first date advice, first online date, online dating advice, meaning of an open relationship, alpha male traits

A common question asked of me (and others) is:

I started hooking up with this girl, but I want to turn it into a relationship now. How do I do that?

The answer to that question involves many different facets, but the bottom line is that if you’re asking that question, you’ve probably already done it wrong and are now in damage control mode.

The frame of the relationship actually starts at the first moment of the first date (or first real-life interaction). As I’ve already explained here, your frame during the dating / seduction phase should be 85% player, 15% provider, and it should be so with all women.

If you exude 100% player, you’ll get a one night stand, perhaps a two night stand, and then you’ll likely never see her again.

If all you want are one night stands, then that’s fine. But if you’re entertaining the possibility of getting into some kind of ongoing relationship with someone (serious or casual doesn’t matter), you need to use 85/15 with all women, because, and this is important, you won’t know if you’ll want a relationship with her until after you’ve spent some time with her. If you’re exuding 100% player and then decide after five hours of face time that you want an ongoing relationship with her, you’ve already damaged your chances of something other than a one time hookup.

Instead, assume you want a relationship of some kind with all the women you meet, and if you decide later you don’t want her for that, make that decision at that time. Don’t feel bad about this, because this is exactly what women do to us. Women pretty much always have at least the possibility of a relationship in the back of their minds for all the men they met up with. If they later decide they don’t like you, they ghost your ass and move onto the next prospect.

Since I never do one night stands, I automatically assume the 85/15 frame from the first moment of the first date, with 100% of all first dates I have. I’ve said many times that I want a long-term nonmonogamous relationship with literally every woman I have sex with, ideally one that lasts the rest of my life, even if it’s just an inconsistent FB. This is not an exaggeration and I’m quite serious about this.

The Timing of the Process

One aspect of ensuring that the possibility of a FB or MLTR relationship exists with all the women you meet up with is the timing of when you follow up and meet.

As I’ve discussed in my books, once you have sex with a woman twice (on two separate occasions), you achieve a state of Lock-In where she’ll likely stick around (unless you’ve screwed something up, like going with too much of a player vibe).

However, before you’ve had sex, she can (and often will) vanish/ghost you at any time. Many guys understand this already, but after you’ve had sex one time you’re still in the danger zone. This is when an extra dosage of fear, ASD and buyer’s remorse often kick in, and once again her odds of vanishing/ghosting go up. Once you have sex a second time, only then can you relax and are good to go. At that point, seduction is over and you’re now in the relationship management phase.

Therefore, if FBs and/or MLTRs are your goal and you like to get to sex as quickly as possible, the structure of contact must look like this:

1. First date (if using online dating) or day2 (if using daygame or social circle game). (I have no experience with night game and can’t speak about that.) Ideally around 60 minutes and no more. Sex talk, kino, outcome independent vibe, 85/15 player/provider vibe, no kissing or sexual contact.

2. Follow up the next day, schedule a second date for as soon as possible.

3. Second date at your place, have sex. Make sure she cums or at least feels really good.

4. Follow up the very next day, being very nice, and schedule another meet at your place as soon as humanly possible so you can have sex a second time and achieve Lock-In. The very next day is ideal; as soon as possible otherwise.

5. Third meet, have sex for the second time, make sure she cums (or at least feels really good). Lock-In achieved.

6. Switch out of seduction / dating mode and into relationship management mode. All the usual FB/MLTR relationship rules now begin. Starting seeing her once a week and no more. Only see her more often than once a week once you upgrade her to OLTR (if ever), which should take a minimum of six months of near perfect behavior from her at the MLTR level (and her surviving The Talk).

The point here is that during the phase between the first date and the second lay is not the time to “play it cool” by waiting to contact her. Too many guys do this and lose women. As I’ve talked about often with online dating, time is your enemy. The more time that goes by, the lower your odds of success with her become.

One of the cardinal FB/MLTR rules is that you only see a woman once a week. The problem is guys read this rule and think it applies immediately, as soon as you meet a woman for the first time. No. This rule only applies during the relationship management phase, which only begins after the second time you have sex. Before that, you need to haul ass and make sure things happen as fast as possible.

In the internet age of unlimited sexual options for women, we don’t have the luxury of waiting around on purpose to play it cool without incurring lots of lost lays. Back in the 80s and 90s we could do this and it worked fine. But in a Tinder / Facebook / OKCupid world, that’s not really the case any more.

Sometimes, guys will complain that following up this quickly is “beta” or “needy.” It’s only beta if your frame and verbiage is beta or needy while you’re pitching second and third meets. For example:

Beta: “I had a really great time and I’d love to see you again. Perhaps you’re free on Thursday?”

Terrible. Your frame is weak, submissive, needy, and you’re placing her on a pedestal. Her attraction drops like a stone. However, the problem isn’t that you’re pitching the date. Your problem is you’re pitching the date like a pussy.

Let’s say you did it like this instead:

Alpha: “We should meet up again. I might have Thursday or Friday free.”

Much better. You’re being directive, you’re not kissing her ass, and your frame is strong, but you’re still being polite enough to not scare her or raise ASD.

I have used this exact system, as laid out above, scores of times over many years with extremely high success rates:

1. I get laid fast. My average meet-to-lay time is 3 hours of face time. Often, it’s much less.

2. I get laid cheap. My average, grand total cost-to-lay these days is less than $24. One third of the time it’s zero dollars.

3. 74% of every woman I have sex with turn into an ongoing FB or MLTR relationship. The vast majority if these last a year or longer, making my return on time invested absolutely fantastic as compared to anyone else I know of in the PUA world. This includes women of all ages, races, income levels, and personality types. My average initial relationship length these days is about 1.5 years before the first LSNFTE. Even after that, 94% of women return to me eventually. With LSFNTEs included, most my relationships last 4+ years, often much longer. To this day I still regularly play around with women I first had sex with 7-9 years ago with minimal effort.

This system works. If you want more detail on how to do it, check out my books.

33 Comments on “How to Turn a Hookup into a Relationship

  1. “We should meet up again. I might have Thursday or Friday free.”

    Not the expert here, but I’ve tried some of this “alpha male gusto” before and have had it backfire.

    I mean, I think if you have your shit together, are non-needy, are masculine, like yourself, and are unflappable, you don’t need to be overly concerned with being the Alpha Dong in every last interaction.

    I mean I can see the above leading to suddenly ordering for her at restaurants and telling her to do this and that, and you’re just falling back into Alpha 1.0 gorilla.

    Personally I don’t see much wrong with saying “I had fun last night.” You’re focusing on your personal pleasure, it’s honest, and if anything you’re sort of qualifying her/ acting like she passed the first test. But I could be wrong.

    It depends on your personality too. If I act too stereotypical ‘alpha’ sometimes, it appears disingenuous whereas acting normal/ outcome independent seems to fare better. I think your actual self-beliefs and frame of mind are more important than the actual words, sometimes.

  2. I’d say you’re nitpicking….while
    “I had fun last night. We should do it again, I might be free Monday or Wednesday” doesn’t roll off the tongue as easily it’s not the beta ‘kissing ass’ version. Personally I don’t worry about it at all and I usually let them contact me first after we have sex first. Happens about 50% of the time. I’m currently in the ‘too much sex’ mode, where I’ll pursue other options but I’m not really into it–I’m a lower sex drive dude and 1-3x/wk is good for me, 3x long term is too much and I start to lose interest, ane I’m already setup for that with regular girls. (Also, sex for me is a 2-3 hour affair, so it basically takes all night after work)

  3. In the internet age of unlimited sexual options for women, we don’t have the luxury of waiting around on purpose to play it cool without incurring lots of lost lays. Back in the 80s and 90s we could do this and it worked fine. But in a Tinder / Facebook / OKCupid world, that’s not really the case any more.

    Exactly!

    About the non-needy ways to do it, I have no problem being somewhat nice BUT assertive at the same time: “Really enjoyed last night…I’m free Sunday afternoon and would love to meet again“. The trick is not so much what you say but how you present yourself and at what time you do it.

    I’ll try to not nitpick, but if you shoot a text like: “We should meet up again. I might have Thursday or Friday free” after 3 hours of meeting her, that’s one thing (interested, but outcome independent)…after 3 days is a completely different thing (aloof, not caring, too much player vibe).

  4. More often than not, I find myself unsure if I want to have sex with a girl again, so I am being cool, like you said. The result is that time passes and when I contact her some days later, she goes ghost, or gets offended because of my absence, or insists on going out on a date.

  5. Personally I don’t see much wrong with saying “I had fun last night.” You’re focusing on your personal pleasure, it’s honest, and if anything you’re sort of qualifying her/ acting like she passed the first test. But I could be wrong.

    Yep, you’re wrong.

  6. In the internet age of unlimited sexual options for women, we don’t have the luxury of waiting around on purpose to play it cool without incurring lots of lost lays. Back in the 80s and 90s we could do this and it worked fine. But in a Tinder / Facebook / OKCupid world, that’s not really the case any more.

    This over 9000, I’ve missed out on sooooo many dates/lays cuz I’ve been told to “play it cool.” While it isn’t as pathetic as ho chasing, playing it cool nowadays means some other dude’s gonna hit it. The difference between hunting and ho chasing is quality. I ONLY go for chicks with jobs (or if they have no job, they don’t have kids either) and lives and who aren’t ratchets. That is hunting. Ho chasing is going after ONLY ratchets.

    About the beta vs alpha way of pitching subsequent meetups, I’d like to challenge the other commenters to think of it this way: Would you EVER ask one of your buddies “I had fun, I want to see you again, are you free _____?” I sure as hell wouldn’t. I’d be like “yo what are you doing ____? We should do ____.” I find that if I treat chicks like the people I’ve known for years, they are down more. If I use the beta way of inviting chicks, I get punished by ghosting, which happened to me recently. She was really into me too, calling me pet names right out of the gate. I dun goofed lol

     

  7. Perhaps, but I remain unconvinced.

    Eh, I think I know the difference between alpha and beta. And sometimes I know I’m as cool, or more cool, than whatever girl I happen to be sitting across from. Not in an affirmation way, I legitimately believe that.

    I tire of ‘putting on a character’ — and will just say what comes to mind.

    Otherwise I feel like this guy:

  8. I tire of ‘putting on a character’ — and will just say what comes to mind.

    No one is telling you to act like a character, but if the advice “just be yourself” worked to have sex with hot women quickly, no one would be reading blogs like this.

    But it’s your life. Have fun doing whatever you want; I’ll be over here getting laid.

  9. The problem with just saying what comes to mind is that it’s SP that’s coming to mind. Joelsuf’s comment excellently highlights how deep SP lies.

    Also the character one should put on to be successful with women is the character one should be anyway.

    Thus be the person you should be, and not the person society wants you to be, and then “just be yourself” will work just fine.

  10. … during the phase between the first date and the second lay is not the time to “play it cool” by waiting to contact her. Too many guys do this and lose women. As I’ve talked about often with online dating, time is your enemy.

    And one reason is that women operate on a 28-day cycle. It’s easy for a guy to overlook this. A week will move her to the next quarter, even a few days means that she will not feel the same way (about sex, you, life in general) that she did the day she decided to have sex with you.

  11. one reason is that women operate on a 28-day cycle. It’s easy for a guy to overlook this. A week will move her to the next quarter, even a few days means that she will not feel the same way

    VERY good point and not one I talk about enough. Yes.

  12. How do I get a girl to have the second date at my house for sex when I live with my mom? She’s very uncool with me bringing girls over and I doubt many girls want to deal with meeting my mom. Do I just try to get invited to her place? I try to but it’s pretty tricky.

  13. While it’s a bit off topic for this blog post the answer is easy: move out. If you don’t have the money to move out and don’t want to compromise (roommates make even living in an expensive city pretty cheap) then forget about women and focus on your finances. Not everyone is in a good place in life to chase chicks…focus on getting everything else in order first.

  14. I’m doing everything you advise plus with my own game and it seems to be working. But my beta conscience is beating me over the head. Very difficult to shake. All I think about is calling her and acting like a pussy. Hard to focus on grabbing other broads when I’m constantly thinking of this one. When does this get easier?

  15. The worst thing to do after sex is act needy and whiny like “are you going to see me again or is this the last time?”  I’ve had guys do that and it’s a HUGE turnoff! Begging, pleading, asking her to make a choice about you- all bad.

    What is good is a polite, complimentary, “hey I had fun, we should totally do that again sometime”.  Women, if they did like you, are anxious and nervous about it too, like is he going to want to see me again?  Being too aloof is not good either.

    Best is a compliment after sex so she doesn’t think you didn’t like it/her, but in a non-needy way.  “Wow!! That was fantastic!! 😉 ”  Leave it at that and then hit her up a few days later and be like “Hey, let’s meet up again this Friday night”.

    Haaaa….but just for fun, I went and looked to see what my favorite current guy texted after our first time having sex. Sometimes he veers into being a little TOO aloof, but he’s great otherwise. Anyway, afterwards we were both all wow that was fantastic and talking about how it was 8 hours of sex. Then he said “I may be free on the 5th…Next Saturday 🙂 I have to go to Atlanta on the 6th”. Uh-oh, he used the “may be free” comment. Lolol 😉

  16. The title is a bit misleading. I had to go through the article a couple of times, but I didn’t find a clear answer to the what the title suggests. I only read an reiteration of your system, which (from my understanding) assumes that the girl/relationship defaults into LTR if not kept under control. Meaning that if you act like your average guy during the dating process, you’ll speed up the process of hook ups(if you manage to hook up in the first place) turn into relationship.

    Which I can confirm from my experience as well. If I keep it chill with a girl, meet ups are only for sex, if I let go, then the frame changes more into traditional dating. Most girls are very reactive to how you set the tone/frame of the meetup. I actually have to watch out from turning FWBs into LTR.

    Assuming you’ve hooked up with a girl more than once, then I don’t see any difficulty of leading things into LTR. You can still keep that “boyfriend potential” even if you’re just having sex, and reframe things later on.
    I mean, even your system is about classifying. FWB<->MLTR<->OLTR, upgrading and downgrading girls. So, frame is not set in stone. Just start doing boyfriendish stuff and you’ll find yourself in a relationship.

  17. VERY good point and not one I talk about enough.

    Chris from GLL has covered “Sexual availability” pretty well. But a second opinion is always appreciated.

  18. Great advice. I have made the exact mistake, having s*x with a woman the first time and then playing it cool even though she asked to meet again a few days later. I thought it might confuse the situation and make it too serious. Then when I was ready a week later and texted her she made excuses and the second meet never materialized… Too bad.

  19. Guys keep forgetting the “fake it till you make it” attitude. It works.

    If you want to get laid and what you’re doing is not working, just change. You’ll feel awkward for a bit, but once you start to get some action you’ll sure get rid of your old ways.

  20. I would recommend saying this to no girl, ever.

    Really?  The guys I sleep with frequently talk about how great it was with me, afterwards.  I don’t find THAT needy at all, as long as it was mutual.

  21. Guys are reading too much into words and playing games. That’s only needed for recovering betas. If you really are an alpha, everything you say will be, by definition, what an alpha would say.

    No need to be a stoic, emotionless bore who can never admit positive emotions or validate the girl, ever. At that point you could put on a tiara and watch Dora the explorer and still be an alpha and plow your women.

  22. After having sex with a woman the first time, how do you go about overcoming any objections she may have of coming directly over to your place a second time?  I’ve had experiences in the past where I hooked up with a woman, we both had a great time and when I pitched the idea of her coming over again I got the “I’m not a booty call” or a similar type of resistance.  It’s almost as if, no matter how good the sex was their attitude changes to a “oh no, I’m not falling for THAT again”.

  23. I didn’t find a clear answer to the what the title suggests.

    The discussion of 85/15 is exactly what the title suggests.

    I only read an reiteration of your system,

    The timing of when to follow up and have subsequent dates, and the importance of speed in the real-life dating sequence, is something I’ve never discussed on this blog before.

    which (from my understanding) assumes that the girl/relationship defaults into LTR if not kept under control.

    Not exactly. Before sex twice, the girl defaults to “run away” if not kept under control. After sex twice, yes, the girl defaults to monogamous girlfriend if not kept under control.

    Both of these are because of Societal Programming, sadly.

    Most girls are very reactive to how you set the tone/frame of the meetup.

    Exactly. That’s why the frame of the relationship, good or bad, is largely the man’s fault. She’s just following his lead.

    Chris from GLL has covered “Sexual availability” pretty well. But a second opinion is always appreciated.

    Menstrual / ovulation cycle is indeed a factor with these things, and you should keep it in mind so you don’t get completely confused about why a woman who was super interested in you three days ago suddenly ghosts you.

    However, you shouldn’t focus on it, and I see many men doing this. The challenge is that A) you have no idea where a woman is in her cycle during this phase (particularity if it’s an online interaction) and B) you have absolutely no control over it even if you did. Therefore, focusing on women’s cycles is a mistake. You have zero control over this. Just keep it in the back of your brain as an explanation for certain results.

    Really?  The guys I sleep with frequently talk about how great it was with me, afterwards.  I don’t find THAT needy at all, as long as it was mutual.

    As usual Lovergirl, you’re giving advice you how you personally would react in certain scenarios. We’re talking here about how most women react in most scenarios.

    Makeshift is right. Gentlemen, don’t send a text saying “Wow! That was fantastic!!!” after fucking a girl the first time. Your odds will go down for most women if you do something like this too early (and after sex once is way too early).

    For the record, I sent a text just like that to a woman about a week ago after having sex…but she’s a very important woman I’ve been having sex with for almost 2.5 years.

    Again, it’s about the timing.

    Guys are reading too much into words and playing games. That’s only needed for recovering betas.

    Correct. A few guys in this thread are getting way too hung up on the exact wording. They know what’s beta and what’s Alpha.

    After having sex with a woman the first time, how do you go about overcoming any objections she may have of coming directly over to your place a second time?

    The same as when pitching the place the first time. If she balks, just meet up at a bar near your home instead, then bounce home after an hour or so, and fuck again. However, this scenario (a woman balking on your place after the first lay) is very rare if you stick to women under age 33.

    I’ve had experiences in the past where I hooked up with a woman, we both had a great time and when I pitched the idea of her coming over again I got the “I’m not a booty call” or a similar type of resistance.

    Were they over 33? That kind of thing happens for over-33s all the time. Rare for under 33s unless you live in an oddball city. (I think I’ve had a grand total of two women under 33 pull that with me.)

  24. You’re right Blackdragon, all of the women who’ve given me the “I’m not a booty call” line were indeed over 33. It always comes back to knowing the fundamentals. By the way, I think this is your best article yet. It’s answered a lot of lingering questions I’ve had in how I’m going about first and second lays with any given woman. And looking back to past successes, I was unknowingly doing most of what you’re preaching here.

  25. You’re right Blackdragon, all of the women who’ve given me the “I’m not a booty call” line were indeed over 33.

    I’m a genius.

    Most answers to the questions I get like “What happens when a woman does X? I’ve had so many women do this!” is simply, “Stop dating women over age 33.”

    So many problems men have in their dating lives instantly vanish when they start focusing on women under age 33.

    By the way, I think this is your best article yet. It’s answered a lot of lingering questions I’ve had in how I’m going about first and second lays with any given woman.

    Thanks dude.

  26. With the quote at the beginning of the article, my assumption was these guys already had sex multiple times. My comment follows that assumption. So yeah, I agree that there is always a struggle between having quick sex and retention. Too fast, and you’ll get a one night stand at best, too slow and she’ll forget about you.

    However, you shouldn’t focus on it

    It’s not so much about focus as it is about being aware of it. In particular for young guys who are just getting into the dating scene, and are overwhelmed with the expectations that society has of them. On one side they hear the (misleading) dating tips coming from girls, like “it’s hot when a man cooks/does the dishes etc”.
    On the other hand they find the Pick Up community obsessed with game, that gets these guys stuck with mental masturbation,  trying to break down every single line/word. Just look at the comments above.

    Being aware of sexual availability, takes a weight off your shoulders and helps build outcome independence, by not taking rejections too personal.

  27. BD, speaking of timing, of 28-day cycles, of availability:

    In what situations and after what delays would you recommend re-engaging unresponsive women that are still at the dating stage?

    I recall you stating that rejection after one or more dates is absolute, that you have never been able to get to sex after such a rejection, even if later the woman contacts you herself. What about other cases, is there any reward for persistence?

  28. In what situations and after what delays would you recommend re-engaging unresponsive women that are still at the dating stage?

    I recall you stating that rejection after one or more dates is absolute, that you have never been able to get to sex after such a rejection, even if later the woman contacts you herself. What about other cases, is there any reward for persistence?

    Correct. Rejection after one or two dates is, at least in my experience, absolute. No technique or method will turn that around unless you get amazingly lucky.

    That’s my answer. If you’ve already met up with her in real life on one or two dates, and she ghosts you, she’s gone. She doesn’t like you, period. Move on. Don’t waste any more time on her.

    However! If she has never met up with you (online interaction only) OR you’ve had sex with her at least twice, then it’s very different; follow up a little later in a non-needy way and you may score.

  29. Blackdragon you genius motherfucker. So glad I found your damn blog. I recently found you after someone on r/theredpill brought you up as far as a discussion about 1st date lays. I understood a huge sticking point in my game after I read your blog posts and realized I could almost ALWAYS get a make out at the end of a first date and sometimes even fuck on the first date but it never went farther than that.

    Whether I only made out on the 1st date or if I fucked on the 1st date the girls STILL disappeared. I couldn’t understand cuz the manosphere told me once I fucked once I had the girl and I was oh so wrong.

    As soon as I did research on your 2nd date fuck strategy I knew I had to try it. Tonight was literally the FIRST girl I tried your strategy on and it worked like a charm. Holy fuck. Preacher’s daughter christian girl who claims she’s only had 1 partner before me (maybe, maybe not) and I was hitting it before the bars closed. My neanderthal mind never would have thought to try this strategy before I found your blog but it literally worked the 1st time I tried it.

    I’m never deviating from this shit again it was literally one of the smoothest lays I’ve ever had. I can approach, I can banter, I can dance, I can kino, I can do whatever but until I tried your strategy my skills have been incorrectly applied. Wow… You are the truth.

    I just walked her to her car and smoked a cigarette and came immediately to your blog to give you kudos cuz that shit worked like clockwork. You just became one of my dating gurus. To think all I had to do to increase the efficacy of my dating life was have a little restraint and not think every girl would put out right away… Simple yet effective.

  30. It’s a shame you discount women over 33. 33 was the age I first became aware my sexual needs were far outside the norms of society.  That was 9 years ago.  I like your methods Blackdragon.  The world needs more 2.0 alphas.  (Women over 33 included). Surely we can be pin-holed similarly?

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