first date advice, first online date, online dating advice, meaning of an open relationship, alpha male traits

Let’s say I’m guilty of something really societally inappropriate, like I’m an axe murderer.

One nice sunny day, you’re having coffee with me at a local coffee shop. During the conversation, you ask me, “So, are you an axe murderer?”

Obviously, I don’t want you to know I’m an axe murderer. That’s not going to fly very well. If I say “yes” to that question while glaring at you evilly, you’ll scream and run out of there (assuming you believe me). I certainly don’t want that, so answering with a flat “yes” is probably not going to work.

Instead, I could and answer “no.” That’s the easiest option. If I did that, I would be lying. Lying means knowingly stating something you know is untrue. If I’m an axe murderer and I answer “no” to that question, I’m a liar.

Let’s change the scenario a little bit and say that I’m a weird axe murderer with a moral code which states that I can never lie. I still don’t want to flat out tell you I’m an axe murderer; that would be too much for you to handle. I can simply refuse to answer the question. I could say something like “I’m not answering that question.”

Am I lying?

No.

I’m refusing to answer the question. Refusing to answer questions is not lying. It’s not even close to lying.

The argument against this is that I’m not lying, but, I am being deceptive. Let’s address that.

Let’s say that when you ask me if I’m an axe murderer, I don’t answer the question, but instead put on an false act that’s worthy of an Oscar. I react with innocent shock, saying something like, “What? Are you kidding? Why would you ever ask me something like that? I just…I just can’t believe this! I’m not even going to talk about this! This is crazy!”

Am I lying? No, I’m still not lying. Yet one could make the argument I’m being deceptive, and I would agree.

Now let’s say that I’m an honest axe murderer, and not only do I not want to lie to you, but I don’t want to deceive you in any way whatsoever. I actually do want to convey to you, somehow, that I actually murder people with axes.

The problem is that I need to break the news to you slowly and carefully, so you don’t completely freak out, scream, and run away. I don’t want to bluntly say it, but I also don’t want to hide it, nor do I want to pretend I’m not what I really am. If I just say, “Yep, I’m a fucking axe murderer,” that’s going to be too much for you to handle, and I like you as a friend and don’t want to cause you distress. So I need to come up with a way for you to assimilate this information more easily.

In that case, you ask me if I’m an axe murderer, and I don’t actually say anything. Instead, I just smile, lean back, relax, and very slowly, casually, like it’s no big deal, pull out a bloody axe and start picking at it. As I’m doing it, I shrug. Then I casually, in a calm, friendly tone of voice, say something like, “Eh. I don’t really want to talk about it.” Then I give you a warm, friendly smile, wink, and slowly put the axe away again.

Am I lying?

No.

Am I being deceptive?

No. You’d have a very tough time making that argument. I’m clearly conveying I’m an axe murderer to anyone with an IQ over 80. Just because I’m not saying the words “I am an axe murderer” doesn’t mean I’m not saying it.

Am I avoiding answering the question?

Yes.

Have I conveyed that it’s pretty clear I’m an axe murderer?

Yes.

Let’s forget about this axe murderer stuff, and now let’s say you’re on a date with a woman. Maybe it’s a first or second date and you haven’t had sex yet. Or, maybe it’s a woman you’ve been dating and having sex with for a few weeks.

She asks you, “Are you still having sex with other women?”

If you really are having sex with other women, then just with the above, you’ve got four options.

Option one is to do the radical honesty thing and bluntly state, “Yes.” You can even go to an extreme and say something like, “Of course I am. What am I, some kind of pussy? I’m always going to be banging chicks and if you don’t like it you can get the fuck out.”

I have no problem with men doing that. It’s honest, outcome independent, and Alpha. The problem is by saying something like that, you’re launching a direct, all-out nuclear assault on her Societal Programming, ASD, Disney, and Strong Independent Woman™ brainwashing.

If it’s you against the SP and ASD and Disney and Strong Independent Woman™ of a Western woman, you’re going to lose. I don’t care how much of a badass Alpha / PUA / whatever you think you are. You may be able to keep her around for a few months, but that’s about it.

If your goal is to have a string of short-term relationships, then fine; go for it. If your goal is, like mine, to have relationships that last years and years, this option is not going to work (unless you focus on non-Western women or if you encounter a very bizarre and rare exception to the rule).

Option two is to do the standard Alpha Male 1.0 technique of deny, deny, deny. In other words, to lie. To say “no.”

As I’ve discussed many times, lying doesn’t eliminate drama, lying only delays drama. If you tell a woman you’re not hooking up with other girls and you are, she’s going to eventually find out, and then you’re in for a mountain of drama, even if you keep denying it. Frankly, you’ll get more drama than the honesty guy above. He’ll get some drama too, but while his drama will be few snorts, head-tosses, and complaints, you’ll get a fucking avalanche of drama when she finds out you’re banging women on the side when all this time you said you weren’t.

If you’re one of those higher-drama Alpha 1.0s who kinda like drama a little, then great. Lie to women all you like, and enjoy your distrust, arguments, sneaking around, drama, and bullshit. But, if your goal is, like mine, to live a life of long-term consistent happiness, that option is not going to work.

Option three is to refuse to answer the question, but be cleverly deceptive about it. So you put on your Oscar-worthy performance and say, “What? Me??? Why would you ever think that? I love you baby. Stop being silly!”

If you’re a good actor, she calms down and takes your word for it. Then you pat yourself on the back for not lying. Then you take her out to dinner and treat her like a monogamous girlfriend even though she isn’t.

True, you’re not technically lying, but you’re being deceptive as hell. And guess what? You’re in for the same amount of drama as the radical honesty guy above. The only difference is as she’s screaming at you, you’ll take the logical and moral high ground by stating that you never actually said you weren’t fucking other women. The problem is, that’s logic. Logic doesn’t work on women in romantic relationships, you dumbass. You start logically explaining objective realities to her and she throws a frying pan at your face. Her SP and ASD is far more powerful than your logic, and always will be.

It’s actually worse than that. Not only are you being deceptive, but you’re also being wildly incongruent, a topic I’ve talked about a lot here over the years and one men still screw up on. While avoiding answering the question, you’re taking her out on dates, seeing her more than once a week, spending money on her, texting her every day, and doing all kinds of things to her that say, “I’m your monogamous boyfriend.” You’re doing all of this while still having sex with other women. Bad, bad, bad. No wonder you’re in for drama. And when she gets pissed off at you, I’m going to agree with her.

Again, if you kinda like drama, then go for it. But if you want to be long-term happy, you need another option.

This brings us to option four. Under this option, you’ve been following all the open/poly relationship rules. You’ve been making her cum every time you have sex, you’ve only been seeing her once a week, you’ve been keeping the amount of contact between you very infrequent, you’re not spending money on her or taking her out on fancy dates, you’re not talking about the relationship in any way, you’ve maintained a strong Alpha (and not boyfriendish) frame, and on and on.

This usually means that, often unlike with the above three guys, when she asks you the question, she already knows the answer. That’s why she’s asking it.

Regardless, you don’t verbally answer the question, but do so in a way that’s not deceptive. Maybe you grin and say nothing. Or maybe you give a sarcastic answer like, “Oh hell yeah. I’ve got seven different girlfriends” or “Yeah, I just nailed a cheerleader this morning,” and put a big, silly smile on your face. Or maybe you say something like, “Heh. You’re so cute. So needy and concerned,” and then slap her ass or squeeze one of her boobs. Or maybe you give her a confused look, and ask, “What? Are we getting married now?”

Being a woman, her intuition is much more advanced than a man’s. She’s also accustomed to indirect communication which is her style, unlike the direct, masculine communication of a man. Even though you didn’t verbally answer the question, you did answer it. Your answer was, “Of course I’m having sex with other women, but I’m not talking about it.” She hears it loud and clear (unless she’s retarded or deranged).

She still may not like that answer, but you’re not answering the question, you’re not lying, and you’re not being deceptive. You’re also avoiding the shock to her SP and ASD, at least as much as possible. You aren’t (likely) going to get any drama about it, now or later. This will result in a long, low-drama, nonmonogamous relationship that will likely last many years (provided you don’t screw up).

Like with soft nexting, this is often hard for men to understand if they’ve never actually done it. I have used Option Four on countless women over many years. Once I got good at it, not once, and I mean this now, not once has a woman been shocked, surprised, angry, or given me drama when I said it, or later when I actually verbalized the nonmonogamy. It’s worked on women of all ages (18-19, 20s, 30s, and 40s), races, nationalities, and personality types. It’s not lying. It’s not being deceptive provided you do it correctly as I outline above.

It works.

44 Comments on “The Difference Between Lying, Deception, and Disclosure

  1. Telling “your version” of the “Truth” is also deceptive. That’s what SP is all about. Also IMO there really isn’t such a thing as “truth,” just what people want to hear. So if a chick who I’m serious with is gonna ask me if I’ve been cheating, I’m saying yes and dropping her like a bad habit. Let her get butthurt. I already knew what answer she wanted. I used to piss off my dad ROYALLY doing this. Cuz I was able to see right through his nonsense, snuff him out, and see to the selfish prick he was. But it never worked on my mom whenever I visited her etc. That moment when you realize your mom was more masculine than your dad lol.

    Lying and telling the truth are about making predictions about answers that will satisfy the ego. If you know how to do this, you can literally get away with anything. Right, Tradcons and Leftists? 😉

  2. Or maybe you give a sarcastic answer like, “Oh hell yeah. I’ve got seven different girlfriends” or “Yeah, I just nailed a cheerleader this morning,” and put a big, silly smile on your face. Or maybe you say something like, “Heh. You’re so cute. So needy and concerned,” and then slap her ass or squeeze one of her boobs. Or maybe you give her a confused look, and ask, “What? Are we getting married now?”

    That’s it? That sounds so easy. How do you proceed with the conversation? Do you change the topic? Will she demand you to be more specific? Will you just have sex with her to get out of the situation? Will she be done asking this question or will it come up again in the future?

  3. @Mo,

     

    I’ll let BD give more on your question but I will say getting sexual at that moment is a solid idea.  Just grab her, pull her in and start to ravage that girl.  She’ll forget about what she was asking if you do it right and know all her buttons.  All goes along with making her cum every time.

  4. Do you recommend this method even for guys in open marriages, or live-in OLTRs?  I’ve heard conflicting advice about this, depending on the situation…

  5. Here’s what my experience with this has been. After I had sex for the second time with a girl, she asked me if I was seeing other girls or possibly had a girlfriend. I jokingly said something like having 15 girlfriends, two per each day of week plus one spare, and changed the subject. A bit later the same day she repeated the question, I did the same, she pressed and I said I decline to give any answer, she said “that means yes”, which I neither confirmed nor denied. Overall, she touched the subject several more times, but didn’t ask the question directly anymore, for example, with jokes like “What’s the hurry? You have to return to your wife and kids in an hour?” What’s also funny, I got the following from her, which would be dreadful to hear under some other circumstances, but not for me—namely, “I wish I could find a boyfriend like you” : ) She also described herself as very irritable, giving hell to her past boyfriends, but I have seen none of that. Only once, when through my carelessness I put her at risk of pregnancy, did she yell a single word at me, to leave her alone, which I did, and a couple minutes later she emerged and we discussed the matter calmly, decided on course of action and all was well. On her latest visit to date, she noticed what she took for someone else’s lipstick on my shirt, she asked whether that’s what it was, I said I had no idea (which was true). During subsequent sex she frightened me somewhat, I’ve never seen her that horny.

    Another one asked me “Are men polygamous?” on the second date (where sex ensued later). I said, “Biologically, yes”. To her followup I said “Depends on the man”, and she didn’t inquire directly about me. But she has such a low self-esteem I would illustrate an article on female insecurity with her photo, so she may have been trying not to offend me by asking that. (I’m getting annoyed by her constantly asking me whether I’m annoyed with her.)

    The third one didn’t touch the subject at all. I casually mentioned things like group sex, she said the idea didn’t attract her much. When our discussions strayed in this general direction, I would make sure to be non-judging and not to have any taboo subjects. I wonder to what extent women notice this.

    It remains to be seen what will come of those relationships in the long term, as I’m very new to all of this (started early this year). I’ll keep you posted ; )

  6. Mo.

    Just to put it in other words so perhaps it may help sink in.

    Assuming you’ve set the frame up properly, the fact she’s asking you this means she really really really really likes you (but keep on reading until the end). She will know not to push it.

    (If she’s comfortable being pushy with you, you’ve fucked up establishing the frame, or she’s fucking weird, or both. Meaning, cut your losses and do better next time.)

    Even if this occurs on the first couple dates, yes you do change the topic afterwards.

    However, you will find out later whether or not she’s actually, actually okay with it.

    As in she will ignore or decline the next date, slowly fade away, or she will LSNFTE you (since there’s probably a nice looking beta/alpha1.0 nipping at her heels, which is why she’s asking, and would prefer to be with you, but SP too strong that if not you, she will choose Disney.)

    But do keep in mind, some girls will ask shit like this (in the beginning) to see if you are who you say you are. As in what you’ve already conveyed, i.e. messaging, your online profile. They want that guy. In other words, congruence, as BD states. These girls will actually be particularly excited about you and will gladly play along with whatever comes out of your mouth via Option 4.

    You should always expect the LSNFTE as a likely scenario. So yes, until Disney gets erased from history and no one makes another one and everyone stops caring about that shit, it will come up here and there throughout the relationship.

  7. Hmm I don’t have experience with this.

    But my opinion is that sarcastic answers such as “yeah I have seven different girlfriends” and “I just nailed a cheerleader this morning” — convey that the proposition is ridiculous, and imply the opposite of their face value; you are implying that you do not have relations with other women, even if you don’t directly say it.

    These sarcastic answers are in fact deceptive.

    Not here to preach morals just state things logically.

    Also the axe murderer analogy is a tough one. Being an axe murderer is much worse than sleeping with multiple women to most anybody. Even if you ‘slyly pulled out a bloody axe like it was no big deal’ I think you’d freak people the fuck out.

  8. That’s it? That sounds so easy.

    It’s not easy, or else way more men would do it. It’s much easier to lie.

    How do you proceed with the conversation? Do you change the topic?

    Yep. Change the topic and move on.

    Will she demand you to be more specific?

    Only if you’ve been dating hardcore for many months, or if your frame has been too boyfriendish. Otherwise no.

    Will you just have sex with her to get out of the situation?

    I don’t try to “get out of the situation” because I don’t care what she thinks, so no. But could you escalate to sex? Sure.

    Will she be done asking this question or will it come up again in the future?

    Oh it will definitely come up again. After a few months she’ll eventually demand an answer and this technique will no longer work. Then it’s time for The Talk. This technique is only for new women.

    You should strongly consider getting my ebook on this topic. It’s all explained in there.

    Do you recommend this method even for guys in open marriages, or live-in OLTRs?

    No. Open marriages and OLTRs are women you’ve already been seeing for months or years. They already know everything. Again, the above advice is for new women only.

    After I had sex for the second time with a girl, she asked me if I was seeing other girls or possibly had a girlfriend. I jokingly said something like having 15 girlfriends, two per each day of week plus one spare, and changed the subject. A bit later the same day she repeated the question, I did the same, she pressed and I said I decline to give any answer, she said “that means yes”, which I neither confirmed nor denied. Overall, she touched the subject several more times, but didn’t ask the question directly anymore, for example, with jokes like “What’s the hurry? You have to return to your wife and kids in an hour?” What’s also funny, I got the following from her, which would be dreadful to hear under some other circumstances, but not for me—namely, “I wish I could find a boyfriend like you” : )

    Bingo. It works. It raises attraction for you without assaulting SP or ASD.

    These sarcastic answers are in fact deceptive.

    They could be construed that way by a man using less intuitive, direct male language to another man, who is probably socially unskilled, but we’re not talking about that. We’re talking about women here. Look at Anon’s example above of how well it works.

    And again, you don’t have to be sarcastic if you feel uncomfortable with it. You can simply refuse to answer the question with a smile on your face. I gave several examples that don’t involve any sarcasm.

    Not here to preach morals just state things logically.

    That’s exactly my point. I’m talking about women and you’re talking about logic. Logic doesn’t work on women. You’re viewing this completely wrong.

  9. Do you recommend this method even for guys in open marriages, or live-in OLTRs?

    No. Open marriages and OLTRs are women you’ve already been seeing for months or years. They already know everything. Again, the above advice is for new women only.

    I’ll clarify my question:

    Do you recommend dogding direct answers with new women, even if you’re in an open marriage?  I always imagine women going nuts when they finally find out I have a wife and kids, even if I convey that I’m seeing other women indirectly.  I keep imagining that the SP regarding traditional marriage and family is so strong, that having The Talk will lead to drama and a hard next.

    I recall one comment you made from long ago which recommended to be upfront if you have have an open marriage/live-in OLTR, which contradicts what’s instructed in this article:

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2015/12/21/10-steps-to-get-started-with-your-first-nonmonogamous-relationship-for-beginners/

     

     

  10. I’m at the point where I don’t even ask men this question, just assume they are dating other women, unless stated otherwise.  In any case, him making jokes would feel condescending to me and I would be annoyed.  I appreciate straightforward men.

    I’m probably more able to handle that sort of thing than a lot of women, but be careful you are not underestimating her.  Sometimes she may be asking simply because she wants to know if its okay for her to sleep around too.  Take into account who you are dealing with and try not to assume she is a delicate flower that can’t deal.

    The best answer might be something like, “does it matter?” That opens the line of communication as to whether or not you are entering into an exclusive relationship, which is her main reason for asking.

     

  11. FiveSix, the more you lie and cover up that situation, the bigger hole you are digging for yourself for when she DOES find out.

    I’m sleeping with a man right now that I am pretty darn sure is married.  I mean, I found a picture of him with his wife and wearing a wedding ring, from shortly before I started sleeping with him.  He also always gets hotels for us, even right near where he actually lives.  I’ve never been to his house.

    Seems pretty obvious, but he is talking himself into a corner because he keeps insisting on calling his wife his “ex” and correcting me if I make the “mistake” of thinking he lives with his child full time, for example.  Then he will make statements regarding how important honesty is to him that I’m cringing about because I’m sure it is, in other contexts.

    Thing is, if he came out and told me he was married right now, I wouldn’t judge and it would make things easier than putting on a facade.  It’s not like I care that much, but he doesn’t realize that. Too late in the game though, a confession might really shock a woman who didn’t know, enough to walk away.

  12. Do you recommend dogding direct answers with new women, even if you’re in an open marriage?

    No. That’s different. You’re going to have to come clean much sooner in that scenario.

    I always imagine women going nuts when they finally find out I have a wife and kids

    Stop imagining and start doing. My book on open marriages address that issue in detail.

    I recall one comment you made from long ago which recommended to be upfront if you have have an open marriage/live-in OLTR, which contradicts what’s instructed in this article

    Correct. If you’re living with an OLTR that’s a completely difference scenario and the rules change.

    I’m at the point where I don’t even ask men this question, just assume they are dating other women, unless stated otherwise.

    In that respect you are a very rare exception to the rule. Women ask this question.

    The best answer might be something like, “does it matter?”

    Yeah, that’s another possible good response, as long as you smile and change the subject. You don’t want to get into a discussion about it, and some women will try with an answer like that. That’s why I prefer answers that don’t invite follow-up questions.

  13. I’m at the point where I don’t even ask men this question, just assume they are dating other women, unless stated otherwise.

    In that respect you are a very rare exception to the rule. Women ask this question.

    That surprises me. I cannot even remotely imagine ever asking that. What possible reason is there to ask? A man with intentions of exclusivity will make himself very clear. So if he isn’t, women should just assume those aren’t his intentions (like lovergirl said).

  14. That surprises me. I cannot even remotely imagine ever asking that.

    Another exception to the rule. Haha, there’s a reason you and Lovergirl both write for Girls With Game. You’re both wonderful sex-positive exceptions (Lovergirl’s tiresome demands about men paying for dates notwithstanding).

    What possible reason is there to ask? A man with intentions of exclusivity will make himself very clear.

    That’s another reason you don’t need to ask; most men are betas or Alpha 1.0s who will bring up exclusivity before you do. As I’ve talked about many times, these days MEN are the ones who bring up monogamy and exclusivity first. (Sad.)

    However, under the systems I talk about, the man never does this, therefore eventually the woman will.

    It is extremely rare for me that a woman won’t eventually ask this question. There’s been a rare few who have not, but most will eventually ask. It’s only a question of if she’ll ask in a few weeks or a few months. (The more awesome the woman is, the longer it takes her to ask.)

  15. I respect your encouraging men to not lie or be deceptive. As a woman, if I heard any of these, I’d be hearing the same thing, just dressed up differently. I’m not sure if your expectation would be for the vague “yes” answer to garner a different end result than a more direct answer, but at least it gives men more options to be truthful.

  16. I’m not sure if your expectation would be for the vague “yes” answer to garner a different end result than a more direct answer

    I do expect it because it does. I have successfully field tested this on 30+ or 40+ women with an almost 100% success rate.

    Again though, I will repeat that this must be done with the correct EFA. If your EFA is all wrong and you do it, it likely won’t work. When you say that you wouldn’t react this way, you’re likely envisioning a man acting with the typical needy EFA (beta) or traditional or possessive EFA (Alpha 1.0).

  17. It is extremely rare for me that a woman won’t eventually ask this question. There’s been a rare few who have not, but most will eventually ask. It’s only a question of if she’ll ask in a few weeks or a few months. (The more awesome the woman is, the longer it takes her to ask.)

    I wonder if it is not because of your “system” of only seeing them once every 7 days.

    For a long time I’ve done it this way too, and after a while almost always got the “ultimatum”.

    So I started tinkering a bit (this is a very interesting subject to me, and with dating apps in a big city, you almost have an infinite number of women to experiment on lol):

    Seeing them every 10-15 days
    Never ever seeing them on the weekend
    Dialing back slightly on the time spent together after we had sex
    Initiating a bit less to meet them (have them come to me more)
    Sexualizing more by text (for example, an allusion once every 3 texts, instead of once every 5)

    With all of this, I got about 50% less ultimatums compared to the same number of girls on the same period before.

    About the same numbers of LSNFTE though, so I think it’s just that my “vibe” replaces The Talk for her, like this way she already knows what’s up without needing to ask.

    Anyway, food for thoughts

  18. FB:

    “Do you have a girlfriend?”, “No”, “Ok” and we proceeded to have sex.

    MLTR:

    “Are you still seeing other girls?”, “I know, I’m a horny bastard…but that’s what you like most about me”, smirk smile and we proceeded to have sex.

    BTW, I love the “does it matter?” piece.

  19. BD, I differ on your conclusions about lying and avoiding drama.

    As I have mentioned before to you that you are lying…you are lying by omission. Or as Mark Twain has written in his “On the decay of the Art of Lying”(a free book on Amazon) “Just so–you have told a _silent_ lie; you have left it to be inferred”

    I personally think that lying is a necessity and an ART.  Like any art, one must practice and work at it to become good at it.  I lie for advantage when it suits me.

    From Mark Twain: “for the Lie, as a Virtue, A Principle, is eternal; the Lie, as a recreation, a solace, a refuge in time of need, the fourth Grace, the tenth Muse, man’s best and surest friend, is immortal, and cannot perish from the earth”…. “No fact is more firmly established than that lying is a necessity of our circumstances–the deduction that it is then a Virtue goes without saying.”…”None of us could _live_ with an habitual truth-teller; but thank goodness none of us has to. An habitual truth-teller is simply an impossible creature; he does not exist; he never has existed. Of course there are people who _think_ they never lie, but it is not so–and this ignorance is one of the very things that shame our so-called civilization. Everybody lies–every day; every hour; awake; asleep; in his dreams; in his joy; in his mourning”

    On drama:  drama from women and men is unavoidable. The important point is not to let the drama directed at you effect your calm  disposition state of mind.  It takes much practice when drama and anger are directed at you to not get emotional but to be perfectly calm and not let any words effect you in any way. I never give drama back.  I never get angry at the person directing drama at me…I’m always calm. If you are confident in yourself, drama directed at you is meaningless.  Drama directed at you should not change your calm state of mind…that takes much practice and thought.

    So if I lie to a woman and later get drama for the lie it doesn’t affect me at all.  I first give her a warning that I have a low tolerance for drama and if she continues, I next her.  If I’m in a restaurant, I get up, pay the bill and leave her there.  If I’m in my house, I call an Uber and tell her to leave.  Since there are an abundance of women, I could care less if I see her again.  If she sends me nasty texts, I block her phone number.

    Drama directed at me does not make me unhappy.  It doesn’t affect me at all. I just eliminate the source of the load noises and move on.  Since drama is a fact of life, the skill to be acquired is to not let drama directed at you to affect your calm state of mind.

     

  20. “Lying by omission”…what a load of crap. So if you refuse to answer a question you are lying by omission? Or if you are being sarcastic(with a tone of truth as you say yes I fucked three chicks in the morning), you are lying by omission?

    When you refuse to answer, you simply refuse to answer, no lie no truth.

    If you lie to a woman you’ll loose her forever eventually. You don’t care. Then you do the same with the next one. You don’t care. On and on. Your return rate drops significantly. Then you become 60-70 with no pool of women or the least with women your age. Good strategy.

    It’s better if you just say yeah I’m fucking other women. You’ll get no drama, she’ll LSNFTE you, but there is a chance she’ll return some time in the future as she will respect your honesty and your EFA.

    Lying is just stupid. Means you are afraid that you’ll loose the sex prematurely.

     

     

  21. Hey BD,

    I noticed you specifically mentioned Western women when you talked about their anti-poly social programming. In your experience, are non-Western women easier or harder to convince to accept an arrangement like that? The few I’ve met seem to be pretty traditional and looking for a husband, so I don’t think they would be terribly likely to agree to that. What is your take on that?

  22. Seeing them every 10-15 days
    Never ever seeing them on the weekend
    Dialing back slightly on the time spent together after we had sex
    Initiating a bit less to meet them (have them come to me more)
    Sexualizing more by text (for example, an allusion once every 3 texts, instead of once every 5)

    With all of this, I got about 50% less ultimatums compared to the same number of girls on the same period before.

    Correct, you will. You’re simply taking my rules and increasing them. Sure, if you do that, you’ll get less of this behavior from women.

    And for the record, I’m not talking about “ultimatums.” I never get those. I’m talking about women asking about other women. That’s not an ultimatum.

    As I have mentioned before to you that you are lying…you are lying by omission.

    As hey hey already said, refusing to answer a question isn’t lying. “Are you fucking other women?” “I’m not answering that question.” That’s not lying. If you think it is, then you’re arguing that women are utterly stupid, and I don’t believe that.

    drama from women and men is unavoidable

    If you’re talking about MLTRs or above, you’re correct. You have control over the amount of drama, however.

    It takes much practice when drama and anger are directed at you to not get emotional but to be perfectly calm and not let any words effect you in any way.

    That’s a fantastic frame to have and I love it. The two problems I have with it are:

    1. When a woman gives me drama (which is very rare), don’t get emotional and upset either. But I still don’t like it. I’d still she rather be happy, or at least neutral. Happy/neutral is > drama.

    2. In the real world, even the most confident man on planet Earth is going to not like it when the woman he really cares about is screaming at him at the top of her lungs, accusing him of things he’s never done, and/or insulting him. I’m not talking about his emotional reaction or his state of mind; I’m talking about how he feels about it internally. He’s not going to like it.

    In your experience, are non-Western women easier or harder to convince to accept an arrangement like that? The few I’ve met seem to be pretty traditional and looking for a husband, so I don’t think they would be terribly likely to agree to that.

    That’s a huge topic that can’t be answered with a simple comment. The two summary answers are “it depends on the non-Western culture” and “in some non-Western cultures, ‘traditional’ or ‘looking for a husband’ does not equal monogamy.”

    In the puritanical West, particularly in the US and Canada, provider-hunting automatically equals “you must be monogamous, or else you’re not serious about finding someone and you’re a shithead.” Compare that to, say, the Philippines, where women are very ‘traditional’ yet everyone is fucking everyone else constantly over there. Fucking around is accepted, particularly for men. So yes, in some non-Western cultures, women will not discount your possible provider status just because you’re a horny guy getting laid with multiple chicks.

    Again, I’m really simplifying here, so take what I’m saying with a grain of salt.

  23. @BD and @heyhey.  Thanks for your opinions.  Not to beat a dead horse and I’ll leave this topic alone forthwith, but I believe as Mark Twain said in the above referenced:

    “Among other common lies, we have the _silent_ lie–the deception which one conveys by simply
    keeping still and concealing the truth. Many obstinate truth-mongers indulge in this dissipation,
    imagining that if they _speak_ no lie, they lie not at all.”

  24. I always tell them I don’t believe in monogamy when they ask about other women. Some get defensive about it and make it seem like that it is unacceptable in a nice way. Others straight up say that won’t fly and are kind of bitchy about it. And others say “oh” or stay quiet and end up ghosting after they find out.

    I guess my EFA or whatever is off because the ones that have stuck around always make me promise that I will make an exception for them, and then “I agree.” I don’t care after that, since I already told them my position from the get-go. If they think otherwise it’s not my problem.

  25. Its semantics with the lying thing.  I think its better for lying to be defined as speaking falsehoods only, which im guessing it is in the dictionary.

    Both omission and lying can be for anothers benefit or for manipulation and deception.  It always goes back to intent.  Are you benefiting yourself at the detriment of another.  Or saving someone from unneeded pain.  etc.

    Omission can be worse than lying at times.

    In the end, the name doesnt matter, Has your deceptiveness been destructive or not, selfish or not?
    Energy precedes matter, so always look for the energetic truth results.  Constructive/Destructive energy.
    human/truth = good/bad.  More subjective and apart of SP.

  26. Hey Anon-without-a-period, I’m from Ukraine and BD’s system generally works unaltered.

    Hey Dennis, what BD suggests is most definitely not lying by omission. It is, in fact, truth by omission! See, they ask, “Are you seeing other women?” The true answer is yes, the subcommunicated answer is yes, the direct answer is refusal to answer. Where is the lie?

  27. BD, I have two questions.

    1° Do you think there’s a large percentage of women who (at least part of the time and not just very briefly after a breakup) aren’t after something serious in the first place and therefore might go the FB or very low end mltr route with no prior intentions of eventually demanding “the talk” in the first place ? Or are they the exception I shouldn’t expect to meet often ?

    2° Are there rules about how “affectionate” you can afford to be during sex with an FB to avoid conveying a boyfriend vibe ? I rarely ever view sex as “impersonal” and so have a tendency to do it “like a boyfriend” even when it’s 100% casual. (actually I think there’s someone on this blog who said that’s why he sees escorts: “because unlike FBs you can cuddle with them”, he said)

  28. Do you think there’s a large percentage of women who (at least part of the time and not just very briefly after a breakup) aren’t after something serious in the first place and therefore might go the FB or very low end mltr route with no prior intentions of eventually demanding “the talk” in the first place ?

    Actually most Western women under the age of about 27 fall into that category.

    The problem is that they’re women. Even if they have no intention of getting serious with anyone, if they’re at the low end MLTR level or higher, they will start to want it eventually. The act of being in that kind of relationsihp with a man makes them want it even if they initially don’t.

    FBs are different. The Talk is virtually never required for FBs. FBs know they’re FBs and get it. If they like it they stay. If they don’t they LSFNTE. It’s only MLTRs that require this.

    Are there rules about how “affectionate” you can afford to be during sex with an FB to avoid conveying a boyfriend vibe ?

    Yes. Many. No dates. No cuddling after sex. No spending the night. Etc.

    I rarely ever view sex as “impersonal” and so have a tendency to do it “like a boyfriend” even when it’s 100% casual.

    Then you’re in for a lot of drama and problems in your woman life.

    Actually I think there’s someone on this blog who said that’s why he sees escorts: “because unlike FBs you can cuddle with them”, he said

    That’s correct, for him.

    I have absolutely no desire to cuddle with a woman I’m not emotionally attracted to, so I would never cuddle with an escort. That would feel very weird to me. I also don’t cuddle with FBs; I don’t want to. Talk maybe, but not cuddle. But that’s me; all men are different.

    If you’re a complete asshole, you could also cuddle with an FB you absolutely don’t give a shit about. You’d be sending her conflicting signals and end up really hurting her feelings, but if you’re an asshole you probably won’t care. I’m not an asshole this way, so I don’t do this.

  29. You’d be sending her conflicting signals and end up really hurting her feelings

    Damn that’s a big problem. I guess I need to really dissociate sex from emotion. Not easy.

  30. It’s so strange, because I’ve personally never met some of the problems being described here by the other guys. I very rarely need to have the talk, even with women I’m seeing for a long time (>1year). Of course, most of them are just FBs. This is what usually happens:

    1-she gives me drama, I soft next, she gives me drama again, last warning, she resumes to her normal self or gives me more drama, then it’s a hard next;

    2-she next me in a very subtle feminine way. It’s easy to notice signs like when she slowly stops to answer my texts, is never available to meet or begins to be aloof when we’re together;

    3-she meets another guy (beta) who instantly puts her in a serious relationship (cough, facebook status). She keeps seeing me for a while (on the side) then next me when she’s sure the other guy is 100% locked;

    And that’s it. Never got ultimatums or anything close to it. It’s just one of us nexting each other when we don’t agree with what the other part is doing (like BD, they usually come back after a while).

  31. I guess I need to really dissociate sex from emotion.

    No. I never said that. You need to dissociate sex from girlfriend shit. And even then you only need to do that with certain people. 

    I have friendly feelings and emotions towards my FBs, at least some of them. These women are my friends, sometimes very close friends, and I care about them as friends. I don’t care about them as lovers or quasi-girlfriends.

    I very rarely need to have the talk, even with women I’m seeing for a long time (>1year). Of course, most of them are just FBs.

    Correct. As I said, FBs never require The Talk.

  32. BD’s option 4 is always the best way to go – either the sarcastic way, or the absurdist way. I myself prefer the more absurd way:

    Q: are you an axe murderer?

    A: I prefer machetes actually, or anything blade like for that matter

    ————————————————–

    Q: how many girls has that worked on?

    A: has what worked on?

    Q: your pickup line

    A: what pickup line?

    ————————————————–

    Q: are you fucking other girls at the moment?

    A: yes, and boys too

    Refusing to answer can always be associated with guilt, because if you’re not guilty, you would effortlessly deny liability. Option 4 all the way.

  33. Hey BD,

    Let’s say you have “the talk” with a mltr, and she decides that she’s not cool with it and wants to move on (however temporary that may end up being.)  Do you make it a point to verbally state to her that she’s welcome back in the future?

  34. Let’s say you have “the talk” with a mltr, and she decides that she’s not cool with it and wants to move on (however temporary that may end up being.)  Do you make it a point to verbally state to her that she’s welcome back in the future?

    I rarely verbally state it, but I always strongly subcommunicate it. I just nod and smile and tell that I respect her decision and that I’m not upset at all (which is all true). No drama, no anger, no neediness, no begging. That’s all you need to do to ensure she’ll come back. (100% of all the other men she dumped got pissed off or needy.)

  35. Wish i knew about this stuff years ago! Part of me gets mad inside for the things i did now o realised how i screwed up certain things but I’m happy now that i have this knowledge for the future. I used to just lie that’s probably why my relationships these days last 5 to 6 months max.

  36. Hi BD, like kryptokate and lovergirl, there are some women out there who are totally comfortable with the idea of open relationships and actually prefer straight up honesty. What are the cues you look out for to determine whether she’s in this category?

  37. Hi BD, like kryptokate and lovergirl, there are some women out there who are totally comfortable with the idea of open relationships and actually prefer straight up honesty. What are the cues you look out for to determine whether she’s in this category?

    1. That involves screening, and I don’t screen. My entire system revolves around bringing normal, everyday women into long-term nonmonogamous relationships, not screening a pile of women and picking out the ones I think would be “okay” with it.

    And it works. My success rates doing this are sky-high. Of all the women I’ve ever dated, only 2 or 3 off them had prior experience with nonmono relationships. All the rest were “normal” women.

    2. Specifically with regards to women who prefer straight up honesty, A) that would be a very, very, very tiny percentage. Women hate straight up blunt honesty about this stuff right up front. That kind of thing is a masculine communication method, not feminine. B) There are no cues I can think of to indicate such a thing. Even if a woman flat out verbalized “I prefer complete honestly,” she’ll still shit her pants if you blab all this stuff on the first or second date.

  38. “Even though you didn’t verbally answer the question, you did answer it. Your answer was, “Of course I’m having sex with other women, but I’m not talking about it.” She hears it loud and clear (unless she’s retarded or deranged).
    She still may not like that answer, but you’re not answering the question, you’re not lying, and you’re not being deceptive. You’re also avoiding the shock to her SP and ASD, at least as much as possible.”
    You are allowing her to… self-deceive, in other words.
    To know, but do and feel as she doesn’t know, what she doesn’t like to know.
    It’s basic communication science… used by companies, brands, …

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