Men have no idea how expensive being married is.

A reader recently reminded me of a post I made on a forum many years ago about a budget I once did shortly before my divorce. I’m going to explain what I did and what I learned. The results may surprise you.

About ten years ago, way back when I was married, I was in my final year of marriage and I started to realize that a divorce might actually happen. Being the beta male I was back then, I panicked. All those scary thoughts went through my head, the same thoughts most married men have when they think of divorce.

What if she takes my kids away from me and I never see them again? Oh no!

What if she takes all my money, leaving me with nothing? Horror!

What if she destroys my business I worked so hard to build? Aaaah!

What if I have to go work for McDonalds? OMG!

In order to calm down and get some rationality and objectivity, I fired up my trusty Microsoft Excel and extrapolated two hypothetical budgets. This was very easy, because I practice what I preach, and I had a detailed monthly budget of personal/family income and expenses that was very accurate from which to draw figures.

The first hypothetical budget was if my wife at the time vanished into thin air. Not that I got divorced, and not that she died or anything like that. It was a monthly budget that would be in place if she simply vanished, or if she was abducted by aliens, never to return. How would her absence change my monthly expenses?

I started going down the monthly expense line items. The first item at the top was my second biggest expense outside of taxes (which is always your biggest expense, because of this wonderful quasi-socialist, big-government world we live in). It was “house payment.”

At the time, I lived in a 3500 square foot, five bedroom, and three-car garage house on the top of the hill in the third most expensive neighborhood in the entire state. My monthly house payment was massive. It was beyond my comfort zone and I experienced a lot of stress every month trying to pay it on time.

The question was: If the wife was suddenly gone, would I continue to live here?

The answer was hell no. I would immediately sell that damn monster house and move into a modest three-bedroom house in a far less expensive neighborhood. (Which, by the way, is exactly what I did when I got divorced.) The only reason I was in that giant house was to satisfy the wife’s Disney desires. I couldn’t have cared less.

So I cut the “house payment” figure down to a much smaller number that would represent my new, smaller, cheaper house.

The next item on the list was my car payment. That wouldn’t change if the wife vanished, so I went onto the next item which was her car payment. If she vanished, I would of course sell the car and get rid of that, so I made that item zero.

The next item was monthly groceries. As an upper middle class family of four with the wife in charge of all groceries, this was a staggeringly huge number. She would often go grocery shopping with the kids and allow them to throw damn near whatever they wanted in the shopping cart. She would also regularly over-serve the kids with too much food, so just about every breakfast, lunch, and dinner she would throw lots of food away uneaten.

Would this happen if she was gone and I was in charge of groceries? Fuck no. The kids would have very little say in the junk food I would buy them, and I would only serve them in amounts they could eat so there would be little or no wastage. I would also go out of my way to shop at cheaper grocery stores, something the wife did usually but not always. So the grocery figure got knocked down.

On and on I went, through every item in my monthly budget, usually adjusting figures downward rather than upward.

What about income? Well, despite being a beta male at the time, I was living the right-wing Alpha Male 1.0’s dream at that point. I was a high-income, self-employed man with a full time, stay at home mom as a wife. She made no money, so there would be no income lost if she left. Just expenses.

What about child care? Surely if I suddenly had no wife, I would have to pay someone to watch my kids, right? Well, sort of. I was working at home by that time, had a flexible schedule and the kids spent most of their day in school. My family would also help out watching the kids if needed. So some childcare would have to be budgeted for, but not much. I made sure to account for this in this hypothetical budget.

When I was all done, I finally had a total amount of money that I would save per month if the wife vanished. I don’t remember exactly what that figure was, but the number was HUGE. I think it was around $3,600 per month. $3,600 per month that I would save by not being married.

I was floored. I had no idea that being married was this expensive. I went through and double-checked my numbers. No change.

This was one of the events in my life that really made me re-evaluate what marriage meant. Could I really save $3,600 a month just by being single? Even as a single dad with two kids? It was almost unbelievable.

I suppose one could make the argument that if I was a big bad Alpha Male 1.0 at the time, I could have waved an iron fist and forbidden the wife from spending all that damn money, and that’s probably true to a degree. I still would have been spending a hell of a lot. I know penalty of married Alpha Male 1.0s and they spent shitloads of cash on their wives too.

Okay, I was only half done. Now it was time for my second hypothetical budget. For this budget, I painted the absolute worst case scenario. I pretended that we got divorced, and my attorney was a moron and her attorney was a genius. I pretended that the judge assigned to our case was a rabid, man-hating feminist who gave the wife literally everything she asked for and literally nothing I asked for. I made a monthly budget that assumed that I got financially raped in the divorce, across the board, using real-life possible numbers for debts, alimony, child support, and other expenses that I had acquired earlier from two divorce attorneys I had spoken to.

How would things look? This budget was much faster to come up with. It was simply some tweaking of the existing numbers from the “wife vanishes” spreadsheet and my original budget, and adding in some big expenses.

When I was done, I compared the total new expenses from the “rape divorce” spreadsheet to the “wife vanishes” spreadsheet.

I was shocked to find that the new monthly expenses I would incur from a horrible divorce were much lower than the amount of money I would save by not being married.

Again, I didn’t believe it. I went back and checked the numbers on both spreadsheets. Once again the numbers were clear. I don’t remember the exact figures, but the amount of new monthly expenses I would incur by going through the worst possible divorce were still far less than the amount of money I would save by no longer having or living with a wife.

In other words, even in the worst possible scenario, I would save money by getting divorced.

This didn’t account for legal costs of the divorce, or assets that I might loose in the divorce, but I figured at least 50% of those assets would go to pay her expenses anyway if we stayed married forever, which I’m sure they would have.

Suddenly I wasn’t quite as afraid of getting divorced. I had no idea I was spending so much money being married in the first place, and this fact changed everything, at least financially.

It came to pass that of course I did get divorced, and the actual divorce was no big deal. I ended up paying far less than my worst case scenario spreadsheet. I’ve seen a few people over the years say something like, “The only reason Blackdragon is against marriage because he got raped in a divorce.” Simply untrue. My divorce was very routine, very standard, with nothing unusual or horrible. Sure, I had to pay alimony, but compared to what I make it was no big deal, and I paid it off quite a while ago. My divorce was nothing like what many other divorced men went through. No massive legal bills. We had no custody battle or any of that stuff. She was pissed off, just like all wives are when they go through a divorce, but there was nothing out of the ordinary.

Moreover, once the temporary pain of the divorce was over, I was the happiest I had ever been in my life. Despite the temporary pain and financial expense, it was a win. A big one.

Sure, during that 1-2 years of the divorce, things were troublesome and chaotic, no question. But that was almost 10 years ago. Today I’m far, FAR beyond the monthly financial status I had during my marriage. I shudder to think how much financial stress I would still have if I had never gotten divorced. I am quite sure I would look about 15 years older than I do right now. To say nothing about being less fulfilled and happy.

For any of you married guys reading this, I would strongly recommend doing a hypothetical budget of how much money you would save if you weren’t married any more. Societal Programming hammers into us that having a wife somehow “saves you money” (because you don’t have to pay for a maid or daycare or something). Alright then, test that theory with real numbers. Do that budget. Once you do it, even if your wife brings in income, I think most of you would be very surprised how much money it’s costing you every month to keep that little lady around.

Men have no idea how expensive being married is.

66 Comments on “Being Married Is Very Expensive

  1. In theory, being married should save you money. You basically have a roommate that you have sex with and get some legal benefits (again, in theory). It’s crazy that she’s have to make about $60k a year before taxes just to pull her own weight. Did you at least voice your opinion when she was wasting all this money? And why didn’t she work once the kids were in school?

    On another note, I feel the house thing. I purposefully chose to live in a working class neighborhood in a low cost of living city, which will allow me to pay the house off after just a couple years (at the ripe old age of 25). My parents live in an upper-middle class neighborhood in a house that was too big for us even when my sister and I lived there. I’ve told them that selling the house and moving into a smaller one in my neighborhood would make it far easier for them to retire, but they rejected the idea.

  2. $43,200 in savings by NOT being married??? At this moment in time, I would like to thank my girlfriend for breaking up with me. If she happens to find someone who is willing to borrow tens of thousands of dollars to get married (Koreans take out loans for weddings), then by all means GO FOR IT. 🙂

  3. I’m just starting get out from under the financial 8 ball now, went through this myself and years later still can’t wrap my brain around the fact both of us worked and were broke most of the time. She left me with one child still at home and (the other moved back in shortly after) and some how I managed to scrap through on one paycheck with both kids with me full time. It’s almost 5 years for me now, one kid has flown the nest, the other will probably gone within the next year, which will sure lower my monthly expenses.

    The hard part though is improving one’s financial situation post divorce if it’s left you in the hole and you have very little wiggle room to take any advantage of opportunities that come along. To any younger man I suggest banking up a “F’ You” fund, with at least enough to cover a years expenses and hiding it away. That in place, in the event of any of life’s shit sandwiches thrown your way you’ll have some room to control your future rather than have to constantly react to financial emergencies that force you into a corner.

  4. To any younger man I suggest banking up a “F’ You” fund, with at least enough to cover a years expenses and hiding it away.

    I can definitely get on board with the one year “f” you fund. My peace of mind increased significantly when I got the point that if my income totally stopped I knew I’d have a year to get something else going.

    However…the hiding away part could be a problem. Not disclosing assets in a divorce can really come back to bite you. For one thing, it’s illegal to lie on the financial disclosure affidavit. For another, a judge might decide to punish you for your deceit by giving your ex the entire “f” you fund instead of just the half to which she might otherwise have been entitled.

  5. The best thing to happen to me was divorce.  Because of an economic turn down and an upgrade in my ex’s pension credits, I won everything.  Since her exit I have travelled the world, paid off the house, paid off 2 vehicles, made a pile in real estate, got lots of dividend income from investments.  She always asks the kids how much I am worth now.  The kids sort of know, but she has been through a few guys, one who tossed her axe handle wide ass to the curb 3 days before common law vesting,(I am writing from Canada).  She is now stuck with a guy who seems okay, but has no future, no income, and a reduced IQ, which would suit her.  Me, just did north America wide motorcycle trip, might buy a new Indian next year, might retire in 4 years.  Life is good, and lots of free cash all around.  The only thing I have to watch out for are gold diggers, and my daughter gives me great help in that department, she does not want her inheritance diminished by one dollar.

  6. It’s quite surprising to find out how many people aren’t saving money in marriage. Between shared rent, losing most of our travel costs, my budgeting and shopping around, his quitting his old job for a few months to find a better one and the fact my from-home business is finally pulling in a full-time salary on its own, we’re both living a much higher quality of life after two years cohabiting. And next year we get a tax break, child benefit (a universal benefit in England) and hopefully more passive income from my business. It looks odd to see people throwing money away instead of standing up for themselves and focusing on the future.

  7. Just a small bit of info on the “F” fund – I had purchased a bunch of junk silver and some PCGS slabbed St Gaudens – I disclosed them as cash on hand at face value – a Morgan or a Peace dollar is $1, but worth about $25 or so . . . so if you are building a fund, buying some junk silver may be an option

  8. I would change the title to ‘Being Married Could be Very Expensive’

    There are many examples of married people that have quite reasonable expenses.  At one point you agreed to all of the high costs listed in post, you just changed your mind latter on.  Similar to the way you have a non-monogamy conversation to begin a relationship you could have a similar modest living conversation and avoid the big bill but still be married.

     

  9. In theory, being married should save you money. You basically have a roommate that you have sex with and get some legal benefits (again, in theory).

    That’s correct if you’re both lower income and have no kids.

    If you make less than $30K a year, and she does too, and neither of you have kids any time soon, then yes, you can both experience a slight boost in lifestyle when you combine your incomes and live together.

    But if both make average or higher incomes, or the woman makes a low income but the man makes an average or higher income than she does, then he’s screwed (unless he’s an odd exception to the rule).

    Did you at least voice your opinion when she was wasting all this money? And why didn’t she work once the kids were in school?

    These are the kinds of questions I hear from younger men who’ve never been married. Go get married, wait past 3 years, then go back and re-read your questions above, and you’ll see how silly you sound.

    Do you really think I never voiced my opinion on how much money she was spending?

    More importantly, do think my voicing my opinion would have changed her long-term behavior in any meaningful way?

    Again, go co-habit with a woman, combine your finances, wait well past 3 years,  and you’ll see how this works.

    years later still can’t wrap my brain around the fact both of us worked and were broke most of the time

    Yes, this is typical. Even if the wife works full-time, the husband still never has any money at the end of the month for some magical reason. 🙂

    The best thing to happen to me was divorce.

    Agree. Getting a divorce was one of the top three best things to ever happen to me in my entire life (and I’m 43 years old).

    Though it would have been much better if I had been smart enough to never get legally married in the first place. Getting divorced is nothing to brag about; it’s imply the result of the stupid decision you made when you got married.

    we’re both living a much higher quality of life after two years cohabiting

    I believe YOU as the woman are living better, but I’m not sure about your live-in BF. I have a feeling if I went through the your finances and wrote up an expense report, you’d be doing much better than he is, and he may benefit financially if he moved out and lived on his own. (I could be wrong, I’m just stating what is most statistically likely).

  10. There are many examples of married people that have quite reasonable expenses.  At one point you agreed to all of the high costs listed in post, you just changed your mind latter on.  Similar to the way you have a non-monogamy conversation to begin a relationship you could have a similar modest living conversation and avoid the big bill but still be married.

    and

    “Being Married Is Very Expensive” …if you dont know what you are doing.

    You guys are using guy-logic rather than what statistically happens in the real world with real people.

    The type of marriage where the husband strategically and mercilessly budgets at all times, forever, to make sure he comes out ahead, and forces his submissive wife to obey, and the submissive wife actually does consistently obey on this for years and years into the marriage, and never changes her mind or her behaviors, even after the kids are born, represents perhaps less than 1 in 10 Western marriages.  Same goes for marriages where there’s a wife who doesn’t like spending money, or where the husband and wife both make super low incomes and never have kids; those are included in those 1 in 10.

    The other 9 in 10 (or perhaps 8 in 10) result in the man spending more money to be married, at least to some degree. (This assumes the marriage is not new, i.e. it’s more than three years old.) It’s how long-term TMM “works.”

    And no, I didn’t “agree” to the wife spending all this money and then suddenly one day I changed my mind. It slowly creeps up on you. Marriage and sexual monogamy slowly betaize you and make you lazy and complacent; I see it happen to even the strongest Alpha 1.0s all the time when they get married. You slowly stop paying as close attention to how much money is being spent. Only when you do an analysis like I did do you see what you’ve done.

    Again, it’s hard to describe this dynamic unless you’ve been monogamously co-habiting with a woman for more than three years with combined finances.

    This scenario indeed represents the vast majority of modern day (Western) marriages. Just like with monogamy, you can’t point to the exceptions to the rule and pretend they’re the norm.

    This article is named correctly.

  11. Again, go co-habit with a woman, combine your finances, wait well past 3 years,  and you’ll see how this works (unless you’re a raging Alpha Male 1.0).

    No thanks, I’m good 🙂

  12. Again, go co-habit with a woman, combine your finances, wait well past 3 years,  and you’ll see how this works.

    For example…

    Me (looking at the credit card statement): “Hey! What’s this $1,200 charge at the Coach Outlet!?”

    and…

    Me (saying nothing when her student loan payment for a degree she’s not using automatically clears the bank account every month.) 🙁

  13. No thanks, I’m good

    Yeah, you say that now as a guy in his early 20s. Let’s check back when you’re 45 and see if you’d tried mono-marriage by then.

    For example…

    Me (looking at the credit card statement): “Hey! What’s this $1,200 charge at the Coach Outlet!?”

    and…

    Me (saying nothing when her student loan payment for a degree she’s not using automatically clears the bank account every month.)

    PERFECT example. You nailed it.

    It’s not about being a beta pussy while your wife goes out and buys Coach bags with your wallet. It’s about the overall expenses you personally incur while being married, most of which you don’t even think about.

  14. What is it about getting older that’d make a guy want to get married? Right now I don’t see any reason to, and I don’t want kids so that wouldn’t “force” me into it (I even got a vasectomy). And in 10-20 years I’ll be even wiser than I am now, which should mean that I would understand how the world works even better and therefore view marriage even more negatively.

    So what’s the big difference between being 40 and being 25 that makes the 40-year-old want to get married and the 25-year-old not?

  15. Good article. Most people won’t end up saving near  this much though and most wives work by choice if not necessity.

    For average workers, around $15 (yes that is a typical wage in the US, now poverty central) its probably the only way to afford children a moderate amount of comfort and to pretend to be middle class.

    For the skilled workers and a lot of your readers  a back of the post calculation if probably 6k-12k a year, nothing to sneeze at but not nearly as much.

    Really if not spending is the goal don’t marry or have children, live at the lowest level of means you can feel safe, happy and comfortable at.  if you are self employed, save a certain amount but do not work more than you need to since every dime you make still feeds the machine.

    Its a kind of passive rebellion really, this system sucks so I’ll drop out as much as I can.  Its legal thus far and a heck of a lot safer than actual rebellion though I’m not sure how effective it is at changing things, if that’s even a goal.

    It certainly protects men from divorce rape though which is worth something.

     

  16. Regarding your big house, I think you are worse off now. Why? Because your big house was undoubtedly in a white neighborhood. That is an intangible that does not have monetary value. Living in a homogenous peaceful white area (with some high earning Asians thrown in) is a luxury in this day and age. The Left (with complicity from Republicans) has destroyed white middle and lower class areas through non-Euro immigration and with Section 8 housing. I would much rather deal with lower disposable income but live in a “whitetopia” then live in a cheaper house which will undoubtedly be racially mixed, closer to black or hispanic enclaves and higher in crime or crime risk. Plus square footage and acreage are nice things in and of themselves; ie “having space”. I would want a big multi acre house with minimum 4000 square feet in an all white neighborhood even if I were a single man. That to me is “freedom”.

     

  17. So what’s the big difference between being 40 and being 25 that makes the 40-year-old want to get married and the 25-year-old not?

    If you seriously have no idea as to the answer to that question, no answer I can give you will make sense to you. I could have a big conversation about that but it’s off-topic to the thread, and in the end you’d still say, “That won’t happen to me because I’m really smart!” thus wasting my time.

    If you think there’s no difference in pair-bonding mindset and SP between a 25 year-old and a 40 year-old, you’re welcome to that belief. Like I said, we’ll see what happens to you in 15 years when you’re no longer young.

    Regarding your big house, I think you are worse off now. Why? Because your big house was undoubtedly in a white neighborhood.

    My current house is in a (very) white, very safe, very quiet neighborhood. Moreover, my neighbors are less “up in my business” like they were when I lived in a more expensive neighborhood.

    Living in a homogenous peaceful white area (with some high earning Asians thrown in) is a luxury in this day and age.

    No it’s not. What a silly statement. I live in the Pacific Northwest; nothing but white people up here.

    I would much rather deal with lower disposable income but live in a “whitetopia” then live in a cheaper house which will undoubtedly be racially mixed, closer to black or hispanic enclaves and higher in crime or crime risk.

    You can live in a low-cost and safe neighborhood if you do your research and don’t mind moving to another region.

    Your contention is that low-cost automatically equals high crime. Utterly incorrect.

    Plus square footage and acreage are nice things in and of themselves; ie “having space”. I would want a big multi acre house with minimum 4000 square feet in an all white neighborhood even if I were a single man. That to me is “freedom”.

    It’s not freedom if you have to make a massive house payment and support a massive mortgage in order to live in your 4000 square foot house.

    Now if you’re independently wealthy and can buy a house like that cash, than that’s different. Or if you live waaaaaay out in a distant rural area (2+ hours from any major city) where you can get a large house like that for $30,000, that’s also different. But again, these would be the exceptions to the rule. The typical guy living in a 4000 sq. ft. home is paying a massive mortgage, and thus not free.

  18. Are we talking about what the vast majority of people do OR are we talking about what is a working roadmap?

    If we are talking about statistics, then yes everything you wrote seems to be true and valid. The vast majority of people are clueless beta males (or worse) who have no idea about money, no idea about women, no idea what it means to be happy and lead a working family unit.

    You called your younger self a beta. Betas get hot females (as in SMV 6,7,8) because they can provide something of material value. This is what a beta brings to the table; low to average genes spiced up with a big mansion and bankroll.

    It was beta to buy a house that was too expensive. A good leader will do what he thinks is right, what benefits HIM the most, not what pleases others. If you do things to please her, she will think less of you. To more “disney” you buy her, the less she will respect you as her man and leader. Once a woman loses respect its over. Sex will go downhill from this point on.

    More alpha => more fuxs

    More beta => more bugs

  19. Another fantastic article by Blackdragon. Wives certainly are expensive.

    I think I have a spouse that’s easier to work with. Maybe you don’t but if you do, here’s what I did to manage these expenses, so while heavy won’t feel quite so overpowering and irritating.

    My wife and I sat down and compared our goals. She wanted money to spend on the kids and to get things she thought they needed so their lives would be the perfect life she wanted for them. I wanted to save huge amounts of money, because I was basically still just a college kid at heart. So we decided how much money I  could save every month. I had that money transferred directly into a money market account, and then I invested the money. She wasn’t allowed to complain.  Then what was leftover went into the “waste this every month” account. I wasn’t allowed to criticize, or really even look at what was going on there. Believe it or not, this worked. We did this for decades and arguments over money and finance simply disappeared.

    Here’s the kicker. After some time, I was making more money and had already bumped up the savings number and I asked my wife if she wanted to bump up the “waste it every month” account. She said “No, I like to be a little lean on that.”

    This can work for you too! Divorce may be your only option, but don’t make it about the money.  And just giving in and spending what she wants doesn’t lead to happiness, it leads to piles of crap all over the house and thousands of dollars of wasted food. You may have to sell the idea, “college tuition”, “retirement” “vacation fund” could work. Make up your own, but if you can partner on this you will both be better off.

  20. Are we talking about what the vast majority of people do OR are we talking about what is a working roadmap?

    There is no specific roadmap that is reproducible, which is exactly why you didn’t lay one out (other than very general statements about being a leader).

    You’re a pro-monogamy Alpha Male 1.0. Like all pro-monogamy Alpha Male 1.0s, your “roadmap” for this problem is the exact same as your “roadmap” for making long-term monogamy working. Which is:

    1. Aggressively screen for a super-submissive woman.

    2. Marry her and spend the rest of your life correcting her, bossing her around, and running her life.

    3. Cross your fingers and hope that works for 40+ years, which it statistically it probably won’t.

    This is not a solution.

    The only “solution” to this problem is to never get legally married, never live with a woman without an enforceable co-habitation agreement, and never combine finances with a woman.

    Any other advice on this specific issue is a low-odds craps-shoot fantasy.

  21. On the Greg Fitzsimmons podcast, writer and producer Mike Gibbons told of a joke he made that then got turned into a tv show.

    The joke was:  After he got divorced (in real life), Gibbons was told by his lawyer that his wife now got half of everything he owned, and Gibbons pumped his fist and said, “Yeah!!!”  And the lawyer said, “I don’t think you understand, your wife gets half of everything.”

     

    To which he responded, “Of course I understand. This is great. I have never gotten half of what I made in my whole life!”

     

    It’s coming soon.

     

    http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/james-burrows-director-the-half-of-it-cbs-comedy-pilot-1201439755/

  22. I’ll step into the fray here.  Is marriage expensive? Depends. If you have a dual income household, with two equal earners and no kids, it’s probably not an issue. If you have 3 kids, 2 of whom are in daycare at the same time, dual income household, mortgage with high balance, etc., yeah, it’s expensive. If you have a household with kids and one income, it could be a living hell. If you’re married to a woman with no work skills nor work history other than Taco Bell, who never finished college or never utilized her degree, and who stays at home with the kids while you work (i.e., is unable to make enough income to justify paying for daycare; we working moms know the truth about the dreaded “stay at homes”), and apparently overspends her budget, yeah, that sucks. I get it. Maybe you’ve married the spoiled debutante who feels entitled to her luxuries. Perhaps this spoiled denizen is not the best partner to select for marriage, i.e., the woman that you will voluntarily legally bind yourself to, perhaps forever, if you have kids.

    However, this situation is not unique to men. Let me tell you about being the (at the time) wife of a guy with an equal level of education (Masters),  sort of employed when he feels like it (i.e., financial solvency completely dependent upon the wife/mother), in poor health, (i.e., obese, smoker, Type II diabetic, cardiac issues, colitis, etc.). Mind you, this is not the guy whom I married at 34. No, this was some other creature who emerged in his 40s to torment my world. The guy I married was healthy, normal weight, athletic (ex-football player), gainfully employed with major corporation, seemingly had sh*t together.

    After supporting this man through yet another bout of “sort-of” employment while he contemplated what he wanted to be when he grew up, I worked my LLC business plus two W2 jobs, and interestingly I still had to do laundry, clean, raise two kids, etc. I decided to get a divorce. Oh, and he cheated on me and has a long and sordid history in his marriages of doing so (found out later). Porn addiction. Verbally abusive. Born again evangelical Christian. I’m not making this up. What a winner, right?

    And, then, you have to deal with the insecurity in the male whose wife makes more than he does. That’s a fun one to deal with. Nothing quite like finding out that your (then) husband didn’t pay barely any federal taxes to make his income appear greater than it actually was (when he finally turns over his W2s) right before the Oct. 15th deadline (of course, I’m responsible for filing taxes), and you watch your refund evaporate right in front of your eyes. Good thing that I double paid my payroll taxes that year or we would have owed a large sum to the IRS.

    So, then you decide to divorce the dead and abusive weight. Your attorney tells you that you cannot file for divorce until he finds employment, or you are looking at a huge chunk of alimony on top of child support. Yeah, right? Guys, this is the WOMAN getting screwed, with the MAN seemingly almost on the dole. He gets attached to that teat and he will never go back to work. You languish in hell for a while longer while you pray that he finds work.

    My state literally has an online calculator tool where you input both your and your (to be ex) spouse’s income, and based on the disparity between the two, spits out a child support figure. It’s non-negotiable.  And better yet, the judge for our case is the very judge who pushed the state legislature to instill this law, including the calculator. I was looking at $2500 per month, just for child support. My attorney had to work hard to just get the alimony off the table, let alone child support.

    To get rid of the child support (by now, he had a full-time job with benefits, a bonus structure, car allowance, with a major corporation, why had this not happened before during the marriage, well he had a sugar momma to rely upon) I had to get my attorney to fight hard to throw out my 1099 income so that I wouldn’t owe quite so much in child support. My 1099 did get thrown out, however, my other income was still 50% higher than his income.

    So, to address this income “disparity” I then had to sign over the house to him to avoid paying child support for the next 16 years (I have a two year old. Yes, I am 46 almost 47, but hey, it happens.). This is the house where I made the down payment, paid the mortgage, put on an addition, etc. etc. Yes, I had to walk away with nothing.

    Tell me again how men always get the short end of the stick in divorce?

    If you want to be legally married to someone and not lose your shirt, marry someone with an education, established career, and the demonstrated capability to make a good salary. And for God’s sake, there is absolutely no reason to get married before 35 (particularly if you are a man). And, if you have kids, and one parent decides to “stay at home”  in lieu of going back to the drudgery of full-time work plus daycare expenses, and endless daycare sickness (both kids and you), put the agreement that you have for the “work at home” in writing, try to make it enforceable. Or, you will get screwed. I am living proof.

    Yes, I gained my liberty, and I am free to see whatever men I want to, but hell, what a price to pay. Oh, and I forgot to mention that I also had to hand over 50% of my 401K and IRA to this sloth, as per “family law” in my state.

    Bottom line, don’t get legally married. Don’t buy into the mirage that somehow this will make all the boo-boos of life golden. It won’t do a thing except lead to a 50% change or worse in the financial accounts of the spouse who worked harder during the marriage (not necessarily the man). Screw the freeloaders. Let them find another meal ticket, or guys, let these dead beat women languish at their $10 per hour job at Barnes and Noble. Hard to make a dent at the Coach store with that pay.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

  23. @JoeRichards: I don’t agree that “wives” are, per se, expensive, unless they make no substantive financial contribution to a household. And, no excuses from stay-at-homes about how they make a financial “contribution” somehow from driving the kids to soccer, doing the grocery shopping during weekday business hours, or supporting the PTO bake sale. “Stay-at-home” is code for “not employable in current job market” or “lacking marketable job skills” or just generally “no degree and not intelligent enough to work anywhere but retail” or “lacking motivation” to find suitable employment.  And, this condition is applicable to women as well as men. And, nothing is more annoying than the “stay-at-home” who revels in rubbing the “I am the golden parent” mantra into the working parent, who cannot be at the school assembly at 2:45 PM on a Wednesday.

    I will say from personal experience that children are expensive. No argument with that. Married or divorced, that’s the reality.

    If you marry a woman with no ambition nor drive to succeed in her career nor contribute to the financial security of herself nor her children, you kind of get what you sign up for guys.

    Trust me, “husbands” can be equally expensive and as difficult to dispense with as these dreaded parasitic “wives.”

    Gender is no discriminator when it comes to getting financially screwed from divorce.

     

     

  24. BD is dead on but the title could be “Having a monogamous female in your life is expensive”. Even just having a girlfriend costs any man more than if he was single. After a certain amount of months or years, all of a sudden they just expect you to pay for crap you would never pay for if they weren’t in your life. You have to live in a nice apartment in a nice “safe” neighborhood, you have to eat out more, you have to entertain them…..I think his point is valid no matter if you’re married or not, a monogamous long term woman is going to cost you. Imagine if straight guys married each other – there would be no industry of crazy expensive weddings, no crazy expensive diamond rings, one wouldn’t need a “big, safe” expensive SUV to schlep the kiddies around in…the list would go on and on.

  25. “Tell me again how men always get the short end of the stick in divorce?”
    Fortuna, what you experienced was the mere beginning of the push-back.

    As to the other points: once they are pair-bonded, women instinctively begin to feather the nest. Take the coolest, most bohemian hippie chick you like and marry her She will start buying crap with which to fill the house. It’s like a man putting on weight after getting married. It takes enormous self-discipline and most of all self-awareness to not play out these biological roles.

    What’s everyone’s thoughts on the notion of not having a joint account? Of paying your SAHM actual, folding cash? Women love to get money from men, physical tokens of value. It’s another one of those instinctive things.

     

  26. very good article, BD.

    my first marriage was not going well and i told Miss Thang that i was not going to keep on with things being like they are.  she beat me to the punch, emptied the joint account and filed in court.  man, that was the toughest time of my life.  being thousands in the hole will string a man out.  i was calling the corporate offices daily asking “you got my bounced check yet? what i have to do to make it good?”

    i got through it and it took a toll on me and i will never forget it.

    every married man should have an exit plan and an FU fund.  they should have all the important documents hid away or at least copies.  first thing her lawyer does is instruct her to bring in all the documents so they can start to salivate like Pablo’s dog on what youre worth and what they going to do..

  27. You basically summarized the marriage between my father and mother.  I learned since I was a kid, having a secular (atheist) East Coast Jewish mother, that if you are going to marry them you better have a stellar paycheck and good savings plan.  Growing up in the family I did made me never want to ever get married.   And, I would never get legally married to any woman in the Western world.  If I had a wife I would marry her overseas and I would keep her there.   My wife’s idea of luxury would be food, clothing and shelter and her being frugal and smart with money would be very sexy trait.  Nothing more unsexy than a slobby gold digger, burning up her idiotic husband’s hard earned paycheck.

  28. I believe YOU as the woman are living better, but I’m not sure about your live-in BF. I have a feeling if I went through the your finances and wrote up an expense report, you’d be doing much better than he is, and he may benefit financially if he moved out and lived on his own. (I could be wrong, I’m just stating what is most statistically likely).

    Actually, we keep accounts of everything. We’re both down £50-100/month in rent as we split the bill exactly. Because I can do the shopping during the day we’re spending a combined £40-50 a week on food and household goods rather than £60-80. Almost all food shopping and all fuel comes out of my cash-in-hand work, we only rarely need to take money from the bank to do it, more often we’re putting money into the bank accounts at the end of the week. The only thing we’re a bit up on is heating bills, but that’s more because the house is old than because we live together (my bills for Winter used to be identical to Summer and his only a bit higher). Still, we’re in December and still in profit on our bills this year, so… Any year where I make under a certain amount he will get a tax break, which is not important whilst I’m earning almost as much as him, but will make a big difference should the business go south or the first year of having a baby interfere much with my earnings.

    Plus, as I hate spending and hate being a burden (generations of welfare cheats in my family have driven me to a point of near phobia on that matter), I am reluctant to let him spend on me at all. But he is the only person I actually enjoy parting with my money for. So nobody else gets much if anything from me, but I will buy him drinks, treats, games, books, clothes and presents out of my money whenever I can. This year he couldn’t think of anything to get me for Christmas, but I have some presents piled up for him, and I’m actually pretty proud of that. The only issue is that it was making him sad so we decided to write off a couple of home improvements as my gifts. He’s happier now, so I think he just wants me to receive something. Despite all this, his savings aren’t the only ones piling up, so there must be some money magic going on there.

    We don’t have a shared bank account yet and hope we won’t need one, but if baby expenses are a bit on the random side we may want a joint savings account with direct debits set up so we can keep that budget under control. Then again, we both have rock solid savings now, so it’s not like it would be ruining our budget, it would just be rearranging it to prevent money leakage. Babies can apparently make you spend stupidly so having a hard limit would be important.

  29. It’s a huge financial risk to get legally married these days.

    “Nah, that’s a bunch of BS. This will never happen to meᵀᴹ because I know what I’m doingᵀᴹ!!!”

    Fast forward some years.

    Hey dude, how is it going? Long time no see. Sorry about your divorce, must be tough.

    “Man, I can’t stand not having a house anymore. I hate having no money and living with my mom without a proper place to see the kids. Can’t you spare your extra room just for a few months till I find something cheap?”

  30. once they are pair-bonded, women instinctively begin to feather the nest. Take the coolest, most bohemian hippie chick you like and marry her She will start buying crap with which to fill the house…..It takes enormous self-discipline and most of all self-awareness to not play out these biological roles.

    Absolutely correct. It’s biological. It doesn’t matter if she’s Not Like The Rest™.

    What’s everyone’s thoughts on the notion of not having a joint account? Of paying your SAHM actual, folding cash?

    If you insist on having a live-in OLTR (not a mono-marriage, those are insane) and you want to take care of your little lady, that is exactly what you should do.

    1. 100% separate finances, 100% separate accounts at all times. Next her ass if she bitches about this.

    2. When you want to give her money, pay by either handing her cash or bank transfer into her account.

    3. Put her on static budget and be very clear about your parameters. “You get $400 per month (or whatever your number is) from me and that’s it. If you spend it all by the end of the month, that’s your problem and you’ll have to wait until the 1st for more.”

    4. Kick her out of your house (following the co-habitation laws you already researched before she moved in) if she ever starts complaining about that arrangement.

  31. These are the kinds of questions I hear from younger men who’ve never been married. Go get married, wait past 3 years, then go back and re-read your questions above, and you’ll see how silly you sound.

    BD, I don’t want to get married and then wait 3 years to know the answer. Can’t you just tell us why your wife didn’t get a job, at least part time, after your kids were old enough to be in school all day?

    Let me tell you about being the (at the time) wife of a guy with an equal level of education (Masters), sort of employed when he feels like it (i.e., financial solvency completely dependent upon the wife/mother), in poor health, (i.e., obese, smoker, Type II diabetic, cardiac issues, colitis, etc.) Mind you, this is not the guy whom I married at 34. No, this was some other creature who emerged in his 40s to torment my world. The guy I married was healthy, normal weight, athletic (ex-football player), gainfully employed with major corporation, seemingly had sh*t together.

    I’m a girl and this…….is one of the many reasons why people should never get married!

  32. Can’t you just tell us why your wife didn’t get a job, at least part time, after your kids were old enough to be in school all day?

    Because she didn’t want to, even after I repeatedly told her she should. Not even for the money, but for her own happiness.

    This is what never-married people don’t understand: When you’ve been married for longer than three years, are fully monogamous, and don’t have a prenup signed, married women don’t do what they’re told. They do whatever the hell they want because they know they’ve got you by the balls. They’re in the driver’s seat, sexually and financially, and they know it. This is even worse if you’re a beta, but is also true if you’re a tough Alpha (you’ll just have more drama, but they still won’t do what they’re ordered to do).

    You tell them to do X. They say no. You can’t soft next them because you live with them, so you have no leverage there. They know you won’t divorce them (because you’ll lose money and full access to your kids), so you have no leverage there. You can’t go fuck another girl because it’s monogamous, so you have no leverage there.

    So all you can do argue and have a bunch of drama. And they still don’t do what they’re told. They don’t have to. In a TMM scenario in the Western world, the female is in complete control. That’s why most women want to get married so badly.

    Alpha Male 1.0s have guy-Disney that states that if they scream at their wife loudly enough, eventually she’ll bow and say “yes master” and do what she’s told. But in the Western world and in marriages older than three years, this almost never happens.

    It’s called marriage. That’s how it works. (Beyond the first three years anyway; prior to the first three years wives are often very sweet because they’re still in new-marriage NRE or new-baby NRE).

  33. The only way I would not sign a pre-nup is if I marry a rich woman..   In fact, I would hope in that case she would not want a pre-nup :p    I’m not against marriage if it is with a wealthy woman who wants to pay my way and I can be her man toy..     Sure, she may divorce me down the line, but I would never take a marriage like that serious anyhow.

    Sadly, my very attractive cousin married several man whores/man-toys who kept screwing her over and some even managed to swindle money out of her.   You would wonder why an attractive woman would constantly keep marrying losers who don’t work real jobs and would keep mooching off of her?   She kept dreaming of her unicorn prince/needy alpha , but always ended up getting shagged.

    I’m not saying she didn’t have it coming.  And, men who pull this off always inspire me.

  34. Alpha Male 1.0s have guy-Disney that states that if they scream at their wife loudly enough, eventually she’ll bow and say “yes master” and do what she’s told. But in the Western world and in marriages older than three years, this almost never happens.

    It’s called marriage. That’s how it works. (Beyond the first three years anyway; prior to the first three years wives are often very sweet because they’re still in new-marriage NRE or new-baby NRE).

    Outside of very insular Islamic, Mormon, Amish, etc societies or circles in the USA, you are 100% correct..     The problem is that we are indoctrinated to believe that women are superior to men and our modern, feministic society has wired our brains.   Men will live in the fantasy world of a submissive loving princess because they saw it in a movie, but they forget we live in the politically correct, modern , Western, demagoguery where our society dictates how we must think, act and reason or face a deep condemnation and be ostracized by our families and peers.  The last thing any man wants to be labelled as is a “horrible abuser”.  Considering the courts and society, as a whole, have a negative view on alpha males and men in general, you are almost GUILTY before being convicted of any crime.

    My personal beliefs, coming from my background, is that any marriage with a woman who will not live in submission to the man and honor him as the leader is doomed for failure.  In societies where men have full control and authority over their wives, the divorce rates are lower.  To say these marriages are not happy is speculative, because where on Earth are marriages happy?   What keeps these marriages and families from falling apart is a sense of structure, order, rules, regulations and a belief in a greater cause, whether it be esoteric or a strict set of ethics and principles to which must be adhered.

    The worst thing a man (or woman) could ever do is put their faith in another human being. Humans are doomed to fail you down the line. Put your faith in something greater and know you are your own best friend in almost all scenarios. A loving woman will not be a spoiled disney princess, but will be someone who is caring, nurturing to other people, not just yourself. If she doesn’t give a shit about other people and just spoils herself, why do you think she will suddenly give a shit about you?

    When I was in Africa, I saw a grandmother , who appeared in her 50s, who had to raise both her child (who still lived with her) and her grandchildren. Two of her grandchildren came from her daughter who died of AIDS. One grandchild was dying of AIDS (born with it) and the other was healthy. This was noble, loving and caring woman. She was the kindest women I ever met. She was not a beautiful disney princess, just a lady who put others before herself and loved G-d (she was a religious Christian). She also made sure to tell me she obeyed her husband because it was what her set of ethics and principles taught her to do. Rather than living for herself, she lived for a set of principles and ethics. For her that was her religion, but for others it can be some other greater good.

  35. You know, I’m starting to wonder how much you will write down to NRE to keep your angle… original NRE, marriage NRE, baby NRE… Why stop there? Why not holiday NRE, baby just went to school so there’s couples time NRE, moving house NRE, new job NRE, we went to an anime con NRE, we’ve hit a milestone in powerlifting NRE, getting it on at the festival because we can NRE?

    Your argument will eventually boil down to “people can’t be expected to do anything together or to marry people they wish to reproduce with or go places with, so forget about marriage”. But I guess that holds true for most people, as most people are boring apes that need a constant stream of mindless entertainment straight to the brain in order to forget how worthless their experience of life truly is. Any routine or productivity ruins that for them.

  36. And you think you are any different? Let’s see how long you will last in this relationship. And please don’t blame the guy. NRE is very short lived and only boring couples can stay together forever. Those who are ugly, know nothing about bettering their lives and keep on living their boring routines. This is not happiness even for them. They just wasted their entire lives.

    I know a guy who is veeeery boring barely speaks and he is ultra shy(not ugly though). He got married to a fat ugly and disgusting chick and he bosses him around. Yeah sure they might die together as a married couple. This is not what we are talking about here, we are talking about people who value themselves and have interesting personalities.

  37. My wife died three years and two days ago, after 43 years of marriage. After a few $ battles early in our marriage, ( Me: “We can’t afford that!” Her: “Sure we can, we just defer this payment and put it on the credit card, until we get our tax refund.” Me: “Well OK, I guess you’re just better with numbers than I am. We haven’t gone broke yet.”) I gave in and let her handle the checkbook.

    Forty three years of never having enough for extras, long hours in the grocery comparison shopping to save a nickel here or there, cancelled vacations, home made Christmas gifts.

    Three years after her death, I have a years income in savings, a stack of silver, a car I paid cash for, and fun money. All I did was give the hor$e$ away and plug a few leak$.

  38. Your argument will eventually boil down to “people can’t be expected to do anything together or to marry people they wish to reproduce with or go places with, so forget about marriage”.

    That’s not even close to my argument. My argument, and I’m right, is “the vast majority of humans eventually cheat or get divorced, so if you want to pair bond and/or have kids, do it without the legal procedure of marriage or the lifetime expectation of absolute sexual monogamy at all times.”

    I can tell by the style of your writing that you’re a strong, sexual woman. High divorce probability. On top of that, live in England where the spike in divorce rates is even worse than in the US. And you’re gleefully posting on a manosphere blog.

    This all means you’ll be divorced in several years. Not tomorrow. Not next year. But in a few years. Just watch. I’ll be right.

    Three years after her death, I have a years income in savings, a stack of silver, a car I paid cash for, and fun money.

    Haha! Strange how that works, isn’t it?

  39. But if you continually expand NRE to include everything that can possibly kindle the flame, eventually you’re just being dismissive of healthy relationships. Babies aren’t bad or cheating biology. Holidays aren’t bad or cheating biology. Picking up a shared hobby isn’t bad or cheating biology. Using porn together isn’t bad or cheating biology. Building a home isn’t bad or cheating biology. It’s just what you do when you want to spend a lifetime with someone. You actually make a life they’re inextricable from, you make room for them in your little corner of existence and worm your way into theirs. Hence wo/manosphere blogs. Why wouldn’t I want to improve myself? Why wouldn’t I want to read new information, try and see some of the male perspective, gain some knowledge about my contemporaries and why they act the way they do? My goal is being nothing short of perfect. And with a goal so impossible, at least I should make the effort. Especially when I see that he’s already broken all of my goals and climbing above them. I don’t want to be left in the dust.

    Your post was enlightening, as I’ve seen it play out when dependents are completely unemployed (most notably with both my parents). But the whole purpose of reading things like this is to explain why other people end up in a mess, detect my own flaws and kill my demons. Maybe the next interesting post won’t take, what is it, over a year to manifest, so I can learn and talk some more (jest).

  40. if you continually expand NRE to include everything that can possibly kindle the flame

    I don’t. There’s only 4 kinds of NRE. Holidays, hobbies, or porn have nothing whatsoever to do with NRE and I have no idea where the hell you got that notion. Read this for more specifics.

  41. Au contraire, doing things like going to new places together, sweating through the gym together and sharing and trying out kinks and interests creates a massive boost in bonding. If we didn’t do things like that, I suspect I would have dropped out of “NRE” before we even had sex, like happened with every other male I had a vague interest in prior to him. People can go one of five ways, in all relationships (including friends and family, coworkers, etc). They can be completely distant and separate, only see you once in a while and become boring in their distance, almost furniture-like. They can be completely distant and separate and gradually grate on you like a bad song on the radio. They can be very close, share everything and reveal their boring, empty core, showing that they do nothing, mean nothing and have nothing to say. They can be very close, share everything and prove themselves to be worthless and useless for any purpose as their ideologies, hobbies, interests and goals are fully isolated from yours, making them annoying. Or they can be very close, share everything and prove themselves useful and interesting, having a goal which is wholly compatible with yours and a mentality that mirrors yours, resulting in a lifelong friendship or, where there is sexual attraction, a relationship.

    You can get a little spark of interest, emotion and attraction (sexual or otherwise) from everyone. But only the last category continually reignites, kindles and fans the spark until it’s burning. When everything about someone makes you want to be a thousand times better and makes you feel inadequate and insufficient, when everything they say makes complete sense even if you don’t agree with it, when you can spend every hour of every day by their side and yet miss them when they go out shopping for  an hour, when everything you do together gives you the same butterflies as when you first held hands or kissed, when after years with them you feel like only days have passed since the first day but you subconsciously mark meeting them as the start of your life, when you think about where you will be in the future and they’re in every picture, when all you need to do is do a 30min squats workout or watch an episode of anime together to feel almost sick from excitement at being with them and wanting to hold them and squeeze them and not let go, when you still cry remembering the times when they would drive away and not be seen for two weeks… That only happens with a very few people. And it doesn’t just manifest, or happen for anyone. It’s a continual cycle of actions and emotions that slowly lifts someone above everyone else, where they start at a hundred percent and essentially reset the level so that a hundred percent is now the minimum. It gets better with the years.

    I think the biggest issue with it is that most people are incapable of keeping that level of devotion, trust and interest alive beyond a certain amount of time together. Over the years, days or even the hours, the vastest majority of people (all but one so far, in my case) either become boring or grate. Even extroverts and like-minded people start needing space from them or wanting to hurt them. And I don’t believe that there’s someone out there who would find these people interesting or fun. Other people make interacting so painful that I am constantly reminded of why Jon is a thousand times their superior. I think that if you’re the sort of person people get sick of, take for granted or get annoyed at, you’re probably doomed to never experience years of devotion.

  42. Regarding renewable NRE: Let’s not forget the post battle “Make up sex”. In 43 years, we had a lot of that.

  43. Getting married isn’t supposed to be some kind of financial move.  It’s supposed to be an emotional thing and to start a family.  Men traditionally understood that they were taking on the role of PROVIDING for a wife and family.  Now they expect it to be somehow equal.  That’s not the point of marriage in the first place.

    In any case, it depends on the people and how frugal (or not) they are, but men and women also tend to have very different ideas on what is a good use of money.  Men complain and whine and bitch about women spending money on clothes and makeup, then turn around and complain and whine and bitch about them losing their looks…you can’t have it both ways!  For a woman to look good, takes $$$ and time.  Men just have no comprehension of the process.

    One of the things I loved about getting divorced was the freedom to spend a little money on myself to look good!  I don’t even spend a LOT on that but there was always a guilt trip over my head if I did it while married.

     

  44. doing things like going to new places together, sweating through the gym together and sharing and trying out kinks and interests creates a massive boost in bonding.

    That’s not NRE.

    Regarding renewable NRE: Let’s not forget the post battle “Make up sex”. In 43 years, we had a lot of that.

    That’s not NRE.

    You guys are taking terms you hear on this blog and and twisting their definitions into something they’re not.

    Men traditionally understood that they were taking on the role of PROVIDING for a wife and family.  Now they expect it to be somehow equal.  That’s not the point of marriage in the first place.

    We aren’t talking about the original intent of marriage from hundreds of years ago. We’re talking about marriage in the year 2015. In a world with 64%+ divorce rates where 80%+ of the time it’s the woman leaving the man, then yes, we need it to be more equal. I would have no problem providing like you say if the divorce rate was 7% like it was in the 50s.

    Men complain and whine and bitch about women spending money on clothes and makeup, then turn around and complain and whine and bitch about them losing their looks…you can’t have it both ways!

    Re-read the article. No where did I complain about a wife spending money on makeup or clothing for herself to look hot, nor did any other male commenter here. You’ve missed the entire point, and I know why…

    LG every time you comment on marriage or divorce you personalize it and refer to your own marriage and divorce. Your marriage and divorce were very bizarre for a number of reasons and not the norm at all. When commenting on topic in the future, please try not to personalize about what happened in your marriage/divorce and instead do what I do: talk about what usually happens in most marriages and divorces with most people. (And keep it to those today in the the 21st centurynot on Little House on the Prairie.)

  45. OK- sorry. I got carried away with the whole “Renewable NRE” meme. Then again, I don’t really relate to marriage in the 21st Century, having married in 1969- for life. That makes me an anachronism, or atavism, or primitive, or something. Starting to feel like Rip Van Winkle here.

  46. Well, if what I’m experiencing is put down to NRE, then it’s a constantly renewed source that is invigorated by shared experiences, therefore your definition of NRE is wrong. If it’s not classifiable as NRE, then it is a strangely absent piece to how you define relationships, I’d even say a suspiciously absent piece.

  47. I’m thinking SSwife and I have reached the same place, where you have both worked through all the fidelity issues, $ issues, kids issues and know your other as well as yourself. You finish each other’s sentences and share memories decades old. At that point, you are beyond forgiveness or explanation, decisions require minimal discussion, and sex becomes an efficient routine like cooking and eating a meal. Everyone is satisfied, and no one needs to read the menu or the cookbook any more. Very few couples reach this point these days. Describing it is as easy as explaining  religious experience.

    What I never anticipated was how well I would do on my own.

  48. Super Slavis Wife…   How old are you?    One day, you are going to be wanting a lot more in life than you have now most likely.  The white picket fence, big house, kids, car and group of friends to have your High Teas with (English woman right?)     Very likely, if your husband/BF stays poor or doesn’t move up the financial ladder in his 30s and 40s you are going to ditch him as you get older, have kids in the picture and desperately and quickly seek someone more stable and who can help fulfill the Disney fantasy you and most other women have so been programmed to believe so desperately.  And, let’s say your BF/Husband hits it big, you are going to start tasting that lovely taste of money.   I can bet once you start getting pampered or buying those luxuries and your friends are awestruck, you will be only wanting more and more, as most older or 30-40+ year old women will want.    This is natural and it is part of your genetics.  Deny it as you will, but the young cool egalitarian chick in her 20s will be come the blood and gold hungry demanding wife in her older years.   EIther that or you will hit it big , make a lot of money, divorce your husband, if he doesn’t, and keep searching for the rich prince who can fulfill the fantasies of the large estate, the ivy league schools for the kids and luxuries that are out of reach for your income range.

    Welcome to the modern world…

  49. @Paul

    It is an awkward thing to describe. The weird part is I can see it in others, though. After a while, however different peoples’ relationships are from yours, you can look at how they look at each other, how they talk, and see that they’re in the same place. Jon and I are friends with a couple whose relationship is incredibly different to ours, but you can still see they’re at that place where their lives are one life and they’re happy with it.

    @Yonatan

    All I’ve ever wanted from life was to live away from other people. When I was certain I’d be single forever, my dream was to get a scary dog and a weapon to keep me relatively safe and travel the world writing about art and culture and history. When I met Jon I adapted because he’s the one person I don’t want a break from and I couldn’t bear the thought of traveling like that and leaving him behind. Now I want a smallholding from which I can farm and run my business whilst I have babies with the only man who deserves to mix his DNA with mine. We’re actually in a pretty awesome place life-wise, in a two bed cottage in the countryside on indefinite lease, growing our own food, planning our first baby, festivals and parties we go to, me working from home and keeping house, a dog and cat, plans to breed turkeys next spring, friends we have dinner parties and go to events with, more money in savings than 77% of our contemporaries and enough free time to keep bonding every day. We share our goal, so we’re both doing everything possible to keep us to plan and get us into that smallholding in the next 10-20 years. Not in an egalitarian way, but in a functional way.

    He tried to pamper me when we were first going out. It didn’t exactly work. I appreciate gifts, but I like savings and looking at my bank, paypal and wallet more. Spending money is a waste of money, I’d rather plan smart, live our lifestyle on a shoestring budget and save continually. Which is what we’re doing.

  50. What sort of women are you guys marrying!? LOL I am DEFINITELY wealthier because of my wife, absolutely no question.

    It’s like you’ve married one of the girls that’s only good as a side girl or a ‘just for fun’ girl (probably 99% of women).

    My OLTR wife (been together 8 years, cohabiting for 4 or so) earns 6 figures and saves like mad. She is over the top prudent when it comes to the grocery shopping always looking for the cheapest solution to us surviving (Sometimes *I* have to push her to be a little bit extravagant and have some fun). Expensive clothes and makeup don’t interest her. Our finances remain separate and we have a joint account we pay an agreed upon amount into each month which covers our joint living expenses (rent, utilities, food, bills etc.).

    We rent a modest place in a cheap area, bought our cars in cash (we use our own accounts for this), and we basically spend whatever we want from our separate accounts within reason and keep tabs on each others savings and investments. Because of this we are 30yo millionaires with NO DEBT.

    Heck, I spend more on personal stuff than her (hotel rooms to see my side girls, drinks, dinners, gifts, strippers, escorts etc.). This is tolerated because I earn more and as long as I’m saving and investing as much as her she is happy. She also does all the house work.

    Most women probably would cost you more, don’t marry THEM. My current side girl is 19yo model and big 4 beauty pageant contestant. Of course if I married a girl like that it would be a HUGE money sink, so far all she’s cost me is drinks, dinners and hotel room fees, but eventually she’ll start demanding more and/or leave me for a man who’s willing to give her that.

    When we have kids, yes, that WILL be more costly, but that’s due to having CHILDREN not due to being married.

    Women are like cars. You go for the dependable, reliable, low maintenance, great value, 7/10-8/10 Toyota as your daily driver and rent the insanely fun, ego stroking, but totally impractical, headache causing, stupidly expensive and high maintenance 10/10 Lambo on weekends.

  51. It’s like you’ve married one of the girls that’s only good as a side girl or a ‘just for fun’ girl (probably 99% of women).

    Don’t think it’s that simple. Anyway, you have a main of course but she’s not a tradicional wife.

    The point is as soon as you get into monogamy and go tradicional, you give all the power to her. ALL OF IT. It does not matter if she’s the most caring, financially responsible woman, she’ll do as she pleases. You are taking a serious risk to be left with all the providing responsabilities.

    Can she keep working and contrinuting with the family budget even when you have kids? Yeah, she can. Can she quit her job and decide to go full-time household wife/mom? She can. You have zero control over that, and that kind of thing deeply affects your own life!

    You said it yourself:

    Our finances remain separate and we have a joint account we pay an agreed upon amount into each month which covers our joint living expenses (rent, utilities, food, bills etc.).

    Heck, I spend more on personal stuff than her (hotel rooms to see my side girls, drinks, dinners, gifts, strippers, escorts etc.). This is tolerated because I earn more and as long as I’m saving and investing as much as her she is happy. She also does all the house work.

    What happens if she decides to quit her job and go full dependent on you? You kick her out. What if she complains about you having some on the side and demands you have sex only with her? You dump her ass and go fuck other women. This is why it’s working!

    It’s not about the type of girls you meet, but mostly about the kind of relationship you choose to have with them.

  52. SSwife- Ah- a home in the country! That’s where I live. Just don’t decide to raise hor$e$. They eat hundred dollar bill$

  53. I’m thinking SSwife and I have reached the same place

    No she hasn’t. She’s headed for a divorce. Not that she cares.

    One day, you are going to be wanting a lot more in life than you have now most likely.

    Like most married women, she knows in her heart that her marriage isn’t going to be forever. That’s why she didn’t deny it when I said she’s headed for a divorce someday. Like most married women, she doesn’t really care, and until that day comes she’s going to deny, deny, deny until she’s in divorce court. It’s normal.

    I am DEFINITELY wealthier because of my wife, absolutely no question.

    You’re not monogamously traditionally married. You’re in an OLTR with separate finances, precisely as I recommend. You’re doing it right.

  54. I don’t need to deny an obvious falsehood. It’s as false as your claim last year that after two years of cohabiting my “NRE” would wear off, as false as your claim that my love is NRE at all, as false as your claim that I would deny him sex or snap at him or start meaningless arguments within a few months of cohabitation. He’s still perfect, I still adore him, we still have sex whenever we get a chance, I still only have eyes for him, he’s still obsessed with me as well, we still don’t argue or shout at each other. We’re still at day one, only better off. You’re repeatedly wrong and continually resetting the timer. And in another five years when we’re still married, still monogamous, my business is building, our third child is on the way and we’re window-shopping for plots of land, you will write it off as “an exception” rather than see how carefully we designed our life.

    But you can’t conceptualize what you haven’t experienced. As evidenced by your evasion of my NRE question. My best guess is that you have no idea what I feel for Jon or how to classify it because nobody has ever felt that for you, nobody has ever treated you that way. I don’t think you’re beta-ized by anyone, I think you just naturally lean that way and eventually you get tired and the facade falls off and everyone sees through it. Nothing wrong with it, but if everything you say is honest, Alpha 2.0 is a bit of a misnomer.

  55. Do you realize the number of women who’ve come on my sites and defended their marriage who later got divorced?

    But yes, clearly I have no idea what I’m talking about and you’ll be married to this guy for the next 50 years.

    No prob. Let’s wait a few years and see who’s right…

  56. SSwife- Do you have an older Sister? I know a financially independent, physically fit, laid back, intelligent older guy with forty acres in the country and a Daughter with a vacation home in the Bahamas that she loves to share.

    Must hate hor$e$.

  57. What are your main reasons for a man in his 20s to not have kids? Especially if u could do it all over again A man who follows your principles and read most of your blogs.
    All i can think of is the risk a woman will leave you and get child support
    Also i heard even though there are lower taxes in washington another expense is high out there and there salaries are lower so how is it cheaper than oregon or ca?

  58. What are the things u enjoy the most in life is there anything better than sex massages money? Besides health n good friendships
    Id say sex with 8-10s is better thsn traveling video games etc.. Sex n $ are the most fun… Am i missin out on somethin else in life ? Compared a millionare or his fav things to do is still spend $ n have sex like me.

  59. Dude/Qole, please don’t make multiple comments under different names. Pick one name and stick with it. Thanks.

    What are your main reasons for a man in his 20s to not have kids?

    Because he has not yet accomplished all of his big dreams and goals in life, and having kids this young reduces the odds of this ever happening. Kids massive black holes of time, resources, focus, and money.

    Especially if u could do it all over again

    I’ve said before that if I could do it all over again I would still have kids, but wait until I was at least 40 to have them, like 45 or 50.

    Also i heard even though there are lower taxes in washington another expense is high out there and there salaries are lower so how is it cheaper than oregon or ca?

    Incorrect. You’re referring to Oregon. Oregon was recently listed as one of the worst places to live in the US economically because the cost of living and taxes are close to the same as California (i.e. high), but California higher salaries to offset some of this while Oregon does not.

    What are the things u enjoy the most in life is there anything better than sex massages money?

    Fulfilling work. Deep relationships. Travel. Freedom. Self Actualization.

    Sex with hot babes is up there but not the only thing. As Charlie Sheen says, “It’s in the top two.”

  60. Ha, can I put some money down on this bet between BD and SSW?  I think I could make some fair money siding with BD.

    I used to be so similar to you in my 20s, SSW…misanthropic, too smart for everyone, found my one guy I could commit to staying with and we built a little world of our own making, saving our money and planning on having a farm and building our own little fantasy utopia away from all the other stupid people…. and at one time I thought I would rather die than ever leave him.  But life is very, very long, SSW.  Especially if you’re the type who thinks about everything and secretly longs for utopia…

  61. I used to be so similar to you in my 20s, SSW…misanthropic, too smart for everyone, found my one guy I could commit to staying with and we built a little world of our own making, saving our money and planning on having a farm and building our own little fantasy utopia away from all the other stupid people…. and at one time I thought I would rather die than ever leave him.  But life is very, very long, SSW.  Especially if you’re the type who thinks about everything and secretly longs for utopia…

    As you know from talking to defensive married women, she’s not emotionally capable of hearing those words.

    Give her time.

  62. I think marriage used to save you money, but doesn’t any more.

    As I understand it, in The Past, your wife could fix clothing (which was expensive), do washing (now we have washing machines), churn out children (to compensate for a much higher infant mortality rate), cook efficient meals (now food is plentiful), and so on.

    Nowadays essentially all of that is out of date, but the idea that marriage saves you money lingers on.

  63. Jesus, 3600 per month :O

    For that kind of money you could bang young hot 9s/10s escorts 2-3x per week every week, who fulfill any fantasy, zero drama etc.

    Now I see why women are bigger slut-shamers than men, they don’t like competition lol

  64. Best Article on the blog!

    I need to research the shit out of Palimony and Cohabitation Law now.

    Holy shit I had no clue Marriage was THAT expensive!

    All I can say is if you find that Frugal minded Independent (real independent not phony #StrongWoman bullshit) who’s hot.. than keep her in consideration for OLTR cause she’s statistically the only woman in your life you’ll meet like that.

  65. My story involves far lesser “saving” but still substantial.

    I went from “ownership” two-story single family dwelling to renting an apartment. Instead of paying double the value of the mortgage (over 25 years), I now actually had loads of F-U money.

    Also, groceries went down by ~20% per person. That is because I did the shopping before and kept doing it. So when she added things to the list I would not argue.

    Also – the kids expenses were cut by ~25% (I included the child support). That is because now, some of the expenses are on her or divided.

    I also eat less out. That expense was not cut by much (~10-15%), since before the divorce she would cook.

     

    However, I no longer had “Big surprises”. “Big surprise” is a hefty sum that you did not expect, such as home renovation (cough up 20K$) or “family vacations” (5-10K$ per family for a week).

    I now almost completely avoid those, or design in advance. I take my kids abroad every other year. This means that the annual 5-10K$ becomes 2.5K$.

     

    So to sum it up, the “divorce financial earning” for me was about ~20%. However, the reduced stress equals much more.

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