my stance is similar to BD’s only it is more strict in the amount of times you can see a ho/gigolo, but more lenient in the desire to see one.

    So thanks loosely to BD, I now have a more solid stance on paying for sex I suppose. I never mentioned that exactly once in your life thing, but I’m arguing it hard now. I apologize for not being decisive on this statement as I should have been in the first article.

  22. Guys like Elliot Rodgers can benefit greatly from seeing a hooker.

    Big ol’ nope to that. You spelled “team of therapists” or “significant loss” or “swift and hard kick in the metaphysical ass” wrong.

    I was almost the same as Rodger before my dad died. I didn’t want to kill anyone, but I truly believed the world was against me and that there was an ACTUAL conspiracy against me to not ever get any chick out on a date.

    And then I overheard my dad talking to my mom on the phone asking her if I was gay. That changed EVERYTHING. There was no way that I was going to let someone else decide my sexual preferences. Like I said, a swift and hard kick in the metaphysical ass. Within six months, I had went from zero experience with chicks to having short term relationships with four different chicks who were generally on “my level” in terms of appearance (no sex tho, because I was still scared to transition from kiss to foreplay/taking clothes off).

    Rodger was literally just given things and didn’t have to put any effort into getting anything. I had similar treatment, but there were plenty of times where I also had to earn things. Being a latch key kid since the age of 6 and having to cook my own meals, wash my own dishes (by hand, no dishwasher) and do laundry by 12 also helped quite a bit.

    If I grew up too fast, Rodger didn’t grow up fast enough. He didn’t have to do any of those things, and was probably extremely bored. I’ll contend that it was his boredom that enticed him to kill others. (not-so) Fun fact, when he did his videos before he performed his massacre, I attempted to reach out to him. And like a proper 2 year old, he lashed out on my and called me a “normalfag” whatever that means.

    Seeing a ho wouldn’t have helped Rodger at all.

  23. This will be my final word on this subject, unless (1) someone wants to talk more about this with me, or (2) someone chooses to advocate for prostitution on one of BD’s separate blog posts that has nothing to do with the subject, but the dude brought it up as a way of saying “fuck all this, just pay.”

    I’m going to articulate now the 5 reasons why no man should ever visit a prostitute under any circumstances, assuming the man in question is a sex-positive individual who is committed to the philosophy of sexual open mindedness, since prostitution is wholly incompatible with such a philosophy:

    1. Prostitution is illegal:

    In the United States (except within certain counties/jurisdictions in the state of Nevada), prostitution is a crime, both for the prostitute and for her “customer.” In many jurisdictions, it is a felony, which may result in literally years of serious prison time (especially for the prostitute who breaks this law countless times on a daily basis). Now, as a libertarian, I believe that prostitution should be completely legal and unregulated (just like all other private business should be), but it’s currently not.

    This is why I’m surprised that BD – who usually prides himself on not encouraging any criminal activity – is encouraging criminal behavior here (albeit in very limited circumstances, as per his three criteria, including being an older virgin). I don’t anticipate legal trouble for BD, but encouraging crimes (even for old virgins) is itself a crime and not protected speech (see the Supreme Court’s “bad tendency rule,” pertaining to its First Amendment cases). This should, of course, not be confused with thinking that something should be legalized or that the laws should be changed (which is protected speech).

    Obviously, this first argument doesn’t apply if you live in a country where prostitution is legal, or if you live within those specific jurisdictions in the state of Nevada which legally allow it. The remaining four anti-prostitution arguments, however, apply to everyone who is a sex-positive individual and desires to spread the philosophy of sexual liberation:

    2. Prostitution is female supremacy and sexist against men:

    Unless the woman is an asexual or just a very generous lesbian (in which case, this argument doesn’t apply), the idea that a woman is doing the man a generous favor by sleeping with him, which behooves him to compensate her for this act of sainthood financially, is an idea that is fundamentally incompatible with sex-positivism, female sexual liberation, or female heterosexuality (which is the source of all sexually enlightened societies). The idea that the woman hates it, and therefore, must be paid for acting as if she loves it, is an idea which is the source of a lot of sexism (against females) and resentment towards women.

    This is because the woman asking the man for money is inherently an act of smugness and phenomenal disrespect for the man, no different than a man hurting the feelings of a fat woman by demanding 300 dollars if she wants to go on a date with him. It renders the man an ugly, disgusting, and filthy second class citizen. As such, prostitution not only hurts men’s self esteem (as BD pointed out), but it also demonizes men as a whole by contributing to a culture which dictates that men are unfuckable, unlovable, and physically repulsive, which is why they must pay. Many men react to this with understandable resentment, which breeds sexism and hatred of women.

    FYI – Going to a prostitute would have increased Elliot Rodger’s resentment and misogyny, not decreased it (see above).

    This female supremacy and hatred of men which suggests that the woman’s time is more valuable than the man’s, not only relegates men to second class citizenship levels and hurts their self esteem, but also serve the matriarchal Disney goals as well, since once paying a single penny for a one night stand is legitimized, everything else becomes legitimized as well, including the idea that a man should financially support a woman for his entire life if he wants sex with her even once (traditional marriage). High class prostitutes (conservative housewives) hate the low class prostitutes because the low class ones are trying to cut the tradcon wives out of the market. But legitimizing that financial market in the first place (by giving a hooker even 20 dollars for a blowjob) allows that higher market of traditional conservatism, marriage, and chivalry to even exist.

    And it all begins with the notion that men need sex more than women, and therefore, should pay. Destroy this notion with the prostitute, and you create a domino affect which will make traditional marriage and social conservatism philosophically unsustainable. But if you only attack marriage, chivalry, and Disney, then only those things are being threatened, while the larger principle behind them (that begins with prostitution) – that men are second class citizens – remains. That’s why us sex-positive men and women must attack the beginning of this crap – cheap prostitution – if we ever hope to discredit the bigger fish in this evil prudish pool – gold digging, chivalry, Disney, marriage, etc…

    3. A woman lying there like a cold fish or faking enthusiasm is a sexual turn off:

    Most normal men recognize the woman’s orgasm as a source of their own. Unless the sex is good for both, it is good for neither. If a woman is just lying there and saying “hurry up,” the man doesn’t feel like a real man, and everything about sex that turns him on, that makes him feel virile, manly, and good is gone. Now, most prostitutes will fake it for you (especially if you promise them an extra tip). But being conscious of the fakeness completely ruins it. A normal woman faking orgasms is intolerable to me. A professional sexual actress is a trillion times worse.

    Fantasies are for the blue pill sheep. Those of us who have taken the red pill precisely want to be unplugged from the matrix of lies. We want truth. We want sincerity from the women we’re with. And nowhere is sincerity more important than in the bedroom. This is why casual sex – especially one night stands where the two don’t even know each other’s names – can be so satisfying. She doesn’t even want a relationship, or may even know your name, but keeps fucking you because the sex is that good for her. This is why sleeping with a woman despite her being in a relationship with, or married to, another man is so satisfying as well. The fact that she’s willing to cheat – especially if there’s nothing wrong with her relationship – flatters you and your ego even more.

    By contrast, prostitution is, by definition, an organized system of sexual lying. Arguably, it’s even worse than “wife sex,” because at least your monogamous wife may have some sexual feelings towards you (no matter how small), but to the whore, you’re just client #9 and you know that she is completely numb during the act. It’s disgusting and it makes a mockery of everything that good sex is supposed to be, and everything that sex-positive people stand for!

    4. Prostitution contributes to a culture of prostitution, chivalry, gold digging, and traditional conservatism: 

     

     

     

     

    Lots of sex-negative people who have openly declared themselves our enemies enjoy using our own words and opinions against us. When you get down into the specifics of the trashy and despicable world of professional sex, you discover just how traumatic and sex-destroying that world is. Everything that is done for pure enjoyment is diluted when it is made professional. This is the most true with sex. Take a super high sex drive woman who craves male dick daily and make her a porn actress. Force her to have sex even when she’s not in the mood, with bright lights in her face, a male misogynist rudely choreographing her entire performance, telling her when to moan, when to thrust harder, and ordering her to precisely ignore her natural sensations during the sex and instead “follow the script” and you will eventually transform this sexual free spirit into a sex-negative prude.

    Order her furthermore to do disgusting things, like gag on the man’s dick, take a man’s vomit on her face, and so forth, and you will create the equivalent of a rape victim who becomes disgusted just by the thought of even seeing a naked man ever again.

    The professional sex industry is a thing of pure evil. It’s only practical result is to take something genuine and beautiful and turn it into something fake and ugly, while pretending to do the opposite by hiding behind the sex-positive banner in an act of extreme deception. Conservative religion, conservative housewives, Disney women, gold diggers, prostitutes, provider hunters, porn actresses, and strippers are all contributing to a very sex-negative agenda. This agenda, as stated, takes everything beautiful about sex that we are here promoting and turns it into an artificial commodity, which makes the sellers as well as the buyers cynical assholes who have given up on the very idea of truth, genuineness, or beauty.

    This is why even mainstream industries doing something as little as using female sexiness to sell toothpaste makes me very queasy and uncomfortable. And don’t even get me started about Hooters.

    In turn, this empowers radical feminist lesbians to say that if female heterosexuality were real, the sex industry as well as traditional conservatism wouldn’t be possible. This is why radical feminists in the 1960s believed that once women start being legally allowed to earn their own money, every woman in the world will be a lesbian by the year 2000! Today, these lesbians believe that “psychological grooming by the patriarchy since birth, thanks to capitalism” is what keeps all women from embracing their inner dyke. And this idea that all heterosexual sex is rape is bolstered by the truly sickening stories that are coming out of the sex industry (child trafficking, coercion through forced drug addiction, etc…).

    The man-hating lesbians are asking how can female heterosexuality be real if so much coercion plagues the subject. They are asking how can genuine female sexuality even be known to verifiably exist under such conditions.

    Of course, our red pill community and sexually liberated (read: sex for sex) women and men are the answer to those feminist questions. But we have to be smart in how we engage our sex-hating enemies. We do NOT make ourselves look good, or our philosophy credible, if we are seen as advocating a sex-destroying industry which takes the genuineness out of precisely what we are trying to assert is indeed genuine!

    For all of the above reasons, this community (and all sex-positive people everywhere) is making a fatal blunder in supporting, or advocating for, this garbage. It’s genuine sex or it’s nothing, gentlemen! Any point of view that is substantially different from this one is a point of view that contributes, at least in some way, to the arsenal of our sex-hating enemies.     

     

  24. I was involved in a hooker forum for many years and saw some of the damage that can be done to guys who get into it without working on their women skills first. BD is very right about how dangerous it could be for some guys.

    There were a certain number of guys (mainly nerdy types working in I.T, Engineering, stereotypical accountants etc) who had good jobs and plenty of money but had never learnt to interact with women at all. Many of them were a bit socially awkward in general as well. Lots of them had classic Disney style social programming views about women and they would project these straight onto the hookers they were seeing.

    I am seriously not kidding, but some of these guys would literally become monogamous with their favorite hooker, fall in love with them and talk about them like she was a girlfriend. This could literally go on for years. It was mind blowing. If their girl ever left the industry they would go into 6 month depressions like a break up and have a hard time finding a new hooker to become their oneits.

    They would write thousands of words complaining about how the world was crap and girls only like bad boys and they could never find a real GF. Lots of the guys would try to get them to start learning game or at least read some Manosphere stuff. But they would just fight back with classic SP and go on about finding a girl that would love them for their true selves instead of having to be fake to try and win a girl over. It was all very entertaining but VERY sad to watch.

    They were some of the most miserable sad people I have ever had any interaction with.

  25. Okay, so WordPress just censored the entirety of my fourth argument. My fourth argument is stated above, followed by a giant blank space, and then the entirety of my fifth argument is presented, which is:

    5. Prostitution gives our sex-negative enemies ammunition.

    But my entire fourth argument was censored, except for it’s title, so I will try again here in a summarized form:

    4. Prostitution contributes to a culture of prostitution, chivalry, gold digging, and traditional conservatism: 

    As someone above stated, the cultural normalization of prostitution turns ordinary women into spoiled little cunts (although he phrased it in a more gentlemanly way).  Picture a normal woman you’re on a date with and her suddenly saying: “So my sister is a prostitute and she makes, like, 3,000 dollars a week. Now, I’m flexible, unlike my sister who is totally spoiled, I mean, OMG. But how much would you give me if I’d fuck you in the next hour? How about 50 bucks?”

    Glamorization of, and cultural desensitization to, this trash will result in a world where female heterosexuality isn’t even perceived as existing. This is the end game of traditional conservatism, traditional house wives, gold digging, etc… We can forget about gender equality, sex for sex, and the very essence of sexual liberation if we normalize the “woman is doing us a favor” intellectually bankrupt filth.

  26. Didn’t know you could go to jail for seeing a prostitute in the U.S Why would the cops waste their time with that ,when there is far worse crimes bringing committed Strange world we live in !!!

  27. Hilarious that his name is jack “outside” the box, when he’s obviously an extraordinarily rigid “in the box” thinker.

     

    What about this situation? I went to the Philippines recently, and met with a girl from OKC. She was a perfect 10 in my book, in fact, the first personal perfect 10 I have ever actually made it with. Surprising too, since I’d say I am not even slightly attracted to 99.5% of Philippine women. Sadly, I can’t say as much for the sex, as she pretty much screamed in terror any time my dick started moving towards her mouth.

    Long story short, after it was over, she out of the blue asked me for $30(USD) to help her pay her rent. I was like ummm noooo, I’ve never agreed to pay for sex before, I’m certainly not going to do it when we didn’t even talk about it! Next day when I messaged her, she says it’s impossible to meet a guy who doesn’t even pay for anything except her taxi ride and ice cream, lol.

    Well, honestly, I felt a little guilty about not paying her. She was really young and you see the way people are living over there, and $30 is practically nothing. On the other hand, paying for sex for the first time, and it was not even good sex? I dunno.

     

     

  28. Being in the United States I don’t currently pay for sex because it’s illegal, there’s some health risks, and mostly because it’s way too expensive. I’m not against prostitution (or anything in the adult sex industry), or anyone who pays money for prostitution (or anything in the adult sex industry). I don’t need to pay for sex, but if it was legal and cost maybe only around $50 or less then I would consider it more often, however that’s not the case and probably never will be in my lifetime. Capitalists in Capitalism charge money in exchange for a Service or Product, but in the U.S. with sex it’s not Free Market because prostitution is illegal therefore raising the prices and also marriage laws makes it like a casino where most guys are going to lose. I’m not judgmental, I’m not moralistic, I’m not authoritarian, and I don’t try to control the sex lives of other people or the overall lives of other people. My own view is it’s “beta” to be judgmental of what others do sexually such as, even if I don’t pay for it and I’m with a girl in Private and we’re talking about this subject and I say I’m not judgmental so I think it’s okay if people pay for sex if they want to (and that shows that I’m “alpha” because I have a IDGAF attitude to what other people do sexually so I’m not like those other judgmental insecure beta guys with M/Whore Complex, therefore she doesn’t have ASD with me because with anything sexual IDGAF and we keep it discreet between us).

    A while ago another PUA type blog leaned toward not going to prostitutes very often (they thought it was okay for some guys once in a while), but overall this blogger was mostly not in favor of most guys going to prostitutes. The irony is that out of hundreds of free blogs that I’ve seen over the years that PUA blog is only the second blog that I’ve ever seen that charges money to read their “free blog” (it was ironic that here this blogger is telling guys not to pay prostitutes money for sex, while he’s making guys pay money to read his blog like it’s BLOGstitution, so he’s a BLOGstitute). Blogs should be free of charge. Even ebooks should be free of charge. Many authors give away their ebooks for free of charge, so all ebooks should be free of charge. Someday I’m going to write ebooks and I’m not going to be an EBOOKSstitute, so I’m going to give the ebooks away to others for free. Many PUA’s charge guys A LOT of money for Coaching and Bootcamps, so there shouldn’t be BOOTCAMPstitution, it’s just talking and guys shouldn’t take money from other guys for just talking to them. Food should be free, but almost everyone has to pay money for food and every week they engage in FOODstitution and every day they eat food that they thought it was okay to pay for.

  29. I really don’t understand or agree with most of your points JOTB.

    1. Prostitution is illegal:

    Even you said. There are lots of places it isn’t.

    2. Prostitution is female supremacy and sexist against men:

    I have no idea how this has anything to do with me and my happiness. Prostitution as they say is the oldest profession in the world. Its always been here and always will be. Most of what you mention here already exists for lots of reasons and probably will continue regardless of prostitution. What I do personally will have zero impact on it or anything else you mention in this point.

    3. A woman lying there like a cold fish or faking enthusiasm is a sexual turn off:

    Given your strong feelings against it I doubt you’ve had much experience with this type of sex. This whole section sounds to me similar to a 16 yo virgin explaining the Disney version of women, marriage and monogamy etc without having the first bit of real world experience of how to works. The idea that all paid sex is “cold fish, hurry up I’ve got another client” style is just not even close to reality. Sure some of that exists. But there is just so many other variations it would take forever to go through them all. That is a typical but classic uneducated stereotype.

    I don’t know how you enjoy sex but none of this comes even close to my experience with paid sex. I think you are making a LOT of assumptions based on your prejudiced view of it. You seem to be saying you can’t enjoy sex with a hot women unless she is thinking or feeling a certain way about the sex. That makes zero sense to me.

    You also seem to to make the assumption that because a women is getting paid for the sex she can’t enjoy it. Sounds pretty sex-negative to me.

    I’ve had plenty of paid sex that was better than a lot of my ONS’s.

    4. Prostitution contributes to a culture of prostitution, chivalry, gold digging, and traditional conservatism: 

    Same as point number two. This stuff exists regardless and has nothing to do with my personal choices.

    5. Prostitution gives our sex-negative enemies ammunition.

    Similar to point 2 and 4. If its not going to hurt my long term happiness (eg BD’s conditions etc) and I enjoy it for what it is. Who cares?

    The whole tone of you post sounds more like a religious fanatic who has a very narrow idea of how sex is “supposed” to work and very strong judgements about peoples motivations  in this scenario, rather than someone who is sex-positive.

  30. Going to a prostitute would have increased Elliot Rodger’s resentment and misogyny, not decreased it (see above).

    I agree with this, and tbh it hurts to agree. Because to someone who was committed to just getting things without earning them like Rodger, if he went to a ho it only would have cemented his view that there was a conspiracy against him. As I mentioned earlier, seeing a prostitute won’t help any if the person seeing them isn’t also committed to improving themselves with the opposite sex. When I saw my prostitute I was already able to go on dates with average looking chicks. I just wanted to be in an environment where I could make moves without being scared of getting a rape charge (thanks a lot, bra burners!). Getting a ho accomplished this.

    I actually compare it to most PUAism out there today (specifically RSD and other organizations that charge thousands of dollars for their customers to hang out with them for a weekend). They go into these “bootcamps” without any resolve to make themselves better, and because of that they don’t GET better, and all of a sudden PUAism is a scam. News flash EVERYTHING: school, BD’s books, PUAism, whatever is a scam if there is no effort from you as well. No one seems to know this. I don’t think anyone ever did.

  31. @Marty:

    I really don’t understand or agree with most of your points JOTB.

    You don’t have to agree, but saying that you don’t understand boggles my mind. I couldn’t possibly have made my arguments clearer or more specific.

    1. Prostitution is illegal:

    Even you said. There are lots of places it isn’t.

    Every time I post here, I’m speaking as an American to (at least in my mind) an exclusively American readership, unless otherwise explicitly specified. I don’t adopt the mindset of a foreigner unless there’s some non-American on this blog that I’m specifically addressing.

    2. Prostitution is female supremacy and sexist against men:

    I have no idea how this has anything to do with me and my happiness.

    Seriously? Being treated like a second class citizen for whom sex is a favor doesn’t insult you? Well, to each his own, I guess.

    Prostitution as they say is the oldest profession in the world.

    Yes. It was originally adopted by lesbians who didn’t want to marry a man for food. Having one night stands with strange men was actually easier for lesbians to stomach than having to actually marry one man and deal with his tyranny for life just to avoid starvation. What’s your point?

    Its always been here and always will be.

    How do you know what “will be?” Did you know the elites want to get rid of cash? How will prostitution work in a cashless society where all of your transactions are computerized and spied on by law enforcement agencies? How will drug dealing, or any other cash-related crime, work in an age where we’re all chipped and tracked?

    Most of what you mention here already exists for lots of reasons and probably will continue regardless of prostitution.

    But prostitution is the most basic and elementary manifestation of the beta male/gold digger phenomenon. I suggest that red pill men should be against it because we’re not betas.

    What I do personally will have zero impact on it or anything else you mention in this point.

    Incorrect. I may be a libertarian in the legal sense, but, culturally speaking, you don’t live on a deserted island. If no one wanted to buy drugs, there would be no drug dealing. If millions of beta and omega males wouldn’t put the pussy on a pedestal and shower women with gifts and money just for having a vagina, prostitution either wouldn’t exist, or wouldn’t be even half the lucrative profession that it is today. Your individual actions may not impact anything alone, which is why I’m talking to lots of men at once, not just you. Taking the pussy off the pedestal benefits all of us, whereas legitimizing sex for money creates a culture of female entitlement that makes the game at least a little bit harder even for the true alphas. I’m simply fighting back against that in my own small way. You may not agree, but you have to understand and concede that it’s a reasonable position for me to take based on rational self-interest.

    3. A woman lying there like a cold fish or faking enthusiasm is a sexual turn off:

    Given your strong feelings against it I doubt you’ve had much experience with this type of sex.

    I have had zero experience with prostitutes. Otherwise, I think I’d be a pretty big hypocrite.

    The idea that all paid sex is “cold fish, hurry up I’ve got another client” style is just not even close to reality.

    I know. That’s why I conceded that many prostitutes will fake it for you and even scream their heads off in bed if the price is right. I addressed that. Read it again.

    I don’t know how you enjoy sex

    Yes you do. I told you here a million times. Read it again. The woman must be sincere and enthusiastic. She must be responsive and having the time of her life. Otherwise, it feels empty.

    You seem to be saying you can’t enjoy sex with a hot women unless she is thinking or feeling a certain way about the sex.

    Correct. Most men that I’ve talked to have backed me up on this. If she isn’t horny than I can’t be horny. Otherwise, you have no objections to just allowing a woman to lay there like a cold fish while you pound her. If you do have an objection to that, then you too can’t enjoy sex unless the woman feels a certain way about it. Otherwise, she’s not a human being, but simply a substitute for your hand. My enjoyment of sex is predicated on the woman’s humanity and my reassurance that she isn’t a robot or a doll.

    That makes zero sense to me.

    Then I don’t know what to tell you. Do you have any sociopathic tendencies by any chance?

    You also seem to to make the assumption that because a women is getting paid for the sex she can’t enjoy it.

    Correct. If she were enjoying it, she wouldn’t need to get paid because the sex would be its own reward. Cash payment is only justified if she is a generous lesbian, an asexual, or someone with a super low sex drive.

    Sounds pretty sex-negative to me.

    How is that sex-negative? When you pile non-sexual or gender neutral motivations for sex on top of the sexual and gender based ones, those sexual and gender based motivations tend to get diluted. Now that is precisely a very sex-negative result. That’s why being against professional sex is precisely the sex-positive view – it keeps sex purely at the level of mutual pleasure and cancels out all the extra-sexual diluting agents. How can you not get this?

    I’ve had plenty of paid sex that was better than a lot of my ONS’s.

    Good for you. If you don’t care whether the woman is into it and using her as a hand substitute gets you off, more power to you, but I will never understand that. Actually, even masturbation is more understandable to me, since, during masturbation, men tend to think about an enthusiastic and horny girl who’s genuinely into them.

    4. Prostitution contributes to a culture of prostitution, chivalry, gold digging, and traditional conservatism:

    Same as point number two. This stuff exists regardless and has nothing to do with my personal choices.

    See my point about not living on a deserted island. The more a culture of sex for money is normalized and mainstreamed, the more even high sex drive women will feel stupid for not charging men, despite everyone else (including their female family members) doing so. Women will feel ashamed of their high sex drives, as the culture tells them to not “give” it away for free. This appeals to otherwise good women’s sense of narcissism and results in extra trouble for all of us, even eventually you. But you seem too focused on the small picture to grasp what I am trying to convey.

    5. Prostitution gives our sex-negative enemies ammunition.
    Similar to point 2 and 4. If its not going to hurt my long term happiness (eg BD’s conditions etc) and I enjoy it for what it is. Who cares?

    Because, in the long run, it is going to hurt your long term happiness, as it might change the culture dramatically. It won’t hurt your short term happiness, but medium term maybe, and definitely long term, unless you don’t care about continuing to have sex with women for free in the long term without hassle from self-righteous bitches.

    The whole tone of you post sounds more like a religious fanatic who has a very narrow idea of how sex is “supposed” to work

    As long as the sex is sincere and mutually motivated by horniness on both sides, I support it. That’s a pretty wide range of sexual acceptability, not narrow at all. I’m just against actresses who fake it or who frame the sex as a generous favor for the man, because that’s insulting.

    and very strong judgements about peoples motivations  in this scenario,

    Correct.

    rather than someone who is sex-positive.

    I can’t believe you don’t see the paradox here. You can’t be tolerant towards intolerance. And you can’t be sex-positive about sex-negative lifestyles in the name of sex-positivism. If you give room to the “women’s vaginas are made of gold and they are doing men a favor by fucking them” philosophy in the name of sex-positivism than you have just signed the death warrant of the sex-positive philosophy, because those sex-negative people that you allow in, in the name of sex-positivism, will not return the favor and will eventually exclude you from your own club because, in their mind, any woman who isn’t charging money for sex is a low self esteem “slut.”

    In order to maintain the integrity of sexual open mindedness, we cannot be tolerant of sexual closed-mindedness in the name of sexual open mindedness, lest we give the sexually closed-minded an advantage. That’s like saying being against monogamy, marriage, or Disney is very sex-negative. No. No, it’s not. It’s the opposite.

    You remind me of so called “open minded people” who want to bring in more Muslims into the country who hate open mindedness, because we’re so open minded, even towards closed-minded third world bigots.

    Your paradoxical thinking will do great damage to sexual liberation.

     

  32. @jack:

    Hilarious that his name is jack “outside” the box, when he’s obviously an extraordinarily rigid “in the box” thinker.

    Any concrete criticisms, per chance?

    Next day when I messaged her, she says it’s impossible to meet a guy who doesn’t even pay for anything except her taxi ride and ice cream, lol.

    That’s what you get for leaving the West. Non-western countries are notorious for their tradcon K-type sexual morality, which is really a sexual matriarchy in which women hold all the cards.

    Well, honestly, I felt a little guilty about not paying her.

    Why? You think she did you a favor by fucking you? Was she a generous lesbian who therefore deserved financial compensation for a generous act?

    She was really young and you see the way people are living over there, and $30 is practically nothing.

    Who gives a fuck about the living conditions of third world shitholes? That still doesn’t justify treating their women like generous dykes!

     

  33. @HangupHangups:

    Capitalists in Capitalism charge money in exchange for a Service or Product, but in the U.S. with sex it’s not Free Market because prostitution is illegal therefore raising the prices and also marriage laws makes it like a casino where most guys are going to lose.

    Correct. That’s why tradcons are against prostitution. It allows them to inflate the price of sex for betas if their only other option is traditional monogamy or marriage. Prostitution lowers the price (which makes housewives fume in rage), but it’s still based on the “sex for money” paradigm, which is why I refer to traditional monogamy as “high class prostitution.” The high class ones hate the low class ones, whereas I hate them both because I reject the very paradigm, and so should all red pill men who are serious about sex-positivism and living a “sex for sex” lifestyle.

    My own view is it’s “beta” to be judgmental of what others do sexually

    Not if what others do sexually eventually hurts you by normalizing female supremacy. That’s why I love this community – it teaches men to be alphas and how to not pay for sex, thus ultimately making the world a better place for me by contributing to a “sex for sex only” culture! That’s what I’m interested in. Culture wars aren’t beta, unless the culture in question specifically doesn’t affect you and you’re just moralizing. But if you’re against a specific norm due to rational self interest, it’s not beta at all.

    such as, even if I don’t pay for it and I’m with a girl in Private and we’re talking about this subject and I say I’m not judgmental so I think it’s okay if people pay for sex if they want to (and that shows that I’m “alpha” because I have a IDGAF attitude to what other people do sexually so I’m not like those other judgmental insecure beta guys with M/Whore Complex, therefore she doesn’t have ASD with me because with anything sexual IDGAF and we keep it discreet between us).

    Um….dude, being against professional sex has nothing to do with the M/W complex. Why would a woman have ASD about having sex with you if you told her that you’re against prostitution, unless she herself was planning to charge you? I’m against prostitution for reasons that have nothing to do with a lack of discretion when it comes to sleeping with sexually liberated women.

    A while ago another PUA type blog leaned toward not going to prostitutes very often (they thought it was okay for some guys once in a while), but overall this blogger was mostly not in favor of most guys going to prostitutes. The irony is that out of hundreds of free blogs that I’ve seen over the years that PUA blog is only the second blog that I’ve ever seen that charges money to read their “free blog” (it was ironic that here this blogger is telling guys not to pay prostitutes money for sex, while he’s making guys pay money to read his blog like it’s BLOGstitution, so he’s a BLOGstitute).

    I fail to see the irony. How is charging for a blog bad? Are you suggesting that if sex should be free, then you should believe that everything in the world should be free because otherwise you’re a hypocrite? That makes no sense.

    Blogs should be free of charge.

    How did you come to that conclusion?

    Even ebooks should be free of charge.

    How the fuck did you come to that conclusion?

    Many authors give away their ebooks for free of charge,

    So what?

    so all ebooks should be free of charge.

    That does not logically follow.

    Someday I’m going to write ebooks and I’m not going to be an EBOOKSstitute, so I’m going to give the ebooks away to others for free.

    Cool.

    Many PUA’s charge guys A LOT of money for Coaching and Bootcamps, so there shouldn’t be BOOTCAMPstitution,

    Why not?

    it’s just talking and guys shouldn’t take money from other guys for just talking to them.

    Why not? Especially if they’re giving valuable advice.

    Food should be free,

    Now you’ve completely lost your mind.

    but almost everyone has to pay money for food and every week they engage in FOODstitution and every day they eat food that they thought it was okay to pay for.

    That’s because “foodstitution” is rational. Prostitution is harmful to a sex-positive society. You’re mixing apples and cake here dude. Food is a product. A woman is not.

  34. @Niteride Mick:

    Didn’t know you could go to jail for seeing a prostitute in the U.S

    Really? You didn’t know that? Prostitution has never been legal in America. What country are you from?

    Why would the cops waste their time with that ,when there is far worse crimes bringing committed

    Because cops aren’t allowed to pick and choose which laws they enforce and which they don’t.

    Strange world we live in !!!

    Check this out:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfMXuHlnbZg

     

  35. @JOTB

    As always your views on this topic are driven mostly by emotion, and you’re not looking at it rationally, nor will you, you approach the topic like a religious person defending their religion. So I don’t know why I would bother responding, but I will.

    prostitution is wholly incompatible with such a philosophy

    No, it isn’t. Here’s why…

    1. Prostitution is illegal

    In many places it isn’t, even including some places in the US. For places that it IS illegal, you can pay escorts (or SB’s) for their TIME and what happens between two consenting adults during that time is their own business. There is nothing illegal about that at all provided it’s not a ‘pay for sex’ interaction. So this point is irrelevant, as you can pay for sex without technically paying for sex and breaking any laws. No problem at all.

    2. Prostitution is female supremacy and sexist against men … 

    the idea that a woman is doing the man a generous favor by sleeping with him, which behooves him to compensate her for this act of sainthood financially

    No, there are two ways guys approach paying for sex, the BETA way which is as you’ve stated where he feels she’s doing him a favour and needs to be compensated and he thinks it’s the only way he can get laid etc. Then there’s the ALPHA way, where you’re paying for convenience, and is no different to paying for a pizza even though you can make one yourself.

    The fact that she’s getting paid for something she often enjoys doing for free (with the right guy) is irrelevant, obviously it would be better to get it for free, and if it were as simple as cold calling a girl you’ve never met and asking her to come straight over for sex (which is how convenient it is with a prostitute) then there’d be no value add for paying for it, but that’s not the case, getting laid takes TIME, you’re paying to save you that time, and puts her no more in a position of supremacy than the guy you pay to make your pizza, even though he might really enjoy making pizzas.

    3. A woman lying there like a cold fish or faking enthusiasm is a sexual turn off

    I agree, however some men perhaps don’t care and are only concerned with their enjoyment, good for them. However the experience varies based on the prostitute. Do you really find it so hard to believe that a prostitute would be sexually attracted to a client? Especially if he’s the sort of guy that can get laid anyway and is just going there for the convenience of it. You realize there are plenty of guys that end up fucking them for free after a few visits etc. or where it turns into a relationship? It’s actually not as uncommon as you might think.

    Paying for sex is a spectrum, at one end you have the girl that hates doing it, is not attracted to any of her clients and if she ever seems excited it’s just a fake act, on the other end there are girls that love it (some clients more than others) and even end up dating clients for free etc. it’s not as black and white as you think, and shows that you have no experience in the matter.

    4. Prostitution contributes to a culture of prostitution, chivalry, gold digging, and traditional conservatism

    No, it’s the dating market conditions for men that contributes to this, prostitution (and the extent of it) as well as the other things you’ve listed is just a result of it. Allow me to explain…

    I don’t set the price of a commodity I want, it’s decided by the free market. If EVERY guy started paying for sex, you’d have to too, or go without. Due to the supply and demand for sex men have to either pay for it with their time or money, sometimes both. Just depends on the market, some places it takes less time/money (eg. Colombia), other places it takes more (eg. Toronto). This is due to local market supply being offered by the women (either paid or ‘unpaid’ through dating etc.) and demand by the men, as well as male/female ratio’s etc.

    If there are 5x as many young attractive women as men and they were all willing to have sex very quickly, then it would take very little time to get laid. However the more unfavourable the conditions are for the men, the more time it takes. So perhaps a more accurate statement is ‘Local dating market conditions when highly unfavourable to men contribute to a culture of prostitution, chivalry, gold digging and traditional conservatism (at least where it’s concerned with male/female relations)’

    5. Prostitution gives our sex-negative enemies ammunition.

    Huge rant in your post, that doesn’t really get to the point very well on this point. Ultimately though I think you’re saying that the seediness/evil side of prostitution/porn is ammunition against sex positivity in general.

    The issue with that is it’s not prostitution that’s the problem anymore than outsourcing production to companies in third world countries gives anti-outsourcing advocates ammunition when one of those companies is using child labor or has atrocious working conditions etc.

    If society was more open and accepting of prostitution (particularly people like yourself), then those issues in the sex industry wouldn’t exist, just like child labor and sweat shop conditions no longer exist (for the most part) in the first world, because it would be just another legitimate industry with laws etc. that properly govern it and the working conditions allowed within it.

  36. Yes. It was originally adopted by lesbians who didn’t want to marry a man for food.

    Frankly Jack, you’re displaying the same misguided “it’s not nature, it’s culture” attitude that the blank slate-ist feminazis have. What you said there is just another “secular creationist” myth about how human nature works.

    Are you going to say that prostitution among penguins is penguin female supremacy ? Or orangutan female supremacy ? Is a male bird that makes a nest with shiny stolen jewelry to attract the females being a bird female supremacist ? Seduction in all animals stems from the evolutionary rationale “I have such good genes that over and above taking care of my survival, I can waste time and energy collecting shiny stones, or making the biggest, most ridiculous looking nest, or giving away food, etc”.
    A hot chick already has all the DHV she needs; an average looking man will create high value whether by being alpha or by paying. You agonize over some fundamental difference between spending effort into flirtation and spending effort into saving money for payment, but biology doesn’t care about the distinction.
    You’re also obsessing over this “get out of the matrix” idea, and what you don’t realize is that many sugar babies truly love their less attractive and non-alpha sugar daddies. And you want to know why ? because money giving is not intellectualized as you assume, it acts on the instinct. It’s not “I’m sleeping with him because he gives me money”, it’s “when he gives me money, somehow I feel more comfortable about sleeping with him”. Instinct, not intellect. Biology, not culture.

    I don’t know if I’m against your opinion itself on prostitution (maybe it is a very bad idea, maybe it is super-adamaging, maybe it does doom you to betaness), but some of your arguments are way off in that, by reproducing the same mindset of the ideologies you hate, they show that your way doesn’t solve the core problem: denial of a degree of determinism in how animals behave, especially when reproduction is concerned.

    Every time feminists want to deny a biological determinism, they invent a creation myth. They take an example of something anecdotal that has indeed occurred but that hardly represents the general cause of a phenomenon, and they say “see, right there, that’s why X is happening”; case in point, the idea that men pay for sex to “exert power over women”.
    Adopting the mindset of the enemy can work when you’re debating them because you force them to confront the incoherence of their way of thinking, but adopting it across the board means there’s no reason to take you more seriously than them: faulty thinking all the way, with the divergence in conclusions being almost a contingency.

    Barring radical (and probably technology-driven) changes in the human condition, prostitution isn’t going away anytime soon. And by the way, IMO every single human on the planet who is currently doing a job he doesn’t love much (not even one he hates) is engaging in cerebral prostitution: he is not truly doing his passion, he is putting his brain for hire to make money (“I don’t particularly enjoy spreading my neurons for you, but you’re paying me”). One more example of refusing to engage the radfems with their own mindset and on the contrary, doing away with their silly mind-body divide (summarized by this: reluctantly admitting that bodily differences are evolutionary, but psychological differences hell no).

  37. I don’t know if it’s located in any of your books, but it would be helpful for those of us who have a girlfriend we love and want to stay with.

    My girlfriend is trying to get me laid on the side.   I’m 6’0, in pretty good physical shape, generally above average smart, but I can’t make any inroads at all.

    The few people we do know, primarily work with us, or are hung up on their own unicorns.  Or, couples want her to have sex with the other man, and there simply has not been a good match that she has wanted.

    BD’s dating method seems fairly solid, but it’s just a hard thing to do currently running a super small business on my time and current income level.   And, I’m not looking for girlfriends on the side.  I would just like a lady or two I could connect with outside of my relationship once in a while.

    I’ve put in the work on messages.   I just don’t know the correct frame for my current situation.  I just want a fuck buddy!   lol.   However, most messages go ignored or in the rare times someone shows interest, she is several states away.

    I’m one of those guys that has been thinking lately I’m ugly, for every single reason that BD listed above.  All of them.   I was even been whiny (on wine no less) and telling my girlfriend, that she gets 100 compliments a day and I haven’t had a compliment on my appearance outside a woman from her in 5 years we have been dating.

    I’m starting to see this is quite normal, or at least I hope.

    And, this isn’t from lack of putting myself out there.   I just rarely get a signal in return.   Barely a hint in most cases.

    Thus, this has led to “thinking” about paying for it, but this article is good because it simply would have resulted in a further damaged frame.  And further, a massive part of sex for me, is that the other woman has to want it!   🙂

  38. A woman lying there like a cold fish or faking enthusiasm is a sexual turn off

    I’m with wolf on this point. I haven’t personally paid for sex(as I said last time) but I have known sex workers. My experience with them matches what wolf is saying…they have some regular clients they actually care about, enjoy the sex with, and want to continue seeing even without money involved, and some clients they don’t really like. And just because they could get paid for sex by some dude doesn’t mean they ask everyone to pay. Everyone finding them through their ‘escort page’ sure, but if you met them somewhere else and they liked you, well, they don’t usually start demanding cash for sex in every situation just because they can get it in one.

    SBs are a little different; you can fairly easily fuck them 1-3 times without paying, but if you want to see them beyond that you usually have to give them something.

  39. BD,

    Can I ask your opinion on service members who are deployed, such as in the Navy or whatever, and pull into Singapore or something and decide to indulge?

    Myself, I have. And only once. But I feel like my motivation for it was more just for the life experience, even though we had been out to sea for months.

  40. I can still do anything a 20 yo can do, have heaps of energy but I’ve also got all the experience and wisdom of someone who’s been around the block. I have friends my age who are not even fat, but they are breaking down and becoming very limited in what they can do in their lives because of the physical conditioning. I’ve known guys in their 60’s who can’t even travel anymore because traveling involves to much walking and their knees or backs are shot.

    Exactly. As I always say:

    1. How well or how badly you age is 100% up to you.

    2. Being happy and healthy as a young man and then being a physically unfit depressed beta as an old man is a FUCKING FAIL and is YOUR FAULT.

    Funny thing is, even seeing hookers you will get a very difference level of service/experience if you are fat and haven’t looked after yourself compared to a guy who has.

    That’s a very good point and I hadn’t considered that. Very true.

    That was the first, last and only time I ever paid for sex ever.

    and

    I was still a virgin after my dad died

    Yeah. You were a virgin. That’s the exception to the rule, as I clearly stated in the article.

    Paying for sex is only acceptable if:

    -you want to prove to yourself that you can have sex with someone outside your race/outside your appearance “comfort zone” (if you really are that impatient, which is sad but whatevs)

    No. Re-read the article.

    I was involved in a hooker forum for many years and saw some of the damage that can be done to guys who get into it without working on their women skills first. BD is very right about how dangerous it could be for some guys.

    There were a certain number of guys (mainly nerdy types working in I.T, Engineering, stereotypical accountants etc) who had good jobs and plenty of money but had never learnt to interact with women at all. Many of them were a bit socially awkward in general as well. Lots of them had classic Disney style social programming views about women and they would project these straight onto the hookers they were seeing.

    I am seriously not kidding, but some of these guys would literally become monogamous with their favorite hooker, fall in love with them and talk about them like she was a girlfriend. This could literally go on for years.

    Yup; I’ve seen the exact same thing.

    Fucking hookers when you don’t know how to get laid for free is extremely dangerous. I’ve even seen these men get scammed out of thousands of dollars by these women (getting oneitis for a hooker; Jesus).

    Can I ask your opinion on service members who are deployed, such as in the Navy or whatever, and pull into Singapore or something and decide to indulge?

    Paying for hookers if you haven’t met the two criteria is bad for you, period. Since most guys in the military haven’t met these two criteria, fucking hookers is bad for them.

    However, not having any sex for a year or more is also bad.

    So, when you’re deployed for 15 months or whatever, and have zero or limited access to women, then paying for sex is the slightly less-bad of two very bad things. It will still harm you though; don’t think it won’t just because “you’re deployed so it’s okay.”

    (Ideally, you would game women during your shore leave or weekends off and have sex for free, but I realize that’s usually not an option when you’re deployed. Being deployed in the military is a very restricted, complicated scenario, and often there aren’t any good answers.)

  41. Also there’s a similar product for the Silicon Valley hi-tech high-money low-SMV crowd not willing to go all-out for the full Risky Business: what is called the “touch therapist.”  Who gets these guys acclimated to bodily touch of all sorts, skin to skin, whatever.  Happy endings are not mentioned (in the normal press write-ups) but I would expect one would not have to dig too deeply further into the wallet to obtain one.

    A year or two ago there was a big write-up on a “touch therapist” in Japan who performs a similar service for grass-eater men; she says she’ll do it naked but no fuckee fuckee.

    I can’t laugh too hard at the men who consider this, however ill-advised (which it is). Some years back in the depths of my worst omega-tude I could only console myself with the possibility of saving up enough money someday to visit the Chicken Ranch, just once, so I could dip my wick at least once while on God’s Green Earth.  [sob whimper]

    Took awhile but things finally got a lot better so I never ended up as one of the featured stars of the movie “The Bridge.”

  42. @ JOTB, how old are you? I’d guess somewhere in your thirties still. Because this might explain why this concept/topic is so alien to you. Have you thought of what you will do when you get into your fifties and sixties, and it becomes increasingly harder to have sex for “free”? Also, the fact that you are in a swingers environment, might color your perception/bias. This situation of yours lifts you into privileged status, given you have a large pool of current and potential prospects that most men just don’t have access to (very few men are “hip” to that scene even if they are non-monogamous).

    I think similarly to you, and have always tried to imagine a world where men refused to pay for sex, either through marriage, dating, or prostitution. Unfortunately, that is pure fantasy and not how the world works. One can only do his part in trying to get laid with the least amount of effort, money and time.

     

  43. Hey Jack not so smart outside the box Hmm buys a plane ticket Hails a cab to the airport ,buys some dutyfree grog ,books his hotel room ,lets see maybe 2stars not to flash Jacks on a budget He wants to bang as many pros as he can for free Poor Jack $30.00 dollors will break the bank Should stayed home and used your hand!!!!

  44. Busy well off men pay with money. Others pay with time, flakes, monogamy, marriage.

    On the subject of paying indirectly with time, is there any estimate of the cost for Joe Average starting from scratch with BD’s system? Assuming say 100 OD openers sent and a response rate of 10%, maybe something like:

    1. Get decent photos taken and OD profile setup on a few sites: 2 hours.

    2. Trawl through all the munters to find 100 cute girls and send openers to each: 2 hours.

    3. A few messages back and forth with the 10 responders before pitching the FD: 1 hour.

    4. First dates with the 4 who say yes and don’t flake: 10 hours (includes getting ready and travel to/from plus 2 flakes).

    5. Second dates with 2 of these: 4 hours

    Assuming home base with at least 1 of these 2, time required = 19 hours, reasonable?

  45. I’m still a little confused that, within all the rather vitriolic back and forth about the exact nature of human evolutionary psychology, discussions regarding cultural Marxism and some pretty ad hominem remarks, there still seems to be a lack of a logical reason why a man who fulfils BD’s two caveats would go to see a prostitute?

    So far we have:
    – virgin
    – over 60 attempting to sleep with 20ish year olds
    – potentially deployed overseas (although perhaps using traditional game may be a more positive idea)

    The argument that was most recently put forward was that it saves you time.

    However, if you fulfil the two criteria BD set out within both the articles then why would it be more efficient to use a prostitute?

  46. @Billy

    For me:
    ~200 of BDs openers gets 2-5 responses.
    Of those, ~10% convert to a date (so ~400 openers to a date) of those dates ~10% convert to sex. Each date takes ~1 hour + 1 hour prep time (cleaning I wouldn’t normally do, travel to the bar, etc).

    That makes…400 messages at a cost of, say, 30 seconds per message (have to sort through profiles and copy/paste)

    So:
    3 hours sending initial messages.
    1 hour sending follow up messages. (Estimate)
    20 hours of dates
    1-2 hours of follow up dates

    Grand total: 25 hours avg time spent to get to sex with a new chick. Pretty close to your 19 hour guess.

    if I do SDD:
    They message me. For every 10 that I respond to I meet 9. Of those 9 about 8.5 lead to sex. I ‘screen’ them for sex with no money up front.

    0 minutes sending initial messages(they message me)
    1 hr sending follow up messages (near 100% that that message me respond)
    2 hrs dates(sex is always on the first date)
    Grand total: 3 hours

    Downside is they don’t stick around because I don’t pay them, so I need to constantly put in those 3 hours on new chicks, while the other option means I put in the 25-30 hours once.

  47. For me:~200 of BDs openers gets 2-5 responses.Of those, ~10% convert to a date (so ~400 openers to a date) of those dates ~10% convert to sex

    Haha, those numbers are very similar to mine. I’m still not prioritizing my woman life as I’m currently dealing with other problems, but even when I fully turn my attention to this stuff (three years from now based on my current plans), I don’t think my numbers will get much better than that. Maybe I can drag it up to 200 openers for a date instead of 400-500, but that’s probably it.
    I’d be interested to know if any of you here lie a little about your height online, as it seems to be a significant factor (I’m 5′ 8 1/2).

  48. @JOTB

    but saying that you don’t understand boggles my mind. I couldn’t possibly have made my arguments clearer or more specific.

    They might seem clear to you. But to me they seem very emotional and illogical like @wogs said.

    Every time I post here, I’m speaking as an American to (at least in my mind) an exclusively American readership

    WTF? I’ve only been here for a couple of months and its pretty clear there are guys from all over the world commenting. BD’s 2.0 lifestyle is very whole of world not USA-centric as well.

    Seriously? Being treated like a second class citizen for whom sex is a favor doesn’t insult you? Well, to each his own, I guess.

    No because going to see a hooker has nothing to do with being a second class citizen.

    How do you know what “will be?” Did you know the elites …

    If I had to bet my life on it, I would be betting on paid sex being around forever in some form regardless of your Elites theory or any other theory.

    But prostitution is the most basic and elementary manifestation of the beta male/gold digger phenomenon. I suggest that red pill men should be against it because we’re not betas.

    This is just rubbish! Prostitution exists full stop. Red pill men should acknowledge its existence just like everything else out there (eg. women’s hypergamy, the fact marriage, monogamy and the legal system are deadly…) and deal with it accordingly in an Alpha way. Hence BD’s rules on how to use it if you want without hurting you LTH. It’s not beta or alpha on its own. How you use it in your particular circumstance is though. I agree its a big trap for a lot of beta’s.

    Incorrect. I may be a libertarian in the legal sense, but, culturally speaking, you don’t live on a deserted island. If no one wanted to buy drugs, there would be no drug dealing. If millions of beta and omega males wouldn’t put the pussy on a pedestal and shower women with gifts and money just for having a vagina, prostitution either wouldn’t exist, or wouldn’t be even half the lucrative profession that it is today.

    As BD has said a million times, the west is going down and there is nothing any of us can do to stop it. I really can’t believe you said “If millions of beta and omega males wouldn’t….” WTF? They do, they are, and they are not going to stop! And nothing you or I or anyone on this page does is going to make an ounce of difference.

    I have had zero experience with prostitutes. Otherwise, I think I’d be a pretty big hypocrite.

    I know. That’s why I conceded that many prostitutes will fake it for you and even scream their heads off in bed if the price is right. I addressed that. Read it again.

    Correct. Most men that I’ve talked to have backed me up on this. If she isn’t horny than I can’t be horny. Otherwise, you have no objections to just allowing a woman to lay there like a cold fish while you pound her. If you do have an objection to that, then you too can’t enjoy sex unless the woman feels a certain way about it. Otherwise, she’s not a human being, but simply a substitute for your hand. My enjoyment of sex is predicated on the woman’s humanity and my reassurance that she isn’t a robot or a doll.

    Honestly this is a classic. You have zero experience of paid sex and yet you think you know exactly how it is in all circumstances.

    Well in the last 20 years I’ve had sex with over 200 different hookers mostly in Australia and Asia. But a couple in the US as well (admittedly the US is pretty shit). And from 100’s of hours of real experience I can tell you that you don’t have the first clue about what you are talking about!

    You had a crack at Hangups for comparing this to food. “Food is a product. A woman is not”. You are right and wrong. Sex is a product you can buy, but the woman who provide that product are not! When I go to see a hooker, I’m not going to see a philosophical idea running around in your head. I’m going to see a real women. Half the fun is the fact you never know what you are going to get. I won’t deny that sometimes you get the cold fish type. But they are a lot rarer than you think!

    No I don’t have “sociopathic tendencies”. The reason your arguments make zero sense to me is because they are based on fantasies of reality running around in your head. Where as I have 100’s of hour of real experiences that contradict most of what you say.

    Correct. If she were enjoying it, she wouldn’t need to get paid because the sex would be its own reward. Cash payment is only justified if she is a generous lesbian, an asexual, or someone with a super low sex drive.

    Once again you have zero experience and no idea what you are talking about. You’ve never been near a hooker but you know exactly their motivation for doing it. How does that work? In reality there are so many difference motivations and circumstances as to why women do this. Pretty much as varied as the number of women who do it.

    The rest of what you said is pretty much covered in one way or another by the same points above.

     

  49. I’m still a little confused that, within all the rather vitriolic back and forth about the exact nature of human evolutionary psychology, discussions regarding cultural Marxism and some pretty ad hominem remarks, there still seems to be a lack of a logical reason why a man who fulfils BD’s two caveats would go to see a prostitute?

    Because its different and its fun?

    If you have a house full of amazing food you can cook yourself, why would you go out and pay for a restaurant that is so much more expensive? If you can afford to go to a 5 star restaurant why would you sometimes go to the little cheap one instead? If you can afford to travel and stay in 5 star hotels, why would you go on a hiking holiday somewhere with a backpack sleeping in a tent? Why do some gym junkies who measure their food and count every calorie sometimes go to MacDonald’s?

    Life is about difference experiences.

  50. Marty, you seem to have extensive experience of engaging in paid sexual encounters. Would you care to elucidate the reasoning behind your choice to pay for sex rather than (or as well as) engaging a woman through a system such as BD’s?

    My intention is merely to understand the differences of opinion that are being expressed rather than to castigate anyone’s life decisions. Obviously, I can understand why most men see prostitutes – they lack sexual options or the means of acquiring them – but without knowing why a man who has multiple sexual options chooses to engage a prostitute this entire discussion seems increasingly moot.

  51. Assuming home base with at least 1 of these 2, time required = 19 hours, reasonable?

    Asking this is like asking, how much does a house cost. It really depends on what market you’re in. In Manila, probably about an hour, it will also vary within a country, some US cities it will take longer than others for example. It also depends on the quality of girl you require.

    However, if you fulfil the two criteria BD set out within both the articles then why would it be more efficient to use a prostitute?

    Lol, dating must be a new concept to you. If you think dating can be anywhere near as time efficient as spending a few minutes picking up the phone or sending an email and organizing a time to get laid then you need to get out more.

    Now consider a man that gets paid $200 an hour and pays $300 for sex, it’s hard to justify dating at all. Even having regular FB‘s takes a certain time maintenance investment once they’ve been acquired.

    If you can acquire an FB with 20 hours of dating work and see her for 6 months and have sex with her once a week. It would STILL be more time efficient for the $200 an hour guy to pay for sex, and that’s assuming he’s spending zero time in FB maintenance, which is unrealistic.

    of those dates ~10% convert to sex.

    That seems low. This number should be at least 25% even up to about 50% or even 75%. Your other numbers seem ok, although again it depends on city. I believe it’s alot easier to get girls out on dates there from my experience, but harder to convert to sex (maybe because there are less options for them so they go on dates with men they are not completely enthused about), here you spend at least twice as long up to about 4x as long getting a girl out on a date, but chances seem much higher that you’ll get her into bed when you manage to get her out.

    Downside is they don’t stick around because I don’t pay them, so I need to constantly put in those 3 hours on new chicks

    This time will increase considerably as more men start doing this, and may hit a point where it becomes near impossible without paying. As long as the number of guys willing to pay them stays high vs the number of guys looking for ‘free samples’ and then never delivering, it will still be possible. Once you get too many of the latter it will be game over for this technique.

  52. That’s a very good point and I hadn’t considered that. Very true.

    Hot young hookers in the west and to a degree in Asia are constantly having to fuck older, fat, ugly, beta married guys who have completely let themselves go. This becomes like a pressure valve of sexual frustration that builds up over time inside them. Then when a hot younger alpha guy or decent looking older guy who is ripped (probably won’t surprise anyone that most young hookers are type 2’s) and in shape walks in they will let all that frustration out on him. This can result in mind blowing nymphomaniac sex similar to a BPD chick that goes on long past the time paid for.

    I’ve had this a couple of times as well. “Oh your cute. My friend is actually in the back room/just went for a coffee. I think she would really like you too. Do you mind if she joins us?” Ah…let me think….no I don’t, not at all!! 😀

  53. Thank you for you reply Marty – I can certainly understand the virtue of the phrase “variety is the spice of life.”

    If I might distill it down to a less metaphorical form, your argument is broadly: why just have this experience when you can also have that experience?

    The challenge I have with that argument is that it naturally leads me to ask this:

    Why have that experience when you can have this experience which is substantively similar for “free” (or at vastly reduced cost)?

    To borrow from you metaphor – why stay in that five star hotel for $1000 per night when I can stay in this five star hotel for $20 per night?

    The two answers which naturally spring to my mind (you may have others) are that;

    – the experiences are not substantively similar and that the $1000 per night hotel is inherently better ergo the quality of the experience with a prostitute is inherently better than the experience with the non-professional woman of equivalent attraction, which would certainly be a reasonable answer, or;

    – that substantively similar experiences fail to provide the requisite variety and therefore variety should be pursued for its own sake. In which case does the quality of the experience matter or is it simply the total variety of experiences? Should the gym junkie in your example also try a raw chicken nugget simply because life is the sum total of the variety of ones experiences? If they never tried a chicken nugget of any type does it follow that they have had a less fulfilling life because they lack the variety of experience in failing to try that particular food.

    Equally, regarding the fact that it is fun; is it more fun to engage a prostitute than the alternative or is the variety itself fun – in which case why would a variety of non-transactional relationships be insufficient? Is there a psychological element to the fun linked to ownership or challenging societal norms?

    [For clarity – I have never engaged a prostitute or sugarbaby hence my difficulty in understanding the reasoning behind it.]

  54. That seems low. This number should be at least 25% even up to about 50% or even 75%.

    I haven’t been able to change it. You know the city I live in from other posts of mine here and the market is pretty terrible(probably the worst big city in the US). I’m not going to say I couldn’t do better, but I will say I can’t do better without outside help to tell me what’s going on.

    Re. SDD:
    I only lead them on to a minor extent. I don’t talk about money, and most don’t ask me flat out about it. The ones that do I generally don’t end up meeting or fucking. A few will ask me if I ‘have anything for them’ after fucking, which is always funny to me. I’m not someone presenting myself as ‘you’re going to get all this money but I need a free sample first’; more ‘I have money, if you’re lucky maybe I’ll take you skiing with me, but no promises’

  55. I tried to do the following response to @Ahriman but for some reason it got flagged as spam and won’t let me post it. 🙁 So will try again with this header.
    @Ahriman
    For me it all comes down to time and energy. Very much like @WOGS talks about. I can increase my variety massively with much less time and energy by adding some paid sex.
    I have many free options for sex and I am constantly (daily) pursing them. I am 49 and I have a live in OLTR who is 21 who I have sex with every day. Literally. Even when she is on her period (otherwise she complains). We on average have sex with other single girls or couples as least once or twice a week. Finding these girls and couples (mostly online) takes a fair bit of time and energy. Messages, follow ups, meetings etc etc all the usual stuff. We both like variety so we like to find new girls as much as possible. Even though we do have a number of regular couples and single girls. We do cold approach and try and pick up girls and couples when we are out but this is even harder work I’ve found than picking up as a guy. Though we have succeeded a few times. I would like to get my skills up a bit in this area.
    So as an alternative we can also jump on a plane to Thailand and have a quick 5 night holiday staying in a nice condo on the beach. During the 5 nights we had 9 threesomes and 1 foursome with what we consider very hot girls who are only 19-21. The girls cost less than $1,000 Aussie dollars total and the whole holiday apart from the girls cost me less than $2,000. My OLTR pays for her own air fares and some of the costs of staying there. As a comparison. Until recently when I gave up drinking it was not uncommon for me to go out Fri & Sat night and spend $500+ just on drinking and having a fun time with my GF. So a 5 night holiday in Thailand and spending an extra $1,000 to get 10 girls is good value for me and much less time and effort than finding 10 so call free girls of similar quality here.
    Last year I had sex 357 times with 48 different girls including my GF. 26 of those girls where hookers and accounted for 31 times having sex. So sex with hookers is less than 10 of my total sex, but more than 50% of my variety. I pretty much already spend as much time as I can afford chasing so call free sex. There is no absolutely no way I could find 26 extra girls as easily as using hookers. I’m time and energy poor, but I have spare cash.
    I don’t use hookers here is Australia any more. The value is not worth it for me. Most want to charge double for a 3some because there are two people as well which makes it even worse. In Thailand most of the girls we found were genuinely Bi and absolutely love my GF and go crazy over her. So its pretty fun. 🙂

     

  56. I think you still missed my main concern: what if a man really needs the touch of a professional?

    Explanation: I cant climax during sex unless I am deeply, penetrating a woman very hard. Usually Im told to stop because it hurts her. In fact Ive only ever climaxed during sex maybe 6 times. One girl even told my buddy she wont see me again because I hurt her. Its unfortunate because shes beautiful and really fun. So Ive spent 15 years never climaxing during sex.

    But when I met a professional, I told her the issue straight forward. She said no problem, as long as i tipped her well (no pun intended.) It was great!

  57. Hey Marty went down that road foursome Found out a lot guys want to root you or you to root them Not into blokes but funny some of them get jealous if your having a great time shaging the girlfriend or wife. Cheers

  58. Haven’t found that at all Mick. Not even once. On the site we use I’d say 1 out of every 100 couples have a bi or bi-curious guy. We just avoid them. Have come across quite a few beta guys though. Rather than just enjoy it they are fussing about their girl and if she’s ok or not. Meanwhile she is loving all the attention. Doesn’t worry me. I just enjoy it and have fun.

  59. @Niteride Mick:

    Hey Jack not so smart outside the box

    Instead of these ad-hominems, which just make you look intellectually bankrupt, how about something concrete?

    He wants to bang as many pros as he can for free

    No I don’t. I don’t want to bang any pros at all. I view them as disgusting filth.

    Poor Jack $30.00 dollors will break the bank Should stayed home and used your hand!!!!

    Really? Fuck prostitutes or use my hand? Those are my only two options? HAHAHA! Seriously, say no to drugs. And learn how to get laid for free. There’s a whole world out there of free sex that you seem to know nothing about.

  60. @Duke:

    @ JOTB, how old are you?

    33

    Because this might explain why this concept/topic is so alien to you.

    You’re probably right. My world is a “sex for sex” world. And so is this community. Every time we talk about prostitution in the seduction community, I feel like I’ve clicked on the wrong site. There is no point in teaching people how to get laid if prostitution is even on the table. I see it as one or the other. Every time we talk about hookers, we are undoing the very purpose of this place – to teach men how to get laid by seducing women and to explore female sexual psychology and relationship dynamics in order to reach our goals of mutual sexual fulfillment. Whores are for people who have no interest in seduction, and therefore, no interest in this seduction community.

    Maybe that’s why I’m so angry. If I saw this pro-hooker shit on some blue pill forum, I’d just ignore it, but when it infiltrates the PUA world – a world whose very practical purpose for existence contradicts the need for hookers – I get defensive.

    Have you thought of what you will do when you get into your fifties and sixties, and it becomes increasingly harder to have sex for “free”?

    There was no need to put “free” in quotes. No I haven’t, actually. My current vague idea is to establish long term relationships (non-monogamous, of course) with a team of women which will allow us to grow old together. Other than that, my plans for old age (as they pertain to sex) are extremely similar to BD’s. One primary woman and one or two others on the side would satisfy me in old age. Although, a part of me can’t even imagine being as horny as I am now in my 60s, 70s, and beyond. But we’ll see.

    Also, the fact that you are in a swingers environment, might color your perception/bias.

    My girlfriend is the swinger. I’ve only gone to a swingers party with her once. I didn’t like it. The other times, she has gone by herself, or with a fuck buddy. I’m in a poly environment where me and my girl have group sex with her friends every so often. I also have my separate fuck buddies on the side (currently 3: 2 regular, both married and 1 sporadic and single) and she has hers (4: 3 men and 1 woman), not counting the friendly group sex with her poly circle (and the swinger parties she goes to).

    And yes, I suppose when I’m in a community full of red pill and enthusiastic sex kittens, the idea of a woman being so unenthusiastic that I have to pay her to fuck me provokes a visceral reaction on my part due to being deeply offended by the idea.

    This situation of yours lifts you into privileged status, given you have a large pool of current and potential prospects that most men just don’t have access to (very few men are “hip” to that scene even if they are non-monogamous).

    Yeah, I guess that’s true. That’s why I always steer these men to the pagan/Wiccan sites and circles, or alternative spirituality communities (you can find them online). You find those and you’ve struck gold. I knew I’d be with my girl for a long time when she showed me her copy of the book “The Ethical Slut” on our first date.

    I think similarly to you, and have always tried to imagine a world where men refused to pay for sex, either through marriage, dating, or prostitution. Unfortunately, that is pure fantasy and not how the world works.

    But it’s how this seduction community should work. If we can’t save the world, can we at least save this community from degenerating into a “sex for non-sexual motivations” mentality? I’m just saying, let’s keep this shit out of here.

    One can only do his part in trying to get laid with the least amount of effort, money and time.

    Sure. And prostitution contradicts at least one item on that list.

     

  61. @Gil Galad:

    Frankly Jack, you’re displaying the same misguided “it’s not nature, it’s culture” attitude that the blank slate-ist feminazis have. What you said there is just another “secular creationist” myth about how human nature works.

    What the fuck are you talking about?

    Are you going to say that prostitution among penguins is penguin female supremacy ? Or orangutan female supremacy ?

    Penguins and orangutans pay money for sex? Huh?

    Is a male bird that makes a nest with shiny stolen jewelry to attract the females being a bird female supremacist ?

    No. The so called K type breeding strategy is necessary in a world without science or technology. Due to their physical/biological limitations and inferior physical strength, women will have sex with men in exchange for those men working for them, giving them food, providing a roof over their heads, and so forth. In a jungle environment where life is brutal and work is physically strenuous and deadly, this makes perfect sense, hence traditional marriage and “conservative family values.” That’s why lesbians opted instead for what everyone today calls “prostitution,” since it was easier on the them to have ONSs for food instead of submitting to the constant sexual demands of a “husband.” In the third world, this setup still makes perfect sense today.

    But here in the West, our technological progress has allowed for a gender neutral economy in which women can materially support themselves without connecting it to sexuality, thus rendering the old prostitutions (including marriage) obsolete. This is why I rail against tradcons who want women to stay home, or say that women would be happier at home. The sexually open minded lifestyle that most of us are trying to lead here would be impossible if not for both men and women equally working.

    But nothing above applies to birds, orangutans, penguins, or current third world peasants. So no, what they’re doing is not female supremacy. My beliefs would be easier to understand if you just keep in mind that I see myself as speaking to a western audience and articulating western/American values.

    You agonize over some fundamental difference between spending effort into flirtation and spending effort into saving money for payment, but biology doesn’t care about the distinction.

    But this community should care if we are indeed committed to the R type goals of sexual liberation.

    You’re also obsessing over this “get out of the matrix” idea, and what you don’t realize is that many sugar babies truly love their less attractive and non-alpha sugar daddies. And you want to know why ? because money giving is not intellectualized as you assume, it acts on the instinct. It’s not “I’m sleeping with him because he gives me money”, it’s “when he gives me money, somehow I feel more comfortable about sleeping with him”. Instinct, not intellect. Biology, not culture.

    This is what BD calls “OBW,” or obsolete biological wiring. And different people have different biology, as environmental influences play a role in activating or deactivating certain key genes during a person’s first 12 years of life (see epigenetics). Both nature and nurture are correct, since adapting to environmental changes is what evolution does. It’s fine to acknowledge that gold diggers and prudes follow a different set of biological instincts than high sex drive poly women, but we must still make a decision in this community what we stand for. The goal here is sexual liberation and non-monogamy. Hence, K type considerations should be rejected from red pill circles, as we don’t want to go back to traditional gender roles. If we did, this community and this blog wouldn’t be here.

    I don’t know if I’m against your opinion itself on prostitution (maybe it is a very bad idea, maybe it is super-adamaging, maybe it does doom you to betaness), but some of your arguments are way off in that, by reproducing the same mindset of the ideologies you hate, they show that your way doesn’t solve the core problem: denial of a degree of determinism in how animals behave, especially when reproduction is concerned.

    See above. If some human women are old fashioned despite modern technology making their sexual strategy obsolete because evolution works slowly and “old habits die hard,” so be it. But that doesn’t change the fact that we, as a community, should – as per our sex-positive mission here – reject these obsolete gender roles and embrace the cutting edge (sexual liberation), which evolution will eventually adapt the whole species to (assuming a lack of a technological collapse).

    Every time feminists want to deny a biological determinism, they invent a creation myth. They take an example of something anecdotal that has indeed occurred but that hardly represents the general cause of a phenomenon, and they say “see, right there, that’s why X is happening”; case in point, the idea that men pay for sex to “exert power over women”.

    You’re making the opposite mistake. You must take social context into consideration as well. When I see a man in a third world shithole providing for his wife and family in exchange for sex and the wife taking care of the home, I nod in approval. But when I see spoiled bitches in a country like America – where they can financially support themselves without physical strain (thanks to air conditioned offices and comfortable chairs) – demand payment for sex (as if they’re doing the man a favor) or material resources and a certain “lifestyle,” I call bullshit. Being exclusively a determinist is just as bad. Balance.

    Barring radical (and probably technology-driven) changes in the human condition, prostitution isn’t going away anytime soon.

    And those technology driven changes will happen. When sex robots come out and betas will be able to get laid by purchasing one at a sex store or going on a Fox reality TV show where they pick the “love of their life” among many women only to then find out if she’s human or robot, women will lose all their power over betas, thus forcing them to become de-spoiled, which will give alphas even less hassle than now. Can’t wait.

    And by the way, IMO every single human on the planet who is currently doing a job he doesn’t love much (not even one he hates) is engaging in cerebral prostitution:

    Correct. But there’s nothing wrong with that. People don’t have to be gaga about their jobs in order to get the job done right. Most jobs don’t include activities that are predicated upon an enthusiastic human consciousness for them to achieve their purpose. But if the purpose of sex that we are promoting here is pleasure, then pleasure is precisely predicated upon human enthusiasm. Otherwise, you’re turning sex into a business, thus undoing the very point of this blog and community.

    And by the way, we don’t encouraging corporate misery here either, which is why BD preaches the location independent lifestyle and following your passion.

    he is not truly doing his passion, he is putting his brain for hire to make money (“I don’t particularly enjoy spreading my neurons for you, but you’re paying me”).

    But if the personal world were to be marketed just like the professional one, it would, by definition, cease to be personal, thus undoing any and all human happiness and joy. That’s what separates things like sex from things like computer programming. The latter is a job. The former is about joy and the escape from work and business. Pleasure isn’t essential for computer programming. It is for sex.

    One more example of refusing to engage the radfems with their own mindset and on the contrary, doing away with their silly mind-body divide (summarized by this: reluctantly admitting that bodily differences are evolutionary, but psychological differences hell no).

    Psychological differences are both evolutionary and environmental/cultural.

     

  62. @JOTB

    Didn’t address my previous response as expected but still slamming people with a different lifestyle or philosophy than your own I see. PUA/redpill or whatever you want to call it and paying for sex are totally compatible, in some cases paying is more redpill than getting it for ‘free’.

    I’m in a poly environment where me and my girl have group sex with her friends every so often.

     

    How attractive are all these women? Objectively. Like if most men looked at them would they say they were all hot in the traditional sense?

    So slim perhaps shapely or curvy but still fit, attractive faces, hot/tight bodies from hitting the gym, nice perky breasts and a good size, long hair with a normal style or color (brown, black, blonde, red etc.), nice white teeth, cute noses, alluring or pretty eyes, no tats (or a few feminine ones), no excessive piercings, dresses sexy/fashionable.

    Granted I know that’s not every man’s cup of tea and their can be slight variations, but the vast majority are most attracted to women that fit that mold as close as possible.

    I don’t really expect an honest answer to that but this gives me a hint…

    That’s why I always steer these men to the pagan/Wiccan sites and circles, or alternative spirituality communities (you can find them online).

    Yeah…

    If you’re the sort of guy that is happy with girls that aren’t in high demand, then sex is always going to be cheaper or free whether we’re talking time or money. If you want the girls that most other guys also want, then the time investment to get one is going to get greater as the demand for a girl at that level gets greater.

    IOW the more universally attractive a girl, the more time it will take to get one, thus the more appealing paying becomes when weighing up time cost vs what you can earn in other pursuits.

  63. BD have you used openminded.com? It’s from SeekingArrangement founder, but for open relationships. I wonder what the user experiences are

  64. BD have you used openminded.com? It’s from SeekingArrangement founder, but for open relationships. I wonder what the user experiences are

    No. A site like that, that openly talks about nonmonogamous relationships, isn’t going to catch on. It’s about 5-10 years too early.

  65. I should open a bottle of champagne or something: this is the first time I have a relatively peaceful exchange with Jack OTB.

    @Jack: I think the only real disagreement we have left is on the idea that any woman receiving money for sex is “not heterosexual enough” or thinks she’s doing the guy a favor. Unless I missed a comment, you haven’t addressed the fact that when there’s an obvious SMV differential between a man and woman, she is doing him a favor, in a sense: no matter how heterosexual she is, if he’s decidedly lower SMV then her payment can’t be just his dick for her pussy. So in this sense sex is indeed transactional, and the low(er) SMV man has to bridge the gap one way or another. The way we advocate here is self-improvement and game, but my point is that it isn’t absurd or a sign of asexuality to demand money for sex, even when you like sex. And my impression is that SMV rises exponentially, so the gap between a 9.5 and a 7.5 is greater than between an 8 and a 6. Normal men who go after the absolute hottest are gonna have a very hard time getting it done for free.

  66. @BD: can you do a post about those of your dates that don’t lead to sex ? We already know how a gameless person can screw up a date, but it’d be interesting to see how the small percentage of unsuccessful 1st/2nd dates of a high game person look like, at what point you realize they’re dead ends, etc.

  67. I once read a blog from a hooker writing about her experiences. She mentioned how there was this ‘high-class prostitute fantasy’ among many women that she was living; essentially the turn on is that as a woman you are so desirable that successful, wealthy men who can easily get quality women will pay for you.

    After reading that I thought I might try a prostitute to act out some weird fantasies that women in my life hadn’t been able or willing to do. I figured if I used a fairly expensive hooker I could find one that enjoyed her work like the woman I had read about. That seemed like it might actually be fun. I searched a long time on the internet at escort sites and even though some were so ‘high-class’ ($10,000 a night stuff) that I couldn’t have paid for them anyway I could not find one prostitute that was attractive enough to me to consider paying good money for. This is in a very wealthy urban area on the west coast. Maybe I just didn’t find the right sites, but the thought that you can pay for sex with a really hot prostitute for only $300 seems like a complete fantasy to me. I think it would be closer to $5,000 in a cheap market, if you can even find one worth fucking. Maybe it’s better in poor countries or something but in the USA, no way.

  68. @Marty

    Thank you very much for your detailed response – it makes a lot of sense based on what you’ve said about your circumstances.

    Particularly like the reference of the trip to Thailand – one of my follow up questions was whether Geo-arbitrage was a consideration at all within the community. On a personal level I am working toward the highest degree of location independence possible to allow for longer stays in different cultures but if vacations work for you then kudos.

    By any chance – do you spreadsheet your relationship life like BD because that was some pretty accurate referencing to annual encounters?

     

    Congratulations on having a lifestyle that makes you happy.

    @WolfOfGeorgeStreet
    Lol, dating must be a new concept to you. If you think dating can be anywhere near as time efficient as spending a few minutes picking up the phone or sending an email and organizing a time to get laid then you need to get out more.
    Now consider a man that gets paid $200 an hour and pays $300 for sex, it’s hard to justify dating at all. Even having regular FB’s takes a certain time maintenance investment once they’ve been acquired.
    If you can acquire an FB with 20 hours of dating work and see her for 6 months and have sex with her once a week. It would STILL be more time efficient for the $200 an hour guy to pay for sex, and that’s assuming he’s spending zero time in FB maintenance, which is unrealistic.
    There are numerous intellectual problems with the above including, but not limited to, the unavoidable requirement for assumptions when building the hypothetical situation, the challenge of making a like for like comparison between the good/benefit (is it sexual intercourse or is it (as you pointed out above regarding the illegality of prostitution in some countries) time spent enjoying the company of a third party which “may” result in sexual intercourse*) and most importantly the fact that, when you run the numbers on the example you gave above, paying for sex is less efficient by a reasonably significant degree.

    Now, you can counter with an anecdotal example from your life which supports your assertion and I can counter with an anecdotal example from my life which supports my assertion and both would be equally fallacious because anecdotal arguments are, by their very nature, poor arguments. Alternatively you could change the parameters of the hypothesis but having to alter parameters until they “prove” the argument does tend to undermine the argument.

    In your defence, taking an intellectually rigorous approach to such a complex issue is very difficult but my (off the cuff) response to your assertion of time efficiency is that, in order for you to substantiate the claim you would have to show that the opportunity cost of paying an escort is lower than engaging a non-professional within the general macroeconomic conditions of your locality. Therefore, it might be more accurate for you to refer to the act of engaging a prostitute as more convenient rather than more efficient.

    With regards to your ad hominem remarks – I would get out and date more but then I might only understand economic theory as well as you do…oh well, opportunity cost at work again.

  69. @WolfOfGeorgeStreet

    *In many places it isn’t, even including some places in the US. For places that it IS illegal, you can pay escorts (or SB’s) for their TIME and what happens between two consenting adults during that time is their own business. There is nothing illegal about that at all provided it’s not a ‘pay for sex’ interaction. So this point is irrelevant, as you can pay for sex without technically paying for sex and breaking any laws. No problem at all.

    As an aside, that does seem like rather shaky jurisprudence…

  70. As an aside, that does seem like rather shaky jurisprudence…

    One could say the same thing about getting married for the wrong reasons. Or taking a girl out for drinks or dinner, or on a vacation, or offering her mentorship, or a job, or fixing her car for free or even spending your time dealing with her emotional baggage etc.

    At what point do you draw the line between directly paying for sex and her giving it to you for ‘free’?

    The answer is when you directly pay money for it, there has to be an actual agreement that you are paying $x for x, y, z sexual acts. Otherwise almost every male/female sexual encounter is prostitution.

    So as long as you’re not agreeing in writing or verbally to directly paying for a sexual act, it’s not prostitution when looking at it from a legal standpoint, simple.

  71. @John

    BD have you used openminded.com? It’s from SeekingArrangement founder, but for open relationships. I wonder what the user experiences are

    It’s a pussy desert. Maybe more popular in the West, but where I live, totally useless. They even made messaging completely free but it hasn’t picked up.

  72. One could say the same thing about getting married for the wrong reasons. Or taking a girl out for drinks or dinner, or on a vacation, or offering her mentorship, or a job, or fixing her car for free or even spending your time dealing with her emotional baggage etc.
    At what point do you draw the line between directly paying for sex and her giving it to you for ‘free’?

    A wise man once said:

    “You don’t pay a prostitute for sex, you pay her to leave afterwards.”

  73. @BD: can you do a post about those of your dates that don’t lead to sex ? We already know how a gameless person can screw up a date, but it’d be interesting to see how the small percentage of unsuccessful 1st/2nd dates of a high game person look like, at what point you realize they’re dead ends, etc.

     

     

    I would also like to see BD do a blog about this,  how he can sniff out a dead end lead

  74. Women are rather good at being internally indifferent to where the average man can’t determine if she is a time waster or not. Best way to gauge is the three date rule.

  75. I consider my utilization of prostitutes to be an important positive force in my life.

    In my teens and early 20’s, I suffered from extremely low self-esteem. I met my future wife in college (I was a virgin, she seduced me, I was too beta to be the leader). We lived together and then married.

    I remember literally having the thought, “well, I fooled one woman into having sex with me, I need to hang onto this one since that’ll never happen again”.  My scarcity mentality, poor self esteem, beta mindset…you name it, I was the epitome of it.

    We got divorced when I was 40 and I figured I wouldn’t have any problems getting occasionally laid. From everything I’d heard, my sexual market value was high. Good shape, not bad looking, etc.

    How wrong I was.  If only I had BD’s materials back then.
    My beta mindset/scarcity mentality was too entrenched.  

    What followed was three years of involuntary celibacy. In desperation, I went cross country to Nevada for the sole purpose of legally employing a prostitute for the first time, which I did.

    When I returned to the large city I lived in, I continued dating and also began seeing prostitutes regularly.

    Let me be clear that I agree strongly with all of BD’s arguments/conditions for seeing a prostitute. I don’t consider my case to contradict them, on the contrary, it is a compelling argument to continue to work on self improvement.  Thankfully, I’ve made great strides in that area.

    But there are two things using prostitutes really helped me with and continue to help me with:

    -Abundance mentality. I’m in a monogamous LTR right now. I agree with BD’s premise that you should already know how to get laid reasonably quickly for free.  But, the fact is, RIGHT NOW, I can’t say I have that confidence.  So knowing that I’m not “chained” to my GF for sex, that I could just call up a prostitute the day after we broke up is a big help to my mindset.  As we all know, there is no greater power/confidence builder than the ability to walk away.

    -Minimizing putting the sex act on a pedestal.  I admit I’m a little surprised this one hasn’t come up in the comments.  
    I will link to an important BD post: http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2015/07/07/being-unable-to-compartmentalize-sex-is-a-liability/
    I had this issue in full force and going to prostitutes really helped.

    Sexually, my LTR is great.  There isn’t anything better than sex with someone you care about and who deeply desires you.  But there’s also nothing wrong with just having sex for sex’s sake.  I compare it to going to a fine restaurant or going to McDonald’s. Eating in the former is a sensual pleasure to be savored.  But sometimes you go to McDonald’s to just stuff your face with fuel because you’re hungry.  And, as long as you’re not doing that every day, it’s OK.

    But I can confirm what BD said about that issue.  Going to prostitutes was highly addictive for me and definitely was something I started to worry about, both from a monetary and mindset perspective.

     

  76. How bizarre. A libertarian that gets angry about choices made by other people, who knows all about prostitutes based on having never met any and peddling clichees to fit an extremly narrow view of the whole thing.

    I cant see anything wrong with prostitution unless there is evidence that women are doing harm to themselves. Which there is not. Its legal where I live. Feminists campaigned for a ban a few years ago but it backfired as a government investigation found the women to be extremly much like everyone else.

    Can it harm men? Sure, as so much else if done too much or the wrong way or whatever. But that doesnt mean it cant make sense for others. Its quick, lots of variety, particular women doing particular things, a completly different mind set and whatever else.. For some women, selling is a huge turn-on.

    I dont think I will ever visit a regular prostitute but the private or SB thing could be interesting. Possibly.

    @Kurt I am amazed at some of those numbers. From what I can find here, there are lots of attractive women selling sex. They seem to be mostly eastern european (likely because locals will not show photos) and seems to typically cost 100 dollars/ half hour. As a shelf-stacker here probably makes about 25 dollars/hour, I am somewhat surprised that more men arent doing this. Perhaps they are.

  77. I would also like to see BD do a blog about this,  how he can sniff out a dead end lead

    Its probably in one of his books. I have a list of hang ups, probably similar to BD’s:

    -You try to flirt with her physically and she shies away (on a second date, not really recommended on a first date unless the chick is enthusiastic about meeting you/spending time with you)
    -She changes the subject when you talk about sex/doesn’t play along when you use innunedo in your dialogue (which I do all the time).
    -One word answers/one phrase answers
    -When texting her she’ll respond quickly to stuff OTHER than meetup plans
    -Doesn’t hold eye contact

    I’m sure there are more. It’s not too difficult to see when a chick is just stringing you along really.

  78. @WolfOfGeorgeStreet:

    Didn’t address my previous response as expected

    I was going to, but my comments to Gil Galad were censored by WordPress and I don’t want to post anything until my previous comments are restored, which took a while. Then I got busy.

    How attractive are all these women? Objectively.

    I know this is your thing, but I only have two modes in my brain for a woman’s physical looks – fuckable and unfuckable.

    Like if most men looked at them would they say they were all hot in the traditional sense?

    I don’t know. All of them lead very impressive sex lives, so if that’s an indication, I would say yes.

    So slim perhaps shapely or curvy but still fit,

    Yes definitely. None of them are fat. Fat women are unfuckable to me.

    attractive faces,

    Way too subjective for me to answer. All I can say is that I’m attracted to their faces.

    hot/tight bodies from hitting the gym,

    I have no idea. My girl doesn’t go to the gym and I’m not sure if any of my others do. I’m guessing no.

    nice perky breasts and a good size,

    Oh definitely. I’m a breast guy so this is important to me. Yes, all of their breasts are definitely nice and perky.

    long hair with a normal style or color (brown, black, blonde, red etc.),

    That’s a big affirmative as well. Although, my definition of long is longer than a normal man’s. So yes, all of these women have normal length hair for females. I’m not into women who’s hair is dyke short. And yes, all of their hair is a natural color (barring some occasional highlights).

    nice white teeth,

    Meh. My girlfriend is a smoker and so are most of the women I sleep with. I can count the number of women I slept with that were non-smokers on one hand. So the teeth are yellowish, but nothing that I would consider disgusting.

    cute noses,

    Jesus Christ dude! I have no idea. I’m being serious. Even as it pertains to my girlfriend, I literally have no idea what type of nose she has (noses have types?). I don’t think I have ever fixated on her nose, lol. Holy shit, dude!

    alluring or pretty eyes,

    Um……sure…..I guess.

    no tats (or a few feminine ones),

    Oh they have tats. And most of them have “tramp stamps.” And I love it. Tats are a huge turn on for me. My girl has a “tramp stamp,” a tattoo of angel’s wings on her back, and the yin/yang symbol on both of her upper arms (reversed on each arm), surrounded by barbed wire. Most (although not all) of the other girls whom we fuck in her circle have at least one tattoo (one of them has quite a lot), although the two married ones that I fuck separately have nothing.

    no excessive piercings,

    Definitely not. That’s disgusting to me. My girl used to have a tiny nose ring, but took it out. Only her ears are pieced now. The rest have either no piercings (not counting the ears) or a nose piercing and/or a tiny lip piercing, but nothing excessive. One girl whom my girl wanted me to fuck had a tongue ring. I said no, since that’s too disgusting for me. I don’t want to feel metal when I’m kissing anyone, lol.

    dresses sexy/fashionable.

    I don’t know about fashionable, as I literally have no idea what female fashion looks like (nor do I care). As for sexy, I’d say only occasionally. When we’re out in public, my girl dresses very modestly, as if she’s the type of girl whom you’d never suspect is sexually wild. In public, people peg her as a huge prude, judging by her outfits. This is by design. She is fantastic when it comes to discretion. And I don’t really give a fuck about clothes, to be honest, except for calculating how long it will take to take them off, or whether the bra undoes from the front or the back.

    Granted I know that’s not every man’s cup of tea and their can be slight variations, but the vast majority are most attracted to women that fit that mold as close as possible.

    Well, all of them have had sex with more men than most men will have birthdays, so that should tell you something.

    I don’t really expect an honest answer to that but this gives me a hint…

    That’s why I always steer these men to the pagan/Wiccan sites and circles, or alternative spirituality communities (you can find them online).

    Yeah…

    How does that give you a hint? Are pagans fat and ugly down under?

    If you’re the sort of guy that is happy with girls that aren’t in high demand,

    Their sexual experience and personal numbers of partners tell me that they’re in very high demand.

    then sex is always going to be cheaper or free whether we’re talking time or money. If you want the girls that most other guys also want, then the time investment to get one is going to get greater as the demand for a girl at that level gets greater.

    As BD and others have told you many times, your standards for physical looks are considerably higher than most other men. If a woman doesn’t look like a super model, you lose interest. Fine, but just so you know, other men’s definition of “hot” is, in many cases, significantly broader than yours. We’re not fucking fat women here, or ugly women with no teeth, but we don’t think a woman is ugly just because she’d never be on the cover of a swimsuit issue.

    If I’d have to give an objective rating with a gun to my head, I’d say my girl is a 7 (or maybe an 8 with makeup), but again, I don’t know.

    IOW the more universally attractive a girl, the more time it will take to get one, thus the more appealing paying becomes when weighing up time cost vs what you can earn in other pursuits.

    Assuming that mainstream hotness is more important to you than sincerity during the act of sex.

    Although I definitely have physical standards (she can only be curvy at best), I’m more turned on by a woman’s sexual attitude, personality, and general love of life, coolness, and breeziness. My girlfriend is, speaking in general, one of the most lighthearted and “find happiness in the moment” woman I’ve ever slept with. The women in her poly circle are similar. Her energy and zest are infectious, and I especially love her individualism, essential immunity to mainstream values, and how she owns herself. You can tell by how she carries herself when she walks. These are all tremendous turn ons for me. I’ll take that any day over a blue pill sheep who just happens to be a runway model.

     

  79. @Marty:

    WTF? I’ve only been here for a couple of months and its pretty clear there are guys from all over the world commenting. BD’s 2.0 lifestyle is very whole of world not USA-centric as well.

    Don’t care. I’m not going to acclimate myself to the whole goddamn planet. I am an American who is speaking as an American from that viewpoint. Now, if I specifically address a non-American person here, I will adjust my thoughts accordingly. Otherwise, I’m not bothering.

    No because going to see a hooker has nothing to do with being a second class citizen.

    Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree I guess. The concept of actually paying a woman money to fuck me would make me feel pretty inferior and unattractive, but whatever.

    If I had to bet my life on it, I would be betting on paid sex being around forever in some form regardless of your Elites theory or any other theory.

    Once cash is a thing of the past and all transactions are computerized, it’s going to be hard to get away with any type of crime involving money. Just saying.

    As BD has said a million times, the west is going down and there is nothing any of us can do to stop it. I really can’t believe you said “If millions of beta and omega males wouldn’t….” WTF? They do, they are, and they are not going to stop! And nothing you or I or anyone on this page does is going to make an ounce of difference.

    That’s an extremely disempowered mindset. I agree that one person can’t really make a difference, but there is strength in numbers. To say that we are so irrelevant that nothing we say or do is going to make an ounce of difference, regardless of how big our numbers are, is just a bridge too far for me. You are bordering on nihilism now.

    When I go to see a hooker, I’m not going to see a philosophical idea running around in your head. I’m going to see a real women. Half the fun is the fact you never know what you are going to get. I won’t deny that sometimes you get the cold fish type. But they are a lot rarer than you think!

    And many of them fake it as well. You can’t deny that. You made fun of me for caring what a woman’s mindset is during sex, saying that that is utterly bizarre, or something. But instead of admitting that you don’t care if she’s a cold fish in bed or not, you’ve instead opted for saying that the cold fish type is rarer than I think. Okay, so you do care that they at least pretend to be enthusiastic, just like me. Great, at least I’m not alone in that.

    Once again you have zero experience and no idea what you are talking about. You’ve never been near a hooker but you know exactly their motivation for doing it. How does that work?

    I never said I’ve never been near a hooker. I said I just never had sex with one. Back in my very early lawyer days, I had (non-sexual) contact with prostitutes in a few legal capacities. They were the saddest women I have ever met. Truly heartbreaking.

     

     

  80. @ThomasNordic:

    How bizarre. A libertarian that gets angry about choices made by other people,

    There is no contradiction here. I’m only a libertarian in the legal sense. My stance on prostitution is cultural.

    who knows all about prostitutes based on having never met any

    As I indicated to Marty, I have indeed met and spoken with a number of them. I’ve just never had sex with them.

    and peddling clichees

    What clichés?

    to fit an extremly narrow view of the whole thing.

    Red pill seducers have no business paying for sex. The fact that that opinion is controversial on a seduction forum is sad.

    @Zandd:

    There isn’t anything better than sex with someone you care about and who deeply desires you.  But there’s also nothing wrong with just having sex for sex’s sake.

    Prostitution isn’t “sex for sex’s sake.” That’s what I advocate. Prostitution is sex for money’s sake. Do you not see the profound difference between casual sex due to mutual horniness vs. professional sex for money?

     

  81. @Wolf:

    At what point do you draw the line between directly paying for sex and her giving it to you for ‘free’?

    If the sex takes place due to mutual sexual arousal with the sex being its own reward, that is free sex. When she gives you sex with a non-sexual and/or gender neutral motivation, that is paid sex.

    The answer is when you directly pay money for it, there has to be an actual agreement that you are paying $x for x, y, z sexual acts. Otherwise almost every male/female sexual encounter is prostitution.

    No. The key distinction is sexual attraction on the part of the woman and the man doing essentially nothing for her as a result of the sex. Almost every male/female sexual encounter is NOT prostitution, but I agree that many are (especially marriage to rich beta males).

    So as long as you’re not agreeing in writing or verbally to directly paying for a sexual act, it’s not prostitution when looking at it from a legal standpoint, simple.

    From the legal standpoint, I agree. From a cultural standpoint, prostitution is having sex for non-sexual reasons, or in the expectation of having something non-sexual provided in exchange for the sex.

     

  82. Now consider a man that gets paid $200 an hour and pays $300 for sex, it’s hard to justify dating at all.

    Wolf, the above is where we disagree the strongest. It becomes easier to justify dating even in the above context when you realize that some of us want a sincere human connection, even during casual sex. We want assurance that the woman is fucking us because she wants to, not because she’s getting paid. This is why we wish to remove all of the non-sexual safety nets in order to get a naked picture of her core personality. We want to make sure that she’d rather be doing nothing except fucking us right now. How do we know that? Answer – remove all non-sexual incentives. Only then will we get a glimpse at her true self. We don’t want to indulge in fantasies. We want human genuineness. Is this worthy of mocking? Why is it so hard to comprehend?

     

  83. @Gil Galad:

    @Jack: I think the only real disagreement we have left is on the idea that any woman receiving money for sex is “not heterosexual enough” or thinks she’s doing the guy a favor.

    Well she does think she’s doing the guy a favor. Otherwise, she wouldn’t ask for compensation.

    Unless I missed a comment, you haven’t addressed the fact that when there’s an obvious SMV differential between a man and woman, she is doing him a favor, in a sense: no matter how heterosexual she is, if he’s decidedly lower SMV then her payment can’t be just his dick for her pussy. So in this sense sex is indeed transactional, and the low(er) SMV man has to bridge the gap one way or another.

    Fine, but the framing here is what disturbs me. Let’s say everything you said above is true. What should be the proper reaction from this community? Pity! Let’s feel sorry for the loser with the low SMV. Let’s acknowledge this as the sad situation that this is. I wouldn’t be so defensive if people in a supposedly sex-positive and pro-self improvement community would just acknowledge the sadness of it all and promote happiness instead. Instead, we are getting something very different here.

    The way we advocate here is self-improvement and game, but my point is that it isn’t absurd or a sign of asexuality to demand money for sex, even when you like sex.

    But having sex with someone you’re not attracted to fucks you up. If a woman is numb down there because she’s fucking all these obese toothless guys, how can she then go home after a hard day’s work and enjoy sex with her boyfriend after training her vagina to be numb? Eventually, it stops being a switch she can just turn on and off. That’s the notion I got from the prostitutes I talked to. They were sad and washed up souls who killed inside them the ability to see sex as anything positive, or anything more than an (often disgusting) job.

    Prostitution is a sad reality that we shouldn’t be promoting here. If it’s not sad for the man because he’s doing it for the sake of “alpha convenience,” or whatever the fuck Wolf said, than it’s sad for the woman who turned something joyful into a fucking job.

    Even if I agree with everything you’re saying, the pro-hooker framing here is all fucked up. Let’s acknowledge the sad reality of it all and strive for something better.

     

  84. As a guy who has was addicted over the years, I agree 100% with BD’s assessment.  I have wasted tons of life savings and am not where I need to be financially as a result, nor do I care to really date women I find attractive or even try.  Currently I am trying to just be responsible and not indulge and pick up some more hobbies, but the temptation is definitely there.  Normal sex now feel foreign to me because I have not done it for so long, so I’m hoping just not doing anything for awhile will cause a mental reset.

    Some things I wanted to clear up for guys who have never actually gone down this road:

    1) I did it because I was after a very certain physical type of girl to engage in my deepest, darkest hedonistic fetishes.  Maybe some guys can do that right away with girls for free that they want to fuck, but I had trouble just getting a date.  I think it would take way too much time to get to a point where I could indulge my fantasies with her on a sexual level.

    2)  Beautiful escorts can often take a very long time to get back to you, and often do not get back to you at all. They usually engage in a very strict screening process as well, as they are in demand and are super-safe.  It took me months to meet up with certain girls.  A good amount never responded to my initial communication at all. Escorts is a numbers game too.

    3) Many will hang out with you well beyond the designated time, I have had that happen on more than one occasion.  A lot of this depends on well you conversate.  I had an extremely gorgeous escort forget the donation more than once after she left my place, though the donation was put in the same place for her to take as always.  A different escort actually insisted on giving me back some of my donation when I tried to leave in advance of our agreed upon time, after I banged the shit out of her like an animal multiple times –  I was so surprised because I was fine paying the total amount, I just realized midway through that I needed to leave to go do something else.  Watching an escort count back your own money to you after you fucked her is kind of surreal.   Another did not leave my house for more than 3 hours after the time was up, wanted me to come hang out with her, and I actually refused and began to worry she wasn’t going to leave.  She was extremely pretty, but I hated her attitude.  It was the first time I learned that I really prefer girls with an attitude best described as humble, appreciative, really down-to-Earth.  One came to visit me who happened to be working near my city even though she was from out of state, and because we had never met before and she had no car, we agreed she would spend the night at my place but we would start our appointment the next morning.  We ended up fucking that night after dinner, and I didn’t pay her extra.

    4) Escorts will treat you much, much better than the typical client if you are well-groomed, polite, and physically fit.   Some show absolute appreciation if you are nice, and it goes beyond money, because escorts do often get shitty guys, which is the single reason I hated partaking in the hobby – you cannot stand knowing that a girl is going out there to service some guy who will mistreat her or make her feel uncomfortable.  While I had fetishes, they were always consented to and explained upfront.  I have an had an escort for free, based on years of friendship.  I have seen escorts literally get excited to feel my arms after I did some weight-lifting.  If I was an objectively handsome man, I can only imagine how much more horny they would have gotten. They are not repulsed by every single client, and many are addicted to sex.  The most common place you will see undercover escorts is daytime strip clubs.  I have met a few lookers here and there that charge a very minimal tip on top of dances for ‘full service’.  The highest tip I have seen is $350, the lowest is $150.

    5) You feel like a complete loser after she leaves, and you feel a little more poor then before, because your savings just went down!

    6) You begin to think guys who put up with any type of shit from a ‘regular’ women are crazy, and this point I think represents the most dangerous aspect of this activity – there are all kinds of  legitimate reasons women who are wives, gfs, or friends may not be 100% pleasant all the time, but it is too late,  your perspective is skewed to a hyper-critical degree   Also scary is that you do not feel the passage of time, because you are stuck repeating the same fantasy over and over, while people around you are actually dating, sometimes getting married and starting families with the passage of time.  So there is definitely a lack of progress, or regression in progress that takes place.

     

  85. @Wolf:

    1. Prostitution is illegal

    In many places it isn’t, even including some places in the US. For places that it IS illegal, you can pay escorts (or SB’s) for their TIME and what happens between two consenting adults during that time is their own business. There is nothing illegal about that at all provided it’s not a ‘pay for sex’ interaction. So this point is irrelevant, as you can pay for sex without technically paying for sex and breaking any laws. No problem at all.

    Yes, I am aware of these legal loopholes, which I actually applaud as a way of getting around these ridiculous anti-prostitution laws, which don’t work anyway and have no place in a free society. Still, the fact that prostitution is a crime is a relevant point to make, especially for inexperienced dudes who may very well get arrested for using the wrong service or framing the interaction in the wrong way when getting caught up in a sting.

    The fact that she’s getting paid for something she often enjoys doing for free (with the right guy) is irrelevant, obviously it would be better to get it for free,

    Thank you for admitting this.

    and if it were as simple as cold calling a girl you’ve never met and asking her to come straight over for sex (which is how convenient it is with a prostitute) then there’d be no value add for paying for it, but that’s not the case, getting laid takes TIME, you’re paying to save you that time, and puts her no more in a position of supremacy than the guy you pay to make your pizza, even though he might really enjoy making pizzas.

    Then we have a fundamental and intractable difference in values. I value sexual sincerity over time. But if men value their time at the expense of the woman’s sexual sincerity….

    Do you really find it so hard to believe that a prostitute would be sexually attracted to a client?

    The only way such a genuine sexual attraction can be verified is if all of her non-sexual/financial motivations are taken away from her. Abolish all non-sexual safety nets and you can then talk about her genuine sexual attraction. Otherwise, her attraction (if it exists) is merely incidental (and not easily verifiable), and therefore, makes my erection pretty much impossible.

    Especially if he’s the sort of guy that can get laid anyway and is just going there for the convenience of it. You realize there are plenty of guys that end up fucking them for free after a few visits etc. or where it turns into a relationship? It’s actually not as uncommon as you might think.

    I could not bring myself to date a woman who’s career is predicated mostly on numb sex, or sex with disgusting obese men. But I’ll take your word for it that some men end up dating these filthy women.

    If EVERY guy started paying for sex, you’d have to too, or go without.

    Correct! Why do you think I’m discouraging it? Altruism? LOL!

    Due to the supply and demand for sex men have to either pay for it with their time or money, sometimes both.

    Yes, but time always buys you her sexual sincerity. Money only sometimes does. And even when it does, it’s not necessarily verifiable unless you transition into the free route with her.

    Just depends on the market, some places it takes less time/money (eg. Colombia), other places it takes more (eg. Toronto). This is due to local market supply being offered by the women (either paid or ‘unpaid’ through dating etc.) and demand by the men, as well as male/female ratio’s etc

    Why do you think I love this community which tries to turn betas into alphas?

    If there are 5x as many young attractive women as men and they were all willing to have sex very quickly, then it would take very little time to get laid. However the more unfavourable the conditions are for the men, the more time it takes. So perhaps a more accurate statement is ‘Local dating market conditions when highly unfavourable to men contribute to a culture of prostitution, chivalry, gold digging and traditional conservatism (at least where it’s concerned with male/female relations)’

    I’ll buy that. But conscious encouragement/discouragement and shaming/lack of shaming also plays a role.

    If society was more open and accepting of prostitution (particularly people like yourself), then those issues in the sex industry wouldn’t exist, just like child labor and sweat shop conditions no longer exist (for the most part) in the first world, because it would be just another legitimate industry with laws etc. that properly govern it and the working conditions allowed within it.

    Not sure if I buy this. The porn industry is a perfectly legal and legitimate business, but much of it is extremely seedy and predicated upon the abuse and torture of the female (gagging porn, herpes in the eye socket, and all kinds of fucked up shit). I agree though that legalization will solve some of those problems. So it’s not if people like me were more accepting that would solve the problems. Rather it’s if more people were to join me in calling for it’s legalization (which I do believe in) that at least some positive difference could be made. But legalizing it is not the same thing as culturally accepting it.

     

  86. I would also like to see BD do a blog about this,  how he can sniff out a dead end lead

    You can’t sniff out a dead lead, it at least not in any systematic way.

    All you do is follow my process:

    1. A one-hour first date; spend less than $20.

    2. Follow up 24 hours later, pitch second date at you place.

    3. Have sex on second date at her place.

    If she’s a dead lead, you’ll know pretty fast with that system, with minimum time/money wasted.

    And yes, I will have much more to say about this in a few weeks. Stay tuned.

  87. Outside of the need to lose virginity or truly obese/very ugly guys, I would generally agree with BD that there isn’t a need for younger guys to use a prostitute. It is simply not that hard to get sex for younger men and if they aren’t it’s because they either (1) are buying into ASD too much and not learning to see past that illusion, (2) are too afraid of rejection and aren’t building a proper immunity to overcome that fear, or (3) are insistent on getting women way above their league rather than adjusting to a reality-based standard. All three are bad things that it would be beneficial for a man to get over.

    But the real rub is here is older men. I actually agree with many of JOTB’s points and I think he is way past most men on truly and deeply understanding just how much bullshit most ASD shit is. If everyone universally refused to stop believing in female sexual purity and stopped valuing sex as a scarce resource, most men would be SHOCKED how easily women would give it up. I’m guessing JOTB had older sisters or very early sexual experiences that gave him these insights as I don’t think most men are ever going to be at that level of understanding just how much of the sexual marketplace disparity between men and women is caused by ASD — at least during the basic years of a woman’s fertility. If we’re talking that age range of roughly 15 to 45, men and women pair up and fuck pretty easily with a basic assortative matching system and females really aren’t that much more sexually “valuable” than men. That becomes especially obvious when you introduce alcohol to the equation (for which the entire point is to dissolve people’s social inhibitions), because once you do that, women and men act pretty much equally slutty and pair up easily with the hottest ones getting together and so on down the line. But this all goes out the window once you factor in older men.

    Most of the market “distortions” if you want to call it that, occur because older men are still interested in, willing to pay for, and competing with younger men for sexual access to young women. Of course JOTB doesn’t like it, he’s a young man and has no reason to pay. If an older man wasn’t willing to pay with financial incentives for a younger woman, younger men would always beat them out and older men would simply be left out of the market altogether, as older women are. But older men maintain that demand and are willing to pay, which ends up distorting the whole market by raising “prices” (cash or otherwise) for younger men too. In men went through menopause like women and their testicles fell off at age 45, most of these market disparities would vanish (not entirely but mostly) and men would no longer be expected to “pay” in any way for sex, whether through commitment or cash . I realize there are still some distortions because women get pregnant and men don’t, but most of that is no longer relevant with modern birth control and technology. An attractive 18 year old man does not really have any more or less “market value” than an attractive 18 year old woman so long as they are restricted to a marketplace of only other 18 year olds. The issue is that he now has to compete with rich older men and because of the internet an attractive 18 year old woman has offers from thousands/millions of them without anyone finding out.

    So it is natural for younger guys to resent older men for distorting the sexual marketplace with money in that way. It is also natural for older women who are dependent upon extracting resources from men to resent it, though I’m not sure they would care very much if their own resources were secure (just a guess — I would imagine many post-menopausal women would be happy to not have to have sex again if their lifestyle and money were guaranteed to them, though there’s so much taboo around this topic that it’s only a guess). Thus I find that most young men are naturally averse to prostitution because they probably realize, on a limbic if not conscious level, that prostitution just provides a way for older men to out-compete them and raise the price of sex.

    Cash for sex benefits young women and old men. It’s to the detriment of young men and old women. Considering that old men have controlled our political system, it’s initially curious that prostitution is illegal, but you have to factor in the fact that keeping it illegal benefits married men because it makes it less likely that they’ll be discovered. If prostitution is legal then the prostitute can easily threaten to expose the man, so an established married man would prefer to keep it illegal because it ensures discretion by the prostitute.

    Most young women would have zero problem with prostitution if it wasn’t for social shame, taboo, and sanctions. Most young women would actually much prefer to have sex for money than almost any other job — though they will not admit this. If prostitution became publicly respected or at least not entirely shamed, there would quickly be vicious competition by women to get into that field. Oh wait, that has already happened, see the Kardashians and basically all young women making a living by being selling actual or apparent sexual allure and availability in LA.

    In fact, as forms of legal prostitution, like sugar babies, become more common, I can imagine a near future where virtually all young women who are attractive do this, and young men just accept that their girlfriend’s do this to supplement their income and pay down student loans. And older wives just accept that their husbands no longer pester them for sex and they don’t have to get a divorce and they can keep their assets together. Oh wait, once again, that is already happening in expensive cities, everyone is just pretending that it isn’t. A young woman is about as likely to be publicly honest about her blackmarket sex for perks business as a man is to publish his web browsing history for the public.

    Anyway, I can appreciate what JOTB is saying in the realm of the marketplace for youngish men and women, I just think it totally breaks down once you factor in older men. I certainly agree with him entirely about the highest-price prostitutes (stay at home wives to affluent men) being the most self-protecting cartel.

    Also, I have always thought that the scariest moment in a Vegas escort’s life must be those few seconds between when she knocks on the hotel room door and the dude answers it. Could be a fairly good-looking youngish married guy that she would be happy to do it with for free, or it could be an obese smelly nightmare that will require copious drugs to forget. I would think they would charge a sliding scale. Can it possibly be the case that the former guy gets charged the same as the latter?? Once again, that would mean the more attractive guys are having their prices jacked up by the older and less attractive guys because the prostitute is averaging it out to charge a flat rate for all. Or do they make you submit photos beforehand? I am curious how it works. I would imagine that they are wary of taking on new customers and would always prefer a repeat known quantity so they know where to set the rate.

    I would also guess that looking at the market dynamics of male-to-male prostitution would make most of the realities much more clear and get rid of people’s sentimental/taboo/religious biases on the question. Like for instance, does *anyone* actually care if adult male prostitution is legal, except perhaps for poor older gay men?

    BD’s philosophy is generally sound that people should not get themselves too used to shortcuts because it will make doing the work that much more difficult, if and when the shortcut isn’t available. However, I totally understand why a high earner would find it more efficient to pay instead of spending time and effort. It’s like anything else…it’s very hard to stay motivated to keep oneself in “fighting shape” for anything…whether it’s sex or a job or money or a real fight… if you don’t have to.

  88. Could be a fairly good-looking youngish married guy that she would be happy to do it with for free, or it could be an obese smelly nightmare that will require copious drugs to forget. I would think they would charge a sliding scale. Can it possibly be the case that the former guy gets charged the same as the latter?? Once again, that would mean the more attractive guys are having their prices jacked up by the older and less attractive guys because the prostitute is averaging it out to charge a flat rate for all. Or do they make you submit photos beforehand? I am curious how it works. 

    Not sure about other places. But over here the guy would pay the same but probably get a much different service. I’ve had hookers over here in the past tell me they sometimes get ridiculously good looking guys coming to see them. Or even famous people or sports stars etc. They will often spend way longer with guys like this than they paid for. Or offer them really good deals to come back again etc. Or even get into semi-fuck buddy type arrangements. eg. pay for one hour. Get three hours sex plus a dinner date etc.

  89. Just a short comment.

    BD puts sugar daddy/baby relationships into paid sex category. Hugh Hefner’s non monogamous lifestyle
    definitely involves some sugar daddy stuff from
    launching their model careers to paying for boob
    and nose jobs.

    Apart from this site, in real life, I have yet to see a
    SINGLE relationship with 20+ age difference that does
    not involve monetary donations from the older man.

    Oh, playboy Hugh is having orgies with women 60+
    years younger (40+ years younger than his daughter), and seems outcome independent and very
    happy. He does have a harem though

  90. @ Marty  Yup, all those guys are paying for the guaranteed discretion and thus I would think they would actively prefer that it be illegal. A prostitute isn’t going to come after you with baby mama drama or trying to expose you to your wife or whatever. Those are the true “paying her to go away” cases.

    Still, I would think for regular guys they would charge differential rates.

    OTOH, I used to be a topless dancer and many of us used to HATE when young, good-looking guys would show up as customers (which luckily was rare) because it was so embarrassing to have to dance for a “real” guy that you might consider dating in real life. It’s hard to treat a guy like that as a customer because you care what he thinks of you. With older guys it was way, way easier to keep it transactional and to treat them like a mark you’re eliciting money from,  and there was no self-consciousness or worrying what they thought of you. It seriously used to upset me when cute guys my own age would come in because I cared what they thought and that screwed up the whole job aspect of it because suddenly I was worried about their opinion instead of being worried about getting as much cash in the shortest time as possible. That said, dancing around without your top off is a very far cry from putting someone’s dick in your mouth and I can’t even imagine giving oral sex to someone you find physically repulsive and I would think they would charge WAY higher rates to do so with guys that they find gross.

    I mean, imagine if you were a prostitute servicing women with just oral sex. Wouldn’t you charge a lot more…like as in a million times more, to service a fat 60 year old lady than an attractive one????

  91. @JOTB

    I can’t go through and respond to all of that it would just take me too long, but I can say this.

    You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the sexual market works, which for someone that likes to think they are redpill is unfortunate. To truly understand it you probably have to date and experience all forms of sex with all forms of women, including average looking women, supermodel tier women and paid for women. Even BD has paid for sex.

    What I keep trying to beat into everyone’s heads is, the sexual market is a FREE MARKET. And all women have an ask price (largely pinned to their looks) and the men who want them set the bid price, obviously as low as possible based on supply/demand and what they can offer (looks, height, status, money, lifestyle, charm etc.)

    The market isn’t completely efficient (google ‘Efficient-market hypothesis’, although online dating has certainly made it considerably more efficient, just like ebay did for retail pricing), so you can still find some value with some girls and others who are overcharging. Eg. a young super hot girl that will have sex first date is great value, a 35yo+ with faded looks who demands 3+ dates before sex is perhaps overvaluing herself.

    What this means is that, depending on the quality of girl you want, and the market demand for her, paying (in some sense of the word) might be a necessity, and it’s not just the ‘supermodels’ that I sometimes date that can demand high prices, because I actually have dated famous international catwalk models that have been on the covers of magazines AND have also dated very plain looking women, even some chubby ones. I’ve even done so in a few major world cities, therefore I have a very good understanding of ‘market price’ based on her relative value which actually varies from city to city.

    What this means is that, while I can pitch a 7/10 sex and nothing more (not even a date) and eventually find one who will go for it, it would be much harder to find an 8/10 down for that, and near impossible to find a 9+/10 down for that.

    So consider this, does this mean that if I have to take an 8/10 out for drinks and potentially dinner she’s less sexually attracted to me than the 7/10 that came straight over and hopped on my dick? Does this mean that the 9/10 I had to take out on 3 dates, including drinks and 2 fancy dinners was less sexually attracted to me than the 6/10 that blew me in the bathroom of a nightclub? What about the perfect 10 stunner head turner model that could have practically any guy she wanted who I had to take out AND give a gift to?

    The hotter the girl, the more offers she has from high value men. This means I have to meet the market rate, unless I get lucky and find a great deal, which is rarer nowadays thanks to the internet making the market more efficient. If she has 20 other men that she’s sexually attracted to all hitting her up for a date, she’s going to go with the guy offering her the best deal, imagine that, if she’s really hot she can actually have sex with a guy she’s attracted to anyway AND get paid for it!

    Paying for sex isn’t binary, it’s not just paid and unpaid sex. It’s a spectrum, where on one end you have the purely transactional p4p and on the other end you have guys giving girls what they want to meet the going market rate.

    You seem to think that as soon as a girl is demanding more for sex she is no longer sexually attracted to the man she’s having that sex with, this is not necessarily the case, she’s just demanding what she knows she can get.

     

  92. @KryptoKate

    men and women pair up and fuck pretty easily with a basic assortative matching system and females really aren’t that much more sexually “valuable” than men.

    Wrong. They don’t ‘pair up’, Some men command multiple women, many men go without. Females are more valuable as a sexual commodity because there are less women at birth, it’s a specific age group of women that command all the attention and women produce way less eggs than men produce sperm.

    The result on female behavior of that last point is that women have a much lower sex drive on average than men (please note the ON AVERAGE), this is how nature intended it, because it makes them more sexually selective. Hence leading to the first problem of a few high value and high sex drive men monopolizing the sex of multiple women.

    Most of the market “distortions” if you want to call it that, occur because older men are still interested in, willing to pay for, and competing with younger men for sexual access to young women.

    No, it occurs because men have a much higher sex drive on average than women.

    women and men act pretty much equally slutty 

    Wrong. Women on average have a much lower sex drive than men, it’s NOT ASD. Study after study has shown this, people that have undergone sex changes and taken the hormonal drugs attest to this (both ways), believing otherwise is believing in feminist propaganda.

    I realize there are still some distortions because women get pregnant and men don’t, but most of that is no longer relevant with modern birth control and technology.

    No, it’s very relevant, because it’s not a conscious decision, the manifestation of this in a females behavior is her lower sex drive and her propensity to date the highest value male possible and willingness to share him with others (though of course she’d prefer not to), as opposed to ‘pairing up’ with a lower value mate that is more ‘on her level’ and having him all to herself.

    Could be a fairly good-looking youngish married guy that she would be happy to do it with for free, or it could be an obese smelly nightmare that will require copious drugs to forget. I would think they would charge a sliding scale. Can it possibly be the case that the former guy gets charged the same as the latter??

    Yes. This is how it works. The more attractive guys actually subsidize the sex for the less attractive guys by paying the same. This is changing with the advent of SD websites, where young women are much more willing to have sex with very attractive guys on there for very little and will charge a much higher rate to less attractive men.

    @Marty

    Not sure about other places. But over here the guy would pay the same but probably get a much different service. I’ve had hookers over here in the past tell me they sometimes get ridiculously good looking guys coming to see them. Or even famous people or sports stars etc. They will often spend way longer with guys like this than they paid for. Or offer them really good deals to come back again etc. Or even get into semi-fuck buddy type arrangements. eg. pay for one hour. Get three hours sex plus a dinner date etc.

    Typical Australia… And yes, I’ve done all of the above, even converted some to completely free FB‘s.

  93. @ Marty  Yup, all those guys are paying for the guaranteed discretion and thus I would think they would actively prefer that it be illegal. A prostitute isn’t going to come after you with baby mama drama or trying to expose you to your wife or whatever. Those are the true “paying her to go away” cases.
    Still, I would think for regular guys they would charge differential rates.

    It’s all legal over here and discretion is still a major thing. Probably even more important when its legal. The prices are advertised online now for all to see. So girls wouldn’t get away with differential rates. Probably 80% of their customers are married, out of shape beta’s so it wouldn’t be good for business. Plus there are forums where they would get a bad name and lose business as well if they are not careful.

    Thailand is totally different. Really hot younger girls will just flat out refuse to go with a guy they don’t like. Or quote a ridiculously high price. It little bit of game actually works quite well in that environment even though its p4p.

  94. The prices are advertised online now for all to see. So girls wouldn’t get away with differential rates. Probably 80% of their customers are married, out of shape beta’s so it wouldn’t be good for business. Plus there are forums where they would get a bad name and lose business as well if they are not careful.

    They offer the cheaper rates (sometimes ‘free’) if you approach them elsewhere, or see them a few times and they take a liking to you and you’re good at negotiating. Or in some instances take them out for dinner, get to know them etc.

    But you’re already aware of that it seems.

    I’ve seen plenty of them listed on the forum I’m sure you’re referring to for cents on the dollar or ‘free’. To be honest though it’s probably just less of a headache to pay them their listed rate and be done with it.

  95. Hey Kate!

    I’m guessing JOTB had older sisters or very early sexual experiences that gave him these insights

    It wasn’t early sexual experiences at all. It was early social experiences. I was fortunate enough to grow up in a very sex-positive and sexually enlightened upper middle class suburb. The kids I went to middle school and high school with were very sexually liberal and most of their parents would buy them condoms and do other things to get their kids laid. My own parents were pretty moderate, but they still didn’t stand in my way or anything.

    I didn’t lose my virginity until age 15, which all of my friends designated as “super late” and enjoyed teasing me about it, saying things like “it’s about time” and other shit that made me feel like a loser. But even as late as age 13, I knew all of these truths because girls would open up to me due to my complete lack of slut shaming (yes, even in a sex-positive paradise, there was still slut shaming). Girls who weren’t attracted to me and put me in the friend zone would tell me stories that would ruin their lives and cause their boyfriends to dump them if they found out. I was the virgin nerd who knew more about the sex lives of the girls at the school than even the most popular jocks knew.

    I violated the rules of discretion only once: When I was in 8th grade (age 14), my best friend at the time told me about how he had a foursome with his girlfriend and his other friend’s girlfriend (the four of them partner switched on the same bed). Like a virgin dumbass, I thought it would be cool to talk about it at lunch (when we were surrounded by the other kids). Holy shit! My friend denied the whole thing, told everyone I’m just being a lying smartass, grabbed me by my ear, and took me to a more private place to essentially rip my head off.

    At the time, I was very confused because I failed to see what was wrong or embarrassing about what they did. It’s not like any of the other kids are religious or whatever, and sex is supposed to be good, right? He explained how his girl would lose all her friends if they ever found out, blah, blah, blah. This was my first contact with the “not everyone is sex-positive” idea, outside religious nutcases. It was then that I vowed to be as discrete as I could which, during high school (in an even more sex-positive neighborhood), allowed me to learn a lot more from the girls.

    I think I mentioned this before, but my second girlfriend in my sophomore year (age 16) told me how she lost her virginity at age 12 to her boyfriend after her 12 year old friend lost hers to her own boyfriend. But she was scared, so her 12 year old friend offered to have sex with her own boyfriend on her bed at the same time to make her feel more comfortable, and whenever she would cry or whatever, her friend would hold her hand or hug her, and then the four of them would continue having sex. I thought that was a beautiful way to lose her virginity. She was 16 when she told me this, but she remembered every detail.

    Oh and by the way, while I was dating her when we were both 16, her 13 year old sister was banging her math teacher for good grades. I was exposed to so much crazy shit back then. I won’t even get into my experiences with the sister later on.

    So yeah, compared to this – pay for it? Ha! What is this? Russia?

    Thus I find that most young men are naturally averse to prostitution because they probably realize, on a limbic if not conscious level, that prostitution just provides a way for older men to out-compete them and raise the price of sex.

    Correct. Except I was not thinking about this in terms of age (although I guess you do have a point). For me, it isn’t older men per se, but just regular men who are raising the price of sex (for me) by teaching women that they have a right to demand it. Spoiling women has always been something that I felt very queasy about. Artificially inflating the sexual marketplace by offering cash incentives, thus fucking up the natural basis for attraction and a true sexual meritocracy based on lust, has always pissed me off.

    In fact, as forms of legal prostitution, like sugar babies, become more common, I can imagine a near future where virtually all young women who are attractive do this, and young men just accept that their girlfriend’s do this to supplement their income and pay down student loans.

    My worst nightmare. Please don’t scare me like this. I need my sleep.

    I used to be a topless dancer

    Puke! Gross. Sorry to hear that.

     

  96. I absolutely agree with Black Dragon. In fact, if one can get laid for free, one wouldn’t even consider paying for hookers. Why would anyone pay for fake affection that’s not genuine? You know you’re actually financially incentivizing a woman to act like she wants to fuck you when she really loathes you, right? The only logical explanation therefore is that men who pay for sex only do so out of circumstances, not choice. Paying for sex is a lose-lose proposition: you get poorer, and you get duty starfish sex from a woman who secretly looks down on and disrespects you for stooping so low just to get some. It’s no secret that escorts have zero respect for their clients.

    Regardless of whatever excuses guys who hire escorts come up with, paying for sex is the ultimate white flag in a male’s sexual strategy. It’s an unequivocal acknowledgment of his sheer and utter inability to convince one woman — just one, out of 3.5 billion women in the world — to have sex with him. As a last-ditch attempt to get his dick wet, he literally bribes women to pretend to want to have sex with him, who would otherwise not even want to look at his direction.

    You can come up with cute defenses, like “I pay them to leave, not to fuck them” or “oh, you pay for sex either way,” but deep down inside these pathetic excuses for men know that paying for sex is not only beta behavior but also completely pedestalizing women. Beta males shower women with attention, gifts, dinners, dates, etc. in order to gain sexual access to a woman, but escort customers are on a whole different level of beta: they fork over cold hard-earned cash, thus pedestalizing pussy to the highest degree possible. We will never be caught dead paying for something we can get for free; it’s just the economic rationality in us as human beings.

    In any case, there’s a big difference between paying for dates vs. paying for sex. When you pay for a date, as beta as it is, the girl doesn’t owe you anything. She might choose to have sex with you afterwards, but that’s probably because she likes you enough to do that. She could just as easily bail after dinner, and in fact many of them do.

    When you pay for sex, you’re the source of an escort’s livelihood, her very survival. She’s contractually and morally obligated to fuck you, even if she’s totally disgusted by the idea, because her rent and bills depend on the income derived from losers like you. There’s a 100% guarantee that you’ll fuck her after paying her asking price. She’s not fucking you; no, she’s fucking the money. That’s where her interest and affection lie. She’s also desperate to survive.

    I can’t blame men who hire escorts for being in denial; it’s in our nature to hamster away our pathetic situation and reframe it as something good. It’s moreover even harder to not be defensive when confronted so bluntly by sexually-successful men (I myself have an organic n-count of 100+, and I’m not even thirty). But the truth is the truth, and no excuses you can come up with, no matter how cute, will bury the truth.

  97. @Alvin Tan:

    Amen brother! I agree with everything you said.

    I’ve been thinking a little more about this topic and Kryptokate summarized my feelings well, even though, as stated, I did not think of this in terms of “old men vs. young men.” Rather, I’ve always been a firm believer in sexual meritocracy and how no one should have sex who doesn’t sexually merit it. If you make a woman’s vagina wet, you merit sex. If you don’t, then you don’t. Only attractive men who can obtain sex naturally via the organic merits of lust should be having it.

    So what irks me the most about prostitution is that unattractive men are cheating the sexual meritocracy based on lust system, thus perverting natural intercourse based on joy, lust, and passion into an unnatural business transaction which simulates a natural and organic act.

    Again, this is unattractive men cheating the system of lust-based sexual meritocracy by using money as a dirty trick to get ahead of those with superior sexual merit. It’s the same reason I hate socialism (it’s the losers cheating). This is to the detriment of men like me with sexual merit, because these unattractive men, by bribing women for sex, are also spoiling them. This spoiled attitude eventually trickles down to me and other men with organic sexual merit.

    As Wolf said, if everyone paid for sex, I’d have to also. And from the perspective of the “pro-organic lust based sex” guys like me, we precisely want to lower the price of sex, not raise it, while maintaining its honest and natural integrity based on genuine attraction and lust.

    Normalizing hookers will have the opposite result and blur the line between organic lust based sex and artificial price-based professionalism/fakery, thus raising the price of sex dramatically and robbing it of its natural lust-based components (read: everything that makes it worth it). Fuck that! And fuck socialism too (which is based on the same dirty principle of cheating the merit based system).

     

  98.  In fact, if one can get laid for free, one wouldn’t even consider paying for hookers. 

    Really? I know a guy who is 32. Has been hard core gaming for 5 years now. Been on lots of RSD boot camps. Been to Vegas immersion etc. On avg he picks up 60 to 80 NEW girls a year plus fucks his old fuck buddies and previous girls as well. Not unusual for him to fuck a different girl every night 7 to 10 nights in a row.

    He’s an approach machine and is constantly approaching new girls day and night wherever he is. Zero approach anxiety.

    His organic n-count is closer to 1000 than 100.

    But he’s pretty well off financially and he still sometimes sees hookers. And he loves going to Thailand (and China, Taiwan, Korea, Hong Kong, …) and enjoying what happens over there.

    You guys really have ZERO idea of what really is happening out there. Live in your judgmental ego driven fantasies if you want.

    The good thing about BD and this site is that he is very methodical and real with the way he looks at these things. Will it make you long term happy or not? That’s what important!! 🙂

  99. Let me share my “paying for sex” experience and why it was the best time and money investment I did for myself.
    Let me start by briefing up my sexual life:
    As most high-school guys in my country, back then, I started having sex around the age of 17. I had sex with 3-4 girls, all NSA, nothing special to tell there.
    At the age of 18 I got a girlfriend. We didn’t have intercourse (she was a virgin) but we had plenty of manual and oral sex. That lasted for about a year, and then we broke up.
    After a period of “forced” celibacy, I got the second girlfriend. We had great sex, we dated for 3 years and got married.
    We had a decent sex life, 3-4 times a week and it was good, for all I knew.
    Ten years and three kids later things starteda to deteriorate. Sex became more rare, our relationship became worse and worse.
    After a few years of this, by now I was in my late 30’s, I accidentally met that girlfriend of mine, the one I didn’t have intercourse with, and we had a short affair. Naturally I got caught.
    Me and my wife decided to overcome the crisis and reclaim our marriage. We went back to less-than-par sex life (1-2 times a month) and things never went back on track (no surprise there…)
    A few years later, in my mid-40’s, our disagreements got worse and I moved out. It took about two weeks for her to “pull” me back home.
    I was a miserable beta but totally helpless.
    In my early 50’s, after 30 years of marriage, we decided to divorce.
    For about a year, during the divorce process, I knew she had PI’s watching me, so that she could gain point in the divorce, so I didn’t have any sex during that time.
    When the divorce was finalized, I tried to date women. Not knowing any better, I dated within my age range or slightly younger (2-3 years gap).
    As I know now, those women had very high ASD, and I was totally Outcome-Dependent: I wanted sex!
    That’s the main thing I was looking for. My neediness and AFC projected all over the place and none of my efforts got any results. Out of 12-13 dates, I got ONE makeout session only, and that was after 4-5 dates with that woman.
    I realized my neediness for sex was the issue.
    I bought a ticket to Thailand. I stayed there for almost 3 months, during which I had sex with local girls. 99% of them were bar-girls (i.e. prostitutes). I fulfilled all (or most) of my sexual fantasies and wishes: I had threesomes, foursomes, an 8-some (me with 7 girls), anal/oral of whatever nature I wanted. Along these 3 months, I had sex with over 200 different girls. It surely cost me a lot but I don’t regret it.
    When I came back to my country, I tried dating again. This time I was sexually fulfilled, my OI was solid and I could focus on the women themselves rather than on how to f**k them.
    My results were MUCH better, BY FAR!
    I found out about BD material only recently and I am working my ass to get to the Alpha 2.0 lifestyle in finance, freedom, happiness and, naturally, women and sex.
    So, my “pay-for-sex” experience was the best time/money investment I did for myself.

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