Objections to OLTRs and Open Marriages
Over the last few weeks, I’ve seen a decent amount of comments and emails from men objecting to the concept of the OLTR or OLTR marriage, particularly the OLTR marriage (which I describe here and here).
Most of these objections demonstrate that men making these objections have a significant misunderstanding of what an OLTR is and is not. I’m not sure if this is because we’re running into a reading comprehension problem here (oh so common on the internet) or if it’s because my communication regarding the concept of OLTR has been less than it could be. I’ll be a nice guy and assume it’s the latter.
To set the record straight, today I’m going to go through the objections I’ve seen and their answers. I’ll present them in no particular order.
1. Blackdragon, you’ve been dating women for almost a decade and had sex with all these girls, have had all these MLTRs and FBs, yet you’ve had only one OLTR. Dude, that’s a terrible success rate! That shows how rare OLTRs are.
You’re forgetting, or not understanding, that you can only have one OLTR at a time. OLTRs are not like FBs, MLTRs, lays, or notch counts, where if you rack up a big number of them you’re “successful.” No, OLTRs work exactly the opposite. If you had a lot of them, it would show that you’re a moron and that you didn’t know what the hell you were doing. It would be like having ten marriages in your past. It’s seriously like saying to a guy who’s been married for the last 20 years, “In the last 20 years you’ve only been marred ONCE? Dude, you don’t know anything about marriage. Clearly marriage is very rare.”
Take a guy who has one OLTR that lasts ten years. During that same ten year period, he has sex with 100 FBs on the side. You walk up to him and say, “You only had one OLTR in the last ten years of having sex with women? Wow dude, you suck. Clearly OLTRs don’t work and are really rare.”
I laughed as I typed that. No, that guy has actually proven that OLTRs work, and work great. He was successful at creating an OLTR that worked. If you’re expecting that guy to have 10 or 20 OTLRs over a 10 year period, then you’re looking at this completely ass-backwards.
Having lots of FBs or MLTRs over a ten year period, yeah, that shows success. If you’re a Thrill of the Hunt guy or a hardcore player, having sex with lots of women over a ten year period would be considered a success (at least to certain people; I think a goal of sexing a lot of women just to have a high notch count is childish, but that’s only an opinion and you’re free to disagree). But with OLTRs, you don’t want a lot of them. You want to see only a very tiny number of them that each lasted a very long time. That’s an indicator of success.
Alright, now let’s get to me. As of this writing I’ve been dating women under an FB / MLTR framework for a little over eight years. During that time, I’ve only had one OLTR. She lasted about 5.5 years. During that time frame, I couldn’t have any other OTLRs because you can only have one OLTR at a time. Moreover, that relationship was consistent, with no LSFNTEs or breaks at all. I only had to soft her a grand total of three times in 5.5 years. That’s very good thing.
On top of that, during the 18 months (or so) of my new Alpha Male 2.0 existence (2007-2009 or so), I wasn’t looking for an OLTR at all and just wanted to get laid. So if you deduct those 1.5 years from my total of eight years, that’s 6.5 years, and 5.5 of those years I was in an OLTR (or close to it).
(To the nitpickers, I’m not using 100% exact figures here, since I’d have to look this stuff up in my spreadsheets and calculate a few things to verify precise figures, so feel free to plus or minus 6-12 months from all of this. It still demonstrates what I’m saying.)
Could I have done better? Sure, I suppose. Yet what I just described huge OLTR success story, not a failure. The world would be a much happier place if men were having OLTRs that lasted 5.5 years instead farting around with absolute sexual monogamy (which doesn’t work) or constant one night stands (which isn’t a sustainable lifestyle).
So any time you see a guy making a comment indicating that a low number of OLTRs is indicative of some kind of failure or difficulty, remember that guy doesn’t understand what an OLTR is. Unlike with lays, notch counts, FBs, or MLTRs, success with OLTRs is not how many you’ve had; it’s how few you’ve had and how long they last.
And remember folks, they won’t last forever no matter what you do, since ALL RELATIONSHIPS ARE TEMPORARY. This leads us right into the next objection…
2. OLTRs are Disney. It’s just wishful thinking on your part.
I have said, clearly and repeatedly over many years, that even if you get into an OLTR or OLTR marriage, it will still end. She will still eventually dump your ass and move on (or you will dump her and move on). That’s how women work. It’s unavoidable. Unless both of you are already over the age of 60, ALL RELATIONSHIPS ARE TEMPORARY. I’ve probably typed those four words on blogs or forums over a thousand times.
Disney is a fairy tale. Disney doesn’t exist. Here’s my clear definition of the term in my glossary (emphasis mine):
Disney – Any thought derived from societal programming that monogamy, child rearing, or traditional marriage is pleasant and/or permanent in the modern era. Disney is usually suffered by women, but a certain variation can be suffered by men as well (see: Guy-Disney).
And here’s the guy version:
Guy-Disney – The incorrect thought men have that somewhere out there is a girl who will love you forever, never cheat on you, never get bored with you, and never break up with you.
There you go. Disney means “lasts forever.” It’s false. Disney is a false concept from the monogamy world. It means that if you just do certain things right and find the right girl, you can be together forever and it will be great. And of course it’s utter bullshit.
1. Never have I said, or even implied, that an OLTR or OLTR marriage will last forever.
2. Never have I said, or even implied, that an OLTR or OLTR marriage will be drama-free or problem-free.
Instead, I have very clearly stated the exact opposite, many times:
1. I’ve said that if you get into an OLTR, you need to plan in advance that it will fail (end) someday and that you should not expect it to last forever. You need to lay in financial, physical, and sexual logistics to prevent damage when the relationship ends, which it will.
2. I’ve said that if you can get an OLTR to last just ten years, you’re really lucky. Most guys, including the ones who really know what they’re doing, are usually looking at a time frame of 2-7 years for these kinds of relationships. This includes me!
3. I’ve said that if you get into an OLTR, you’ll still occasionally need to soft next her and/or put up with regular drama and female bullshit from her.
4. I’ve said that the reason I’ve haven’t had an OLTR lately, despite wanting one, and despite getting offers from many woman for one (more on this in a minute), is because my drama tolerance is very low, and gets lower the older I get. I know that if I were to get an OLTR, I’d have to put up with a noticeably higher amount of regular woman drama than I have now sticking with FBs and MLTRs.
Do any of the above items sound like Disney to you?
To be clear: Is OLTR better than monogamy? Hell yes! ANYTHING is better than long-term monogamy. Long-term monogamy, particularly if enforced by a largely left-wing, anti-man governmental structure, is the worst of the nine options you have as you age. But saying that OLTR is better than monogamy is a far cry from saying OLTR is “Disney.” It’s not!
Of course having an OLTR is awesome. Guys I know with OLTRs (and I know many) are really happy. When I had mine it was great. I was in love with a woman I cared for deeply, pair-bonded just like a guy with a girlfriend or wife, yet could still go out and have sex with different women whenever I wanted (and I did!). But was it Disney? Ha! No! Not even close. (For example, notice I’m not in that relationship anymore.)
As I’ve said before, ALL of your long-term relationship options as a man in the 21st century suck. None of your available options are going to be ideal. Monogamy, traditional marriage, MLTRs, OLTR, staying single the rest of your life, all of these choices going to have problems (particularly if you want to have children). I don’t like it any more than you do, but that’s the reality you must face.
The goal then, is not to find something that’s good, because none of the long-term options are good. The goal is to find the one that is the least bad. And the least bad for most men (though not all) is OLTR or OLTR marriage. It has the most amount of upside and the least amount of downside. But it’s not Disney, since there’s is still a lot of downside in an OLTR for an Alpha Male, including semi-regular drama you’ll have to put up with, the fact you have rules from a woman you must follow, the fact your relationship/marriage will end someday and cause you unhappiness, etc.
3. OLTRs don’t exist in real life (except for maybe a few super rare exceptions). I’ve never seen anyone do it, and you’re not doing it right now Blackdragon, therefore they don’t exist.
I really wished I didn’t have to explain how stupid this objection is, but sadly, I’ve seen numerous men give it. So apparently I have to explain why something can be not only possible, but common, even if you’ve never seen any of your personal friends or family members clearly demonstrate it right in front of your eyeballs.
Here are just a few facts, both anecdotal and national:
1. I personally know at least six live-in OLTR couples. One of them have been together for 22 years. Another has been together for 16. Four of these couples have kids.
2. I’ve had sex with at least six women who were in open marriages. The last such woman had been married for 16 years and had two kids with her husband. I found all these women using normal, everyday dating sites like OKCupid. They were not hard to find at all.
3. I’ve spoken with well over 100, perhaps hundreds of men (and women) who are in long-term OLTRs or OTLR marriages right now.
4. When writing my ebook on open marriages, I interviewed 41 men in live-in OLTRs. These were men who either married to a wife or living full time with a girlfriend, all of whom sleep with other women on the side, and their wives knew and stayed with them anyway. If memory serves, 40% of these men were raising kids with these women. These men were not difficult to find. I already knew many of them either personally or online.
5. Over the years, I have turned down multiple women (about eight or so) offering me OLTR marriage or something that looked very close to it. That doesn’t count the women who have offered OLTR (not marriage, just OLTR) that I turned down.
Yes, I’d like an OLTR, but my ultra-low drama tolerance might make this impossible or unlikely for me. Not for other men, who usually don’t mind a little drama and sometimes even like it, but for me, who is an unusually inflexible asshole about this. (I really, really dislike woman-drama, as longtime readers already know. I’m all about happiness, and you can’t have drama and happiness at the same time.)
6. On both iterations of the Fast Seduction forums, both the old ASF (now gone) and the current version at Sedfast, there were and are numerous men in OLTRs or OLTR marriages. Here’s just a few of the forum names I remember: JetSetJim, Sethtrump, Baybars, Bad Boyfriend, Sudine, Franco. Those are just off the top of my head; if I sat down and really racked my brain and did some searches, I could come up with many more. (Note that not all of these guys were practicing OLTRs exactly the way I recommend, but they still had them, many of them with kids too. Many of these men read this blog.)
7. Up to 15% of married couples have an agreement that they’re allowed to get sex on the side. (source) This estimate is very low because of reasons I’ll state in a minute. It’s true a lot of these men don’t always exercise this option, because as I’ve said, most men are betas and a lot of monogamous Alphas have grown lazy.
8. As I talked about in my book, there have been various mainstream articles (though not nearly enough) describing how there are literally millions of Americans in open or polyamorous marriages. Again, these stated figures are low, for reasons I’ll make clear in a minute.
9. None of the above this takes into account the sheer number of millions of marriages where one spouse cheats, the other spouse finds out but stays anyway and puts up with it. Make no mistake, these are OLTRs. They’re extremely dysfunctional OLTRs to be sure, and not at all the way I’d recommend them, but they’re OLTRs. They’re open marriages. (More on this in a minute.)
I could do on and on with more facts, but I have to get to the other objections. Just because you haven’t seen something in person doesn’t mean millions upon millions of people aren’t doing this, or doing variations of it. This includes people you know personally right now.
It’s true that there aren’t a lot of sources defining specific numbers of how many OLTRs there are in society right now. The numbers on surveys and things like that are also deceivingly low. Do you know why this is? Do you know why you (possibly) haven’t seen any of your personal friends or family members tell you they do this?
It’s because they want to keep it a secret. They’ve learned, often the hard way, that when you have a very serious, nonmonogamous relationship, you need to keep your mouth shut, otherwise society will ostracize you. Your friends will look down at you. Your parents will get upset. You might get shut out of certain jobs or careers. Even your own partner will give you hell for telling other people, even if she’s completely down for an OLTR.
It’s easy for more strong-willed guys (and some women!) to brag about having a harem of FBs or MLTRs when they aren’t pair-bonded to anyone in particular. But when you have one single OLTR, your girlfriend or wife, with her picture next to you on your Facebook page, going to parties with family and friends and other moms and dads, are you going to go around bragging to everyone about that hot 21 year-old blonde fuck buddy you’re banging every Wednesday?
Nope. No matter how much you want to, you’re going to keep very, very quiet about it, even if your OLTR is totally cool with you doing it. I’ve said many times that discretion is a mandatory part of an OTLR, society being what it is at the moment.
It will be several more decades before Societal Programming calms down about this, particularly in the United States with its religious, right-wing, Disney-infested past. Europe is about 15-20 years ahead of us tightass Americans on this one. This is why I almost never see Europeans talk about how unrealistic nonmonogamy is. They already know it works, because they’re already doing it (while Americans whine about how it’s “not realistic”).
That’s why you haven’t heard much about people doing it. It’s not because they aren’t doing it. They are.
4. OLTRs won’t work because they’re against female biology.
Go to this blog post right now and read about all the women who stay with men even though they cheat. If women’s biology mandated that they instantly dump any guy who has sex with another woman, how do you explain this?
Well, that’s because those are rich celebrities, Blackdragon. That’s different.
Alright. Sit down and go through every married couple or serious, long-term boyfriend/girlfriend couple (living together) you’ve ever known. Now think through all the guys who’ve cheated on these women and got caught. Since monogamy doesn’t work, it will be a pretty big list. Now go back through the list and remember the number of women who stayed with these men anyway. Again, you’ll have a decent list. I know I do.
Now ask yourself: were any of these guys wealthy or celebrities?
I doubt any of them were. Yet the women stayed. Why? How could this be if this was “against women’s biology?”
Well, okay, yeah BD, sometimes that happens, but those guys are Alphas.
BINGO! They’re ALPHAS. Women stay with Alphas even if they have sex with other women. That’s one of the many advantages of being an Alpha.
Why do you think I keep telling men to be an Alpha? Because it’s awesome, that’s why. And yes, women will stick around. They won’t stick around constantly; that’s not what women do, but they’ll still stick around more or less. (Recall my 94% return rate.)
Of course a beta won’t make a long-term OLTR work (unless the woman is a high sex drive Dominant who’s calling the shots). But that has nothing to do with female biology.
If you are A) financially taking care of a woman and B) giving her the children she desires and C) being very discreet about your screwing around on the side so she doesn’t look bad to her social circle, then yes, women will stay with you for a long, long time in an OLTR. If she doesn’t stay, it’s likely because you didn’t provide an incentive for her to stay because you violated one of the above three items. This is why Maria divorced Arnold. Not because he was fucking around. He was always fucking around! It’s because he finally did it in a way that wasn’t discreet.
Women’s biology desires security, children, and approval from their social circle. You can provide all three in a discreet OLTR. Women’s biology does not require sexual monogamy nor legal marriage, thus you can avoid those two things and still pair bond (if you create and maintain the OLTR correctly).
5. Only a very tiny percentage of men are ever going to be able to pull off an OLTR.
Two answers to this.
Answer one. It’s absolutely true that betas are not going to be able to pull off an OLTR the way I describe. Betas are screwed no matter what. Since most men (about 70% or so) are betas, then you are somewhat correct. 70% of men have no hope in hell of ever creating an OLTR (outside of a female-centric one) unless they man-up and become Alphas. That’s exactly why more men should read my blog and my books and blogs/books like it, so we can have less miserable betas out there and more happy Alphas.
However, that still leaves around 30% of men who are not betas. I agree 30% is a smaller percentage, but it’s not a “tiny” percentage.
I have estimated that 25% of men are Alpha Male 1.0s and 5% are Alpha Male 2.0s. Alpha Male 2.0s can create an OLTR, no problem, just about any time they want (unless they have horribly low drama tolerances like me). Alpha Male 1.0s could create an OLTR if they calmed down on the outcome dependence and territoriality. The ones that choose to do this can have a long-lasting OLTR or OLTR marriage. The ones that choose not to do this will continue to either be players or have dysfunctional OLTRs (which would be promising monogamy and then cheating and getting caught, or having an OLTR with way too many rules, violating those rules, and getting drama for it).
Therefore, Alphas who purposely avoid OLTRs are choosing to do so, not because they are unable to do it. I’m a perfect example of this. (There are, seriously, at least three women I know right now who would enter into an OLTR with me right now, right this minute, if I asked them to. I chose not to.)
Answer two. When you say only a small percentage of men can make this work, what exactly are you comparing this to? Are you comparing this to traditional monogamous marriage? Do you know what the success rate is for that right now? The last time I compiled the numbers, traditional monogamous marriage had an 87% failure rate. This means that if you get married and monogamous, there’s an 87% chance that eventually you will cheat, or she will cheat, or you’ll get divorced, or you’ll end up with a shitty, resentful marriage in your old age.
That’s based on figures back in 2009. As I’ve clearly shown, divorce statistics and infidelity statistics all over the Western world have become worse since then, and continue to grow even worse with every passing year. I would venture to guess that the overall failure rate for monogamous marriage for people getting married now, post 2014, is probably around 94%, if not higher.
That means you’re looking at approximately 6% of men who can “pull off” a successful monogamous forever marriage, and the vast majority of those men are low sex drive beta males. Are you a low sex drive beta male? I sure hope not.
So there you go. The five objections I’ve seen to OLTRs, rebutted.
Now stop complaining and get to work on making a better life for yourself.