Commenter MoChnk recently asked a complicated question:

How long does it take until you say to a woman “I love you”? Do you always wait until she says it first? What if she falls in love with you and says it but you don’t love her? Do you just smile and don’t answer? How do you handle such situations?

This “I love you” stuff is one of the most complicated issues for men. I’ve had to deal with it myself, including recently. Few things in life are this wonderful and dangerous at the same time.

The good news is that being in love with a woman is a wonderful thing that will make you very happy. It can connect you with someone in ways that border on spiritual. Happiness is the most important thing in life, and love (which don’t forget is simply a chemical reaction in your brain conducive to pair bonding) is one of the key components of happiness.

The bad news, and there’s a lot of it, is that for most men, love equals oneitis. Oneitis is every bit as bad as love is good. Loving a woman is wonderful, but getting needy for that woman by making her a bunch of promises and compromises in order to keep her (read: cling to her), namely regarding sexual monogamy and/or financial support, is a virtually a guaranteed path to major problems in life in the modern era.

I’ve said before that among the very large number of women I’ve had sex with and/or been in relationships with, I’ve only been in love three times in my 44 year life. As of this year, that total has now become four. To me, this is about the correct balance. Be with many women, fall in love with just with a tiny few. I disagree with extremists on both ends, both the high-emotion men who are seemingly falling in love all the damn time with woman after woman, and the jaded anti-women guys who think love is a bunch of bullshit and consistently and purposely avoid love, if not avoid pair bonding altogether, even into their older years.

One of the concepts I’ve tried to convey in my books and blogs, perhaps unsuccessfully, is that you can fall in love with a woman, and have her love you back, without getting oneitis. Yes, it’s possible. You can truly love a woman without chopping off your balls by making monogamy or financial promises, or without becoming needy.

I remember way back around 2008 when I first reached this point in my life. I’ll never forget it. I fell in love, hardcore in love, with a woman, yet didn’t get oneitis for her. I didn’t promise her monogamy, even though she strongly wanted it. I didn’t lose my mind and move in with her, impregnate her, or marry her, even though emotionally I wanted to do all three of those things. (Remember, oneitis is a set of actions, not thoughts. You’re allowed to think whatever you want; just don’t act on it if it’s stupid.)

I didn’t make her any of those kinds of promises even though I knew I could lose her because of it. Let me say that again. I truly and honestly loved this woman, but I was willing to lose her rather than compromise on my long-term freedom, masculinity, and/or Mission.

Now THAT’S how an Alpha falls in love. “I truly and honestly love you, I want to be with you, but I’m not changing for you, and if that’s a deal breaker, you should probably go be with someone else. I’ll be sad when you go, but I’m not suffering long-term limitations or unhappiness because of you. My life, my being, is too important.”

Beta males and many Alpha Male 1.0s don’t have the ability to do this when they fall in love. For them, love and oneitis is the same thing. That’s where idiotic things like monogamy, divorce, and lending women money come from.

So step one, before you even fall in love with anyone, is to build up your self esteem, Mission, confidence, outcome independence, and sexual abundance to the point where you can fall in love (and I mean hardcore love) with a woman, but still not get oneitis for her and not compromise who you are to keep her.

It’s like having a real superpower. I felt so good so many years ago when I knew I could do this!

Let’s examine his specific questions further.

How long does it take until you say to a woman “I love you”?

For me to say the words “I love you” to a woman and mean it literally, which has only happened with four women in my entire life of 44 years and scores of nonmonogamous relationships, I have two requirements that must be met first:

1. I have to actually be in love with her. I fall in love very slowly (thank goodness). It takes me many months, often a year or longer, of seeing someone consistently before I get these kinds of feelings. I’m talking about love now, not NRE. NRE is different, since NRE can happen almost instantly. The woman I love right now has been in my life for 2.5 years (though we weren’t together that entire time; that was about 1.5 years). The last time I fell in love took me almost two years of seeing someone consistently. The time before that took about seven months. The longer it takes you to fall in love with someone, the less problems you’ll have in your relationship life. Guys who fall in love fast tend to be higher-drama dudes.

2. I have to know for sure that she qualifies for an OLTR. I have never actually fallen in love with a woman who didn’t at least barely qualify for an OLTR, but even if I did, I see absolutely no point in getting her or myself excited if there is clearly no long-term, consistent future for us. I would never fall in love with an FB, as those tend to be lower-quality women (though not always). If I fell in love with a woman who was an MLTR but clearly didn’t qualify as an OLTR, I just wouldn’t go there. We’ll just date and enjoy each other as MLTRs and nothing beyond that. I’m not going to get into an OLTR with a woman who doesn’t qualify for it (and most don’t). That’s a recipe for disaster, and I don’t do disasters.

Do I actually wait to tell a woman I love her once I know the above two conditions are true? Yes. Do I have a specific time frame I can recommend? Not really.

Here’s the issue. Saying the magical words “I love you” is, in many respects, the pinnacle of your relationship. In some ways it marks the end of NRE, and that’s a little dangerous. Once you tell her you love her, some betaization will likely kick in, even if you’re going to be nonmonogamous forever and she knows it, and even if you’re Alpha Male 2.0 to the max and she knows it. There’s no way around this. As I’ve said many times, this is the price you pay for pair bonding, and if you never want to pay that price, you shouldn’t ever pair bond.

This is why it’s not a good idea to tell an MLTR who doesn’t qualify for OLTR that you love her. You’re going to cause needless problems in the relationship for no reason.

If you know for damn sure she qualifies for OLTR, and you want one, then your goal is a serious, long-term relationship with her anyway, so at some point you’re going to have to tell her you love her. A few of you might disagree, saying that you can get away with very serious, consistent, years-long relationship with a woman without ever saying “I love you.” I think that’s a little extreme, and I don’t think that’s experiencing love to its fullest extent. It feels good to say “I love you” to a woman you truly love. Even better when you don’t have oneitis for her.

Seriously, if you never want to say those words to a woman, don’t ever have an OLTR. Just bang FBs and MLTRs forever and you’re good to go.

I delay saying “I love you” until my gut tells me that I’m ready to say it and she’s ready to hear it. This might be a few weeks or at longest, a few months. It’s just something I feel out.

Do you always wait until she says it first?

No. The precise scenario varies depending on the woman. I also think that’s a little too “techniquey” and you’re killing some of the feelings of being in love with a woman if you over think this crap.

My last serious woman several years ago said it to me before I said it to her, but she was younger. Younger women have less girl game and are more likely to blurt this out. (I’ve had many younger women tell me they loved me.)

With women over 30, likely you’ll have to say it first, then she’ll say it back to you. The two times I’ve said “I love you” to a woman over 30, in both cases she immediately said it back to me and breathed a huge sigh of relief, revealing that she was waiting to say that to me and it was stressing her out as to whether or not she should wait longer and whether or not I loved her. Me telling her first gave her “permission.”

So we’re all playing this stupid game. As an outcome independent man, I just say it when I feel it’s appropriate, regardless of if she’s said it to me or not. Frankly, if I seriously love a woman, the odds are 90%+ that she loves me too and is just embarrassed to be the first person to say it. Hell, the very last time I first said these words to someone (somewhat recently) she was stunned, and actually had trouble believing me. With wide eyes she kept asking me “You do? You do?” Once again, she already loved me but was worried that I didn’t love her, so me saying it first calmed her down.

You might point out that that’s actually a bad thing, that you want her wondering, as it will keep attraction high. You’re absolutely right. It demonstrates my quality relationship game that she had no idea I loved her, when I actually loved her quite a bit. (She’ll be reading this blog post soon. Hi Sweetie!) But as I just said above and have talked about many other times, OLTR is a very different animal, and it’s where many of the rules start to change. If you want a serious, consistent, years-long relationship with someone, you’re going to have to venture down a slightly different path.

What if she falls in love with you and says it but you don’t love her? Do you just smile and don’t answer?

Pretty much, yeah. It depends on if it’s an FB or an MLTR. I’ve had numerous women in both categories fall in love with me, or at least tell me they did, when I didn’t love them.

First of all, it’s not a big deal. One of the cardinal rules of interacting with women is this: if something is a big deal to you, it will be a big deal to her. If it’s not a big deal to you, it won’t be a big deal to her. So if she says “I love you” and you give her a double-take while your eyes are bulging out and you’re trying to figure out what to say, you’ve already fucked it up. You’ve made it a Big Deal™, so now it’s a big deal to her. Get ready for some embarrassment, hurt feelings, and possibly some drama.

If it’s an FB telling me these three magic words, I’ll give her a big kiss, smile, give her great eye contact, and tell her something like, “You are so sweet!” I love it when a beautiful young woman tells me she loves me, regardless of if I love her back or not. It’s wonderful and flattering. Enjoy it!

But then, I’ll do something like pinch her cheeks, and immediately change the subject. This is really important, because I’m not getting into a fucking conversation about this with a FB. A FB is a friend, not a lover, and she needs to get that. If you strongly change the subject in a very casual, relaxed tone (remember, it’s no big deal), she’ll get the point fast and move on. I’ve never had a problem doing this.

By the way, you should not have FBs falling in love with you if you’re following all the correct nonmono relationship rules. If you are, you’re screwing this up big time and are sending too many boyfriend / provider signals when you should not be. I’ve only had one FB in my entire life tell me she loved me, and I’ve had lots of FBs.

If she’s an MLTR, this gets a little more complicated. Unlike with FBs, with MLTRs, there are some real two-way romantic feelings going on. You need to make a judgment call on whether or not you want to proceed with this MLTR under the umbrella of “I love you.”

You can love an MLTR. That’s within the rules. I’ve done it. But she’s going to have to be a high-end MLTR, above and beyond all the other women you’re seeing. Also, hopefully she’s demonstrated a nice track record of low jealousy and low drama.

If you want to move forward with her under the love model, then go ahead. Tell her that you care for her deeply and want to take things slowly, but that you want to be with her. Use your own words.

If you don’t view her as a high-end MLTR at all, just a midrange or low one, and have no interest in getting more serious with her than you are right now, then you need use the method I described above when talking to an FB. If she pushes for more conversation and details, which is likely since she’s an MLTR, then tell her (gently!) that you care about her, but want to keep things the same between the two of you.

Be prepared for some tears when you do this. When you love someone, you want them to love you back, and when she realizes you don’t, she’s going to be unhappy. This is okay. Let her emote, be kind and loving, and support her…provided she doesn’t actually start giving you drama by insulting you or laying down demands or ultimatums. (And if she does, you know what to do: INSTANT SOFT NEXT!)

Let’s flip this around. What if you are love with her and she’s not in love with you? This has never happened to me (outside of high school that is), but I know it’s happened to plenty of you.

The only valid question at that point is this: are you and her actually having sex?

If the answer is yes, then downgrade her to an FB or very low-end MLTR at the very most, and start focusing on other women in order to find someone new with whom to have these shared feelings. Continuing to have sex with her, assuming she’s hot, is great. Keep doing that. But continuing to have one-sided feelings for a woman in the long-term is extremely destructive to your self esteem and frame as a man, as I’ve described in great detail when discussing friend zone (though you’re not in friend zone if you’re actually fucking her; that’s why it’s okay to continue).

If the answer is no, and you aren’t having sex with this woman, now we have a very severe problem that you need to take strong and radical action to fix, right now. At this point, you really are in friend zone, and you need to get the fuck out right now. Read this and this, and then follow up with this. Then nicely eject that woman from your life and start having sex with at least one new girl, preferably one physically hotter than the woman you currently like.

I’ve said it a hundred times, and I’ll say it again: regularly spending time with a 100% platonic female friend you want to fuck but can’t is a slow death sentence for the masculine man. (The only exception to the rule: you’re successfully using her as a wing or pivot to actually have sex, for real, with many of her hot female friends.) If you actually love this woman, this becomes ten time worse. Be a fucking man and end it. Right now.

There are 3.5 billion women on this planet. Loving just one of them who doesn’t love you back and/or doesn’t even have sex with you is one of the stupidest things you can do with your time and your emotions. You seriously need a punch in the mouth.

I hope this gives you some guidance on what to do about this whole love thing. Like most everything else in relationships with women, it’s a good thing, but it requires forethought, strength, and management, or else it will throw you into a happy-now-unhappy-later model. We don’t want that. We want the happy-now-happy-later model. Much better.

46 Comments on “When To Say “I Love You”

  1. I like a girl, and she likes me. She said I love you to me first and we been in this “We like each other, but we never had sex” zone.

    She is a virgin still. How should I proceed from here?

  2. I basicly agree with what you just wrote here. The only thing I would like to add about saying I love you to a high end MLTR is that if she responds that she does not love you is this. Are you the type of person who has the ability to downgrade her to an FB or low end MLTR? If you do have this ability, then do you have the will and discipline to carry it out? If the answer is no to either of these questions, then it is time to get rid of her either by SOFT NEXT or maybe better HARD NEXT for your own psychological well being. Obviously, you should only say I love you to high end MLTRs and OLTRs at best or at least those who have the potential to be OLTRs at worst. Never say I love you to women you are not having sex with nor FBs or low to mid range per Black Dragon’s advice. When you answer these questions above you better answer honestly and definitely know what you are talking about. It is just my opinion and advice so you can take it or leave it, but I think it is a great opinion and advice and see no reason for anyone to disagree. I am open to constructive even if it is harsh criticism so let me know what you think.

  3. I meant to say never say I love you to women you are not having sex with nor to FBs nor to low to mid range MLTRs above.

  4. Three little words that can lead to so much trouble. Often blurted out by men in a weak moment and latched onto by women who want to hear it. And it’s the man’s fault as the emotion is fleeting and soon over.

  5. If a girl says “I love you” first to a guy, would that scare any of you guys off if you don’t love her back?  Would you feel freaked out, feel she is a stalker or suddenly like her less?

    From what I read above, it seems like this no reason for any real concern.  BD just seems to handle it by saying a nice comment to them and possibly changing the subject shortly thereafter and he’s flattered.  It doesn’t seem like he sees it as any reason for concern with the relationship going forward just as it had been.

  6. BD

    I’m using this… “I truly and honestly love you, I want to be with you, but I’m not changing for you, and if that’s a deal breaker, you should probably go be with someone else. I’ll be sad when you go, but I’m not suffering long-term limitations or unhappiness because of you. My life, my being, is too important.”

    You articulated what I typically tell girls in this situation very well.

    Great article-keep up the great work my friend!

  7. A fun trick for the times I didn’t want to say ‘I love you’ back. (Either because I didn’t or she just says it too much.) Most of the girls I mess with have a decent percentage of nerd in them and dig Empire Strikes Back or at least have heard me say how much I love, and find hilarious, the scene where Han is lowered into the carbonite chamber. Where he doesn’t say “I love you” back to the princess but “I know” pimpest line ever.

    So when I hear a girl say “I love you” and don’t feel like saying it back for one reason or another (even if it’s just to tease her) all I say is “Han Solo” (equals “I know”) with a playful smirk. This has always been a great defusing technique, diverts their mind just enough, funny and often something that gets the girl to playfully pinch or punch me with a slightly frustrated attitude, which usually leads to sex. Steal it, own it, it works.

  8. Gonna sound like a manospherian (possibly a sex negative MGTOW) here but whatever. Of all the things they are hilariously wrong about, they are right about the pressures involved in pair bonding and to some extent, why pair bonding isn’t necessary. So bear with me.

    I’m never saying “I love you” or anything like it to any chick ever again even if she says it first. I’m a sadistic piece of shit, but I’m not psychotic enough to put THAT much pressure on a chick. And I’m not masochistic enough to want to have that kind of pressure. Cuz that’s the only meaning those three words carry: Pressure to act and do certain stuff for whoever you say it to. Chick says she loves me? I know that she wants to make me her cuckhold. Since I’m not interested in that, I usually hard next right after saying “you saying that just put a lot of pressure on me. I don’t like that, it makes me feel uncomfortable.” Then the chick writes a shitty poem that Taylor Swift later puts into lyrics…or something like that. If I say it (or even imply it) to a chick? I’ve just put pressure on her to have sex with me.

    IMO anything involving the word “love” or even “like” is just a severe departure from anything logical and throws the object that you “love” onto a pedestal. IMO this can only be reserved for things that aren’t organic (like ideas, shows, blogs, video games etc). If I enjoy a chick’s company, I literally say that: “I’m enjoying the company.” “Its awesome being with you.” I can’t “love” it cuz to me that means I have to enjoy the company forever, and there’s no guarantee in that. At least enjoying the company and saying that the company is awesome implies that its great at the moment. I’ll say it jokingly or in a way that doesn’t apply pressure, “I love ya man/girl!” but that’s about it. And that’s really the dichotomy: Do you want love, or logic? You can’t have both. Ever. Everyone is afraid to address that dichotomy too. Instead the feminists throw around terms like rape culture and MGTOW throw around terms like “hypergamy” and “hookup culture.”

    To hell with long term relationships that we are pressured to have because its “cool” or “the logical thing to do.” or other Disney type concepts/reasons. That goes for ANY long term relationship: mLTR, OLTR, anything. You can’t extend NRE, and that’s exactly what LTRs are designed to do: Extend NRE. Maybe back in the day when we didn’t have this supposed hookup culture and hypergamy (which is really just chicks being able to make their own sex choices) it was possible but nowadays? Its a virtual impossibility. And I’m OK with that! I’m down for that! The fact that I can “e-approach” hundreds of chicks online who would probably shoot me down hard during day and night game cuz I didn’t look like the 6’3” six pack abs frat douche is great. The fact that I can cold approach and not be seen as a weirdo (cuz I don’t catcall like a retard) is great! But there is a sacrifice and that sacrifice is the long term relationship model. I’d argue that pair bonding is OBW nowadays. I’ll go that far.

  9. Never say I love you to women you are not having sex with nor FBs or low to mid range per Black Dragon’s advice.

    Or just don’t say it to anyone ever. No one deserves that kind of pressure whether you put it on a chick by catching dumbass feelings and saying you love her, or the pressure put on you if a chick says it to you.

    Love and pair bonding = Obsolete Biological Wiring. You heard it here first.

  10. Great Post! I wish I had read and aplied this before.

    I delay saying “I love you” until my gut tells me that I’m ready to say it and she’s ready to hear it.

    Golden Advice there.

    If the answer is yes, then downgrade her to an FB or very low-end MLTR at the very most, and start focusing on other women in order to find someone new with whom to have these shared feelings.

    Learned this by experience.

  11. I have never, and will never say “I love you” to a woman unless these two conditions are met:

    1. She is an OLTR or high end MLTR.

    2. She says it first.

    If even one of the above two conditions aren’t present, there’s no way I’m saying it. So I disagree with the notion that you can say it first. If you say you love her when she doesn’t, you’ve just given her the upper hand and have now betaized yourself. Or, even if she does love you, she doesn’t have to say it back if she thinks it is advantageous to her agenda to make you sweat (even if you’re not really sweating but she thinks you are).

    Never give a woman that kind of power. She must say it first and it must be in the context of a high end MLTR or OLTR. Period.

    Now, if she tells me she loves me first and I do not love her back, I’ll do one of two things:

    1. If we’re in an MLTR arrangement, I’ll probably do the Han Solo thing and say “I know” or do the BD method of kissing her and saying, “you’re so sweet” or something. But I’ll also probe a little bit to make sure that this ongoing arrangement will not hurt her, but if this is a big deal to her and me not returning her feelings will put her in a depression, then I’ll have to hard next her, just out of concern for her well being.

    2. If we’re just FWBs or FBs, her saying this is an instant hard next! This is grossly inappropriate for this stage, shows a sexual immaturity on her part, and a type of fragility, neediness, and clinginess that makes me want to vomit. Then again, I don’t have this problem because I only go for sexually experienced women!

     

  12. @Sean:

    I like a girl, and she likes me. She said I love you to me first and we been in this “We like each other, but we never had sex” zone.

    Is this some kind of a pathetic joke?

    She is a virgin still.

    Oh for fuck sake! Dude, I have news: Virgins don’t know what love is. They will say “I love you” at the drop of a hat. It’s completely worthless and meaningless.

    So she’s never had sex with you or anyone else (have you two even kissed?) and she’s already doing the typical virgin child thing of acting like a needy and clingy parasite! Sigh… See, this is what virgins and sexually inexperienced people (both men and women) do. And all it shows is a lack of maturity and sophistication, but instead betrays a child-like innocence which makes me feel like a disgusting pedophile.

    This is reason 1,345 why I only get involved with sexually experienced women. Imagine a woman like Sharon Stone who says she has slept with over 300 men in her life. This means she has been in every type of relationship and arrangement ever conceived. She doesn’t fall in love easily. But she tells me “I love you.” Now that’s precious. My eyes might even fill with tears. Why? Because, in her case, it actually means something.

    She knows what she’s talking about. Her and I have been having sex possibly for years and have reached the MLTR stage. She knows what love is and is super experienced in everything male! And she STILL said it to me! That’s golden. It means I have great merit in her eyes. It shows a level of true appreciation which (considering how many men she’s had in the past) really makes my heart melt. If I don’t love her back, I’d actually feel a little guilty about that, lol.

    Why some men value sexual ignorance and the innocence of a child from women is beyond me. A true soulmate/partner must challenge you and be your sexual equal. This is why I was so appreciative when my current girlfriend said “I love you.” And her lay count is currently approaching the triple digits.

    But if a clingy and needy virgin says it, it is as if a little kid tells you they want to be an astronaut. It’s cute, but meaningless.

    How should I proceed from here?

    Buy her some ice cream. Pat her on the head. Then break off all contact permanently!

  13. Love and pair bonding = Obsolete Biological Wiring. You heard it here first.

    No, I didn’t hear it here first. I’ve heard this nihilistic nonsense many times from sex-negative MGTOWs, virgin losers, emos, goths, omega males, Elliot Rodger types, and the homeless.

    BD is right. Your attitude really sucks, Joelsuf. Any chance you can keep this “life is garbage” nihilism off this blog?

    @BD: Please don’t lump me in with him again.

  14. I like a girl, and she likes me. She said I love you to me first and we been in this “We like each other, but we never had sex” zone.

    She is a virgin still. How should I proceed from here?

    Jesus. Looks like I’m going to have to write a “there this one girl…” post so I can point questions like that there.

    The answer to your question is, invite her over to your place, escalate to sex, and hard next her ass if she says no.

    If a girl says “I love you” first to a guy, would that scare any of you guys off if you don’t love her back?  Would you feel freaked out, feel she is a stalker or suddenly like her less?

    Yes, that will scare off some men, more playerish guys or some Alpha Male 1.0 types (though not all). Beta males will love it. Alpha 2.0s won’t be bothered by it. So it really depends on the man.

    From what I read above, it seems like this no reason for any real concern.

    There’s no concern if the man is me. But I’m not all men. Sometimes those three words will indeed scare off certain men.

    Of all the things they are hilariously wrong about, they are right about the pressures involved in pair bonding and to some extent, why pair bonding isn’t necessary.

    Correct. Pair bonding isn’t necessary for the Alpha Male. It’s completely optional.

    I’m never saying “I love you” or anything like it to any chick ever again even if she says it first.

    If you never want to pair bond, then that’s fine, as I said in the article.

    Love and pair bonding = Obsolete Biological Wiring.

    Correct. But so is the the desire for sex without the goal of reproduction. As I explained in my book, not all biology is bad.

  15. Hey BD,

    Another good post, and it brought to mind something I’ve been meaning to ask you. For you personally, what’s the advantage of having an OLTR with FB‘s on the side, as opposed to keeping the her as a high end MLTR with other lower MLTR‘s that maybe you don’t have as strong a connection with? I’m assuming (wrongly maybe?) that it would be more enjoyable to you to have multiple women that you have a connection with as opposed to just one and some side FB‘s. Is it a matter of giving in a little bit so that she stays? Or is it just easier to do certain things (i.e. moving in together) when there’s only one woman you have feelings for? Finally, when you have your OLTR in place and you’re on the hunt for new FB‘s, do you purposefully avoid women that you could maybe develop feelings for?

  16. Very interesting thoughts here. I can understand the reasoning behind the arguments Joel, BD, and Jack are making, and part of me agrees with all of them. Part of me also disagrees that you can “fall in love” without some temporary one-itis. It’s hard for me to imagine.

    I also can’t imagine a woman saying “I love you” first to a man first. Not unless she has very, very low impulse-control, is SUPER naive/inexperienced, or is saying it out of pity. Otherwise it seems like an unspoken rule that the man says it first, since he’s the one whose commitment is supposedly more valuable. I don’t know how Jack can afford to wait for a woman to say it first because most women won’t do that.

    I totally relate to Jack’s comment that love from an experienced person is worth more than the love of a naive person. In one sense that’s true. Experienced people are definitely much more discerning and know what they’re talking about. It is a much, much greater compliment and a much greater statement on your high value as a mate to be loved by an experienced person. An unexperienced person basically has some generalized feelings of lust mixed with emotional security, it retriggers their childhood love feelings for their parents when they were young (that they haven’t felt since before puberty), it retriiggers all those intense bonding pathways in their mind, and they think they’re madly in love with the “one” because they have no other experience. After several partners you recognize the feeling and become a bit jaded to it and your standards become much higher and discerning.

    The counterargument is that while first love is meaningless, undiscerning, and fleeting, it is also the most pure and intense. Just like the first hit of heroine (so I read) or the first time you saw Return of the Jedi in the theater or other first time experiences, it can’t be replicated. So I suppose there’s something to that.

    I will certainly never be as in love as I was with my first. God, I loved him so much I wanted to unzip his body so I could crawl into it, I wanted to swallow him whole, I could not get close enough to him, I used to weep that I hadn’t been his mother so I could know him as a baby and child, if he had died while I was “in love” I would have instantly killed myself without question, I would stare at him while he slept with so much love my heart would burst, I would inhale the scent of his sweat and thought it was the most magical elixir of the gods, it felt like every cell in my body was attuned to his. We slept together every night in my tiny little college dorm room and never had a problem sleeping so close and would wake up having sex in the middle of the night. You could have locked us in a closet together for a month and we would have been happy and I did not even notice another human, man or woman, existed for 6 months, nor did he (oh how our best friends hated our relationship). Of course, 12 months later I cheated on him, by 24 months I couldn’t bear to have sex with him anymore, and by 3 years I broke up with him. And years later I can barely remember anything about him, in particular, except that he was generally cute and a nice guy. It was fleeting, it was meaningless, but for the 6 months or so that the hormones and neuro-cocktail was having its effect, it was more intense and magical than anything else in my life.

    So I can (sort of) see why people want that. Though they shouldn’t expect it to last. And wow it would suck to watch someone transition from being that in love with you to not. At least an experienced person won’t get so ahead of themselves and make all kinds of unkeepable promises and say all kinds of things they won’t mean later. You can put much more credence into what they tell you because they know what they’re talking about.

    Part of me understands Joel’s perspective. There is no logical reason for any of it. And saying the magical words is a way to create mutual obligations and “pressures”, as Joel puts it. However, I disagree with him that there is NO reason for any of it nowadays. Most people still need or want to join households for financial purposes and to raise kids. For sex or companionship alone, no, there’s no reason.

    BD’s advice sounds all very sound and logical and reasonable and well and good. But I also still can’t imagine actually *wanting* to spend time with or be with anyone else when you’re in the initial falling in love phase. A year or two or three later, sure, of course. But in my experience people who are really falling in love just are totally focused on that person and everything else strikes them as totally inferior and a waste of their time. Isn’t that what falling in love is? Your neurochemicals doing everything they can to make you focus your time and attention on one person?

    So if we argue that the neurochemicals are outdated and make no sense in this day and age, then we’re in Joel’s camp. And if we argue that although obsolete, they’re pleasurable and can be positive, in which case, forcing yourself to spend time with others when it’s going to seem like wasted time spent with second-rate people seems like forcing yourself to eat steamed vegetables when there’s prime rib on your table. Maybe good for you in the long-run, but it will feel wrong and like you’re going against all your instincts. I don’t see why you can’t just wait a year til you really WANT to sleep with other people to do so.

    I don’t know what the answer is. But I know that when I am “in love” I do not want to sleep with other people or spend time with other people and the idea of doing so feels WRONG and against all of my feelings and instincts. So I’m not going to unless there’s a really, really, really good reason to and I haven’t heard one yet. Just like after I’ve been with someone for a few years, I really want to sleep with other people and spend time with other people and the idea of NOT doing so feels WRONG and against all my feelings and instincts. So I’m not going to refrain from doing so unless there’s a really, really, really good reason.

    It seems to me that the best policy is just to not be making long-term commitments and obligations. Not more than a year or two…past that is too long to know what you’ll want and how you’ll feel. And really that goes for anything, not just a romantic relationship. Hell, would you sign up for a job that you couldn’t quit or a house you couldn’t sell or a lease you couldn’t break for more than a few years, 5 tops? Nowadays, most people can’t or won’t make (real, unbreakable) long-term commitments. It’s why I don’t understand why tattoos are so popular with young people. Why the fuck would they think that what they want on them today is what they’re going to want on them in 10 years????

    Pretty much the only real long-term commitments left nowadays are student loans (which are dischargeable in bankruptcy), tattoos (which you can remove if you’re light skinned but it still shows), and children.

    Also agree with BD that fast love is not the best and slower is probably better. And that it should be rare. But most people fall in love really fast, like within a couple weeks. No, I wouldn’t trust anyone claiming it that quickly. But can’t you kind of always tell, pretty damn quick, whether or not you *could* fall in love with someone? And for all your waiting and judging and analyzing and weighing and risk-reducing, have you ever come to a different conclusion after 2 years than you did after 2 days? I haven’t. Most people you can tell who they are right away. But I think maybe some people are more prone to wearing love-goggles and ignoring bad traits, idk. I’m not really arguing on this point, just playing devil’s advocate.

  17. God, sorry for how long that comment was. It’s mostly arguing with myself and testing different positions anyway — . I should probably not type and think at the same time. :/

  18. Poly changes this.  Makes many aspects easier, but also introduces its own set of unique problems.

  19. @Kryptokate:

    I also can’t imagine a woman saying “I love you” first to a man first. Not unless she has very, very low impulse-control, is SUPER naive/inexperienced, or is saying it out of pity.

    Then you and I don’t know the same women. Even the most sexually experienced and hardcore independent will crack eventually. Definitely sooner than me. Field tested.

    Otherwise it seems like an unspoken rule that the man says it first, since he’s the one whose commitment is supposedly more valuable.

    What commitment? You mean monogamy? Fuck that! As BD once said – commitment means putting the relationship above your own happiness. I’ll never “commit” to anyone (again).

    I don’t know how Jack can afford to wait for a woman to say it first because most women won’t do that.

    Almost every woman who has ever fallen in love with me has done that! And they weren’t Disney virgins (except my first).

    I’ve been in love 6 separate times in my life (counting my current girlfriend). I said it first the first two times (this was in high school). The first time I was 15 and I lost my virginity to a Disney virgin. The second time I was 17 and sleeping with a 16 year old girl who lost her virginity at 12. The first time didn’t hurt me, but the second time showed neediness. The 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th time, the woman said it first and I only said it back right away the 4th time.

    Women are still women. They’ll eventually say it first. Guaranteed! I’ve never met a woman who is as uncrackable as me!

    Also, what do you mean when you say you don’t know how I can “afford to wait?” I can “afford” anything. If she never says it, tough shit! She just won’t be hearing it from me then. But like I said, in this staring contest, the woman ALWAYS blinks first. It’s her nature!

    I totally relate to Jack’s comment that love from an experienced person is worth more than the love of a naive person. In one sense that’s true. Experienced people are definitely much more discerning and know what they’re talking about.

    Plus, virgins and inexperienced women will follow you around like wounded animals. I don’t want to hurt them, especially when you consider what this fragile adult child might do if I inadvertently humiliate her and make her feel like trash. She’ll feel used and raped, which might lead to a false rape accusation so she can “get her power back.”

    Fuck this! I don’t tempt the feelings of fragile animals.

    I only deal with mature women. Inexperienced snowflakes are too dangerous, especially if feminists get a hold of them and convince them that I “assaulted their heart” and they should empower themselves by getting me into legal trouble to “take a bite out of the patriarchy.”

    I will certainly never be as in love as I was with my first. God, I loved him so much I wanted to unzip his body so I could crawl into it,

    Was this the first guy you had sex with? How old were you?

    I used to weep that I hadn’t been his mother so I could know him as a baby and child,

    Getting creepy…. So you wanted to have sex with someone you wish you’d have given birth to and raised?

    if he had died while I was “in love” I would have instantly killed myself without question, I would stare at him while he slept with so much love my heart would burst, I would inhale the scent of his sweat and thought it was the most magical elixir of the gods, it felt like every cell in my body was attuned to his. We slept together every night in my tiny little college dorm room and never had a problem sleeping so close and would wake up having sex in the middle of the night. You could have locked us in a closet together for a month and we would have been happy and I did not even notice another human, man or woman, existed for 6 months, nor did he (oh how our best friends hated our relationship).

    And then:

    Of course, 12 months later I cheated on him, by 24 months I couldn’t bear to have sex with him anymore, and by 3 years I broke up with him.

    Hahaha! There’s our Kate! 🙂

    So I can (sort of) see why people want that. Though they shouldn’t expect it to last. And wow it would suck to watch someone transition from being that in love with you to not.

    Yup. This happened to me with my first Disney girlfriend (who cheated on me), my second girlfriend (who cheated on me and whom I also cheated on), my third girlfriend (who didn’t cheat and whom I didn’t cheat on, but she just fell out of love for literally no reason at all), and my fourth girlfriend (who cheated on me and whom I cheated on).

    My fifth girlfriend never fell out of love with me, and I never fell out of love with her, and we still had sex virtually every day (even though I was cheating on her regularly and she cheated on me, which is what eventually ended the relationship). Then I gave up on monogamy.

    With the first exception, none of these girls were virgins, but their love for me was so incredible and magical. Most of them even told me that they would most definitely commit suicide if anything bad ever happened to me. I felt the same way for them (this was when I was still a blue piller, obviously). But, holy shit, was it painful to see their feelings for me gradually fade away as they got gradually colder, more distant, less sexual, etc… It’s the worst feeling in the world when you’re in the monogamous cage! Only my fifth and final monogamous girlfriend never became sexually distant or less loving.

    For sex or companionship alone, no, there’s no reason.

    I disagree. Love is a wonderful thing when it’s mutual. And it is essential for a serious open relationship, even though we don’t live together or have kids.

    BD’s advice sounds all very sound and logical and reasonable and well and good. But I also still can’t imagine actually *wanting* to spend time with or be with anyone else when you’re in the initial falling in love phase. A year or two or three later, sure, of course. But in my experience people who are really falling in love just are totally focused on that person and everything else strikes them as totally inferior and a waste of their time. Isn’t that what falling in love is? Your neurochemicals doing everything they can to make you focus your time and attention on one person?

    Yes! Even in my current open relationship, I was defacto monogamous when I was in the falling in love stage, and so was she. But the defacto monogamy lasted only for a month (three weeks in her case). Afterwards, we resumed sleeping with other people, but we preferred doing that together (via group sex). After three to four months of that we slowly started sleeping with others separately again, while still being in love and happy. I upgraded her to OLTR after we attended a swingers party.

    So if we argue that the neurochemicals are outdated and make no sense in this day and age, then we’re in Joel’s camp. And if we argue that although obsolete, they’re pleasurable and can be positive, in which case, forcing yourself to spend time with others when it’s going to seem like wasted time spent with second-rate people seems like forcing yourself to eat steamed vegetables when there’s prime rib on your table. Maybe good for you in the long-run, but it will feel wrong and like you’re going against all your instincts. I don’t see why you can’t just wait a year til you really WANT to sleep with other people to do so.

    Love and emotional pair bonding are not obsolete. You can be defacto monogamous during the NRE or falling in love stage, but the rules of your relationship should still be poly. Owning each other’s bodies in a sexually exclusive manner is obsolete, but true love doesn’t have to have anything to do with such obsolete compulsions like monogamy.

    I don’t know what the answer is. But I know that when I am “in love” I do not want to sleep with other people or spend time with other people and the idea of doing so feels WRONG and against all of my feelings and instincts.

    For about a month in my case. After that, my girlfriend suggested a threesome and its so much easier to have sex with other people in front of the one you love, knowing that you’re a team and they are participating in it with you. So even when you’re screwing others, your one true love is screwing them too at the same time. So sex with others is something that enhances your love, as it is something you share together in order to make your love stronger.  

    I remember that first threesome that I had with my OLTR after it was mutually established that we are in love. It was so incredible. She was helping me take the other girl’s clothes off. I was helping the other girl take my girl’s clothes off. My girl spread the other girl’s legs, took my penis and guided it inside the other one’s vagina. The point is, we were a team and we were in love (and still are). The sex with others enhanced and strengthened our bond. Later on, we slowly started having sex with others separately!

    So I’m not going to unless there’s a really, really, really good reason to and I haven’t heard one yet.

    Have sex with the one you love and someone else in the same room at the same time. It will strengthen your bond.

     

  20. Another good post, and it brought to mind something I’ve been meaning to ask you. For you personally, what’s the advantage of having an OLTR with FB’s on the side, as opposed to keeping the her as a high end MLTR with other lower MLTR’s that maybe you don’t have as strong a connection with?

    Because OLTR is pair bonding, MLTR is not. The only way to pair bond, if that’s something you want (it’s something I want) under the nonmonogamous models I talk about is some type of OLTR (of which there are many).

    If your question is “Why do you want to pair bond, BD?” There’s two reasons:

    1. I’m 44 years old. I’m a very old man as compared to the vast majority of men reading and commenting on this blog. When you get older, you start to want to pair bond. It’s normal. (Yes, there are exceptions).

    When I was in my 30s I didn’t want an OLTR at all and thought it was a dumb idea (which is why I didn’t have one back then). I have a feeling many of the men commenting here about how they’ll never say “I love you” are under the age of 40 or close to it. Now I’m older, and things change when you get older. If you’re in your 20s or 30s, OLTR might be a bad idea for you too. It really depends on your age, your long term plans, your personality, and what you want out of life, but age is a big factor.

    2. I’ve fucked a huge mountain of very hot women, of all ages, races, and types. I’ve lived every sexual fantasy I’ve ever had and what most men have had, many times over, with a large number of women. I’ve been there, done that. I’ve also experienced multiple MLTRs and had simultaneous connections with all of them (as many as 3 at a time). Again, been there, done that, a lot.

    As I explained once before, once you’ve lived your all of your fantasies hardcore, you really don’t need to do them any more (though you still can’t be 100% sexually monogamous; that’s biological, not mental).

    If you haven’t lived all of your wild, awesome sexual fantasies yet, and are still in that mode, OLTR or pair bonding is probably a bad idea. But I’m way past that phase.

    I’m assuming (wrongly maybe?) that it would be more enjoyable to you to have multiple women that you have a connection with as opposed to just one and some side FB’s.

    It depends on what you find enjoyable. When I was 36, yeah, I found that more enjoyable. Now that I’m 44, I find juggling MLTRs way too much of a pain in the ass. I just want one OLTR and one/two sporadic FBs on the side so I can focus on my work and my Mission. That would be heaven for the 44 year-old me, but boring for the 36 year-old recently divorced me.

    Is it a matter of giving in a little bit so that she stays? Or is it just easier to do certain things (i.e. moving in together) when there’s only one woman you have feelings for?

    I’m unsure of the context of your question. Yes, I would like to cohabit someday (see the two reasons above as to why), and yes, OLTR is the only way you can do that under a nonmono model.

    Finally, when you have your OLTR in place and you’re on the hunt for new FB’s, do you purposefully avoid women that you could maybe develop feelings for?

    No. My boxes are very compartmentalized. I’ve never caught feelings for another woman when I had a high-end MLTR or OLTR in my life. Not once, and not even close. Once I care for someone, she’s all I care for. Period.

    If you’re a more emotional guy, you might have that problem and you may need to avoid such women. I’m an INTJ robot so I don’t have that issue. 🙂

  21. I also can’t imagine a woman saying “I love you” first to a man first. Not unless she has very, very low impulse-control, is SUPER naive/inexperienced, or is saying it out of pity. Otherwise it seems like an unspoken rule that the man says it first, since he’s the one whose commitment is supposedly more valuable. I don’t know how Jack can afford to wait for a woman to say it first because most women won’t do that.

    Really?  I’ve been the first one to say it to men, but to me it seems more the natural order of things, as women tend to be more emotional and recognize they are in love sooner.  Or at least they are more willing to admit it sooner (note the reactions of the men to this post, lol).  I don’t really view saying “I love you” as some sort of commitment, though I have heard that is how most men view it.  To me, its just an expression of emotion.  That’s not to say I don’t take the words seriously, I would usually not say “I love you” to someone I hadn’t been sleeping with for at least a year and feel really, genuinely in love with.

    In any case, a lot of people seem to have an irrational fear of using those three words.  Especially men, who tend to think it has to imply something life long.

    The only times I can remember men saying it to me first felt insincere.  Like, the first time my ex husband said it to me we’d only known each other a few weeks and my response was “you’re just drunk” lol.  Or they said it in a way that felt manipulative, like trying to get me to forgive them for a wrong done or get something out of me.  Then, like this married guy that I have been sleeping with on and off for 5 years, he said it the other day, during sex, haha.  But I know he doesn’t mean it, he talks all kind of shit during sex.  It still caught me a little off guard, like wtf, did he really just say that?

  22. Elvin Bishop had the answer to this issue in the 70s.

    But for beasts like me and some others… @BD

    “If you’re a more emotional guy, you might have that problem and you may need to avoid such women. I’m an INTJ robot so I don’t have that issue. “

    When I hear people talking about relationship drama, marriage issues, etc. I just pretty much shut down like if they’re speaking a different language. I’m a pleasure of sex and INTJ robot guy to the extreme. Why waste your time with all of that bullshit if you just want to spend some time grabbing some tits and ass? It still genuinely bothers me that most young people I talk to are trying to emulate traditional monogamy and act like everyone they ever have sex with needs to be someone they can introduce to their parents and take on church picnics or some kind of comparably lame activity. Why do people still aspire to living like that? Why do guys care if a girl is slutty or easy to have sex with unless they’re trying to marry her or have children with her?
    “Oh noes! This girl let me have sex with her! She might not be good relationship material!” Those fucktards can go back to their romanticized version of the 1950s that never existed.

  23. I’ve heard this nihilistic nonsense many times from sex-negative MGTOWs, virgin losers, emos, goths, omega males, Elliot Rodger types, and the homeless.

    Calm down dude. I was just saying that I’m not wired to pair bond. If others want to do it, then whatevs, I don’t want any part of it. I’m a sex positive MGTOW/serial monogamist whatever the manosphere wants to call a person who just dates around short term. I’m not out to make sure that pair bonding goes away. I don’t get butthurt from “hypergamy” (a sex negative MGTOW go-to term to cope with their sexlessness). Like you, I like hypergamy. The fact that chicks have sexual freedom is awesome. If social circle/arranged marriages were the only dating options I had, THEN I would be sex-negative MGTOW. I’m just trying to say that they have a point when they say that the more sexual freedom we have the less relevant pair bonding is to our happiness. Hope this cleared everything up. I didn’t mean to sound like a sex negative MGTOW.

    BD is right. Your attitude really sucks, Joelsuf. Any chance you can keep this “life is garbage” nihilism off this blog?

    I am however, out to say that denying meaninglessness is a shallow coping strategy and once meaninglessness is embraced, it frees you in a way. Which it does. But I don’t judge people for coping, we all do it. So no, there’s no chance of that happening. It will get a brief mention if I feel like it is pertinent to the discussion. If you read my comment carefully, you would see that you and I are on the same wavelength here. I’m just not afraid to take it a step further. If it gets misinterpreted as having a bad attitude, then that’s just the way the cookie crumbles I guess. irl I laugh at pretty much everything and people go “why are you NEVER stressed out?” I guess my tone is a little different online. So sorry about that, I guess?

    Don’t confuse me for one such as Tom Arrow, who has made his defeatist philosophy a spectacle:
    http://manwithoutfather.com/2015/09/24/what-is-this-shit-life-all-about/

  24. Hi BlackDragon

    Totally unrelated to the topic, but I just bought your book 5 minutes ago.

    I’ve lurked here for about 2 months and I’ve read seduction related stuff for about 6 years now. But for some reason, I just felt so compelled to buy your book. First time ever buying a book online for anything really. I’m from South Africa and most people got paid today, including me. And I just had to cough out my 135 Rands (SA currency) and get this book!

    Not so much for seduction, I’ve got that down, I really bought the book to get pointers on how to improve my financial life. Fair to say, I know I won’t be disappointed.

    Keep up the good work, trust me, it truly resonates!

  25. Even now in my mid 30’s (and not wanting to pair bond at all) I completely agree with the change BD stated on his last comment.

    This life of FB‘s and MLTR‘s won’t satisfy a man forever, especially after you hit your personal age threshold (rare exceptions aside, must usually be between 40-50).

    I can sure foresee it, so I’m just enjoying things as they are ATM and fulfilling all my fantasies in between. Wanna look back and say “yeah, I did it, know how it is” after I shift to this new phase.

  26. It still genuinely bothers me that most young people I talk to are trying to emulate traditional monogamy and act like everyone they ever have sex with needs to be someone they can introduce to their parents and take on church picnics or some kind of comparably lame activity. Why do people still aspire to living like that?

    Societal Programming.

    The most powerful force in the world.

    I’ve lurked here for about 2 months and I’ve read seduction related stuff for about 6 years now. But for some reason, I just felt so compelled to buy your book. First time ever buying a book online for anything really. I’m from South Africa and most people got paid today, including me. And I just had to cough out my 135 Rands (SA currency) and get this book!

    Thanks man. I’m glad you trusted me. I won’t let you down.

    This life of FB’s and MLTR’s won’t satisfy a man forever, especially after you hit your personal age threshold (rare exceptions aside, must usually be between 40-50).

    Well, again, it depends on the man. There are some men who would be fine with FBs/MLTRs for the rest of their lives, but they’re in the minority. I would be “okay” with nothing but FBs/MLTRs for the rest of my life, but I would prefer an OLTR with one or two side FBs (which is what I have now).

  27. I am however, out to say that denying meaninglessness is a shallow coping strategy and once meaninglessness is embraced, it frees you in a way. Which it does. But I don’t judge people for coping, we all do it.

    See, it’s people like you, Kate, and Gil that makes atheists like us look bad in front of the religious crazies, which is rather embarrassing. This cult of “meaninglessness,” determinism, fatalism, and nihilism is such a disturbing fetish among certain atheists it makes me want to puke.

    Claiming that there’s no meaning behind anything is tremendously arrogant, which rivals the cockiness of religious believers. Our brains are way too small to say with certainty that there is no ultimate meaning behind the universe. Just because we reject a personified and human-like god doesn’t mean we have to turn into pessimistic goths or emos for fuck sake! Or worse, French existentialists (shudder).

     

  28. Or worse, French existentialists (shudder).

    LOL. IT’S A MIRACLE. Jack and I actually agree on one thing: we both hate “french philosophy” it would seem. Never mind that my whole line of thought, obvious in most of my comments, was precisely that the possible absence of meaning (you keep forgetting that I’m talking about a possibility, not a certitude; it’s you who are dead sure that there is a meaning. How can you even think that I’m the fanatic and not you, instead of the opposite ? You shudder at the mere possibility that there may be no meaning) was no reason for nihilism, and that one only needs to identify with one’s own biological urge to live and be happy as a sufficient reason to do just that.
    I love this blog’s comment section, almost as much as the blog.

  29. My commentary last night was a mess (too much alcohol) so I should probably clarify what I was talking about.

    1. That song is what I always think of when I see men discussing “catching feelings” for a girl. Dunno why, but I guess the line about how he’s been through a million girls then fell in love stuck with me. It’s probably also self-selection on my part because it’s one of only a handful of soft songs I like. I generally listen to heavy/aggressive music.

    2. The line BD wrote about being an INTJ robot stuck out to me because I definitely don’t get nearly as emotional as a lot of people do. I also tend to favor looking at my interactions with women from a logical standpoint of how much fun I had compared to things like time and money invested. I’ve also outright told girls that I want to eliminate the not-so-fun stuff like drama, marriage, financial problems, arguing, etc. that comes with relationships and maximize the fun parts that are mostly tied to the physicality of sex. I expect that more people are going to be doing things like this in the future as things like marriage, LTRs, and the type of family structure we’ve seen in the past century become obsolete (tradcons can suck my dick, the past isn’t coming back).

    3. I do legitimately get pissed when I hear guys around my age or younger talking about how they’re looking for “good girl” unicorns and don’t want to waste their time around “evil slut” types that will have sex with them shortly after meeting them. Is it fun to go out with a girl several times and waste a lot of time and money before you even know if she will ever be willing to have sex with you? Playing some kind of dishonest courtship game is more fun than having sex? I really don’t understand that kind of mentality. A lot of these guys seem oblivious to the fact that long term monogamy and marriage aren’t exactly fun and only existed in the past out of necessity.

     

    @POB

    This life of FB’s and MLTR’s won’t satisfy a man forever, especially after you hit your personal age threshold (rare exceptions aside, must usually be between 40-50).

    I’m younger than you and BD so I haven’t been through anything like this yet, but my personal experience and what I’ve seen from others around me is that these love/pair bonding hormones seem to be strongest when you’re young, then they pretty much go away by your late 20s. I really don’t hear people in their 30s and beyond talk about falling hard for someone else, and by that age a lot of people view relationships from a much more practical standpoint. This isn’t to stay that you might not feel a stronger affinity to some rather than others, but rather those intense romantic love type of feelings the young get are pretty much restricted to youth, then they go away.

  30. my personal experience and what I’ve seen from others around me is that these love/pair bonding hormones seem to be strongest when you’re young, then they pretty much go away by your late 20s.

    Young people aren’t screaming about love because of hormones. It’s immaturity and inexperience. That’s why:

    1. Long ago I termed women under the age of 23 as Slutty Disney. Lots of sex coupled with lots of bullshit Disney fantasies about marriage and kids. Fantasies that, you’re right, tend to go away once a person hits 30.

    2. Long ago I stopped giving relationship advice to men under 23, since every time I gave it, it was never followed. Young men, even players, want to have oneitis and be pussies when they catch feelings. Only until they hit age 24 or so do they start to snap out of this. Slowly.

    I really don’t hear people in their 30s and beyond talk about falling hard for someone else, and by that age a lot of people view relationships from a much more practical standpoint.

    Correct BUT, while the fantasy and the some of the Disney goes away, the desire for pair bonding increases with people over age 30, with both men and women.

    The average single 35 year-old woman in the dating pool desires a pair bonded (and preferably beta) boyfriend/husband far, FAR more than the average 21 year-old single girl. As much as that 21 year-old has Disney swimming around her head about getting married and shit, that 35 year-old provider hunter is far more desirous and serious about actually nailing down that future boyfriend/husband.

    It’s the same with men over 30 as well. The manosphere myth that “men are running away from marriage” is complete horseshit. They’re not eschewing marriage, they’re just waiting until their 30 to get married instead of doing it at 23 or 24 like they used to. Marriage stats all over the Western world clearly show this. Recent US census data clearly shows that while most men under 30 aren’t married, the number of unmarried men suddenly drops like a stone as soon as they hit their 30s.

    Men are not saying, “I’ll never get married!” They’re saying, “Wait until I’m in my 30s. Then I’ll marry you! Yay!”

    As I’ve said before, I understand why women cling to this stupidity, but it’s insane that men, even those in the manosphere, haven’t figured this shit out yet, and assume that legal, mono-marriage is suddenly a good idea just because the first digit in your age happens to be a 3 or a 4.

    Not that I care any more. Men who get legally married and monogamous these days deserve what happens to them.

  31. “My personal experience and what I’ve seen from others around me is that these love/pair bonding hormones seem to be strongest when you’re young, then they pretty much go away by your late 20s. I really don’t hear people in their 30s and beyond talk about falling hard for someone else, and by that age a lot of people view relationships from a much more practical standpoint.”

    I’m in my mid 40s and my personal experience is the opposite. I’m just as passionate now as when I was in my teens and early 20s, but now its better because it is passion without the blindness and ignorance of oneitis and monogomy.  My (main) girlfriend is in her early 20s and due to my experience, compasion and understanding of how relationships work, it feels like I am able to lead her in a positive relationship direction that maximises both our happiness. So we feel love and  have said we love each other but it doesn’t feel like the clingy, possesive love I experienced in my teens and 20s.

    People can also be in love later in life. When my mom was 65, her and a 75 year old guy fell madly in love. It has been almost 10 years now and they still make each other very happy. They are both in exceptional health.

  32. Love in the sense of this post is defined as “forever and always will I cherish you as a great being of value and meaning in my life.”

    But I find that people define love differently or rather have different levels of love and different capabilities for different people or situations.

    For example, I love my brother. But in an entirely different sense, I love going to concerts. I have also loved a woman without wanting to have sex with her; she was a great teacher and mentor and was not related in blood.

    I guess what I’m trying to get at is that I will very well say, “I love you,” to a woman and not mean that I’m romantically enthralled with the thought of pair bonding for life if all goes well. It could be playful after she does a cute dance for me. She could surprise me with a gift or food or remember something for me that I’m apt to forget. AND I could say it with the deepest intentions…

    Perrhaps I throw love around too easily and I’m one of the emotionally charged high drama men that BD is talking about. But love, to me, is very easy to experience and on very different levels.

  33. For example, I love my brother. But in an entirely different sense, I love going to concerts. I have also loved a woman without wanting to have sex with her; she was a great teacher and mentor and was not related in blood.

    I’m only talking about romantic love here, not the other types you’re describing.

    I guess what I’m trying to get at is that I will very well say, “I love you,” to a woman and not mean that I’m romantically enthralled with the thought of pair bonding for life if all goes well. It could be playful after she does a cute dance for me. She could surprise me with a gift or food or remember something for me that I’m apt to forget. AND I could say it with the deepest intentions…

    If you’re saying it in a clearly friendly way to a woman you’re fucking, that’s fine as long as A) you don’t say it regularly or often, B) it’s VERY obvious from your tone of voice and facial expression you don’t mean it in the true romantic way. I’ve done that myself (though again, not very often).

    I’m not talking about that here. I’m talking about the hardcore romantic stuff.

    If you’re throwing around the words “I love you” for casual reasons to a woman you’re having sex with, and you do it all the time, you’re in for drama. (But if you’re a higher drama guy, perhaps you don’t care.)

  34. BD,

    Semi-related question here.

    You’ve mentioned that you’re working toward a live-in OLTR with FBs on the side (I believe — correct me if I’m wrong). I’m wondering how that works. I imagine your OLTR partner is not okay with just having random girls come over to your shared living space and having sex with you while she’s in the other room? Do you just set aside time to only go to the FB‘s place while they never come over to yours? Do the FBs ever meet your OLTR partner?

    How does this arrangement work if the OLTR is living in the same space with you?

    Thanks!

  35. Those questions I discuss in detail in the open marriage ebook, but to give quickie answers:

    You’ve mentioned that you’re working toward a live-in OLTR with FBs on the side (I believe — correct me if I’m wrong).

    Yup.

    I’m wondering how that works. I imagine your OLTR partner is not okay with just having random girls come over to your shared living space and having sex with you while she’s in the other room?

    Correct, most OLTRs are not going to be cool with that at all (though some will; depends on the woman and her nonmono experience level). Either you have women over at your place when the OLTR isn’t home, or you do your side-playing at some other location(s).

    Do you just set aside time to only go to the FB’s place while they never come over to yours?

    That’s one way to do it, yeah. That’s what I’m going to do. I want my OLTR to feel safe in our home, so I’ll be doing this stuff outside. It’s one of the promises I’m willing to make.

    Do the FBs ever meet your OLTR partner?

    That’s completely up to your OLTR and whether or not she can handle that kind of thing. Some women will be cool with that, others won’t. Some women will want threesomes with your FBs, others won’t. Some may ask to meet your FBs but you’ll already know they’ll be drama, so you’ll refuse. Etc. Again, it depends on the woman you make your OLTR.

    In my case, it’s very unlikely my OLTR will ever meet one of my FBs, or even want to.

  36. I’m not talking about that here. I’m talking about the hardcore romantic stuff.

    BD can you please share your definition of romantic love? How do you recognise you’re in love?

  37. BD can you please share your definition of romantic love? How do you recognise you’re in love?

    That’s a tough one. I’m not sure I can answer that in a brief comment. I’m more self-aware than most men and I’ve grown very good at identifying my own feelings, so when I’m in love (vs. just really attracted or excited about someone), I know. There are some specific parameters to this also, but I don’t think they would make sense to everyone.

    Let me give some more thought on how to articulate this, and maybe I’ll make a follow-up post. It’s a valid and important question.

  38. Idk dude.

    I know many serial monogamous girls who tell their a new boyfriend each year ‘I love you.’  They smile honestly and sure sound like she’s sincere.  Then as the 12 to 18 month arrives move onto a new bf as she is winding down time with her current bf.  Social personalities.  Like she says it but doesn’t really mean it sincerely.

    Then I know many guys who ask for months on forums and irl ‘I love her.  But idk when I should tell her.  Is it too soon.’  Shy personalities.  I’m sure the guy actually does love her only he’s too afraid to say it.

    Correct me if I sound wrong with my conclusion but I conclude there are 2 types of personalities here.  Social personalities tell her friends, her guy friends, her bfs that ‘I love you.’  I’ve heard it too many times, too often from the same few girls who say it to everyone in my mainly huge guy group of friends that the words mean the same as ‘hello’.   It’s not a big deal at all for her because she does it so often all the time.  Shy personalities make a big deal of it because theyve never said it before.

    I guess this dichotomy is the same as what my ex-wholesome ex-good college friend has become in her new life.  Now 2 short years after finishing college her dailywear crazy tight shirts consists of v-necks that guaranteed show the cut between her cleavage and push up bras (mind u she didn’t show cleavage while in school).  Daily she gets a minimum one different guy trying to get number and she complains bout them.  She complains that she knows he is only talking to her because of the way she dresses.   And duh she continues dressing the same way and complaining about the guys who try to talk to her every day.

  39. That’s a tough one. I’m not sure I can answer that in a brief comment. I’m more self-aware than most men and I’ve grown very good at identifying my own feelings, so when I’m in love (vs. just reallyattracted or excited about someone), I know. There are some specific parameters to this also, but I don’t think they would make sense to everyone.
    Let me give some more thought on how to articulate this, and maybe I’ll make a follow-up post. It’s a valid and important question.

    Thank you for taking the time, I look forward to your response.

  40. I know many serial monogamous girls who tell their a new boyfriend each year ‘I love you.’  They smile honestly and sure sound like she’s sincere.  Then as the 12 to 18 month arrives move onto a new bf as she is winding down time with her current bf.

    That isn’t love.

  41. Just got back from a vacation and I see you already answered my question with this great post. And kudos for being so quick with writing it!

    Thank you BD.

  42. Hey BD,

    Like I said 2 weeks back, I bought your book and I’m loving it. I originally said I just wanted it to improve my financial life, having read seduction for 6 years. Boy was I wrong.

    I want to have your style of relationships with women. Trouble is, 2 months ago, I took a girl’s virginity within 3 weeks of meeting her. Now she’s very much in love with me, but like you said, it must be NRE. But I promised her monogamy, stupid, now I know.

    A week ago, I cheated on her with some girl I met on Twitter and laid her in 2 weeks flat. Now she’s professing her love though she knows about my former virgin GF. Its a mess.

    So, my question is. After being illuminated by your knowledge, should I drop them? Or ride it out and start afresh with new women. (Sorry if you’ve answered this in your book, I’m still on page 274)

  43. You don’t have dump them unless they’re giving you drama. I would, however, be 100% honest with both of them and tell them you’re fucking other women, and that you never intend on being monogamous. Then if they give you drama, soft next.

    And stop being a dumbass and lying to women. You know better than that.

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