A lot of you have been bugging me about this, so today I finally spill all the details.

Just about every time I mention that I have an OLTR girlfriend, many of you leave comments asking questions about her or the relationship, and I will get several emails asking questions about this as well. I’ve been holding off giving any specifics about this publicly for a while. This is because I follow my own advice, and don’t consider an OLTR relationship to be solid until many months have gone by and the woman has proven herself to be low drama, a stable person, and strong enough to handle a guy like me in her life for the long-term.

It’s been enough time now where it’s okay for me to talk about her. Though I can’t tell you everything about her or our relationship, I think that giving you the gist of things are important; to show you what I’m doing and what is possible for you if an OLTR is something you’d like to have someday (assuming you don’t already have one; I know many of you do).

As I’ve talked about before, one of the biggest reasons why normal, Societally Programmed people think relationships like this are impossible or unfeasible is because the millions of men who have relationships or marriages like this never reveal it publicly. Most of them are terrified that they will be verbally attacked, shamed, shunned, have their wives/GFs get upset with them, have their friends or family members get upset with them, or worse. And sometimes, they’re right to think these things.

Fortunately, since I’m an Alpha Male 2.0 and outcome independent, I don’t have that problem. I’m happy to share with you what happens, what I do right, and if I make any mistakes. Again, I won’t be able to tell you absolutely everything, since my girlfriend has no interest in becoming a public figure. So while I don’t really care about my privacy, I need to protect hers. So, I can give you general overviews of her and our relationship, but I won’t be able to provide certain details.

Pink Firefly

My girlfriend, Pink Firefly, is a regular reader of this blog and will definitely be reading this post as well as the comments. She’s free to comment below and respond to comments or questions from others if she chooses. (She’s commented on this blog before.)

That’s up to her though; as an Alpha 2.0 I never tell women what to do, so she’s free to participate in the discussion or not. Also remember that as an Alpha 2.0, I don’t care if she disagrees with me, and it’s possible that today or in the future, she may publicly state opinions that I completely disagree with. Fine with me. Just remember that she’s her own person, and though she and I agree on most of the big things, her opinions on the details do not necessarily reflect mine.

Pink Firefly has been in my life for almost three years now. The relationship evolution went like this: she started as a FB (as most women do), we played around for about a year and got along great, then we had about a year where we didn’t see each other (no particular reason; we both got busy with other things/people), then we resumed, and shortly after I upgraded her to MLTR.

Soon after, we had The Talk. A few months after that, we had the OLTR Talk (which is different and more involved than The Talk). She passed both of these talks with flying colors, though not without the typical and predictable problems and adjustment period. I finally upgraded her to OLTR status earlier this year and started introducing her to other people in my life as my girlfriend.

Here are the basics on Pink Firefly:

1. She’s blonde, trim, super hot, and what most men would consider a 9 or 10 unless you don’t like blonde white women. She’s small, which I like, and has big boobs, which I like, but she’s not quite as curvy as I’m typically used to. I’m not going to show you photos at this time so please don’t ask. Firefly and I understand that eventually pictures of her will leak out to the public and that’s fine, but as much as I’d love to brag, I’m not going to showcase her. That’s not the point of this.

Maybe down the road, when she gets more comfortable with all of this, I can show you a few photos, but no promises. I also plan on doing regular YouTube videos at some point, and she may be in some of those. Again, her presence in this business is completely up to her, and I’m not pressuring her either way.

2. She’s 37 years old, though most people assume she’s 27 or 28 because she looks very young. Her age pleases me, since after dating so many women in their 20s, my idea in the last few years was to have a serious relationship with someone closer to my age group.

If you’re wondering, yes, because she’s over the age 33, I had to put up with a bunch of ASD and bullshit when we first met when I wanted to move to sex quickly. It was a long time ago and we joke about it now, but I will never sugarcoat the positives or the negatives of her age. If you want a woman over the age of 33, you’re going to have to put up with ASD and frustrating woman logic regarding dating and sex during the early phases of the relationship; there’s no way around this. If you hate that, then stick with younger women.

3. She’s extremely low drama and a happy person with a cheerful demeanor, even when she’s in a bad mood or had a bad day. For me, this is absolutely required for an OLTR, and it’s her most attractive quality to me by far. Of all her qualities, this is what made me choose her over so many other women. I’m not saying she never has bad days; of course she does. But generally she’s happy and stays that way, just like me.

4. She’s extremely feminine and girly. As I’ve spoken about before, my personal paradox is that, as a more masculine man, I’m extremely attracted to women with hyper-feminine personality traits while simultaneously being a little irritated by those same traits. Regardless, a few years ago I decided that I wanted someone in my life who was on the higher end of the emotional scale, to help balance me out a little (being on the opposite end of that scale myself). A good woman makes you a better man (if you’re very careful and don’t beta yourself, that is).

5. In terms of the three types of women, she’s a Submissive with a dash of Independent. For example, she’s lived completely alone for four years. I’ve met hundreds of women in my life, and I’ve only seen a tiny handful pull this off.

6. She’s a corporate woman with many years of professional experience. She has an impressive resume and is an extremely hard worker. This is another common trait with women I really like and tend to be attracted to. My last serious relationship was with a hardcore worker as well. Since I’m a happy workaholic, I think I relate to hard-working women best, but that’s only a theory.

7. Though she has never been married, she has a history of very long-lasting relationships. This is not required for an OLTR in my opinion, and not something I screen for or give a shit about, but it’s definitely a plus since it adds a few percentage points in our favor in terms of having a long-term relationship.

8. While she wanted some when she was younger, she has no kids and doesn’t want any, since she considers herself too old for those now. Awesome! That’s a big one for me. I’ve already had my children and I’d rather not have any more. Both my kids are adults now (son is 25, daughter is 18), so now I really don’t want any more kids.Like most childless women, she has small dog, and that’s her “kid.” Dogs, even small ones, are a hassle and require time and effort, but I’ll take a dog over child any day.

(Note: She’s a woman, thus, as I talk about in my book, it’s possible that she may change her mind about this kid thing down the road. We’ve had all the necessary discussions about this, and she knows exactly what will happen if she suddenly wakes up one morning and decides she wants kids.)

9. Like me, she doesn’t do any drugs and never has. She enjoys casual wine occasionally but doesn’t get drunk. Very compatible with my no-drugs and no-drinking lifestyle. Whenever she has wine I just drink water.

10. Obviously, she has survived both The Talk and the OLTR Talk, and was able to get through both without being a societally programmed bitch about it. This is absolutely required for an OLTR. While she definitely has some of the usual false Societal Programming about how relationships and marriages are “supposed” to look (she’s a female, and an over-33 one after all), I was still super impressed with her during these talks. She’s an amazing woman.

11. Part of our OLTR talk was that I’m not only a public figure, but one of my businesses is my Alpha Male 2.0 / Blackdragon business. This means that I’m a public figure who regularly talks about dating, relationships, and sex in controversial ways. This is very different than the typical public figure who talks about acceptable, “safe” topics like politics, business, fitness or whatever. (Obviously I talk about business, economics, time management, lifestyle design, and some “safe” topics as well, but that’s not all I talk about.)

Thus, if she ends up as my long-term lady, aspects of her personal life will be scrutinized publicly in a way most normal women will never have to worry about. Aspects of her boyfriend’s personal life (and personal past) will also be public knowledge to a degree. I explained to her that this was a strong negative of being with me, and that if she wanted to be with me long-term, she had to be accepting of this oddity.

She said she could handle it and it would be no problem. I honestly wasn’t sure if she could handle it, but she proved me wrong. She’s already experienced some backlash from her family regarding my blogs and books, since I’m outcome independent and hide nothing. She strongly but politely told her family to F-off and handled it like a boss. That’s not easy, and most women wouldn’t be able to do such a thing. I was very impressed.

The good news is that if you plan on having an OLTR like this, you’ll never need to worry about this particular problem. Likely you’re a normal person who is not talking about his sex life publicly in books or on blogs, and you can promise your current or future OLTR that you’ll keep the controversial aspects of your relationship secret to protect her false Societal Programming. The difficulty bar is raised for me in this respect, but probably not for you (unless you aspire to be a big name in the manosphere or PUA community that is).

12. She has been an avid reader of my blogs and some of my books. Being an over-33 woman, she often disagrees with what I say, but enjoys most of it. Over the last year or so she’s really gotten into this stuff and even cracks jokes about it. (“When I move in with you BD, you won’t be able to soft next me! Mwahahaha!”)

If you add up all of the above traits, it gives you an idea of why she’s qualified for this type of relationship when so many other women in my past were not.

As always, while I’m in love with this woman, I don’t have oneitis. Absolutely nothing about my relationship models, work life, businesses, Mission, or life plans have changed, nor will they, even if she were to demand such a thing (which she has not). Despite the fact that I run three businesses and work seven days a week, the fact that I’m devoted to my Mission, the fact that I’m moving out of the country in 2025 (or sooner!) and she’ll have to come with me if she wants to be with me the rest of her life, and all of the Alpha Male 2.0 lifestyle, sexual, and financial parameters, her and I have had many discussions about this stuff and she’s on board.

The Current Relationship

I’ve disclosed absolutely everything about my life with her, all the good and the bad, and she’s done the same with me. This includes my future plans like moving out of the country in a few years. We are both accepting of the negatives of the other person. Per the 90% Rule, if you want a long-term, consistent relationship, you must accept that there will be some things about that person that will piss you off, since there is no such thing as a perfect person. Otherwise, you should just stay single for the rest of your life, and play around with FBs and MLTRs.

Here’s a few answers to some questions:

What do my family and friends think about all this? She’s my girlfriend, “girlfriend” being the societal name for OLTR, so I’ve accepted this term. We’ve already met each other’s families and both are excited as you might imagine. My parents, friends, and siblings are quite happy now I’m living a more societally acceptable-looking lifestyle. Her parents are happy because she’s with a happy, successful man. Her mom also wants to marry her off, as you might imagine, and is excited about the possibility that Pink Firefly and I will get married. My mom is equally excited and won’t shut up about it.

Regarding both of our mothers, they are upset about this blog and the relationship concepts I talk about here and in my book. This is not a big deal, and I anticipated this.

I love my mom to death and I love my girlfriend’s mom too. They’re both wonderful, intelligent, caring women. They’re also monogamous females over the age of 60, thus they live in a very, very different dating/relationship world than I do, so it’s emotionally difficult for them to understand that I have no desire to be a part of the normal dating/marriage world, a world full of drama, cheating, lying, betaization and divorce. They’ll probably never accept that part of my life, and that’s okay. We all get along and love each other, and that’s the important thing. They also know that Firefly and I will live our lives as we choose regardless of their personal opinions.

What does my daughter think about all this? At 18 years old, Indie has been living with me full time for a year now. She’s ecstatic about me “finally having a real girlfriend,” is full of vicarious Disney, and has been begging me to move Pink Firefly in with us (and marry her, and everything else) for months now. She won’t shut up about “helping Pink Firefly pick out her wedding dress.” Jesus.

What does my son think about all this? Thankfully, like most men, he doesn’t really give a shit about who his dad is dating, just like my brothers don’t really care, yet my sisters are really excited. He’s 25 now, and his focus is exactly where it needs to be: building his business empire. Hopefully he’ll wait a very long time before he decides to co-habit or marry anyone, but that’s up to him.

How often do Pink Firefly and I see each other? Since she’s an official OLTR, the once-a-week rule no longer applies to her. We usually see each other twice a week, and spend the night together on at least one of those two visits. She lives 45-50 minutes away with typical traffic, which is a huge pain in the ass for both of us, but we make it work. We both have very full lives; she works full time and I work seven days a week, but we’re both capable people and we have it all figured out. (It’s a good thing I’m a time management expert.)

Do I follow all the other relationship rules with her? Fuck yes I do. I walk my talk and take my own advice. Everything I’ve ever talked about in terms of relationship management I do with Firefly, even if she sometimes disagrees with it. Since she’s an OLTR, I have compromised a little bit on a few non-major items, since as I’ve talked about before, a little compromise is required if you want an OTLR to last a long time. But beyond that, it’s standard Blackdragon stuff.

Did I have to downgrade a bunch of MLTRs when I upgraded Firefly to OLTR? Luckily, no. I happened to time this right (or I got lucky) in that when I moved Firefly from MLTR to OLTR, I had no other active MLTRs at the time, just a smattering of FBs. Coincidentally, I had downgraded my last MLTR to FB a few months prior to Firefly becoming a MLTR.

I just got lucky with the timing on this. Under normal conditions, yes, I would have had to have some difficult conversations with any active MLTRs and downgrade them to FB because “I have a girlfriend now,” but thankfully I didn’t have to worry about that. I did tell a few of my ex-MLTRs about my new status. A few of them were a little sad but most of them were very supportive. My FBs didn’t give a shit and didn’t even notice, god love ’em.

The Mid-Term Future

Pink Firefly and I are both realistic adults who understand that the odds are decent that this relationship will likely not be for “the rest of our lives” (though that would be nice). This goes back to what I’ve said before about being in love with someone without getting oneitis, delusional, or stupid. It’s quite possible to be head-over-heels in love with someone without getting betaized or making stupid decisions.

Do I plan on moving Pink Firefly in with me? Yes. We’ve discussed it in detail, laid down most of the parameters, and it’s going to happen unless something unusual occurs that changes our plans. We don’t have a date set for this yet, but it will likely be sometime next year. Obviously I’m in no rush, and the longer before this happens, the better. All the OLTR basics are going to be in place. I will be following all the steps I’ve outlined before about what to do when co-habiting with someone.

I will be updating all of you on exactly what happens throughout that process here on this blog. When we have a date scheduled and the process begins, you guys will be the first to know.

Do I plan on marrying her? Will there be a wedding of some kind? The answer I give everyone who asks me this (and I get asked this a lot because of my age) is usually something like, “One step at a time, god dammit.” The summary answer to that question is, if she moves in, and after many months of co-habitation things are still going swimmingly like they are now, and there are no major issues, then down the road, yes. It will be an Alpha Male 2.0 / OLTR marriage of course. TMM doesn’t work any more, and I don’t allow systems in my life that don’t work.

Obviously I couldn’t care less about this kind of thing, but Pink Firefly is a girl, so there you go. Girls like weddings and marriage and I’m flexible. Pink has never been married, so at age 37 she’s obviously chomping at the bit to cross that big Societal Programming item off her Feminine Checklist™.

As of now, I will be giving regular updates regarding our relationship here at this blog (and over at the CJ Blog too). Hopefully this will help convince some of you OLTR doubters that this kind of thing is actually possible for you (though I doubt it will change your mind if you’re one of those forever-angry right-wingers). Regardless, I’m happy to present my new journey to all of you. That’s what this blog is for. If I can do it, you can do it.

I’m happy to answer questions about all this, but just be warned that some of the super private stuff I can’t answer. You are free to ask Pink Firefly questions in the comments as well, but whether or not she answers is completely up to her. (Also remember the Five Simple Rules of this blog when commenting here, which I will be enforcing as always.)

179 Comments on “The Details About My Girlfriend (OLTR)

  1. Hey BD,

    Great to hear about your OLTR.

    I only just found your stuff after following a number of other guys like Rolo and others for a few years. Been reading you for about 4 months now.

    Love your relationship definitions. That has been a real revelation for me even though I sort of fell into it by default anyhow. But it helps so much to have a framework to clearly understand and define what I’m doing.

    I’m 48 Aussie and was married for 20 years. Then had a live in GF for 2.5 years before going breaking free and starting to live a life similar to what you recommend.

    After about a year I met a 20 yo Asian girl through cold approach in a bar and ended up with a FB, then a MLTR and now a live in OLTR.

    I have no intention of getting married again or having children. Which she knows. I already have 4 kids. My eldest is only 3 months older than her.

    But one of the things we have been discussing is the option of a fake marriage if we stay together long enough. Basically all the party ceremony/part of a wedding without the legal side of things. Legally we will be doing the prenup soon regardless as that’s how Australian law works if you live together. She doesn’t care about legal or religious marriage. But she wouldn’t mind doing the whole party celebration thing. I don’t really care either way but I’m not opposed to a fake marriage as such.

    Be interested to hear your thoughts.

  2. Black dragon you have lost your mind OLTR? I’ve been in a long distance relationship with the same girl for three years and she has boyfriend, I live in California and she’s in NY I visit every year. But I mean if you’re happy what can I say.

  3. BD, do you have any ideas on how your logistics with FBs will look like after Firefly moves in with you?

    Also are you still doing your January/February online dating blitz next year for some new FBs or are you happy with FBs you already have in the rotation?

     

    Regards,

    Michal

  4. Good luck, man.

    Sounds like one of your rules is toast. Pink Firefly sounds like she’s smoking hot. Looks like your main girl will be your hottest!

    You know that many of us read this piece looking carefully for information about FB‘s…..you’ve said many times one OLTR/MLTR and one FB is sufficient….your life, bro, but hopefully you keep up a FB rotation. Seduction *sucks* when you’ve been out of the game for a while. Best to keep your skills (and readership) up.

    We’ll definitely want to hear later on about FB management. It’s easy for me to imagine with my current lifestyle having FB‘s….I live alone. It’s much harder with a live in girlfriend! Even if the girlfriend is down for it, seems like it would also be a harder sell for the FB‘s….more plausible deniability for them when you live alone. My impression is most women who are DTF would much rather fuck a player on his bed than a guy with a girlfriend on their shared bed!

    Then again, for 20 years I fucked either my TMM wife or TMM pseudo wife, so what do I know?

     

  5. I really liked this story!  Forgive me if I missed it, but do you know if she is sleeping with anyone else besides you?

    Also, I’m curious too, like JudoJohn brought up…….is she the hottest girl you are seeing/sleeping with, or is your FB hotter?

  6. Actually another question I’m interested in hearing your opinion on.

    I don’t have any FB‘s at the moment on the side of my OLTR. But she is bi. And we are swinging. We have a number of single girls and also couples that we hook up with.

    I’ve told her I’ll fuck any girl I come across if I can and want to. And she can too. She’d rather a girl than a guy so I’m not too worried about that. But I’m not really chasing it and as most guys would know. Without chasing its unlikely to happen.

    On average I get to fuck a new girl at least weekly, usually 2 a week. She is just as keen as me to fuck new girls every week. Through swingers sites, friends, pick ups etc we have quite a few opportunities. More couples than girls (doesn’t worry me) but the girls are there. But we do it together.

    I only let her become an OLTR and move in because she was bi. Before I found your stuff that defined the whole OLTR thing.

    I knew I couldn’t be monogamous and told her so. But the chance to fuck lots of other chicks with her was enough for me to settle for the OLTR thing. Its only been about 6 months and we have fucked about 25 other girls. Some girls I could never have got on my own. So I’m pretty happy with the way things are going.

    But I’d we interested to hear what you think of this side on non-monogamy. 🙂

     

     

  7. I don’t have any FB’s at the moment on the side of my OLTR. But she is bi. And we are swinging. We have a number of single girls and also couples that we hook up with.

    If you don’t have side girls you see alone, she’s not an OLTR…..which is no insult, more power to you, you’re rocking it.

    It took me a long time to get over the idea of my ex’s fucking other men, never mind current women fucking other men. Personally, I couldn’t think of a more effective libido killer than another hard cock in the room, which is a shame, because plenty of women love the two man saw.

    There’s massive drama potential in your life, even if you and your girlfriend are totally solid. That said, I don’t blame you a bit for being happy with the situation! Enjoy!!!

  8. Congrats my man!  Sounds like a pretty solid situation.  I’m not there yet in my journey-still doing the MLTR/FB thing for now which suits me just fine.  It’s good for other guys to see that this setup CAN work if done properly.

    What I find funny is how most SP people will tell you that things like OLTR‘s never work and point to some anecdotal evidence.  My response is always “how well to traditional monogamous relationships generally work out?”  Those have a very high failure rates.  At least with your structures, we can assume it won’t last forever anyway and just enjoy the ride.  I always tell married people who seem to tout the great success of their TMM to  think of how many OTHER relationship fails they had prior to their big “success”.   Let’s assume you’ve dated only 9 people before marrying #10.  That’s a 90% fail rate-not so great.

  9. Those have a very high failure rates.

    Which, in itself, is SP. My first marriage was a success, we just divorced over infertility. Still, we had wonderful times, still care for one another, and are both pursuing our dreams. My second marriage…yes, abject failure. My last LTR of 4.5 years…absolute smashing success.

    I think Dan Savage’s “campsite rule” is a much better metric for measuring success and failure in relationships. Tell no lies, spread no disease, make no babies, break no hearts (as much as is possible)…..leave them better than you found them (or if you’re a guy, have them leave you better than you found them haha so always have other sticks in the fire).

    To define success (and I know you’re not) as one party burying the other seems to me inappropriate.

  10. @JudoJohn

    Yes I was defining “success” and “failure” how the typical SP brainwashed masses would do it.  Just because a relationship ends doesn’t make it failure if you conducted yourself with integrity, remained true to yourself and didn’t intentionally try to harm the other person.

  11. JudoJohn I get where you are coming from. But I could easily have FB‘s on the side. But most of my FB‘s before her were 35-45. I’m 48 and she was 19 when I met her. 20 not long after and now just turned 21. 

    We would prefer girls only but its hard to swing with just girls. They are insanely in hot demand as you can imagine. But we’ve found you can find ridiculously hot young chicks as part of couples. Both of us have come to terms with the other guy fucking her to get the girl (my girl is borderline gay. So she is not keen on the guys buy is ok with it). Doesn’t worry me at all. This is an interesting part of the outcome independence thing. When I’m in some hot 19yo (happened a few times) it somehow doesn’t worry me that her partner is fucking my girl!! 🙂

    There are a lot of distinctions and things I could say about swinging. It’s so fun and interesting. But I’d be interested to hear BD’s view on this sort of non-monogamy as I choose this before I read any of this stuff. But I think it still fits.

  12. I’m 48 and she was 19 when I met her. 20 not long after and now just turned 21.

    Nicely done. Outcome Independence will be key….enjoy this one while you can!

    My last serious LTR, we got together when she was 19, I was 39. After a 4.5 year run, she’s on her way….in fact, she might have just met her unicorn. At 24, she wants to lock down a good man, and start having children before she’s done with her PhD.

    I need to remember not all 24 year old women are this serious. I mean, for the life of me I can’t understand why a woman in her mid to late 20’s isn’t Provider Hunting like a madwoman. Either children are a life goal or they fucking aren’t, but to see women on OK Cupid in their mid 30’s saying “Doesn’t have kids but might want them”……. What. The. Fuck?

  13. That sounds fucking exciting, congratulations!

    It seems like there may be some challenges ahead like someone mentioned. Logistics with FBs is a big one worth considering. With your money I would rent a small one bedroom apartment to take all new and existing FBs. Ideally, if it was me and I had enough money I would live in a whole different city in order to have to have mltrs so they don’t turn over as quickly as FBs, and just go back and forth between the two cities. I’ll be honest and say that the whole FB concept doesn’t seem to make a good fit for me in general, since I tend to want a little more bonding; plus I feel that I can really love more than one woman.

    I’m also curious as to how you will end up managing expenses once she moves in. You admitted in another thread that you would need to spend more while co-habitating with a woman. I wonder how much this will actually “set you back” seeing how work oriented and independent your OLTR is. And not to be negative, but it would also be interesting to see how you would handle the end of the relationship (kicking her out !?)?

  14. When your OLTR moves in, do you foresee arranging a Virtual Live-In OLTR scenario?

    No. I did that with my last girlfriend (HBM) and it worked out great, but this is a different scenario. (Though a Dual Live-In OLTR might be possible.)

    After about a year I met a 20 yo Asian girl through cold approach in a bar and ended up with a FB, then a MLTR and now a live in OLTR.

    That’s wonderful, but since you asked for my thoughts, 20 is way too young for a live-in OLTR in my opinion. She’s a still a teenager (yes, 20-21 is still a teenager). She’s not the woman she truly is yet. Over the next three years, she’s going to radically change, and change her mind on some major things in her life, including you. She’s not done “forming” until she’s at least 23, likely 24.

    If you don’t mind that she’s probably going to move out in a few years, then go for it. If you do mind, you need to make some changes. Read this post for more information on that.

    Those shoes look painful.

    Chicks, man.

    Black dragon you have lost your mind OLTR?

    No.

    I’ve been in a long distance relationship with the same girl for three years and she has boyfriend, I live in California and she’s in NY I visit every year.

    If she’s just a FB, then great. If she’s anything beyond a FB, then you’re doing a very stupid thing. Read this.

    BD, do you have any ideas on how your logistics with FBs will look like after Firefly moves in with you?

    Yes. I have it all planned out.

    Also are you still doing your January/February online dating blitz next year for some new FBs or are you happy with FBs you already have in the rotation?

    No blitz next year, thank goodness. I’m happy with what I’ve got. As always, as a Pleasure of Sex man, my goal is to have to go look for new women as least often as humanly possible. I’ve more or less hit that goal quite a while ago.

    Sounds like one of your rules is toast. Pink Firefly sounds like she’s smoking hot. Looks like your main girl will be your hottest!

    Whoever said that? (She is super hot though; I think about her sexually more than any other woman.)

    You know that many of us read this piece looking carefully for information about FB’s

    You’re not going to hear much about those. Sorry.

    you’ve said many times one OLTR/MLTR and one FB is sufficient

    I said that’s sufficient for most men. Not all men.

    The problem with having literally just one FB is that you have to constantly be on your toes and ready to replace her whenever she LSFNTEs you, which she will eventually. A better model for busy, high sex drive men is to have at least two FBs. That way if one vanishes you’re not suddenly de facto monogamous. (Shudder!)

    hopefully you keep up a FB rotation

    Not hopefully. I will. I follow my own advice.

    Seduction *sucks* when you’ve been out of the game for a while.

    I know. That’s why I will never be 100% monogamous.

    Even if the girlfriend is down for it, seems like it would also be a harder sell for the FB’s….more plausible deniability for them when you live alone.

    My FBs are all women I’ve known for a quite a while, all of them know I have a girlfriend, absolutely none of them give a shit, and pretty much all of them have boyfriends themselves whom they’re cheating on. (Ah, monogamy.)

    Forgive me if I missed it, but do you know if she is sleeping with anyone else besides you?

    That’s a personal question about her. She’s certainly allowed to if she wants to and follows the usual rules.

    is she the hottest girl you are seeing/sleeping with, or is your FB hotter?

    Every woman I have sex with is very hot (at least to me). I’ve been doing this a long time so my standards are very high these days. In terms of “hotter,” my FBs are all much younger. I think a lot of guys (like Chris) would say that younger automatically equals hotter, assuming looks are about equivalent. I’m not quite in that camp, but there you go.

    As I said, Pink Firefly is the woman I’m most sexually attracted to (this could be explained by physical attraction, or love, or NRE, or a combination; not sure; it’s hard to analyze your own feelings), and physically, she’s the exact type of woman I like (since I was very young). She literally looks like the hot blondes I used to lust over in 1980s movies when I was a teenager. But if you wanted more detail on exactly which of my current women is the “hottest,” that’s a tough one since every man has a different opinion on who would be the “hottest.” I think Pink Firefly is the hottest, but I know many readers may disagree. I’d have to put up full-body pics of Firefly and every one of my FBs, and list their ages, and we’d all have to analyze it. Obviously I can’t do that.

    A 37 year old 9 or 10? Sounds like quite the unicorn.

    No.

    1. She is not a unicorn, because there is no such thing. She has several flaws that bother me. She’ll tell you the same about me. Unlike most men, I don’t look for perfection, since perfection doesn’t exist. I instead look for a few key traits that I consider mandatory, and allow for flaws, even big flaws, in all the other areas.

    2. I didn’t say she was a 9 or 10. I said most men would consider her a 9 or 10, because they would. Some men (and possibly you), would instantly disqualify her as anywhere near 9 or 10 just because she’s over 30. Other men would complain her boobs are too big, or her hair is too blonde, or whatever. As I’ve discussed in detail before, the 1 to 10 scale is completely subjective, since you could fill a room with women of the same age, facial symmetry, and hip-to-bust ratio, and we’d still have different opinions on which ones were 9s, 10s, 7s, whatever.

    If you don’t have side girls you see alone, she’s not an OLTR…..which is no insult, more power to you, you’re rocking it.

    He’s a swinger. It’s a different category. I would never do it because it’s too close to monogamy and I don’t like too many rules in my relationships, but I know a lot of couples who really enjoy the swinger lifestyle. And as I always say, anything is better than absolute monogamy.

    I’m not there yet in my journey-still doing the MLTR/FB thing for now which suits me just fine.

    Hey, many men should indeed never have an OLTR, and just stick with MLTRs and FBs for the rest of their lives. MLTRs and FBs are awesome! To each his own.

    What I find funny is how most SP people will tell you that things like OLTR’s never work and point to some anecdotal evidence.  My response is always “how well to traditional monogamous relationships generally work out?”  Those have a very high failure rates.

    They do, but a growing percentage of the population don’t care. They don’t give a shit if they get divorced or have some major explosion in their relationship (like cheating) as long as it happens “down the road.” I talked about that here.

    No one can argue that long-term monogamy works any more, so instead they backtrack to the next worst thing, and imply that it “doesn’t matter” if you get divorced and ruin your life and the lives of your kids, as long as it happens “later.”

    My first marriage was a success, we just divorced over infertility.

    Therefore it was not a success. Unless, on your wedding day, you planned on getting divorced eventually.

    You’re a perfect example of what I just said. Since marriage doesn’t work any more, people are now changing the definition of what a “successful marriage” is, which is “a temporary marriage that lasts as long as I want it do, then I go through a divorce and suffer all the usual problems because of it.”

    It seems like there may be some challenges ahead like someone mentioned. Logistics with FBs is a big one worth considering.

    I will answer all of your questions regarding live-in logistics in a future article, when Firefly actually moves in with me. As I said, I have all of these things planned out in detail.

    As I keep saying, one step at a time…

  15. I’ve met hundreds of women in my life, and I’ve only seen a tiny handful pull this off.

    I call bullshit. I’ve met many women (including my mother) who have lived alone for 4+ years just fine.

  16. Both my kids are adults now (son is 25, daughter is 18)

    Did you have your son really early or before marriage? Aren’t you in your 40s?

  17. Congrats my man. I’m 100% the OLTR guy myself, always have been. However, the word ‘marriage’ always gives me an enormous resistance. So much so that I even made it a part of my code to never ever… maybe some years from now when I’m in my forties I’ll have a more relaxed view on this.
    Good point about the public thing, as I’m planning to create content myself in 2017 and to go more public. Hadn’t really considered it from the future’s OLTR woman’s side (and her family) in that way. (To give you an idea, I’m kind of a James Marshall meets Rocco Siffredi, since my past working as an actor will also become more known and public, including my further future ambitions in the industry.) I’m no Tom Torero mind you, I love the guy, but being a perpetual player isn’t my cup of tea. I’m really a MLTR/FB and OLTR guy while living a digital nomad lifestyle. So I’ll create more of a “future challenge” but then again, isn’t being true to yourself the most important thing? I think so.
    Curious what your thoughts are about this.
     

  18. Hah, it was your GF I was headbutting last time and I didn’t even know it. Awesome!

    I can’t imagine wanting to settle for an OLTR. My young age and cold calculating persona (Which makes me emotionally reclusive) is probably the cause of that. Meh…

    Youtube just got a bit shittier. Back when I was younger and considering becoming a professional youtuber, it bugged me knowing my financial stability was gonna be in the hands of another company (google).

    Anyways, good luck with your OLTR. I imagine the family talks to be very hilarious from an outsider’s perspective:

    “Oh, you have a blog? What do you write about?”

    Redpill sitcom, starring BD…just imagine!

  19. @Blackdragon

    So you have oneitis but only at 89%?  =))  (those that have read your 90% article would get this)

    All I gotta say about living with someone in their late 30s-40s is watch out for the medical shit!  I too decided to try the OLTR recently and 6 months later she found out she may have an early on set of pre-menopause.  It can literally change their personality and really sucks balls.  Kinda sad really when you care for someone.  You can’t stay cuz then she will never respect you and it will drive a man insane.

    So, if the odds are more than 2% (another article of yours lol) that she could need an hysterectomy or start pre-meno phase soon, I would be very careful.  Now, if a chic has already been threw this phase and has hormones all figured out, much easier.

    This is another reason I think there is the 33-36 age range that makes women seem plain nuts or crazy cuz of this stuff going on with their bodies.  Almost better off doing a live in OLTR with someone way before this phase or wait til its over!  Good luck!  The upside is the crazy wild sexathons we did so there is some great benefits too live in too.

    If I live with a chic again, It will probably be a Duplex to secure that outcome independence even more =))

  20. Those shoes look painful.

    After reading the entire article, all you could talk about are the shoes?! That’s funny! As far as the shoes being painful, sometimes beauty is pain!

  21. The other issue I have with how we usually determine who we are going to make a live in  OLTR is this:

    The reason or logic of living together is usually because things are so freaking awesome with this person right.  Lets assume there is an awesome scale of 1-10.  Typically, our Man Logic tells us she needs to be a 9 or 10 for us to even consider this option correct.

    But then that begs the question – if it is so great now what are the odds that it will/can go up OR even stay level once you live together?   Considering that relationships typically get worse or more complicated once 2 people live together, that seems to be counter intuitive to me.

    Maybe we should be picking our live in OLTRs that are around a 6 or 7 on the awesome scale versus at the Peak (9 or 10) cuz there is nowhere to go from there but DOWN!

    It’s kinda like those guys that meet a new chic and will date them hard and spend all kinds of $ on fancy dates, trips, gifts etc in order to obtain the prize (her).  They go full throttle!  Like they are on the Bachelor TV show.   Cloud 9.  This phase could last 2-3 years even and normally does.

    Well, now they move in together or get married (conquer her) and what could possibly be better than when they were before that occurred?  Nothing really.  So it can only go down from that exciting start in HER mind.  This is why I steadily do more exciting things, formal events, trips after I know them 6 months to a year and GRADUALLY.  I start way down and very slow and build up versus high.

    If I ever do a live in OLTR again, it would be a Duplex, apartments very close together or I’d build my own man cave cabin/house so each person had there own room and bathrooms.  It would help each have their own privacy and could simulate the excitement of the dating game a lil more and prevent boredom that sets in when both share too much space together.   It also prevents ladies from ever using the control card cuz they know everybody hates to move and they love to be able to kick us out.  Ok, fine I will go next door or across the hall lmbo.

    But I am not done yet!  The Duplex or close apartments/homes idea sounds more logical too if you add to this equation the non-mong aspects of an Alpha 2 lifestyle and being truly Outcome Independent (for medical or unforeseen issues even).  Say one of you wants to have another person over?   It also seems like it could help facilitate threesomes with our main chic as well.

    I have seriously considered buying an older home in the city with an upstairs area or garage apartment for this purpose.  I love vacation rentals too so it could have dual benefits.  Something that can easily be made into a rentable space on AirBnB for extra rent (in case she moves out) and has an separate exit/entrance too.   Think about that for a second!  Your living together but your not lol.   How sweet would this be for some sexy threesome stuff, 90+% outcome independence and could help me pay off house faster by renting out if she moves out.  She could never bitch about anything you do in your home and vice versa.   Totally takes away that control mechanism you see when each is invading each others space.  Not quite as bullet proof as 2 people finding a Duplex (and each paying for their own side) but still interesting and am about to find out soon enough just as you are BD!  Very best wishes to ya on it man….

  22. I call bullshit.

    I call sensitivity.

    I’ve met many women (including my mother) who have lived alone for 4+ years just fine.

    In terms of women under 60, I’ve met exactly three in my entire life, and I’ve known/met literally hundreds of women.

    I might be forgetting about some old, over 60 spinsters I’ve met, but even those usually live with friend, sister, etc.

    Did you have your son really early or before marriage? Aren’t you in your 40s?

    Yes. He’s biologically my ex-wife’s son and he became my son when I married her when he was 5 and I was 25.

    However, the word ‘marriage’ always gives me an enormous resistance.

    Me too. Even saying the word is hard. I usually call it “M” and call engagement “E.” Firefly loves it when I do that. 🙂

    So much so that I even made it a part of my code to never ever… maybe some years from now when I’m in my forties I’ll have a more relaxed view on this.

    My code is that marriage is allowed, but as I define it, not the fundamentally broken system society recommends. As I’ve talked about before, the vast majority of men, including players, PUAs, Alphas, manosphere guys, etc, will want to settle down with a woman in some form or fashion as they climb into their 40s and beyond. We need a safe mechanism for modern-day men to do that (OLTR marriage being one option, though there are others).

    So I’ll create more of a “future challenge” but then again, isn’t being true to yourself the most important thing? I think so.
    Curious what your thoughts are about this.

    The most important thing is your Mission, so you must start there. If your Mission truly involves talking publicly about your relationship life, than any woman entering into your life must be cool with that, or else she needs to find a normal beta and be with him instead. She doesn’t have to love it, or love every aspect of it, but she needs to be accepting of it. It’s similar to women who marry public figures, or politicians, community leaders, etc. There are benefits and drawbacks, and such a woman needs to accept one to benefit from the other.

    Pink Firefly is Jessica Six

    Heh. I think I know who you are. To clear things up…

    1. I know who Jessica Six is.

    2. Pink Firefly is not Jessica Six.

    3. Though their look is similar and I understand the confusion, Pink Firefly has a much hotter face than Jessica Six. Jessica’s body is fantastic but her face is very plain. Firefly has a fantastic body and face.

    Youtube just got a bit shittier. Back when I was younger and considering becoming a professional youtuber, it bugged me knowing my financial stability was gonna be in the hands of another company (google).

    I’ve been talking about YouTube’s increasing censorship over at my other blog. And yeah, it’s getting worse. They just shut down Bearing’s YouTube channel and Pewdiepie is bitching about their new algorithm and how they’re magically de-subscribing people. What a cluster fuck. I will be doing YouTube videos at some point soon but I’ll have to mirror them on Vimeo or my own website and not consider the YouTube adverting revenue as anything I can rely upon.

    Such a pain in the ass, but such is yet another reality of our new left-wing world.

    “Oh, you have a blog? What do you write about?”

    “I have three blogs. One is about lifestyle design for men, the other is about economics and politics, and I have a business blog. I write about a lot of things.” 🙂

    Redpill sitcom, starring BD…just imagine!

    One of my fantasies that will never happen is to do a BD version of Curb Your Enthusiasm; a YouTube sitcom series about an silly/exaggerated version of my life that’s completely ad libbed by the actors. I’ll never do it because it wouldn’t make any money, but man, it’d be so much fun.

    So you have oneitis but only at 89%?  =))  (those that have read your 90% article would get this)

    Haha. Cute.

    I have 0% oneitis but 100% love, 100% horniness, and about 70% NRE. 🙂

    So, if the odds are more than 2% (another article of yours lol) that she could need an hysterectomy or start pre-meno phase soon, I would be very careful.

    Dude. She just turned 37. She’s not 47.

    And yes, her hitting premature menopause eat any time in the next few years is not something I’m worried about or can control.

    sometimes beauty is pain!

    I’m so glad I’m a guy.

  23. Pain is beauty

    Uh, there was nothing to fix actually. Beauty is pain, pain is beauty isn’t that the same thing?

  24. @Blackdragon –

    From WebMD:

    “Menopause usually starts in a woman’s 40s, but can start in her 30s or even earlier. Perimenopause lasts up until menopause, the point when the ovaries stop releasing eggs. In the last 1 to 2 years of perimenopause, this drop in estrogen speeds up. At this stage, many women have menopause symptoms.”

    The lady I made a live in OLTR was 34 and her early phase already begin to kick in (which can last years), which is very rare and is called Addison’s Disease.

    I would require full disclosure on all medical issues if I ever moved in again with anyone but even doing that doesn’t help because there is still Murphy’s Law at work too lol.

    Maybe it’s just my luck but it seems many women over 35-45 have lots of meds or issues!  I just take Ritalin for occasional focus and Ambien for sleep and I am 41 and great health.   I dated some chics on like 5 or 7 meds and they are 29!  WTF?

  25. I forgot something funny on this topic.  Or sad or both….

    A friend of mine decided to move in with his OLTR and they hashed over EVERY tiny detail at length and were very analytical.  They covered every issue.  At least they thought.

    Well, it was like 3 months after they moved in together that his GF decided to become a travel nurse and took a night shift RN job that was 1.5 hours away and had to begin setting her alarm on snooze to go off every 5 mins for 1 hour so she could wake up!  Each new alarm on the 5 minute trigger made a different and annoying sound too.  Her shifts were 12 hours each and usually 3 in a row so she only got about 5 hours of sleep in between.  There goes 50% of his sex life down the drain with her.

    He begged her to do something different cuz that alarm was driving him nuts and waking him up etc.  But she would not / could not find any other way to wake up unless HE was the one to wake her up lol.

    This one tiny issue lead to many others and he eventually moved out.  Sounds like Jerry Seinfield kinda but just shows you how we can cover everything and sometimes the small shit is what does it all in =))

  26. Father goes: “Oh really? Let me check that lifestyle design blog.”
    *reads*


    *reaches for shotgun*

  27. Going to the chapel and you’re gonna get marrrrried…… Awwww you found your girl that’s *not like the rest. Haha!

    Of course you picked someone who played the ASD card. Madonna/whore is still in effect. Eye roll. That’s how women land marriage partners. Never seems to fail.

    I don’t think you answered if she is fucking other people but based on the above I’m going to assume no and that you couldn’t handle it. Glad that you are happy though.

    Also, what is this about it being rare for a woman to live alone 4 years? I know lots of women who have done that, including myself. Hell I’ve lived alone with my kids for 6 years and bought my own home and have met many other women that are sole homeowners.

  28. Also you all talking about menopause at 37 are tripping. I’m 40 and nowhere close as far as I can tell. I do have some mood swings around my period but that was happening when I was a teenager too. I’m more careful and aware now. I was pregnant, nursing and not having periods for like most of my 20s and part of my 30s so I can’t speak for that. Were not all on drugs or meds either

  29. @Lovegirl

    Can you forward a picture and do u come to OKC much? :))

    Menopause story was actually about “pre” menopause phase that caught both of us off guard. I’m sure it’s rare but boy did it freak me out. How someone so sweet and nice could turn so evil and mean within 6 months of me moving in. I was paranoid it was all a scam but I went w her to the DR’s. But either way, I had to get out. We still date to this day but probably wouldn’t if I didn’t pull the plug in the middle of her crisis.

    U like Duplexes? 🙂

  30. CurtsNOKC – Lay off the Ritalin dude. It’s making you paranoid.

    Of course you picked someone who played the ASD card

    Says the woman who constantly screams on this blog about how men need to pay for dinner and/or drinks for you before you’ll have sex with them.

    I don’t think you answered if she is fucking other people but based on the above I’m going to assume no and that you couldn’t handle it.

    I’m going to assume that’s sarcasm.

    Also, what is this about it being rare for a woman to live alone 4 years? I know lots of women who have done that, including myself. Hell I’ve lived alone with my kids

    You’re not living alone if you live with kids.

    You’ve never lived alone for 4 years. Thus my point.

  31. I don’t scream about anything. Nice try at characterizing me that way though. I don’t have a shred of asd when out with a guy. I simply think it’s the mans job to do those things. Not interrelated.

    Sooo is she fucking other men?

    Curtis- Im headed to Houston tomorrow, I’ll be flying right over your head. Maybe next time 😉

  32. All I gotta say about living with someone in their late 30s-40s is watch out for the medical shit! 

    Many women in their 30’s or 40’s do not have medical issues and a good majority of women do not get pre-menopause. It’s not realistic to think that just because a woman may be in their 30’s, she will automatically have medical issues. Women in their 20’s have medical issues and in fact anyone of any age can have medical issues. You can’t judge someone just because of their age.  

    I would require full disclosure on all medical issues if I ever moved in again with anyone

    I don’t think too many women would like that you request a full disclosure of their medical issues before they move in with you. It would be like me asking BD for his full medical history before we moved in together, it’s a little weird. If something should come up medically with BD for example, I would be there for him because medical issues are usually out of our control.

  33. @blackdragon –

    Another thing is since your self employed too like me, you better think long and hard about your work space!

    We had this loft wide open floor plan and so office was in the open and kinda a shared work space. BAD FUCKING IDEA. You need your own space and she needs hers. Same goes for bathroom in my opinion lol.

  34. @Pink Firefly

    I agree the medical issue is tricky.
    So what about sharing STD tests w the person your moving in with?

    Is that stuff also confidential?

    Maybe it’s the State I am in or the air but damn I’ve seen Cancer, Alcoholics, Depression, on and on and on while dating. But your talking to someone that would do a full background check, medical check and polygraph IF I ever got married and or moved in w anyone again. told my son same thing. There is a fine line here that’s very tricky for sure…but I have kids too so have 2 reasons to be extra safe.

  35. Uh, there was nothing to fix actually. Beauty is pain, pain is beauty isn’t that the same thing?

    Nope!

    Beauty is pain -> Being beautiful is painful

    Pain is beauty -> If it’s painful, it’s beautiful

    Or, the first one says “beauty is painful, but not all painful things are beautiful”

  36. I think Lovegirl got a little jealous LOL.

    Great post BD, I currently have a 28yo, 1.5 years very low drama OLTR with some FBs too, questions:

    1. Should you introduce your OLTR as girlfriend or still someone you are dating (if she haven’t demanded or made a fuss about it yet)

    2. How do you deal with photos of you both that she posts on FB and tags you in? (currently she put them in private mode for only us to see, but I believe someday she will want to make them visible for friends)

    3. Should you share your relationship mindset/technique with your OLTR (like soft nexting, attraction vs compliance, LSNFTE…)

    4. What are the most significant rules you compromise for this OLTR, beside of once-per-week meet?

  37. @lovegirl

    Why would someone living an non monogamous Alpha 2 lifestyle ask her if she’s screwing other guys?

    And it be odd too if Pink firefly volunteered to him that she was not screwing other guys too lol.

    If that was my main chic, I’d almost cover my ears so I could claim I didn’t hear it cuz then I’m afraid it start my regression back to beta days.

    It’s a moot point 🙂

  38. Beauty is pain -> Being beautiful is painful
    Pain is beauty -> If it’s painful, it’s beautiful
    Or, the first one says “beauty is painful, but not all painful things are beautiful”

    I think it’s fair to say you’re nitpicking at this point! 

  39. Not at all. They say completely different things. The second says “all painful things are beautiful”. Very different from “all beautiful things are painful”.

  40. I think Lovegirl got a little jealous LOL.

    That’s what I was thinking.

    Great post BD, I currently have a 28yo, 1.5 years very low drama OLTR with some FBs too

    Cool. I love to hear about all these other guys with OLTRs. Too many of you are silent!

    1. Should you introduce your OLTR as girlfriend or still someone you are dating (if she haven’t demanded or made a fuss about it yet)

    That’s up to you, but identifying an OLTR as “girlfriend” is okay. I’ve always treated it as a kind of reward. Just about every woman wants the guy she’s with to call her “girlfriend.” It’s a big deal to women. So to me, it’s a title she earns and achieves by being with me for a long time with no LSNFTEs and with near-zero drama.

    2. How do you deal with photos of you both that she posts on FB and tags you in? (currently she put them in private mode for only us to see, but I believe someday she will want to make them visible for friends)

    If you’re like me and don’t sarge for new women very often, then it’s fine. The only other women you should be seeing are FBs, so they either shouldn’t care, or if they care, that’s their problem. The FB photo stuff is only dicey with MLTRs, but you can’t have any of those in an OLTR.

    When Pink Firefly actually posts pics on my personal Facebook page, my FBs, the ones who are Facebook friends with me that is (since most are not), won’t give a shit. If anything, it will probably turn them on more because of the social proof. (Firefly is very hot.)

    If you’re more of a variety guy or Thrill of the Hunt guy, or if you’re a more public figure, then yeah, you’ll have to set up specific rules about when she tags you and when she does not. Just work it out with her. It shouldn’t be any big deal if she’s a chill gal.

    Frankly, I’m only on my personal FB page about once a month, so I don’t really give a shit about this FB stuff. But that’s me. My family will be the ones most excited to see me lovey-dovey with Firefly on FB more than anyone else.

    3. Should you share your relationship mindset/technique with your OLTR (like soft nexting, attraction vs compliance, LSNFTE…)

    No, don’t verbalize that stuff. That will simply create arguments. (Honestly, how is the concept of soft next going to sound good to a woman???) Instead, let her discover those things through your behaviors with her. Women are very smart and pick up on this stuff very fast… usually faster than men. You won’t need to verbalize anything.

    If she’s low-jealousy (and many women are not), you can verbalize stuff about how you manage FBs if you really want to, but don’t verbalize your OLTR relationship management techniques (unless she’s already been with you many years and has experienced all of it already).

    4. What are the most significant rules you compromise for this OLTR, beside of once-per-week meet?

    None. There are no significant rules I will ever compromise on. Significant rules should not be compromised.

    If you’re talking about a few of the non-significant rules I’ve compromised on with her, the only ones I can think of are:

    – She can see me more than once a week.

    – We can communicate every day if she wants. We don’t communicate literally every day, but we certainly communicate more often than any MLTR I’ve ever had, by far, and that includes my OLTRish relationship with my last girlfriend (HBM). This is probably the biggest change I’ve made.

    – Several months ago Firefly asked me to not fuck strippers, and I shrugged and agreed. She has a thing about that I guess. I dislike strip clubs and I don’t make a habit of fucking strippers (though I have in the past), so it’s not really a compromise for me, but I guess technically it’s a rule I agreed too.

    Firefly likes strip clubs though; we went to Crazy Horse in Vegas, and she got pissed because none of the strippers came over to talk to us or give us lap dances, yet they talked to literally everyone else at all the other tables around us. They must have been intimidated by how she looks, or thought I was paying her or something, because she when went to go to the bathroom, two strippers immediately came over and talked to me while I was alone. Hilarious.

    Anyway, when Pink and I move in together, there will be another few things I’ll have to compromise on, obviously. I’ll talk about that more then. But for the moment, there isn’t that much other than the OLTR basics.

    As I talk about in my book, the one of the three relationship objectives for the Alpha 2.0 is to have a minimum number of rules. That applies to both the man and the woman.

  41. Not at all. They say completely different things. The second says “all painful things are beautiful”. Very different from “all beautiful things are painful”.

     I don’t agree, so I guess we’ll agree to disagree. This is so silly and so irrelevant to the topic of the blog post. This is my last comment about your nitpicking. Time to move on, maybe you should too. 

  42.  

    Societal Programming is very relevant when it comes to shoes.  The biggest part of our foot is in the front, and yet we wear shoes with pointed toes and a heel and thick sole, which we don’t need, purely out of tradition and appearance, warping our bodies in the meantime.  25% of our joints are below the ankle, and we have as many nerves in the feet as in our face.  Yet we bind our feet like girls in 10th century China.  Sorry, I like to invoke a little Katy Bowman.  Back to your regularly scheduled program.

     

  43.  I don’t agree, so I guess we’ll agree to disagree. This is so silly and so irrelevant to the topic of the blog post. This is my last comment about your nitpicking. Time to move on, maybe you should too. 

    Correct, this has very little to do with the blog post. But I fail to see how you can disagree there’s a difference, which is why I’m still taking about it. Maybe changing the words will make what I’m saying more clear:

    Statement 1: All red things are triangles.  (Beauty is pain)

    Statement 2: All triangles are red. (Pain is Beauty)

    Those do not at all say the same thing.

    In statement 1, if I have a red thing then I know it’s a triangle, but if I have a triangle I don’t know if it’s red or purple.

    In statement 2, if I have a triangle I know it’s red, but if I have a red thing I don’ t know if it’s a triangle or a square.

  44. Sooo is she fucking other men?
    Jealous of what? What on earth would I have to be jealous of? Lol
    I just think it’s funny seeing how BD has changed his tune.

    And back on topic, I’m not sure I see where he’s changed his tune. Is she fucking other guys? Maybe, maybe not. Who cares? It’s none of our business. She’s allowed to, as BD has said.

  45. Good to hear about your OLTR. I wouldn’t mind getting one here in the cold, dark winter of Scandinavia. Unfortunately, my drama tolerance goes way down as well, so that seems unlikely. Spent a night with some of my friends, and they both complained about their bitchy girlfriends.. Glad it’s not me.

     

    @CurtsNOKC

     I just take Ritalin for occasional focus and Ambien for sleep and I am 41 and great Health.

    I hope you’re not using Ambien (Zolpidem) on a regular basis – The effect on sleep only works for 14 days. Longer than that, you’re sleeping just as bad and the only thing you’re getting is side-effects (addiction, drowsiness during daytime).

  46. BD version of Curb Your Enthusiasm

    Maybe an idea to write a manuscript and sell it? 

    When it comes to facebook, have you put ‘in a relationship’ or ‘in an open relationship’ ? Would just love to choose the last option myself, sit back and imagine people’s eyeballs pop out. Nice.

    Great age btw, I love women in the 37+ age range myself IF they’re cool. Two women that have been in my life for the last 12 years or so in open marriages are these kinda gals. The best kind ever IMO. It’s what created my template of what I want later in life… when I’m old 🙂 Hot as hell, amazing personalities and open minded as fuck. Just the way I like it. And about the young looks – IMO women who ‘look’ 40 can be hot as hell to me. You can leave out the (almost approval seeking) “but she looks like 27!” part, so that many guys on here will go “Ok, then it’s cool.” I never got the babyface fetish most guys have, but I’m not like most guys. Rosemund all the way.

    Anyway, what I’m curious about: PF started out as an FB and not an MLTR? Because of her age or…? I ask this because you always write that the woman puts herself in either the FB or MLTR category (in this case as an over-33 who puts herself in the FB category, which is unusual) or she becomes an FB because you don’t consider her relationship material. My best guess is that she was part of your social circle, knew her from work (after the task was completed) and became an FB… but why no MLTR? Just asking for my own educational purposes 🙂

     

     

  47. Congrats man!

    If it took so many years for the relationship to grow to OLTR, I think its safe to overstretch MLTR and FB relations as long as you want before moving a woman up to OLTR status(and not rush as most men do).

    I currently have one FB and one MLTR and MLTR seems OLTR material, she’s been more than 6 months with me without much fuss, but I have no desire any time soon to upgrade any woman to OLTR status.

    Isn’t it better for men to forget OLTR and stay with FB/ MLTR until they hit their goals in important areas of their life(financial being the major?). Not sure if  you mentioned that, but your general rule is to upgrade a woman(to OLTR) only if she is low drama, you really like her and you’ve been with her more than 6 months(and she survived the Talks). But isn’t the most important of all, for the man to hit his major goals before moving to such a relationship? Otherwise such relationship is destined to fail sooner than later?

  48. Lovergirl, can you explain what you meant by this ?

    Going to the chapel and you’re gonna get marrrrried…… Awwww you found your girl that’s *not like the rest. Haha!
    Of course you picked someone who played the ASD card. Madonna/whore is still in effect. Eye roll. That’s how women land marriage partners. Never seems to fail.

    Maybe it’s that english is my third language and I’m having trouble understanding the sarcasm other than that it’s sarcasm. Anyway, I’m not used to seeing you that passive-aggressive, for a sec I thought it was another commenter. What’s bugging you about BD’s OLTR (I’m not picking a fight, just puzzled) ?

  49. BD must have been feeling really good when the strippers were intimidated to come up to them; only because strippers are usually really hot and young and instead they were intimidated by a hot, 37-year old girl!  I love it!…….giving these younger girls a little healthy competition!  (Also, I guess I wouldn’t call us girls old either, I just meant we’re older than we used to be, but we aren’t old yet)   ……..and I’m glad BD agreed not to sleep with strippers – it just sounds like a good idea.

  50. Nothing is bugging me about BD’s OLTR. I’m just pointing out that he is sprung and starting to compromise. I think it’s cute. He’s even talking about MARRIAGE for Christ’s sake and letting a woman tell him what to do (not fuck strippers,etc). It’s not sarcasm, I’m ribbing him about it.

    I find it entertaining that he fell for an over 33 year old that he describes as having had asd when he went on and on about how he would not keep seeing a woman who did that in the beginning. I also am rolling my eyes because men, in general, do that- they SAY they want women who put out quickly but they won’t consider her serious relationship material and BD is doing the same exact thing even though he claimed he was different. He’s showing that he is just like every other guy and still falls for the madonna/whore split.

  51. Pink Firefly, you rock.

    Not hopefully. I will. I follow my own advice.

    Alright, man! You’ve taken PUAs to task for getting all TMM‘d. On the other hand, your focus on managing relationships and seeing seduction as a necessary evil is exactly why you’re my current guru.

  52. I just think it’s funny seeing how BD has changed his tune.

    BD has changed nothing as far as I can see. He’s been talking about his desire to have an OLTR leading to open marriage for some time now.

    He’s even talking about MARRIAGE for Christ’s sake and letting a woman tell him what to do (not fuck strippers,etc)

    OPEN marriage not TMM, there is a huge difference. BD has stated before that having an OLTR will involve more rules/drama than he would normally prefer but that’s the cost of having a live-in girlfriend. Regarding strippers, it’s easy for him to obey this rule since he hardly ever fucked them anyway.

  53. LG you are just trying to find plotholes . There aren’t any. You still don’t get it. You don’t compromise your most important values. There is no issue in agreeing not to do stuff you wouldn’t be doing anyway or are not that important to you. I’m sure PF is low drama for an over 33+. BD’s issue is not the over 33, is the drama they carry these women. It’s a percentage issue, not an absolute. If an exception to the rule comes along the way and is consistent why not move forward with her?

  54. @Lovergirl:
    BD has always said that he loves older women, finds them super hot, and has written an article with two fantasized OLTR scenarios, one where he gets with Emilia Clarke (younger type) and one where it’s Rosamund Pike (blonde in her late thirties). At the same time, he also repeatedly stated that older women had more ASD, more rules, etc and that that is indeed a problem. One doesn’t prevent the other. There is a difference between having a Madonna/whore complex and just pragmatically admitting that older women with ASD are still great.
    He has also been talking for a long time about how he’s open to marrying an OLTR eventually, as long as it’s not TMM; that OLTRs require more compromise, etc.
    You’re interpreting BD’s actions as a 180 because you want to and because “AMALT” feels good to say. There is no contradiction whatsoever when you read his past articles carefully.

  55. A good woman makes you a better man

    Can you please elaborate on this? Sort of goes against anything I’ve ever read on your blog. Thanks

  56. Yes, he has been saying these things, for the past couple of years, since he’s been involved with this woman. I’m not going to say a lot more because, for me, seeing all this is fantastic lol. 😉

  57.  I don’t agree, so I guess we’ll agree to disagree. This is so silly and so irrelevant to the topic of the blog post. This is my last comment about your nitpicking. Time to move on, maybe you should too.

    Whether or not you agree or disagree with formal logic is irrelevant, because it’s true regardless. That’s about as ridiculous as ‘disagreeing with’ the statement “2+2 =4.” Or the statement “anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions contribute to an increase in Earth’s average temperature over time.” (in b4 the right-wingers start their scientifically illiterate climate denial)

    Think of it this way, draw a circle which contains all painful things. Then draw a smaller circle inside that contains all beautiful things. This is the Venn diagram of pain and beauty. Notice how there’s some stuff outside of the ‘beauty’ circle that is still painful? That’s because the statement “pain is beauty” is not necessarily true. But in this case, it is necessarily true that all “beauty is pain.”

    Unless of course you literally mean that pain is a synonym of beauty, in which case they are interchangeable.

  58. Yes, he has been saying these things, for the past couple of years, since he’s been involved with this woman

    @LG: so before BD met Firefly, he used to say that OLTRs, OLTR marriages and older chicks were bad ? Lol, the very first woman he was with was like twenty years older than him, and the OLTR concept has been on this blog from the early beginnings.
    Since you’re saying that this makes you “happy”, believe what you like. But you’re usually smarter than this, now you’re just seeing what you want to see.

  59. I also am rolling my eyes because men, in general, do that- they SAY they want women who put out quickly but they won’t consider her serious relationship material and BD is doing the same exact thing even though he claimed he was different. He’s showing that he is just like every other guy and still falls for the madonna/whore split.

    I’m really failing to see the situation that way. He found a woman who checks most of his boxes and does not demand anything outrageous of him (like fancy dinners on first dates). What’s wrong with that?

    He’s still doing open relationships, he’s still working on his mission and he’s in love with a hot woman who likes him back and seems to love him for who he is. The speed in which she got in bed with him has nothing to do with it. Her age has nothing to do with it.

    She came along, he analyzed the situation (for a long time, as he’s recommended all men do) and decided to move on and stablish an OLTR after a series of precautions and relationships tests and upgrades. His words:

    Pink Firefly has been in my life for almost three years now. The relationship evolution went like this: she started as a FB (as most women do), we played around for about a year and got along great, then we had about a year where we didn’t see each other (no particular reason; we both got busy with other things/people), then we resumed, and shortly after I upgraded her to MLTR.

    Soon after, we had The Talk. A few months after that, we had the OLTR Talk (which is different and more involved than The Talk). She passed both of these talks with flying colors, though not without the typical and predictable problems and adjustment period. I finally upgraded her to OLTR status earlier this year and started introducing her to other people in my life as my girlfriend.

    Also he’s been saying he would like to have an OLTR for a long time, at least since I started to read this blog three years ago. Don’t know the details but everything seems to be in perfect alignment with what he preaches and teach other men do.

  60. I’m not going to say a lot more because, for me, seeing all this is fantastic lol. 

    I reckon the real reason you’re not going to say a lot more is that you know you’re wrong and you can’t counter any of the posts which have explained why you’re wrong.

    That’s about as ridiculous as ‘disagreeing with’ the statement “2+2 =4.” Or the statement “anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions contribute to an increase in Earth’s average temperature over time.”

    Dear oh dear ?

  61.  

    Good… I was curious to see when this would happen, but the vast majority of it was quite predictable.

    Men, most of them, specially PUAs, players and those who *love* women will all likely settle at one point… they love, chase, get an incredible amount of ass, realize they are getting old and start looking to bunker down for their old days. I can’t blame that .. it’s a bright choice generally speaking and I’m no exception either.

    The exceptions are the ones who are asexual / lonely wolves by nature or simply view women as a tool to release their sperm and that’s it.

    However congrats, this is a chapter change for you and I’m glad it’s happening. You might learn a thing or 2 and share it on the blog : )

    Imo / ime I’ve always found some of your advice to be stretched or unnecessary non flexible .. but the core principles are usually right. My only word of caution is to be mindful of your own advice.

    – Khali –

  62. When it comes to facebook, have you put ‘in a relationship’ or ‘in an open relationship’ ?

    Unless (maybe) you’re literally married, always leave your Facebook relationship status hidden and blank. It’s no one’s business, it just causes drama and questions, and if it changes if/when you break up, you look like a total idiot. I tell normal monogamous people the same thing, by the way. The Facebook relationship status thing is just stupid; it’s for teenagers, not grown adults.

    PF started out as an FB and not an MLTR? Because of her age or…?

    No. Most my relationships, with women of all ages, start out as FBs. Its just safer.

    I ask this because you always write that the woman puts herself in either the FB or MLTR category (in this case as an over-33 who puts herself in the FB category, which is unusual) or she becomes an FB because you don’t consider her relationship material. My best guess is that she was part of your social circle, knew her from work (after the task was completed) and became an FB… but why no MLTR?

    I liked her a lot when I first met her, but she didn’t seem emotionally available way back then, and I also had a full roster of MLTRs at the time and wasn’t looking to add any more.

    If it took so many years for the relationship to grow to OLTR, I think its safe to overstretch MLTR and FB relations as long as you want before moving a woman up to OLTR status(and not rush as most men do).

    Exactly. Moving to OLTR (or monogamous LTR) way too fast is the most common mistake men make. Nobody wants to wait. Everyone wants to get excited, jump right in, and enjoy some temporary NRE before all the drama and problems start.

    Since my goal is not just happiness, but long-term happiness, I can’t do that. I have to take this stuff very slowly. You should too (unless you like drama).

    Isn’t it better for men to forget OLTR and stay with FB/ MLTR until they hit their goals in important areas of their life(financial being the major?)

    That’s certainly true for men who want kids, yes. But for a non-live-in OLTR where no kids or co-habitation is involved, it’s probably okay as long as the guy keeps his balls.

    “A good woman makes you a better man”

    Can you please elaborate on this?

    I understand why that statement could be confusing; I should probably re-word it. I will elaborate.

    1. You should never seek for a woman to make you better or more happy. I never have. That’s beta shit. You improve you. It’s your job. No one is going to do it for you.

    2. You should never plan on a woman making you a better man. Likely she won’t. Again, that’s your fucking job, not hers. She has her own improvements to make.

    3. When envisioning the best woman to be in a long-term OLTR for me, I wanted someone who had strong qualities that I lacked, to possibly help improve those lacking qualities within me, thus making me a better, more well-rounded man. In this case, as I said in the article, I am on the very low end of the emotional scale, and I feel it’s a good idea for me to be with someone who is on the very high end of that scale, to balance me out a little. Firefly is on the very high end of that scale, so hopefully, if we’re together for the long-term, she’ll help me improve in this area.

    Or she won’t. Or I won’t change. That’s okay too.

    My only word of caution is to be mindful of your own advice.

    I always am. More so than most.

    @Lovergirl

    Uh, so Firefly used the “ASD card” on me and that made me fall in love with her? How stupid. Women who use the ASD card on me before we have sex get instantly hard nexted and I go fuck someone else. PF and I had sex reasonably fast, just not the two-date, 3-hour meet-to-sex times I’m accustomed to. It was a little longer than that, but not much. If it was, I would have dropped her and moved on.

    @Everyone talking to Lovergirl

    Lovergirl isn’t stupid guys. She’s just being emotional and stirring up shit. (Jelly jelly!) She knows I’ve been talking about OLTR and OLTR Marriage since at least 2010, which was six years ago and three years before I even met Pink Firefly. LG also knows I regularly date women over age 33, often over age 40, and enjoy them as long as they don’t give me too much ASD (and many do; they get nexted).

    This may sound like bragging, but it’s accurate: In terms of living what I preach, I am one of the most consistent, if not the most consistent content provider in the entire manosphere and PUA community. I have not wavered on any of the core concepts I’ve been talking about publicly since around 2008 (that’s almost nine years ago). Unlike other PUA/manosphere content providers, my opinions are based on reality, facts, statistics, history, and biology, not my current feelings, not my current age, and not my current relationship status.

    Integrity and consistency is very important to me, since that’s what I seek when I look for experts to assist me. No one is perfect, and I’m certainly not, but in terms of walking my talk, I’m doing pretty well.

  63. Guys, I just read this comment on facebook:

    Happiness is when “Last seen at” changes to “online” and then to “typing..”

    Before the red pill and BD’s Outcome Independence, I might have said or thought this. Seriously, the average beta is sooo fucked up and we should all take a moment to realize how better off we are.

  64. I understand why that statement could be confusing; I should probably re-word it. I will elaborate.
    1. You should neverseekfor a woman to make you better or more happy. I never have. That’s beta shit.Youimprove you. It’s your job. No one is going to do it for you.
    2. You should neverplanon a woman making you a better man. Likely she won’t. Again, that’s your fucking job, not hers. She has her own improvements to make.
    3. When envisioning the best woman to be in a long-term OLTRfor me,I wanted someone who had strong qualities that I lacked, to possibly help improve those lacking qualities within me, thus making me a better, more well-rounded man. In this case, as I said in the article, I am on the very low end of the emotional scale, and I feel it’s a good idea for me to be with someone who is on the very high end of that scale, to balance me out a little. Firefly is on theveryhigh end of that scale, so hopefully, if we’re together for the long-term, she’ll help me improve in this area.
    Or she won’t. Or I won’t change. That’s okay too.

    Thank you for clarifying. I too am a low emotion INTJ. I was with a woman who was at the very high end of emotion for almost 2 years. I always felt funny being asked to express my feelings/emotions. She always did and frankly it was quite nice. I got better at it but you need to be careful. I realized I started to be a little bit “too open” with other women because at the end of the day most want an emotionless rock (even though they claim otherwise).

  65. Congrats BD! Entertaining and informative as usual. I would love to see a pic of this Pink Firefly of course, but that’s just me being a creeper 😉

  66. Last few comments leads to a question: Firefly is probably extroverted? BD being introvert, opposite was attractive and balancing force?

    Just wondering, because personally as a deeply introverted man I’ve always connected most with the opposite (extrovert) when it comes to LTR‘s. Extroverted woman balances introverted man, and vice versa – making relationship work really well (in my experience).

    Anyone else have same experiences?

  67. I agree with Person. I’m massively introverted, but I love talkative chicks (so long as what they talk about isn’t dumb; and if she’s cute I won’t set the bar too high anyway); I kinda tend to let them ramble while making a remark, teasing them or asking a question every now and then. The problem is that it also means I have a problem with “serious” relationships (high end mltrs and oltrs): I want them because as I said some time ago I have a “boyfriend urge” on top of my sexual urges, but I hate the ‘social commitment’ they imply. Same with people in general: I’m perfectly at ease talking in a group and having a good laugh, but I want to be 100% free to disappear into my man cave for weeks at a time and laugh off anyone who “lectures me” for having refused this or that meeting.

    My impression is that “serial semi-monogamous” could be the solution for me: one semiserious girlfriend while having some casual sex on the side, and I next (or I am LSNFTEd) every 12 months or so because the drama will have increased. That doesn’t mean I intend to freely indulge in beta/bf behaviors, but I can’t follow all of BD’s rules, since they result in roughly one “BF-behavior-tolerant relationship” (OLTR) per decade, too little for me. Playing in the middle will get me more drama and shorter relationships, but I accept the tradeoff (as BD says, you can do whatever the hell you want so long as you don’t complain when the drawbacks he predicted creep up, and I’m a man of my word :p).

  68. I would love to see a pic of this Pink Firefly of course

    She actually wanted the pic on this article to be a cropped pic of her, showing part of her face, hair, and chest. I didn’t want to do it because I was being Mr. Protective (knowing what kinds of creepers and trolls are out there). But if she wants to post a pic of something like that I’m cool with it. Maybe on the next article in which I talk about her.

    Firefly is probably extroverted? BD being introvert, opposite was attractive and balancing force?

    She is extroverted, but she’s not outgoing. She loves being in group settings (I do not), and she’s very social and comfortable in such settings, but is usually quiet unless someone talks to her first. I’ve been in relationships with women who were extroverted and outgoing, who were bouncing off the walls and were the life of the party. So PF is extroverted but not extreme in that area, as I am extreme in being low-emotion. So no, we don’t balance each other out in that way.

    I do balance her out in terms of strength, assertiveness, and standing up for oneself. After being with me for so long, she’s suddenly kicking more ass in terms of dealing with dumbasses and jerks she has to deal with in her work and family life. It’s fun to watch.

    Just wondering, because personally as a deeply introverted man I’ve always connected most with the opposite (extrovert) when it comes to LTR’s. Extroverted woman balances introverted man, and vice versa – making relationship work really well (in my experience).

    I agree and this is very common.

    The downside is that you have to adjust to having someone in your life who communicates very differently and sees the world very differently sometimes than you do. PF and I certainly have had a few of our own “adjustment” moments with each other.

  69. @Person

    You are absolutely correct and I would NEVER live w anyone again unless they were opposite of my personality (not views or interests). Basically, it is my theory someone has to be the “boss” or clear leader of the home kinda. The last OLTR that I did she was awesome and still is but we are both very independent and strong willed so once I moved in, it caused issues cuz she couldn’t control me.

    If a man is more beta, he probably do better living w a woman that wears the pants and vice versa.

    This is only if living together and not so sure this matters as much otherwise.

    So, if your too much alike, be Careful!!

  70. So just a question, and I was hoping for a bit more detail on this in the article, as it’s something I struggle with:

    Do you guys have any rules for whom each other are allowed/not allowed to sleep with?

    You had mentioned sometimes that as an OLTR couple one or both of you might feel the need to set those boundaries, like “don’t sleep with my boss/best friend” etc.
    Personally, what I find hardest about making the transition to alpha 2.0 is trying to stomach my girlfriend/wife sleeping with someone who might gloat about it or lord it over me or someone who I think is an asshole. Not that I care that much about what people think, but having to deal with a situation like that would probably cause me some unhappiness. I’m not sure if there’s an approach here that could be taken to minimize unhappiness. I mean, isn’t there some guy out there that if your wife/gf hooked up with them, that you might lose respect for them/be annoyed/be permanently turned off etc.??

    Just wondering how BD deals with this. I’m hoping for a bit more than “just calm down and think about the hot chicks you are sleeping with on the side too”. Unless that really is the best strategy.

  71. @CurtsNOKC:

    Why would someone living an non monogamous Alpha 2 lifestyle ask her if she’s screwing other guys?

    Um……because it’s unacceptable if she’s not! My OLTR girlfriend and I would have serious problems if I were her only source of sex.

    1. If she weren’t fucking anyone but me,  she would get very needy, clingy, and insecure, which is a turn off for me. Being a woman’s only source of sex is a huge burden to put on me. Such dependence on her part will lead to all kinds of drama and neediness from her. She would eventually resent me for sleeping with other women and would use her voluntary monogamy as blackmail material to guilt trip me! This is unacceptable.

    My OLTR has been successful thus far because she’s always had at least two guys on her rotation other than me, thus avoiding all that girly insecurity that I hate so much. And that’s not even counting her friends whom we both screw together via threesomes, foursomes, and other types of group sex.

    Luckily, I don’t have to worry about her dumping her other dudes, because she’s in the poly community and was the first one to give me the non-mono speech when we first started dating. But yeah, if she’d suddenly stop sleeping with her others and declared herself sexually exclusive with me, that would be a huge red flag that I doubt our relationship would survive.

    2. Her sleeping with other men makes me a better boyfriend. Monogamy is a safety net. Safety nets breed laziness and taking each other for granted. Sleeping with others creates competition and a feeling that I could lose her anytime. This constantly keeps me on my toes and makes me a better boyfriend to her. I don’t want to take her, or her love, for granted. Knowing that she’s sleeping with other men reminds me how precious our relationship is and how no safety net will save it if our emotional or sexual feelings for each other go away, thus keeping the relationship alive via sincerity alone (which is as it should be). Competition creates incentive to love each other, treat each other well, and never take the other for granted. It also prevents the relationship from slipping into neediness or comfortable hypocrisy.

    In short, I must know that she wants to be with me despite sleeping with others and despite having tons of other sexual options. If I’m her only option and she’s too lazy to find new dick, then she is no longer making a choice to be with me from a position of strength, thus making a mockery of our relationship, which will degenerate into hypocrisy. The only way to prevent this is to make sure she’s still fucking other men (while I fuck other women).

    3. Her sleeping with other men is hot. I want a girlfriend who is sexually compatible with me. Sexual compatibility, in my case, means having an insatiable sex drive and screwing other people both with me and by herself. It’s how I gage the strength of a woman’s sexual liberation, and therefore, my attraction to her. If my girlfriend becomes a “one man prude” I will start to lose interest.

    And it be odd too if Pink firefly volunteered to him that she was not screwing other guys too lol.

    No, it wouldn’t. It would be normal. If I were Pink’s boyfriend, I’d demand it.

    If that was my main chic, I’d almost cover my ears so I could claim I didn’t hear it cuz then I’m afraid it start my regression back to beta days.

    Then your problem is you, your slut shaming, your M/W complex, and your beta insecurity, which informed all of your above opinions. An alpha 2.0 believes the opposite.

    It’s a moot point

    No it’s not. Your original question was “why would a non-mono alpha 2.0 ask his girl if she’s screwing other dudes?” I gave you three reasons. And I’d ask you, “why wouldn’t he?” But there are reasons why a beta male would never ask – reasons which you articulated in your “I’d almost cover my ears” statement.

    So it’s really beta not to ask, I would think, since not asking is the result of beta insecurity based on instinctive slut shaming (as you have demonstrated). But maybe some alpha 2.0s wouldn’t ask because they genuinely don’t care. I acknowledge that as a possibility as well.

  72. @BD:

    You mentioned that most men would consider your girlfriend a 9 or 10. But this seems like you’re breaking your own relationship rules, since you stated more than once that an OLTR should be slightly uglier than your FBs in order to avoid neediness. Or did I miss something?

    And by the way, I’m really disappointed in your daughter man. If I had a teenage daughter who pulled that Disney shit on me, I’d ground her and probably order her to watch some porn so she could get her mind right. This way, by the time she turned 18, she’d be thoroughly immune to this SP crap (or at least I’d do everything in my power to ensure it). But your daughter is 18 and she is still thinking about wedding dresses and happily ever after crap? Sad. The “M” word should be banned from your house, and the house of any alpha 2.0.

    Also, I’m curious how you’d reconcile your wedding vows with your “all relationships are temporary” knowledge. Would you have the officiator say, “Caleb, do you promise to be with this woman for as long as you want to?” You: I do. But what’s the difference between being married and not, then? Why even entertain this Disney nonsense?

    @Pink Firefly:

    So are you sleeping with other men? Come on, don’t keep us in suspense, baby! 🙂

     

  73. I’m not sure if there’s an approach here that could be taken to minimize unhappiness. I mean, isn’t there some guy out there that if your wife/gf hooked up with them, that you might lose respect for them/be annoyed/be permanently turned off etc.??

    Easy, and one of the most common rules in OLTR‘s.

    No sleeping with anyone the other person knows, no friends, no friends of the family, no one you meet through work, no one that lives in your immediate neighborhood, no one that you see regularly in your normal life routine.

    Problem solved.

  74. @jack outside the box

    Wow. Very well written. I agree w you that my OLTR needs to fuck other men and me other women but I am not sure I agree w me asking her if she is fucking other men. Or at least very often.

    When I have asked this question in the past, they usually always claim that I am being nosy, jealous and needy. They have also said if we are non mong than its really non of my biz and I kinda agree. If I ask her than she can ask me and use it for more drama.

    So, even though I agree with the logic behind your arguments, I tend to take a different approach now on this issue and just have an “I don’t care attitude” since I always establish in the beginning that I am going to see others and that she needs to as well.

    Additionally, if she knows her not sleeping w other men will turn me off, than she could always lie and say yes just to keep you turned on lol.

    Now your almost saying that it’s REQUIRED that she sleep w other men, which is hardly a view of Independence or Libertarian style, which I prefer.

    Nobody is required to do anything or discuss anything about the non monogamous or exclusive stuff w me. Just more rules to mess with.

    That being said, I totally understand where your coming from and this is not an easy one for everyone. I just seem to have better luck w the ladies when I just act like I don’t give a shit either way and mind my own biz….

    It seems to turn them on more than when I ask them too many questions. Almost like since I don’t care, it frustrates them and that builds attraction.

  75. @Jack Outside the Box

    Do you have kids? Because it sure sounds like you don’t.

    Also for an Alpha 2.0 you sure have a lot of strict rules for people in your life. Alpha 2.0 is not about setting rules for others it’s about setting rules for yourself. Sometimes you sound just like alpha 1.0

  76. I don’t think Jack means to dictate anything to anyone; his point (I think) is that his gf is free to not fuck other men…but then he’ll walk away and find a girl who does. What he says about his hypothetical daughter however, is trickier (and he’s always said his libertarianism stop with children); maybe he’ll clarify.

    I’m personally far from having a strong opinion on where a parent should sit on the spectrum between 1° letting your children be influenced by whatever they want, 2° closely monitoring and influencing their intellectual development. One thing for sure is that I’ll do everything I can to keep them away from organized religion and pseudo-religion. Once they’re past 15-17, I’ll probably loosen up and accept that they may wildly diverge from my own ideals; they can even embrace sexual asceticism for all I care (but I’d tell them they’re seriously missing out LOL). If I ever have kids that is.

  77. Do you guys have any rules for whom each other are allowed/not allowed to sleep with?

    Of course. You have to. You and her set up whatever ground rules you want. Every couple will be different. You’ll notice George has a very specific set of rules. I have a slightly different set, and I’m sure Jack has a third set.

    An OLTR is not a MLTR where you can just go around banging whoever you want. There must be some rules (unless you like drama, or don’t care about how long the OLTR lasts).

    Uh oh. BD now has to live with two women

    Yeah, that might actually happen. Jesus, give me strength!!!

    My daughter is supposed to move out late next summer though, so we’ll see.

    You mentioned that most men would consider your girlfriend a 9 or 10. But this seems like you’re breaking your own relationship rules, since you stated more than once that an OLTR should be slightly uglier than your FBs in order to avoid neediness. Or did I miss something?

    I already answered that above. To repeat for the last time:

    1. PF is 37, and will get older with time (as will I). Continually recycled-and-replaced younger women stay the same age.

    2. Why do some of you assume that just because my girlfriend would be considered a 9 or 10, none of my FBs are also 9s or 10s? Maybe every woman I’m having sex with is a 10 or high 9. Seriously, some of you have scarcity issues when it comes to the availability of attractive women.

    And by the way, I’m really disappointed in your daughter man.

    Says the guy who has no kids.

    Wait until you have kids and raise them for 10-15 years, then come back and talk to me about your parenting opinions and experiences.

    If I had a teenage daughter who pulled that Disney shit on me, I’d ground her and probably order her to watch some porn so she could get her mind right. This way, by the time she turned 18, she’d be thoroughly immune to this SP crap (or at least I’d do everything in my power to ensure it). But your daughter is 18 and she is still thinking about wedding dresses and happily ever after crap? Sad. The “M” word should be banned from your house, and the house of any alpha 2.0.

    You realize everything you just said is Alpha Male 1.0, not 2.0.

    Now that you’ve moved from libertarian to alt-right, are you now making a second transition from 2.0 to 1.0?

    Also, I’m curious how you’d reconcile your wedding vows with your “all relationships are temporary” knowledge. Would you have the officiator say, “Caleb, do you promise to be with this woman for as long as you want to?” You: I do.

    If we actually go through with a wedding ceremony, we will write our own vows. And yeah, I will probably will leave out false Societal Programming like “till death do us part,” since that’s not something any human being under age 60 can guarantee. I can say things like I want to be together with her forever, because I do, but even she realizes realizes real-world people can’t make these kinds of promises. As a matter of fact, she told me about that before I ever did.

    But what’s the difference between being married and not, then? Why even entertain this Disney nonsense?

    1. Women like that Disney stuff, regardless of their actual results. I would be doing it for her, not for me.

    2. Read this.

    I tend to take a different approach now on this issue and just have an “I don’t care attitude” since I always establish in the beginning that I am going to see others and that she needs to as well.

    That’s my attitude. I’m Alpha 2.0. I’ve already told PF that I’m never going to tell her what to do… and the price she pays for that is that she can’t tell me what to do either. (But we can still mutually agree on ground rules of course.)

    Also for an Alpha 2.0 you sure have a lot of strict rules for people in your life. Alpha 2.0 is not about setting rules for others it’s about setting rules for yourself. Sometimes you sound just like alpha 1.0

    Yes, he’s applying Alpha 1.0 behaviors onto an Alpha 2.0 framework. To each their own.

    I don’t think Jack means to dictate anything to anyone

    Go re-read his comment: If I were Pink’s boyfriend, I’d demand it.

    Again though, his drama tolerance is likely far higher than mine, so if drama resulted, it wouldn’t bother him as much as it would bother me.

  78. You realize everything you just said is Alpha Male 1.0, not 2.0.

    Having control over what is said or done within your own private property (i.e. your home) seems compatible with both types of alphas to me.

    Now that you’ve moved from libertarian to alt-right,

    Oh for fuck sake, I’ve done no such thing. Let me be as clear as I can on this issue:

    I HATE the alt-right. I HATE their slut shaming! I HATE their M/W! I HATE their 1950s “the woman you marry should be a virgin and a believer in god” horseshit! I HATE their purity fetishes and their desire to undo the sexual revolution. I HATE their racism! I HATE their anti-Semitism! I HATE virtually everything about them!

    How could I have an OLTR and at the same time embrace the alt right? And just to be super clear, the alt right hate me. For “letting” my woman sleep with other men, they’ve called me an omega male, a c*ck (with a u), a low T loser, my girlfriend’s bitch, and all kinds of other bad names! You actually think I’m in any way friendly with those tradcon assholes? Please!

    I agree with the alt right on only three things:

    1. Free Speech absolutism.

    2. Death to political correctness, social justice, and feminism.

    3. Death to Islam!

    are you now making a second transition from 2.0 to 1.0?

    With children? Yes! With other adults? No!

    If we actually go through with a wedding ceremony, we will write our own vows. And yeah, I will probably will leave out false Societal Programming like “till death do us part,” since that’s not something any human being under age 60 can guarantee. I can say things like I want to be together with her forever, because I do, but even she realizes realizes real-world people can’t make these kinds of promises. As a matter of fact, she told me about that before I ever did.

    That will be an interesting ceremony then. Any chance you can live stream it on youtube for our viewing pleasure? I may even offer financial incentives! I’ll bring the popcorn! 🙂

    Yes, he’s applying Alpha 1.0 behaviors onto an Alpha 2.0 framework. To each their own.

    Go re-read his comment: If I were Pink’s boyfriend, I’d demand it.

    Again though, his drama tolerance is likely far higher than mine, so if drama resulted, it wouldn’t bother him as much as it would bother me.

    LOL! Show me an alpha 1.0 who demands his woman start sleeping with other men! HAHA!

    But fine, let me rephrase this in alpha 2.0 language:

    Me to my girl if she chose to sleep with only me: “You are, of course, free to do whatever you want. But you must understand something about me. Being your only source of sex is a great responsibility for me, and it is something which I don’t care to be burdened with. One of the primary reasons I started dating you was because you seemed so vibrant, alive, sexually open minded, and free spirited. If you choose to abandon all those wonderful things and cling only to me, that is your choice. But you will have lost a lot of what turned me on about you. And since I don’t want to resent you or take you for granted just because you’re not sleeping with others, this newly conservative attitude of yours will force me to reevaluate the status of our relationship. Since I need a woman who is wildly sexual, I will need to do some serious thinking about where our relationship is going if you choose this conservative path. I’ll let you know what I decide.”  

     

  79. @Jack outside the box

    Just seems to me that by letting them know you require them to sleep w other men basically could backfire and make them NOT want to, which would be counter intuitive to yiur goals.

    We all know how people tend to do whatever we don’t want them to do.

    You may have some control issues too?
    I thiink the closet thing I’ve had like this is when I had a talk w a chic that told me she loved WWM threesomes but since she wants to be Monogamous w me (because she liked me so much lmao) she didn’t want to now. I was not happy and it did turn me off a tiny bit. It made her seem more conservative and boring and clingy and didn’t seem fair.

    I told her well, I’d rather you not like me as much honestly if it means I got to have threesomes with you , like the guys before me got to.

    But I knew if I told her this was a requirement, she said have said “fuck you” so I instead said this:

    “Angela I would love to experience that with you but knowing you dont w me because of jealous issus but u did with other men so it doesn’t sound as exciting now really. I’d rather do this with ladies that want to so it’s no biggie really. This is just one more reason it’s smart to stay non-monogamous so there is no pressure on either one of us.”

    We had one within a week or two after this lol.

    But the lesson I learned is to not tell them threesomes are REQUIRED anymore but that I’m highly attracted to women that WANT to do them instead….

  80. @CurtsNOKC:

    Wow. Very well written. I agree w you that my OLTR needs to fuck other men and me other women but I am not sure I agree w me asking her if she is fucking other men. Or at least very often.

    Maybe not often, but I’d at least want to make sure she has some dick on the side. Then again, I’m the kind of guy who loves trading stories and sharing these things in as much specific detail as possible (and my girl is mostly the same way). But yeah, to each his own.

    When I have asked this question in the past, they usually always claim that I am being nosy, jealous and needy.

    Then your problem is with the manner in which you asked, or the vibe you put out when asking. You’ve admitted here that you’d cover your ears because them telling you might regress you to your beta ways. I think your women sense that insecurity and correctly diagnose the place from which you’re asking.

    What I do is tell my girl about the incredible sex I’ve had last night with an FB. She’s told me that she enjoys hearing these types of stories. Then I say “your turn” and she tells me about her sexcapades (sometimes even while we’re having sex). Then she brings up the possibility of a threesome with me and her side guy, and off we go.

    They have also said if we are non mong than its really non of my biz and I kinda agree.

    I’d agree with this if you were only fuck buddies. But if the two of you are in love, and in a serious relationship, it’s hard for me to imagine how you can have a complete relationship with a potential “soulmate” if you don’t discuss the most intimate things about each other’s lives. I suppose some OLTR couples have a “don’t ask, don’t tell” approach, but that just strikes me as disingenuous and tends to create the illusion of monogamy (even though you both know the truth). To me, that precisely reeks of insecurity. But yeah, I guess to each, his own.

    If I ask her than she can ask me and use it for more drama.

    Why would you fucking other women cause drama? I’m assuming you agreed to be open.

    So, even though I agree with the logic behind your arguments, I tend to take a different approach now on this issue and just have an “I don’t care attitude” since I always establish in the beginning that I am going to see others and that she needs to as well.

    If we’re talking FBs, or even low end MLTRs, then fine. But if we’re talking high end MLTRs or an OLTR, hiding such things from each other just seems needy to me. But I suppose if you and your OLTR have a mutual understanding that you are both fucking other people but want to maintain discretion with each other, then I suppose that’s an honorable understanding. It would just be hard to maintain for me (especially if I’m living with a woman), when sleeping with others is a big part of my life and my girlfriend wants to know how my day went. It’s too much of a headache for me to do these mental gymnastics when figuring our how to answer her question without revealing my sex life.

    Additionally, if she knows her not sleeping w other men will turn me off, than she could always lie and say yes just to keep you turned on lol.

    Cool! Then suggest a threesome with her and one of her other men!

    Now your almost saying that it’s REQUIRED that she sleep w other men, which is hardly a view of Independence or Libertarian style, which I prefer.

    I require a certain type of woman to make me happy. Conservative, or de facto monogamous, women don’t make me happy. Therefore, yes, it is required for my happiness.

    Nobody is required to do anything or discuss anything about the non monogamous or exclusive stuff w me. Just more rules to mess with.

    Again, not with FBs or MLTRs. But once you get super serious, I’d think you’d want to know the most intimate details of her life (and vice versa) in order to strengthen your spiritual bond and grow closer together. This is why my girl and I also fuck other people together. But whatever makes you happy.

    That being said, I totally understand where your coming from and this is not an easy one for everyone. I just seem to have better luck w the ladies when I just act like I don’t give a shit either way and mind my own biz….

    See the distinction between casual women vs. serious women.

    It seems to turn them on more than when I ask them too many questions. Almost like since I don’t care, it frustrates them and that builds attraction.

    Like I said, when you ask them the way you are, you’re doing it wrong. So yeah, perhaps not asking them at all is better for you. It’s cool.

  81. Having control over what is said or done within your own private property (i.e. your home) seems compatible with both types of alphas to me.

    It is not. Desiring a woman to live in your home to boss around is Alpha 1.0, not 2.0. The 2.0 has no desire to control a woman like this, regardless of if she’s in his property or not.

    You’re mixing your political views with your lifestyle desires. This has nothing to do with property rights.

    HATE their slut shaming! I HATE their M/W!

    Outside of just two guys and their devotees (Roosh and Heartise), these relationship issues are perhaps 2% of the alt-right’s platform. The other 98% involves stuff like Donald Trump, building walls, and kicking Hispanics and Muslims out of countries (and other things that will never happen) that I know you’re very enthusiastic about.

    With children? Yes!

    You’re going to be an Alpha Male 1.0 father then. To each his own. Not my style.

    With other adults? No!

    Not if you’re demanding your girlfriend have sexual intercourse with other men.

    Any chance you can live stream it on youtube for our viewing pleasure? I may even offer financial incentives! I’ll bring the popcorn!

    Haha fuck yeah! I’m a cash whore, so anything to make money dude. People can pay-per-view that shit. I doubt Pink Firefly would be down for that though.

    LOL! Show me an alpha 1.0 who demands his woman start sleeping with other men! HAHA!

    Nice try, but it doesn’t matter what the demand is. The issue is you’re making demands and trying to control others. Not 2.0 at all.

    But fine, let me rephrase this in alpha 2.0 language

    this newly conservative attitude of yours will force me to reevaluate the status of our relationship.

    No. Instead of giving her a lecture and threats, both of which are hallmarks of the Alpha 1.0, you would just end it or next her if she did something you hated as a pattern of behavior. More importantly, if you hate that she doesn’t fuck other men, you’re making Alpha 2.0 status very difficult for yourself. You shouldn’t care either way.

    The Alpha 2.0 is outcome independent. He doesn’t care if his OLTR fucks other men or not. I don’t care what Pink Firefly does in her spare time when I’m not around, either way (provided she follows the rules of course, but if I didn’t trust her, she wouldn’t be my girlfriend in the first place).

  82. @AnonDude:

    Do you have kids?

    No. But my girlfriend and I are talking about having a baby. And we haven’t even moved in together yet.

    Because it sure sounds like you don’t.

    Why is that?

    Also for an Alpha 2.0 you sure have a lot of strict rules for people in your life. Alpha 2.0 is not about setting rules for others it’s about setting rules for yourself. Sometimes you sound just like alpha 1.0

    Right. I set rules for myself. If a woman chooses to be  a prude, I will choose to find another woman. She can do whatever she wants, but so can I. An example of an alpha 1.0 would be yelling at her and trying to force compliance even after her blatant refusal instead of just dumping her or nexting her.

    @WolfofGeorgeStreet:

    Easy, and one of the most common rules in OLTR’s.

    No sleeping with anyone the other person knows, no friends, no friends of the family,

    Wow! Then my girlfriend and I break that one all the time. I’ve slept with literally all of her friends. Then again, she’s in the poly community, so all of her friends have sex with her and each other’s partners in addition to their own. In her circle, refusing to let a friend sleep with your primary partner means the friendship is over, or at least that you’re not close friends anymore. In her world, close friends all fuck each other. Otherwise, they’re not close friends.

    When she first brought up me screwing her best friend, I asked her if it’s okay and she said, “Well duh, she’s, like, my best friend. We share everything. Me and her never slept with someone long term that the other hasn’t.” 

     

  83. Gosh I just hate rules I guess.  Maybe I am a Anarchist more than a Libertarian lol.

    @Jack in the box

    But the best friends deal sounds pretty hot and I might be a lil jealous right now cuz this one chic I am seeing has a very hot friend and I want that threesome sooo bad I can taste it.  But she prefers to do threesomes with strangers – ugh.  I gotta find a way to make this one happen lol.

    Don’t you hate it when chics have all fatty friends?  My ex wife was a 8 and all her friends were like a 3 and it always drove me crazy lol.  I would try to get her to make friends with that new hot neighbor that moved in and she would run away cuz she always had to be the hottest.  Glad those days are over….

  84. Not to be negative, but even the best situations sometimes go in a bad direction. On that note:

    Will you have PF to sign a cohabitation agreement?

    Will you use any other asset protection strategies?

    Thanks!

  85. Not to be negative, but even the best situations sometimes go in a bad direction. On that note:

    Will you have PF to sign a cohabitation agreement?

    Will you use any other asset protection strategies?

    It sounds like you’re somewhat new to this blog. I’ve talked about asset protection, prenuptial agreements, cohabitation agreements, parenting plans, and various other related strategies in great detail here. In the above article I even linked to this article that I suggest you read, that lists everything I’ll be doing with her when she moves in, plus much more, one of which is an enforceable cohab agreement. Then read through the archive to get more details on asset protection when you actually want to live or have kids with a woman.

  86. @BD

    You’ll notice George has a very specific set of rules. I have a slightly different set

    What are your rules?

    2. Why do some of you assume that just because my girlfriend would be considered a 9 or 10, none of my FBs are also 9s or 10s? Maybe every woman I’m having sex with is a 10 or high 9. Seriously, some of you have scarcity issues when it comes to the availability of attractive women.

    Because 9+’s ARE scarce, ESPECIALLY on online dating sites. It is clear from this comment that you either suffer from Shallow Hal syndrome, have wildly different views than the norm on what is attractive or rate extremely softly. That’s fine, you’re happy with the quality of girls you get and that’s all that matters, but others need to adjust their expectations accordingly when reading your advice and make allowances for your inflated ratings.

    @Jack Outside the Box

    Wow! Then my girlfriend and I break that one all the time.

    How can you break a rule that your girlfriend and you don’t actually have?

    OLTR rules are decided between the couple. Your OLTR sounds like a sexual free for all, that’s cool, but don’t expect an OLTR like that to last longer term (several+ years) and/or not be full of drama, by the sounds of it you don’t really expect it to last either or are perfectly happy to walk away from it without compromise.

    Of course that’s ok, but you can’t really compare that to the rules couples will set down if they expect to have a low drama OLTR that lasts a decade or more that involve alot of compromise etc.

  87. What are your rules?

    My goal is a minimum number of rules, so in terms of fucking other people, my rule set isn’t nearly as stringent as yours. Reviewing your list…

    No sleeping with anyone the other person knows

    I don’t care if she fucks some distant acquaintance of mine.

    no friends,

    She can fuck my friends if she really wanted to (like one or two, not ten of them), but she’d have to ask my permission first and keep me in the loop.

    no friends of the family

    As above

    no one you meet through work

    She can fuck people she meets through her work, I don’t care. I don’t think that’s a good idea but her work is her problem. She can’t fuck anyone I work with regularly though. I don’t even fuck people I work with.

    no one that lives in your immediate neighborhood

    That doesn’t bother me as long as it’s not literally next door or down the street or whatever.

    no one that you see regularly in your normal life routine.

    Too stringent; I can think of lots of exceptions to this.

    As I said, everyone has their own set of rules, and no two OLTRs will have the identical set.

    Because 9+’s ARE scarce, ESPECIALLY online. It is clear from this comment that you either suffer from Shallow Hal syndrome or rate extremely softly.

    Yes of course, I only fuck chubby homely women. I’m not getting into that with you again. I’ve already shown that you are the one with a unique syndrome, not me; I already made my final statement to you about in this comment here.

  88. Yes of course, I only fuck chubby homely women.

    Yes of course. Because if a girl is not chubby or homely she must be at least a 9/10…

    I just suggest any readers who takes your scarcity comment seriously jump on any of the major dating sites and have a look at Portland and see how ‘abundant’ all these 9+’s are.

    Again, I’ll say, I stand by your relationship advice, it’s the best on the net, but it’s hard not to get the impression that you exaggerate the looks quality of the girls in your life to help sell books based on a quick search of the very dating sites you use, in the very area you live, and taking into account what you’re working with vs your competition.

    I have no doubt that your OLTR is very attractive FOR HER AGE, because it’s not particularly difficult for a wealthy Alpha guy in his 40’s who’s taken care of himself to snag a 37yo ‘9’. Her SMV is severely diminished at that age, no matter how hot you still find her to be.

    Meeting a 9+ online in her 20’s in the Anglosphere in 2016 (if a guy even manages to get that far without using money) in all but a few select cities that are very ratio favorable, is extremely difficult for all but male model looking guys and keeping her around for any significant period of time, even when following all your rules/advice is a totally different ball game than keeping around a 30 something woman.

  89. @BD:

    It is not. Desiring a woman to live in your home to boss around is Alpha 1.0, not 2.0. The 2.0 has no desire to control a woman like this, regardless of if she’s in his property or not.

    You’re mixing your political views with your lifestyle desires. This has nothing to do with property rights.

    It seems that there is a fine line between “bossing a woman around” vs. simply removing her from your life if she doesn’t make you happy. My vision of the two is blurred. The alpha 1.0 (the way I understand him) doesn’t break up with a woman if she refuses to cooperate. Instead he yells, gets into fights with her, shouts a lot, and may even transition into physical abuse if he doesn’t get his way.

    I, on the other hand, will just next her if her character doesn’t suit me.

    Outside of just two guys and their devotees (Roosh and Heartise), these relationship issues are perhaps 2% of the alt-right’s platform.

    BD, you are devastatingly wrong here! Please do some research on the alt right. Let me clue you in:

    The philosophical root of the alt right from which everything else proceeds is the desire to establish a so called “high trust society.” What is this, you may ask? A high trust society is an anti-individualistic and super communitarian close-knit community in which everyone knows everyone else, neighbors observe neighbors, and social and cultural norms are rigidly enforced via intense public shaming in the cultural, professional, and even legal sphere.

    In other words, the prudish, monogamous family extends to the larger “community,” which then further extends into race (hence their racism), the nation (hence their isolationism), and everything else they believe in. But it all begins with their 1950s “high trust society” within which things like privacy, discretion, the secret society, sexual liberation, and individualism would be impossible!

    In order for sexual freedom (which is what we here stand for) to be possible, we need an atomized and individualistic, or “low trust,” society. That is the only way to force our neighbors to mind their own fucking business while we have a threesome! That is the only way sexual freedom – with its requisite privacy and discretion – can flourish!

    The alt-right is a brutal enemy to everything we (both as libertarians and seducers) hold dear.      

    The other 98% involves stuff like Donald Trump, building walls, and kicking Hispanics and Muslims out of countries (and other things that will never happen) that I know you’re very enthusiastic about.

    1. I’m enthusiastic about Donald Trump because he represents an existential threat to political correctness, social justice, feminism, anti-white racism, anti-male sexism, and heterophobia.

    The alt right are fellow travelers on these issues.

    2. I’m enthusiastic about building the wall because I’m a civic nationalist (not to be confused with being a white nationalist).

    The alt right, as white nationalists, are fellow travelers on this issue.

    3. I’m NOT enthusiastic about kicking out Hispanics. I’m enthusiastic about kicking out illegals. The fact that most illegals just happen to be Hispanics isn’t my fault. As a civic nationalist, I believe in law enforcement. I also want to kick out every legal immigrant as well who refuses to assimilate.

    The alt right, as white nationalists, are fellow travelers on this issue.

    4. Yes, I am enthusiastic about kicking out the Muslims because I see them as a threat to sexual freedom, Free Speech, and literally all western values. As a libertarian who values my human rights, I believe that all Muslim immigrants – both legal and illegal – need to be permanently banned from this country, while our Muslim citizens need to be forced to apply for Muslim permits.

    The alt right, as white nationalists and xenophobes in general, are fellow travelers on this issue.

    You’re going to be an Alpha Male 1.0 father then. To each his own. Not my style.

    As Thomas Jefferson said, “Liberty is not a play-thing for a child.” If you love your children, you will boss them around. You will teach them good values. You will teach them to reject toxic ideologies and raise them with values and ideas that you believe, as a good father, will make them the most happy in life if they embrace them. This is basic parenthood man! I will do everything in my power to raise red pill kids because I will love my kids dearly. It would break my heart to see them end up as blue pillers. I will have failed as a father! Call it alpha 1.0 if you want. I call it love.

    Not if you’re demanding your girlfriend have sexual intercourse with other men.

    Use whatever other language you see fit. The point is – my girlfriend has to have a certain type of personality in order to turn me on and justify our continued relationship. This personality will present itself via certain behavioral traits. If these traits aren’t present, then she is lacking the personality I require for my happiness. In that case, she is no longer girlfriend material. So I owe it to myself and to my happiness to dump her and find myself a woman whom I am more sexually and emotionally compatible with. Sounds 2.0 to me.

    Haha fuck yeah! I’m a cash whore, so anything to make money dude. People can pay-per-view that shit.

    When I said I’d offer cash incentives, I meant I’d pay for the popcorn. HAHA!

    I doubt Pink Firefly would be down for that though.

    @Pink Firefly: Don’t be a buzzkill. I’m only asking for the wedding to be on youtube, not for the honeymoon to be on pornhub! 🙂

    No. Instead of giving her a lecture and threats, both of which are hallmarks of the Alpha 1.0, you would just end it or next her if she did something you hated as a pattern of behavior.

    But that wouldn’t be fair to her. Imagine if you are doing something that turns your girlfriend off. But she doesn’t tell you about it. She just nexts you without even giving you a chance to stop. That’s unfair. She should tell you what it is so that you can then decide from a position of strength whether to keep doing it and risk losing her, or stop and keep her. I’d want to give my girl that chance as a way of preserving her free will and autonomy in the relationship.

    More importantly, if you hate that she doesn’t fuck other men, you’re making Alpha 2.0 status very difficult for yourself. You shouldn’t care either way.

    My sexual turn ons are very specific, I’m afraid. And no, so far it hasn’t been difficult with my current girl (although I guess you’ve read about the various dramas her and I have been through).

    The Alpha 2.0 is outcome independent. He doesn’t care if his OLTR fucks other men or not.

    If he doesn’t care about his girlfriend’s overall personality, then he and I are in disagreement. If he doesn’t care whether or not his girlfriend will have group sex with him, then we disagree as well. Yes, he can have group sex with his FBs, but I also want a girlfriend who will share a specific spiritual bond with me, which includes group sexual activities and a certain lifestyle.

    I don’t think that makes me a 1.0. I’m just a guy who’s very particular about his tastes, I guess, lol!

     

  90. @CurtsNOKC:

    Just seems to me that by letting them know you require them to sleep w other men basically could backfire and make them NOT want to, which would be counter intuitive to yiur goals.

    That wouldn’t be counter intuitive to my goals. My goal is to be with a woman who wants to fuck other men. If she doesn’t want to, then my goal would be to dump her.

    I thiink the closet thing I’ve had like this is when I had a talk w a chic that told me she loved WWM threesomes but since she wants to be Monogamous w me (because she liked me so much lmao) she didn’t want to now.

    Instant hard next for me!

    I was not happy and it did turn me off a tiny bit. It made her seem more conservative and boring and clingy and didn’t seem fair.

    Exactly. I can’t believe a woman would actually say, with a straight face no less, “I love you too much to give you a threesome.” Some women just aren’t smart, lol.

    I told her well, I’d rather you not like me as much honestly if it means I got to have threesomes with you , like the guys before me got to.

    But I knew if I told her this was a requirement, she said have said “fuck you”

    Then, in my judgment, she’s not compatible with you. I’d dump her.

    so I instead said this:

    “Angela I would love to experience that with you but knowing you dont w me because of jealous issus but u did with other men so it doesn’t sound as exciting now really. I’d rather do this with ladies that want to so it’s no biggie really. This is just one more reason it’s smart to stay non-monogamous so there is no pressure on either one of us.”

    We had one within a week or two after this lol.

    But don’t you see? You did tell her you require it, just not in those words. You were just more subtle than I would have been.

    In any case, congratulations on the threesome! The reason I would have dumped her instead is because I know (thanks to my abundance mentality) that there are so many girls out there who would be willing to have a threesome with me without playing this “I like you too much for a threesome” monogamy game. I guess I’m just less patient then you, lol. Why play these games with this girl and then get a threesome when I can have threesomes without playing these games? But again, it all comes down to personal temperament.

    But the lesson I learned is to not tell them threesomes are REQUIRED anymore but that I’m highly attracted to women that WANT to do them instead….

    Potato, potato.

    I’d rather get to the heart of a woman’s true personality by laying it out on the table. If this means I lose threesomes, I’ll simply gain them with women who would comply on my terms due to their organic natures (like my current girlfriend). But hey, if you prefer to subtly guide an otherwise reluctant woman into a threesome by framing it as beneficial to your attraction and happiness, so be it. Again, different temperaments.

    But the best friends deal sounds pretty hot and I might be a lil jealous right now cuz this one chic I am seeing has a very hot friend and I want that threesome sooo bad I can taste it.  But she prefers to do threesomes with strangers – ugh.  I gotta find a way to make this one happen lol.

    Offer her a threesome with you and another man first. Afterwards, she’ll be more malleable. Just make sure both you and the other dude make her cum intensely.

    Don’t you hate it when chics have all fatty friends?

    Until my current open relationship, I never really thought about it. This is my first OLTR. Before this, I was either monogamous and cheating (when I still believed in mono) or simply having casual sex. The whole “fuck my serious girlfriend’s friends” thing began for me with this OLTR. And yes, the friends are very hot!

    My ex wife was a 8 and all her friends were like a 3 and it always drove me crazy lol.  I would try to get her to make friends with that new hot neighbor that moved in and she would run away cuz she always had to be the hottest.  Glad those days are over….

    If I were mono, I’d just get my threesomes via cheating. If I were open, I’d introduce her to women who are hot, but slightly less hot than her. But yeah, I’d never fuck a woman’s ugly friends, lol.

  91. @WolfofGeorgeStreet:

    How can you break a rule that your girlfriend and you don’t actually have?

    Okay, I misunderstood you then. I thought you were referring to general rules inherent within the OLTR structure, as distinguished from voluntary rules made by the individual couple which separate one OLTR arrangement from another.

    OLTR rules are decided between the couple. Your OLTR sounds like a sexual free for all, that’s cool, but don’t expect an OLTR like that to last longer term (several+ years)

    She’s 23 and turns 24 this month (on the 21st). I’ve been sleeping with her since she was 19, but she was just an FB, FWB, and then an MLTR. She didn’t become my serious OLTR until she was 21. So we’ve been together as boyfriend/girlfriend for almost three years now.

    and/or not be full of drama,

    Yeah, there’s been some drama.

    by the sounds of it you don’t really expect it to last either

    I do, actually. We’re talking about having children. I just don’t expect it to last forever.

    or are perfectly happy to walk away from it without compromise.

    Correct. And before we make babies, we’ll do a BD style parenting plan.

    Of course that’s ok, but you can’t really compare that to the rules couples will set down if they expect to have a low drama OLTR that lasts a decade or more that involve alot of compromise etc.

    Low drama? I guess I have a higher tolerance for drama than BD and some others. And yes, I haven’t moved in with her yet. We’ll see how that changes things.

  92. pretty much all of them have boyfriends themselves whom they’re cheating on. (Ah, monogamy.)

    No, they have an open relationship too… their boyfriends just don’t know!  🙂

  93. @wolf while I agree with you that 9s aren’t nearly as prevalent as BD makes it seem, you’re forgetting that the majority of his come back to him and he’s been doing this a long time. Let’s say you can convert one 9/10 to a FB every two months. In a year that’s 6 9/10s. In two years that’s 12. BD wants two(minimum) and one OLTR. With 6 new chicks ‘on rotation’ (since he doesn’t break up with them) every year it doesn’t take long before you can stop looking and live off what you’ve built. I think that’s warping the stats in his head a bit. Also remember that he started this when there were more, easier, hot chicks online. Further, OKC wants you to do a paid account, so they hide the hottest chicks behind a paywall(supposedly).

    Myself, from online game not SDD, I can only seem to pull 3-5’s consistently, 7’s sometimes, and 9-10’s never. The 9-10’s I’ve fucked have come from real life things(or SDD), not online. But I live in one of the worst areas for guys in the US. Also, with SDD I never drop more than a drink price on the chicks; and they don’t stick around for more than once or twice.

  94. I just suggest any readers who takes your scarcity comment seriously jump on any of the major dating sites and have a look at Portland and see how ‘abundant’ all these 9+’s are.

    Now you’re purposely misquoting me. Please refrain from doing that. I have never said 9+ are abundant, in any city. I have said for years that the vast majority of women on online dating sites are ugly as fuck. I’ve also said you can find hot girls if you hunt hard enough, particularly if you pay the dating site to open up the better looking girls (as in the case of OKCupid).

    Her SMV is severely diminished at that age, no matter how hot you still find her to be.

    SMV is not relevant in any way to the conversation of having a long-term OLTR, and I’m not sure why you’re even bringing it up other than as a clumsy way to attempt to insult me. If my goal was to have an OLTR of high SMV, I’d have to get into a serious relationship with an 18 or 19 year-old (yikes) then dump her a few years later when she turned 23 or so, and do the same thing all over again with a new teenager, and do that for the rest of my life.

    If that sounds like the lifestyle you want to live, then go right ahead. I don’t like drama and chaos, so I’d rather have someone in my age range as my long-term OLTR with young hot FBs on the side who can be replaced as needed.

    It seems that there is a fine line between “bossing a woman around” vs. simply removing her from your life if she doesn’t make you happy.

    No there is not. They are two completely different things.

    Moreover, if you thought a woman would not do what you liked, you would not move in with her in the first place.

    My vision of the two is blurred.

    “There’s a fine line between 2+2=4 and 2+2=5. My vision of the two is blurred.”

    The alpha 1.0 (the way I understand him) doesn’t break up with a woman if she refuses to cooperate. Instead he yells, gets into fights with her, shouts a lot, and may even transition into physical abuse if he doesn’t get his way.

    I, on the other hand, will just next her if her character doesn’t suit me.

    That is not what you said above. Either you’re changing your viewpoints on the fly, or you’re having a lot of trouble communicating your views here.

    The alt-right is a brutal enemy to everything we (both as libertarians and seducers) hold dear.

    Then why are you so enthusiastic about people like Donald Trump, Milo, etc? If what you just said is true, you would hate these people, not worship them.

    As Thomas Jefferson said, “Liberty is not a play-thing for a child.” If you love your children, you will boss them around

    I agree completely. Small children are not adults, thus have no rights to freedom. You must set rules and consequences for them to a degree. But you don’t go out of your way to control their behavior if you’re an Alpha 2.0. It this means I’m not going to encourage my teenage daughter to watch porn, to go fuck guys, or to believe in certain things like libertarianism or red pill. These things are her decisions. I’m talking more about her duties and behavior around the house, etc.

    Read my book again on the parts about raising kids. Raising kids by example is just as powerful as raising them via control, and it’s easier, less work, less conflict, better for your relationship with them, and takes less time. I never encouraged my kids to be libertarians, ever, in any way, and told them they need to make up their own minds about their political beliefs… yet today they’re both libertarians. Hmmm.

    Imagine if you are doing something that turns your girlfriend off. But she doesn’t tell you about it. She just nexts you without even giving you a chance to stop. That’s unfair.

    Please stop being dense. You know my material well enough to know that’s not how it works, particularly in a very serious OLTR.

    My sexual turn ons are very specific, I’m afraid.

    So are mine. Doesn’t mean I have to engage in Alpha 1.0 behaviors.

    And no, so far it hasn’t been difficult with my current girl (although I guess you’ve read about the various dramas her and I have been through).

    Yup. You have a much higher tolerance for drama than me, as I noted in a comment above. Thus Alpha 1.0 drama fallout won’t bother you as much as it would me.

    I don’t think that makes me a 1.0.

    It does, just a very rare kind. Your comment confirms what I said; you’re taking 2.0 philosophies and applying them to a 1.0 framework.

    As I said, to each their own. If that’s what you want, go for it.

    while I agree with you that 9s aren’t nearly as prevalent as BD makes it seem

    Once again, I have never, ever said 9s online were “prevalent.” I challenge any of you to go look through the archive and tell me where I said, or even implied, anything like that. Indeed I’ve said the opposite many times; that they’re hard to find. And I’ve also said that if you spend a great deal of time looking through hundreds of profiles in any large city, you will find a few women in the 8-9 range, particularly when the ages of these women drops below 23. This is even more true on SDD sites, as well as normal sites where you pay to open up the hotter women (like OKC).

    If it makes a few of you feel better to believe that I go around telling people that dating sites are loaded with super hot 9s (haha!) so I can sell more books or whatever, then you’re welcome to that belief, but my writing is very precise, and that’s not what I’m doing, nor have ever done.

  95. BD I’m so happy to have found your blog. I’ve been questioning monogamy since I was in my early 20s (I’m 35 now) and I wish your content would have been around back then. After a failed LTR with the father of my sons, I know that open relationships have more viability. My question to you is: how do you plan to maintain the current level of attraction you have for PF while living together long term?

  96. Pink Firefly sounds like she’s smoking hot. Looks like your main girl will be your hottest!

    Haha, thanks, I think I’ll have to agree with you!

    Going to the chapel and you’re gonna get marrrrried…… Awwww you found your girl that’s *not like the rest. Haha!

    Of course you picked someone who played the ASD card.

    Well, I hope we get married someday and I do hope I’m not like the rest as I wouldn’t want to be just another blonde FB. How do you know I played the ASD card? I didn’t realize you were on our dates with us? I actually didn’t play the ASD card, if I had, BD would have been long gone.

    Pink Firefly, you rock.

    Thank you!!

    I have no doubt that your OLTR is very attractive FOR HER AGE

    Her SMV is severely diminished at that age, no matter how hot you still find her to be.

    A woman in her 30’s can be just as hot as girls in their 20’s. Women are in their prime in their 30’s, you’re missing some fun!  It’s really too bad that you think women in their 30’s are of lower quality, you must not be looking for a long-term OLTR? I wouldn’t think having a long-term OLTR with a 20 year old would be very promising.

  97. @Parade

    But I live in one of the worst areas for guys in the US.

    San Francisco obviously, yes it’s tough there. NYC seems more than viable to be able to meet at least a few 9’s a year and keep them around. Here is even tougher than SF. Even getting a slim woman who isn’t ugly out for drinks from online is a massive achievement.

    I’ve just had 2 girls from Tinder that I had PERFECT first dates with (I promise you they were perfect and both were very attracted and the dates were very sexually charged) go completely no contact when pitching a second date because one of them I wouldn’t take for a romantic picnic on the beach (for a second date!!) and the other one wouldn’t do drinks again, and then when I offered to take her to a 5* restaurant, she’d already had another guy take her there recently so said she wasn’t interested in going there again even though she liked it and to pick another place because she wanted me to show her somewhere ‘new’, she went no contact when I joked about meeting at McDonalds, hahaha.

    Of course taking her to a ‘new’ restaurant misses the point, the point is for us to be spending time together regardless of where it is, and in any other city these girls would have compromised on their demands after having such a great first date, but here they don’t care, another rich, handsome, charming, sexually confident guy with game is hitting up her phone right now looking to fill that slot. They were a 7 and 8 respectively, so not even 9+ range (the 9+’s online here are next level crazy demanding).

    So either it’s time for us all to move to Portland because it’s one of the greatest markets on earth, or BD is exaggerating.

    @BD

    SMV is not relevant in any way to the conversation of having a long-term OLTR, and I’m not sure why you’re even bringing it up other than as a clumsy way to attempt to insult me.

    This is not an insult at all, and that is a scary comment from someone that professes to be a master at this stuff and sells books/advice on the topic.

    A woman’s SMV relative to your own is THE MOST important factor when considering how easy/hard it’s going to be to keep her in an OLTR for any length of time. The higher a girls SMV the harder it is to keep her around so it’s crucial to understand a girls SMV relative to yours if you intend on having an OLTR with her AND it’s crucial to understand the SMV of the girls a guy is getting and keeping if he’s giving you advice on the matter.

    Also important is understanding the dating market he’s operating in and what impact that has on relative SMV’s eg. a female 9 in NYC has a much lower SMV than a female 9 in San Francisco. Likewise a male millionaire in San Francisco has a much lower SMV than a male millionaire in Medellin Colombia, and so on.

    And I’ve also said that if you spend a great deal of time looking through hundreds of profiles in any large city, you will find a few women in the 8-9 range

    Find them, yes, willing to respond to you unless you are a male model, different story. But I’ve dated in the US so I know you’re coming from a different reference point because I experienced it myself there. But I still think that you implying that all the women you are seeing are 9+ is laughable, even there.

    @Pink Firefly

    A woman in her 30’s can be just as hot as girls in their 20’s. Women are in their prime in their 30’s, you’re missing some fun!

    Hahahaha, whatever helps you sleep at night kitten.

    For reference my OLTR wife is in her early 30’s and we’ve been together since she was in her early 20’s, I am also in my early 30’s. Also one of the girls I’m currently seeing is a 37yo mother and print model, very attractive for her age, I wanted to tick super hot MILF off the bucket list.

    I can honestly say women in their 30’s are not in their ‘prime’, and on that point, even your BF would disagree with you. They might be more mature and less hassle, but this is actually just a result of their lower SMV.

    If 37yo women were still as attractive and sought after in the dating market as 21yo women, they’d be massively flakey, immature, pains in the asses too. You’re just more grounded because not as many men want you now as the 21yo’s you are competing against to secure a high value mate.

  98. @Blackdragon –

    One of the things I experienced during my OLTR was that after about 6 months, sex became more difficult to accomplish.  First, we agreed to plan it more since she worked night shifts and we both very busy.

    Then, she claimed that felt too business like and said she wanted me to “Wooo” her more.

    When I tried to cuddle and be romantic, she wasn’t in the mood so I go to the bedroom to watch porn and masturbate.  This pisses her off too.

    Then, next day she wanted to have sex I said yes.  We did.  Next day I wanted to but she said no.

    So, my question is – if you are living with someone and sex starts to become a weapon or used for control or only when she is in the mood, what would YOU say and do about this?   It was extremely difficult to soft next a lady while living together.  I eventually moved my bed into the other bedroom and moved out and we still date some.  But it is ALWAYS on her terms and when she wants to.  It’s like I turned into her sex toy basically lol.   It is almost like I am her booty call now lol.  She is a 9 so it’s difficult to say no too but man it feels weird….

    Your thoughts?

    Do I just tell her No the next time she wants to or that I have plans but would like to another night? Play hard to get?

    If I am living with her, is it the same approach? Do you just say, “Ok I am going out to screw someone else see ya later” or a more polite version of “Ok no problem sweetie. I am going out for a lil bit so see ya tomorrow or later tonight ok. Love ya”

    Obviously, she will know I am going to get some but who cares. The alternative is to set home on my ass and her control me.

    Man does it get more complex when you move in!

  99. I forgot to add that she (my OLTR) would always ask, “so what are you doing tonight” as a way to see if I had plans to see someone else.   So, I began to say, “well that depends on what we are doing wink wink”.

    This is very tricky to me!

    I am a planner dude and want my intimacy and would honestly prefer to plan it so women can’t use it for control.  I like to know if my main chic (OLTR) does not want to have sex tonight than tell me now so I can text my 2nd or 3rd chic to make other plans.

    But many times she would say IDK yet or “lets see” how things are going.  I hate this!  I feel like I am being controlled and it is on purpose so I don’t screw anyone else.  Sometimes they will even say it with a grin as to make you think you are getting some and then she is going to bed at 9 and I am like WTF just happened!@#%$

    Do you see the delima here?  It is almost like Planning sex needs to be required for a Alpha 2 planner dude to be able to keep his outcome independence while living with an OLTR.  Do you feel that this is a reasonable request for an Very Busy Alpha 2 to make of his GF?

     

     

  100. How do you know I played the ASD card? I didn’t realize you were on our dates with us? I actually didn’t play the ASD card, if I had, BD would have been long gone.

     

    If you’re wondering, yes, because she’s over the age 33, I had to put up with a bunch of ASD and bullshit when we first met when I wanted to move to sex quickly.

    Interesting…

  101. how do you plan to maintain the current level of attraction you have for PF while living together long term?

    That’s a very long and involved answer, but the summary is that I will never beta myself, which is the number one non-biological cause of a woman losing attraction for a long-term partner.

    A woman’s SMV relative to your own is THE MOST important factor when considering how easy/hard it’s going to be to keep her in an OLTR for any length of time. The higher a girls SMV the harder it is to keep her around

    Then by that logic, we should all get OLTRs who are in their late 40s or 50s. Yet you just complained my OLTR‘s SMV is too low because she’s over 30.

    You’re all over the map here and you’re not making any sense. This will be my last comment to you here in this thread. Feel free to believe whatever you like.

    Also important is understanding the dating market he’s operating in and what impact that has on relative SMV’s eg. a female 9 in NYC has a much lower SMV than a female 9 in San Francisco. Likewise a male millionaire in San Francisco has a much lower SMV than a male millionaire in Medellin Colombia, and so on.

    I agree completely.

    I still don’t think SMV is a factor the typical guy needs to worry about as long has he maximizes his appearance, game, confidence, and outcome independence (and perhaps moves to a different city if he lives in a really bad one like SF or Toronto). I explained this all here.

    SMV is something I literally never give any thought to, and my woman life is fantastic and has been that way for almost 10 years. You seem obsessed with it. Great; let’s agree to disagree.

    One of the things I experienced during my OLTR was that after about 6 months, sex became more difficult to accomplish.  First, we agreed to plan it more since she worked night shifts and we both very busy.

    Then, she claimed that felt too business like and said she wanted me to “Wooo” her more.

    When I tried to cuddle and be romantic, she wasn’t in the mood so I go to the bedroom to watch porn and masturbate.  This pisses her off too.

    Then, next day she wanted to have sex I said yes.  We did.  Next day I wanted to but she said no.

    Just reading that made me tired.

    If sex is that complicated / difficult for her, I would cut way back on how often you try to have sex with her and fuck your FBs more.

    One of the beauties of nonmonogamy is that if your girlfriend/wife is saying no to sex often, it’s perfectly okay because you have another outlet (your FBs). This is compared to monogamy where if your girlfriend/wife starts saying no to sex (and virtually every woman you live with will eventually start doing this), you have a very, very serious problem that will cause all kinds of conflict and will likely end the relationship, at least eventually.

    if you are living with someone and sex starts to become a weapon or used for control or only when she is in the mood, what would YOU say and do about this?

    I would stop trying to fuck her (or at least cut way back on it) and fuck my FBs more.

    She has every right to say no to sex whenever she wants. And you have every right to fuck your FBs more often if she does this. It’s 100% fair and completely up to her.

    It was extremely difficult to soft next a lady while living together.

    Correction, it’s impossible to soft next a woman you live with (unless you maintain two residences). This is why you need to be so damn sure about a woman before you move in with her. Most guys move in with women way too fast, then get “surprised” later by all the typical shit. Dumb.

    But it is ALWAYS on her terms and when she wants to.  It’s like I turned into her sex toy basically lol.   It is almost like I am her booty call now lol.  She is a 9 so it’s difficult to say no too but man it feels weird….

    You’re a beta. Or becoming one. Do you think a guy like me, or George, or Jack would obey her like her little doggy the way you are?

    If I am living with her, is it the same approach? Do you just say, “Ok I am going out to screw someone else see ya later” or a more polite version of “Ok no problem sweetie. I am going out for a lil bit so see ya tomorrow or later tonight ok. Love ya”

    You could do that but delivering that way in that moment would likely create drama. However, that should be your frame. “If you don’t give it to me, that’s fine, but then I’ll get it from someone else. So it’s your choice, Sweetheart.” That’s your frame and your attitude, but not what you say.

    An example. If she says no to sex, pull away, stop bugging her, and say, “Ok. No problem,” then pull out your phone and do something on it. Or maybe leave the room. Be sure to keep a neutral or happy expression. Don’t get mad, don’t get frustrated, and don’t say anything. If she’s already aware you have a FB or two on rotation, she’ll get the point fast. Women are very smart.

    Women can only use sex as a weapon against you if you let them.

    If she keeps saying no as a pattern of behavior, you need to have a conversation with her about it (but NOT right before or right after you’re trying to have sex with her). Get a feeling for how often she wants to have sex, and let her know that if that amount is not nearly enough for you, then that’s fine, but you’re going to have to get it elsewhere. Then see what she says, and figure it out together like adults.

    And yes, don’t “plan” sex and tell her that you expect it on Wednesday and Friday nights. We can work that way as men but women hate that approach.

    I’ll say it again: the vast majority of women are eventually going to want less sex than you if you move in with them, and that’s even if you stay Alpha and to everything right. (Proper Alpha relationship management delays this event, but it does not prevent it.) That’s how women are wired. Develop a plan of action for this so you’re prepared for when this happens, instead of being stupidly shocked by it, which is what most men do.

    If 100% of men fully understood and accepted that their Sweet Little Angel™ they’re moving in with will eventually start cutting back on the sex in a few months/years, you’d have a lot more men in society reject long-term monogamy and demand OLTRs instead.

    The only reason monogamy is still popular because most people still think it works.

    Interesting…

    It’s an issue of degree. Of course PF gave me some ASD initially; she’s over 33 and that’s what those women do. But she didn’t do it nearly to the degree most over-33 women do, and to the degree Lovergirl was implying by talking about “playing the ASD card.” Again, if Firefly demonstrated the typical amount of over-33 ASD when we met, she wouldn’t have made it past date number three with me (likely date number two), and I mean that literally.

    One of the things I initially liked about PF was the comparative lack of ASD as compared to most other over-33 women I’ve been on first/second dates with. The sexual shit that came out of her mouth on our first date made me very happy… she said some things most other “I’m a lady” over-33s would never say on a first date. Cool.

  102. Hahahaha, whatever helps you sleep at night kitten.

    Damn, dude.

    I’ll admit I’m a noob, having been TMM‘d/LTR‘d 21 of my 23 adult years, but I’ll tell you what: whatever drop off there is physically from a woman’s 20’s to her 30’s, if she takes impeccable care of herself, the increased intelligence and success more than makes up for it. I’m not concerned about hot women in their 30’s because they’re “post wall” but instead because I’m a good looking loser who’s useless to such a woman unless she wants a NSA railing every once in a while (I almost want to challenge BD as I think I could pull that off, beating ASD of 33+ types by being both truly good looking and truly a loser).

    But I’m not going to protect my own ego by saying that these women are any less attractive.

    And I’m damn sure not going to insult Blackdragon’s girlfriend. You would not have made that statement above if we were all drinking at a bar.

  103. But I still think that you implying that all the women you are seeing are 9+ is laughable, even there.

    @Wolf: you know, everytime you and BD do your usual sparring, I come back to the same conclusion: you’ll settle it when BD lets us see one or two of the women he’s dating. Before then I can see why you’re sort of stalemated, because your points are only fully valid if BD is exaggerating, and BD’s points are valid if his girls are really that hot. You should agree to disagree till we see some pics.

    Other than that, no offense, but did you consider that maybe BD just has stronger game, so that he can pull hotter chicks than you consider doable given a non-exceptional smv?

  104. But many times she would say IDK yet or “lets see” how things are going.  I hate this!  I feel like I am being controlled and it is on purpose so I don’t screw anyone else.

    While I (a corporate girl) generally like the idea of scheduling sex just to make sure it happens, I can assure you that a woman’s willingness to have sex with you is dependent on many factors, incl. how she perceives your motivations to have sex with her. And that can change from one minute to another. So no, you’re not being controlled. Most likely she genuinely doesn’t know (which, again, can be for many reasons – reaching from not feeling well physically to not being sure about you as a partner).

  105. you’ll settle it when BD lets us see one or two of the women he’s dating

    Just to chime in here. I once availed myself of BD’s coaching services, and during one of our sessions he showed me pictures of four or five women he was dating at the time. I had to talk him into it since he was reluctant to show me, but he agreed when I promised confidentiality. We had both signed NDAs.

    I can report that all of these women were very beautiful, every one of them. I was a little surprised. BD’s wording such as “what most men would consider a 9 or a 10” is accurate in describing what I saw. I agree with the position that there is no such thing as objective values when it comes to these numerical rating systems, but most guys I know would go gaga over these women.

    I suppose it’s possible BD was lying, but I’ve known him for a long time and I’ve never seen him lie. He also said that these were the “best” pictures of these women, so maybe they don’t look as good in real life. I think he mentioned that one or two of them were part of his sugar daddy experiments, so maybe they received money from him at some point(?), but as I said, they were all very attractive.

    I can’t make remarks regarding specific numbers like 9 or 10, but when BD says he dates beautiful women, I believe him. Take it as you will.

  106. I think he mentioned that one or two of them were part of his sugar daddy experiments,

    SDD is trivial, even in my city. I never have to throw money at the chicks, lays usually on the first date, 7-10’s. They don’t usually stick around for long, though, and are not representative of the typical attractiveness of chicks I can pull from non-sdd online game.

    I wouldn’t use any pictures of them as representative of anything.

  107. I wouldn’t use any pictures of them as representative of anything.

    That’s a little extreme as a position, don’t you think? I’ve been online dating for many years and I find pics of women are, while not 100% reliable, quite representative of the genuine article in most cases. I find it hard to believe that all the women he showed me were unattractive in real life.

    I agree with what you said about SDD though.

  108. Well, I was being a bit hyperbolic.

     

    Really I meant “don’t use them as representative of anything other than what you can do with SDD”.

  109. Congrats, the women in their 30s are the toughest by far to crack. I’m ex military, 37 year old, no problem getting women in their 20s for a little sex, but since I have no car (by choice) and I’m a manager and server at a restaurant, I last 1 or 2 dates with women in their 30s, and I’m the one that gets ‘hard nexted’ when they find out I’m not the beta provider they’re looking for. Which sucks, because there are some smoking hot women in their 30s out in Seattle.

    I think some of the small blow back you’ve gotten in these comments is because they think OLTR means you’ve gone soft and the blog will change. I just found this a week ago, and between all of the previous posts you’ve written, and your book which just got to my house today, plus your business blogs (which I’m almost as interested in as your women advice) there is more than enough reading material out there. It’s your life, and you do you, congrats on how well everything worked out, wish you guys nothing but the best

  110. @K

    Just seems like a lady that prefers monogamous relationships and is so concerned w catching new STD would then be willing to put out more than 1 x per week and/or schedule the sex in if she didn’t want me getting it elsewhere lol.

    I mean, what women would think that would make any man happy and / or lead to him cheating, which is then just a Fake monogamous relationship. If sex is THE #1 issue for relationships and is typically assumed when your dating but not living together, why can’t it be assumed once you move in?

    Just seems like the only people out their that should ever entertain the monogamous idea are those that can pretty much say yes to sex all the time and be able to schedule it. Most cannot do this so most should never be Monogamous….

  111. It is almost like Planning sex needs to be required for a Alpha 2 planner dude to be able to keep his outcome independence while living with an OLTR.

    No it doesn’t. First off, you’re not going to get anywhere if you try to plan a time with someone you’re living with to have sex. You’re also never going to get anywhere if you straight up ask them “let’s have sex”. Hell, that shit wouldn’t even work on me if I was living with a girl and she said “let’s have sex” if I was tired or not in the mood. Even planning sex is tricky….what sounds good now may not sound good a few hours from now.

    But, if you learn how to turn them on and know what buttons to push, it will greatly increase your chance of having sex when you’re in the mood. Sounds like you need to learn how to be a little more spontaneous. Planning sex just seems way too business like, and if you’re going to treat it that way then soon enough you’ll start having to do chores in order to have sex.

  112. @Tug

    I think u hit on another reason I don’t like living w another lady much.

    When dating but living apart, it’s usually assumed your gonna have sex and if not, many times the lady will make sure u know that she is on her period or not feeling n the mood. Basically, it’s 2 people PLANNING to hang out and be intimate in advance.

    Many times these dates would be preluded my some sexting too to set the mood.

    The ladies never have a problem w us wanting sex while dating and living apart and the “scheduled intimacy” is just assumed kinda. It’s expected if she is coming over to my place.

    Shit, if I wasn’t living w a chic and she asked to “see me” and she came over and then I told her I was not n the mood, I wouldn’t blame her for running out the door.

    Once u move in, it’s like a total 180 degree flip and now it’s always just wing it. Woo me. Go w the flow. This is totally opposite of how it’s done when living apart and can be very tricky to navigate in my experience.

  113. @BD:

    That is not what you said above. Either you’re changing your viewpoints on the fly, or you’re having a lot of trouble communicating your views here.

    It’s the latter. When I said I’d “demand” she sleep with other men, I meant that that is my criteria for not nexting her. I’d prefer to talk with her about it in order to give her a chance to make the decision on her own, and then next her or not based on her decision. Again, a woman must have a specific personality (especially as it relates to sex) in order to turn me on.

    Then why are you so enthusiastic about people like Donald Trump, Milo, etc? If what you just said is true, you would hate these people, not worship them.

    Um….dude, Milo is NOT alt right! He is a self admitted cultural libertarian. The alt right are cultural authoritarians. Milo is one of us, not them! You actually believe that a gay Jew who won’t shut up about the endless stream of black dick in his mouth is in favor of a close knit “high trust society” with neighbors observing neighbors? You actually think he’s an alt right white nationalist tradcon? Please man! He is a super sex-positive free speech absolutist and an extreme individualist!

    I explained in my last reply to you why I support Trump. He represents an existential threat to political correctness and left wing authoritarianism.

     I never encouraged my kids to be libertarians, ever, in any way, and told them they need to make up their own minds about their political beliefs… yet today they’re both libertarians. Hmmm.

    Hmmm, indeed. I’ve noticed that there are two types of kids in this respect. First is a child who won’t do something if they are shamed away from it. Second is a child who will precisely do it because you’re trying to shame them not to, as an act of rebellion and a way to feel cool. You shaming them for it makes the forbidden thing even more attractive and addictive.

    I will indeed have to tailor my parenting goals to my children’s individual psychologies. And I’m certainly not opposed to leading by example either. I guess I’m just more outcome dependent than you when it comes to my own flesh and blood.

    Please stop being dense. You know my material well enough to know that’s not how it works, particularly in a very serious OLTR.

    But that’s why, in this hypothetical scenario, I wanted to have the conversation with her first before nexting her. You interpreted that as me “threatening” her in a very 1.0 way. I’m interpreting it as simply giving her all the facts so she can make an informed decision after learning how I feel.

    It does, just a very rare kind. Your comment confirms what I said; you’re taking 2.0 philosophies and applying them to a 1.0 framework.

    Alright. I guess I’m a hybrid then.

     

  114. Man, all I’m gonna say about the above is that I’m SO glad I never have experienced women through that Tomassi SMV lens of 21 is the hottest and “post-wall” women over 30 (mostly used in MGTOW circles) aren’t that attractive anymore, etc. That was complete B.S. for me when I was 18 and that has never changed. A women is either hot or she isn’t.

    As BD stated throughout the blog (and 2.0 book I think, one of the best books ever btw) he has enjoyed women of all ages and the main reason his FB‘s are in the 18-29 range (same here) is because of 30+ ASD B.S. and attitude/drama 30+ women usually give you. NOT because they aren’t that attractive anymore. Big difference. 

    I’ve actually passed over hot 18+ for so-called cougars and 25-year-olds quite a lot. Same for the whole rating system. You either want to fuck a girl or you don’t. Simple as that. I like how Mark Manson once said it (and I paraphrase): rating women is pedestalizing women. I don’t pedestalize. I either want to fuck ’em or I don’t. He has gone completely smurf nowadays (he recently got a TMM with a Brazilian girl it seems *facepalm*). And another one bites the dust.

  115. @JudoJohn

    And I’m damn sure not going to insult Blackdragon’s girlfriend. You would not have made that statement above if we were all drinking at a bar.

    It’s not an insult, it’s a fact, and I would absolutely say that in person, because I’m right, see here:

    https://www.bustle.com/articles/40157-okcupid-says-men-are-most-attracted-to-20-year-olds-and-heres-why-it-totally-doesnt-matter

    (Just the graph is all that matters, ignore the coping text of the article from the female who can’t handle the truth)

    Her statement was that women in their 30’s can be as hot as women in their 20’s. While this statement in itself can be true, because a slim, attractive, 30 something is going to be hotter than a fat, ugly, 20 something the fact remains that the hottest women in their 20’s will be hotter to the vast majority of men than the hottest women in their 30’s.

    I can assure you that BD’s GF is not hotter than she was at 21 UNLESS, she was out of shape at 21 or wasn’t doing herself up then, or had shaved off all her hair, or has since gotten alot of plastic surgery that has made her better than before etc.

    If she maximized her looks when she was 21, then she was hotter then than she is now, simple.

    @Gil Galad

    Other than that, no offense, but did you consider that maybe BD just has stronger game, so that he can pull hotter chicks than you consider doable given a non-exceptional smv?

    If we were talking nightclubs, bars or street, then I’d say this could be a factor, but online, no. There’s only so much ‘game’ you can put into a profile, messages and text/phone. At the end of the day if you’re not getting responses from the very few 9+’s that are on the site when you’ve maximized the above, it’s because she has better options (which online usually means getting spammed by 20+ male model looking guys a day and 100’s more messages from everyday good looking to average to ugly guys).

    When it comes to online dating, it’s kind of similar to a guy telling you he bought a 3br, luxury, penthouse apartment in NYC for $500k he found on a real estate website. You’ll think WOW, that’s amazing! Then you go to the same real estate websites and search for those $500k 3br PH apartments in NYC, don’t find any, and then a bunch of guys tell you you must be doing something wrong, because HE bought a 3br PH apartment in NYC for $500k and if you’re paying $10m+ for one you are definitely overpaying… catch my drift.

    To give you an idea of the sort of girls I date and my results. Over the past few years my side girls have included a super hot 20yo heiress to a very well known fortune (I suppose many guys might rate her a 10, I’d disagree and say 9), a fashion model who had posters of her in some of the most prominent places in the city and rolled with girls that have fucked Leo etc., I’d say she was an 8-8.5, A hot stripper/student around an 8 when done up.

    Those were all from online, but those girls ARE scarce, especially online. Your bread and butter is always going to be 7’s. These hotter girls are outliers. As a side note I also went on a date with an 18yo catwalk model out here from NYC recently that is with one of the top 4 modelling agencies in the world and has been in alot of high profile shoots and shows, you’ve probably seen her if you ever go shopping at some of the big US department stores, she sent me the first message on Tinder.

    I’d give her a 9.5 in person, she was very excited after the first date and kept talking about how she wanted a second. When I contacted her for the second date she refused to meet at night for dinner or drinks and insisted on me taking her out for breakfast!? That was where it ended. Didn’t fuck her, and another outlier. When I was in NYC I have a few fashion model types hitting me up online, bit more common there, but not really enough to build a harem of them or base your entire sex life around them.

    To me 10’s are Victoria’s Secret models, or girls who absolutely could be. These girls are extremely scarce, especially online. which was my original argument. I’ve fucked one 10 my entire life and it cost me a small fortune, never fucked one for free but I’ve tried, I don’t think I have a chance.

    BD will say that I’m chasing the ‘top 1%’ of women and my views are not relevant to most men, then talk about all the 10’s he dates… So what the hell are 10’s!? 10’s ARE the top 1% of women, if not less. Alot of girls I date are actually your run-of-the-mill cute 7’s and maybe a ONS with a 6 here or there if they invite me straight over for sex without me having to meet them and take them out first, because the 9+’s are simply too scarce and when you do find them their demands are often insane.

    @Parade

    don’t use them as representative of anything other than what you can do with SDD

    Yeah, unless you are categorically telling these women up front (before ever sleeping with them) that you are never going to pay them, not going to buy them gifts, or take them on holidays etc. then I still class that as using money to get them which was a caveat in my original comment, because you are essentially leading them on given the nature of these sites, even if you are not paying them or blatantly dangling the carrot.

    They’re assuming (foolishly) that there is a payday for them at some point, that is why they are fucking you and that is why they disappear when the money/gifts don’t materialize. So I agree.

  116. I can honestly say women in their 30’s are not in their ‘prime’, and on that point, even your BF would disagree with you. They might be more mature and less hassle, but this is actually just a result of their lower SMV.

    I don’t think we should get too technical with this because each woman is an individual.  I think a prime age range could have varying degrees.  Like when you are 20, that is a prime age, but you are still approaching an even better age, maybe 23-25, and then after that you can still be in your prime but starting to get older, so it is starting to drop off a little, but you haven’t reached the point of being a washed-up, old has-been by any means.  Lower SMV yes, but we haven’t flat-lined either; it is a slow process. I would say that a woman’s prime could range from 20-39, but this would only apply to women who keep up their physical appearance, health and fitness the best that they can.

  117. @Wolf: I understand your perspective. It’s also possible that some men don’t rate as harshly as others. Also, subjectively I don’t find V’s S models to be a golden standard; they’re too skinny/”rectangular” (no enough hourglass shape) for my taste and some of them actually have ugly faces; the only quality they all have is perfect fitness level, maybe. On my personal scale, chicks between 9-10 are roughly the top 1% of premenopausal women, which means there’s definitely thousands of them in a big city. So maybe I rate a bit easily, because there are men out there who will say they need weeks to see a single 9 in a big city.

    NB: by “better game” I meant that, regardless of how low the response rate is online, what matters is that *once you have the chick on a date with you*, your n°of bangs to n°of dates ratio is very high. It doesn’t matter that the average 9 wants a guy with a much higher perceived SMV than yours who also showers her with money, if there’s one in twenty who demands less.

    @Bulma: in terms of being a ‘quality girlfriend’, a woman can hit her prime at virtually any age, really; I guess your ability to be a quality OLTR while your looks are still good probably peaks around 28 and stays relatively high with some provisos. But in terms of physical beauty, nothing beats the late teens. Early twenties look better because they’ve had some years to learn how to optimize their image. And late thirties can still be very hot because given adequate diet and exercise, aging in your third and fourth decades can be kept negligible. Not so when you’re past 40-45, at least not with current technology.

  118. I can honestly say women in their 30’s are not in their ‘prime’,

    Sorry to hear you haven’t experience a women in her prime! Since you’re obviously not a woman, I don’t think you could fully make that call whether or not a woman is in her prime.

    Being a woman, I know from experience, that my sex drive has skyrocketed since being in my 30’s. Although each woman is different, you might find that by doing some research you’ll see many studies out there confirm that woman are at their sexual peak when they are in their 30’s.  They actually say women in their 30s and early 40s are significantly more sexual than younger women.

    It’s been said that women ages 30 through 45 have been reported not only to having more sexual fantasies (and more intense sexual fantasies) than women ages 18 through 26 but also having more sex, period. And they are more willing than younger women to have casual sex, even one-night stands.

    In other words, despite the girls-gone-wild image of promiscuous college women, it is women in their middle years who are America’s most sexually industrious.  Believe it or not women in their 20’s are considered ‘experimental’ rather than experienced lovers. I believe women in their 30’s have an increased sense of self and by this time have established confidence in the bedroom. You really are missing out on some amazing 30 something women, who are in their prime and can definitely rock your world.

    Luckily for BD, he gets to experience women in their prime because he isn’t so closed minded to being with a woman who is no longer in their 20’s.

  119. Hello guys! WolfOfGeorgeStreet and Gil Galad,

    Good points – I definitely think I looked my very best when I was 20-30.  The thing is, when I was in my early twenties, I still felt kind of awkward and insecure, even though I looked fresher physically.  So now I’m older than before; I still look good but I can tell I’ve aged a little, except now I’m more confident and finally feeling that way, so it’s really weird!

    A woman in her 30’s can be just as hot as girls in their 20’s. Women are in their prime in their 30’s, you’re missing some fun!

    Hello Pink Firefly!  This is the positive attitude of those of us have who have put in some work; and the key words are: “can be”. Work out, stay active, protect your skin, eat well, get plenty of sleep, drink lots of water, etc.  Someone either does or they don’t.  I agree, girls in their twenties are more desirable……..but since we can’t go back in time, we do the next best thing; make efforts to preserve our young appearance.  Thanks for being a good role model!

  120. @Wolf
    I don’t mention money and I don’t promise anything. If they ask outright I imply they’re a prostitute in a nice way. Not actually this line but something to the effect of: It’s great you want to sell sex but that’s not what I’m after.

    I agree with you that they’re mostly expecting a payday somewhere along the way, and I’m not worried about them sticking around. They’re great for a lay or two, easy and hot, and this in one of the worst cities in the US. I could never build a stable out of them, but if I’m just looking for sex quickly…well, text for 10 minutes, get a 1-2hr drink, and we’re back at my place fucking(or sometimes they’ll come right over).

    I’m not complaining, and I know exactly why they don’t stick around. As you said, they’re mostly doing SDD for gifts/cash/trips/a payday of some sort. I’m offering them orgasms and sex. My point above was that you really can’t say ‘look at this 10 I banged the other day from SDD’ they’re all over the place there and trivial to bang once or twice. If you’re dating her and not spending for a few months then great, let’s talk. Otherwise it’s similar to saying ‘look at this 10 I just banged from the escort agency!’ Great if you’re looking for an escort, not really representative otherwise.

  121. Since you’re obviously not a woman, I don’t think you could fully make that call whether or not a woman is in her prime.

    I guess BD hasn’t introduced you to the concept of “female solipsism”. 😉

    How a woman perceives here own desire level has very little to do with men’s desire for her, and her own perception of how “good to go” she is has very little bearing on how a man will experience dating her, relative to younger women.

    Like BD, I sometimes find women in their 30s and 40s attractive and date them, but they generally don’t generate raw lust for me quite the way younger women do, and they often put up ridiculous roadblocks .

    Having to work harder for less compelling rewards is not a great incentive…

  122. @PF, George is talking about hotness which is primarily determined by youth, not sexual experience like you seem to be talking about. Both of you are right, just talking about different things. I wouldn’t get too defensive or insecure about guys like George, as Lover Girl, Bulma and various other women in their thirties and beyond still get plenty of attention, even though it might not be from high status millionaires like him.

    @George/Wolf, would you mind posting some pictures or giving examples via famous actresses/models. I’m curious as to what your ratings are, seeing as you make such a big deal about it.

  123. you’ll settle it when BD lets us see one or two of the women he’s dating

    Parade’s oddball disagree-just-to-disagree-because-it’s-fun comments throughout this thread, and Wolf’s cynical everything-sucks comments, demonstrate why showing pics of these women would not change the minds of anyone who’s already made up their mind about this.

    What would instead happen is the nitpickers and negative guys would complain about things like “they’re using angles to make themselves look better” or “she wouldn’t look that good if she wasn’t wearing makeup,” and similar. Then the conversation would devolve into so-and-so’s boobs are too big/small, hips are too/big small, eyes are too big/small, this one isn’t a 10 she’s an 8, this one isn’t a 7 she’s a 9, etc.

    These arguments are so childish and stupid its one of the reasons I stopped posting on PUA forums, where this kind of nitpicking-to-death-for-no-reason is commonplace.

    If some people seriously want to think that I date average-cute girls who only I think are hot, they’re welcome to think that. If they want to think that hot girls are impossible to get via online dating, they’re welcome to think that too. (Though it’s very true the the girls on the SDD sites are much hotter than on standard sites.)

    While I (a corporate girl) generally like the idea of scheduling sex just to make sure it happens, I can assure you that a woman’s willingness to have sex with you is dependent on many factors, incl. how she perceives your motivations to have sex with her

    No. It has more to do with the age of the relationship and her mood that day than anything else.

    I think he mentioned that two of them were part of his sugar daddy experiments, so maybe they received money from him at some point(?), but as I said, all of them were very attractive, not just two of them.

    If you are who I think you are, then you’re correct. Two of those women I had met on a sugar daddy site and one of them had received money from me at some point as part of that experiment (the other had not). All the rest of the girls you saw were from normal Portland dating sites (where Wolf says hot women don’t exist) using my usual system. Though, as always, I had to sift through a lot of uglies to get to those women. That’s part of the work involved with online dating.

    As I said above, to be fair to Wolf, since he’s in the unique position of being in the upper 1% of men looking only for the upper 1% of women, it’s possible he wouldn’t think these women are as hot as you do. Knowing him, he’d probably look for (and find) some tiny flaw somewhere on their face or bodies that would disqualify them from being “hot,” at least to him.

    As is so often the case, we all look at this from very different places, and it often skews our perceptions.

    Congrats, the women in their 30s are the toughest by far to crack.

    They are. Though women in their 40s are tough too. Once they get over 50 they start calming down the ASD again… but then they’re over 50. 🙂

    I think some of the small blow back you’ve gotten in these comments is because they think OLTR means you’ve gone soft and the blog will change.

    Reading through the comments, I actually think its the opposite. I think there’s some jealousy for what I’ve got, and we’re dealing with a little “crabs in a barrel” dynamic. That’s just my guess; I could be wrong. I expected negative comments here, but for very different reasons than the ones in this thread.

    This blog is always interesting!

    It’s the latter. When I said I’d “demand” she sleep with other men, I meant that that is my criteria for not nexting her. I’d prefer to talk with her about it in order to give her a chance to make the decision on her own, and then next her or not based on her decision.

    Okay, that sounds a lot better.

    You really need to work on calming the emotions and improving your communication dude, especially if you’re going to start your own blog.

    Um….dude, Milo is NOT alt right!

    Really? Did you actually read what you just said?

    You’re off the deep end with the political stuff. Let’s agree to disagree.

    I explained in my last reply to you why I support Trump.He represents an existential threat to political correctness and left wing authoritarianism.

    Yet you hate the alt-right. Right.

    Remember what I said about your communication?

    I guess I’m a hybrid then.

    Yup.

    As BD stated throughout the blog (and 2.0 book I think, one of the best books ever btw) he has enjoyed women of all ages and the main reason his FB’s are in the 18-29 range (same here) is because of 30+ ASD B.S. and attitude/drama 30+ women usually give you. NOT because they aren’t that attractive anymore. Big difference.

    Precisely. Like you, I have always thought women over 30 (and over 40!) were hot as fuck, even back when I was a teenager lusting over my high school teachers, and that’s never changed.

    The manosphere messaging of women suddenly turning gross the instant they hit 30 is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. My cock doesn’t give a fuck about how well a woman’s ovaries work. How fucking stupid! All it wants is a hot face, long hair, and a trim and curvy body, and some nice ass/titties. Done.

    Of course younger women are hot too. But if you program yourself to only want women under age 25 for the rest of your life, you’re going to have massive problems when you climb over age 35 and attempt to pair-bond for the long term later in life (which most Alphas will eventually do), since all women get older.

    I love the manosphere but it’s sad to see the way it sets up so many men for failure later in life.

    I don’t think we should get too technical with this because each woman is an individual.  I think a prime age range could have varying degrees.

    Wolf is focused less on hotness and the physical attraction a man feels; he’s more focused on perfection and SMV, which is society’s opinion of a woman’s value based on statistical factors (one of which is age). As I’ve said, SMV is completely irrelevant to what a man’s cock desires or enjoys. According to SMV, Sofia Vergara should be one of the most undesirable women in the world, when in fact she’s one of the hottest.

    He’s not wrong per se; he’s just coming at this from a very different place than most of the rest of us.

  124.  You’re also never going to get anywhere if you straight up ask them “let’s have sex”.

    I do that all the time. With two straightforward people it works. Not everyone is like that of course. For example, for me sex relieves stress. It’s the first thing I want to do when I get back from work. Dinner and everything else can wait. My equally busy man prefers to eat first. Another guy I dated in the not-so-distant past needed to cook and have dinner, then watch the news, then a movie, then he was ready to jump me (by which point I had usually given up and had to reignite myself somehow). We didn’t last long – he dumped me because I wanted a serious relationship – not necessarily monogamy, I can handle it both ways as long as I have sex  1-2x week as the bare minimum – and he didn’t, or not with me.

    Just seems like a lady that prefers monogamous relationships and is so concerned w catching new STD would then be willing to put out more than 1 x per week and/or schedule the sex in if she didn’t want me getting it elsewhere lol.

    @ CurtsNOKC

    Agreed. But if she prefers monogamous relationships, why would she be sleeping with you at all?? Temporary fix?

    …her mood that day than anything else.
    @BD
    How she feels about you at the moment is a major factor that influences her mood.

  125. @K

    Well, this particular lady (34) is a lil confused is why lol.

    Allow me to explain.  As I began dating her the following was discovered….

    1) She claimed she was a “Serial Monogamist” and was kinda proud of it

    2) I helped her determine that her average Mong relationship lasted about 6 months on average

    3) She claimed she still had feelings for “Mr On/Off, whom she was NEVER monogamist with and has seen known him for 5 years

    4) She admitted that she saw him in between these other Mong guys, which means she had to break up with them first lol

    5) The only other guy she still talks to was an FB

    6) ALL of her past Mong relationships BF she never talks to any longer

    So, when she asked me to be Mong I am like, looking at your brief history, why in the fuck would I do that?  I told her if I wanted to see you and have sex with you for a long time, that would be suicide.

    She didn’t know how to respond or handle my questions and it frustrated her greatly.  Cuz I guess someone (me) finally helped her see how stupid the whole Monogamous game is and she had never realized she did this herself.

    So, her frustration with me and the whole fact I won’t agree to be Mong kinda baffles her or perplexes her I think.  Drives her nuts basically.  But I think she is coming around to understand why I do it.  Almost like she knows I am right and smart for not doing it and deep down knows how stupid the whole mong thing is.

    I don’t just like to schedule “sex” but more a “date time” or “intimacy time” JUST LIKE WE DID BEFORE I MOVED IN WITH HER.  I am a Cancer and we love our cuddle time too.  One thing I have learned from Online dating is that there seems to be 2 kinds of people – Planners & Anti-Planners.

    These 2 do not mix in my book and is a instant red flag to me.  I would rather other guys mess w/ the ditzy anti-planner types and there is probably nothing more of a turn off than someone that abuses my time.

    It seems that when a guy moves in with a lady, she usually attempts to Monopolize a guys time while at the same time reducing sex.  We were scheduling dates and time together while dating and now I move in and we can’t keep scheduling it?  Huh??  Why not?  Maybe scheduling time alone should be MORE IMPORTANT now that we live together?

    What this leads to is similar to above and can be counter intuitive – meaning the man logic is if I move in w/ her we can have sex all the time!  However, it is the opposite will occur in reality.

    We are at the 6 month mark and non-mong and all kinds of drama is starting with this lady (as predicted right on time lmao) so we will see if I can pull this off or not?   She tries so hard to overcome her social programming but keeps getting pulled back at times.

    It does help that I nicknamed her “Ms. On/Off” and tease her about how I wanna be her 1st to be her only “Mr On” forever =)    I will ask her sometimes, “wait….am I in the off position now or what…”

    Drives her fucking nuts lol

    For Xmas, I am getting her a Light Switch too =))

  126. I guess BD hasn’t introduced you to the concept of “female solipsism”.

    How a woman perceives her own desire level has very little to do with men’s desire for her, and her own perception of how “good to go” she is has very little bearing on how a man will experience dating her, relative to younger women.

    Very true, but if we gave in and accepted this fact, then how would us thirties girls be able to sleep at night??? Survival tactic, ne? *puts both hands over her ears and starts singing, La, la, la, la, la!*  Sorry, either I couldn’t hear what you said or I am in denial. (FYI, I’m not mad, just trying to be funny)

  127. @Bulma78  Don’t worry, I got the joke. 😉

    BD’s blog seems to be an odd place to come to be in denial about it though… 😉

    I think the best survival tactic for women in their 30s and 40s who want relationships with men they actually like would be to become aware when they are shooting themselves in the foot by letting their relationship anxiety drive him off.

    I have known many 30s/40s women over the last couple years I  might still be happily with if they hadn’t felt compelled to act out their “high standards”.

    We can accept that you aren’t 20 yr olds anymore if you aren’t also still acting like you are (or even moreso!).

  128. Parade’s oddball disagree-just-to-disagree-because-it’s-fun comments throughout this thread

    Maybe I’ll agree with you here…or maybe not 😛

    I’m actually not disagreeing in my ‘women aren’t as prevalent as you make it seem’ comment. Quite simply there’s an impression that it’s possible to regularly lay hot (9-10’s) from online game.

    Yes it’s possible to do, and if you keep them around like you do and have been doing it as long as you have you’ll build up a solid base, but no, someone just starting out isn’t going to be able to get 9-10’s with any regularity from online game.

    I mostly agree with you, I just think that people forget where you’re coming from. It’s a long process to get to the levels of success you have, not something you can do overnight (or even in 6 months).

    It’s entirely possible to regularly lay 4-7’s from online game only starting from basically 0 within 6 months in any decently sized US city. For whatever your personal definition of rating is. Unless it’s extremely non-standard (if, say, 300lbs makes a chick a 10 in your eyes you can build a rotation of them in days/weeks)

    Additionally, some of the other commenters on the ‘9’s are hard’ side of things might be forgetting that you don’t require a new 9 every week. If you can find two 9’s online per year, after 5 years you’ll have 2-5 9’s(minimum) on rotation if you manage everything else correctly.

    I fully believe that you’re fucking chicks that you find attractive. They’re not my preference so I’d probably rate them a ‘not interested, but probably a 7 to most people’ (like Jessica six from earlier in the thread), but I don’t think you’re going after traditionally unattractive women. That said, if you were dropped in a random US city I don’t think you’d have a stable set of 9’s on rotation within a year unless it was one where the ratio was favorable. A set of 5-9’s, sure (where 5 is ‘fuckable but only if she makes it trivially easy’)

  129. I do that all the time. With two straightforward people it works.

    I bet it works way more on guys than vice versa.

    According to SMV, Sofia Vergara should be one of the most undesirable women in the world, when in fact she’s one of the hottest.

    100% this.

    I think Rollo and some of the other guys have people thinking low SMV means not attractive. I live in Seattle and go to Portland and Vancouver BC frequently and I always meet or see a few very attractive women in my 30s almost every time I’m out there, they’re on tinder, bumble, PoF, OKC, out on the streets and bars….

    Hot women in their 30s take care of themselves, a hot 27 year old may in fact not be hot when she turns 33 or 34, she may get comfortable in a marriage or long term relationship and let herself go, she could blow up after a pregnancy, you never know. With a hot mid 30s woman, you know damn well she’s taking care of herself and isn’t going to let herself go in a relationship *which would end in a hard next anyways*

    SMV is Market Value…that isn’t a hotness scale or anything. Just because a stock is low, doesnt mean you shouldn’t buy it. Sure, a hot 25 year old has a higher market value, more people have a chance to fuck her, but that doesn’t mean she’s hotter than a hot 35 year old, just that the 35 year old is in more of a repressed market, most men her age are married, the ones that aren’t may not be as good looking, so she doesn’t have as wide of a choice in available men.

    Right now I can’t really say shit because I’ve been outside the game for quite a few years, but my preference is a couple of 20 year old fbs, and an OLTR in her 30s, because I’m in my 30s as well, and I just feel I have more in common with someone close to my age, and I think that at that age there’s just less drama.

    My only problem is I basically don’t have a career path so women in their 30s are even tougher to crack.

    Tl;Dr
    There are so many beautiful women in the world and it seems silly to automatically disqualify based on an age

  130. There are so many beautiful women in the world and it seems silly to automatically disqualify based on an age

    Well said! It’s refreshing to hear there are BD bloggers out there who are open to women who are no longer in their 20’s.  Really, age is just a number, if a women looks hot, who cares! There are so many women in their 30’s that look like they are in their 20’s anyway.

  131. Very true, but if we gave in and accepted this fact, then how would us thirties girls be able to sleep at night?

    @Bulma: the same way people in general make peace with age-related limitations. It isn’t the end of the world to know that the best you can possibly look at 40 is somewhat less than the best you can look at 22.
    There are incredibly risky things I used to do when I was 17-18 which today, at just 25, I wouldn’t dare to do unless I spent hours just to psyche myself up. Today I’m much stronger than I was at 18 thanks to better training and nutrition, but there are ways in which my teenage self would view me as pussy. The peak of androgens at 17 can make you that crazy and risk-taking, and when it wears off you can’t seem to understand where all the hotheadedness went. That doesn’t mean I’m hard on myself for being “older and less daring”, and I still intend to do slightly safer stuff (like rock climbing…) when I get the chance; point is, age can start making you lose certain things very early in life, and denial isn’t necessary to cope with that: you just acknowledge and adapt. And who knows, maybe I’ll actually do the really risky stuff again some day.

  132. There are so many women in their 30’s that look like they are in their 20’s anyway.

    That. And more so now than ever before.

  133. There are so many women in their 30’s that look like they are in their 20’s anyway.

    And God bless every last one of them for taking care of themselves

  134. @Duke

    @George/Wolf, would you mind posting some pictures or giving examples via famous actresses/models. I’m curious as to what your ratings are, seeing as you make such a big deal about it.

    Eh, I hate doing this.

    Ok, This is a bit off the top of my head, and some of these are old examples, I don’t really keep up with ‘hot celebs’ nowadays so you’ll have to rewind the clock to when some of these girls were at their peak.

    If you’re going to read this rating list at least read my disclaimer IN FULL at the bottom before replying and starting to nitpick so you can see where I’m coming from.

    10’s:

    – Emily Ratajkowski

    – Candice Swanepoel

    – Megan Fox

    – Miranda Kerr

    9-9.5’s:

    – Olivia Wilde

    – Jessica Alba

    – Margot Robbie

    8-8.5’s:

    – Emmanuelle Chriqui

    – Jennifer Love Hewitt

    – Katy Perry

    7-7.5’s:

    – Emma Watson

    – Kristen Stewart

    – Zooey Deschanel

    I guess you’re going to get guys that will rate these girls +/- up to about 2 points based on personal preference. So for me online, It’s fairly easy to get girls in that 7 range, in NYC for example you can invite them straight to your apartment off tinder, no dates required, here I have to actually take them out.

    As soon as you get to 8’s the time it takes increases exponentially and so does the competition, 9’s start to get extremely difficult for me and I mostly just get stuffed around (unless I’m using money). 10’s, if you can even find them, are almost impossible without serious money.

    If you look at that list and think, ‘meh, they are all 7’s at best to me, I prefer much curvier women’ or whatever, then lucky you, that’s why you have a much easier time of it. If what you find super attractive most other guys think ‘meh’, then your competition is massively reduced. For guys like myself that are genuinely more attracted to girls that are ‘mainstream hot’ then we have to contend with insane competition and situations like a girl rocking up to a date after having been hit on by 2 seperate guys in the street on her walk there…

    Even if most of these guys are secretly more attracted to ‘curvier’ women or whatever and only want these girls on their arms as trophies, it doesn’t matter, they are still out there gaming these women harder, inflating there ego’s more, offering them money/gifts etc. so they can walk around with that trophy on their arm. So for a guy who is genuinely more attracted to these women it makes it really tough.

    I’ll concede that curvier women can ‘feel’ better in bed from a purely physical perspective, but they don’t invoke the same level of raw lust in me, whether that’s because I’ve been ‘brainwashed’ by society, I don’t know, but it’s how it is.

    So when it comes to OLTR‘s I can’t even imagine what it would take to have an OLTR with a girl in the 10 range, having a 9 as a side girl is enough of a headache. My OLTR wife is objectively a 7-7.5, but probably gets a bump to around an 8 for me because she’s exactly my personal type (petite, very slim, pretty, brunette), she always gets told she looks like Cristin Milioti for reference.

    In your personal life the whole rating thing doesn’t matter too much, if you get women that you are very attracted to and are happy, then great, doesn’t matter what other guys rate them. The thing is when you’re giving and selling dating advice, ratings (especially trying to come up with a fairly objective, standardized rating for girls as opposed to a more  subjective personal rating) become pretty important, because it gives you some idea of what is achievable realistically. Imagine, for example, taking dating advice from a guy with a fat fetish, always talking about all the ‘personal 10’s’ he fucks and selling that advice…

    Not saying that’s what’s happening here at all, but just saying that in my experience most guys selling dating advice either inflate their ratings or use a ‘personal preference’ rating system that skews peoples impressions of what’s achievable and what it actually takes to get and keep mainstream 9+’s.

  135. Okay, that sounds a lot better.

    You really need to work on calming the emotions and improving your communication dude, especially if you’re going to start your own blog.

    You know I usually communicate well. I’ve just been scatterbrained lately due to a few cases I’m working on that need to be resolved before the holidays.

    Really? Did you actually read what you just said?

    Yes. The question is, did you read the rest of the paragraph I wrote after that sentence where I explain why Milo isn’t alt right? Sometimes I get the impression that you only read the first sentence of a paragraph and respond, thus causing you to miss certain important clarifications. Milo is a self-admitted cultural libertarian. The culturally authoritarian alt right calls him a “race mixing kike faggot.” Not exactly flattering to someone who is supposedly one of their own, wouldn’t you say?

    Also, I’ve watched every single speech he has given on college campuses. Have you? I can say with great confidence that he is a cultural libertarian who hates both left wing and right wing cultural authoritarianism.

    You’re off the deep end with the political stuff. Let’s agree to disagree.

    Just make sure you read my explanations for why I think the way I do.

    Yet you hate the alt-right. Right.

    Remember what I said about your communication?

    Trump is against left wing authoritarianism (PC culture). So am I. Therefore, I support him. Yes, I’m also against right wing authoritarianism (alt right), but the left wing SJWs are a common enemy to both the alt right AND cultural libertarians, hence my support for Trump.

  136. woman are at their sexual peak when they are in their 30’s.  They actually say women in their 30s and early 40s are significantly more sexual than younger women.
    It’s been said that women ages 30 through 45 have been reported not only to having more sexual fantasies (and more intense sexual fantasies) than women ages 18 through 26 but also having more sex, period. And they are more willing than younger women to have casual sex, even one-night stands.

    That has definitely been my experience. The best, craziest, kinkiest stuff I’ve done and experienced is with 30/40+ by far (easier to find them in certain open minded circles and places let’s say). Little to no shame, very (sexually) confident, active participant (I fucking hate passivity), independent (in the true meaning of the word) and so on and so forth. Some 18-25 are up for it, but in my experience they usually have mental issues (BPD, etc.) that make them only qualified for FB, not MLTR (ask me how I know…). And all of this must be Universal, because I live in Europe.

    High five.

  137. @Lovergirl

     

    “I also am rolling my eyes because men, in general, do that- they SAY they want women who put out quickly but they won’t consider her serious relationship material and BD is doing the same exact thing even though he claimed he was different. He’s showing that he is just like every other guy and still falls for the madonna/whore split.”

     

    You know you’ve gotten under the skin of a “Red Pill” married guy when you question the foundations of his wife’s “love” for him, and he responds by accusing YOU of having a madonna/whore issue. Ask me how I know.

     

    Really though – I think you’re generally accurate although, and this may be a sore spot for you as a woman, NAMALT.

     

    I would probably never go out on a 3rd date with a woman if she hadn’t put out by the 2nd – and I likely wouldn’t even go on a 2nd if we didn’t fuck on the 1st (and that 1st date would be a simple ‘drinks’ arrangement, not dinner). If a woman is *trying* to activate a madonna/whore dynamic in me, it’s the ultimate turn-off. She is playing a game, and trying to obfuscate the extent of her own sexual desire. If we’ve met, and we’re out on a 1st ‘date’ for drinks, she knows that she wants to fuck me. Making me wait out of some goal-orientation (you might charitably call this ‘her pursuit of her own sexual strategy’) is going counter to my interests, and I will not waste my time with a deceiver.

     

    Since becoming game-aware, every LTR that I’ve had has started with sex happening almost immediately. I will not tolerate ASD. Which is why I have never been interested in the 33+ female demo for anything beyond a very casual FB arrangement.

     

    But yes – most men feel they’ve achieved some kinda ‘higher value’ relationship if the woman made them wait for it. I’d say they have a lower-value relationship and are more likely to be fucked over by that woman, who they’re now currently in a relationship with, who made them wait for it.

     

    I am not commenting/criticizing BD on this specifically though, because he’s talking about his O!LTR. I’m talking about my experience with (temporarily) monogamous LTRs and the LTRs of virtually everyone I see around me. So there are big differences in those dynamics.

     

    And yet, some dynamics remain the same – so I’d urge caution there, FWIW. And I say that because I’m kinda sorta in a nascent stage of a MLTR myself, at this moment in time, and I can see how a woman’s requests of you do not change just because there’s a giant “M” or “O” in front of “LTR” (read: explicit understanding that you are not committed/exclusive).

     

    To see BD and Pink Firefly disagree on whether or not ASD was ’employed’, and his attempt to ‘soften’ the stark disagreement that Parade simply had to delineate with actual quotes – we can all see right out in the open how even these 2 have competing sexual strategies and are not entirely on the same page. That’s life, relationships for ya – and it may be cynical, nihilistic or whatever but it’s also flat-out true.

  138. @Joe K

    Actually, my first live in OLTR since divorced was someone I had sex with first night.

    One of my rules is the Tanya Tucker song, “If It don’t come easy let it go”.

    I still see her to this day and feel their is a lot of truth to that song.

    🙂

  139. Whether I have a high SMV is really irrelevant to me. Yes, I was physically hotter at 20 than I am at 40. However, the quality of men I attract at 40 is ten times better because by this age I’ve gotten a lot better at weeding out the losers. The same men that would fuck me at 20 would still happily fuck me at 40. Whether I am a 7 or a 9 is irrelevant because it depends on who you are asking. Whoever said a woman my age can’t attract high status millionaires is wrong. One of the guys I am currently sleeping with is my age, a millionaire CEO and a former college football player. I’m sure he can and may very well be fucking younger women but it doesn’t affect whether or not he is attracted to me so I don’t care, lol.

    Actually, I have way more access to high status men at 40 than I did at 20. At 20 I was in college, surrounded by 20 something men who still hadn’t made it in life. At 40 I’m in a management position at a company that makes billions so I’m around a lot wealthier, more powerful men.

    For a woman getting older has lots of benefits because if we are remotely attractive men are still attracted to us. They aren’t near as picky in real life as they brag about being online.

  140. @Lovergirl

     

    Holy shit lady, are you ever hyper-sensitive about your age. To say “They aren’t near as picky in real life as they brag about being online” – has there ever been one single male commenter on this blog who said he wouldn’t fuck even just a moderately attractive 40 year old woman for a FWB-type arrangement? Of course not. You are deliberately mis-characterizing here, to make yourself feel better. Nobody doubts for a second that if you are in the top ~30% of attractiveness among 40 year old women, that you can get laid by good looking men with money. The vast majority of women, however, want a lot more than that – they want serial monogamy, the full AF/BB enchilada, and the status of being that former-college-football-player’s girlfriend or wife in a very publicly-acknowledged sense.

     

    If you, deep down, don’t want those things? You’re extremely unusual. Of course you’re going to paint yourself in a “Really, you guys, what I am describing actually makes me happy” kinda light. Only you know how you really feel about it, though.

  141. @Wolf

    If you look at that list and think, ‘meh, they are all 7’s at best to me, I prefer much curvier women’ or whatever, then lucky you, that’s why you have a much easier time of it.

    You read my mind. I think all those girls are pretty much sevens, although I operate on a would fuck or wouldn’t fuck basis (I think Roosh calls it the boner test). With respect to this model thing, I think you like the social proof aspect of hotness. You like that they are famous and highly sought after. Can’t say I blame you. You already have a girl next door type woman, so it stands to reason you would want a hotter side woman.

    I guess I know where you got your handle from and what movie you like, as well as how this fits in with your life. Cristin Milioti is your OLTR and you want your FBs to look like Margot Robbie. Lol

    @ Lover Girl, my apologies and I stand corrected for saying you can’t attract high status millionaires. Lol

  142. BD, can you write a fictional piece about how the Sexual market place and society would look if all males were Alphas 2.0? It’s pretty sad that today they are a rare breed.

  143. To see BD and Pink Firefly disagree on whether or not ASD was ’employed’

    We don’t disagree, though PF’s words may seem like it. I already explained it above; of course some ASD was employed, she’s over 33 and thus this was unavoidable, but not nearly to the degree Lovergirl was implying, and if PF did, she’d be long gone. But yes, PF is well aware we didn’t have sex on the first date. 🙂

    BD, can you write a fictional piece about how the Sexual market place and society would look if all males were Alphas 2.0?

    Haha, hell no. A) SMV is completely irrelevant to an individual man’s success with women, and B) some of my critics are terrified, and I mean terrified, that someday my stuff will go mainstream and Alpha 2.0s will be running rampant all over the place and destroy our culture by taking all the women and preventing all beta males from getting laid. Which will literally never happen. Far less than 10%, likely less than 5% of men in the world will ever choose to become Alpha 2.0, even if I was featured on national television every day. The emotional pressures to be a beta or Alpha 1.0 are just too strong.

  144. I’m going to circle back to the point I made way above that I think is very important, but got lost when Wolf’s outburst steered the conservation to the topic SMV. (SMV, as I’ve said many times, is one of the most irrelevant concepts to your game, long-term happiness, and success with women, and something the manosphere really over-focuses on, to the determinant of many of its readers. Just look at how much it upsets Wolf, who is a successful, quality Alpha and literally doesn’t need to be worried about it at all.)

    My point was this: Irrelevant of OLTR or whatever, if I say one one of the women I’m having sex with is someone most men would consider a 9 or 10, and the very first conclusion you jump to is that woman must obviously be the hottest woman in my life, then this says something about your outlook regarding women and abundance mentality.

    First of all, as Parade already indicted, um, I’m Blackdragon, a dating expert who has been doing this for almost 10 years of experience. Automatically assuming a subjective 9-10 is the hottest woman I’m having sex with is an odd assumption to make. I know that sounds arrogant (which I am) but let me finish my point, since this has to do more with you than it does me.

    Secondly, and much more importantly, you, yes you, the guy reading this right now, have the ability to have a super hot OLTR and a super hot FB on the side. There is no rule that says you’re only allowed one hot girl in your life. Stupid. Having a super hot OLTR and a super hot FB on the side (or even two) is a very doable goal and is not difficult, provided you put in the necessary time and effort.

    As I’ve said before, and as several here have pointed out, having only one hot girl in your entire sex life, even if you’re nonmonogamous, is very dangerous to your frame. This is true even if the super hot girl is a FB and your average girl is your OLTR.

    I’ve spoken with lots of guys whose OLTR is super hot but their FB(s) on the side are average or maybe slightly cute, and these guys almost always eventually lose their frame and their balls and go beta, or even de facto monogamous (yuck!). I’ve also spoken with a few guys whose OLTR is average, or even a little ugly, but their FB(s) on the side are super gorgeous, and these guys have a really tough time managing their relationship life, as well as their own inner conflict about remaining with their OLTR.

    You don’t want to be in either category.

    If you decide to go that route because of either laziness or scarcity mentality, you’d better be the most perfect, powerful, badass, hardworking Alpha on Earth, because that’s what’s going to be required. (I’d personally rather not work that hard in my relationship life.) Moreover, assuming that you can “only have one hot girl” is a horrible, debilitating, and factually inaccurate attitude to have. It’s flat out stupid.

    Given time and effort, you can design any type of lifestyle you want. Don’t ever think you can’t. You can.

  145. I love the fact that there are only 5% of men are Alpha 2!  I used to want to tell every guy I know about this stuff but now I just smile and hold my tongue.

    So not only do I keep my mouth shut with the ladies more now, I do as well with most guys unless it’s a close relative or friend that I know won’t matter.  It’s funny too cuz some of my friends I play ball with call me a player and wonder how I do it lol =)   I just play dumb….

    One time I was in the cell phone store getting a new phone and the guy (very handsome black guy) saw all of my texts/sexts/pics from my online dating game and looked at me funny and said, “damn man you a player holy shit man this gonna take hours to move over….”.

    You could tell he wanted some advise but felt strange asking a White guy but he wanted to be my friend after that lol.

    @BD

    I did have one question for you – have you ever had a FB at your house and another FB or OLTR show up at the same time?  Either on accident or on purpose? ( I am wanting to try this as a way to setup a threesome as well possibly but to also increase my frame. Plus it allows me to filter out chics cus if they come over without having to schedule anything, they can’t abuse my time or flake out).

    In the past, since I am naturally a Planner Dude, I have been very strict about them only coming over when I schedule something but was thinking about telling most of my FBs and less serious ones to just pop over anytime lmbo.  So, even though I am a Planner Dude there is something very nice and sexy and fun about having multiple chics pop over at any time lol.

    Maybe I am old fashioned but this is how it was done w/ dating around 1990-1994’s or so.  They would just come to my apartment and no cell phones or any of the BS. If I was setting in the living room on couch w/ Paula then Stacey would see her and I’d tell her that I would see her later and that would help my game.  Sometimes they would even talk and laugh about it and I had 2 chics in my apartment playing with my dog.  I was freaking 19 years old then but gosh I loved how simple life was back then…..organic and very natural.  So, I was thinking about trying to incorporate some of this pre-cell phone/facebook era into my Alpha 2 lifestyle a lil and wanted your take on this.  The pros/cons and if you have ever tried this?

    Thanks a million in advance….

  146. Do you mind elaborating on those emotional pressures? I also thought that it would be extraordinary if you created an online poly dating site that matched people up based on their drama tolerance level and their classification as alphas, betas, dominants, subs, independents etc. I completely agree with your compatibility assessments based on these.

  147. have you ever had a FB at your house and another FB or OLTR show up at the same time?

    Never.

    Either on accident

    That would be pretty hard to do by accident, unless I was literally meeting one girl right after the next on the same day, but if that happened it would be my fault, not theirs. Scheduling things that close together is poor time management.

    or on purpose?

    No, but if a woman ever did that on purpose it would be a hard nextable offense. I’ve said that before. A woman coming over to your house unannounced, when she knows you’re nonmono, is very serious business. Just imagine if you did that to her.

    I am wanting to try this as a way to setup a threesome as well possibly but to also increase my frame

    No. Don’t be a pussy or beat around the bush like that. If you want a threesome, man up and go for it.

    Do you mind elaborating on those emotional pressures?

    Obsolete Biological Wiring (OBW), as I describe in detail in my book. Our outdated masculine biology tells us, incorrectly, that sex and women are scarce commodities, who must either be pandered to so they don’t leave us or get mad at us (betas) or be owned, corralled, and tightly controlled so other men won’t touch them or steal them away (Alpha 1.0s).

    Alpha 2.0 is direct violation of OBW, which means the transition takes conscious mental effort. Most guys would rather just surrender to their OBW and suffer all the usual relationship problems instead.

    I also thought that it would be extraordinary if you created an online poly dating site that matched people up based on their drama tolerance level and their classification as alphas, betas, dominants, subs, independents etc.

    Way ahead of you:

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2014/12/04/fun-theory-perfect-online-dating-site/

  148. Blackdragon. I’m so happy that you’re finding true love. I live in London,England and your website saved me 18 months ago when my long term relationship ended.

  149. No, but if a woman ever did that on purpose it would be a hard nextable offense.

    Happened to me as I said in a previous post. I sent her away, rescheduled her for another day, and then told her explicitly that I was non-mono and that I had another chick over when she showed up. So far it seems fine, but she’s FB level and I’m definitely not going beyond that with her. If she does it again that’s a hard next.

    Luckily for me the girl I was with at the time was someone I’ve been with for a while and would start laughing hysterically at any implication I was mono (i.e. She knows I’m not and is fine with it and with knowing basic details)

  150. Congrats on the OLTR!  I have had one myself for the past 3.5 years, so you can add my name to the long term open relationship guy list.  I believe most people are freaking out about your new relationship change because you’re seriously considering getting legally married (under your own rules of course), though being in a OLTR should surprise no one.  This conflict and fear of you going soft may be due to repeated statements such as “It is always my advice that you NEVER get legally married.”  Personally, I’m a little relieved to hear it.  Congrats again.

     

    My question however is about your other relationships while being in a OLTR.  Why is it required that you disclose upfront that you’re in a OLTR to FB‘s if they’re simply FB‘s???  Especially if you don’t live together…  Is it a matter of ethics?  Or is it simply a drama management strategy?  So far 4 out of 5 of my FB‘s I have told up front, right on my profile or in person, and I must admit it makes me WAY more relaxed knowing they are cool with it already.

     

    Thanks!

  151. @Duke

    You read my mind. I think all those girls are pretty much sevens

    If you think Emma Watson and Candice Swanepoel are both rated the same at 7, then I don’t know what to tell you. Since you brought up Roosh though and the binary ‘would bang, won’t bang’ system then this is relevant to the current conversation:

    http://www.rooshv.com/the-unintended-consequences-of-pursuing-very-beautiful-women

    While he mentions that it’s much harder to sleep with women the hotter they are, and the difficulty increases exponentially, one thing he doesn’t say is that it’s also harder to KEEP a woman the hotter she is in an OLTR or LTR or whatever too.

    I guess I know where you got your handle from and what movie you like, as well as how this fits in with your life. Cristin Milioti is your OLTR and you want your FBs to look like Margot Robbie. Lol

    It’s definitely where I get my handle from lol, and for those that don’t know George St is the main street that runs through Sydney. Though I was with my OLTR for many years before the casting for the movie was done, so that was just a coincidence, but a funny one nonetheless.

    @BD

    SMV, as I’ve said many times, is one of the most irrelevant concepts to your game

    This is where we disagree, time and time again, and that’s fine. It makes sense that people that sell dating, pua or game advice would want to sweep the importance of SMV under the rug because it doesn’t help their business model. IMO SMV is the most important concept when it comes to dating, failing to understand it leads to mindsets like ‘banging a 10 is no different than banging a 7’ or ‘banging a 10 is easier than banging a 7’. Which I’ve seen posted here before, that is simply wrong.

    I suppose it might be correct if you think a 21yo VS model is a 7 and a curvy middle aged woman is a 10, because your ratings are ass up. The fact is a true 10 can create an instagram account, post a few photos and within weeks have thousands of followers, get offered modelling contracts etc. and get all sorts of crazy offers from millionaires/billionaires to fly them across the other side of the world to meet etc. Unless a girl can do that, she’s not a 10.

    Some girl that can post her photo on instagram and gets messages from multi-millionaires all over the world is going to be alot harder to sleep with than some girl who posts photos and gets a few friends and family liking her photos, that is because the formers SMV is WAY higher, and SMV is directly linked to a girls attractiveness. Those are the extremes, your everyday hot girl 8/10 sits somewhere in the middle, she won’t be getting messages from multi-millionaires, but she’ll have alot more offers than a 7, and so on.

    Understanding this is crucial to game, because it gives you some indication of what a girl will expect, and what it’s going to take to get and keep her based on her looks alone, obviously there is some variance, not all 8’s are the same, but it’s a fairly accurate indicator.

    if I say one one of the women I’m having sex with is someone most men would consider a 9 or 10, and the very first conclusion you jump to is that woman must obviously be the hottest woman in my life, then this says something about your outlook regarding women and abundance mentality

    Oh I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware you were using the Spinal Tap rating system which goes all the way up to 11. 😉 If a guy tells me that he’s having sex with a 10, then obviously I assume that every other girl he’s having sex with is either less attractive, or at most equally attractive, because the scale doesn’t go any higher than 10 lol

  152. I believe most people are freaking out about your new relationship change because you’re seriously considering getting legally married (under your own rules of course), though being in a OLTR should surprise no one.  This conflict and fear of you going soft may be due to repeated statements such as “It is always my advice that you NEVER get legally married.”  Personally, I’m a little relieved to hear it.  Congrats again.

    Guys need to be concerned if/when I actually do a particular thing, not that I might do a particular thing in the future, or that I might do a thing in the future in a way they may not like.

    In other words, if I turn into a pussy or a beta, guys can freak out then. Otherwise, they need to relax. I’m still me. And will remain me. Forever.

    Why is it required that you disclose upfront that you’re in a OLTR to FB’s if they’re simply FB’s???

    It is not required and I have never stated such. You can tell your FBs whatever you like. However, I don’t lie to women and I don’t lead women on, and I recommend that you don’t either. Not because of ethics, but because of drama. As I’ve said many times, if you lie to a woman you’re in a recurring relationship with (even if that’s just a FB), you are virtually 100% guaranteed for massive drama once she finds out, or even suspects, that you’ve been lying to her.

    I don’t do drama, therefore I don’t do lying. Lying to women is only for high-drama men.

    There’s also the phrase you used, “up front.” “Up front” can mean on your online dating profile, or over texts before you ever meet, or on the first date, or after the first date, or on the second date, or after you have sex once, or maybe even twice. “Up front” can mean whatever you want it to mean, based on your relationship status, the woman involved, and the particular scenario.

    Especially if you don’t live together…  Is it a matter of ethics?  Or is it simply a drama management strategy?

    Drama management.

    I never give advice based on ethics or morals, since I consider those to be highly personal and individualized, as I talk about in my book.

    So far 4 out of 5 of my FB’s I have told up front, right on my profile or in person, and I must admit it makes me WAY more relaxed knowing they are cool with it already.

    Excellent job and I agree!

    All of my FBs know I have a girlfriend, and don’t care. Moreover, all of them knew this the instant my decision was made to upgrade Pink Firefly to OLTR. I didn’t wait to tell any of them.

    As a matter of fact, a little while back an ex-MLTR contacted me and wanted to come back into my life, and I immediately told her that I had a girlfriend now, and if she wanted to hang with me it would be okay, but she would have to be a friend with benefits and that’s it. She understood, but didn’t like that and decided to not see me. Cool with me, because a woman who doesn’t hang out with me can’t give me drama. (This is one of the reasons why, now that I have an official OLTR, I vastly prefer FBs who already have boyfriends. I have found that it’s much, much less work that way.)

    Honesty is always the best policy if you want a low-drama life.

  153. Blackdragon,
    Not enough time to go into detail, but it’s entirely possibly your situation with Pink Firefly could work out for the long run. I’m 51, and got divorced 10 years ago – rebounded from chump to alpha with a vengeance and vow of “Never Again! (being treated as beta)”. I probably cover 65%-ish of the stuff you espouse though I had fewer resources then (Leykis, etc).

    Had a number of great lady friends, most of them FB, and then I met one that 2 years ago that eventually became my wife (I imposed a 5-year minimum wait until the topic could even be addressed) after going through a clearly defined progression (I didn’t stop dating others until second year with her, didn’t live together until fourth year, etc). We have a D/s component to our relationship, with clearly defined roles and expectations, and lots of communication. Basically lots of things that you’ve identified, and a rule about no mind reading can ever be expected.

    A few key things that make it work for us. #1 – Knowing yourself as a Man, and being a Alpha Male with his own mission (a journey to which a woman is welcome to come along with) – never softening that. #2 – Being each others TYPE, as you well know. She is exactly that type that was imprinted on me when I was young… and vice versa with my being her type. Shocking how much that keep the brain chemicals going after many years. The NRE has not 100% worn off after nearly a decade, and the attraction still manifests itself organically. #3 – We’re both professionals and could pay our own way, and no kids (we’re fixed), though we have priors of about same age, so no conflict over parent-time stuff. Still having wanted/driven sex 5x+ weekly. #4 No Drama allowed – she’s always known from day #1 that I would walk away without question if that happened, and that I meant it.

    No regrets, and a life 100x better than my first marriage. There ARE compromises and limits and tradeoffs to my marriage, as there are in any path taken. I won’t pretend otherwise. As you know, you just make sure they are on your own terms and choices as much as practically possible. My description above barely scratches the surface of the whole situation – it’s work to make it work, but the kind of work you already do every day as part of who you are.

  154. BD, the FB from the SDD site that you were initially paying… how did you convert her to an unpaid relationship? Did you basically just say, I’m not paying anymore it’s up to you if you want to stay?

  155. You’re absolutely right. Most of us are living on autopilot. It takes a very conscious effort to be aware of our thoughts and emotions and be able to fully control our actions. I love your Fun with Theory pieces BTW. Thanks for sharing your art and experiences. You rock!

  156. Just curious about something. If I still wanna have sex with my OLTR or see her long-term still, is it possible or feasible to go from Exclusive live in OLTR to transition her to non-exclusive live in OLTR if/when drama begins?

    Go backwards on the monogamous deal but still live with them? If they are ok with this of course.

    So, the choices are move out or become non-exclusive. Which option most increases a man’s Alpha 2 frame w someone and the odds of still having sex w her.

  157. Just curious about something. If I still wanna have sex with my OLTR or see her long-term still, is it possible or feasible to go from Exclusive live in OLTR to transition her to non-exclusive live in OLTR if/when drama begins?

    Go backwards on the monogamous deal but still live with them?

    What are you talking about? The “O” in OLTR stands for “open,” which means “non-exclusive.” If you’re exclusive with her, you’re NOT in an OLTR.

    And what do you mean by “go backwards” on the monogamous deal? Monogamy is backwards. Non-monogamy is moving forward.

    So, the choices are move out or become non-exclusive. Which option most increases a man’s Alpha 2 frame w someone and the odds of still having sex w her.

    You can’t be an alpha 2 AND monogamous. Your only choices are – live together and be non-exclusive or live separately and be non-exclusive.

  158. it’s entirely possibly your situation with Pink Firefly could work out for the long run

    Because I’m a nerd, I’ve already determined and written out the odds of Pink Firefly and I moving in together, and then lasting 4 years beyond that, and then lasting 10 years. I’ve already shared them with her, and I’ll talk more about those the next time I post about this relationship, probably when we actually move in together.

    The summary is that I have no idea what our odds are of being together “forever” (certainly far less than 100%), but our odds of staying together for a very long time once we move in together are very good (well past 60%). More on this soon.

    A few key things that make it work for us. #1 – Knowing yourself as a Man, and being a Alpha Male with his own mission (a journey to which a woman is welcome to come along with) – never softening that. #2 – Being each others TYPE, as you well know. She is exactly that type that was imprinted on me when I was young… and vice versa with my being her type. Shocking how much that keep the brain chemicals going after many years. The NRE has not 100% worn off after nearly a decade, and the attraction still manifests itself organically. #3 – We’re both professionals and could pay our own way, and no kids (we’re fixed), though we have priors of about same age, so no conflict over parent-time stuff. Still having wanted/driven sex 5x+ weekly. #4 No Drama allowed – she’s always known from day #1 that I would walk away without question if that happened, and that I meant it.

    I agree with all four of your items, though none of these guarantee a life-long future marriage. They can help the odds a little, and increase happiness during the marriage, but as I’ve said many times, there is no set of techniques guaranteed to create a forever marriage. If there were, the real lifetime divorce rate would be around 5%-10% instead of 70%.

    No regrets, and a life 100x better than my first marriage.

    I believe you. Being a pair-bonded, self-aware Alpha in a properly structured relationship is far happier than being a pair-bonded beta in a delusional, societally structured relationship. No contest.

    BD, the FB from the SDD site that you were initially paying… how did you convert her to an unpaid relationship? Did you basically just say, I’m not paying anymore it’s up to you if you want to stay?

    Long, complicated answer and way too off-topic for this post. Ask me again next time I talk about sugar daddy game. As a general point, the type of sugar daddy game where you convince women to have sex with you for zero money is an advanced level of game, and even if you do everything right it’s a reasonably big hassle. Both normal online dating and “pay them” sugar daddy game are both less time consuming and easier.

    If I still wanna have sex with my OLTR or see her long-term still, is it possible or feasible to go from Exclusive live in OLTR to transition her to non-exclusive live in OLTR if/when drama begins?

    As Jack already indicated, your question makes no sense.

    If you are currently in a live-in monogamous relationship, you don’t have an OLTR. If you wish to convert it to a nonmono one, you need to get this book right now, since it tells you step-by-step exactly how to do that.

    And what do you mean by “go backwards” on the monogamous deal? Monogamy is backwards. Non-monogamy is moving forward.

    Exactly. Societal Programming teaches people to view this entire thing completely ass backwards.

    Long-term monogamy is an adolescent level of thinking. “We’ll never leave each other and never cheat on each other, because we’re so in love!” That’s how 15 year-olds think, you fucking idiots.

    Actual mental adults either never long-term pair-bond, or only long-term pair-bond when they’re both allowed to get a little on the side, and a few other accommodations are made for normal human behavior. No other long-term system of pair-bonding works.

  159. It’s been a long time since I’ve read or posted anything here BD. I was really happy to see about you and PF .. if anyone appears to have a good grip on things of this nature it’s you..just because you’re so honest about everything. I wish you both a lot of happiness. Cheryl

  160. Big fan of UM and I follow your blog regularly – never had posted on here.

    I’m only 28, so I don’t see the point in having anything more than MLTRs and FBs at my age. But in the future (Much later after I accomplish a good portion of my goals) I do want to have at least one kid.

    How do you manage having women over while your daughter is living with you? Is that awkward or create drama if she hears sex noises or if you have an FB over that she doesn’t like?  That might be for another post or too personal, but just wondering if you could comment on the management of that situation.

  161. I wish you both a lot of happiness.

    Thank you Cheryl.

    I’m only 28, so I don’t see the point in having anything more than MLTRs and FBs at my age.

    You’re correct. Don’t worry about an OLTR at age 28. Focus on your dreams and goals instead.

    But in the future (Much later after I accomplish a good portion of my goals) I do want to have at least one kid.

    Perfect. That’s the way to do it.

    How do you manage having women over while your daughter is living with you?

    My daughter is older; it’s not like she’s a little girl. My requirement for when she moved in with me was that she had a driver’s license and her own car. My other requirement is that she had to understand that a few nights a week she would have to be gone for a few hours, sometimes with only a few hours notice. (And yes, she knew why.)

    It was a little awkward at times, but it all worked out, and she’s never seen any of my FBs since moving in.

    Today, she doesn’t have to leave if Pink Firefly is over, because your kids are allowed to spend time with your OLTR (they are not allowed with MLTRs or FBs). Even then, often my daughter spends the weekends at her mom’s house, which is usually when PF is over.

    Is that awkward or create drama if she hears sex noises or if you have an FB over that she doesn’t like?

    She’s never been home when an FB was at my house, by design. It’s not an issue of hearing noises. It’s an issue of your kids seeing you with a never ending parade of women at your house. Not good parenting, particularly when your kids are little.

    To be fair, Indie has indeed “heard sounds” from me and Pink Firefly more than once, and yeah, she’s complained about it. That’s different and I don’t care, because that’s my girlfriend. PF may be living with Indie and I soon so if she doesn’t like it, tough shit.

  162. Thank you for all the answers, that clears it all up – wasn’t expecting that much detail. Looking forward to reading Sampson and the Wizard!

  163. Actual mental adults either never long-term pair-bond, or only long-term pair-bond when they’re both allowed to get a little on the side, and a few other accommodations are made for normal human behavior. No other long-term system of pair-bonding works.

     

    I should have mentioned this in describing my current marriage; it almost goes without saying here, but shocks most everyone else.   I mentioned that my relationship with my (now) wife has a D/s component.  When our relationship started, along with the power exchange aspect, I informed (to paraphrase) her that I retain the right to have FBs and I’ve kept that to date.  She understood and accepted from the word go, though she does not want the same option for herself*.  When we finally married a couple people noticed our vows reflected this difference.

    I’ve not yet felt the need to have sex with someone else (serious: it’s not an excuse) – I’ve been very satisfied with how life with her has been, not to mention that almost all of my free time the last couple years had been devoted to a big project which has the potential to payoff $hugely$ in the next year.

    That said, I don’t hold back in the slightest when it comes to looking at other women (not in a crass way of course), flirting shamelessly and practicing game with some of them, or having close relationships that includes spending time with women who have ‘expressed interest’, and I make no effort to hide any of that her from that.  In fact I keep her fully informed.  I remind her that it’s nothing she didn’t know getting into the relationship with me and point out that because she’s holding up her promises and keeps me quite happy, I’m haven’t felt any need to.   That fuels her to keep it up and not let our relationship become ‘typical’ or go on auto-pilot.

    Will it go all the way to death do us part?  I don’t know.. and I have refused since day 1 to say that it will, because you can’t promise the future like that.  I give it about a 70% chance though.

    That said, I wasted too many good years to get to this point (like the ones when I had two good knees). Your blog and books are among the very best out there, and I’ve had friends thank me for showing this blog to them. If this was available to me when I was much younger – such a different and better life I would have. Topic for another day I guess.

    *if that ever changes, I’m not going to freak out.  One of our prime tenets, frequently discussed, is that either our relationship should be getting both our needs well met, or we shouldn’t be doing it.

  164. @Anubis: IMO you’re on a slippery slope and should start getting some on the side asap. It is way, way less important to “flirt”, “practice game” or “keep her informed” than to actually have sex on the side. This is the kind of process that creeps up on you – de facto monogamy, betaization – and is very easy to rationalize (been busy, been focused on a project). I’m not saying you’re being insincere, I’m just saying you should start fucking other women asap regardless of whether you’re 100% aching for it or not, otherwise – repeating myself – it’s gonna creep up on you and you’ll look back one day and realize you’re well on your way to pussywhipped. Two years if I understand your comment ? Dude, stop this whole “ain’t afraid to flirt in front of my girl and keep her informed” shit and actually stick it to another girl. If your sex drive is low (meaning no offense) then I understand, but if it’s anywhere near average you need to start doing this.

  165. @wolfofgeorgestreet

     

    did you actually put kristin stewart and emma watson on the same scale? Are you retarded? Clearly you dont have good taste. Kristin stewart is a solid 5 in my book and about as average as they come. I dont know you but I doubt you have ever been with anyone that looks as good as emma watson. Also, all you men are forgetting about Sofia Vergara- whos is 44 years old and looks better than 90% of most 25 year olds. Pink firefly is right that is a woman takes good care of herself and is attractive, that is the most important thing- as far as looks go anyway. SMH

  166.  
    Would you mind going into a little more detail about how you would have gone about downgrading an MLTR if you had had one at the time?  When you originally have “the talk” with a new MLTR you tell them that you’ll never be monogamous and assuming they’re cool with that, I can imagine their confusion when you later downgrade them in order to be “monogamous-ish” with another woman (the OLTR).  You’re blissfully going along with an MLTR, seeing her once a week, and she knows and accepts that you’re seeing other people.  Then BAM you essentially break up (attempt to downgrade) with her because you now have a “girlfriend”.  I’m a loyal reader of your blog and have purchased your books and so far everything you’ve said has made 100% logical sense to me but I have to be honest:  I would feel conned and pissed if that were done to me.  What am I missing here?

  167. Would you mind going into a little more detail about how you would have gone about downgrading an MLTR if you had had one at the time?  When you originally have “the talk” with a new MLTR you tell them that you’ll never be monogamous and assuming they’re cool with that, I can imagine their confusion when you later downgrade them in order to be “monogamous-ish” with another woman (the OLTR).

    You just said it. During The Talk I say that I’ll never be monogamous. That’s it. I never make any promises about our future relationship, or our future getting serious, or that we’re boyfriend and girlfriend (because we aren’t), or anything like that. The Talk is just about monogamy, and that I like spending time with you. That’s all. There’s nothing else.

    Could some women read more into that? Of course; women read more into the very specific words men say all the time, but that’s outside of our control. All we can do as men is be 100% honest, not imply anything that doesn’t exist, and remain congruent with our behaviors. If a woman still assumes more than this, then that’s her problem.

    As I said in the above article, there are two different Talks. The Talk, for MLTRs, and The OLTR Talk, for your OLTR. During the OLTR Talk, that is where you talk about a future together, being a boyfriend and girlfriend, being serious, building a future, and all that other lovey stuff. The normal (MLTR) Talk is just about monogamy, not about a more serious relationship.

  168. I have given a lots of thought in regards of marriage. I have become to position that I will not marry ever (never been to), though I live in Eastern Europe, where at the moment laws in regard of marriage are easy for men compared to US or UK. But I think that this situation might not last for too long.

    So lately I have thought that alternatively I could make sure there is cohabitation agreement signed and I would entertain the idea of having non-official wedding ritual. Like church wedding only. Or even some simple non-formal wedding ritual on some exotic beach in foreign country. So we would be married in the eyes of each-other, but not for government.

    Though this must be covered in cohabitation agreement so in later years when we split up, the opposing lawyer can’t twist it like it is the same as official marriage.

    And there is secondary psychological benefit as wedding is HUGE “compiliance” surge from spouse and will create big “attraction drop” for pride in the long run, after the honeymoon “satisfaction” period is ower. Having non-offical wedding in purpose of easy splitup, which must be covered in “the talk”, will hopefully lessen the attraction drop somewhat.

    Would you consider something similar?

     

  169. I have become to position that I will not marry ever (never been to), though I live in Eastern Europe, where at the moment laws in regard of marriage are easy for men compared to US or UK. But I think that this situation might not last for too long.

    Yes, most of Eastern Europe doesn’t have alimony laws. But as always, the entire planet is slowly moving to the political left, so yes, its only a matter of time before Eastern Europe becomes Western Europe (barring the complete collapse of Europe that is).

    Would you consider something similar?

    Sure. There are about four different ways you can get married, and that’s one of them.

  170. I’m LTTP but super happy to hear about this, congrats you two. I’d love to hear more after you’ve been living together for a while, especially about any unforeseen circumstances and how you guys ended up dealing with them.

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