first date advice, first online date, online dating advice, meaning of an open relationship, alpha male traits

The issue of prostitution is a unique one in the political and social arenas, for several reasons. Let us count the ways! But first, I need to declare my own biases.

My Position on Prostitution

Before we get into the meat, I should be clear regarding my personal biases on this issue:

1. I think all prostitution should be 100% legal, across the board, as long as you’re talking about consenting, legal adults. It’s absolutely none of the government’s business who you’re having sex with (as long as they’re all consenting, legal adults), how you’re having that sex, or what other arrangements you have around that sex, financial or otherwise. The fact that anyone can, with a straight face, state that private sexual matters between consenting, legal adults are within the purview of the bureaucracy of the government is loony in the extreme, and perhaps one of the best examples of purely false Societal Programming on overdrive.

2. I have never had sex with a working prostitute in my life. I have no interest in doing so in the future.

3. I have never directly paid cash-for-sex in my entire life (with the exception of a few temporary sugar daddy experiments I ran).

4. My entire dating system is based around getting sex for as little money spent as possible. I think the concept of paying a woman for sex (either directly or via paying for expensive dates) is utterly insane, considering the fact that women like sex just as much or more than men do. “Here’s $300 so I can show you a bunch of attention, make you feel good, and make you cum.”

Huh? How the hell does that make sense? If women hated sex then that might be a valid thing to do, but this is clearly not the case.

That being said, I don’t judge others for paying for sex or, in certain scenarios, paying for higher dating expenses to have sex, and I do admit that if you’re a high-income guy with a very busy schedule, it may make more sense to pay prostitutes or sugar babies directly or indirectly for sex rather than taking the time and effort to learn and practice game. The same perhaps goes if you’re an extremely old or ugly guy who can’t get sex with cute hotties any other way.

5. As my income has gone up, the more lenient I’ve become on this money spending issue. I may be even more lenient on it in the future as my income further increases and as I get older. I will admit that I’ve spent a little more money on women in general over the last few years than I did in previous years when my income was lower and I was much more of a financial cheapass. Don’t get me wrong, I’m still a huge, frugal cheapass, in all areas of my life, but I have to admit I’ve relaxed a little as I’ve gotten older.

Alright, now onto they key points of this article.

Prostitution Will Never Be Legal In the US

That’s right. Never.

It will remain legal in places like Europe and Asia, and perhaps increase in those areas. It will also remain legal in little pockets of the US, like rural Nevada. But prostitution will never be across the board legal in the US like it is in some other countries, and this is despite the fact the left-wing has already won the culture war.

They say never say never? I’m saying never.

Why? Because prostitution is one of the few issues where right-wingers and left-wingers (mostly left-wing women) agree.

Right-wingers, in all their fiery, traditional, out-of-date, puritanical slut-shaming glory, think prostitution is immoral, disgusting, depraved, and creates a culture of sluts. Oh no! Sluts! We can’t have those!

Left-wing women view prostitution as an even bigger evil than the right-wingers. They view hookers, particularly younger attractive ones, as competition. Hookers (usually) don’t need to be wined or dined or taken out on dates. They don’t need to be promised monogamy, marriage, or girlfriend status. They don’t need to be given gifts or even treated nicely. Nope. They just fuck guys as long as some money changes hands, no fuss, mo muss, no other requirements, and no questions asked. “Aw HELL no!” left-wing women scream, “We can’t have this!”

Married women are particularly terrified of prostitution. Whenever the topic of legalizing it comes up, they take a spastic nosedive into the 2% Rule and say things like, “What if a married guy has sex with a bunch of hookers without wearing a condom and then gives his wife an STD?!?” No, prostitution must remain illegal, left-wing values be damned.

Regardless, people aren’t stupid. Everyone, right and left alike, know deep down that having something like sex, that A) everyone loves, B) is a highly personal matter and C) most everyone gives away for free because they love it, suddenly becoming a governmental crime if you pay for it, is crazy. Especially considering that paying cash-for-sex suddenly becomes legal again if you point a camera at it and call it “porn.”

People know this, but it doesn’t matter. The entrenched interests of both the right and the left (and again, it’s mostly left-wing women) will ensure that prostitution will never become legal in US despite the fact that the political left has already soundly won the culture war over the conservatives.

Dumb.

When Prostitution Is Legal

Prostitution being legal is a very good thing for men, even for men who never use prostitutes. I know for a fact that in cities or countries where prostitution is legal and common, normal non-prostitute women generally have less ASD, have sex with men faster, and don’t demand as much time or extravagant dates pre-sex. This is because they know that if they don’t put out fast, that potential boyfriend, provider, or husband will just shrug, leave, and go nail a hooker, who in many cases will be hotter and/or younger than her(!).

You will see a similar dynamic in countries where prostitution is illegal while still being an accepted societal norm and essentially decriminalized. Some parts of Asia come to mind.

On the flip side, in places where prostitution is both illegal and heavily criminalized by the police, normal women are free to throw up as much ASD and pre-sex demands as they like, knowing their primary competition are other ASD women instead of hookers.

For example, I live in a part of the country where cops do indeed crack down on prostitution. Hookers are given a slap on the wrist, but pimps, madams, and other such brokers (“procurers”) are given huge prison sentences, even for first time offenses. I’ve met a few of these people and they’re constantly paranoid about getting caught, whereas individual escorts are free to set up web sites advertising their services without much worry.

How Sugar Daddy Sites Fit Into All This

The sugar daddy stuff further complicates this. I could be wrong, but most likely the sugar daddy site phenomenon will end up one of two ways in the near future, both of them bad.

The first possible scenario, and perhaps the one most likely of the two, is that left-wing women will catch onto this trend and their heads will explode. Hating to see hordes of super hot, super young women ready to fuck even gameless betas as long as they throw down a few hundred bucks, these women are going to declare that sugar daddy sites/services are “prostitution” (which they technically are). They will scream to the latest Obama/Hillary/Bernie in charge of the country, and with a stroke of an authoritarian pen, sugar daddy sites will become illegal.

This won’t make them go away of course. Left-wingers and right-wingers don’t understand that making something illegal doesn’t make it go away (lefties screaming about guns and righties screaming about pot). So just like pot used to be (before it was made legal in many states) and like guns will be soon (when the lefties in charge make them illegal or virtually illegal, which they will), the sugar babies will simply go underground and continue doing business. This will force the price of sugar babies upwards, as well as threaten men who have sex with them, who can and will be sent to jail, more so that those “poor, innocent, young women.” American and Canadian’s bizarre and unique disgust for older men with younger women will ensure the older men will be facing more criminal charges than the young women.

The second possible scenario, which is also likely, is pretty much the opposite. This is if sugar daddy game isn’t rendered illegal and instead goes mainstream. Normal girls will start seeing some of their girlfriends get hundreds or even thousands of dollars just by having the same sex they’d have anyway. Non-sugar baby girls will start to adopt this model, or mutated variations of it. So you’ll be a normal guy on a normal date with a normal girl from a normal dating site like Match.com or OKCupid, and when you pitch to have her come over to your place, she’ll say, “Sure! How about $300? That’s what my girlfriend gets.”

Yikes. Cold chill down my spine.

I have no idea which one of these will happen. I just have a strong feeling that because of Americans’ strong and insane anti-prostitution Societal Programming, this sugar daddy party will be coming to end at some point. Though I could always be wrong.

“All” Women Are Prostitutes?

It’s been said, not by me but by many others, that “all” women are prostitutes. The women we call prostitutes are the ones that demand direct payment of cash for sex. The women who demand cash paid to a restaurant or bar for sex are called normal. The women who demand cash paid to restaurants, grocery stores, and clothing stores on a regular basis for sex are called girlfriends. The women who demand their bills paid and their kids taken care of for sex (at least for a while before they get bored) are called wives.

Regardless, the saying goes, all of these women are prostitutes. The only women who aren’t prostitutes are the ones who have sex with you for no payment at all, because they love sex. Right-wingers have a word for that type of woman that I won’t use, because I love these women and want more of them in society, not less. (If you’d like to see a great speech on this topic, Johnny Soporno has a great one here.)

Do I believe this? Only somewhat. To say that all women are prostitutes might be technically correct but it’s also an oversimplification. This doesn’t account for the fact that as men, we have strong protective, paternal instincts. We like to take care of people. When I really care for one special woman, I want to take care of her, to a degree at least. It’s a masculine trait. I don’t view this as her being a prostitute, because I want to take care of her. Granted, most beta males and even many high-income Alpha Male 1.0s way overdo this, and it’s a huge problem that damages all men. But to a degree wanting to take care of one special woman in your life I think is okay as long as you don’t go crazy. It may even be healthy for your masculinity.

Prostitution and You

If you prefer paying hookers or sugar babies for sex, that’s fine. I would suggest that you probably don’t want to live in the United States for the long-term future, because our culture and government frown on that stuff and may be cracking down more on this soon.

If you’re a guy like me who prefers to get laid for free or near-free using a specific dating system like mine, that’s also fine. Have at it and make sure you put all that money you save into your investments where they belong (or to pay off debt if you have any).

If you’re an older guy or a higher-income guy and find yourself in-between these two extremes, that’s okay too. Just don’t go beta and start slathering women with money and/or support (unless you are truly wealthy and completely debt free and it doesn’t harm your long-term finances to do so).

What does the future hold? Again, I’m not sure, but I’ll end with a little story.

A while back I went out on a first date with a smoking-hot, perfect-10 woman in her early 20s whose last boyfriend was in his 60s. Yes, he was in his 60s. The catch? He was extremely wealthy and once a week he’d transfer $1000 into her checking account. This was on top of various other “gifts” and “helping out.” She drove a Mercedes and lived in an expensive high-rise apartment despite having no job and being a full-time student. She lived like this for a year before she dumped him.

Being accustomed to this behavior from a “boyfriend” (more accurately, a John) she expected this kind of thing from me as well. I’m sure you can guess what I told her. She was upset that she went on all these dates with all these men who not willing to pay her $1000 a week. Like, OMG. What the hell is wrong with men? Truthfully and in all seriousness, this was her attitude. She was actually confused that men wouldn’t pay her $1000 a week in order to date her.

Why did she break up with him if she had such a great deal? I saved that for last, because it’s so astounding. She found out that while dating her, he was secretly giving three other women $1000 a week also. He was “cheating” on her (her words). She actually felt hurt and violated(!). So she dumped him. Now she’s going to spend the rest of her life looking for another guy to pay her $1000 a week to give him something other hot girls will give him for free, and being furious if she can’t find such a man (which, in her town, she may not).

As this practice becomes more common and as ripoff college tuition prices continue to skyrocket and as the economy continues to slowly worsen, is this a sign of things to come?

You tell me.

88 Comments on “Prostitution

  1. I found this poll on legalizing prostitution and while the no’s only win 48-46, and Democrats are more supportive than Republicans, you’re 100% right on women opposing it. 57% of women said no (42% said strongly no) while 59% of men said yes.

    Isn’t it amazing how much people care what other people do with their own bodies?

  2. is this a sign of things to come?

    Yes, and I think we’re a bit ahead of you here, probably because we don’t have the same conservative undercurrent that the US has, you know how liberal Australia is from your visit here.

    Prostitution Will Never Be Legal In the US

    Independent High class escorts (HCE’s) there are ‘legal’ and always will be. It’s a loophole. As long as you’re not explicitly giving a woman money for sex, you’re ok. Only the wealthy can afford HCE’s though. It’s all completely legal here, and frankly my wife would prefer I use them over dating, sometimes I do, she’s worried ‘civilian’ girls will catch feelings while a pro won’t, which is untrue, pro’s are people too and have wanted me to leave her for them, but I digress.

    Anytime I have visited one, even though it’s completely legal here, there has been no explicit discussion along the lines of “I am going to pay you x for <list of sex acts>”, nowadays the ‘girlfriend experience’ is the most common anyway, so you show up, hand her the money, and then it’s a fairly natural flow, you’ll already know what she does and doesn’t do from her ads anyway, even if not explicitly through code words.

    There is essentially no distinction between this and traditional sugar dating EXCEPT that she’s on the clock, so you’re paying for her time. As long as both parties are careful what they say and explicitly agree to, it’s perfectly legal there just like SB game.

    They will scream to the latest Obama/Hillary/Bernie in charge of the country, and with a stroke of an authoritarian pen, sugar daddy sites will become illegal.

    Firstly sugar daddying and the aforementioned form of prostitution will NEVER become illegal. It’s simply impossible, because doing so and prosecuting someone for the crime would set a precedent that would make all men and women guilty of it because ‘all women are prostitutes’ is ‘technically correct’ in your own words, and technically correct is what matters when it comes to the law.

    As for the sites themselves they could be made illegal in their CURRENT FORM. Although if you study the sites closely you’ll realize that the language used is very well chosen. It would be very hard to make these sites illegal without making ALL dating sites illegal and even if they found some way to do it, the sites army of lawyers would just modify their wording and marketing and become ‘regular’ dating sites ‘wink, wink’.

    The second possible scenario, which is also likely, is pretty much the opposite. This is if sugar daddy game isn’t rendered illegal and instead goes mainstream. Normal girls will start seeing some of their girlfriends get hundreds or even thousands of dollars just by having the same sex they’d have anyway. Non-sugar baby girls will start to adopt this model, or mutated variations of it. So you’ll be a normal guy on a normal date with a normal girl from a normal dating site like Match.com or OKCupid, and when you pitch to have her come over to your place, she’ll say, “Sure! How about $300? That’s why my girlfriend gets.”

    This will happen, provided the market conditions allow for it (supply/demand), and is already happening to some extent here. Around 20% of the 9+/10 women I match on Tinder are also on the sugardating sites. Girls on dating sites have outright asked me for cash for dates.

    One girl I slept with once from tinder for free (who wasn’t on the SD sites) asked me how much I was willing to pay to meet up again despite how much she enjoyed it, despite making her cum, despite treating her to a great night with drinks, dinner afterwards, a jacuzzi etc. Her mentality was, “Yes, that was all great, but I can get all of that with a guy who’s just as good looking as you, just as good in bed, treats me to all that stuff too AND pays me, so if I can get that why wouldn’t I?”, and she has a point if the market allows for it, she’d be stupid not to.

    This is where the market plays a huge part. I opted not to pay her and found a better deal with another girl, one who wasn’t asking for cash, but as the girl gets higher up the looks scale/10 you’ll find her value is higher and higher so she’ll flat out ask for this knowing that she can get it, and I’m seeing this scenario you mentioned play out in real time here with the hottest women.

    Another experience I had, meeting an 18yo girl for a date who lost her virginity with a much older ‘George Clooney’ type guy for cash/gifts when she was 17yo (legal here) no less. When I met her he was the only guy she’d ever been with. Now what kind of precedent does that set in her mind? When her first time was with a guy who PAID her, and continued doing so throughout their relationship. This is becoming more and more common.

    She found out that while dating her, he was secretly giving three other women $1000 a week also. He was “cheating” on her (her words).

    Hahahahaha! And that is EXACTLY the same story the 18yo told me and the reason she broke it off with ‘George Clooney’. Hahaha nothing new under the sun, these girls are all the same.

    She was upset that she went on all these dates with all these men who not willing to pay her $1000 a week. Like, OMG. What the hell is wrong with men?

    Was she Australian by any chance? 😉 I kid. I have had that exact same situation happen so many times here though. The last one was a 10/10 tall, blonde, supermodel. Absolute stunner. She demanded $1500 a week AND the guy also had to be <40, taller than her, good looking and cool/confident ie. Alpha Fux, Alpha Bux.

    The positive of all this is it becomes insanely easy for wealthy guys. If you earn $200 an hour for example, it’s now easier than ever and CHEAPER to get laid than it ever was. Some of these girls will have sex with you for hours, sometimes multiple times a week for a new pair of $300 shoes and won’t ask for any of your time for dates etc. For a guy who earns alot I don’t think sex has ever been cheaper if you factor in your dating time trying to get it for ‘free’, time is money.

    What motivation is there to take a girl out on 3 dates, potentially 6 hours+ of your time when you know you can just slap down $300 and be inside her within 10 minutes? And this is a question that more and more high value guys are going to be asking themselves as this trend continues.

  3. Is there any data in countries where prostitution is legal that shows more people have/get STD’s from it being legal? I think that is really scary because I think it being illegal deters most guys from it. I mean, if a prostitute bangs six guys in one day, who knows, these guys might have some kind of catchy plague that they could give her? Or if a guy bangs a few different prostitutes in one day and they’ve each already been with a few different guys earlier in the day? This could go on and on; and then maybe he or she has a steady boyfriend/girlfriend that they are going home to. And there’s no way to know if either person has anything catchy. Using condoms doesn’t help for every STD because there are some things that are caught from just skin-on-skin contact.

    I know people will argue the 2% rule, but everyone I know, myself included, except for one friend, has/has had at least one STD before. People don’t always know that they have something for awhile. Guys especially will have something and notice it and just brush it off as nothing! In my experience, guys are very irresponsible about this kind of stuff. Then after it’s too late and the plague has been spread, they’ll say something like, “I admit I noticed something, but I just thought it was nothing or I just thought it was a zit.” Girls in my opinion, at least in my group of peers, are very particular and notice every little thing and are very quick to seek medical help when they notice something is wrong with them. And it’s usually always us girls who notice it and have to speak up and confront our guys about what is going on when we notice a problem. Guys never take responsibility for this in my experience. I hate to say this but I almost feel like since some guys refuse to go to the doctor to get tested that they think, “Hmm, I’ll just start banging this girl and then if she doesn’t catch anything from me then it means I don’t have any STD’s.”

  4. Totally agree it should be legal between 2 consenting adults.  Who gives a shit if 2 people want to exchange sex for money?  What a waste of police resources to go after this type of “crime”.  The only thing they should worry about are any underage prostitutes or anyone forced into sex slavery.

    This country is still very puritanical when it comes to sex and nudity, no matter how “progressive” we think we’ve become.

  5. I’m on the fence about prostitution.  I don’t have any moral objections to actual, consenting adults engaging in exchanging sex for money, if they so desire.  However, very often, women who are actually prostitutes are not doing it of their own free will.  They are bullied, coerced or drugged into it.  Many times they are treated poorly and see very little of their “profit,” which actually goes to abusive pimps.

    Legalizing prostitution makes it much easier for people to get away with human trafficking, which is modern day slavery at its worst.  It allows very young girls to be tricked into a life that is ultimately destroying her soul and joy in life.

    While most women enjoy sex just as much as men, we don’t enjoy it with men we are not attracted to.  I’ve tried a few times to keep having sex with someone who was giving me gifts or money that I was not that attracted to and I just couldn’t do it.  The Sugar Daddy dream is not all its cracked up to be.  As a woman, having sex with a man that is unattractive is just repulsive and not as easy as it sounds.

     

  6. Is there any data in countries where prostitution is legal that shows more people have/get STD’s from it being legal?

    The chances of getting a serious STD/STI from legal and properly regulated prostitution is minuscule, you’d have a better chance of winning the Lotto. The girls get tested once a month with a screening that screens for everything, even stuff you’ve never heard of, and the use of condoms is a requirement for it to be legal. Having sex with a prostitute without it would be illegal.

    Using condoms doesn’t help for every STD because there are some things that are caught from just skin-on-skin contact.

    Like what? Herpes? There’s a high probability you already carry one type of herpes, even if you’ve never had sex or a break out before, and the more partners you’ve had it almost becomes a guarantee. Regular STD/STI tests don’t even bother screening for it. HPV? Again, unless you’re vaccinated you most likely have/have had it.

    As for the other stuff you can get while wearing a condom, it’s all extremely unlikely, but gonorrhea and chlamydia are easily cured by antibiotics. As for the serious stuff HIV, Hep, Syphilis etc. you’d have to be the unluckiest person alive.

    In a jurisdiction where prostitution is legal and regulated, and coming from a man who has been with plenty of both and has even been in a relationship with a pro, I assure you, it’s the ‘normal’ girls you really have to worry about catching something from. The pro’s are serious about their health, it’s their livelihood, without it they are no longer legally able to practice their profession. As for the ‘normal’ girls, many of them are surprised when you put on a condom ‘What are you doing? You don’t have to use that!?’…

    Legalizing prostitution makes it much easier for people to get away with human trafficking

    No, it’s the opposite. When prostitution is legal it’s regulated, licensed and strictly enforced. Human trafficking, pimping, and coercing women into doing things they don’t want to do is NOT legal prostitution, and the authorities will come down hard on that and end it quickly.

    It leaves very little room in the market for it too, why risk going to prison as a client when you can go to a legal establishment instead? To save $50? Maybe some are crazy enough to risk that, but not likely.

    The simple fact of the matter is there are soooooo many women out there ready to prostitute themselves willingly, there is just no need to traffick or coerce anyone, just like legal porn. For some it’s even a fantasy, they get off on it and ENJOY it.

    And these women do have the right to refuse service to a client if they are repulsed by them, I’ve heard plenty of first hand accounts from girls who did just that.

    Ultimately though it’s about the money, and for $500 an hour, its surprising what some girls are willing to do, and $500 an hour is far from exploitation.

  7. Hey BD, another awesome article….

    Given the fact that we live in a Capitalists society…in which Greed and Jealousy is inherent. Wouldn’t it then only make natuarl sense for a women to be Materialistic and leverage her only one true ASSet for a man’s asset.

    We already know that jealousy is built in a woman’s nature… how then can she resist the natural urge not to be jealous when she see other women. who with the same ASSets as hers, have more than she has and the vice-versa serves true as well. Meaning, she will always want to one up the next chick (to prove she has social staus, i.e.. name brand stuff).

    Lastly, given these facts…one must conclude that “All” women are indeed prostitutes. This is to address the last paragraph of that titled section, where you state. “To say that all women are prostitutes might be technically correct but it’s also an oversimplification… and … I don’t view this as her being a prostitute, because I want to take care of her.”

    Isn’t this delusional or at best, a state of denial on your part… due in part to your own socialization, coupled with your emotional EGO’s need to idealize or romantize the relationship…or as some would say…place the pussy on a pedastal.

    My purpose here is not to criticize or disagree with you but to find clarity through reality.

    Thank you…

  8. “The positive of all this is it becomes insanely easy for wealthy guys. If you earn $200 an hour for example, it’s now easier than ever and CHEAPER to get laid than it ever was. Some of these girls will have sex with you for hours, sometimes multiple times a week for a new pair of $300 shoes and won’t ask for any of your time for dates etc. For a guy who earns alot I don’t think sex has ever been cheaper if you factor in your dating time trying to get it for ‘free’, time is money.

    What motivation is there to take a girl out on 3 dates, potentially 6 hours+ of your time when you know you can just slap down $300 and be inside her within 10 minutes? And this is a question that more and more high value guys are going to be asking themselves as this trend continues.”

    Exactly this. The more I’ve used escorts, and I’ve just been hiring mid-tiers, the more I’d rather focus on my business.

  9. Your story.

    1000$ a week for a perfect-10 *GIRLFRIEND* is a pretty good deal for a wealthy 60+ guy.

    In poorer countries (like say russia) the price for top notch pussy is about $10 000 month plus car payments and top area rent for her. Here in south america ex-beauty queens in their 20s get a no-show job for live for beeing with a senator for a few years for example. 3-4 years with the old dude and she will have a ~1K/month no-show job for the rest of her life. Not bad, isnt it?

    They are not prostitutes but instead “high maintainance girl friends” and i do understand the girl in your story did feel unhappy when she found out he had others. She was perhaps hoping for marriage and then a quick death (his) so she could get all his money at some point. For only 1000/week she would not waste her few prime years.

    Prostitutes of the same quality range will ask 300-500$ per hour. You will have to deal with the fact she has had sex the hour before you came and will keep having sex with other dudes when you leave. Unless you pay her for the whole night. What might cost you several 1000s. 10-type girls in their prime often make way more than 10K/month, make no mistake – this is real business.

    In addition the sex you get from a prostitute is not the same sex you get from a girlfriend or fuckbuddy who likes you. It is not the same level AT ALL. They can be pretty decent actresses but at the end of the fuck it is just work for them and you can feel the difference. The better a girl can cover her true feelings towards her clients, the more money she will make. Dudes pay a lot more for the illusion of having such a hot girlfriend than they pay for a quick release.

     

     

  10. “In addition the sex you get from a prostitute is not the same sex you get from a girlfriend or fuckbuddy who likes you. It is not the same level AT ALL. They can be pretty decent actresses but at the end of the fuck it is just work for them and you can feel the difference.”

    This can be true. The difference in feeling. Which is why I’m an advocate for both.

    I don’t get the either/or stance.

    But also if you’re going into prostitution expecting to find someone to fall in love with, then LOL.

  11. Also keep in mind, escorts (I say escorts cuz they’re the ones I hire. When I think of prostitutes, I think of the grungy street hookers. There’s definitely a difference. And I find that most people think of them mainly as well when they just use the word “prostitute”) — escorts are people too. You can tell when they like you or not. So having game helps. It’s also why it’s not an either/or “learn game” or “just pay for sex” matter either.

    But also if you’ve ever had a job, it’s just like how you treat some people nicer because for whatever reasons you like them more than others.

  12. it’s the ‘normal’ girls you really have to worry about catching something from. The pro’s are serious about their health, it’s their livelihood, without it they are no longer legally able to practice their profession. As for the ‘normal’ girls, many of them are surprised when you put on a condom ‘What are you doing? You don’t have to use that!?’…..

    Alot of guys don’t care what harm they cause you and they are only want to fulfill their own interests. They’ll put your health at risk instead of being honest, going to the doctor and waiting to get better first. They want to use us as their guinea pig, because to them it’s apparently a lot less scary than going to the doctor. And I’m only referring to the ones that admit after the fact that they noticed something wasn’t right, but brushed it off as nothing because they were too nervous to visit the doctor or they were too lazy to do it.

    Well it’s good to hear legal prostitutes have required testing; and they should for their own safety, but that’s only half of it. Too bad nobody can control the guys’ side of things. I guess it could just be a coincidence but in my experience, it is always the guys that say: “What? We don’t need to use condoms!?” and the girls who value their health. So again, opposite in my personal experience…..and they will push to get their way that’s for sure!

    Lovergirl has a good point. Women do enjoy sex when it’s with someone they want to be with, not someone they are not attracted to or some stranger they might not be safe with. But of course, the women who are prostitutes for a living know up-front that’s part of the deal. They’re gonna have to bang a lot of guys they would never otherwise do that with as a trade-off for the cash. But like she said, the ones who have been threatened into prostitution and don’t want to be in that situation of their own free will……I can’t imagine what an awful hell that would be!

  13. I’m not sure getting tested “once a month” when you are a prostitute is really very helpful in preventing against std’s.  I mean, if you are having sex with several guys a day, then who knows when you contracted something?  Maybe the guy she fucked yesterday, or earlier today, had something.  Even with the use of condoms, it is doubtful they are being used for oral.  Having once contracted chlamydia in my throat, I can tell you it is a real possibility.

    I was just reading an article on the brothels in Nevada and these women may be tested and all that, but they are giving 50% of their profits to the people they are working for, PLUS paying rent.  On top of that they have to sleep with handicapped guys, ugly guys, old guys…. I’m not sure that’s such a great deal, especially given the risks.

    If I suspect a guy has gone to prostitutes it is right up there with fear of guys who have slept with trannies or gay men.  They are just exposing themselves to a lot of risk, even if they take supposed “precautions”. This is coming from someone who probably takes more risks than most!

    One of the guys I have slept with in the past, recently asked me about giving him a “nuru massage”.  I’m like wtf is that?  He said it involved rubbing him down with oil.  So I looked it up and its something an escort in the area provides (saw it on backpage).  That gave me a real pause.  Like, do I ever want to sleep with this man again?

     

  14. Democrats are more supportive than Republicans

    Correct, but you need to read your own poll more carefully. Those are Democrat men. More men were polled than women, so the Democrat men (the majority of Democrats in the poll) say legalize while their Democrat wives and GFs say hell no.

    Left-wing men get it; this is one of the issues where I agree with them completely. Right-wing men and left-wing women are the problems here.

    As long as you’re not explicitly giving a woman money for sex, you’re ok.

    That’s my point; you’re okay for the moment. One possibility, as I stated, is that the sugar daddy stuff makes this stuff more mainstream which tips women off to this and rubs it in their face, then they scream, then a crackdown begins. I don’t know if this will happen; I just know it’s a possilbity.

    Firstly sugar daddying and the aforementioned form of prostitution will NEVER become illegal.

    WRONG. It absolutely can.

    It’s simply impossible, because doing so and prosecuting someone for the crime would set a precedent that would make all men and women guilty of it because ‘all women are prostitutes’ is ‘technically correct’ in your own words, and technically correct is what matters when it comes to the law.

    Yeah, you’re making guy-logical sense and I agree with you 100%, but that’s not how the goverment works. Last time I checked pot is still illegal in much of the US even though pretty much everyone admits having something like that illegal doesn’t make sense in any universe.

    Government doesn’t make rational sense.

    One girl I slept with once from tinder for free (who wasn’t on the SD sites) asked me how much I was willing to pay to meet up again despite how much she enjoyed it, despite making her cum, despite treating her to a great night with drinks, dinner afterwards, a jacuzzi etc. Her mentality was, “Yes, that was all great, but I can get all of that with a guy who’s just as good looking as you, just as good in bed, treats me to all that stuff too AND pays me, so if I can get that why wouldn’t I?”

    Yuck! Yeah, that’s the other scenario I’m worried about.

    It’s a lose-lose situation here. Either it becomes illegal (stupid) or normal women start demanding money for sex (stupid).

    What motivation is there to take a girl out on 3 dates, potentially 6 hours+ of your time when you know you can just slap down $300 and be inside her within 10 minutes?

    Correct, by my answer to that is: “Buy Blackdragon’s books so it only takes 3 hours of your time instead of 6+ like a normal chode.”

    Is there any data in countries where prostitution is legal that shows more people have/get STD’s from it being legal?

    I’m sure there are many STD prostitution studies but I have not read them.

    I mean, if a prostitute bangs six guys in one day, who knows, these guys might have some kind of catchy plague that they could give her?

    Two types of hookers:

    There are streetwalkers, who are STD-riddled, and professionals, who are extremely careful about STD tests and condom usage,  and won’t even give a man oral sex (or even receive oral sex) unless a condom or dental dam is used. So the second category is actually very safe. It’s the first category that’s the problem.

    This country is still very puritanical when it comes to sex and nudity, no matter how “progressive” we think we’ve become.

    CORRECT. It’s the one oddball thing about the US. A bunch of left-wingers who still hold onto that strain of purtiancialism.

    I’ve said before that on the issues of A) older men with much younger women and B) prostitution, most American left-wingers instantly transform into conservative Republicans.

    It’s so funny. (And sad.)

    However, very often, women who are actually prostitutes are not doing it of their own free will.  They are bullied, coerced or drugged into it.  Many times they are treated poorly and see very little of their “profit,” which actually goes to abusive pimps. Legalizing prostitution makes it much easier for people to get away with human trafficking, which is modern day slavery at its worst.

    Assault, coercion, theft, and slavery are already illegal. No need to add more laws where the existing laws already apply.

    I’ve tried a few times to keep having sex with someone who was giving me gifts or money that I was not that attracted to and I just couldn’t do it.  The Sugar Daddy dream is not all its cracked up to be.

    Sugar babies only fuck guys they are attracted to. If you’re fat and gross a sugar baby won’t touch you no matter how much you pay her.

    It’s hookers who will fuck anyone who pays.

    When prostitution is legal it’s regulated, licensed and strictly enforced.

    Ah, now this is where I disagree with left-wingers again. I’m not a leftie, I’m a libertarian, so I don’t want it regulated or licensed in any way by the government. I want it legal, and I want the free market to figure out the details. Keep the fucking government out of it.

    Trust me, if prostitution was A) legal and B) completely free-market, eventually people wouldn’t be getting STDs and human trafficking wouldn’t be a problem (again, things like slavery and theft would still be illegal and punishable via government).

  15. Given the fact that we live in a Capitalists society

    Actually we live in a corporatist society, not a capitalist one, but I get your meaning.

    I would love to live in a capitalist society; too bad there aren’t any in the world right now.

    Isn’t this delusional or at best, a state of denial on your part

    Why?

    due in part to your own socialization, coupled with your emotional EGO’s need to idealize or romantize the relationship…or as some would say…place the pussy on a pedastal.

    I’m not sure how anyone could say I want to romanticize anything or to put any pussy on a pedestal, nor have I done that in any way with any woman (since I was beta that is, but that was almost 10 years ago).

    And no, these desires are biological, not societal. Have have natural biological urges to protect and take care of, to some degree. It goes back to when we were cavemen.

    But if you’re saying we shouldn’t throw money at women or kiss their asses, dude, you’re already preaching to the choir if you’re talking to me.

    i do understand the girl in your story did feel unhappy when she found out he had others. She was perhaps hoping for marriage and then a quick death (his) so she could get all his money at some point.

    No, I could see it in her eyes as I talked to her about it (we talked at length). She was truly hurt, truly liked this guy, and felt cheated on.

    Insane.

    the sex you get from a prostitute is not the same sex you get from a girlfriend or fuckbuddy who likes you. It is not the same level AT ALL. They can be pretty decent actresses but at the end of the fuck it is just work for them and you can feel the difference.

    YES. That was one of my big problems when I was messing around with the sugar daddy sites. Not all the women behaved that way, but many did, and man, it was a massive turnoff for me.

    The last time I had sex with a woman who clearly didn’t want to be there as when I was married. 🙂

  16. Good topic and you have some interesting thoughts on the possible future. Maybe because I don’t venture off into the extreme corners of our culture, but I really don’t know too many left wing women who are all that against prostitution being legal. I think they see it as part of a woman’s right to choose. And at least hookers place some kind of a value on their sexuality, unlike women who give it away for free.

    As for me, I’m fine with prostitution and I don’t consider prostitutes as any kind of competition. When you make yourself the type of woman that a guy is so hooked on that he’s willing to put in time, effort, and investment in, there’s no reason for him to go to a hooker.

  17. Prostitution is illegal because, in the long run, it is by far the cheapest way for the ordinary man to get laid.  And women know this and want to keep their monopoly going as it extorts gallons of money from men into their pockets, as opposed to men freely giving ounces of money to prostitutes for the same commodity.  And they pressure the in power white knights to support their monopoly.  Follow the money – it always leads to the truth.

  18. Fyi, a lot of places where prostitution is ‘legalized’ it is actually worse for the prostitutes. As it isn’t actually legalized. Read up on the Swedish model. It is pretty bad deal for prostitutes. (Esp the anti pimping laws. Have a guy drive you over to your client as a prostitute? Congratulations, you now have a pimp. The reports of police just looking for excuses to label somebody as a pimp are legion. Even in European countries that think they have it legalized. I heard reports of boyfriends being supported by their prostitute girlfriends getting arrested as pimps, when the guy was just a boyfriend nothing more).

    There is a reason amnesty international is pro legalization and anti swedish model. Research has shown this reduces sexual trafficking, abuse (by both criminals and police and gov), reduces stigma, and keeps std rates down. (Some feminists groups were in an uproar about amnesty of course).

    One of my friends is a prostitute. And well, seems that world is a lot different then you would think. (For example, pimps, mostly a myth, sex traffickers(*) as well). She pointed me at this blog: http://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/ might be interesting to read more about it. (Maggie Mcneill is a prostitute and pro prostitution activist). She (and other prostitutes) really hate it when people deny them their agency. (When people say they don’t to it out of their free will). It should warm your libertarian heart (prostitution is actually a nice example of an antifragile profession, if you have ever read that theory).

    Remember when you ask a prostitute if she likes her job, or rather would do something else, and she confirms that she would, this means little. Same happens to normal office drones. But being an office drone/prostitute does pay the bills. In that way both the drone and prostitute are not doing it out of their own free will. (I assume both would love to just sit at home and get free money for nothing). And yes, prostitutes also sleep with ugly and handicapped people, it is a job. Not all of them might, but there is a demand and a supply for it. Just like any other job. Some prostitutes find it easy to do, others not so much. Just like some people find it easy to be a daytrader, and others go crazy.

    The American market vs the market of the rest of the world is pretty strange, I heard. Americans have a very specific beauty standard. I heard that the European/Asian market has a smaller focus on youth, broader beauty standards, and even ageing prostitutes can earn a living on it.

    And if you really want to read something scary, try to find information about the rescue industry. Where women get ‘saved’ from their ‘pimps’, and re-educated. I won’t spoil the surprise. Just a hint, mix government, and puritanical teachings and a hint of I think Christian religion.

    *: According to some anti prostitution people, every year 100.000 girls between 8 and 18 get forced into sexual slavery in the USA. Just think of how crazy that number is. That means in total when you grow up, 1 million of the people of your age (1o years, 100k per year) are sex slaves now. It is the Satanist panic all over again. Of course, nobody can find these sex slaves, nor can anybody find all the paedophiles who actually make these people sex slaves. But that doesn’t stop the media talking about it.

    > It’s hookers who will fuck anyone who pays.

    That depends on the hooker. Just like any normal profession, they can always refuse to deal with a client. And I think most even do. (A lot of clients of hookers are big time wasters, or constant hagglers, and I well you should fire those clients).

    > Even with the use of condoms, it is doubtful they are being used for oral.

    There is even a specific term for only offering protected oral. (I don’t maintain a glossary like BD, so I cannot give it to you), but I assure you some hookers will not consider unprotected oral.

    My apologies if I’m rambling a little bit. Comments can be a bit unstructured, and hard to make coherent. And English isn’t my first language.

  19. I really don’t know too many left wing women who are all that against prostitution being legal.

    If they actually had to go into a voting booth and vote legal prostitution up or down, I think you’d be surprised. I’d bet $10,000 of my own money that most of them would vote it down.

    When you make yourself the type of woman that a guy is so hooked on that he’s willing to put in time, effort, and investment in, there’s no reason for him to go to a hooker.

    At first, no. But over time? In a monogamous relationsihp? There are millions of married men, including married nice guy beta males, who cheat on their wives with hookers once the three-year mark in the marriage has been passed.

    Prostitution is illegal because, in the long run, it is by far the cheapest way for the ordinary man to get laid.

    Correct; pretty much what I said in the article only using different words.

    prostitution is actually a nice example of an antifragile profession, if you have ever read that theory

    Correct! It is.

    That depends on the hooker. Just like any normal profession, they can always refuse to deal with a client. And I think most even do

    Of course it does but at as a general rule, hookers will fuck anyone as long as they feel reasonably safe. If they turn down a paying client it’s often for safety reasons, not how he looks.

    I know, and have known, a decent amount of escorts/hookers, and it’s crazy; these women, including the hot pros, will fuck disgusting fat guys, disgusting old guys, guys in wheelchairs hooked up to machines, you name it.

    Whereas a sugar baby from a sugar daddy web site will absolutely not fuck you she doesn’t find you at least somewhat attractive (to her), and you won’t be able to change her mind no matter how much money you offer her. She’ll just go back on the site and look for a hotter guy, of which there are plenty.

    It’s a big difference between the two.

  20. If escorts are the most wonderful thing ever and its really so much cheaper than regular women, why do men bother with women at all? Its not like escorts arent readily available.

    My guess is that most men really need more than clinical sex and fake emotion. You need the thrill of the hunt, a challenge and the ego stroke that comes with working and succeeding at seducing a woman. They also need feelings of love and admiration that a paid worker doesn’t genuinely give.

  21. Thanks for that explanation…I stand corrected. As you stated, it is our biological imperative to protect and provide (which is a healthy sign of any relationship).

    I’m in possession of your book “The Unchained Man” and highly recommend it to others.

    Quick question… I found this article highly complimented by your Sugar Daddy Sites article… Sugar Daddy Dating Site Game and Online Game Are Similar, But Not The Same…you mentioned… There are very clear differences. Perhaps I’ll go into more detail in a future post regarding the specifics, but I don’t want this article to run too long.”

    Can you revisit this and release a detailed writing on it?

     

  22. Lovergirl says

    Legalizing prostitution makes it much easier for people to get away with human trafficking, which is modern day slavery at its worst.  It allows very young girls to be tricked into a life that is ultimately destroying her soul and joy in life.

    Lovergirl, I think this is exactly wrong. One of the problems these unfortunate women have is that they really have no legal recourse, no protection. They are kept in intimidation both by the threat of violence from their pimps and the threat of prison from the police. And there really is no one who will defend them.

    Legalizing prostitution would allow them to have an expectation of legal rights. It would rob the pimps of many of the tools used to oppress them, in fact the pimps would largely die out, since that type of criminal activity thrives on its illegality.

    When liquor was illegal in the United States it was still widely available, but it was produced and sold by the nastiest of gangs and crooks. It was adulterated, poisonous, and going in a speakeasy you took your life in your hands because you had no legal recourse. Some guy robs you or stabs you what can you do? Call the cops?

    Today liquor is sold by nice people, in lovely places, it is a pleasant experience, and, aside from the intrinsic dangers of alcohol, it is safe, you have the protection of police, the business is conducted honestly, and the customer is put first.

    One can only imagine how much better professionally run brothels would be. If we could get away from our societies puritanical view of sex we could even be honest and not use, as one commenter above said, “use code words” we could just say what it was.

    Women, particularly prostitutes, would be vastly better off were it legal, with the one exception that the price would go down a lot because they don’t get bonused for the danger they put themselves in.

     

  23. Last time I checked pot is still illegal in much of the US even though pretty much everyone admits having something like that illegal doesn’t make sense in any universe.

    Government doesn’t make rational sense.

    Laws might not make sense and many government decisions certainly don’t, true, but they DO have to be well defined and unambiguous. There’s a big difference between something not making sense and being poorly defined.

    Your analogy is terrible because the illegality of pot, while perhaps not making sense to many, is still an easily definable and unambiguous law. ie.  The substance with the scientific properties of x and y is illegal, so if found in possession of said substance it can be tested and proven and prosecuted. You can’t be caught carrying tobacco (a legal substance), and prosecuted for carrying pot. So while it might not make sense that tobacco is legal and pot isn’t, the separation between the two is EASILY DEFINABLE.

    In the case of sugar baby or escort relationships it is impossible to clearly and unambiguously separate them from normal relationships, there is no clear definition that can be put into words that makes them distinct from regular dating, BF/GF, MLTR‘s or FWB relationships. To make them illegal would be to make all sex outside of marriage or defacto relationships (which are easily definable) illegal. Therefor it would be impossible without having serious ramifications for all.

    As for the second outcome though, it isn’t just likely, it’s inevitable, and that is the endgame of the feminism experiment. Right now we’re in the middle of the transition from a long term exchange of value between men and women (marriage for sex) to a short term one. The market is still correcting itself and sorting itself out, but as the institution of marriage continues to collapse as men realize it’s a raw deal due to feminist laws that effect marriage and the realization that we’re not a monogamous species, women will look to get that value elsewhere, so the shift will be towards a short term exchange of value (money/goods/services for sex), and that’s exactly what you’re seeing play out in real time with these SD sites.

    Is it ‘yuck’ and ‘lose, lose’? Well it depends on your point of reference. For guys like ourselves that know the game and the system and can flourish in the current environment and get all the ‘free’ sex we desire, yeah, it’s not so good. But for the average guy who would typically end up marrying some girl and getting shafted in divorce court, this new (or at least becoming more mainstream) paradigm of renting instead of buying might not look so bad.

  24. I found this article highly complimented by your Sugar Daddy Sites article… Sugar Daddy Dating Site Game and Online Game Are Similar, But Not The Same…you mentioned… There are very clear differences. Perhaps I’ll go into more detail in a future post regarding the specifics, but I don’t want this article to run too long.”

    Can you revisit this and release a detailed writing on it?

    I’m working on something but I can’t talk about it yet. Stay tuned.

    In the case of sugar baby or escort relationships it is impossible to clearly and unambiguously separate them from normal relationships, there is no clear definition that can be put into words that makes them distinct from regular dating

    Oh, so wrong again, and your your blind spot on this is odd. The insane Obamacare bill my idiotic country passed was over 2000 pages long. So was the recent omnibus bill. One of the reasons for these lengths is so congressmen, most of whom are lawyers, can write in every possible variation on the law to catch as much people as they can.

    Example: It is hereby illegal to give money in any way (cash, bank transfer, PayPal, etc), for any reason, to any woman who has sex with you (and they would have 10 pages of legalese defining exactly what “sex” means, vaginal intercourse, oral sex, etc), who does not live with you full time, whom you met on an internet site. It is also illegal to give gifts to such a person totaling more than $100, in current market values, per month…etc

    Boom. That covers a hell of a lot of bases right there. Does it cover all the bases? No, but that was just two sentences. Imagine if I had 400 pages to formulate such a law.

    So yes, they can make sugar babies illegal. It’s not nearly as hard as you think.

    But again, as I stated in the article, it will not make sugar babies go away. Sugar daddies and babies will still fuck each other for cash, they’ll just do it more covertly, just like illegal drug users and prostitutes do it now.

    So they can pass a law, but it won’t “work” they way they think it will (no law does). Like right-wingers insistence on drugs being illegal and left-wingers insistence on gay marriage being legal, it will be mostly symbolic (i.e. useless, and a massive waste of taxpayer’s time and money).

    Right now we’re in the middle of the transition from a long term exchange of value between men and women (marriage for sex) to a short term one. The market is still correcting itself and sorting itself out, but as the institution of marriage continues to collapse as men realize it’s a raw deal due to feminist laws that effect marriage and the realization that we’re not a monogamous species, women will look to get that value elsewhere, so the shift will be towards a short term exchange of value (money/goods/services for sex), and that’s exactly what you’re seeing play out in real time with these SD sites.

    Now there you’re absolutely right, and that was well said. The failure of monogamy and marriage, as well as the government’s massive intervention in the free market which drives prices up and real wages and currency values down, has forced women to seek other means of squeezing cash out of men, and currently we’re in a transitional state into something completely new which we have not seen yet.

    Is it ‘yuck’ and ‘lose, lose’? Well it depends on your point of reference. For guys like ourselves that know the game and the system and can flourish in the current environment and get all the ‘free’ sex we desire, yeah, it’s not so good. But for the average guy who would typically end up marrying some girl and getting shafted in divorce court, this new (or at least becoming more mainstream) paradigm of renting instead of buying might not look so bad.

    Only if you’re a high-income beta male, yes. The sugar daddy sites have been absolutely invaded by gameless, needy, higher-income betas, many of them married. Low or mid-income betas, who can’t afford to slap down $300 every time they want to have sex, aren’t going to do well.

    But even that isn’t relevant, since as I’ve always said, betas have always been fucked no matter what system was or is in use. Another definition for “beta male” is “I’m fucked no matter what.”

  25. “However, very often, women who are actually prostitutes are not doing it of their own free will.  They are bullied, coerced or drugged into it.”  That’s the narrative alright. Equal parts feminism/misandry/lack of accountability for women etc.

    There is also the narrative that during the Super Bowl, Olympics etc that the host cities will have an influx of 10,000 or more trafficked sex slaves to work the event. So that’s 10,000 pimps too, don’t forget. THE MEDIA ACTUALLY SAYS THIS AND PEOPLE ACTUALLY BELIEVE IT. Gov’t funds are used to train officials all over the place, hotlines etc. When someone who was a true expert in this field was asked for an estimate of how many trafficked ‘victims’ he thought the Super Bowl might produce, his response was “maybe one.”

     

  26. Example: It is hereby illegal to give money in any way (cash, bank transfer, PayPal, etc), for any reason, to any woman who has sex with you (and they would have 10 pages of legalese defining exactly what “sex” means, vaginal intercourse, oral sex, etc), who does not live with you full time, whom you met on an internet site. It is also illegal to give gifts to such a person totaling more than $100, in current market values, per month…etc

    I don’t see it happening. Because then the very liberal feminists pushing the agenda will realize that it’s no longer legal for their beta BF they met on match.com to hand them money for lunch, or shopping or anything etc. How can they be ‘strong and independent’ if no man is willing to pick up the tab 😉 speaking of which do you know how many self professed ‘feminists’ I’ve found on these sites. LOL. It’s EMPOWERING!!

    You know what is a REAL possibility? A law that makes it illegal for a male who is x years older than a female to engage in consensual sex. THAT is a law you should actually be worried about. When it becomes statutory rape for a 50 year old male to have sex with a 24 year old female REGARDLESS of whether consent was given.

    That is much more likely outcome of the current SD situation. I can very easily imagine this occurring. OR a combination of your proposal and this one. Where it’s illegal for a male that is x years older than a female he is engaging in sex with that he met online to ever pay or gift her under any circumstances. That effectively cuts out older males SMV wealth advantage of younger men, yeah… That I could definitely see happening.

  27. I think geographic location and also the situation has all kinds of significance.

    A tatted up 28 year old bad girl walking the street in Portland has nothing whatsoever to do with meeting a curvy Indonesian 19 year old in Hong Kong who wants to hang out with you all weekend, go swimming with you at the beach, watch a movie and then spend the night with you and shyly expects a ‘gift’ or doesn’t even expect one, but who will not see you again if there is not one.

    One hour on the dot with a bitchy-eyed Vegas mercenary with silicon, who doesn’t look nearly as good nude as she does when she’s pushed up with her heels on, is all kinds of different from an on again, off again cool, young party girl in South America who is happy to see you a few times a week if you take her out, pay her rent etc. It’s very much a game of hinting in some parts of the world. A girl will steer you to the phone shop and dream out loud about a new cell phone. The fun/romance is maintained as is her dignity. So there are all kinds of ways of going about it. One thing I will no longer do (after diving into the world of both official and unstated escorts) is spend hours in clubs chasing 8’s…okay, they’re not interested, down to a 7….hmm…midnight now….okay get those digits from a 6 and maybe never call her. Wake up hungover having spent an escort sessions worth of cash, maybe date that six knowing how much less she offers you than your 9 escort. For the same money spent in two hours in an American club, you can go to some parts of the world and get pure physical delight from a 20 year old with a penthouse body. It’s very nice. You DO NOT get the psychological rewards of those blue pill dreams of yesteryear. I guess that’s obvious, but the fear, rejection, conquest, power struggles etc of getting a girl in ‘real life’ can really ramp up the excitement. An escort is yours, so there is something missing but you get over it pretty quickly. I will say one thing for someone who’s never indulged; There is a lot to be said for NEVER doing this. Not for reasons that you might guess. But if you indulge in some of the physiques available around the world you might never see a mediocre 6’s body the same way again. If you had planned to marry a six and be traditional, some of those memories of 19 year old freaks might be troublesome for your future. Once you know what is out there for you, you can’t go back. If you have some money to spend overseas and you know where to go and what to do, you will be amazed with how quickly your standards go up. A girl with the body of say, Miley Cyrus….sorry, not nearly good enough. Not nearly. You get spoiled and there are physical freaks available that you can go weeks in the US without even seeing from a distance. There is a lot to be said for a guy simply accepting and learning to appreciate his SMV counterpart’s charms. Pay for a 10 when you’re a 5 and it can goof up your wiring in some ways, I guess. I don’t think it’s that tragic though, ha ha.

  28. “You know what is a REAL possibility? A law that makes it illegal for a male who is x years older than a female to engage in consensual sex.”

    Wooah man. Don’t give them any ideas. That DOES seem very possible and it is absolutely in keeping with so many feminist prescripts. It’s well in-line in every way and drips with Fem. Imperative.

    –It protects the interests of the aged lawmakers (who would be making that law)

    –It adds to male unhappiness.

    –It fuels misandry

     

    Frankly it would also cause a spike in 55 plus suicides which would be fine with feminists. Hold off a little on the clear insights, ha ha. Depressingly likely.

  29. There is a lot to be said for NEVER doing this. Not for reasons that you might guess. But if you indulge in some of the physiques available around the world you might never see a mediocre 6’s body the same way again. If you had planned to marry a six and be traditional, some of those memories of 19 year old freaks might be troublesome for your future.

    Nah, I can see how you’d think that but it doesn’t work like this. I’ve been with models (my current side girl is a model and big 4 beauty pageant winner and isn’t charging me a cent pure FWB), strippers, super hot escorts, a pornstar etc. paid and unpaid.

    My wife, while gorgeous to me, can’t match the pure physical beauty of some of these women, but it doesn’t matter. I’d rather spend my quality time with her than with any of those other girls and could never see myself in a serious relationship with any of those girls, although I’m a man and monogamy doesn’t work and we have an open marriage so I’ll still get a little fun on the side with girls like that.

    Just look at guys like John Lennon, how many super hot women do you think he slept with? Then he marries Yoko Ono. Maybe he was still getting some from other girls on the side, maybe not, but either way he chose to spend the bulk of his time with a woman who, physically, couldn’t match girls he’d slept with previously. Heaps of examples like this exist.

    The moral of the story is, as a heterosexual man, you’ll always want a variety of hot, sexy women throughout your life, sleeping with 10’s doesn’t ruin you, traditional monogamy just never worked to begin with, so you were already ‘ruined’ in the traditional sense.

  30. If escorts are the most wonderful thing ever and its really so much cheaper than regular women, why do men bother with women at all? Its not like escorts arent readily available.

    What makes you think they don’t do so already (the number of men who have used an escort in their lives is a lot higher than people expect)? It is the oldest profession for a reason. And men don’t need just sex as you know. But for some sexual diversity a whore/escort/working girl seems fine. But a short list why people don’t do it:

    Social shaming
    Thrill of the hunt
    Think they can get a better ‘deal’ by getting it free
    Afraid to contact women at all (incels for example)
    To expensive to get what they want
    Men are professionals, they understand a business transaction when they see it
    Some men want children, not just sex

    My guess is that most men really need more than clinical sex and fake emotion. You need the thrill of the hunt, a challenge and the ego stroke that comes with working and succeeding at seducing a woman. They also need feelings of love and admiration that a paid worker doesn’t genuinely give.

     

    While I never used an escort myself, you are quite wrong that they don’t genuinely give affection. Some do. And with some clients more than others. It is a simple job. You seem to be dehumanizing escorts a lot. (A bit of a social conditioning problem. And some escorts react by doing the same to clients (I heard about a forum for escorts in which the moderators push back when people dehumanize clients). Please think of them as people first, and escorts second. They also take out their trash and pay (some) taxes like normal people.

    And you know lovergirl, just to mess with your mind a bit, think of this. And you will not like it, so best stop reading now. You seem like a free spirited woman with quite some sexual experience, but you are a bit afraid that a guy you know might have slept with a prostitute.

    One of the main reasons people go to prostitutes is because it provides them with a discrete experience, and a lot of men use whores, but will never tell. That is part of the experience. The more sexually experienced a guy, the more likely it is they have used an escort. (Contrary to popular belief, men who use whores are usually not the ugly loser types, but men who just pay for the easy fuck, the convenience and discreteness). My whore friend informs me these men are usually also a lot better in the sack.

    So next time you sleep with a guy who is good in the sack, just think of that, he probably also slept with escorts. And you will never know. Any smart man will deny it, it isn’t like people will ever find out. And even to ask a guy if he used an whore is socially not done.

    Little know, outside of people in the know, a lot of sex workers are very transsexual friendly, and a high percentage of sex workers are trans or not gender normative. With the social stigma surrounding transsexuals, transitioning, and sex working, it is a good combination. Providing discreteness and a way to get paid. A good way to tell if a woman is a transsexual (If transitioned early enough in life, it can be hard to tell) is to see if she needs a lot of vaginal lubrication. A problem that science has not fixed.

    So don’t ask a guy if he slept with a prostitute, ask him if he ever slept with a woman who never could get wet and always brought her own lubrication. A clear tell for a transsexual. Well, or don’t, as people should just be transsexuals if they want, and it should not matter who sleeps with who.

    “You know what is a REAL possibility? A law that makes it illegal for a male who is x years older than a female to engage in consensual sex.”

    Social conditioning, got to love it. I have been shamed by people because I was dating a girl that fell outside of the (my age/2) + 7 ‘rule’ (only one person warned me for the right reason, she was crazy). People take this shit way to seriously. So it certainly is a possibility. Laws that try to stop people from having sex just creates more criminals.

    To be ahead of the curve, lets just put all men on the sex offenders list until they pass some sort of certification course. Whitelisting, but for sex!

  31. “If escorts are the most wonderful thing ever and its really so much cheaper than regular women, why do men bother with women at all? Its not like escorts arent readily available.”

    This question is an arrow straight into the heart of the matter. Most guys (minus BD) want to take ownership of a woman (or more than one). Make her part of his house. House as in mini-kingdom. Even if he is some office drone outside his house, when he comes home he is the king over his house, wife and kids.

    This is the basic foundation, marriage was built on. In return, the man would take responsibility for his wife. Never dump her. Keep her save and well fed even in old age. In our society this contract would limit the males to one woman so other males (of lower rank) would get their very own woman too. Worked for 1000s of years. Until socialism raised its ugly head.

    In our modern age – at least in the US and most parts of europe – the modern and strong women work nowadays. They earn money. They can rely on a strong and big goverment and its laws to protect them. They no longer need the man as they did in the past. At least thats what it looks like when you are a woman and around 20. For many women by the age of 40 this outlook has changed considerably, and it will be getting worse each passing year; but i do disgress.

    What has this to do with prostitution? Well escort/professional sex will provide release and a lubricated pussy. It is a nice way for beta males to fuck quality pussy every once in a while. Quality they otherwise would never get . For an alpha it is a time saving and reliable way to get some fun, counter stress and relax when you feel like it.

    Prostitution will not add anything to his personal mini-kingdom. No woman waiting at home with a meal. No KIDS (!). No private nurse when he gets sick. Many men will value these things higher than they value pure sex.

    It is my personal understanding of life that in the long run the traditional marriage will win. Socialism and big goverment are in decline all over the west. The modern, strong and independent women we have today, may be something our grandchildren will learn about in shool and wonder how this ever worked out. Maybe i am wrong, maybe i am right – time will let us know. Until then it was never a greater time to live as an alpha male (or female!) than it is today.

  32. However, very often, women who are actually prostitutes are not doing it of their own free will.  They are bullied, coerced or drugged into it.  Many times they are treated poorly and see very little of their “profit,” which actually goes to abusive pimps.

    This is simply not true. Absolute nonsense, just like “Reefer Madness”. Go visit Maggie McNeil’s website.

  33. And at least hookers place some kind of a value on their sexuality, unlike women who give it away for free.

    @Ashley:

    Excuse me???? Next time you sleep with a guy, give him 500 dollars, just to make sure that he values his sexuality instead of “giving” it away for free! Come on! Do it for his self esteem! Because people who have sex in exchange for sex because they are both horny are low self esteem losers, right? RIGHT???

    You represent everything that’s wrong with this world!

     

  34. This is the basic foundation, marriage was built on. In return, the man would take responsibility for his wife. Never dump her. Keep her save and well fed even in old age. In our society this contract would limit the males to one woman so other males (of lower rank) would get their very own woman too. Worked for 1000s of years. Until socialism raised its ugly head.

    Maldek, are you completely insane? 75 years old? Living in a conservative, third world shithole? It has to be one of these. Especially since you’re mistaking capitalism for socialism.

    Let’s see, your vision is: A bunch of men standing in line to get just one woman (usually of low quality). And he is limited to just one because every other man needs one too, so we must “share the wealth” even at the expense of quality. One is all you get because the other men must also get fed! And you call this…………………….capitalism??? And you call the opposite……………………..socialism??????

    Dude, there is something seriously wrong with your brain. The “paradise” that you describe is precisely socialism. What we have today, by contrast, is sexual capitalism! A few men at the top get all the women, while the betas get nothing, except actresses who fake it (read: prostitutes).

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: DON’T. HATE. THE. SEX. CREATORS! If you work hard, hit the gym, learn game, and become an alpha male you too can be a sex creator. Now stop whining, or pining about the traditional/conservative sexual socialism of the past, and embrace our new sexual capitalist market! It’s awesome………unless you’re a lazy bum who doesn’t want to learn game. In that case, enjoy your bad actresses who fake it for money.

    In our modern age – at least in the US and most parts of europe – the modern and strong women work nowadays. They earn money.

    In other words, women are no longer parasites leeching off of my bank account! Oh no! How horrible! Why can’t women be socialist parasites like they used to be in the alpha male 1.0 good old days? Wait….what the fuck am I saying? You got me fucked up Maldek!

    They no longer need the man as they did in the past.

    I guess some of us get turned on by children in adult bodies. Pretty creepy, but I digress. Do you really like the hassle of taking care of an overgrown child who you sleep with?

    It is my personal understanding of life that in the long run the traditional marriage will win.

    In other words, you believe sexual socialism will return. Only one woman of low quality for each man, must spread the wealth to other men, blah, blah, blah.

    Socialism and big goverment are in decline all over the west.

    So………………if socialism is on the decline, that means that traditional marriage is losing, not winning!

    Dude, you hurt my head! Seriously, don’t hate the sex creators. Most men deserve nothing until they up their game. And the few men at the top do indeed deserve everything. It is the natural order of things. In other words, its capitalism, in contrast to the puritanical socialist trash that you want to return to.

    Men like you seriously scare me!

  35. Here are some stats on violence against prostitutes.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_prostitutes

    Here is another wikipedia article on pimping and some quotes from it below (bolded emphasis mine)- I’m trying to get as nonbiased here as possible. It goes on to say that there is some speculation that this may be a small percentage, but there is no proof of that.  I can also say from personal experience that gang rape, psychological intimidation and shame can be and are used to force young girls into sexual acts with men they might not otherwise agree to.

    You all are acting as though most prostitution involves high dollar escorts but there is a lot more to the sex industry than that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procuring_%28prostitution%29

    The pimp–prostitute relationship can be abusive and possessive, with the pimp/madam using techniques such as psychological intimidation, manipulation, starvation, rape and/or gang rape, beating, confinement, threats of violence toward the victim’s family, forced drug use and the shame from these acts

    A large percentage of pimps in the United States are also documented gang members, which causes concerns for police agencies in jurisdictions where prostitution is a significant problem. Pimping rivals narcotic sales as a major source of funding for many gangs, this is particularly true with African American gangs. Gangs need money to survive, and money equates to power and respect. While selling drugs may be lucrative for a gang, this activity often carries significant risk as stiff legal penalties and harsh mandatory minimum sentencing laws exist. However, with pimping, gang members still make money while the prostitutes themselves bear the majority of the risk.

    The pimp business has an internal structure – built around violence – for dealing with rule breakers. For example, pimps have been known to employ a “pimp stick”, which is two coat hangers wrapped together, in order to subdue unruly prostitutes.[26] A variation is a “pimp cane”, used for similar purposes.[citation needed] Another punishment for disobedient prostitutes is to “trunk” them, where the pimp locks the prostitute in the trunk of a car. Although prostitutes are supposedly free to move between pimps, this movement sometimes leads to violence. For example, a prostitute could be punished for merely looking at another pimp; this is considered “reckless eyeballing”.[26] Violence is also used on customers, for example if the customer attempts to evade payment or becomes unruly with a prostitute.

  36. But for some sexual diversity a whore/escort/working girl seems fine. But a short list why people don’t do it:

    Social shaming
    Thrill of the hunt
    Think they can get a better ‘deal’ by getting it free
    Afraid to contact women at all (incels for example)
    To expensive to get what they want
    Men are professionals, they understand a business transaction when they see it
    Some men want children, not just sex

    Forget all the above bullshit! There are two reasons – and only two reasons – it is morally wrong and contemptible to go to a prostitute:

    1. It’s an acknowledgment of female supremacy: By paying her, you are saying that her body is more valuable than yours. In other words, you are admitting that you’re a loser. If you don’t believe me, tell a girl you’re on a date with who is hinting about taking you back to her place for some great sex – “Sure, but I expect 200 dollars up front. I’m NOT a cheap man. I have standards and self esteem.” She’ll be horribly insulted. Why? Because you made her feel like an inferior, sexually speaking. I could picture a morbidly obese 600 pound woman agreeing to pay you for sex, but not any woman with even an ounce of self respect! Men with self respect don’t go to prostitutes. Those who do are losers. They may not be losers in the financial sense, but make no mistake, these men are low self esteem losers (the equivalent of a morbidly obese woman).

    2. Experiencing an actress who fakes it takes away the whole point of sex: If you’re a normal man, a woman’s orgasm is the source of your own. When you witness her moaning, cumming, and making various sex noises, your own sexual experience is enhanced, because giving her ecstatic pleasure is…..literally the sole source of your own ecstatic pleasure! But going to an actress whose job it is to fake it and put on a show for you that, in your deepest heart, you know is pure horseshit, just so you can suspend your own disbelief and fool yourself into thinking that she’s really cumming for you when she is just a worker, really makes you a pathetic and contemptible low status nerd, no different than a guy who wants to be plugged into the matrix or a video game addict. When you fool yourself into thinking that fakers and actresses are as good as the real thing, you start to have problems telling the difference between reality and fantasy, and that’s when your sanity starts to suffer.

    Seriously guys, say no to women who want money for sex, or anything for sex besides sex. They’re trash. Don’t be the fool who gives a woman money to pretend that she got multiple orgasms. Join the rest of us in reality instead. If you can’t because you’re a loser beta, or a lazy alpha, so be it. But let’s not pretend that you aren’t pathetic, because you really, really are!

    I will never sleep with a morbidly obese woman, no matter how much she pays me. But I would much rather sleep with her than degrade myself by sleeping with a perfect 10 prostitute. At least the fat woman’s orgasms will be genuine and the experience will be real and sincere, but a perfect 10 prostitute is a phony and wants my money to convince me of the false reality of fiction.

    I’d sleep with 100 morbidly obese women before I sleep with even one perfect 10 prostitute.

  37. My comment went into moderation, I guess because of the links to Wikipedia articles regarding violence against prostitutes and pimping.  In the meantime, I will just say that sticking your head in the sand doesn’t mean that prostitutes are not being abused.  I just read an article recently about a bust on massage parlors in California where the women were being starved and held against their will, not allowed to leave the establishment, even to do grocery shopping.  These women were tricked into coming to the United States for other purposes and then forced into sex work.  It’s not “absolute nonsense”.

    I’ve heard some real horror stories, secondhand, from men who admitted to sleeping with escorts.  It’s not all a bed of rose petals.  There are thorns under there too.

  38. I also admit that if I suspect a guy is going to an escort and paying a bunch of money that I am going to feel undervalued by having sex with him for free.  Like, oh you are paying HER to fuck you so if you don’t want to pay ME then forget it and Fuck Off!

  39. Right now we’re in the middle of the transition from a long term exchange of value between men and women (marriage for sex) to a short term one. The market is still correcting itself and sorting itself out, but as the institution of marriage continues to collapse as men realize it’s a raw deal due to feminist laws that effect marriage and the realization that we’re not a monogamous species, women will look to get that value elsewhere, so the shift will be towards a short term exchange of value (money/goods/services for sex), and that’s exactly what you’re seeing play out in real time with these SD sites.

    I agree with this statement from @WolfOfGeorgeStreet too.

    Is this transition due to issues with the institution of marriage alone or can we place some of the blame with social networking as well (Instagram, online dating, Tinder etc)? These tools have had the effect of making women believe they have way more SMV than they do due to the number of groupies they have on these sites and the number of men from every corner of the world offering them everything you can think of for some attention.

    Also is this transition even further along than we think or is it just the case that if you are a man doing well and dating hot chicks in their early twenties you generally tend to experience it more?

    I’m guessing BD did not meet her on a SD site but she has determined that BD appears to be a guy that can afford to and should be taking care of her lifestyle.  I experience this these days on young chicks gamed normally, not immediately but eventually they look at it like you can afford it and she has all these needs so why should she not be getting sugar from you. Like someone mentioned in the comments it may not be directly but indirectly by steering you in the direction of her financial issues. Even though she likes you, she has mad fun with you, you make her cum multiple times etc. I know a few other guys that have the same experience. So except you structure your lifestyle to appear you are not of means it seems like you will probably experience this more. Having said that if I’m regularly dating a chick and she seems like a reasonable person I naturally want to help her when or if I can, however its the ones that feel entitled I can’t stand, then its like chick the only thing you’re entitled to is what you’re giving me.

    Another question, even though I agree with the statement above about a transition taking place, I still wonder if there really is something new going on here or has it always been like this? When I discuss this with older men they tend to believe it has always been like this and we are just noticing it now because we are growing it.

  40. There are several other things we consider them first .Left the prostitution legality a matter of next century.

  41. @ Lovergirl,

     

    “Keeping your head in the sand” on an issue  is bad.

     

    But pointing out the misandry and feminist insanity driving the super-inflated stats is not ‘keeping your head in the sand’.

     

     

     

  42. @Jackinhisbox

    “You got me fucked up Maldek!”

    No, you did that yourself.

    “I’d sleep with 100 morbidly obese women before I sleep with even one perfect 10 prostitute.”

    Have fun.

    “Men with self respect don’t go to prostitutes. ”

    Wrong. Men without options, have no other way to get quality pussy. Men with even less options may have no other way to get any pussy at all. Men who do have plenty of pussy available may still like the service. Release and relax is not the same as satisfaction, but sometimes relax is all thats needed.

    Dont underestimate the aggressive energy and tension beta (or lesser) males build up inside of them when they do not have a woman in their lives for longer periods of time. One of the things I do spend my time with is martial arts instructor. You can feel the difference when you work with theses guys. A few lays and the tension is gone. At this level release does the job.

    One could get the impression you are a selfish ass with very little understanding how the majority of your fellow males struggle with women. I may be in a sweet spot now that I am in my 40s but i can remember how it was 25 years ago. Moreover I do have friends, buddies and even family who are low in the male SMV ladder. They suffer and they suffer a lot but yet our society relies on people like them. I do not look down on these guys. Thats the difference between you and me.

  43. @Jacks outside the box,

     

    What a massive overreaction. I love my Sunday afternoon girls in Asia, sometimes under 20 (just a touch) I’m well into middle-age btw.There is a financial element but who cares? The moral structure here concerning promiscuity/money etc is totally different and it’s simply pure pleasure.

    If you’re so bent out of shape over women then you need to leave the states. You can actually enjoy women from feminine countries (or guys with game in the states, I’ll take their word, but I’m long gone).

    And women do have sexual supremacy. That’s a natural fact. Indulge it, don’t fight it. Banging a hundred obese women before you’d spend an afternoon with a 5’11” Chinese 18 year old with a perfect ass? Weird thought. Get away from the warzone of American women and indulge.

  44. Kaminsky- calling statistics regarding abuse of prostitutes “misandry” is ridiculous.  Trying to make the entire male population into victims because someone points out the very real fact that with prostitution often comes mistreatment is a real stretch. There are females abusing female prostitutes and males abusing male prostitutes as well.  It’s not even entirely gender based.

    If legalizing prostitution actually helped prevent human beings from being coerced into it I would be all for it.  I’m not against trading sex for money if both parties are doing it completely of their own free will and not subject to abuse or doing it because they are addicted to a drug.

    You can claim statistics are false all day, but go into a prison, drug rehab center or juvenile detention and actually talk to people who have been involved in prostitution and then come back claiming its all fake and that everyone got into it out of their own free will, happily.  I’ve actually done all of the above and seen the ugly effects.

    Go into red light districts where women are engaging in prostitution to stay alive or to maintain a drug habit and tell me this is making them happy and fulfilled.  Would you encourage your daughter to become a prostitute, in the conditions that exist now?  How about if it were legal?

  45. “Go into red light districts where women are engaging in prostitution to stay alive or to maintain a drug habit and tell me this is making them happy and fulfilled.”

    Why should I have to? Why would I have ever even thought about that or even interacted with those types of people? I use upscale professionals who have clearly chosen to do a bit of very highly paid hourly labor. So what does someone’s drug problem have to do with me? Is your hamster so hyper-conditioned that some druggie’s addiction is my fault? Please don’t tell me that’s what you’re trying to do.

     

    Also, accurate statistics are fine with me. Find any kidnapper, abuser or pimp and give them the death penalty NOW. See if I give a shit. But your whole take is purely female. You tried to be cool and hang with us and be down with the cause but your bullshit just comes shining through. Leave.

  46. @Kaminsky

    Why should I have to? Why would I have ever even thought about that or even interacted with those types of people?

    Because that is where the majority of prostitution takes place. The fact that you are fortunate enough to play in a different arena doesn’t negate LoverGirl’s broader discussion of prostitution. As I expressed before I think the missing piece here is that the illegality of prostitution is really at the heart of the mess that leaves these girls at such risk. Of course if it were legal would there still be violence against prostitutes? Of course there would. There are plenty of freaks who abuse women even without an exchange of finances. But would these women still be so disempowered that they can’t find help from the legal system? Plainly not.

    See if I give a shit. But your whole take is purely female. You tried to be cool and hang with us and be down with the cause but your bullshit just comes shining through. Leave.

    Please don’t leave LoverGirl. Of course your perspective is female, and all the more interesting for it, and I find it extremely interesting, even when I think you are wrong.

    One of the things I find disturbing about the MRA and related communities is this type of dislike directed toward women. Me? I think women are awesome. I think the web has allowed men to discuss a more realistic view of how women really think when the social programming is peeled back, and that benefits everybody. How great we have some great women who get involved and can honestly speak about it, and have the self confidence and self awareness to peel back their own social programming. I say let’s have lots more chicks like that please.

     

  47. @Maldek says

    Wrong. Men without options, have no other way to get quality pussy. Men with even less options may have no other way to get any pussy at all. Men who do have plenty of pussy available may still like the service. Release and relax is not the same as satisfaction, but sometimes relax is all thats needed.

    I agree. I am reminded of a news item last year sometime. It was about this 15 year old kid who was dying in hospital of something like kidney failure. He was a virgin and his last dying wish was to get laid. So his parents procured him a prostitute with the “nod, nod, wink, wink” agreement of the hospital. They got together and d id the deed, and not long after the kid succumbed to his disease. However, some self righteous moron decided to publicize his horror at this “immoral violation” and the hospital got in a huge amount of trouble.

    To me that is such utter bullshit.  I think it was a really cool and beautiful thing, and I am sure the prostitute really felt amazingly good about herself afterward. How cool were those parents, and how decent the hospital personnel? And what a fucking weasel to blow the lid.

     

     

  48. Lovergirl doesn’t understand that much of the reason for the coercion and violence in prostitution is because it’s illegal.

    If a hooker gets beaten up, she can’t go to the cops and say, “I’m a sex worker and my pimp/john beat the shit out of me and I want to press charges and throw that guy in jail.” But if prostitution was legal, hookers could do exactly that, and they would. (This is just one example. I could list many others.)

    Making it legal would bring much of this out into the light and make it safer for everyone. As it stands now, it’s illegal so it still operates in the darkness.

  49. @Lovergirl:

    You are emphasising CRIMES against female persons. These range from enslavement, coercion to take drugs and of course physical assaults. All of these are illegal and punishable in most jurisdictions. On their own, they don’t amount to Prostitution – a very old, noble profession which will outlast many others.

    As an example from the world’s other old profession, just because politicians lie, steal and rob public out of their money does not make politics an evil or criminal pursuit.

    Have a great day. You always say important things.

  50. Go into red light districts where women are engaging in prostitution to stay alive or to maintain a drug habit and tell me this is making them happy and fulfilled. Would you encourage your daughter to become a prostitute, in the conditions that exist now? How about if it were legal?

    Is anything in that specific to prostitution? Take any profession and there are people doing it to stay alive and/or to maintain some deplorable habit. If anything, having prostitution as an option prevented them from committing actual crimes with actual victims.

    Let’s check…

    Go into industrial towns where men are mining coal to stay alive or to maintain a drug habit and tell me this is making them happy and fulfilled. Would you encourage your son to become a miner, in the conditions that exist now? How would that depend on whether the mining enterprise is legal or not?

  51. Is anything in that specific to prostitution? Take any profession and there are people doing it to stay alive and/or to maintain some deplorable habit

    Exactly.

    Go into an investment bank where bankers are engaging in soulless, mind numbing work to live some high flying life they THINK they wanted or to maintain an expensive drug habit and tell me this is making them happy and fulfilled.  Would you encourage your child to become an investment banker, in the conditions that exist now?

    In any profession there are people that do it because they love it and those that do it because it’s a job and puts food on the table OR pays great money so they sacrifice some (or all) job satisfaction for better pay, and there are many legal professions that are almost purely about the money with very few gaining satisfaction from it beyond a paycheck. Ironically, investment bankers (some of the biggest users of prostitutes) in many cases, enjoy their job LESS than than the prostitute they’re paying to visit.

    There are many prostitutes that find some satisfaction with their work (obviously with some clients more than others) and many that hate the job and do it only because they get paid more than prostituting themselves to a corporation in a boring office job (which they’d also probably hate), at least this way the same bosses they’d be reporting to and being yelled at by for $20 an hour are paying them $150-$700 an hour on her terms, not theirs.

  52. I honestly don’t believe all women are prostitutes, and this has nothing to do with morality, good girls, Madonna whore complex, purity, feminism, or anything like that. I think it’s simple biology, modern culture, and motivation, why many women want to pay their own way.

    I’ve been with fuckbuddies who refused to accept money for ANYTHING. Even a donut. And – they were unemployed and strapped for cash. Maybe it’s a pride thing or independent woman thing. I would plead to just take my money because things can get messy when one party is broke and you’re taking them out.

    It wasn’t a long con either. This happened while I was fucking my way through Europe. Nothing was remotely long term. Many of these girls seemed very masculine in sexuality though – they wanted to fuck constantly, maturbated to pictures of me, etc. (I’m average looking). It’s not about cash for all women.

  53. “this type of dislike directed toward women. Me? I think women are awesome.”

     

    You showed your hand on that one. I actually think they are individuals who should be judged on an individual basis based on their individual stances.

    Lovergirl’s trojan horse move here is so tiring. Come in like the cool girl and nudge, nudge, PUSH the topic to her own imperative involving victimhood/auto-pilot feminist rage etc. That wasn’t the topic. I would have left it alone until she starts spewing the ready-made and incredibly overblown stats on the issue.

     

  54. I wasn’t aware that this was a popularity contest or that there was a “cool” group to belong to. I mistook it as a mature discussion about a serious topic, among adults. My bad…

  55. In any case, lets say every prostitute is really treated like a princess, high class and making exorbitant amounts of money. Plus her clients are all nice guys and so is her pimp, who gives her a fair share. Or maybe she doesn’t even need one, because there is no need for protection, since all the guys are nice men that wouldn’t hurt a fly. Say its even legal.

    Ok. From that prostitutes point of view, I would still have trouble respecting my clients. There would still be a part of me thinking, this guy is a simp. He has to pay me all this money for sex because he is beneath me.

    There is a huge difference in treating a woman to things out of your love and affection for her, once a relationship is established, and having to pay for her time and attention. Its one thing to be courteous and treat her to dinner beforehand. Its quite another to bend over backwards and spend $300 on dinner on the first date. By paying for sex upfront you have already positioned yourself as lower on the totem pole than her. You have lost her respect and for women to respect a man is necessary if she really likes him. Anything else is an act.

  56. You didn’t recognize a ‘discussion’ about a ‘topic’ at all. You co-opted it and shifted it to your own interests almost immediately.

     

    Your take on the prostitute’s POV is interesting, really. But I’ll stick to my own pov when I indulge and it’s limited to a physical fascination for young women’s bodies. It doesn’t really offer me anything emotionally and that is fine with me.

     

    I’ll survive being ‘lower on the totem pole’ as long as she lowers herself on my totem pole.

  57. Hiring a prostitute can be ideal for a man with no desire for a relationship with a woman. Non-pair bonding men can get excellent sexual satisfaction from a sex worker and not have to pretend like they want a relationship from a non-professional in order to get sex. Johns don’t care what the prostitutes think of them. I hope prostitution decriminalization spreads to even more countries as it provides a wonderful outlet for male sexual freedom and independence.

  58. In any case, lets say every prostitute is really treated like a princess, high class and making exorbitant amounts of money. Plus her clients are all nice guys and so is her pimp, who gives her a fair share. Or maybe she doesn’t even need one, because there is no need for protection, since all the guys are nice men that wouldn’t hurt a fly. Say its even legal.

    For the most part that’s pretty much how it works here in Australia where it’s legal. Obviously there are asshole clients, but I have asshole clients too. You get that in every business. Generally speaking the real assholes get blacklisted and refused service. They actually have lists of bad clients they share, treat the wrong pro like crap, and alot of other girls will refuse your business.

    Ok. From that prostitutes point of view, I would still have trouble respecting my clients. There would still be a part of me thinking, this guy is a simp. He has to pay me all this money for sex because he is beneath me.

    Some think like this, some don’t. Depends on the girl. Sometimes what happens (especially with some of the younger more attractive clients and a pro who is less experienced), is the lines between client/fwb can become blurred. Plenty of these professional relationships go from paid to unpaid if the girl is attracted.

    There is a huge difference in treating a woman to things out of your love and affection for her, once a relationship is established, and having to pay for her time and attention. Its one thing to be courteous and treat her to dinner beforehand. Its quite another to bend over backwards and spend $300 on dinner on the first date. By paying for sex upfront you have already positioned yourself as lower on the totem pole than her. You have lost her respect and for women to respect a man is necessary if she really likes him. Anything else is an act.

    I have a friend who escorts and she actually had a client come to her who she’d had a personal relationship with before. They’d originally hooked up through tinder and were FWB’s for a time. Then a while after it ended he ended up coming back as a paid client after he saw her escort advertisement. The opposite has also occurred, where someone she was seeing professionally become an FWB/BF. So it really depends on the girl.

    Some girls hate their clients, and some just hate men in general and only see women in their personal lives, others don’t share this view.

  59. “Hiring a prostitute can be ideal for a man with no desire for a relationship with a woman.”

    Yup. It’s incredibly refreshing to be able to go lovey dovey if you want, and after that session’s over, ain’t gotta do shit. Ain’t gotta spin the plates ya know what I’m sayin. And where she doesn’t expect shit afterwards either.

    Being able to express myself in that way, but in extremely short doses, without the actual traditional relationship attachment is worth the money to me.

    I don’t always care about having a LTR and I’m not gonna even cuddle with FB‘s because they’re gonna fucking think I’m falling in love with them.

  60. I have no problem paying a bitch to act. Some of them can actually be good actresses. But it’s about ME having an outlet.

    It’s like loving guns, but not wanting to actually shoot people or join the military so you go to a shooting range.

  61. Another great example is like racing your car on a track. I can go fast and actually USE my car and push it more to its limits without having to worry about colliding with other drivers or getting fucking speeding tickets.

    As for people who are pointing out the negatives of prostitution. As many have stated. It’s ALREADY ILLEGAL and that bad shit is STILL happening.

    This is why it’s important to differentiate from the actual word “prostitution” because with it comes too much negative association.

    This is also why people like me take the time to focus on escorts, professionals.

  62. Yeah. A lot of people automatically compare it to a traditional romance and point out how it’s different, as if that’s some fault in the escort-using life that it doesn’t end up as the same thing. They’re not the same and once you indulge, you start to understand that. There are different benefits. One example is when I lived in China. A lot of young women were interested in me but they are very nice, good, naive people. To date them, means they will often start to fall for you and they will think all the little plays mean so much more than you are intending them to mean. You bang an innocent, decent Chinese girl and then dump her and she is in a world of hurt. I know this will get jeered at, but I don’t like to deceive or hurt women. So for me, to pick up a party girl/escort is a lot better than to fake that I want a relationship with some innocent young woman. Most foreigners deceive in Asia, fake like it’s real and bail, hurting some decent women pretty badly. I  can avoid that whole shitshow with escorts. Or by telling serious party girls that I’m married and just want to some fun spending money on them for a few days. That’s another angle

     

    But back home, I am not nearly as popular. When I’m home and my only outlet for women are the ones I can date/pickup etc puts me in a highly stressed state and brings me back to some very dark times in my life as a beta-incel. The pressure is uncomfortable and the balance of power topples. You never know if you’ll go ten months without so much as touching a women’s body. Simple access to physical beauty through escorts staves off a lot of harsh and anxiety ridden mental states that I NEVER want to return to. I never want to be the guy who is frustrated and deprived from women’s bodies. I hate the physical hell of it and the frustration can flourish inside you and get downright toxic. No joke. A six month dry spell is hell on your physiology. I never suffer like that with escort access. If I see a nice ass or some cleavage, then I just enjoy it, knowing I can get that whenever I want to hook up with an escort. I enjoy T and A, it’s not something that torments me. A flash of great cleavage to an incel (who either can’t or won’t use escorts) can be hellishly painful.

  63. I totally get that China girl thing. But even here in LA, bitches fall in love with me left and right. Yoga, any classes I take, locations I frequent. I’m pretty fucking attractive, and I’m the kind of guy who exudes a sense of ease and confidence and is just normally happy fun uninhibited and is a quick learner with bomb talent and work ethic (which becomes obvious in the various classes I take). For this, women crush on me HARD. Even women who I can tell are normally bitches turn into sweet kitty kats off the bat when they’re facing me. So much so it WEIRDS ME OUT. Because I know they want to lock me down. Even when I purposefully act like a dick. They suck that shit up. I mean, I actually think it’s fucking hilarious, but still.

    I actually feel the NEED TO HAVE to resort to online dating and escort use because I often times don’t WANT relationships (and I also don’t like going to fucking clubs, parties, raves and shit). Finding women who want to be in relationships with me is EASY. I just don’t want all the extra shit that comes with managing it. But at the same time, I also don’t always want to keep resisting my desire to do things even so simple as cuddling.

    Before I discovered escorts, I felt stuck between those two. The factor of payment being in the equation makes things perfect because it’s a constant reminder. I turn down freebies and INSIST on paying whenever they offer. I accept the discounts though lmao.

  64. Have you ever estimated how much time is required for your dating system for a noob? It’d be interesting to compare the total cost (money + time) for the different options.

  65. I am mostly in agreement with WolfOfGeorgeStreet here.

    BD seems to be the one that has a blind spot:

    Example: It is hereby illegal to give money in any way (cash, bank transfer, PayPal, etc), for any reason, to any woman who has sex with you (and they would have 10 pages of legalese defining exactly what “sex” means, vaginal intercourse, oral sex, etc),who does not live with you full time, whom you met on an internet site. It is also illegal to give gifts to such a person totaling more than $100, in current market values, per month…etc

    The above literally would make 90%+ of all traditional non-cohabitating boyfriend/girlfriend relationships illegal. You also made match.com, jdate.com, eharmony.com, pof.com, tinder, and every other form of dating illegal in the vast majority of cases.

    Now clearly since there is probably a 10% chance our insane country might decide to deport all the Mexicans and Muslims in the next few years, ANYTHING is technically possible.

    But this all misses the bigger point IMO. A significant part of what women find attractive in a man is his financial resources. A big bank account is the male equivalent to a great pair of tits on a woman. Show me a 25-30 year old woman that starts dating a new guy that doesn’t mention his career and/or career prospects within 5 minutes of telling her friends or family about him. The issue is that for the vast majority of women that cannot afford the lifestyle for themselves that they desire, they require a man to provide for them. This is probably 65% of women. More like 85% if you include the cost of having and raising children. But no women wants to be thought of as a gold digger, sugar baby, prostitute or call girl. Women want a guy that will provide for her BUT WILL ALMOST NEVER SAY THAT IS WHAT SHE WANTS. Because to do so would show her to be a gold digger. So if you are reasonably successful it simply improves where on the supply and demand curve you sit. You basically just got a great pair of tits. And like a great pair of tits, while it can help attract a man it isn’t enough if that’s all you have is a great rack.

    If all you have to offer a women is money / lifestyle / security then that is what she will value you for. Women also desire a man that is smarter, wiser and in general more together then she is. High value women value high value men. Women in general value high value men. This point ties into the comments that all sound like “rich guys ruining it for the rest of us.” This is ridiculous. Over the past 10 years my income has increased enormously and my cost of being with smart, interesting, young, beautiful women has dropped by orders of magnitude. For the guy on the shitty end of the supply and demand curve, he is fucked regardless.

    And yes, I have come across the a small minority of woman (maybe 1 in 50 at most) that because she is young and smoking hot but has little else going for her and has previously been with a rich dude before has very high expectations. I call these girls high “gold digger tendency” women. Honestly I don’t blame them. They have a 10-year window to maximize their lifestyle and they shouldn’t waste it because life is gonna kick them in the teeth pretty hard later in life.

    Women want to be with a provider (in a relationship) but very few will admit it. Most men want to be with the most beautiful women in the room and are willing to pay for the privilege either directly or indirectly. Neither side wants to admit it. It is actually hilarious when you really stop and think about it. Sure, some women will be totally Machiavellian about it and say shit like “I want $300 because that’s why my gf gets” but to say or even imply that is to label herself a hooker. Legal or illegal, 90% of women don’t want to be seen that way.

    Another place where this is easy to see is in the “boating scene” around the country. Most big cities have a lake or similar large body of water where rich guys with boats go. What you see on them is just a microcosm of what I am talking about. Every boat has a 5:1 ratio of women to men. Average age of the women around 23. Average age of the men is around 40. These women aren’t being paid. The guys aren’t guaranteed to get laid with them. But make no mistake about it this is a transaction just like fee for services.

    I don’t know if prostitution will become legal or not, but so long as there are broke ass, beautiful young women (the youngest and most beautiful are by definition the most broke) who cannot provide for their lifestyle and rich guys that love to be with young beautiful women little will change.

    I will leave you with the immortal words of Kanye West.

    Now I ain’t sayin’ she a gold digger
    But she ain’t messin’ with no broke niggas

  66. Maldek:

    “I’d sleep with 100 morbidly obese women before I sleep with even one perfect 10 prostitute.”

    Have fun.

    Well obviously this choice doesn’t apply to me (thank god), as I am pretty happy with my sex life. I’m currently in an open relationship with a personal 10 (although she’s probably a 7 by objective standards, but why should I care about other men’s standards?). But yes, if I were an omega male loser (as I was 15 years ago), I’d definitely take a genuine sexual experience over a fake one. My second choice would be celibacy. My third would be a prostitute.

    One could get the impression you are a selfish ass with very little understanding how the majority of your fellow males struggle with women. I may be in a sweet spot now that I am in my 40s but i can remember how it was 25 years ago. Moreover I do have friends, buddies and even family who are low in the male SMV ladder. They suffer and they suffer a lot but yet our society relies on people like them.

    Spoken like a true bleeding heart socialist asking for sexual welfare on behalf of the “poor and downtrodden.” “Spare some pussy for my friend? I have 500 dollars. Can I get some pussy stamps?” Hahaha! What’s next? Government housing for losers who can’t get a job?

    Tell your friends to pull themselves up by their own sexual bootstraps and earn some genuine pussy, instead of cheating the sincere sexual market with cash. Fuck sexual welfare! Work hard, hit the gym, and become a sex creator instead!

    I do not look down on these guys. Thats the difference between you and me.

    Correct. That’s definitely a difference between a bleeding heart like you and a sexual capitalist like me. But there are many more differences between you and me. For example: You have a purity fetish when it comes to women, think most “good girls” should be “chaste” and “virginal,” while parasiting off of an innocent man’s bank account instead of getting her lazy ass a real fucking job, love “traditional marriage” and monogamy, are enthusiastic about slut shaming and puritanical sexual morality, and have a raging M/W complex.

    So I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree, although I am curious why you’re here in the seduction community instead of in Saudi Arabia if you want to have sex with women but hate women who love sex.

  67. Kaminsky:

    If you’re so bent out of shape over women then you need to leave the states. You can actually enjoy women from feminine countries (or guys with game in the states, I’ll take their word, but I’m long gone).

    I’m very sexually satisfied and happy in the states. And I’m skeptical about how you define “feminine.” To me, that just seems to be a code word for “conservative prude,” or “Disney princess wannabe.” No thanks. I prefer sexually experienced and open minded women who have their own money and careers. Any woman who tries to be a parasite gets kicked to the curb by me. And any Disney, sexually inexperienced, or sexually squeamish woman (which is usually what is meant by “feminine”) will likewise be kicked to the curb by me.

    I need a woman who is as sexually experienced as I am (preferably more so), knows what she’s doing in bed without me having to teach her, is a financially independent adult and not a dependent “feminine” child, and essentially treats sex like a man does. Fortunately, I’m in America which has a growing abundance of women just like that (haters call them “sluts”) who are doing a great job of bankrupting the gold diggers and “feminine” Disney cunts (at least as far as high value men are concerned).

    And women do have sexual supremacy. That’s a natural fact. Indulge it, don’t fight it.

    If the type of woman that I described above as my favorite (the so called “slut”) didn’t exist, I would take your advice and just accept female sexual supremacy. But she does exist. So why should I indulge in female sexual supremacy when sexually open minded women are offering sex for sex from a position of equality? As long as sexually open minded women exist, I can safely spit on the female supremacist gold diggers while being sexually satisfied at the same time.

    Banging a hundred obese women before you’d spend an afternoon with a 5’11” Chinese 18 year old with a perfect ass? Weird thought.

    Yes, but let me clarify. Those two are NOT my only choices because I’m in the West. I choose door #3: The physically hot AND sexually enlightened woman trading sex for sex. But yes, if we were to ever return to Maldek’s vision of 17th Century New England, my only choice (if I want to avoid Disney prudes) would be desperate obese pigs, or professional fakers, and I would choose the obese pigs. But again, right now, I choose option #3.

    Get away from the warzone of American women and indulge.

    I’m indulging right now. Open relationships with hot and open minded bisexuals are awesome. And I don’t have to pay any money (she has her own).

  68. Example: It is hereby illegal to give money in any way (cash, bank transfer, PayPal, etc), for any reason, to any woman who has sex with you (and they would have 10 pages of legalese defining exactly what “sex” means, vaginal intercourse, oral sex, etc),who does not live with you full time, whom you met on an internet site. It is also illegal to give gifts to such a person totaling more than $100, in current market values, per month…etc

    The above literally would make 90%+ of all traditional non-cohabitating boyfriend/girlfriend relationships illegal.

    Incorrect. Read it again. People living together would be exempted. People who didn’t meet on a dating site would be exempted. People like me would be exempted, because I meet women on dating sites but don’t pay them (buying a drink isn’t paying them, per the above). Etc.

    You also made match.com, jdate.com, eharmony.com, pof.com, tinder, and every other form of dating illegal in the vast majority of cases.

    No, because most men having sex with these women aren’t paying them cash. Paying for a date wouldn’t count (as long as it was under $100).

    You really need to work on your reading comprehension, Dawson. Your last several comments in the the last few threads are clearly misreading my very clear words. Maybe you’re just quickly scanning stuff and not reading it(?). Regardless of what you’re doing, please stop with the blatantly incorrect complaints about what I say. Consider this your last warning on this issue.

    (That makes two last warnings for you in two different areas; so you’re on very thin ice here.)

  69. @BD

    You are the one not reading:

    The above literally would make 90%+ of all traditional NON-COHABITATING boyfriend/girlfriend relationships illegal.

    Non-cohabitating = Not living together.

    No, because most men having sex with these women aren’t paying them cash. Paying for a date wouldn’t count (as long as it was under $100).

    Again my point was the vast majority of people at some point spend more than $100 with their female romantic partner.

    You seem to be the one “just quickly scanning stuff and not reading it” looking for something to get aggravated about.

  70. Non-cohabitating = Not living together.

    I stand corrected on that one, but the rest of the points I made stand.

    You seem to be the one “just quickly scanning stuff and not reading it” looking for something to get aggravated about.

    Then of all the people who have disagreed with me in this thread (and past recent threads) why do I only seem to be aggravated with you and no one else? Answer: Because you’re constantly making comments just to disagree and stir up shit for no reason, including when you must directly contradict what I say in order to do it. No other regular commenter does this on a regular basis except you. Go back and re-read the last 10-15 comments you’ve made on this blog if you’d like some examples. I get email about this from other readers/commenters here, so don’t I’m the only one who has noticed. Disagree with me all you want, but disagree with exactly what I say, not what you think I said. Your ice just got thinner.

  71. @Jack Outside the Box,

    There’s a new tag in the manosphere (new to me, at least) called The Only Real Man In The Room. It’s when a guy’s comments have much less to do with the subject at hand than with his own veiled (maybe only slightly veiled) status signalling. For some reason, your comments called that to mind.

    In so many ways, using escorts (if you’re comfortable with it) is a very useful tool these days to navigate gynocentrism. Your hostility towards it just drips with the FI.

  72. @Jack outside the box

    Men with self respect don’t go to prostitutes. Those who do are losers. They may not be losers in the financial sense, but make no mistake, these men are low self esteem losers (the equivalent of a morbidly obese woman).

    Excuse me? Just because sometimes I opt to order a pizza rather than make one does not mean I can’t make pizza. Likewise just because sometimes I opt to see an escort rather than take a girl on a date does not mean I’m a loser who can’t get laid. If I want to get laid I can do it with my wife, my current side girl (a model and beauty pageant contestant, not to brag but just to prove a point that I’m perfectly capable of sleeping with desirable women without paying), pitch dates to a new set of girls and go through the motions, or just slap down some cash and pay a pro. How exactly does this make me a low self esteem loser?

    Experiencing an actress who fakes it takes away the whole point of sex

    Speak for yourself. Depending on what mood I’m in, sometimes I’m in the mood for sex with a girl who wants to be there as much as me, and sometimes I just want to get off with a girl and don’t much care whether she’s enjoying it or not, sometimes I just want to be selfish.

    What’s next? Guys that masturbate are low self esteem losers that can’t get laid? LOL.

    Sorry, but in my eyes the low self esteem losers are the guys who absolutely need the validation of a girl in every sexual interaction they have purely to stroke their own ego’s (PUA forums are littered with these types, half the time I wonder if these guys actually like sex as much as they claim or just chase pussy to validate their own self worth). I get it when a guy needs to feel the girl want’s to be their in order to enjoy themselves, that’s totally understandable I too enjoy those sexual encounters more, but as soon as the reason for it is purely about stroking their own ego it’s a low self esteem act.

    I know damn well that I can get sex for ‘free’ from very hot, very desirable women but it does take alot of time and work (playing the numbers, going on dates etc.) and time is money, so I have no qualms about seeing a pro or just stroking one out to internet porn to save me the hassle when I’m just looking to quickly get off and then I can get back to work or spend that time indulging in other hobbies I enjoy.

  73. “purely to stroke their own ego’s (PUA forums are littered with these types, half the time I wonder if these guys actually like sex as much as they claim or just chase pussy to validate their own self worth)”

     

    I get some very weird vibes from some of the PUA guys too. There are some who are surprisingly femmy to me. They seem driven towards the ‘notch count’ which is narcissistic. As is the constant jump from 6 to 6 to 6, instead of maintaining something with a 9. Weird. It seems like they’re under pressure to constantly reassure themselves that they’re straight, frankly. I’ve known two hometown guys over the years who were femmes but who were able to simply go through an extraordinary amount of slightly above average women. They were faggy, bleached hair, DePeche Modey, if you will. They were fearless about rejection and I wondered if it was simply because women didn’t mean anything to them ultimately. Good for them for doing it the right way, but it seemed like something else was at play. Like there was a truth about themselves that they had to stay a few steps ahead of and did so via womanizing. Womanizing is not the same as enjoying women, at least for the sake of my post. Anyway, both of these guys got married and got depressed, one of them hooked on pills. One has had nearly suicidal spells. When the notch count is gone, a truth gets closer, maybe?  There is a well-known PUA duo who are EXACTLY like these two hometown femmes/womanizers. Mannerisms, everything. Like the act of being with a woman will never cease to be about 100% proving something instead of naturally enjoying it. A guy crapping the bed about this ‘self-esteem, loser’ stuff is along the same lines. Like he’s buried inside his own head when he’s with a woman.

     

    I guess I’ve shared enough, but escorts are simply a must-have in this gynocentric world. I fail to see how some nineteen year old’s silver dollars have anything whatsoever to do with my self-esteem or lack of it.

  74. @box guy

    “Spoken like a true bleeding heart socialist ” -> Calling me a socialist of any kind is an insult. But I will forgive you this one time for the sack of your past omega (” I was  omega male loser 15 years ago)”.

    I do dislike all types of goverment wellfare programs as it does promote weakness. Even worse the weak have more chidren than the strong in our wicked world. The movie “Idiocracy” is a great example where we are heading.

    I dont like this outlook and do promote the idea of having as many children as you can afford with the highest quality woman you can get.

    “For example: You have a purity fetish when it comes to women, think most “good girls” should be “chaste” and “virginal,” while parasiting off of an innocent man’s bank account instead of getting her lazy ass a real fucking job, love “traditional marriage” and monogamy, are enthusiastic about slut shaming and puritanical sexual morality, and have a raging M/W complex.

    -> NOTHING of the above can be found in any of my postings. If the guy who writes about the benefits of legal prostitution is “puritanical sexual morality” to you you may want to have your brains checked. You sound like the same “male omega loser 15 years ago”. You are a troll.

  75. @Dawson Stone

    A significant part of what women find attractive in a man is his financial resources…. So if you are reasonably successful it simply improves where on the supply and demand curve you sit.

    Although these specific statements are largely correct, they only cover a small part of the truth.  Your comment is really missing the point, in one respect, entirely missing the point of both this blog and the “manosphere” more generally.
    Of course betas with big fat bank accounts attract women. But to think that that is the determining factor if whether a women sleeps with you is so wrong. The plain fact is that the large majority of new couplings take place between women who are horny and men they find attractive for non financial reasons.
    In particular, I actually consider it a significant DISADVANTAGE to be financially well off in initial pick up and hook up type things. Because financially well of guys press a completely different button in a woman’s brain — the boyfriend button. You seem to be missing the fact that she also has a “fuck me” button that is distinctly interfered with by financial resources.
    I can’t speak for BD, but I can speak for myself. I try not to spend a lot of money on a date not because I am a cheap ass, on the contrary, I like giving gifts and helping people out, but because doing so has a negative correlation with success.  Of course it depends on how you measure success, but if you measure it by CIP, then for sure.
    But we can talk about it all you like and it is all just talk. Go try it. Twenty women with cheapskate dates, twenty with fancy dates. Record your CIP rates, and get back to us. I’ve done it plenty and I know the answer already.

  76. @Frazer Orr

    To repeat what I said:

    If all you have to offer a women is money / lifestyle / security then that is what she will value you for. Women also desire a man that is smarter, wiser and in general more together then she is. High value women value high value men.

    I agree that women hook up with guys for many other reasons beside money.

    To be fair, there is a huge difference between a 23 year old guy that is very attractive, charming and in great shape and a more average looking 40+ year old guy. For the 23 year old good looking guy, success is much less important. For the 40+ year old guy it is extremely important. If a guy over 40 isn’t seen as financially successful when compared to a 20-something hot chick then she will look down on him. A 23-year old guy living at home with his parents can still get laid. A 45-year old guy living with his parents is a colossal loser and is going to have a very time with any chick.

    I do 100% agree that if done incorrectly being put into the “provider” box versus the “fun guy” box will destroy your average time to close and close rate. It is really quite easy to bypass being put into the provider box if you know what you are doing. Women are attracted to confidence, intelligence, wisdom, looks, power and success. A guy over 30 that isn’t successful probably isn’t that intelligent, wise or confident.

    But you are dead wrong that being well off harms your ability to close. If that’s the case you are doing something wrong. My first date close rate is over 85% and my average time to close is under 2 hours. I probably spend an average between $30-45 depending on the circumstances. More than reasonable IMO.

    I don’t do “fancy” first dates but I might meet for a drink at a classy bar near my apartment so I can segue back to my place quickly. Sometimes we just meet at my place for a drink and then it is even easier.

  77. Maldek:

    Calling me a socialist of any kind is an insult.

    Yes it is.

    NOTHING of the above can be found in any of my postings. If the guy who writes about the benefits of legal prostitution is “puritanical sexual morality” to you you may want to have your brains checked.

    If you actually believe this, then you are simply blind to the full implications of your own beliefs.

    The old conservative Disney idea of puritanical sexual morality dictates that men, and only men, are straight, whereas women are asexual, and therefore, should rightfully get paid for sex. This disgusting belief is the origin of slut shaming – if she enjoys sex for free than she has no respect for herself because women are asexual and only men are straight. I actually heard a Christian minister once say that he has more respect for prostitutes than for “sluts” because “at least the prostitute gets paid” whereas the “slut” apparently gets nothing out of it.

    Now, the old conservative belief in female sexual purity (asexuality) begins with Disney gold diggers at the top (respectable conservative house wives) who give their husbands sex in exchange for a lifetime of financial provisioning (because they are supposedly asexuals), all the way down to the common street walking prostitute who fucks men for money (thus reinforcing the “women are asexuals” conservative/religious paradigm as well).

    The reason the “respectable religious house wives (a.k.a. top whores)” hate the common streetwalking whores is because the common streetwalking whores are selling the same thing for a much cheaper price, thus preventing the conservative sisterhood from inflating its own prices. But the principle is the same regardless of whether we are dealing with a Disney princess or a streetwalker!

    The chivalrous, conservative, and alpha male 1.0 principle (the same principle that upholds traditional monogamous marriage) is that – men are heterosexuals and women are asexual Madonnas. Prostitutes do not contradict this puritanical principle – they merely cheapen the price.

    So, if you’re in favor of prostitution (which you are), just like if you’re in favor of traditional monogamous marriage (which you are), you are a purity fetishist, at least when it comes to the cultural norms that you advocate. I haven’t slandered you in any way. I’m simply opening your eyes to the full implications of your own beliefs. You’re welcome.

    I reject that entire “men are straight while women are asexual” paradigm, and I will fight anyone who advocates for it, whether it’s someone who advocates for prostitution (like you), or traditional monogamous marriage (like you), which is high class prostitution.

    Instead, I believe that both men AND women are straight, which takes away all philosophical leverage from the woman. Now all a guy has to do is become an alpha 2.0 and he’ll take away her practical leverage as well.

     

     

  78. Hey Maldek, you also wrote this:

    This is the basic foundation, marriage was built on. In return, the man would take responsibility for his wife. Never dump her. Keep her save and well fed even in old age. In our society this contract would limit the males to one woman so other males (of lower rank) would get their very own woman too. Worked for 1000s of years. Until socialism raised its ugly head.

    In our modern age – at least in the US and most parts of europe – the modern and strong women work nowadays. They earn money. They can rely on a strong and big goverment and its laws to protect them. They no longer need the man as they did in the past

    So here, you’re implying that women making their own money is a bad thing. This further solidifies my accusation that you’re a purity nut. If you wish to abolish the gender neutral economy, would you care to explain to me how women can be sexually liberated if their sexual urges come into conflict with their financial needs? Under your vision, women would have to start looking for a monogamous husband at age 18 in order to avoid starvation. How can women (and therefore, men) be sexually liberated, unless we have a gender neutral economy?

    I called you a sexual purity enthusiast (at least as far as females are concerned) because that conclusion is inescapable considering your traditional monogamy and gender based economy beliefs. I therefore stand by all my accusations.

  79. It’s been said, not by me but by many others, that “all” women are prostitutes.

    That’s because they are.

    The women we callprostitutes are the ones that demand direct payment of cash for sex. The women who demand cash paid to a restaurant or bar for sex are called normal. The women who demand cash paid to restaurants, grocery stores, and clothing stores on a regular basis for sex are called girlfriends. The women who demand their bills paid and their kids taken care of for sex (at least for a while before they get bored) are called wives.

    Sex is transactional, always has been, always will be. Okay.

    Regardless, the saying goes, all of these women are prostitutes. The only women who aren’t prostitutes are the ones who have sex with you for no payment at all, because they love sex. Right-wingers have a word for that type of woman that I won’t use, because I love these women andwant more of them in society, not less. (If you’d like to see a great speech on this topic, Johnny Soporno has a great one here.)

    Sluts. Like you said, making something illegal doesn’t make it go away. If you don’t call them sluts, they don’t become girls that give out free favors and yet magically aren’t sluts. That’s blue pill thinking, which you are famous for.

    Sluts are proud of who they are. Who are you to shame them by denying them the entitlement that they’ve worked so hard for?

    Also, calling a girl a slut doesn’t automatically make anyone a right-winger. I’m objective and apolitical. I refuse to take sides with people that aren’t on my side. I am the only person on my side. That’s red pill thinking. You should look into it.

    No sex comes for free. Ever. Even if you’re not paying her with cash, you’re giving her time and attention. If you’re a high-value male, that is more valuable than even cold hard cash to a girl.

    DoI believe this? Only somewhat. To say that all women are prostitutes might be technically correct but it’s also an oversimplification.

    Now you’re stepping into white knight territory.

    It’s not an oversimplification. It’s her instinct. There’s nothing wrong with it.

    This doesn’t account for the fact that as men, we have strong protective, paternal instincts. Welike to take care of people.

    We do? Since when do you speak for all of us? Who made you mouthpiece for humanity?

    I took care of my parents for decades longer than I ever intended. Did I like watching my mother have a complete nervous breakdown and literally go insane over my sister’s insatiable drug addiction? FUCK NO.

    When I really care for one special woman, Iwant to take care of her, to a degree at least. It’s a masculine trait.

    No, it’s the very definition of beta: provider. It was masculine 50+ years ago when it was fairly common to see men with both beta AND alpha traits. What you’re overlooking is that girls can take care of themselves now. They don’t NEED us to take care of them. They need a jacked up asshole made of pure testosterone that obliterates their holes.

    I don’t view this as her being a prostitute, because I want to take care of her.

    Your “view” doesn’t mean shit. She is what she is.

    Do you even realize that you just called yourself Captain Save-A-Ho?

    Granted, most beta males and even many high-income Alpha Male 1.0s way overdo this, and it’sa huge problem that damages all men. But to a degree wanting to take care of one special woman in your life I think is okay as long as you don’t go crazy. It may even be healthy for your masculinity.

    No. WANTING that is not okay. You either do it or you don’t.

    Taking care of someone is a FAR more difficult undertaking than a man’s romanticized gut reaction makes him think. THAT is the problem that girls (and myself) have with betas. It is not something to be taken lightly.

    Keep dropping those blue pills. I bet that bed of yours looks awfully inviting. Zzzzzzz…

     

  80. WolfofGeorgeStreet:

     How exactly does this make me a low self esteem loser?

    See my response to Maldek above. Paying a woman for sex implies that she is more valuable than you, whereas your penis seems to be worthless to her at best and a burden that you must pay her to accept at worst. This doesn’t denote high self esteem on the part of the man.

    If you’re just lazy because “time is money” or whatever, then so be it. But let’s not pretend that such laziness is healthy or preferable to genuine sex.

    Experiencing an actress who fakes it takes away the whole point of sex

    Speak for yourself. Depending on what mood I’m in, sometimes I’m in the mood for sex with a girl who wants to be there as much as me, and sometimes I just want to get off with a girl and don’t much care whether she’s enjoying it or not, sometimes I just want to be selfish.

    When I want to be selfish, I masturbate. I fail to see the difference between that and having sex with a faker or actress. But when I want to have sex, the woman better make me feel as if I’m incredible. That’s why I have always prided myself on being a good lover. If I receive even the slightest hint that she’s faking, I kick her out.

    What’s next? Guys that masturbate are low self esteem losers that can’t get laid? LOL.

    It depends. If a guy is a virgin, or is dissatisfied with his sex life and has anxiety approaching women, the first thing I will tell him to do is stop masturbating. He needs a testosterone boost which will give him enough aggression that will overwhelm his androgynous fear and anxiety. If masturbation is your Plan A, then yes, you’re a loser. If it’s just your occasional Plan B, then you’re fine. At least when you masturbate, you’re not contributing to a woman’s Disney Princess Syndrome by making her believe that sex is some kind of generous gift from her that should be compensated for with money.

    First this:

    Sorry, but in my eyes the low self esteem losers are the guys who absolutely need the validation of a girl in every sexual interaction they have purely to stroke their own ego’s (PUA forums are littered with these types, half the time I wonder if these guys actually like sex as much as they claim or just chase pussy to validate their own self worth).

    And then:

    I get it when a guy needs to feel the girl want’s to be their in order to enjoy themselves, that’s totally understandable

    Okay than. Glad we got that cleared up.

    I too enjoy those sexual encounters more, but as soon as the reason for it is purely about stroking their own ego it’s a low self esteem act.

    Sigh. Fine, than how about I say that, like you, I too enjoy those sexual encounters more than when she isn’t enjoying herself. But when she isn’t, I’d rather masturbate because if it’s not good for her, then it’s not good for me. If that makes me “low self esteem” so be it.

    I know damn well that I can get sex for ‘free’ from very hot, very desirable women but it does take alot of time and work (playing the numbers, going on dates etc.) and time is money,

    That’s why, like BD, I prefer a regular harem.

     

  81. That’s blue pill thinking, which you are famous for.

    Really? How exactly am I famous for blue pill thinking? Please answer very specifically, if you don’t want to be banned from here as a troll.

    How does the fact I love sluts make me blue pill? Again, give me a specific answer, please. Can’t wait to hear it.

    No sex comes for free. Ever. Even if you’re not paying her with cash, you’re giving her time and attention. If you’re a high-value male, that is more valuable than even cold hard cash to a girl.

    Agree.

    Since when do you speak for all of us? Who made you mouthpiece for humanity?

    I can state facts that apply to most human beings without “speaking for humanity.” So can you.

    I can say, “Men don’t do long-term monogamy because eventually they’ll fuck someone else,” and that’s a fact. Am I “speaking for all men” when I state that fact? No. But the fact still stands. And yes, most men like to take care of a woman in some way. It’s biological. Fact.

    If you hate that fact, that’s fine, but it’s still a fact. Are there exceptions to this? Of course; that’s always true of anything I or anyone else says. Still doesn’t change the fact.

    No, it’s the very definition of beta: provider.

    Go the dictionary and look up a new word: “degree.” Beta would be a guy who marries a woman, pays all of her bills, pays all of her debts, etc. Beta would not be an Alpha who has sex with tons of women very quickly by by going out on first dates that occasionally cost him $15. Calling the first guy a beta or a provider would be accurate. Calling the second guy one would be silly. Again, it’s an issue of degree.

    No. WANTING that is not okay. You either do it or you don’t.

    And its confirmed: for some bizarre reason you don’t understand the word “degree.” I suggest you look it up. You’re being Mr. Everything Black and White and if You Don’t Agree With Me 100% You SUCK!, and that’s not how the world works. (Though I agree it would be nice if it did.)

    I bet that bed of yours looks awfully inviting. Zzzzzzz…

    Yeah, you sound sooooo happy. Let’s see…would I rather be you or me? Hmmm, let me think…

  82. “But when I want to have sex, the woman better make me feel as if I’m incredible. That’s why I have always prided myself on being a good lover. If I receive even the slightest hint that she’s faking, I kick her out.”

     

    Okay JOTB, there you are in bold. You are much more needy in terms of validation than your adversaries here and that’s what this comes down to. Those are your words in bold, mind you. After all that you’ve said, I see you as a guy who is way overloaded on the ego/approval/validation aspect of women. That’s blue pill womanizing. Some of us have moved on. A few hours with a 19 year old bobbling around in lingerie and then back to reading a classic with a single malt in hand. All that the rest of us are saying is that we’re more or less finished with the approval aspect of women to at least some degree. I’m done, for example. No more hoop-jumping. My focus is on MY hobbies and the things I want to learn. Ironically, it makes me more attractive but that’s another post.

    I’m middle-age, not wealthy and normal looking. For me to find a way to access modelesque 20 years outside of the escort world would be a massive undertaking and likely impossible. It would require an obsessive focus at the very least. Instead, I pay, indulge in ideal female physicality for an hour or two, and get back to my work/hobbies. I have incredible memories of some physically phenomenal young women. Yeah I paid. Who cares?  And as for game, that’s all good. I do think the drama of the hunt and close ramps up the excitement much more than escorts. I try it sometimes too but often find I’ve drained 5 escort sessions worth of money before I even know where I’m at. I don’t live in Western society and things can be different before you give me the “I use game and close in 6 minutes max” stuff.

    But being a hard and fast non-paying pua type might leave a guy with a succession of sevens at best. I want freaks. Chinese girls with toothpick arms and huge, bobbling naturals. Yeah they’re rare, but not so rare of in the world of escorts. Or a towering, 20 year old, light skinned African girl with double E’s and a rap-video bubble butt. The list goes on. I like body parts that are literally breath taking, not a ‘hottie’ in the US (which usually means little more than ‘not obese’)  I like physically phenomenal women and to think I could pull that off in the Northwest is laughable. If other guys can, they can.

  83. Yeah, that whole response comes across as defensive and overly-attached to your OWN opinion. It causes me to question how many of the accusations you make are projections. Is this how you always react to criticism? The banhammer? Dictionaries? Name-calling? “You wish you were me!” If so, that’s pretty weak.

    Ban me or don’t, I don’t give a shit. Either way, I still don’t think you are a red pill. The simple fact that you allow girls to post is a pretty solid indicator. You don’t talk about Fight Club.

    I love sluts too. Doesn’t mean I want to be the male equivalent.

    Whatever, I’ve got shit to do.

  84. I answered every point you made, and when I asked you to back up just one of your points (that I am “famous for teaching blue pill advice”), you couldn’t. Thanks for playing.

  85. these women are going to declare that sugar daddy sites/services are “prostitution” (which they technically are).

    There’s nothing technical about it. It is what it is, and what it is is exactly what you think it is.

  86. Is there any data in countries where prostitution is legal that shows more people have/get STD’s from it being legal?

    There are plenty of studies on this.  I’m lazy so I’ll let you google it.  But studies show that legal prostitutes in countries where prostitution is legal and regulated have lower incidences of STI’s than the general population.  How is this possible?  1.) Mandatory condom usage and 2.) The prostitutes are constantly getting tested on a weekly or bi-weekly basis.  So if any of them do catch anything it is caught immediately and treated; if it can’t be treated (such as HIV) they’re no longer eligible to work as a legal prostitute.

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