first date advice, first online date, online dating advice, meaning of an open relationship, alpha male traits

I have discussed this topic peripherally several times but never addressed it head-on. Today’s the day.

Over the years, on this blog and other blogs and forums, I have seen two extreme sides of this issue. I have seen men scream from the rooftops that paying hookers (or sugar babies) for sex is the only valid way to go. Learning dating skills, “wasting your time playing women’s game,” and “putting up with women’s crap” is for suckers and pussies. Just pay for it and get on with your life, they say.

On the flip side, I have seen men get extremely upset at even the mention of maybe paying women to have sex. Only complete pussy betas do this, they say, and paying for sex is not only harmful to you, but harmful to society and men everywhere. Other men on this side of this issue scream that paying for sex “isn’t game,” and therefore, you’re not a real man (or a real Alpha) if you do it.

In other words, whether it’s a good, bad, or neutral thing, paying for sex is not an issue you’ll see any consensus on, and I expect a brawl in the comments about this (which is fine).

How I Form Opinions

Unlike most people, when I form opinions, I start with facts and long-term happiness as my baseline, rather than politics, philosophy, ego, or even my personal preferences. I ignore all that crap and I ask three questions whenever forming an opinion:

1. Will this make me long-term happy? That means happy today and happy 5-10 years from now, as opposed to unhappy today, or happy today but unhappy years down the road.

2. Is it realistic, doable and probable within real-world facts, realities, trends, and limitations? I have to make sure I’m not operating on my opinions or the way I want things to be, but rather how things actually are. (This is why I have so many disagreements with both left-wingers and right-wingers, both of whom are often stuck viewing the world as they think it should be, rather than how it actually is.)

3. Does this conflict with anything in my personal Code of Conduct? This usually means, does it require me to hurt or lie to anyone?

If the answers are yes, yes, and no, then I go for it, completely irrelevant of Societal Programming, or what I think “should” be the “best” way to do something, or what is best for “society.” None of these things are relevant to my long-term happiness as an Alpha Male 2.0 who is largely detached from the system. As I’ve said for many years, emotions are not a good way to make decisions, and societies usually proceed in their own direction regardless of your opinion or mine.

When Is Paying for Sex Okay? If Ever?

Now that you know how I arrive at my opinions, here’s my opinion on if/when it’s okay to pay for sex. In my opinion, it’s perfectly acceptable to pay for sex provided you have met two mandatory criteria. If you have not met these two criteria, then it is not okay for you to pay for sex, and doing so is very harmful for you.

These two criteria are:

1. You already know how to get laid reasonably quickly and with at least a reasonably cute women, without having to pay for it (other than the usual dating expenses; things like gas/mass transit, parking, and maybe paying for a drink or two).

2. You make enough money and have little enough debt and monthly expenses where paying for it does not damage your finances and long-term financial plans and goals in any way.

If you meet both of those criteria (and I mean BOTH, not one or the other, BOTH), and want to pay for sex, then go ahead. I have no problem with it and I don’t think doing so will harm you. If you haven’t met both criteria yet, then paying for sex not only makes you somewhat of a loser, but it also harms both your self-esteem and your financial future.

I shall explain all this, but before I do, I know that some in the comments will attempt to put forth the view point that “all men” pay for “all sex” somehow. This is a topic for another day and I will ignore all such comments, at least for now. Today I’m talking about truly transactional sex; literarily handing a woman cash (or the equivalent) so she will have sex with you, in a scenario where if you don’t hand her this cash, she won’t have sex with you.

You Must Already Know How to Get Laid for Free

The Alpha 2.0 sexual baseline is when you have reached a point where you are able to go out into the world, cold, and have sex with at least two new women within four weeks of starting from scratch, and these women are at least “cute” to you. Once you’ve reached that point, if you then choose to start paying for sex because you’re busy and it takes less time, it’s less of a hassle, you have other areas in your life you want to focus on, your sex drive has declined a little, or whatever else, then I honestly don’t see a problem with it.

The reason is because you already know that you can go out and get laid without paying for it. You know internally that you’re paying for it just because you want to save time or effort, not because that’s the only way you can get laid. This knowledge prevents your self esteem and inner frame from being damaged. You could get laid with hot babes without paying for it if you wanted to, and you have before, but you’re only introducing money into the equation because you’d rather not take the time.

I’ve said before that even if you’re at my level and can get laid whenever you want with $0-$27 spent within three hours grand total face time, you can still knock those three hours down to 10-15 minutes if you just go to a sugar daddy site and pay for it. While philosophically I have a huge problem with exchanging money for sex (I have to give you money so I can give you the attention you crave and make you feel good? Huh?), I have to admit that within real-world realities, saving that kind of time can make sense if you’re a woman-experienced, very busy, high-income guy.

I’ve already conducted several experiments on sugar daddy sites myself, and was reasonably successful. I also have an entire chapter on the two types of sugar daddy game in my Online Dating Manual. (The two types are “pay for it” game and “don’t pay for it” game; the latter works but takes much more time and effort.) Since I already match the two criteria above, I have strongly considered the pay option going forward to more easily maintain FBs.

I have to admit that I still don’t like it philosophically, but again, that’s not how I make decisions. I have to admit that the guys who say paying for it saves a lot of time and effort do have a point, and since I’m all about time management, and quality time management makes me very long-term happy, I have to give credence to it.

Here’s where the problem begins, though. All the above arguments I just made about how it saves time are often used by men who don’t know how to get laid. These men happily pay for prostitutes or sugar babies and brag that they’re saving all kinds of time and effort. Just one problem; these guys know they can’t get laid any other way. They have to pay for it in order to get it.

Just imagine for a minute that you knew you couldn’t get laid (or get laid quickly, or get laid with someone hot) unless you paid for it. How would that make you feel? What would that do to your confidence? Self-esteem? Frame?

Let’s take it a step further. How would this make you feel about women? How would this make you feel about relationships?

I can tell you for a fact that you would feel like shit, about all of those things. Your self-esteem would take a serious hit and you’d have a skewed, negative view of women and relationships in general, at least eventually (exactly how long-time strippers end up having a skewed, negative view of men).

In other words, if you must pay for sex in order to have sex, this is very bad. You’re a beta. Long-term, you’re going to feel like shit if you don’t already. Instead, learn the skills so that you can have sex without paying for it and if you still want to go back and pay for it at that point, then go ahead, since doing it won’t harm you once you’re at that level.

Of course, that’s only provided you also meet the second criteria…

You Must Be Able to Easily Afford It… Emphasis on “Easily”

The second criteria you must meet before you start paying for sex in a way that doesn’t harm you is that you must have:

1. A reasonably high income.

2. Comparatively low monthly expenses.

3. Little or zero debt.

If you make $175,000 a year, have zero debt, reasonably low monthly expenses, healthy long-term investments/savings, and continue to fund those monthly, then if you want to throw around $100-$300 a few times a month to get laid, go ahead. I see no problem with this (as long as you meet criteria number one above).

If you make $45,000 a year and have the typical amount of debt, and you’re spending $100-$300 to get laid on even a semi-regularly basis, then with all due respect, you’re a fucking idiot and you’re probably headed for bankruptcy. Use that extra cash to build your skills, build your income, and pay down debt, not to pay hookers. If you want to get laid, learn the skills, practice, and get to at least an intermediate level at dating/pickup. It’s not that hard.

I mention this because I’ve seen a growing number of mid or even low-income men pay hookers or chicks on sugar daddy sites on a regular basis. No! You are severely damaging your long-term future financial position if you do this. Learn how to get laid for free and pay for it later once your income is higher or your debt is lower (ideally zero).

The same goes for you high-income guys who have shitloads of debt or who have huge monthly expenses because of things like a high lifestyle, alimony, or child support. I don’t care if you make $200,000 a year if you are paying $4500 a month in alimony/child support and your house payment is $3200 a month. Fucking hell, dude. Stop paying for sex! You can’t afford it! You need to be paying down your debt and funding your retirement. Learn how to get laid for free or pay off your debts and alimony and move into a cheaper house, then pay for it.

The money that goes to paying for sex cannot be the same money you would normally use to pay down debts or to put away for long-term savings. If you make enough money and have low enough expenses to where you can easily fund these things and pay for sex occasionally, then fine.

You Should Do These Two Things Anyway

As I already talked about here and here, learning how to get laid for free and getting your income up to a decent level should be something you should be doing anyways, regardless of any women or sex in your life. So, what I call “criteria” here are actually two of the baseline requirements for long-term masculine happiness regardless of women.

Regardless, my viewpoint stands. I don’t like the concept of paying for sex, but if you already know how to get sex without paying for it, and you can easily afford it, and paying for sex frees up your time to pursue other important tasks in your life, then, and only then, paying for sex is probably fine.

85 Comments on “When Is It Okay To Pay for Sex?

  1. Another scenario is this.

    Imagine a, let’s say, 6 months dry spell. While you’re actively working on your dating skills to get sex with “civilians” and provided that your income and debt levels are fine, I’d say it’s ok to go for a hooker say… once a month.

    It’s a way of making the transition process easier, but one has to make up his mind that it is a temporary solution, a patch.

  2. I have no problem with it and I don’t think doing so will not harm you.

    I think there is a typo. Didn’t you mean:
    I have no problem with it and I don’t think doing so will harm you.

  3. I think there is one very important factor not being addressed in this otherwise good article and that is age differences. I know I can have sex with women my age without much effort. I’m 49, on ok cupid and last week met a 105 pound cute asian woman 49 years old. We got along, it was happy hour cost me $25, she liked me and I could have closed with her that day or soon after, I don’t think really any issue. I also could do that every week with women close to my age because its available.

    However doing the same thing with women under 30 is just not available like that. So it makes sense to help out with her bills, show her a way better time, whatever to have a good time for myself. I’m on Tinder, seeking arrangement etc and young women are of course available for money in some form. It wont break any bank, were talking about a couple hundred for a great time. I look at money as a problem solver and I can make more, so go for it.

  4. Hello BD, this is a very timely post for me. I have been following you for about a year now, with resounding success : stable happy life, a network of good women. AM 2.0 does work when properly implemented! Thank you!

    I am divorced, 44, good stable job, excellent physical shape. No problem seducing, etc.

    Until a couple of weeks ago I had never paid for sex. I was curious what it would be like so I hired an escort. Beautiful young woman, all that. Well, I just couldn’t perform! This never happens to me. It’s pretty powerful stuff what our minds do to us.

    I am convinced the reason I could not get hard for her was because there was no seduction, I did not really turn her on, and from my conditioning over the years since puberty, I only ever touched and kissed women who really wanted me to do those things. So I did not panic.

    Pigheadedly, I went for another “test” with a different one. And this woman I felt was enjoying what she was doing, and I could have normal sex with her.

    So…If your moral framework allows paying for sex, I think normally built men who behave like humans will probably not find it worthwhile, since they can find women who are actually turned on at the prospect of having sex with them, which makes the experience much more pleasurable and connected for me. I accept many men might just not care about this aspect and then prostitutes would make sense, like a step above the fleshlight maybe?

  5. I would like to post some opinions I have about black dragon in general.

     

    first of all this guy is a talented writer.  he is intelligent and in general he is correct of many of his opinions about the failure of traditional marriage and long term happiness that does not often correlate with marriage.

    but there are problems with this guy that I want to bring up.

    first of all, I think this guy is incredibly selfish.  what he is saying is that he can form relationships with women and his definition of happiness with them is based only on whether he is having sex with them.  as long as he is fucking a girl, he considers that an accomplishment.  he cares not whether this person in his life is having sex with other men, as long as he gets his pussy regularly from her, he is long term happy.  he also states that 94% of his ex girlfriends eventually come  back to him to have more sex after they have left him for a while, obviously after they have broken up with another guy.

    so what is he really saying….he is saying he forms relationships with sluts basically.  girls who, like him, cannot or do not like forming long term relationships, probably, like him due to serious personality flaws.  girls who fuck on the first date.  girls who fuck lots of guys regularly.

    most women want a long term relationship, yet 94% of his women eventually come back to him, meaning they are such losers that they cannot fulfill their desires of a long term relationship.  meaning they have serious problems .   meaning they are probably stupid, low class sluts , low on ethics and high on drugs.

    I am sorry, but their is no other way to interpret this guys idea of the perfect life.  basically, let me go online, find girls who will fuck me quickly, continue to see them even though they are fucking other guys, and I will focus on me and my selfish happiness, and as long as I get pussy, I could care less what these bitches do.

    so then, what is really so different between what he advocates and fucking prostitutes.  basically he finds sluts that will fuck for free, probably not as good looking as some college kid who sells herself secretly for tuition money or as exists here in Houston some incredibly hot Hispanic or Asian girls, 18 or 19 years old and almost model like in appearance who you can easily get for $200.

    so when black dragon says he can easily get women to have sex with him, he is basically saying he can easily get sluts to have sex with him, he has mastered the art of getting sluts and that in of itself is an accomplishment.  i have gone online and tried that route, and the girls there are usually un attractive, fat, or transsexuals.  they re not star material.  in Houston anyway, you get incredibly high quality girls for little money looking at online prostitute sites like preferred 411 for example.  the difference in quality of the girls is day and night over online dating sites.

    Mr dragon is a writer and he makes his money selling books, so he is not about to advocate going out and getting gorgeous girls and paying for sex.  that’s too easy and does not sell books.  so he comes up with this alpha 2 lifestyle thing that in the real world is ridiculous.  there are many successful guys with money out there(who could easily get a gorgeous young prostitute) who are so fucking old and or ugly that they cannot just go and pick up girls easily and he has to know this.  his methods will not work for them.

    so, my advice is this and some day i will write my own book and how to really be happy…..get married to a high class girl who will make a good mother.  make sure she is the faithful type and despite what mr dragon says, there are millions of women out there who are not sluts, and who will remain devoted loving wives and will remain faithful to you.  if you are going crazy fucking the same woman even though you love her, have a secret meeting with a young gorgeous prostitute once in a while, the meeting will be quick and satisfying for both parties, you will always use a condom and she will make sure you do for her own safety.  you will not have to worry about her being discreet, i assure you she has as much to lose as you do.

    this system of mine is not perfect, but neither is mr dragons i assure you.

     

     

  6. Hey BD, It’s me again !

    In your ebook the Unchained Man 2.0 I found another typo error.

    P.220, first sentence under “Societally-Programmed Relationships

    “You to not create relationships because they are want you want, or because they are what will make you long-term happy.”

    Have a good one !

  7. @jOHN

    Ruh roh shagggy looks like we have a Tradcon manophere guy in the mix.  You covered all the usual tradcon points-we have slut shaming, screening for women, selfishness of Alpha 2.0, it’s al l about pussy with you guys, etc…

    Look man, BD makes not secret that he’s here to make money BUT that does not invalidate what he’s talking about.   I’d be curious to know more about your background-are you very religious for example?  Were you a hardcore player now looking to settle down? It’s not the 50’s anymore bud-what you’re talking about may have been true back then but just isn’t the reality we live n now.

    This lifestyle is far more open and honest than most traditional ones and I don’t see the issue as long as everyone is on the same page.  I know many girls that have had sex with me quickly but are not “sluts”.  They are good girls and come from good families-they just enjoy sex.

    Where you really went off the rails is talking about finding this “high class, good mother, forever faithful” woman, then turn around to say get a hooker when you get bored fucking her.  You claim it’s fine to cheat on this special angel with prostitutes but shame ALpha 2.0 for enjoying consensual sex with willing women.

    I’m sensing some self loathing with your comment and some deep societal programming about shameful sex.  Hence why I asked if you’re religious.  That would tilt you in a more conservative view of sex. Yes this system isn’t perfect but none are. It’s whatever works best with your personality in the real world, not some idealistic utopia or something totally unnatural to you.

  8. @John

    How exactly do you find high class women who aren’t sluts before you go into a mono relationship with them? And why would she be ok with you roaming with the prostitutes here and there? That’s cheating on your wife. And it’s not a true monogamous relationship by any standard.

    Now who’s to say this wonderful high class woman you’ve married doesn’t also cheat on you without you knowing?

    Your argument is flawed.

  9. there was no seduction, I did not really turn her on, and from my conditioning over the years since puberty, I only ever touched and kissed women who really wanted me to do those things

    So much this. Makes perfect sense to me and fits with my experience. I had sex with one prostitute, before I was 18. She actually wanted me, because I was young and good looking. She asked, “You’re fine as hell, what are you doing with me? Let me guess, you don’t get out much, do you?” This was….1988? and the words still sting but I get out plenty these days.

    And guys, don’t feed the troll.

  10. I have to admit that the guys who say paying for it saves a lot of time and effort do have a point

    I second this, and personally I also think there are ‘intermediate cases’ where you don’t have to fulfill both stated conditions in order for it to be okay to pay for sex. One example I’m thinking of is an MLTR + escorts arrangement. A guy with a moderate sex drive and a busy schedule can definitely afford, in my opinion, to have one (unpaid of course) nonmonogamous girlfriend and fuck escorts on the side, even if he doesn’t have a very high income. Personally I’d be happy with this, because while I’m fine with gaming potential MLTRs, gaming girls just because I wanna fuck has always disgusted me a little bit and does correspond to “playing the women’s game” as the article says. The more casual the sex is, the more “game” seems like an absurd OBW ritual unworthy of my time.

    @LG: that’s not a contradiction, just a particular case. Hookers can be really helpful for a late bloomer to lose his virginity and get familiar with sex less stressfully, it sort of removes the huge mental blocking that virgin men can have, which gets worse every year they still haven’t lost their v-card.

  11. @John:
    You are quick on the “slut” bomb. BD promotes complete honesty and does not call any woman a slut.
    You talk about “high quality girls” that can be had for “little money”, so those who go with you for free because you are attractive are sluts, and those who charge “little money” are high quality? I’m not sure I follow your logic. I do sense a lot of anger though.

    The “faithful type” ….Are you serious? All of us who got married to a “high class girl who will make a good mother” were convinced we were making the right choice and it would be forever, and she would be the “faithful type”.

    Many.. .(most?) got dumped because many (most?) women will get bored and divorce, irrespective of our personal quality as a husband and mate. BD offers a system that doesn’t try to change how people are. Rather, he proposes a model that uses the parameters of the real world, in which you can be happy, honest, free from pain, anger and disappointment, and you will leave the women in you life in better shape than you found them. No one loses, no one acts like a lying scumbag to get what he wants, and no one gets called a slut!

  12. One example I’m thinking of is an MLTR + escorts arrangement. A guy with a moderate sex drive and a busy schedule can definitely afford, in my opinion, to have one (unpaid of course) nonmonogamous girlfriend and fuck escorts on the side, even if he doesn’t have a very high income.

    I don’t know, man…..I almost think this would cross some wires. I mean, I think it is one thing for a woman you’re seeing to know you date (and fuck) other women. It would probably be a different thing in their mind if they knew the only other women you fucked were escorts.

    And…….when she LSTFTE’s you, you’re left with escorts.

    Plus, those of us digging out of titanic financial holes have no business paying escorts.

    That said, I feel the direction of your comment, and indeed 2 MLTR‘s is my goal.

  13. Imagine a, let’s say, 6 months dry spell. While you’re actively working on your dating skills to get sex with “civilians” and provided that your income and debt levels are fine, I’d say it’s ok to go for a hooker say… once a month.

    I don’t. For all the reasons I stated above. And you’ve set a negative precedent for yourself (“If I ever get a dry spell, no problem! I can just bang hookers…”)

    Of course, the real goal is to never have dry spells. I don’t.

    I think there is a typo.

    Fixed! Thank you!

    I think there is one very important factor not being addressed in this otherwise good article and that is age differences. I know I can have sex with women my age without much effort. I’m 49, on ok cupid and last week met a 105 pound cute asian woman 49 years old. We got along, it was happy hour cost me $25, she liked me and I could have closed with her that day or soon after, I don’t think really any issue. I also could do that every week with women close to my age because its available.

    However doing the same thing with women under 30 is just not available like that.

    1. It sounds like you might have met the two criteria I talked about (not sure), so if that’s the case, I don’t think you have a problem paying for it for younger women. Go right ahead if you really want to.

    2. Women under 30 are indeed available “like that” to men who are 49, for free. I’ll be your age in four years; I’ll still be having sex with women under 30, no problem (paid or free). There are many men on this very blog older than you who are doing the same.

    BD, do you mind sharing your personal Code of Conduct?

    Yes, I mind. Just as my Mission, it’s a personal thing. However, just like my Mission, everything in my Code would be pretty easy to guess to anyone who’s read my stuff for a long time (never get monogamous, never lie, never put myself in a situation where I have my freedom dramatically limited, etc).

    So…If your moral framework allows paying for sex, I think normally built men who behave like humans will probably not find it worthwhile, since they can find women who are actually turned on at the prospect of having sex with them, which makes the experience much more pleasurable and connected for me. I accept many men might just not care about this aspect and then prostitutes would make sense, like a step above the fleshlight maybe?

    Yes, in my sugar baby post (I think) I talked about how it felt very weird to me to have sex with a woman while knowing the only reason she was doing so was because she was getting paid. I don’t like that feeling. But many guys don’t care. It looks like some actually prefer it. As always, to each their own.

    As I said in the article, philosophically and emotionally I don’t like the concept of paying for sex, but morally I have no problem with it and logistically I have to admit it can have merit under certain conditions.

    I cant wait to see Blackdragons response to John

    There is no response to insanity. He’s wrapped himself in irrationality and there’s no helping him at this point. He’s a probably a young, inexperienced guy, likely suffering from some kind of depression, who has Disney fantasies about monogamy, and as such he as no facts, stats, or reason, just a lot of anger, personal attacks (that could easily be refuted if he read some of my past blog posts; not that it would change his mind), and lots guy-Disney. I feel sorry for him.

    I wish him the best. Likely someday, when he gets older, he’ll probably snap out of it. I just hope he doesn’t screw up his life too much in the meantime with things like divorce, breakups, and child custody battles.

    Hey BD, It’s me again !

    In your ebook the Unchained Man 2.0 I found another typo error

    Thank you! In the future, please email these to theonlyblackdragon@gmail.com so I can keep comment threads on-topic.

    Haven’t I seen you recommend to guys that can’t seem to lose their virginity, that they just go to a hooker already?

    Correct. I didn’t want to bring that up in the article because I thought it might create confusion, but yes, that’s the advice I give to virgins and I stand by it. Being a virgin is an extreme condition, an exception to the rule, and extreme conditions sometimes require extreme measures.

    To be clear though, I recommend a virgin see a hooker 2-4 times only, then get out there and get laid the normal way. There’s no need to see that hooker more than about four times.

    Wouldn’t prostitutes be more likely to have some STD?

    Maybe. Depends on many factors. Wear condoms, as always.

  14. when I form opinions, I start with facts and long-term happiness as my baseline, rather than politics, philosophy, ego, or even my personal preferences.

    I’ve said some dumb things on here before, and even “punished” myself for saying some really stupid things and took some time off commenting for a bit, but this statement from BD right here is why I will keep coming back to his blog, and will probably buy some more of his stuff. There’s no clear bias with BD. He likes and dislikes different proponents of both progressive and alt-rights. Most other “manosphere” blogs I run into just attack progressives…by paradoxically acting with the same toxic femininity (angry collective thinking) that they do. This article is a good example. No solutions, just whining: “ZOMG the evil progressives are taking over the world, but Trump will save us ALLLLLL!!!!”

    http://strengthbysonny.com/2017/02/08/masculinity-on-college-campuses-progressive-virus/

    Anyways, I agree with BD here, only I’d like to add a few things. You can allow yourself to pay for sex if:

    1) You just wanna do it for shits and gigs, just to see what its like. OR you haven’t had sex yet, putting in honest work to get laid for the first time, and want to get the first time out of the way so you can learn techniques hands on and prepare for your first “civilian.”

    2) You want to “prove to yourself” that you can get with very attractive chicks, this way it will inspire you to get with more attractive chicks down the road. You can also do this without paying and just getting out of your comfort zone too, but if you want to save time, then its fair.

    3) The chicks where you live aren’t as attractive as you would like them to be, and you want to get with more attractive chicks but don’t want to travel to get one. Again, this can be solved by looking harder to find more attractive chicks in your area or straight up moving.

    4) You are a chick and are sick of betas and alpha 1s who can’t please you the way you want them to, and are too busy to find alpha 2s.

  15. @JudoJohn: I actually thought of editing my comment to “1-2 MLTRs” instead of just “1” but was too lazy to do it. The point is that you never hold back from hitting on other (non-hooker) women when you actually have the time, but are not committed to this; so what really happens is when a LSNFTE occurs, you might be dating another woman. And the primary problem we’re trying to solve is consistency of sex for (in my example) a busy and moderate sex drive and not-so-high income guy, not the goal of having a serious relationship at all times. If you’ve just been LSNFTEed and it takes you a month on average to get a new MLTR/potential MLTR, you’ll fuck 1-3 escort(s) that month so that it isn’t an actual dry spell, while doing the regular hunting. When you do have a regular girl, it’s more like 0-2 per month.

    The other thing to keep in mind is that you’re not supposed to give free info to your girl about who the hell you’re dating and/or fucking; she may deduce it of course but as long as you don’t verbalize it and only ever vaguely admit that you “sleep around”, you won’t get the possible crazy outburst from stupidly saying “Hey honey, I banged this gorgeous big-boobed hooker last night. She says she deadlifts every week and has awesome hamstrings, mmmh” (unless you say it as an obvious sarcasm)

    And again, I admit that this would not work for a high sex drive guy for whom even 6 days qualifies as a dry spell, and who would be wasting absurd amounts of money if he were to pay for sex 10 or even 5 times per month. Personally I can enjoy sex 4+ times per week, but I don’t need it more than once if it’s not just a quickie. Then again, maybe that will change when I fix my crappy sleep as that will certainly make me hornier.

    those of us digging out of titanic financial holes have no business paying escorts

    That I fully agree with.

  16. I also think it’s ok to get an escort to try something new to get out of your system.  Like say you’re a white guy and want to fuck a hot black/asian/latin girl.  Finding a hot one might be really tough where you’re from so you hit up a super hot black/asian/latin hooker to check it off the list, then you’re done.

    I try to keep a variety in my FB‘s for this reason alone-I’ll get in a mood for an asian girl and hit up that FB.

  17. @ John

    You are going to write a book about how to be really happy?!! Wow, I don’t think you’ll be happy when your faithful, high class wife finds out that you got bored and cheated on her. That has divorce written all over it! So, you want a faithful wife but you are allowed to cheat?  I don’t see how you can be happy when you are not being honest and being secretive.

    Also, calling women sluts because they enjoy sex is ridiculous and slightly disrespectful. Without those women who you call “sluts,” you wouldn’t even be able to cheat on your high class wife. My suggestion is to be honest from the start, as dishonesty only creates a path of destruction. Maybe you should also consider being a little more respectful when you talk about women, especially if you plan on marrying someone who is considered “high class.”

  18. @Gil,

    You bring up good points!

    I think you’ve seen my comments here before and know that I’m a newb. I was LTR‘d to a smokeshow 20 years younger for 4.5 years, but that game’s been over for about 7 months. I made the hideous mistake of fucking a woman my age that I wasn’t that attracted to. Put an end to that about a month ago, it *so* wasn’t worth it, and 0 women is always better than 1.

    There are about 12 bars in a 15 minute walking distance from my high traffic apartment with a deck that leads to the pool area in a high traffic part of a medium sized city. I have been working out like a madman and am damn close to excellent shape, and have been getting a lot closer when going out. I talk to woman often, and love to dance…..when I go out I stretch tight shirts across my shoulders & chest…..in the last week I was out dancing, and a girl I hadn’t talked to walks up and rubs my shoulder, admiring the goods….I was at least 16 when she was born. I might need to start shopping at Armani Exchange, because evidently 5’9″ & 150 muscular pounds is smaller than small in America, and most of my shirts are fitting a bit loose.

    To circle back to the point of the thread, I think that BD caters to men who are usually at least somewhat successful, but I don’t have nearly the cash to spend on escorts, and it would stunt my development anyway. I’ve always muddled my way into relationships and I’m not that good at opening. At this point I’m willing to take a dry spell, including nofap, until I fuck another younger woman I find hot…..but that dry spell isn’t playing video games and fucking around on internet, or fucking easy women, or hiring escorts……it’s lifting, dancing, happy hours, building social circle, throwing parties, etc.

    I feel like if I swing for the bleachers and get 2 younger MLTR‘s I will solve the bane of my relationship existence….before my last LTR I always set my sights way too low, and as a result the women got all kinds of clingy (terrible EFA too, of course). If I have success in what I’m trying to do, I doubt they’re going to get clingy. And in fact….that LTR told me just last night that her new boyfriend is going *way* too fast and getting ahead of himself.

    I am grateful to have found this blog and am hopeful to avoid past mistakes!

  19. @Pink Firefly

    No point in responding to comments like that. Even if he is not a troll it will be impossible to have a reasonable discussion with him or change his mind.

  20. You can allow yourself to pay for sex if: 1) You just wanna do it for shits and gigs, just to see what its like.

    No. Terrible reason.

    2) You want to “prove to yourself” that you can get with very attractive chicks, this way it will inspire you to get with more attractive chicks down the road.

    No. It will more likely have the exact opposite effect.

    3) The chicks where you live aren’t as attractive as you would like them to be

    No. Move. (And that’s a bullshit excuse 95% of the time.)

    I also think it’s ok to get an escort to try something new to get out of your system.  Like say you’re a white guy and want to fuck a hot black/asian/latin girl.

    No. White guys fuck hot black/Asian/latin girls all the time. It’s easy.

    Finding a hot one might be really tough where you’re from

    No, no, no, NO, NO!

    You guys aren’t getting this.

    You can make all the bullshit excuses you want…

    “It’s harder for white guys to fuck non-white girls.” (Huh?)

    “All the girls in my city are ugly.” (Obvious bullshit)

    “It might give me more confidence.” (No, it will make you more of a pussy.)

    “Fucking a hooker might be fun.” (Sex with a normal woman who wants you isn’t fun?)

    “I can’t fuck hot girls unless I pay for it.” (Then learn how so you don’t have to pay for it, pussy.)

    Not only are your excuses bullshit, but they won’t protect you against the HARM you do to your mental frame, self-esteem, and possibly financial future if you pay women to have sex with you (unless you’ve met the two criteria above). Paying women to have sex with you is not something you just casually do “because you want to.” It’s DANGEROUS, with real and negative ramifications, and only viable under certain, specific conditions.

    Many of you in these comments are treating this issue much too casually.

    Smoke cigarettes if you really want to, but don’t tell me you’ll be perfectly healthy doing so. YOU WON’T.

  21. “Fucking a hooker might be fun.” (Sex with a normal woman who wants you isn’t fun?)

    I agree with this one. If you want to try it once to see what it’s like, where’s the harm? I fuck normal women who want me, but I can’t actually relax and just be selfish with them — I need to make sure they cum, etc. with a prostitute, well, no need to worry about making sure she cums, if I have 20 minutes I don’t need to think about if that’s enough time, etc. She’s getting money from me instead of me giving her attention.

    Of course, I might not like it, and thus far I don’t personally pay for sex(beyond buying a single drink for her). Once I’m done saving for retirement I’ll give it a shot, just to see what it’s like. Same reason I’ve gone to a strip club and had an LTR(officially open but actually not until we broke up and continued as FBs). It’s not my thing, but I needed to see what it was like.

  22. @Parade

    Agree. I have similar issues with new women and the first few times it really is all about her. The 2 times I was with prostitutes – where it was safe and legal – I was initially nervous but got off with ease with first one in just a few minutes. She was strikingly hot and the right blend of sweet and sleazy.

    After a recent, very dumb, blue pill experience of paying for 2 dinners before awkward sex where she cared little about my orgasm(s), I shook my head remembering the cheap, satisfying fun at the brothel.

    I “spin plates” as you guys say around here, and have been warming up to BD’s laissez-faire attitude about dating women who themselves are seeing other men. The quality of sex partners in my life has improved greatly as a result – at least the shorter flings. I still prefer “nice girls” and tend towards “oneitis” but getting better.

    Honestly, though, if it were safe and legal in the US like other places I would go every few weeks. It’s nice to know that once I’m too old to pull I can always rent a HB8 or 9 (abroad) and get right for the night.

  23. If you want to try it once to see what it’s like, where’s the harm?

    Look at Brick’s comment right after yours; there’s the harm.

    If you want to try it one time and never do it again, then of course there’s no harm, but that’s not what the guys in the comments are talking about, as Brick clearly demonstrated. Saying “try it once” too easily turns into “every once and a while” to “every few weeks” to “I have to because…”

    That’s the harm.

  24. This is John again,

    I was accused by one of the followers of being religious, sorry, farthest thing from it, Mr dragons accuses me of being young, sorry you missed that mark too.

    I am single, in my fifties and have a 19 year old drop dead gorgeous gf, and before her, an 18 year old of the same quality. I am an atheist.

    I live a happy life.

    My fault here is that I spoke truth. I know a guy who has personality flaws when I see it, and Mr dragon has them. He is very into himself, maybe even narcissistic. To live this alpha 2 thing you have to be, it’s gotta be one shitty ride for any woman in his life, how many girls has this guy destroyed,,,,seems like a silly dramatic statement, but it’s true, including his ex wife.

    Ms firefly, I hope the he’ll your the stupidest bitch on the planet, cause if you have even an inkling of awareness, your next. It won’t last, not with a guy who can’t feel love except when he looks in the mirror.

  25. Well, if it turns out I actually enjoy it more than the whole PUA thing I might end up doing it more, but if that’s the case it’s making me happy so I don’t really care 😉 But I won’t touch it until I’ve hit my retirement goals, mostly because it’s a waste of money, whether or not I’d enjoy it, which I could better use by putting it towards retirement.

    I see where it can turn into a problem, though. If you start thinking “well, maybe when I’m in a dry spell to take the edge off” and then “well, maybe when I’m too old to pull normally” and so forth…but that’s like anything potentially addicting(say, alcohol), and the solution is to work on yourself, not ban the addicting substance (ok, not the normal american solution, but…) I realize you aren’t advocating for banning prostitution, you’re advocating for abstinence, but I think if you’re interested in something you should try it. You might end up liking it, you might not, but at least you’re not curious anymore.

    Of course, if you’re trying it out of desperation instead of curiosity you’ll have problems and should probably abstain entirely.

  26. Great post BD. As usual I think you have nailed it in terms of your two criteria.

    As you said though it’s a topic that seems to get a lot of guys (and girls) worked up about.

    I’ve had a lot of experience with hookers over the last 20 years and there are a lot of misconceptions about them. Especially from guys who haven’t used them or have limited bad experiences to draw from.

    Just like any other area, you can’t make sweeping generalizations about the experience or assume it’s always the same. Remember you are still dealing with real women here!! Not cans of coke.

    100% agree you shouldn’t go near them unless you fit BD’s criteria perfectly. But if you do there are a number of reasons I think they are great.

    Number one is time and effort. If you are a guy that likes a lot of variety like me. Then hookers are an easy way to get that. I have even used them when I’ve been in a live in relationship plus had 4 FB’s on the side at the same time. Just because I wanted a little extra variety and I didn’t have the time or the energy to try and source another ONS. Remember time is the most valuable resource and the only one you can’t get more of.

    As a side note I’d be interested to hear your thoughts BD on guys who like a lot of variety as well as lots of sex. It seems to me that some high sex drive guys don’t necessarily need lots of variety but some do as well. Slightly different types of guys. Bit like pleasure of the hunt vs enjoyment of sex guys.

    You definitely can’t assume what sort of experience you are going to get. I’ve had some very ordinary sex and I’ve had some absolutely mind blowing experiences with hookers. Like everything there is a bit of an art to finding the right experiences. That’s one of the fun things as well. You can reduce your odds of having a bad experience and you never know when you are going to stumble upon someone who literally blows your mind.

    There is a MASSIVE difference between the west and places like Thailand etc. Both in terms of cost and quality of the experience. I’ve been to Vegas on holiday and picked up quality younger ladies every night (not hookers). But it doesn’t come close to my holidays in Thailand. Both trips are very different and I like both of them for different reasons. As per my point above though, even in Thailand there is an art to getting the right experience at the right cost. There are literally 10’s of thousands of pages on forums devoted to this stuff. Believe it or not game is just as important in this arena and makes a big difference. Beta’s get eaten alive in Thailand. Seen a few AM 1.0’s come unstuck as well.

    Chances of catching an STD are very low if you are safe.

    While ever I can still get ladies in there 20’s I can’t see much value in using hookers in the west. So it would be very rare. But I can see myself possibly going down the sugar daddy path in the future as I get closer to 60. But I will definitely keep going to Thailand and other fun places on short trips in the meantime regardless of what’s happening here.

  27. I’m sure WolfofGeorgeSt will weigh in with his views, but this is something a guy would need to be a multi-millionaire (at least 5 times over, at the very minimum) to do properly on a regular basis in a Western English speaking 1st world country (especially with much more hotter women who are on sugar daddy sites – many of whom who are on those sites, probably already work part or full time, as either an escort, or a sex worker) and I doubt if most male readers are in that category. 

    If I was, I’d do some minor dabbling in it, but it’s not something that holds a lot of interest, for similar reasons to those BD gave.

    Unless he’s socially retarded, overweight and/or horrifically ugly, doesn’t like socializing and mixing with people and/or has no game, a guy in a Western country worth at least 5 million, should be in a position where he has a social circle that makes it easy to meet much hotter women and/or have hot women pursue him, instead of him having to chase and/or pay them.

    If a guy in his 60s and 70s, wants to regularly hook up with women aged 30 and under, even if he regularly works out and looks after himself, it’s very doubtful he’d be able to do so freely, without paying them.

    Hugh Hefner who’s 90 and is still kicking, pays blonde women to be in his Los Angeles compound and to have them fuck him and if he didn’t, they’d all disappear from there in a split second.

  28. BD, do you think that essentially the greatest harm is that if you get used to good, easy, paid sex with a HB8 or 9, then you wont want to fuck average girls or make the effort to get hotter ones and so you will essentially have a perennial fixed monthly cost?

    This article has come at an extremely important point in my life too, as I am still developing my game (you have a knack of putting out articles at a great time) I’ve had good success with average looking girls who are not that great in bed, but not cute ones yet. (I can get a cute, good in bed, monogamous gf ).

    Oh, can I just make a sneaky gaffaw at John’s  ‘make sure she is the faithful type’ hahahahaha

  29. I did this when coming out of a 28  year mone-LPT that had gone deadbedroom for about 10+ years. Paid a nice spinner (gf experience) to re-learn what it was like and also to experiment with rough sex that I had read about post-divorce  (didn’t know much about that before!).

    I think it did good and re-trained me for when dealing with civilians.

     

  30. Tradcon slut shaming detected. Initiating red pill countermeasures now:

    And guys, don’t feed the troll.

    Fuck that! I want to fuck him up!

    No point in responding to comments like that. Even if he is not a troll it will be impossible to have a reasonable discussion with him or change his mind.

    The goal isn’t to have a rational discussion or change his mind. The goal is to ritually humiliate him by exposing his intellectual bankruptcy to everyone here and flogging him while laughing hysterically. The purpose of this is to teach the newbies the correct way of thinking by exposing all the flaws in the blue pill tradcon arsenal. In the long term, it will intellectually edify the community. In the short term, it will satisfy my bloodlust for slut shamers (don’t judge me!). So here we go:

    so what is he really saying….he is saying he forms relationships with sluts basically.

    Correct! So? What’s the problem? I would consider forming relationships with non-sluts very problematic if your goal is long term, or even short term, happiness. Just listening to an uptight prude whine about the toilet seat being up and how she can’t have sex with the lights on is enough to make my dick check out. If you value happiness, sluts are your only valid option.

    girls who, like him, cannot or do not like forming long term relationships,

    What? How…..does that logically follow? I’m in a long term and loving relationship right now with a “slut.” Wait, you mean monogamous relationships? Well yeah, but who wants those?

    probably, like him due to serious personality flaws.

    What the fuck are you talking about?

    girls who fuck on the first date.

    Wait….that’s a flaw? You forgot to add the word “don’t.” As in, “girls who don’t fuck on the first date.” I would agree that that’s a flaw. Why would you want to waste your time?

    girls who fuck lots of guys regularly.

    Is that supposed to be another flaw? Girls who don’t fuck other men are generally not very fun. The ones who do fuck other men regularly tend to be constantly relaxed, easy going, low maintenance, non-judgy, and super open minded. You should meet my girlfriend. Why would you want someone who is uptight about sex and thinks she has gold between her legs? You enjoy this type of stuck up female supremacy?

    most women want a long term relationship,

    Correct. Most men do as well. What does that have to do with monogamy? Or slut shaming?

    yet 94% of his women eventually come back to him, meaning they are such losers that they cannot fulfill their desires of a long term relationship.

    Um……..I think they come back to him precisely because they can and do fulfill their desires for a long term relationship. If they didn’t want a long term relationship, they obviously wouldn’t have come back to him.

    You have the right facts, but you’re using them to come to wrong conclusions. Try again:

    meaning they have serious problems

    How?

    meaning they are probably stupid, low class sluts ,

    How is being a “slut” synonymous with stupidity? How is it synonymous with being “low class?”

    low on ethics

    What ethics? You actually think that monogamy is ethical?

    and high on drugs.

    How far did you have to reach into your ass to pull out this complete non-sequitur?

    I am sorry, but their is no other way to interpret this guys idea of the perfect life.

    See above.

    basically, let me go online, find girls who will fuck me quickly, continue to see them even though they are fucking other guys, and I will focus on me and my selfish happiness, and as long as I get pussy, I could care less what these bitches do.

    Exactly! I still don’t see a problem.

    so then, what is really so different between what he advocates and fucking prostitutes.

    1. Fucking prostitutes is female supremacy because paying a woman for sex denotes that she is the generous one (superior) and he is the grateful one (inferior), thus making symbiosis, intimacy, and equality impossible!

    2. Fucking a woman who doesn’t want to be fucked but is only pretending to enjoy it because you’re paying her is sick. She’s selling you a fantasy, as an actress. It’s deception. We want the real thing. We want symbiosis. We want true intimacy. We want the woman to be genuinely sexually attracted to us so that the sex can be a mutual spiritual experience. Without that, there is no point.

    basically he finds sluts that will fuck for free,

    And he will fuck them too. Whereas a prostitute only fucks you, but you don’t fuck her. We want to fuck women. We don’t want them to just fuck us.

    probably not as good looking as some college kid who sells herself secretly for tuition money or as exists here in Houston some incredibly hot Hispanic or Asian girls, 18 or 19 years old and almost model like in appearance who you can easily get for $200.

    Just one mutual and genuine experience (even in the form of a one night stand) is worth a million prostitutes spread across a thousand lifetimes!

    If you truly can’t comprehend the relevancy of the difference between genuine sexual attraction from the woman vs. a cold business transaction, then I feel sorry for you, bigly!

    so when black dragon says he can easily get women to have sex with him, he is basically saying he can easily get sluts to have sex with him,

    Correct. And since sluts are the only women worth having sex with, what’s the problem? That’s what he should be saying. What else should he be saying?

    he has mastered the art of getting sluts and that in of itself is an accomplishment.

    As distinguished from what? Getting Asian Buddhist pussy? Sorry, but “sluts” can wax on and wax off way better than any “satisfaction come from within” ascetic nun.

    i have gone online and tried that route, and the girls there are usually un attractive, fat, or transsexuals.

    Have you tried a more sexually open minded profile? I have a book you may wish to purchase from a certain dragon who is black.

    they re not star material.  in Houston anyway, you get incredibly high quality girls for little money looking at online prostitute sites like preferred 411 for example.

    But who wants to turn sex into a mechanical oil change?

    the difference in quality of the girls is day and night over online dating sites.

    How can you have quality without genuine attraction and mutual sexual sincerity?

    Mr dragon is a writer and he makes his money selling books, so he is not about to advocate going out and getting gorgeous girls and paying for sex.

    Well yeah. Why should we pay to give a woman an orgasm?

    that’s too easy and does not sell books.

    That’s too loserish.

    so, my advice is this and some day i will write my own book and how to really be happy…..get married

    Haha! Oh that’s smart. Bring the government into your bed. The government is here to help you enhance your sex life and happiness. What could go wrong?

    to a high class girl

    How does “high class” translate into non-slut? I don’t get it. Did you know that the richest and most powerful women in the world are in open marriages and attend regular orgies with the elites?

    Did I just blow up your world?

    who will make a good mother.

    And just how does a hateful woman who thinks my girlfriend is trash make a good mother? How would my girlfriend, who is constantly relaxed and happy, make a bad mother? How does “good mother” translate into hating sex? You confuse me dude!

    make sure she is the faithful type

    You mean monogamous? Why would I want to make sure of that? I don’t want to nag her for sex and have her tell me no all the time. Why would I want a prude with a sex drive inferior to mine?

    and despite what mr dragon says, there are millions of women out there who are not sluts,

    Sadly, that is true. And those non-sluts are indirectly responsible for all the wars in the world (by raising the price of pussy) and all the misery. People who have constant sex don’t start wars, don’t fight, and aren’t miserable.

    and who will remain devoted loving wives

    Explain how my girlfriend isn’t devoted or loving! Explain how fucking other men makes her less devoted and less loving. Explain how inviting the government into my bedroom and going through a horseshit attention whoring ceremony for the purposes of getting validation from the State will make her more devoted or more loving.

    and will remain faithful to you.

    Explain how fucking other men makes her less faithful. Explain why I should want a prude who hates the thought of sleeping with others. If you think I should have a high sex drive woman, explain how such an exciting woman won’t cheat on me if I make the stupid mistake of going mono. Explain why I shouldn’t want the best of both worlds by remaining poly.

    if you are going crazy fucking the same woman even though you love her, have a secret meeting with a young gorgeous prostitute once in a while,

    So your life plan is to have joyless cold fish sex with the government sanctioned woman and mechanical professional sex with an illegal actress selling you a deceptive fantasy on the side as your relief from the cold? HAHAHA! Brilliant!

    the meeting will be quick and satisfying for both parties,

    If it will be satisfying for both parties, why does she have to get paid?

    you will not have to worry about her being discreet, i assure you she has as much to lose as you do.

    Married women, especially married mothers, have even more to lose. So you REALLY don’t have to worry about them violating discretion. That’s why they make the best fuck buddies. And they’re not actresses. And you don’t have to pay them. Just fuck them silly while allowing their husband to live in the comfortable delusion that he married a so called “high class mother.” LMFAO!

    this system of mine is not perfect,

    Ladies and gentleman: I present to you above, the understatement of the century!

    but neither is mr dragons i assure you.

    His endgame is happiness and lots of orgasms. Yours is cold fish sex with the government approved woman and professional sex with deceptive actresses on the side. Gee, which do I choose? How do I solve this philosophical pickle?

    Seriously dude, stay in school.

     

     

  31. You definitely can’t assume what sort of experience you are going to get. I’ve had some very ordinary sex and I’ve had some absolutely mind blowing experiences with hookers

    That’s true of ONSs as well.

    As a side note I’d be interested to hear your thoughts BD on guys who like a lot of variety as well as lots of sex. It seems to me that some high sex drive guys don’t necessarily need lots of variety but some do as well. Slightly different types of guys. Bit like pleasure of the hunt vs enjoyment of sex guys.

    I’d be interested too. I’m one of those guys who like variety. It’s not as important to me as quantity, but I certainly enjoy having multiple partners and new partners. At the moment I’m in the happy position of having a roster of FBs, but I still enjoy ONSs (or in some cases what become very short-term “flings”, typically when one or both of us is visiting a city). Plus there’s something I enjoy about completely no-strings sex, and I don’t think paying a hooker is completely no-strings: I enjoy fucking knowing that she wants it too and is enjoying it, I hope as much as I am.

    But I am relying more on regular partners, perhaps as I get older, perhaps because I now find it is a better use of time and energy than going out on the hunt too often. But I can’t see myself completely giving up ONSs either.

    Neither, though, would I categorically rule out paying for sex if the need arose at some point for some reason.

  32. Reading john’s post, I’m starting to believe what is said about guys that slut shame. “Sluts are girls that don’t sleep with me”

  33. Great article as always BD

    Hookers are just another avoidance mechanism for guys, because they are just AFRAID OF APPROACHING THE HOTTIES

    When you think about it, it all boils down to that. Any guy could have a 1000fold improvement of their sex life in 1-2 years if they actually stick to the plan and approach, even if it’s painful. And after that, why even think about prostitutes? When you have chicks as good looking who WANT to fuck you.

    Everything has been codified and taught about getting better with chicks, the resources are enormous and fucking FREE. Guys just have to do it… But it’s scary to talk to hot chicks, so most don’t and end up going “monk mode”, paying for hookers, with pointy elbow syndrome etc. All of this manifestation of this fear.

    Funny when you think about it… It’s almost as if an average guy is less scared of battling with AK47-wielding ISIS fanatics than of going up to the 9 at the club with the resting bitch face and tight dress.

  34. I’m guessing it’s a term to make fun of guys who use any excuse for not approaching a girl. You pick something “negative,” about the girl, which in this case is her pointy elbows, and save yourself from making an approach.

  35. I’m guessing it’s a term to make fun of guys who use any excuse for not approaching a girl. You pick something “negative,” about the girl, which in this case is her pointy elbows, and save yourself from making an approach.

    Ah yes, I see.

    Reminds me, in reverse, of “The Mikado”, in which Katisha, who is plain, declares that her right elbow has a fascination that few can resist…   🙂  [Off-topic, sorry.]

     

  36. As a side note I’d be interested to hear your thoughts BD on guys who like a lot of variety as well as lots of sex.

    There’s no difference. Have multiple MLTRs and FBs at all times, and do ONSs if you like them. Or have an OLTR but be out there constantly getting and recycling new FBs (and do ONSs if you like them).

    I’m sure WolfofGeorgeSt will weigh in with his views, but this is something a guy would need to be a multi-millionaire (at least 5 times over, at the very minimum) to do properly on a regular basis in a Western English speaking 1st world country

    Huh? Incorrect. Any guy making $100,000+ a year with very little debt could throw around a few hundred dollars a month if he really wanted to.

    The problem is, most Western guys making that kind of money don’t have “little debt,” plus they have wives, kids, bills, alimony, etc. The West is a consumer, debt-based culture, particularly the US.

    BD, do you think that essentially the greatest harm is that if you get used to good, easy, paid sex with a HB8 or 9, then you wont want to fuck average girls or make the effort to get hotter ones and so you will essentially have a perennial fixed monthly cost?

    No. I the greatest harm is that you’ll soon start to think, “Since I’m such a pussy, the ONLY WAY I can get good sex with an 8+ is by paying for it. There’s no other way for me.”

    You should right an article like this about jerking off

    I more or less did here.

    Hookers are just another avoidance mechanism for guys, because they are just AFRAID OF APPROACHING THE HOTTIES

    In many cases, this is true.

    Any guy could have a 1000fold improvement of their sex life in 1-2 years if they actually stick to the plan and approach, even if it’s painful.

    Correct!

    Learning pickup / dating skills is an investment that will pay you back literally for the rest of your life. Those first 1-2 years where you’re getting good are well worth it. Almost 10 years later I’m still benefiting from those 1-2 years I put in so long ago, and will continue to benefit until the day I die. The return on investment is huge.

  37. I’m strongly on the camp that is not too fond of hookers:

    – sex is mechanic…I’m not that individualist to think I’m the only one bound to have pleasure;

    –  I like my women cumming….makes me more horny, so never saw it as “work”;

    – I like the challenge of seduction…even when you go 100% online you gotta have texting skills to set up a meet, then conversational skills on the actual date and seduction skills to escalate and arouse her enough for her to have sex with you;

    – I never, ever, mind the time when I’m fucking. Personally one of the most annoying stuff that can occur is having anything in the back of my head when I’m screwing a hot chick. Guess what, that’s precisely what happens when you fuck a prostitute! Let’s move on sucker, I have 3 other guys to fuck tonight;

  38. If you want to try it one time and never do it again, then of course there’s no harm

    That’s what I meant when I said if you want to see one for shits and gigs just for the experience, if you do it exactly once. I don’t know why I didn’t clarify that. Is that kind of thing likely however? Nope.

    I suppose all my other reasons can be seen as rationalizing in retrospect.

  39. “Sluts are girls that don’t sleep with me”

    That’s pretty much what slut shaming is. And from the female side, their rationalization is “she’s with a guy who I should be with!”

    Slut/Stud Shamers are pretty much sexually frustrated individuals who wish to psychologically project their frustration onto others. Not to mention they are extremely hypersensitive and very easy to upset, as we all saw with tradcon John.

  40. I’m sure WolfofGeorgeSt will weigh in with his views, but this is something a guy would need to be a multi-millionaire (at least 5 times over, at the very minimum) to do properly on a regular basis in a Western English speaking 1st world country

    I’ve been summoned… Actually I pretty much agree with the article, I tend to only comment when there’s something I disagree with, there’s a few things in the comments BD has mentioned I disagree with which I will go over. As for the $5m+ stuff BD has already covered that above in a previous comment.

    Although, in addition, one could just get a second job or something and spend their time they would have spent chasing women making money to fund prostitutes. Some guys make money from the hobby itself, eg. guys that start porn sites, if it’s successful, they get paid to have sex with ‘prostitutes’, or guys that start profitable punter forums or escort directories etc. they turn it into a business that funds the hobby.

    In terms of the criteria BD has presented, I agree with it, and I fit the criteria perfectly, but in fact, rarely pay directly for sex anyway. I didn’t at all during the entirety of 2016.

    Now the few things BD mentioned in the comments that I don’t agree with…

    No. I the greatest harm is that you’ll soon start to think, “Since I’m such a pussy, the ONLY WAY I can get good sex with an 8+ is by paying for it. There’s no other way for me.”

    Accepting your limitations and shortcomings shouldn’t be harmful, it’s HELPFUL. There is no shame in a 5’2, bald, ugly guy admitting to himself that getting a hot, young, 8+ in a tough market is extremely unlikely or impossible without money.

    We all have a ceiling for what we can achieve no matter how hard we work at something dictated by our genetics. Just like a guy that wants to be a pro basketball player, he might not have the genetic makeup and natural talent for it so no matter how hard he works he might never make the pro’s but he can still become a very good basketball player, is it more beneficial for his happiness that he admits to himself that he doesn’t have the genetic makeup to become a pro player though? Or is he better off spending his time fruitlessly trying to achieve it to no avail? What happens when he finally wakes up one day and realizes he’s wasted his life pursuing something that was never possible? That in itself could lead to some serious depression.

    This is no different from you admitting that you can’t get hot, young, girls on Tinder because you’re not young/good looking enough (which you have). Or no different than many of us admitting that we can’t get 8+’s from online we’ve never met to come straight over and fuck us like the male model looking guy we know can. We have to actually take them out for at least drinks first, there’s no shame in that. So a guy admitting too himself that he can’t get an 8+ without paying, if he has genuinely worked hard for it and put serious time into it and failed, is healthy and can lead to happiness, because he’ll either move to a place where he can achieve that or pay for it. No shame in that.

    We ALL have limitations we have to deal with that are no fault of our own, genetics does play a part.

    The other thing I and BD disagree on is comments like this…

    If a guy in his 60s and 70s, wants to regularly hook up with women aged 30 and under, even if he regularly works out and looks after himself, it’s very doubtful he’d be able to do so freely, without paying them.

    BD likes to promote the idea that it’s totally possible, which makes sense, he’s selling a product. It wouldn’t make much sense to admit that if old guys want hot young women they’re going to have to pay for it (if not directly then with gifts and/or lifestyle or at least dangling the expectation/hope for the woman that having sex with him will lead to money/gifts/lifestyle etc.). He would be cutting out a sizable section of his potential market by admitting that.

    I’ll concede that it’s POSSIBLE, but it is extremely unlikely and the ROI on your time would be so low that the old dude would probably be better of getting a job at McDonalds and using that low hourly wage to fund paying for girls.

    Let’s get real, anyone with half a brain that doesn’t have an agenda will know that if a really old guy in the western world wants a hot, young girl then money is going to have to be a factor on some level, unless he’s conning them into bed or offering something similar like a job she wants or access to something she wants etc. ‘Solid game’ just isn’t going to cut it.

  41. There’s no difference. Have multiple MLTRs and FBs at all times, and do ONSs if you like them. Or have an OLTR but be out there constantly getting and recycling new FBs (and do ONSs if you like them).

    I’ve done this. But as a guy almost 50, constantly pulling new hot 20 yo’s for ONS’s with either online or direct approach is hard work. Even if you are good at it. Energy and ROI of time becomes an issue. Especially if you are managing 3 – 5 FB‘s or MLTR‘s and focusing on your fitness and business goals as well.

  42. I’ve done this. But as a guy almost 50, constantly pulling new hot 20 yo’s for ONS’s with either online or direct approach is hard work.

    That’s exactly why I don’t recommend it, but they were asking about what to do if you have a strong need for sexual variety (which I do not have). If you do, if you’re more of a Thrill of the Hunt type of guy, then yeah, fulfilling your needs is going to be more difficult and more time consuming for you in the long run, particularly as you age, no matter what you do.

    It’s the same when I talk about guys with high sex drives (like me) having to work harder in your woman life than men with lower sex drives. Sometimes your personality gives you the harder-working end of the deal.

  43. women care about looks money and status.facial aesthetics is the most important. Race, skin tone and height play a role as well. muscles will only add 1-2 points to your SMV for about 20% of women. The majority of chicks aren’t really turned on to a large degree about a guy having a nice physique. but of course when asked what kind of look do you prefer a fat guy or a guy in shape of course shes going to say a guy in shape. Thats like an ass man  being asked do you prefer a flat chest or a nice rack. hes gonna pick the nice rack. but it doesn’t do much for him sexually, the ass does. Also as men, most of us look at body parts. Your an exception BD. But for most guys a woman with a 10 body and a 6 face is still a ten overall. Women will not lay with a guy just because he has muscles or a big dick. They care about the whole package most imp the face secondary is race and skin tone and height. 5’7 with a chiseled sexy masculine face beats 6’6 with an ugly face any day of the week. 5’3 is another story tho. There are plenty of men with Adrian Peterson physiques but have an unattractive face and they are at home stroking the tip.  having a good personality, confidence, being charming, a bad boy, and being funny are bonuses and will help get you a relationship( only if you pass her physical attractiveness criteria. But if your goal is to just get laid, the only thing women care about is looks first. If you don’t have the looks then of course you have to have money. but women don’t care that you have  a flashy car, clothes, big house , jewelry or a big bank account. The whole point of money is how can you benefit her. That means in order to have sex with her you must legally marry her or directly or indirectly hand your resources over to her. your not gonna score a ton of women and have them keep coming back for more because you have a big bank account without handing that money over to her in some form. all a bad boy means is good looking or having money or status. The third area that can help get a variety of women is status. How can you benefit her? she gets attention by being a with a fortune 500 CEO, actor, nba player, rapper. Just because you have a good job( Physician assistant, engineer, etc) doesn’t mean you will pull a variety of women. Thats a low level of status. as a engineer you may land a woman here and there but you have to date her and let her believe you plan on having kids or marrying her. so she can use you as financial security. real status is something that will bring her attention. Also having game is bullshit as well. If you take an African( jet black) or Chinese man is 5’5 and has a 4/10 face but has a decent body, hes confident, has game, is charming and a bad boy.  he will not pick up a ton of attractive women. why because women only care about the things Ive mentioned Looks money and Status. They lie to you and say confidence, confidence,game etc is only a bonus for a man who she finds attractive. most women prefer a aggressive, dominant man but its only a bonus for good looking men. There are plenty of good looking men with shitty personalities, no game, etc and still get laid. an ugly mans only shot at getting laid by a variety of attractive women(7+s)is by propositioning handing his resources over to a woman for an exchange for sex. Your not ugly BD, so you may not understand the reality of the situation for most ugly men. Our only option is to buy sex. Pay her car note, take her out to a five star restaurant, buy her clothes, let her stay with you rent free and not work, etc.a woman is not going to hook up with you regularly just because you have money. money, gifts, etc must be headed her direction. Again this doesn’t apply to all women. Just the majority of them. 1-10% of women really only care about personality in America. Another thing is most women will never love you for you. They love you because you look good or because you are taking care of her financially. even average looking men 5/10s cant score 5s in America because of stuff like Instagram, snap chat, tinder, POF pumping up these women’s heads. average looking white man can still get laid. But an average looking black guy(brown and dark skin only) is out of luck even in his own racial group. average looking Chinese and Indian men are out of luck as well but can score in their own race.  i don’t care about driving a fancy car, big house, jewelry. my passion is women( getting laid ). So if i have to pay to get laid then its still worth it. A simp is a man who is ugly never got attractive women in his youth and now that hes successful. He dates chicks seriously who had no interest in him in the past or marries a woman who wouldn’t even have gave him the time of day when he was broke. A simp is a man who does anything for a woman’s validation or lets them boss him around in a relationship. A simp is not a man who simply pays for pussy to get what he wants. i don’t have sex with women to brag or make myself feel great about how many women i tapped. I just enjoy having sex with a lot of women.  sex is my favorite hobby , i dont have a passion for music, sports, cars. I use my money for investments, retirement, charity and women thats it. What do you think ? is there anything i said that is not accurate

  44. another note is i can get laid for free from women who most guys find attractive but i find unattractive. The chicks i find attractive most guys think are average. so basically i can get laid for free, but in order to land the chicks i find at least decently attractive i have to pay. sometimes ill score a chick i find hot, but i dont have the time to approach 50 women for the chance at one.  My self esteem isn’t damaged ive had high self esteem my entire life. im comfortable in my own skin. for some odd reason people believe just because a person admits they are average looking , then they must suffer from low self esteem.  I don’t care about saving time even though that is a bonus, the main reason i pay  is because its the best and only option for me to get girls i find “cute”. Game , confidence is bullshit bros. Biggie smalls, Kevin hart are funny, charming, confident and have good personalities. Before they were famous they dated women the same level or below them in regards to looks ; especially biggie. big died at 24, there is film of him at 17/18 with the same swag and bravado. When are you guys gonna realize the truth. all the traits i mentioned are just bonuses for facially desirable men. my proof you rarely see an ugly guy with a hot chick unless a) hes giving her money or b) he has status and the woman gets attention by being his side piece/gf. not saying how u dress, and having confidence are bad things. im just saying its only a bonus and really only beneficial for facially attractive men. some more proof. im 6.4, 220 10% body fat a 5 in the face. i have a confidence, high self esteem( had these traits my entire life) and naturally have bad boy personality. how the heck can i be hurting other men by purchasing something i want. Also i have never slept with a woman i find to be below a 6. im not desperate for pussy. I make more than 75k and have been for years. i have no debt no wife and i live with family . so i can afford to spend 1000+on women per month if i want to. not into hooking with escorts, i prefer to meet regular chicks and just be up front that i want to financially support them. who not a real man

  45. Not sure what game education you have been looking at. But I think you have missed something somewhere. I’m decent looking, good physique, always been fit, professional with a successful business. I’ve always been pretty natural with women and never had too much trouble picking up etc. But ultimately I was just stumbling around hit and miss like most guys. But when I started learning game and how to approach properly, dress better etc etc (and working hard at it) my results went to a whole different level. Especially given I didn’t really find out about game or start working on it until I was about 44. There is no way I could have pulled a hot 20 something from a bar before I learnt game. It makes a massive difference.

  46. If someone knows a guy in his 50s, 60s or 70s, who’s :
    – not a rich celebrity and/or a very rich businessmen.
    – in shape, regularly works out and looks after himself.
    – regularly having sex with Western only women (not Asian or African women) aged 30 and under and under and isn’t paying them for it, I’d be interested to know. 
     
    With women aged 30-50, it may be possible, but we know what most women aged 33 and over are like, so it’d be much harder.
     
    By ‘paying’, I mean he’ll take them out to dinner, pay for it and buy them drinks, but he’s NOT paying any type of allowance to fuck him and is relying solely on game and appearance (if it works in his favour).
     
    I can give 2 examples, but they’re 2 rich celebrity dudes who’d each have a personal worth of at least $US 400 million.
     
    Mick Jagger. Is 73 and like Mel below, he obviously likes to fuck without using protection, as he’s had 8 kids by 5 women.  He fucked a woman aged 30 (who’s pretty hot if you Google her) and she bore him a child in December.  Granted MJ looks outstanding for his age, but he’s a fitness fanatic and regularly runs 10 kms a day.
     
    Mel Gibson.  Is 61, has had 9 kids by 3 women.  The 2nd woman was a gold digger who fucked him over and ruined his career for 10 years.  Her fucked a woman aged 26 (who’s pretty hot, if you Google her).  He looks like shit and has aged pretty badly, which I’m guessing is from drinking and possibly smoking.
     
    Would these 2 women have done this, without the considerable wealth, fame and celebrity factors.  I greatly doubt it, unless they were paid to.
     

  47. BD, is there any drawback to regularly (or occasionally) banging a plainer girl because you actually like her, assuming you’re also banging hotter ones ?

  48. If someone knows a guy in his 50s, 60s or 70s, who’s :
    – not a rich celebrity and/or a very rich businessmen.
    – in shape, regularly works out and looks after himself.
    – regularly having sex with Western only women (not Asian or African women) aged 30 and under and under and isn’t paying them for it, I’d be interested to know.

    I know six men like this, just off the top of my head. I could probably come up with more if I thought about it more.

    Six men, all normal dudes in their 50’s dating women in their 20’s, whom they don’t pay. Not a big deal at all. I’ve already stated that I’ll be doing the same when I’m in my 50’s. That’s in just 5 years. I won’t look radically different in 5 years.

    Granted, I don’t know any men over 60 who are dating women in their 20’s without paying them, but I’ve said many times that once you’re over 60, you’re going to have to throw some money around if you want to bang women under 30. The good news is that when you’re in your friggin’ 60’s, you should have more than enough income to throw around a few hundred bucks a month. (And if you don’t, you have much bigger problems than sex!).

    You’re making this aging thing a much bigger monster than it actually is. If you want to keep making that an excuse, go right ahead. You’re wrong, but go ahead.

  49. BD, is there any drawback to regularly (or occasionally) banging a plainer girl because you actually like her, assuming you’re also banging hotter ones ?

    If she was hotter when you first fucked her and eventually became more plain over time (either because of her change in lifestyle, or your tastes improved), then no.

    If she was plain the first time you fucked her, yes (or at least, “probably”).

  50. I know six men like this, just off the top of my head. I could probably come up with more if I thought about it more.
    Six men, all normal dudes in their 50’s dating women in their 20’s, whom they don’t pay. Not a big deal at all. I’ve already stated that I’ll be doing the same when I’m in my 50’s. That’s in just 5 years. I won’t look radically different in 5 years.

    Six guys you personally know IRL or six guys you know online from some internet forum? Any PUA/manosphere related forum is riddled with liars and exaggerators trying to stroke their fragile ego’s, the lies are evident when you meet them in person and their online persona’s don’t match their internet persona’s.

    Most guys lie about it and pretend they’re not paying women even IRL anyway, they don’t want to admit to it and the women they’re seeing know well enough to keep their mouths shut.

    So either:
    – They’re lying
    – The girls they’re seeing are fat, ugly or third worlders/Asian
    – They’re in a place like Eastern Europe

    You make some pretty outrageous claims on this blog at times that just doesn’t mesh with my real world experience, and I’ve worked directly with dating companies to get guys results online all around the world, there are serious limitations, Age is a huge factor as is looks and needs to be compensated with by either money or status.

    It would be very easy to settle alot of these claims. Claims of average looking guys meeting 10’s online, 50+ yo guys dating 20 somethings etc. Make a set of test dating profiles in various cities (or rather make a few and move them around cities) and post up the results and prove to us all that it’s possible, using the very methods that you SELL. Easy.

    If it’s successful you could even sell the results in a book and the methods you used with actual messages and profile text and pics of the guys you used for the profiles, and if you can get their permission (or pay them a small amount for the rights) pictures of the girls it worked on, and the stats like response rates etc. it would be 100% tangible, factual results. I’d buy it and I’m sure many others would too.

    If you use SA though ensure that you make it extremely clear in the profile that you’re not paying or gifting them anything and all you’re offering is nice dates with a mature, worldly man that is perhaps offering mentorship, and ensure there is no confusion with the girls, but it would be better to stick to traditional dating sites so there’s no confusion and it’s more in line with the advice that you’re selling.

    It would go a long way to substantiating some of  the claims considering that you’re selling online dating advice and have admitted that you haven’t online dated at all in the past 2 years!

    Again, as I always say, your relationship management advice is top notch, and probably the best online, and even the online dating advice is great provided guys have realistic expectations. Expectations of meeting 10’s online for an average guy and 20 somethings for many 50+ year olds without involving money/serious status are just not realistic.

  51. Six guys you personally know IRL or six guys you know online from some internet forum?

    In real life. Four are guys I know personally in real life (three of whom I know the women they’re dating, and they’re not fat or ugly), two are guys who have been in my membership program and who I’ve talked to in-depth over a prolonged period of time. None of them are on “some internet forum.”

    Since my first comment about this, I remembered two more men in their 50’s like this (that I know in real life), so now I’m up to eight, not six.

    Wolf, I’m starting to get a little tired of your repeated comments implying that I’m constantly lying to everyone in order to sell books. If you want to believe that that I’m lying, that’s perfectly fine, but repeating that over and over here makes you a troll, and as you know, trolls aren’t allowed here.

    If you want to continue to post here, you’re welcome to, even if you disagree with me. But if you keep implying that I’m lying, then please refrain from posting here and go post somewhere else. This is my last warning. Thanks in advance.

  52. I think there is a simple cost benefit analysis. Namely, when YOUR time is worth a whole lot more than the whore you are paying, it is worth it. Example: whore costs $500, you are making $10000/hr.

    Besides, how can you write on this topic if you have never done it, as you admit here on this blog

  53. Can you get any, or preferably all of these older guys BD that you’ve mentioned, to make some guest posts on this blog, on their strategies and tactics and to answer people’s questions.  If any are open, tell them they can use a fake name.

    If they’re legit in their claims and can give you some proof, I’m very curious as an older guy myself in my early 50’s, who’s fanatical about regularly working out, but I don’t have my shit together enough financially.

  54. @WolfOfGeorgeStreet 

    Wolf – I imagine your limited world view is based on your limited personal experience.  I would guess Wolf that you live in a place with few single young women, or you dont interact with young women and older single men who date a lot.  From your reaction and vitriolic tone I would guess that you can not fathom this, because you have never actually been exposed to it.

    I am 41 and regularly date women 19-32.  And the 50 year old guys I know totally run rings around me and are my competition, because they usually take better care of themselves(I still like to go out late, drink and eat.. some day I will clean up my act!).  Basically, these 50 yr old guys are probably the most eligible bachelors out there, and young women desperately want to be with real men like this.  I look forward to this reality being a single guy, with a divorce long behind me, and one almost grown child.

    You might think that this is impossible, because online dating is such a blood bath. You can have a well constructed profile, and still miss out on a lot of opportunity. This is true. I would say its better for older men to meet women in real life, than from online, or to add to their online pipeline. Its much easier to meet and hook younger women by meeting them in person, than from online. If your only way of meeting young women is from online, you will be a frustrated chump a lot of the time.

    You may say “oh its SA game for them.”  I would disagree 100%.  Its often the girls who are trying to win over these guys by giving them good sex, showing them off to their friends in social media, cleaning their homes, babysitting their kids, etc.  If you cant even fathom that this happens to millions of older men every day in the US, then again I would say you live a sheltered life.

    What I see on “internet forums” these days, are not bold and ridiculous claims of conquest, but a lot of hate.  Hate from guys who live sheltered boring lives.  Anti-social men with limited life experience, or are experiencing a phase of limited life experience.  Its easy to point fingers at people writing books and producing this content, but in reality, most of the time, they are the most experienced.

  55. http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2016/01/21/prostitution/

    I referred to 2 and 3, you admit to never having sex with a prostitute,
    which is the only pure exchange of sex for money. Sugar daddy stuff is different because you do not pay for sex directly, although you are expected to pay in other ways.
    Technically she can string you
    or refuse sex with you if she wants to do so. She is not required to have
    sex with you even when you pay. Therefore, a minimum game is required,
    and BD obviously had to have a lot of game if you wanted to have sex with sugar
    babies for free or for minimum $.

    I agree with your post, and seen a bunch of AFC MGTOW types posting their negative escort experiences. But… You did not have experience being a regular of a prostitute or even fucking a
    prostitute once. So, you did not really ever pay money for sex. Just saying. BD fucked sugar babies
    for free. That is very different from paying for sex, even paying sugar babies for sex.

  56. Wolf – I imagine your limited world view is based on your limited personal experience.  I would guess Wolf that you live in a place with few single young women, or you dont interact with young women and older single men who date a lot.  From your reaction and vitriolic tone I would guess that you can not fathom this, because you have never actually been exposed to it.

    I am 32, in Sydney. The current girls I am seeing are 20 (7.5/10), 22 (6/10), 25 (7/10) and 26 (8-9/10), I am also married. My previous side girls over the past year were 19 ( 8.5/10 model), 20 ( 8/10 student/stripper), So i definitely interact with alot of young women who date alot, the older men I interact with who date alot have it ROUGH.

    None of those girls I paid, but I did use wealth to my advantage, I had to fight tooth and nail just to get them. Do I think I’ll be able to achieve that in my 50’s without money being a significant factor? Not a chance, my looks, relatively ‘young’ age and relative wealth compared to many my age already plays a huge part.

    I’ve gamed in the US, it’s multiple times easier than here (in NYC, but Chicago also seems comparable to there), so I can concede that my experience outside of Australia is limited, and there is a vast difference between US cities from what I can gather. I certainly don’t see the 50+ year old average wealth/status guys dating hot 20 somethings here regardless. I DO see the guys with serious money, a yacht, Maserati etc. doing it.

    When I think I’ve spotted such a  couple I take a glance at her shoes (or handbag) and they’ll be Louboutin or Valentino etc. when a hot early 20’s girl is wearing these and walking around with an older guy it’s a dead give away.

    Perhaps it’s a US thing, maybe due to a bigger wealth/class divide. I don’t know, perhaps they’re turning to these older guys for security which they don’t need here, which would explain why they’re throwing them sex, babysitting, looking after there homes etc. and trying to be seen as a good ‘house wife’ so to speak.

    A first year teacher or nurse will be earning $60k a year here, do you think she cares if some 50yo is earning 100k a year and owns a house unless he’s actively dropping cash/gifts? There’s not much he can really offer her that she can’t get herself or from a guy in his 40’s or below, unless we’re talking luxury tier items/lifestyle.

  57. Can you get any, or preferably all of these older guys BD that you’ve mentioned, to make some guest posts on this blog

    I’ve already asked two of them a year or two ago; they declined. There’s two more I could ask, but don’t hold your breath.

    on their strategies and tactics and to answer people’s questions

    I know you’re not going to want to hear this, but these men would describe exactly what I’ve already described on this blog and in my ebooks regarding younger women with older men, with little deviation. (Maximize your appearance, don’t act like a younger man, don’t be a beta, don’t be threatening or creepy, etc.) You’re looking for a secret sauce that I haven’t yet described; they’re isn’t any.

    If they’re legit in their claims and can give you some proof

    Did you not read my comment? I said I personally know at least three of the women three of these men are dating. As I already said to Wolf, if you want to think the other five men are all somehow engaged in some kind of elaborate deception with me, then you’re welcome to believe that. Kinda stupid though.

    I’m seriously starting to feel like you want this problem. Or should I say, this excuse.

  58. @wolf

    You said it yourself, its lightyears easier to game here than in AUS or the UK.  Hell even all of Western Europe.  Older men here with game, middle class and up, who are fit, cool, dress well, social, etc, are some very cool cats.  These guys get laid.  It sounds vastly different in Australia.  And I’ve dated Australian women.  I can’t say I have any desire for them, and would rate them at the bottom of desirability in the world, in every measure.  Since p4p is so prevalent in Australia, I can see how this simping, sugar baby/daddy culture is so pervasive.  Its simply not as big of a problem here.

    Believe it or not, from personal experience, American women can be far less materialistic than their counter-parts in Australia, UK, western and eastern Europe. I know this will ruffle feathers and people will call me crazy, but I dont really care. I have real life experience dealing with this, and I know what the score is.

    I do agree simping behavior is big with older men.  These are usually aging baby boomers who grew up in the sensitive sixties, who have no idea how to interact with women and can be blamed for a lot of the cultural sjw’ism we see today.  These men exist, and I am glad they do.  They take on the ‘gifting’, leaving me to not spend any money on them.  Personally I wish there were more of these simps, so I can be the alternative on a wider scale. And I forsee doing this my entire life, because I have been doing it since the age of 14.

     

  59. A lot of game denialism going on in this thread. It’s nothing more than a refusal to put in the necessary numbers to get the desired results. That guys refuse to put in those numbers and prefer to use money is understandable, but don’t sit there and say it’s not possible.

  60. Two other issues that involve the second question of “Is it realistic/doable with real world realities/limitations” is 1. Prostitution/Escorts (even mentioning money for sex) is illegal in the United States and Canada, and 2. the prices are too expensive in the United States. Like a previous BD article said on “Prostitution” it is illegal in the sex-negative U.S. and it won’t be decriminalized in the U.S. possibly ever because it’s an issue that both extremes are against (both sides want to control the sexuality of other people). I’m in favor of decriminalizing prostitution/escorts in the U.S., but under question number two in this post it has serious limitations. There are some advanced ways around the legality aspect (such as Sugar arrangements, etc, etc), but due to LE concerns those ways cannot be openly discussed on blogs or in public. The media likes to shame the celebrities and others caught in LE stings, but it also seems like especially those people who have a lot of money would know of ways to navigate around those legal aspects to avoid jail/fines, but it appears they didn’t educate themselves on how to be safer legally. The amount of money spent on bail/fines/legal expenses, could have been saved by setting up more private arrangements, traveling to where it’s legal, or having a girlfriend. It’s wrong, but getting a criminal record for wanting to have paid sex in an anti-sex society is unfortunately not worth it. People pay for food/bottled water/clothes/massages/dental/medical/legal/cars/items that you want to buy, but when it comes to sex it’s against the “law” what adults do with the “private parts of their own body.”

    It appears there was prostitution in the U.S. until the Mann Act of 1910, that was used as a fear tactic by calling it the “White Slave Traffic Act” (Christian groups used it to try to convert people), and James Robert Mann said women belonged in the home. When marriage began in Mesopotamia (Iraq) around 5000 years ago Prostitution was legal, and wives were bought. In Judea there was prostitution, and polygamy, and concubines (the number of sex partners was whatever the man could afford). For Christians (from they believe around 33 AD, but it might be when after a Roman Emperor around 500AD began to enforce monogamy to keep the barbarians out of Roman marriages) even Christians used to have arranged marriages where they paid a dowry for a wife until around the 1700’s.  It’s said Western Society is based much on Greece and Rome. In Greece and the Roman Empire Prostitution was legal and accepted. Even in England prostitution is basically legal. The “land of the free” U.S., “Middle Eastern” countries, and Canada (after the religious conservatives recently took over) is where Prostitution/Escorts (paying for sex) is now illegal.

    Agree with it or not, and I don’t agree with it being illegal, paying for sex is illegal in the U.S. now, so it’s a requirement to have to learn “Game” (basically “asking out” women). I’m a natural, have a huge amount of confidence, I always lead the frame of the interaction, plus I know Game (and I have my own very unique Game methods), and I’m still in favor of “paying for it” once and a while (I haven’t paid for it yet, I don’t have to pay for it, but I’m in favor of it being legal to pay for it even though it’s not and won’t be legal in the U.S., and I will pay for it eventually when I travel more). I don’t say compliment openers (I don’t say anything about her looks) for a bunch of reasons including I don’t think that’s direct and I have other ways to show I’m being direct. 9 out of 10 times (unless I happen to be going somewhere where possibly there could be a few dollars spent in those rare instances) usually for an InstaDate or First Date I intentionally spend zero dollars, and a second date usually I intentionally spend zero dollars to $5 or less (unless I’m going somewhere that might cost slightly more). It’s 100% that I will (for a variety of reasons including freedom and financial) never get married (therefore never get divorced). I don’t “slut shame” or “whore shame” and I have a lot of respect for sluts/whores, especially for what they have to put up with in anti-sex/sexually repressive/sex-negative societies. It is possible for an Alpha man to pay for sex and still be an Alpha man. Paying for it would not lower my self-esteem at all, or decrease my views of women or my appreciation of women at all. I’m an easy-going fun guy, and even if I pay for it it’s usually going to be an enjoyable/fun experience for both (it would be rare a girl tried to be rude to me, and even if there was some “acting” most are still going to have more pleasure/overall fun with me than with many other boring guys). I have not paid for it yet, but I’m sure that I will pay for it someday when traveling to where it’s legal to pay for it, and this will be easier for me because I’m not married and never will be married. Formal Sugar arrangements seem too expensive for me (an on going Sugar relationship can easily add up to thousands of dollars, to eventually enough for her to pay for a car and college), and that’s over my head and for that price I would rather simply have a girlfriend. There is benefits to having a “real” girlfriend (I would only give oral to a “real girlfriend,” etc). Not for anyone to start disagreements over prices, but the average Prostitution/Escort price I’ve seen a lot in the U.S. currently is around $500 per hour on up (and many of those I wouldn’t even go near and wouldn’t even let them pay me), and even in the one area where it’s tolerated in the U.S. the price appears to go from $800 to over $1000 (then airfare, hotels, so it’s not worth it to me), and especially in larger U.S. cities High Ends can go between one thousand dollars and three thousand dollars (and that’s just ridiculous). I wouldn’t pay over $300 for a session (and that would only be a rare event if I was traveling and possibly in addition learning a new Tantra technique or something like that). A point is in the U.S. it’s like a $1 drink is intentionally made “illegal” to drive the price up to $100 a drink (traditional marriage is a BIG business). Many people pay $70,000 for a car (such as at an auction) that market value is only worth $8,000, and it has nothing to do with cars or paying for cars, it’s just I won’t pay those marked up too high prices. Therefore, I would want to “pay for it” sometimes IF the price was reasonable, but the price is not reasonable and I won’t pay for it in the U.S. because it’s illegal and bail/police blotter is bad for ones finances, it’s not easy as an Alpha male but I try to stay out of jail, and I won’t be part of outrageous over charged prices. I’m sure some people will want to argue over prices, but I know what I’ve seen (when I’ve looked into this issue), and it depends also on where one lives and other factors. I decided that when I eventually pay for it, there will either be some kind of a not expensive mutually beneficial side arrangement involving our specific very private personal relationship, or the amount that it costs in the U.S. I will save up to travel to other countries where a person can feel free to relax and have fun in an environment of even more amazing beauty and more overall freedom. Also, I know “Game” (meeting women and gradually in a private place escalating to sex) and thus I can meet women in the U.S., but in addition to the U.S. through using “Game” I plan to meet more women from other countries too for their and my happiness.

  61. This is rich. I’ve got a notch count around 50 (there were some fuzzy party years in my late 20’s), and most of them are at least 7’s, some hard 8’s and 9’s thrown in. Several LTR‘s that in there too that I wouldn’t repeat but they were very tasty women, nonetheless. Never married; no kids

    I’m in a place known to be difficult for dating (feminists and social justice headcases) and I’ve always done well, despite phases of lower income due to my former life as a starving artist. I’ve always been considered a cad, and while I still do dumb blue pill things, my reaction to reading the manosphere stuff a few years ago was, “finally, somebody is doing this lifestyle correctly and writing about it.”

    Somebody correct me, but these are my observations regarding alpha/beta here in the manosphere:

    Paying for sex is beta, however…

    Sleeping with 5’s in beta, unless she was an 8 and you grew old together. Of course, being in an MLTR is beta unless you have a PUA blog, in which case it’s alpha as fuck.

    Jerking off is beta

    Sleeping with 8’s or 9’s is beta if you spend too much doing it, or if you fail to “deeply convert” her with your raw masculine dick power. If she leaves your orbit for an alpha you are immediately beta, but of course being “butthurt” about a plate is also beta, so you can’t fight or duel the guy at dawn over her.

    Flirting with women is alpha, but it’s beta to give them compliment not couched in the proper number of negs. Preferred methods seem to entail winking, pointing at concealed firearm, and whispering “Make America Great Again” while thuggishly ordering scotch neat. Ignore most what she says while loudly negotiating your price as a mercenary with the Serbian sitting to your right. Tingles, amirite?

    All women are like that, so be sure to get a prenup – knowing full well they aren’t bulletproof  anyway – and you’ll have to constantly game her to keep your alpha status. If you aren’t man enough to be willing to game her for a lifetime, you are a beta loser fruitcake, never mind that you snagged her in the first place.

    Past performance means nothing. You’re only as good as your current plate(s)

    Snuggling is beta, you fairy!

    2nd prize is a set of steak knives, 3rd prize is “you’re fired”.

     

    Did I miss any?

    Full disclosure: I’ve learned a lot on these blogs and comment threads.

     

  62. A lot of game denialism going on in this thread.

    No kidding.

    Most of these comments are so bad I’m going to have to write a follow-up to this article.

    I’m in a place known to be difficult for dating (feminists and social justice headcases) and I’ve always done well, despite phases of lower income due to my former life as a starving artist.

    Yep. Guys who don’t make excuses always get laid a lot.

    Paying for sex is beta,

    If you can’t get sex otherwise, yes. (I will exempt super old men who are 60+ though.)

    If you can get sex otherwise, and you’re making a rational budgetary and time management decision, then no.

    Sleeping with 5’s in beta

    No, that’s not beta. Alphas bang ugly / average women all the time. I just think it’s not a good idea, long-term.

    being in an MLTR is beta unless you have a PUA blog, in which case it’s alpha as fuck

    Haha. The more right-wing contingent of the manosphere thinks any kind of nonmonogamous relationship is beta, or rather, “cuck,” since the only type of nonmonogamous they can think of is the “one Dominant woman, 2-3 submissive beta males” type of polyamory, which of course I don’t do and would never recommend for anyone.

    Having multiple women in your life is Alpha.

    Jerking off is beta

    Then every man on Earth is beta. Jerking off is an unavoidable biological function.

    However, if you’re jerking off to porn all the time instead of having sex, then yeah, you’re a beta. It’s an issue of degree.

    Sleeping with 8’s or 9’s is beta if you spend too much doing it

    Of course I disagree.

    If she leaves your orbit for an alpha you are immediately beta

    This rarely happens. Women leave Alphas for betas, not the other way around. All these Alphas “stealing” women from betas is a manosphere myth. Women don’t marry the bad boy. (Of course women cheat on betas and fuck Alphas on the side, but that’s not the same thing.)

    but of course being “butthurt” about a plate is also beta

    Yes, that is beta.

    so you can’t fight or duel the guy at dawn over her.

    That’s more right-wing tradcon “everything was so great 100 years ago boo-hoo” bullshit.

    Flirting with women is alpha, but it’s beta to give them compliment not couched in the proper number of negs.

    Haha. Your list is hilarious; I’ve seen this stupid shit too.

    All women are like that, so be sure to get a prenup

    If you get a marriage license, yes, but there are many ways to get married.

    – knowing full well they aren’t bulletproof  anyway –

    That’s why you must check your local laws before you do anything, to make sure the prenup is enforceable. In most areas, they are not, and if you live in those areas, you’ll have to get married some other way, or move.

    and you’ll have to constantly game her to keep your alpha status.

    Bullshit right-wing PUA Alpha 1.0 Guy-Disney. Alphas are worse at maintaining long-term monogamy than betas. It’s idiocy to think otherwise.

    If you aren’t man enough to be willing to game her for a lifetime, you are a beta loser fruitcake, never mind that you snagged her in the first place.

    Tradcon BS.

    Past performance means nothing. You’re only as good as your current plate(s)

    I think they’re both important.

  63. I’m in a place known to be difficult for dating (feminists and social justice headcases) 

    How is that difficult? Those chicks are the easiest ones to get with. Just don’t act like the dudes they hate, but flirt and make moves like normal and boom you’re in there. Most feminists and SJW chicks use their beliefs as a defense mechanism to defend themselves from scrubs and drunken frat boys. Get rid of that defense mechanism and the’ll retract all the horrible things they say about dudes and will all of a sudden act like a 1950s housewife.

    Did I miss any?

    Not really, but its a little more simple than that. I’ve summed it up to if you do anything that the manosphere doesn’t describe as alpha, then you’re beta.

  64. @joelsuf

    Thanks for the tip. Usually I compliment them on their pocket dog or jumbo frappucino flavor choice(s).

    🙂 Been hitting on them for over 20 years, and yeah, I know to avoid the fratty approaches.

    I ran game on a feminazi for over 2 years by braying on with exaggerated alt-right nonsense. She was a standard-issue SWPL Lena Dunham/Amy Schumer worshiper. Fun, but they don’t magically turn into trad housewives just because you run contrast game. Of course I got a great “honeymoon” run out of it, so I have to agree with you in the end. These blue pill SWPL guys are really missing out.

    The less I care about outcome, the better it is; of course since I truly don’t care about the outcome anymore, they thrill isn’t really there. I’d add something about Eastern Philosophy but you catch my drift, I think.

  65. I referred to 2 and 3, you admit to never having sex with a prostitute,

    Correct. I’ve never paid a prostitute for sex.

    (Though I have fucked a at least three escorts for free in my day.)

    Sugar daddy stuff is different because you do not pay for sex directly, although you are expected to pay in other ways.

    Uh, no. Sugar daddy means you’re paying the women for sex. If you have very strong game, you can get around this, but most sugar daddy stuff means yes, you are paying them for sex.

    Please don’t talk about things if you don’t fully understand them.

    You did not have experience being a regular of a prostitute or even fucking a
    prostitute once. So, you did not really ever pay money for sex. Just saying. BD fucked sugar babies for free.

    Go back and re-read that sugar baby post, slowly. I’ve fucked many of them for free, and I’ve fucked a few by paying them. Once again, you’re wrong.

    That is very different from paying for sex, even paying sugar babies for sex.

    Huh? Paying a woman cash for sex is paying for sex. Whether she’s a sugar baby or prostitute is not relevant to you and your frame; it’s only relevant to her. None of the downsides I described in the above article are mitigated by paying a sugar baby for sex vs. paying a prostitute for sex. Either way, you’re paying for sex, and will incur all the negatives I described (eventually).

    (WTF? What the hell are my normally rational commenters smoking this week? Man, this is really weird.)

  66. @WolfOf GeorgeStreet

    Keep up the great comments!!! You are the best commenter here because you are the most sane, realistic and rational one. I know exactly what you are explicitly and even implicitly saying. GAME is a great tool to learn because it helps a lot and one should learn GAME to better his lot in life, but Game only goes so far as sooner or later one hits inherent especially genetic or locale Sexual Market Place limitations. I think it is also possible that the environment one has been raised in damaged one’s psyche which may be beyond recovery as this might explain why Neil “Style” Strauss has largely repudiated his former book, The Game, and re-betaized himself due to his mother divorcing his father and using him as a surrogate husband. For the record, I am all for men learning and practicing GAME and like most of Blackdragon’s system especially because he will state certain truths other manosphere bloggers will not, and adjust his positions or change his mind when he gets better information and finally processes it. Blackdragon is right that his system may not have been necessary for most men to be happy in the 1950s, but it is now.

  67. Whats your take on movies? Is life too short to waste it on stuff like videogames and two hour movies.

    It’s one of my favorite hobbies:

    http://calebjonesblog.com/category/movies/

    I just don’t let it take over my life. One movie theater visit a week is just 2-3 hours out of your week. That’s fine. But if you’re binge watching movie after movie on Netflix, then you’re wasting your life.

    Same goes for video games:

    http://calebjonesblog.com/top-10-computer-games-ive-ever-played/

    I’m playing Pillars of Eternity right now, but I only play about 3-4 times a week for just 1 hour at a time.

  68. Wow thats awesome! Gotta check out some those games! Yea sometimes im lazy depressed or unmotivated i will binge and watch movies for an entire saturday. Gotta fix this problem the main problem i think is depression and video game addiction. Moderation is not an option 3-4 hrs a week and your satiafied . The only option may be to completely avoid it . Abstienence is more suitable than moderation for addicts

  69. Objectively I like and respect your argument. But for a few other reasons (religious/effect of prostitution on women/hit to your own ego) I would say it’s never ok. But I understand that’s my personal opinion and if someone disagrees that’s fine. I don’t care.

  70. Don’t agree with with #1. I don’t know how to farm or hunt, or hell even cook, but I have no qualms about paying restaurants. Likewise I don’t know the first think about building a house, or hell even pitching a tent, but I don’t feel bad about paying rent. What’s different about paying to fullfill this other basic biological need? You again may allude to the apparent effect on self-esteem, but that’s just societal programming. In other times, not being able to farm, hunt, build shelter, etc. would likewise have brought you shame. Sure, knowing that you don’t know how to get laid with cute girls, *could* hurt your psyche, but I don’t think it necessarily will. A counter outlook could be to take pride in all of hard work and/or talent that has allowed to have the financial resources (per requirement #2) to be able to make hot 9s or 10s that would under normal circumstances never give you the time of day bend to your sexual will.

  71. If someone knows a guy in his 50s, 60s or 70s, who’s :– not a rich celebrity and/or a very rich businessmen.– in shape, regularly works out and looks after himself.– regularly having sex with Western only women (not Asian or African women) aged 30 and under and under and isn’t paying them for it, I’d be interested to know. 

     

    ** Raises Hand **

     

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