A while back, I wrote a post about how serial monogamy is, in most cases, abusive to men, since it’s usually women who initiate it and women who terminate it discordantly with the expectations of the men they’re dating.

In that post, I posed 11 questions for these man-dumpers to answer. Our very own Kryptokate, an avowed serial monogamist, was brave enough to answer those questions. She was quite brave to be as honest as she was; I gotta give her credit.

Here, I will analyze her answers to get a glimpse into the serial monogamist female mind. Fair warning: this is going to be one of the most depressing articles you will read on this blog, but sometimes we must do this in the interest of education and self-improvement. Many of you guys will be extremely surprised to learn what is going through women’s minds.

My original questions will be in italics, my analyses will be in normal font, and Kryptokate’s responses will be in blocked quotes. I have edited some of her statements for brevity. You can view the entire thing in the comments at the linked post above.

She starts:

I’m in my late 30s and have spent my life since age 16 going from one boyfriend to the next with basically zero time in between and every man I’ve ever been with has fallen madly in love with me, so those are my credentials.

This is exactly what I’m talking about when describing serial monogamy. Man and woman get monogamous, man falls head over heels in love with woman, everything is fine during NRE, then suddenly woman dumps man, man feels terrible, and woman quickly moves on to the next man. Serial monogamy. It’s evil. As such, I’m going to be brutal. Get ready.

Note that in her responses, she uses my original nomenclature for Alpha Males. So when she says “Alpha” she means Alpha Male 2.0. When she says “Needy Alpha,” she means Alpha Male 1.0.

Now for my questions and her answers:

1. At the beginning of the relationship, when these innocent beta males fall in love with you after having sex with you two or three times, do you explain to them that you’ll be dumping them in a few months (or a year or two at the most)?

This depends on what kind of guy they are. If they’re betas, no, of course not. It would be incredibly cruel and they will be horribly hurt and devastated. Since I have empathy, I can’t tolerate that.

So in other words, she’s deceptive. She goes along with the pretence that this will be a “serious” long-term monogamous relationship when she knows damn well that it will not be.

Telling them that she knows she’s going to dump their unsuspecting asses is “cruel,” so for some reason, being deceptive and then dumping them isn’t “cruel” either.

If they’re an Alpha, then yes I will tell them, but it doesn’t matter because they won’t believe it. I have straight-out told guys before, in the beginning, “I am a destroyer of men” and they just think it’s cute or funny or a challenge (until it happens to them).

I actually believe this. Alphas (of both types) have a tendency to think they’re Superman. (My arguments with pro-monogamy Alpha 1.0s over the years clearly demonstrate this.)

But at least in these instances, she’s being clear about her future intentions. If a woman is clear, and the guy is stupid or delusional, I blame the guy, not the woman. But if the woman isn’t clear, my blame rests with her.

If they’re a needy alpha, then no I would never tell them this because it would get a hostile, angry, and possibly violent or retaliatory reaction.

So again, she’s willfully deceptive with every guy except the teeny tiny percentage she thinks are non-needy Alphas (2.0s).

Just to head off an objection that I can hear coming: It’s true that when I get into a new FB or MLTR relationship with a woman, I don’t tell them everything I’m going to be doing with them on the very first date. But I do not lead them on by making them think we’re going to be A) monogamous, B) serious, or C) long-term partners.

That’s the problem I have with serial monogamy and monogamy in general. As I’ve said in my podcasts, the entire foundation of the relationship is based on deception.

But just to be clear, the same result with happen with any guy…it’s not just betas who will eventually be dumped.

Correct. She dumps them all. Nice.

2. When these men talk about getting married and having kids and stuff (and they usually do, because we’re talking about betas here), do you correct these men, telling them that this is never going to happen? Or do you go along with the Big Lie, and give them an “Oh yeah, it will be great!”?

I just stay totally non-committal and don’t respond one way or the other when they talk about marriage. I don’t encourage it or engage in it but I also don’t say “that will never happen.”

It will never happen, but she doesn’t tell them this. She’s being deceptive.

I might tell them I don’t want kids if I think they won’t get upset or hostile. As time goes on and they begin to press on the commitment/marriage issue, I will begin to reveal my cards and that’s when they will either go along with what I want (if they’re betas) or we will start having explosive arguments and breaking up (if they’re needy alphas).

I leave that one without comment.

3. Do you continue to have sex with your old boyfriend after getting a new boyfriend? (I already know the answer to this, which is usually “no”, but I still want to see how a serial monogamist woman answers this question.)

No of course not. This question doesn’t even make sense. Why would I continue having sex with my old boyfriend when the whole reason I leave him is because eventually I find it gross to have sex with him?

So when you get into a new relationship with a serial monogamist woman, at some point down the road she’s going to think that it’s “gross” to have sex with you.

By the way, married monogamous husbands know all about that one.

Isn’t monogamy nice?

4. Do you feel at all bad when you dump all these men? Most of whom not only loved you (or at least had strong oneitis for you) but also wanted a long future with you with marriage and kids and stuff?

Betas = yes I feel horrible. Literally lifelong horrifying levels of guilt that I will never truly get over. I have actually visited therapists and hypnotists to try to get rid of the guilt.

Again, doesn’t that sound nice? Serial monogamy is so much fun for everyone!

Generally it takes me months after I *want* to break up to build up the courage and harden my heart enough to actually do it. I care about them and it kills me to do it but what choice is there?

Oh, I don’t know, maybe not get monogamous and follow one of the other systems I recommend?

It eventually becomes too nauseating to continue having sex and pretending not to be disgusted.

I hope you guys with monogamous girlfriends are paying close attention. That’s gonna be you shortly.

5. Does it strike you as just a little odd when you’re introducing these men as your boyfriend to your parents and closest friends within the first six months knowing them that in another few months you’ll be doing the exact same thing with a new and completely different boyfriend? Do you ever have the thought, “I’d better hold off on introducing this guy to everyone in my life until he survives at least a year with me, that way I won’t look stupid to everyone when I dump the guy and then bring a new boyfriend over to the house.”?

Yes of course, it’s embarrassing and after enough time a woman like me just gets a reputation as being a man-eater who goes through men and your friends and family stop taking it seriously – they will make jokes about it or roll their eyes or whatever. They will probably feel sorry for the men, my parents actively pity any guy I date.

Sounds wonderful. For both of you.

Again, however, what exactly is the alternative here?

I think I already answered that question. This entire blog and all of my books are the alternatives.

I stopped bringing boyfriends to my annual work retreat years ago for precisely this reason, nor do I post any pics or evidence about new boyfriends on FB. But am I supposed to hide them from everyone in my life?

If I had your lifestyle? Yes.

But I wouldn’t have your lifestyle because I don’t do monogamy. Because, you know, I like to be happy. But clearly I’m insane.

That’s not practical and the guy will demand to be introduced to family/friends or get offended.

Yes. Better to continue the deception and fatten him up for the kill. Good point.

Another thing you’re not considering is that if all of my male acquaintances/friends don’t know I have a boyfriend, they will be actively trying to fuck me and that’s annoying. You’re forgetting that telecasting that you have a boyfriend is the best possible way to signal to other men that they shouldn’t hit on you.

Ha! As if your male friends suddenly stop trying to fuck you as soon as you get a boyfriend!

And I’ve already talked about how abusive friend zone is. So you’re a serial monogamous AND a friend-zoner. Great.

6. What about just dating for six months? Or a year? No boyfriend. Just dating around, hanging out with and/or fucking guys as you please. Not a lot of guys, just more than one. You know, enjoying life and putting in some numbers instead of being locked-down to just one needy guy. No drama, no rules, no big breakups, no hurt feelings, just sex, fun, 100% honesty with everyone, and enjoying yourself. And maybe, after playing around with a bunch of guys, you might even find one who will make a quality boyfriend you’ll actually want to stay with for longer than a year or two. Does doing this have any appeal to you at all? If not, why not?

This question shows where you’re confused. I would *love* to just date for six months or a year. But what you’re forgetting is that MEN WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS. I have never, in my life, met a single guy who I can have sex with who will not insist on monogamy and locking me down.

I understand. This is a real problem and I’m doing my best to educate these betas and Alpha Male 1.0s on how they can be with a woman in a setting which is conducive to happiness and freedom rather than into something that promotes drama and control, and sets a pain time-bomb that will go off sometime in your future.

I have literally gone out of my way to seek out scumbags and it still doesn’t matter. It’s in their nature to try to lock down women and if they sense that you’re less interested in monogamy than they are they will become obsessed with trying to block other men from your vagina. Therefore, this idea of just dating/fucking is a fantasy.

No it’s not. Plenty of women “date” and play the field. Plenty of women are polyamorous or are in open relationships. Plenty of other women don’t date men at all (though I don’t think that’s healthy).

You are correct regarding the problem but your answer to the problem is a cop-out and a lazy “solution.” As I’ve already said, you as a woman have many other options beyond serial monogamy. This is demonstrably true.

7. I know that because you’re a woman you automatically want to get monogamously married someday (even though it makes zero sense for you to do so, since you’ll hate it). So I’m not even going to argue with you on that. But when you want to settle down and have kids, do you seriously think you’re never going to get bored with him for the next 45 years straight? Even though you have a very steady and reliable pattern getting bored with men quickly? Or do you just plan on getting divorced a lot? What exactly is your long-term game plan and how do you plan on executing it with high odds of success? (Humorously, I could pose this exact same question to the typical player/PUA/manosphere guy too. But that’s another topic.)

I’ve already been married

Big shock. Seriously, I had a feeling that you already had done the serial monogamy marriage thing: getting married when you know it won’t work out but doing it anyway, then getting a divorce.

and yes I let my ex-husband convince me (during the NRE stage) that I could actually be long-term monogamous by pure force of will. By the time we were actually saying “I do” I was only half-way convinced.

Annnnddd bingo. I was right.

I’ve already demonstrated how modern day women know on their wedding day that the marriage won’t be forever and a divorce will be forthcoming.

It’s a shame so many men fall for this ruse.

At this point, I do NOT want to be married ever again. My “plan,” if I had my way, would be to live for the rest of my life with my platonic best friends (either male or female) and have them be my source of companionship and family, while fucking new guys every few months. Basically the Golden Girls model would be the ultimate old-lady life for me and seems way more fun than living with some old guy you can’t stand and have to listen to fart in bed every morning.

Sounds fine to me. Now if you could only do that without getting deceptive with men all the time…

However, society won’t let me do this (though I think in the future it will be the preferred way of living). Right now, almost everyone is universally horrified when I tell them that that is my preferred way of living *with the exception of smart women* who always understand why it would be a desirable arrangement. They are the ONLY people who don’t meet the idea with defensiveness, anxiety, or anger.

I know. It’s called Societal Programming.

But again, you say society “won’t let you do this.” You can do whatever the fuck you want. That’s the core concept you’re missing in all of your statements.

You don’t have to conform. As a matter of fact, conforming to Societal Programming eliminates the possibility for long-term, consistent happiness.

8. Do you have the same memorized speech you give these guys when you dump them? You’ve done it so many times I would assume it’s gotten pretty routine by now.

No of course not. I make up a different viable and personalized excuse for each guy which is custom-tailored to preserve his ego and dignity and emotions to the maximum extent possible.

Gentlemen? Paying attention?

9. How regimented are you about this? Do you actually have a serial monogamy “system” you could show other women the same way I have a system for nonmonogamy that I show men? Or are you just always flying by the seat of your pants, blowing in whatever direction your biology pushes you?

There is zero regimentation and the idea that a *system* is necessary is silly. Let me explain it because it is very, very simple: when you meet a new guy you’re attracted to, you get wet just thinking about him. After a while it takes making out to get you wet. A little while longer and *nothing* will get you wet except for direct stimulation of your vagina while you think about something else that turns you on. And then a little while after that and you will start to feel actively repulsed when he touches you or tries to kiss you and it will take a very strong force of will to not slap his hands away or snap at him out of visceral revulsion.

This above paragraph is the most accurate, well-written description of what monogamy is for a woman. It’s why the real divorce rate is over 64%, why 82% of divorces are initiated by women, and why 75% of boyfriend/girlfriend relationships are terminated by the woman. It’s why we live in a society of fatherless children, alimony, child support, and relationship drama.

It really is a fantastic summation. I should engrave that paragraph on gold plaques and sell them to men as a constant reminder of how damn stupid it is to get into any monogamous relationship with a woman (unless that man likes drama, and I know some do).

You can rest assured that I’m going to be quoting that paragraph often in the future. Good stuff.

This will happen even though you think he is the most wonderful person you know and your best friend and you care about him more than anything. And you would do anything to jumpstart your vagina or be attracted like you used to. But it is a completely biological process and works on its own and has nothing to do with your thoughts or opinions or conscious desires. At the beginning of your relationship you will be dripping for him and aroused. Later it will take work to get you there. And still later, nothing in the world will get you there and that’s why there are a billion brands of lube sold (no one needs that in the beginning of a relationship).

Gentlemen? Still paying close attention to what she’s saying?

10. Why do you think you get bored with men so reliably and regularly? Any theories on why you’re like this? (I already know the answer to this question, because sexual boredom is a biological trait built into women. But again, I would love to hear her answer anyway.)

See above. It is purely biological. Also, after you have been with the same guy for a while and a new guy touches you, your physical reaction will be so volcanic that there is literally nothing to stop it. The longer you’ve been monogamous, the more extreme your reaction to a new man will be. After I was married for 5 years (far and away the longest period of monogamy in my life), the first time I hooked up with a new guy I was literally almost unconscious with arousal and desire. Wild horses will not stop your arousal once it is triggered by a new guy in this manner. Seriously. That is why women will blow up and burn down their entire life and it will just be because their vagina is on fire for a new guy and there is nothing they can do to stop it. See the scene in the movie Unfaithful where Diane Lane’s character is literally convulsing with desire for a dead-on portrayal of what it is like. For guys, I would suggest that the most intense and reactive sex they’ll ever have is with a married woman.

You’re getting gold here, Gentlemen. I don’t even need to comment.

11. Have you actually been in love with any of these guys? If the answer is yes, why did you still dump him so fast like all the other dudes? If the answer is no, why do you keep getting into serious relationships with men you don’t love?

I was in love with a few of them. Being actually “in love” makes zero difference as far as the biological mechanism that I described above. In fact I would say it makes for an even starker and more disturbing distinction when your attraction dies, which it will, and not even on a slower track.

Remember that the next time a woman tells you she loves you.

Also, I just want to say that the only reason that all women don’t do the above is that most aren’t attractive or smart enough to be able to.

Correct. I have said before that long-term monogamy has even lower odds of working if the woman is hot.

But that’s the only reason. But in the same way that a harem/polygamy is the ultimate expression of man’s unrestrained sexuality, serial monogamy that doesn’t last longer than a few months (maybe a couple years if they have a baby but that is it TOPS) is what all women would do if they were unrestrained.

Correct again. As I’ve been saying in the glossary for years, serial monogamy is women’s biological, preferred method of pair bonding. Love you and just you, then get bored with you, dump you, find a new man, and start all over again.

The only time a woman doesn’t do this is if she lives in a culture where this is not allowed, or if she is financially “stuck” with the guy (because of small children, lack of a job, etc).

Lots of women are so unattractive that they can’t be sure of getting a new guy so they will stick with their guy purely out of fear and no options. And lots of hot women are so dumb that they allow themselves to be fooled by religious/social conditioning so that even while they naturally enact what I’ve described above, they will never actually be AWARE of it, and they’ll make up all kinds of rationalizations. The tiny handful of very smart and also hot women I’ve known are gigantic man eaters and are absolutely aware of all of this though they will hide it from almost everyone. But you have to be hot enough to have lots of options and smart enough to figure out how to do what you want without inciting the wrath of men and society in order to actually pull it off. All women would if they could, usually only sexy/smart women will.

And sorry for any of you guys looking for some hope, but the hotter your girlfriend is, the more I can give you a 100% guarantee of her cheating on you. The only way to not be cheated on is to have a woman so ugly no one wants her, so dumb she will listen to you for a while (but she will also listen to another guy eventually so this is only a delaying tactic, not a solution), or to physically restrain/threaten her. Other methods work sometimes, such as fear of eternal damnation or social ostracism, but they’re not foolproof.

And that’s it folks. As I’ve often said, I don’t even need to make anti-monogamy arguments when those who are pro-monogamy, or at least reluctantly practice monogamy, honestly explain how it works in the real world.

If the system that Kryptokate is describing sounds good to you, then go for it. I’ll see you in about a year when you make a whiny post over here about how pissed off, needy, or depressed you are.

If the system she describes sounds shitty, then you might want to utilize the alternatives I described to her and in my books.

As always, the choice is yours. Choose wisely.

125 Comments on “Confessions of a Serial Monogamist

  1. “As a matter of fact, conforming to Societal Programming eliminates the possibility for long-term, consistent happiness.”

    I agree, not just with regard to dating, but for anything and everything. Society’s rules are always for its own benefit, not yours, and the more you realize that, the higher goes your happiness potential.

    Also, I don’t think Kryptokate has been with a man who truly has game, and all the rest of it. A man who will constantly keep her guessing, will mix it up in the bedroom, will be physically and otherwise (money, status, etc) highly attractive.

    And I think she’d be much less likely to break up with a guy who would truly be okay if she dumped him, meaning completely non-needy. I think all of her past boyfriends lacked true game.

    That said, I think this is all a great insight into the hot female’s mind. Thanks BD & Kryptokate.

  2. I should have finished my breakfast before reading this. It’s not anything I haven’t come to realize was true, but reading the solipsism dripping from every word she wrote, I shudder knowing that my female physician colleagues (the hot ones anyway) have the capacity to think as irrationally as kryptoC.

    This is good mental armor to wear when a girl begins to make you believe she’s going to love you forever.

    Any man who has a son or is in a mentoring position to a boy/young man should endeavor to work these truths in early and often. It was 30 years too late for me, but better late than ever.

  3. An excellent post.

    >> The only way to not be cheated on is to have a woman so ugly no one wants her

    No, the only way not to be cheated in is to have an unfenced relationship

    Don’t ever make an agreement to fence in your sexuality on an exclusive basis

  4. @Kryptokate. Thank you for your honesty.

     

    If you fear the truth, do not read this.

     

    This is the core of your problem, and a problem you have, a big one.

    ” because eventually I find it gross to have sex with him?”

     

    Did you ever wonder why this happens? Well let me point you in the right direction. Sex is for making babies. You fuck, you get pregnant, mother nature loves you. You will enjoy sex even after many years with the same partner.

    BD (and many other members of our modern society) may not want to hear this fact because it is not practical. What about your career? What abour your freedom? What about your life?

    As a woman your main goal in life is to have the best quality children (plural!) your looks and femininity allow you.

    Let me repeat this: As a woman you are here to have top notch babies and many. If you do not follow the brutal imperative of mother nature you will suffer.

    From 16 onwards you had sex but no babies. You had relationships that were shallow and meaningless because you did not get pregnant. You sure “loved” some or many of your partners but you did dump them in the end because sex without babies is nothing mother nature wants. So you started to feel bad about it…so much sex and no babies? Something must be wrong with that man. Thats who nature things.

    Your idea to get “rid of the guilt” is nice. Keep doing the idiocracy-stuff but down a pill to feel better about it. Well done. I dont get it why this didnt work out.

    Now from the bad news to the worse. You are getting old. With almost 40 your best 25 years as a woman are behind you. What comes now is even more brutal. Your value as a human strongly depends on how others see you and your sex-value is about to nose-dive. No children meaning the next 2 decades might be less of a joyride than the last two. You may not like whats coming your way but thats exactly what you did choose. It could have been different  had you followed natures imperative instead of egoism and feminist propaganda.

    “will take a very strong force of will” This should have given you food for thought YEARS ago. The guy didnt change, you didnt change so why this change in your wetness? (And this will not get better as you get close to peri-menopause). Why this problem getting wet down there? Maybe mother nature is telling you something. And the message may as well be “This man has good genes and will produce good children. Then you have sex. But no children. As time goes by, his reproductive value in the eyes of nature is going down, and down. You only notice the effect – lack of wetness. If you did ever wonder why – now here you have it. Thats why. Dont like it?

    “But Maldek i can not have a baby every 3-5 years. What about my job and career?” Well honey you are a woman. Women are not made to have a career – you are better suited as wifes and mothers, helping your man reach his goals while your career is having good children.

    “Thats horrible Maldek! You are a mysoginist asshole who lives in the 16th century.”

    Yes you are right. Thats what i am. But consider this – the nature of man has not changed in the past decades. What made people happy back then still works. Our new way do not seem to work that well. Never ever have so many woman been depressed and never b4 did so many rely on pills to keep going. These new ways of lifing are NOT making the average person happier. Did it work out well for you? Even if the answer is “yes” (what i do doubt) will the answer still be “yes” 15 years from now when your SMV is 0 and you are old and alone with no children nor grand children? Wasted life is all i can say.

    Final word: “All women would if they could”

    Only the dumb babes would honey. Those who rationalize well with their hamster that living like a man will make them happy. Strong, intelligent, successful women are a strong indicator you are talking about such a type. You are no man lady, even though society educated you otherwise. Ask your grand-mother, she was wiser than you or else you wouldnt be alive.

     

     

  5. Boy, am i glad that my long term monogamous GF is not like the rest (i don’t know how to do the trademark)…

    Both BD and KryptoKate make the generalization that if one thing occurs less than 2% of instances then it doesn’t exist. I think my GF is 1 in a million, so if it doesn’t work out then i would never try monogamy again (although my friends think that i am built to live in a monogamous lifestyle and that i would find an excuse to get back to it – i hope that i wouldn’t) – i would never actively search for such a rare occurence, but i’m glad i kinda stumbled upon it. Also – it works because i’m not like the rest (it wouldn’t otherwise).

    Also – great article BD and thanx KryptoKate for the honesty – that was pure gold.

     

  6. Fascinating. Looks like important, valuable information for many people. Thanks BD! We are fortunate Kryptokate is being so open with her information. That first comment from C makes a great point which is rather intriguing (inviting more info from Kryptokate).

    I wonder what is the percentage of the female population of women who are like Kryptokate — hot enough & smart enough & independent enough to do this pattern with men. One can be smart enough to see through the BS of social conformity pressure (and have options) but still lack the guts to deviate from it.

    I suspect one key factor (varying with each woman) is her balance of testosterone & estrogen. In my experience, some women are more led by her sexual desire than by wanting emotional connection. This variable is aside from her looks or IQ.  It’s her personal chemical balance. Some women’s attraction to men depends far more on his looks (than most women care). What percentage of women are like that?

    This post is a great illustration of the awful conflict between natural inclinations and social conformity forces.

    I wonder if Kryptokate lives in a big city where there is an abundance of dating options and plenty of anonymity and diversity of beliefs about ‘what is the right way to live’, versus living in more like a small town where the dating pool is small and people monitor your actions and there’s more consensus about the one acceptable way for you to live your life.

  7. @maldek

    Having kids just to prevent this would be like becoming homeless because you don’t like your job. The solution is worse than the problem.

  8. Fantastic read!

    Im all for serial monogamy(ish) from the male perspective. I know thats not a popular view on this blog but its what I like. I always have a GF. Right now I have a live in GF what 13 years my junior and beautiful. I love having a great woman around. But Im realistic with it and know it will end because of previously mentioned biological wiring. I also have never put sexual fences up. Although neither of us stray too far frequently…mostly together.  It seems to work for longer this way although I fully admit the validity of this article. It really does make a difference to have a non needy male tho. The only difference between myself and KK is that Im more upfront and honest.

    I softly agree with maldek, heres why:

    1. You’re chasing men that you know aren’t ok with this. You could easily prequalify men out but you don’t because of your fear of having less men to choose from.  This is most of BDs point, I think, that you’re choosing to deceive men and you don’t have to…if you follow his non-monogamy system.  I certainly miss out a lot of  women but only the wrong women for my purposes.  You said you have never met a man that could be ok with your lifestyle and not get clingy. That’s on you! Myself and many guys on this blog are just that type but for some reason you like your system better. Trust me, there are guys out there that would be ok with this. You’re just not turned on by it… I think you like the control!

    2.  If you are having that much guilt then you know deep down you are doing something wrong. If you were honest with your lifestyle you would feel no guilt. I don’t. I don’t take advantage of the situation, I create a situation of love…if only realistically temporary. My current GF knew upfront that I was dating 7 women and that I would never be monogamous with her when we met . But I also was upfront that I would love her and add benefit to her life, which I do and have.

    3. Lastly, I don’t think most women get to the point of all out disgust. Yes, harder to get aroused by the same person if only monogamous but certainly not to the level you state. You might want to look into that. I’m not trying to be critical but seriously, some therapy into why men eventually disgust you might be useful for your health.  I totally support your ideas but this might be a bit far, IMO.

    Overall, I fell this is the typical example of a woman’s predisposition to having her cake and eating it too! I really don’t see the issue with an honest person, why not, Cake is delicious.

  9. I am sorry but this is ridiculous. If I take what Kryptokate says at face value then she is either insanely, Adriana Lima hot or she simply selects men of much lower sexual market value (SMV). Kryptokate herself has made this argument before in some of her comments.

    Whoever has the higher SMV (and is aware of it) has the power in the relationship. Even an above average looking woman will not have the experiences Kryptokate has had unless they are selecting men of significantly lower SMV or at a minimum men that for whatever reason see their own SMV as much lower than it actually is.

    None of the behaviors above are common among women. I have dated hundreds of women and I cannot think of a single one that hasn’t been dumped by someone. And I know plenty of women that date or marry guys and are still into those guys years after they meet them, are faithful and good to them. It is way more likely that the man becomes grossed out by the woman than the other way around. And sexual boredom is not a female trait…it is a human trait. We evolved to live to be 30 years old…not 85.

    In fact the problem is usually on the other side of things…the guy has way more options and he decides to leave the relationship because he understands his SMV is now much higher than hers. Women do end most relationships but what is described is an overly simplistic analysis of why that’s the case. Women are not in general “man eaters” that chew men up and spit them out when they are done with them. Women act rationally in an effort to secure being provided for before their advantage of SMV dissipates with age.

    In my experience (and I am generalizing) if a women was unrestrained she would find a provider husband that secured her comfort and then find other more exciting men to have sex with. Some will want monogamy with those other men and others won’t. Like most things, it depends on the person.

    And no offense, but unless Kryptokate is dating guys that are fat, old, bald, unemployed, etc. there is no way that “every guy [she] has ever been with has fallen madly in love with her” now that she is in her late 30s. If Kryptokate is dating guys of higher SMV it will not play out that way.

  10. BD when I first read that article laying out the questions my response was “No one is going to step up to that.”

     

    Kryptokate, thanks for proving me wrong.

  11. This was probably obvious, but just to be clear, I wrote that post in stark and unvarnished terms because this is a topic that the vast majority of people are in denial about, even those who know better. BD and his readers are an exception but most people just can’t stand to hear this stuff so sometimes you have to wallop them over the head.

    Most women are in denial about this just as much as men. Because there are no social scripts to explain it to them so when it happens they turn to the go-to social scripts. I have heard so many of my female friends who cheated on their men giving BS explanations that they really believed…he was emotionally neglecting me, I was “acting out” because of XYZ, I was abused as a child, blah blah blah. They NEVER say the real reason, which is that another man got sexually aggressive with them, they got extremely aroused, their biological programming kicked in, and they cheated because they were really damn horny.

    It took me a few men before I realized it myself. With my very first high school boyfriend, I thought it was him. Same with the next one. By the third one, I realized it was me, not them, and that it was always the same pattern no matter what. Then I started paying attention to other couples and realizing it was the same with all of them, not just me.

    Just last night I was consoling my male friend who has just been dumped by his (pretty, brilliant, independent) girlfriend and he actually told me that he thinks she’s not a very sexual person at all and just isn’t interested in sex. Yeah right!! I remember when they got together two years ago how over the moon he was and how he went on and on about their amazing physical and emotional connection and animalistic sex. And now he’s forgotten that so much that he actually believes she just doesn’t like sex (because they were only doing it once a month for the past six months til she finally broke up with him). I’m sure she likes it just fine with someone new. He’s still hoping they get back together and I’d bet my life she is already banging someone else and probably was before they broke up.

    I am not at all condoning or promoting anything about what I wrote, or my lifestyle. I’m just describing the way it is. As I said, if there was a pill I could take that would make it so that the feelings of attraction I feel in the first year would last forever with one guy, I would take that pill in a heartbeat, and pay good money for it too. I also agree I have been deceptive, though not always. In some instances I really was convinced myself, and even though I’m very cerebral, even I can get carried away with my feelings sometimes.
    Reality really sucks sometimes and fantasy can be preferable to facing the truth. I won’t try to argue with anything you said BD, you’re not wrong.

    And I think the “solution” you recommend is in fact probably the best route for guys to go. But I have serious doubts that most guys have the personality to be Alpha 2.0s. Most are simply far too territorial, sexually jealous, and sentimental. For those who can truly embody outcome independence, they should absolutely be following your advice. One thing I’ve learned is that male sexual jealousy is a very powerful and dangerous force that one should not treat lightly.

    @ Maldek – I actually agree with you that much of what I’ve described could very well be due to not having kids. It makes sense that nature would instill wiring that tells a woman that if she’s been sleeping with a man for months/years and no babies have happened, that he’s a dud and she should move on. And making that woman feel first sexual disinterest and then disgust to prompt her moving on would be the best way to ensure that. I do know some women who have lots (i.e. 4-6) kids who claim they’re still attracted to their husband. Of course, nature doesn’t realize that the reason there were no kids is because you’ve been actively preventing them with birth control…on a hormonal level your body would react as if the man were sterile and for a woman’s genes to survive she would need to leave that man. I think there’s something to this and I would like to see some research on how a woman’s sex drive varies with length of relationship when there are or aren’t regular pregnancies happening.

    But most people do not want more than 1 or 2 kids, so understanding how it works doesn’t necessarily solve the problem.

    Also, as to your concerns that I am helping to propagate an Idiocracy, I donated eggs several times to infertile couples so I do in fact have genetic children out there, I just didn’t have them myself. Not that that matters. I care about MY interests, not the interests of my genes. After all, my genes don’t care about me. 🙂

    With respect to others’ speculations, it’s true that I do not live in a major coastal urban area, I live in a mid-size city where most people are very traditional and everyone gets married. BD’s way would definitely be much more doable in a big city. In addition, there are more single men than single women where I live so guys tend to really want to lock down a woman when they get one. Demographics have a big impact on local mating markets.

    And it’s probably also true that I’ve never really met a guy with a lot of game. At least, I’ve never met an attractive Alpha 2.0 type. If I did I would be very happy. I expect there will (hopefully) be more and more as people learn about this stuff, and maybe there are more in the younger generation, which would be a good thing. But guys in their 30s and 40s where I live, at least, all seem oriented towards long-term monogamy (some with cheating). Where I live, the marriage rate is really high, but so is the divorce rate (naturally), and there’s an enormous pool of people divorced in their 30s. Most of those guys try to jump immediately into another monogamous situation even when they say they won’t…it’s almost like once a man’s been domesticated, he can’t truly go wild again and prefers his cage.

     

     

     

  12. @ Dawson  I definitely don’t date old, fat, bald, or unemployed men. However, where I live, literally everyone over the age of 25 is either married or divorced with kids. So it’s not like there are all these good-looking, employed, single people with no baggage around. Not everywhere is like NYC. Also, I have the disposable income and inclination to put a lot of time, effort, and money into my looks so I’ve been able to extend them a lot longer than nature would otherwise allow. I obviously do not expect things to be at all the same for me at 48 as they are now, but if you don’t have kids, don’t gain weight, and get your skin lasered you don’t look that different at 37 than you did at 27.

    Also, I will say that there is *ONE* ex-boyfriend that I am still strongly sexually attracted to and he WAS tall, built, goodlooking, cool, good job, smart, had his shit together, etc etc. However, he was also a super territorial, explosively angry, controlling dickhead and we had nuclear-level fights constantly…all of which led to amazing makeup sex but all of which also led to constant drama and misery. So I decided my happiness was more important than the great sex and broke up with him. Though like I said, I admit that he is the one guy I would still like to have sex with, I just know I can’t because it creates too much drama and shit and outside of the sack, he was never any fun to be with. He was the Alpha 1.0 type. Usually I go for nicer, mild-mannered intellectual types and unfortunately they are very prone to one-itis/betaization, though they’re much more enjoyable than an Alpha 1.0 while it lasts.

  13. Two more things — sorry, brevity isn’t my strong suit.

    One, I won’t deny that I’m an outlier in being more extreme with these things than most women. However, while the magnitude of the situation may be more extreme, the fundamentals of how it works are basically the same for all (98%) women. It’s worse than most guys know because (1) guys hide the level of their beta-tude from other men, and (2) women hide the level of their sexual disinterest in their monogamous partners from men. I listen to my married women friends talk and NONE of them are having anything but rare, routine, duty sex — with guys they were all once hot for. All the single women are either horny maniacs or in a period where they’re not into men at all and not dating.

    Two, Dawson is right that this pattern is the same with men, it’s just less extreme as they (most of them) maintain sexual interest for longer. They start wanting other women but they also usually still want their partner. But you get the volcanic-level of intensity from a man who is cheating or newly single just like you do with a woman. Monogamy dulls everyone’s interest because we have efficient bodies that don’t put more energy into anything than they need to. I love me nothing more than a newly or about to be single man who’s been having years of duty sex…the level of sexual intensity can’t be matched.

    Also, I have a few male friends that dumped their post-45 year old wives so they could take up with a younger model so it’s not like that doesn’t happen too, though it’s frowned up so it doesn’t happen as much as it might if it was more socially acceptable. And they always rationalize it too, with other reasons. I’ve never heard ANY of them admit it’s because their wives were old and they weren’t attracted anymore…even when I have challenged them on the coincidence of the timing, they get very defensive and deny it and try to blame it on something else.

  14. Sex is for making babies.

    No it’s not. That is almost never the reason human beings have sex. The vast, vast majority of the time, sex has nothing whatsoever to do with actually making a baby. It usually has to do with physical release, pleasure, and sometimes, romantic connection.

    If Kryptokate had a baby or two with her serial monogamy mindset, she would now be a stressed out, miserable single mother, likely reliant on my tax dollars to pay for those kids.

    As usual Maldek, you keep giving advice to people as if it’s still 1952. It isn’t.

    Bad, bad advice.

    Both BD and KryptoKate make the generalization that if one thing occurs less than 2% of instances then it doesn’t exist. I think my GF is 1 in a million

    Guy Disney sure is wonderful, isn’t it? Be sure to comment back here when you two break up, which is coming sooner than you think.

    We are fortunate Kryptokate is being so open with her information.

    Indeed we are. We all owe her a big thank you for her honesty. Seriously. Most women would never admit this stuff, and even react with shocked insolence if a man even suggested it.

    Im all for serial monogamy(ish) from the male perspective. I know thats not a popular view on this blog but its what I like. I always have a GF. Right now I have a live in GF what 13 years my junior and beautiful. I love having a great woman around. But Im realistic with it and know it will end because of previously mentioned biological wiring.

    As long as it’s fully understood by both parties that the relationship is temporary (and that’s a big if), serial monogamy can “work” (notice the quotes) for certain personality types, yes. Examples: those who strongly desire control, or those who have much higher drama tolerance levels, or those with more emotional personalities, etc.

     You’re just not turned on by it… I think you like the control!

    I agree; I think Kryptokate has an inner (masculine!) need to make sure her men don’t fuck other women, even if she was loathe to admit it.

    None of the behaviors above are common among women.

    Oh, wrongo! Most of the behaviors she describes are not only common among women, but prevalent (though Kryptokate is an extreme example).

    In my experience (and I am generalizing) if a women was unrestrained she would find a provider husband that secured her comfort and then find other more exciting men to have sex with.

    Agree.

  15. My only question is how I can have a long BD-type open relationship with a serial monogamist woman, if she gets grossed out with me very soon? How can I find out the woman I’m dating is serious monogamist ASAP, so I can behave accordingly.

  16. My only question is how I can have a long BD-type open relationship with a serial monogamist woman, if she gets grossed out with me very soon?

    She won’t, because:

    1. Women don’t get as bored as fast as Kryptokate. She’s an extreme version of this. Women do get bored, but it takes most women several years, not a few months like Kate.

    2. As I’ve talked about many times, the act of promising and practicing sexual monogamy increases the speed to a woman’s get-bored time. So do things like moving in together, etc.

    So if you never promise monogamy, and never actually get monogamous, she’ll either never get bored with you or take a really, REALLY long time go get bored with you.

    The majority of women who LSNFTE me don’t do it because they’re bored with me; it’s because I’m not following the standard societal rules.

    How can I find out the woman I’m dating is serious monogamist ASAP, so I can behave accordingly.

    There is absolutely no difference in behavior or relationship technique from woman to woman. The only difference is the type of relationship you want to have with that woman: FB, low-end MLTR, high-end MLTR, or OLTR.

    I never screen women. I simply categorize the relationship based on what relationship I think she qualifies for.

  17. @Kryptokate

    It sounds like you happen to live in a place where you are on the right side of the supply/demand curve. Smart girl! But it proves my point. Everyone is the same in this regard.

    Chris Rock said it well, “A [wo]man is as faithful as his[her] options.”

    Krptokate, I want to know if you can imagine an entirely different set of circumstances how you would behave. Let’s say you weren’t as successful (through no fault of your own you were born with a much lower IQ than you happen to have in reality) and you were horribly overweight (again through no fault of your own but due to a bad body type and poor genetics). Also you lived in a town where there were lots of young, attractive, single women and many fewer men (maybe due to living in a previously war-torn country where many of the men were killed in war). Would you not behave exactly as the men with you do now? Find the best one you can and do your level best to tie him down before he realizes how good his options are.

    It goes back to one of BD’s core principles that I completely agree with in that if you have a scarcity mentality that is just a subtle form of oneitis (only to a general population). But there is perceived scarcity — aka oneitis — (because “she’s the one,” “she’s not like the rest,” etc.) and there is actual scarcity.

    For example, when I was in business school we called it the “MBA Effect.” The guys out numbered the women 3:1 and of the women in the program very, very few were attractive. Only a small handful were 8s or above. The result was women who normally wouldn’t get the time of day from most of these guys were getting tons of attention and behaved totally differently than they would have out in the “real world.”

    When people have options they behave like they have options. When people don’t have options they behave that way too. So bottom line, do what Kryptokate does and put yourself in a place where you have lots of options, be the best version of yourself and have a blast!

  18. Phenomenal post.

    As others have said, appreciate Kate’s honesty.

    The way she described the devolving of a woman’s sexual interest to a committed partner felt like a kick in the nuts even though I am a long time reader of this blog.  That’s not a slam in any way, it’s a compliment on the way it was written.

    Little depressing to think all relationships are doomed from the start and to think of my previous long term relationships feeling that way about me, but it’s comforting knowing it’s not necessarily something I did, but just the natural progression of a long term relationship.

    Disagree with one point: only hot women can pull this off.  I see unattractive women who get ridiculous amounts of attention from men.  Most men are so starved for female attention that they will take anything they can get and be happy about it.  It’s practically guaranteed that a woman, unless she is truly hideous, can pull a new guy into her life at any time.

    Great content BD.  Appreciate what you provide us here and at no charge!

  19. But I have serious doubts that most guys have the personality to be Alpha 2.0s. Most are simply far too territorial, sexually jealous, and sentimental. For those who can truly embody outcome independence, they should absolutely be following your advice.

    Bingo! Sadly it’s just like that with most men!

    And @Kriptokate, just two quick questions:

    1) I know you’re an extreme example, but don’t you agree that for most women it would be a blast if they could just drop all the SP and try 100% to be happy on their own terms? Are they so afraid to try and be just a little independent like you?

    2) For how long do you plan to live this relationship lifestyle, as it does not seem to make you happy anymore with these ups and downs? Don’t you think a switch to a Female 2.0ᵀᴹ model would be better?

    I mean, if you could find a sucessfull Alpha 2.0 who would be a good companion and also be ok with all your sexual desires, wouldn’t that be the ideal fit for you? Or do you think BDs comment above is right and you’ll never settle down, even using an OLTR model?

  20. @New Hombre

    My point was that she is EITHER hot OR of higher SMV. If as in Kate’s situation there are more high value men than women and she is very well off financially (making her an outlier among women) allowing her to be on the right side of the supply/demand curve. But if you are saying that women with lower SMV can consistently pull guys of higher SMV I couldn’t disagree more.

    And if that is the case, sounds like BD needs to do a seminar there because the men there are idiots. 🙂

  21. “I think Kryptokate has an inner (masculine!) need to make sure her men don’t fuck other women.”  Ha, yeah, probably. I definitely did when I was younger and more insecure…I used to have a drive to completely own a man emotionally, sexually, mentally and make him obsessed with me. Not anymore. First of all, I realized that as soon as I got what I wanted, the non-attraction started happening. And second, it really, really sucks to break up with someone that you’ve made feel that way about you and then carry around stomach-turning levels of guilt about it. Third, I established myself financially which had an enormous impact on making me just feel more secure in general, thus having less desire to want to control other people. So at this point I would be totally fine seeing an Alpha 2.0 type who was seeing other women – in fact I would prefer it. Just haven’t met any. 

    @ Dawson: if I lived in a place like that, I would move, pronto! 😉 I always tell my desperate single NYC friends that if they want a man, they should move here and they’ll have 3 marriage proposals within a month. Though when I first moved here 15 years ago it was actually populated with the best looking women I’ve ever seen, but things have devolved significantly and now most 20-somethings are overweight. It’s not unusual to go out to a nightspot here and the people in their 30s are fitter and leaner than the people in their early 20s (guys too). Didn’t used to be like that and it’s another factor that has allowed me to extend the shelf-life of my “game” so to speak. Market supply and demand is everything…most of the men here put up with the terrible dating demographics because they’re dedicated to outdoor sports. People should definitely position themselves in a place where the demographics are in their favor.

    @ GOB – BD is totally right about how to stave off the inevitable bed death. If you’re not monogamous and don’t see each other all the time you can draw it out for quite a long time, possibly permanently. The faster you promise fidelity and move in together and the more time you spend together the faster you kill it. After I got divorced I had a boyfriend for four years where we only saw each other on weekends and I stayed attracted to him for all four years, til he insisted on moving in with me, at which point the death knell countdown was on. Of course, at some point you may want to live with someone for companionship and enjoyment of each other’s company and not for sex. If people would just accept that mating in captivity doesn’t work and decouple domesticity from sex, these problems would largely disappear. Live with your friends and fuck your lovers, what’s wrong with that?

    Who is really profiting from promoting Disney Monogamy at this point? The wedding industry, the jewelry industry, the makers of viagra and lube, couples therapists, and divorce lawyers.

     

  22. accept that mating in captivity doesn’t work

    That’s awesome! Love that line.

  23. @ POB, yes, I am actually trying to transition to a 2.0 lifestyle, it’s just not easy to do. The vast majority of people will not go for that. One thing is that over the last year I’ve been getting involved in long-distance relationships and that works well because obviously if they don’t live here, we can’t move in together and when we see each other it’s always fun vacation sexy times. The guys I’ve dated in my location always start leaving stuff at my house, showing up uninvited, demanding more time than I want to spend, etc, so it doesn’t work.

    However, I do think things are changing… For my part I try to evangelize this stuff to the extent I can to spread the word. I give people little nudges here and there. But realistically I can’t be totally open about it, if for no other reason than I can’t risk my professional reputation in a community that’s still pretty traditional. There are still a lot of social bad consequences to being openly sexually unfenced if you’re a woman (though again, this is changing). Not only will a lot of men react badly to it, but all the women who went the traditional route and are totally dependent on their beta-wage-slave husbands staying faithful to them would pretty much want my head on a stake.

    I will say this…any guy that can truly pull off the Alpha 2.0 thing, and not be faking it but really be living it, will be sitting pretty and enjoying himself just fine and dandy. Women who like to have fun fucking love a sexually non-naive guy who doesn’t care about the ASD stuff. Because now that I think about it, I do know *ONE* total Alpha 2.0 guy who’s a friend of mine and he bangs tons of chicks way way younger and way out of his league looks-wise. He’s too fat and bald for me, but he gets LOTS of girls because they all know he’s totally discrete and nonjudgmental and won’t try to control them. Literally I’m not joking, he looks like George Costanza and he sleeps with hot early-20s girls regularly, at first I couldn’t understand how he did it but now I realize it’s because he’s 100% discrete and doesn’t judge or disrespect them for what they do sexually. He shows them a good time and doesn’t care what they do when they’re not around him.

  24. @Dawson Stone

    I am saying that due to high number of desperate guys and with so many people not taking care of themselves physically, this creates a situation where women are often able to date well above what you would normally expect.  Ties into your observation of where do you fit in on the supply/demand curve in your environment.

    Just my observation in my locale.

  25. Just like anything in life, there are many different ways and views..and this is just one. I have quite a few VERY attractive, strictly female friends who are honest with me about their views on men and only one of them really takes on this girl’s views. All the others do want to find a “good” guy to love for a long time (now, whether or not biology causes her to get bored of the man later on is a different story). Not all women think like this one. If you accept this one woman’s views/thoughts as absolute, then you are a moron. She does however,  share some views that EVERY man should be aware of, as there are many women out there like her. The sad part, is that no one ever plays all their cards, since humans are wired to operate with their own self interest first.

  26. @Kryptokate

    Long distance really is a game changer.  At least 1/2 of my rotation is long distance for exactly the reasons you outline. Women that would normally want to try to “tie me down” don’t because it would require them to turn their lives upside down to move. And it is very easy to point this out when they make gestures along those lines. I have had at least 3 girls I can think of that I saw with no issues when they were long distance relocate to my area (at my stern warning not to) and not surprisingly it was downhill fast. My current favorite lives a 2 hour, easy direct flight away and I see her every 2-4 weeks. I have been seeing her for 6 months with zero drama a tons of sex and fun. I have a few women that I see about 1-2x a year that are long distance the longest of which I have known for 9 years now.

  27. @JRM

    I totally agree with you. Kate is by far a severe outlier and I don’t think her perspective is consistent with the average women.

    But I am curious about your comment “The sad part, is that no one ever plays all their cards, since humans are wired to operate with their own self interest first.”

    Why is this sad? This is great news actually. Of course people always operate in their own best self interest. If they didn’t do so they would be behaving irrationally. This means if you pay attention you can nearly always predict how people will react in a given situation. Would you prefer to deal with people that didn’t act in their own self interest first?

  28. Actually, I have a question. I know BD is not in the business of giving advice to women, but I’ll put it out here anyway… do you think there’s a way for a woman to reverse-engineer an Alpha 2.0 guy? BD explains how to get women to go along with that lifestyle, but how does a woman get a man to go along with it?

    I recently met a guy who is by far the oldest I’ve ever dated…10 years older than me, but he also looks amazingly good and is fitter than most guys 15 years younger than he is. And he’s smart and cool and has a good job and his shit together and all that, plus he’s done having kids so I don’t have to worry about that. I made my interest known so he asked me out, but I got the strong impression on our date that he was very into me but that he was feeling guilty, which leads me to believe he probably has a girlfriend or woman he’s seeing. He hasn’t said this, I can just tell by the way he is acting as if he is torn between his attraction to me and what he “should” be doing. I think I have put him in a bad spot by presenting myself as an option when he has a girlfriend.

    This dude is a prime candidate to be Alpha 2.0, he is sexy as hell and doesn’t have any religious hangups. I tried to test the waters with a few jokes and comments indicating my skepticism towards monogamy but he is running typical first-date game on me trying to make a show of what a faithful provider he is. I think it’s all BS and he should just keep his other girl and see me too, like he clearly wants to, instead of being all guilty and conflicted about it. I’m not sure if there’s a way to bring him about to that position? Maybe just sleep with him and let him figure it out for himself? He’s coming over tonight so any ideas….

  29. I am an outlier but I’m also the future, for better or worse (according to most of the manosphere, the downfall of civilization, I know). The way I was in my early 20s, which was totally unusual and not normal back then, is how lots of women in their early 20s are now. And I meet more and more women like me every year. Just this week I happened to sit next to a woman on a plane and we struck up a conversation that ended up getting into these topics and she was basically exactly like me. She said she strongly prefers long distance relationships and actively pursues guys in different cities who have the means to carry on relationships where they see each other once or twice a month so she can have her space during the week and then have amazing I-missed-you-so-much sex on the weekends.

  30. @Kryptokate

    Here is my advice for what it is worth. Step 1. Fuck his brains out. Step 2. Remove all guilt at least as it relates to you. Be clear that you have no interest in trying to own or control him and that you really enjoy his company (and hopefully the sex) and that so long as you two enjoy each other’s company you would love to keep seeing him. I might also say something like, “I am not sure but I got a vibe from you that maybe you are already seeing someone else. If that’s the case I have no problem with it.”

    I wish I had ever heard that from a woman before.

    If he is the guy you think he is, this will work well. My guess is there is a strong likelihood he isn’t in which case it might freak him out.

  31. @ Dawson, ha, not freaking him out is the key. I was thinking about just asking him if he has a girlfriend and then if he denies it, which he probably will, just saying “well that’s ok, even if you do, I’m sure I’m cooler than her” and then kissing him. I’ve just seen several guys claim they’re totally okay with their unfenced chicks at the beginning and then have full-scale meltdowns where they start stalking them and putting spyware on their phones, etc.

    This guy is attractive and rare enough, for my area, that frankly if he *doesn’t* have multiple girlfriends then he is seriously wasting his talent and time in the gym. Hm, maybe I should just tell him that…

    I had a married colleague push hard to try to hook up with me last week and when I turned him down and told him I don’t sleep with married men, he said “I’m not trying to convince you it isn’t wrong, I’m just trying to convince you it’s not that bad.” Lol. Which was actually funny enough that it made me reconsider for 1 second but I stay away from married guys because I don’t want accusations of being a homewrecker or their wives coming after me. I don’t need another woman causing me trouble, I have seen female drama and I’m terrified of it. So as long as his other girl doesn’t come after me, then I’m all good.

  32. Guy Disney sure is wonderful, isn’t it? Be sure to comment back here when you two break up, which is coming sooner than you think.

    You bet i’m going to comment here as i think you have a wonderful system on which i could rebuild my life on. I hope you would still be around by that time. We’re together for 18 years, we’re both 34 and we’re still happy….

     

  33. @ Mih – I hope for your sake that you’re right, and I’m really not trying to rain on your parade, but just be aware that you are coming into a major danger zone. Mid-late 30s when a woman’s fertility clock starts to wind down is when a lot of them suddenly get VERY horny for other options. As if their body is saying to them “you only have a few years left, better go get that seed now while you can!” Seriously I have a few friends that were married all through their 20s and early 30s, very buttoned down and committed, and then around 35 they got divorced and are insanely horny, taking home much younger guys, sleeping with more than one guy a day, all kinds of scandalous stuff they wouldn’t have imagined earlier.

    I really am not saying this to be a jerk but just to warn you to be vigilant, biology is a bitch. There is an enormous difference between a woman in her 30s who’s never been married and wants kids and therefore is provider-hunting and a woman in her 30s who has already been married and has had kids and is full blown recapture-my-lost-youth party mode. Because I live in an area where people marry young, the latter is much more common than the former, which is typical in places like SF and NYC. First warning sign is if your wife gets a boob job. Hint: it’s not for you. It is almost comical how much of an impending-sign-of-divorce the mid-30s boob job is, I could make money betting on it, it’s so predictable. Once she gets those puppies, she’ll want to show them off.

    The good news is that if you get her through this stage and keep her til she’s mid 40s, you’ll be fine and she won’t leave you. Though of course, at that point you’ll probably start thinking of leaving her…

     

  34. @Kryptokate

    Your way will definitely work but I always think you are better off when you don’t put him in a position to lie. Make it so that isn’t possible and he will appreciate it I promise you. In your case you really aren’t trying to catch him in a lie but it is human nature to resent someone at least a little bit that asks you a question where you feel like perhaps you should lie. Just my $0.02 worth.

    I actually like your approach of telling him that he’s an idiot if he doesn’t have a rotation…just say it nicer than that. lol.

    Happy hunting. Sounds like he doesn’t stand a chance.

  35. Hey BD,

    After a lot of horror stories related to divorce rape and the girl getting “accidentaly pregnant” (and having experienced that), I think of getting a vasectomy.

    The thing is, there may be complications. Can I get your point of view on this? Also, did you write an article about how to avoid such things as those I mentionned above?

  36. @Kryptokate

    Younger female here. Reading your comment, I just wanted to say I too have slowly drifted out of my third relationship and am going through a similar revelation phase you seem to have done, so I feel identification with you there. While I can rationalize and say that it’s all their fault for various actions done, I realize that if being honest, I knew about such flaws until day one. It’s like I have a box of ‘bad qualities that I don’t care about until I do. Then I shall lose my shit’ I feel ridiculous saying it but I have no other way to describe it (and I know I am not the only female like this)

    If you could do anything in your life differently, what would you do? I know you spoke of regrets, and sadly I know you’re not the only one. (I only ask you because there’s not many women I know personally who I can ask frankly about this.)

  37. Amazing article. Very educational and containing much honesty. My “bored” boomerang just came back (text) while reading this. How timely. I won’t be replying. Such great insight. Thanks folks.

  38. Just like anything in life, there are many different ways and views..and this is just one. I have quite a few VERY attractive, strictly female friends who are honest with me about their views on men and only one of them really takes on this girl’s views.

    You’re forgetting rule number one: Ignore what women say and only watch what they DO.

    Not all women think like this one. If you accept this one woman’s views/thoughts as absolute, then you are a moron.

    Wrong. To this and all the other comments about how Not All Women Are Like Kryptokate:

    The only difference between Kryptokate and other women is the SPEED at which these feelings occur. Just about all women (barring rare exceptions to the rule) will EVENTUALLY get sexually bored with you! The only difference is that with Kate, this happens in a few months. With most other women, this takes several years, sometimes many years.

    Don’t think for a minute that “most women aren’t like Kryptokate.” YES THEY ARE, they just do what Kate does much more slowly.

    I know BD is not in the business of giving advice to women, but I’ll put it out here anyway… do you think there’s a way for a woman to reverse-engineer an Alpha 2.0 guy? BD explains how to get women to go along with that lifestyle, but how does a woman get a man to go along with it?

    Very long and complicated topic. Not one I can get into without derailing this thread, and this is a blog for men.

    Honestly, if I had more time and I thought there was a big enough market, I would start another business teaching women about Alpha Female 2.0. (which is a very skilled Independent). I know several women doing this very effectively.

    After a lot of horror stories related to divorce rape and the girl getting “accidentaly pregnant” (and having experienced that), I think of getting a vasectomy.

    The thing is, there may be complications. Can I get your point of view on this?

    Here:

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2014/08/24/vasectomy-pros-and-cons/

    Also, did you write an article about how to avoid such things as those I mentionned above?

    Just one article here:

    http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2012/04/15/condoms/

    But I cover that in detail in my open relationships ebook.

  39. @BD

    I just don’t understand why you treat this as a gender issue when it isn’t. PEOPLE get sexually bored. It is a human condition not a female condition. The REALITY of the situation is men tend to get sexually bored far sooner than women do. This is largely due to the fact that men are still the primary earner in most relationships and so the cost for a man to cheat is lower than it is for a woman. The stats are clear. About 50% of married women cheat. About 70% of married men cheat.

    And you are simply dead wrong about how how women think. Most women DO NOT think like Kate does. She is (I am taking what she says at face value) a very attractive woman that also makes a great living. That puts her in like 2% of the female population. Add to that she happens to live in an area where she is on the right end of the supply/demand curve. She isn’t even close to average in terms of how women think or act.

    Most women are primarily looking for a provider. Kate isn’t because she can provide for herself. To her exact point she says, “I established myself financially which had an enormous impact on making me just feel more secure in general, thus having less desire to want to control other people” 

    ANYONE (regardless of gender) that has lots of good options (as Kate does) will exercise their options. If Kate was just average looking and had an average career/financial security and lived in an area where there were more attractive, eligible women she would behave totally differently. She behaves the way she does NOT because she is a woman but because she is smart and has made the best of what she has been given and lives in a good place for herself supply/demand-wise.

    Advising men that MOST women act / think this way is simply bad advice. Men need to be objective about what is REALLY going on and not apply generalizations that are clearly inaccurate to make the decisions that are in their best self interest. Shit, even Kate admits she is the extremist of outliers.

    Men shouldn’t not be monogamous because the woman he falls in love with will eventually dump him. He shouldn’t be monogamous because he doesn’t want to be monogamous. All women don’t get disgusted at having sex with their partners. Some women do. Some men do. Mostly because people let themselves go or because the simply behave in a way that would be a turn off to anyone…man or woman. EVERY SINGLE THING  you say women do, men do as well. It has nothing to do with gender. NOT A DAMN THING.

    If men would simply remain objective and not delude themselves that a relationship is a guarantee of anything and simply take things as they come they would be far happier.

  40. The REALITY of the situation is men tend to get sexually bored far sooner than women do. 

    False. Women usually get sexually bored before men in long-term, sexually monogamous relationships. Men cheat sooner than women, but these men are usually still fucking their wives/girlfriends. Most men don’t cheat because they’re bored. They cheat because they’re horny and desire sexual variety. And more importantly, and germane to the topic here, these men don’t want their wives/girlfriends to leave. Whereas when women get bored, they’re looking for the exit. And soon take it.

     Most women DO NOT think like Kate does.

    They certainly don’t share Kate’s red pill opinions, that’s very true.

    But they do behave the way Kate does in their relationships…just much, much more slowly.

    Men shouldn’t not be monogamous because the woman he falls in love with will eventually dump him. He shouldn’t be monogamous because he doesn’t want to be monogamous. 

    He shouldn’t get monogamous for both reasons.

    And if he gets monogamous, the odds are overwhelming his lady will one day divorce or break up with him. The stats on this are quite clear. To say otherwise is insane.

    If he actually likes serial monogamy and has a high drama tolerance, then maybe he won’t care. But that doesn’t describe most men, including most Alphas. Most men like their women to stick around, even if they’re cheating on said women.

    All women don’t get disgusted at having sex with their partners. 

    “Disgusted?” Perhaps not. Bored and completely unwiling? Yes. And I’m not talking about “all” women, just the majority, particularly those in co-habiting monogamous relationships.

  41. Women usually get sexually bored before men in long-term, sexually monogamous relationships. Men cheat sooner than women, but these men are usually still fucking their wives.

    lol. Who are their wives fucking? Duh? Their husbands. You point makes zero sense. Men cheat sooner but still fuck their wives? So your position is that men cheat sooner (but aren’t bored somehow) but still fuck their wives but when women cheat they cheat later (even though they were bored sooner?) but only fuck the guy they are cheating with and not their husbands? I would love to see some data on such a preposterous claim.

    With regard to how most women think you are simply giving bad advice. It has NOTHING to do with speed (or gender). Most women do not think like Kate. Kate provides for herself and most women do not do this. THIS IS CORE to understanding women (and even more so attractive women) and how to interact with them in a way that make sense. The majority of women seek a provider first and sexual satisfaction second. To ignore this incredibly important point is to give poor guidance.

    And the reason women become less interested in sex is because they settled for a provider and not a man that was sexually interesting to them. As I said in an earlier comment, a women left to her own devices will find a provider first and then find sexual partners that excite her next. It has nothing to do with women getting bored sooner (again the data is clear that men seek other sexual partners first and in a much greater percentage) but that they have chosen providers first who by definition are not going to excite them sexually. Again, IMO you are giving bad advice. As a man you want to be seen as the sexually interesting guy and not as the provider guy. If you can do that the world is your oyster. If you can’t, you are skating up hill.

    VERY VERY VERY few women think or act like Kate. She is in the top 2% if not higher. IMO thinking most women act this way will lead to bad decision making.

  42. So your position is that men cheat sooner (but aren’t bored somehow) but still fuck their wives but when women cheat they cheat later (even though they were bored sooner?)

    Yup. Go back up and read my comment above. To summarize one last time: 1. Men don’t necessarily cheat because they’re bored with their current woman. They cheat for many other (mostly biological) reasons. 2. Women don’t suddenly cheat when they get bored. Bored monogamous wives usually go non-sexual instead. Some eventually, after a long time of this, cheat. But it takes a while.

    Men and women are different and behave differently.

    Most women do not think like Kate. Kate provides for herself and most women do not do this.

    I’m not talking about whether or not women support themselves and have never mentioned that once here. You’re arguing with yourself.

    And the reason women become less interested in sex is because they settled for a provider and not a man that was sexually interesting to them.

    Indeed that’s true for some women, no question about it.

    At the same time, many other women will indeed marry a man who is sexually attractive to them, and then later get bored with said man. Just go ask 10 married men and they’ll tell you all about it.

    In both cases, these women were having sex with their husband/BF, and then cut way back on the sex with husband/BF, because the sexual attraction is now less than it was. If you disagree with the reasons why this happens, that’s fine, but the point is it happens.

  43. I’m not talking about whether or not women support themselves and have never mentioned that once here. You’re arguing with yourself.

    I know. THAT is my point. Most women do no think like Kate because Kate provides for herself and most women do not. You are missing the most important difference between how Kate thinks and how most women think. Most women need a provider first. Kate does not.

    At the same time, many other women will indeed marry a man who is sexually attractive to them, and then later get bored with said man. Just go ask 10 married men and they’ll tell you all about it.

    It isn’t true for some women…it is true for MOST women because most women do not provide for themselves. In fact most of my guy friends are married and in most cases the man is the one that closes his eyes and remembers the fitter, younger version of his wife when he is fucking her. I don’t know what guys you run with but my married guy friends would LOVE some variety if they could get it without drama and hassle. Most men marry a woman that they are sexually attracted to but with the average women gaining 21 lbs in the first year of marriage (unrelated to child birth I might add) it is more often than not the man that becomes less interested in the woman which is why men cheat more often and sooner. Your position that women become bored sooner but don’t cheat has no basis in reality since more men (70% versus 50%) are unfaithful during marriage (regardless of the timeframe.) Again, you need data for such a preposterous claim.

    Again, my point is that if women marry a provider first and foremost (even one they are somewhat attracted to) their primary concern is being provided for above all else. NOT an issue for Kate and why she is a terrible model to base the average women’s behavior on. Women have less sex once they are married because exit costs are now higher for the husband and they can get away with it now that they have locked down a provider.

  44. Holy sh*t, best article on the site!

    I have to thank Kate for her responses here, because this is going to help me to no end in my future dating life. Whether or not the average woman is like her is sort of not the point. Look at it from another angle; if you learn what the extreme is like (Kate),  if you prepare yourself so you can deal with that (assume all women are like that), you can deal with any other women. And as BD said, if this process happens to all women, except more slowly, well then you’re set and in a much better position because you’ve imagined the extreme.

    It’s sort of like training for an ultra-marathon, and then finding out you are running a ‘regular’ 26 mile one. Well now that 26 mile one will be a joke when you are used to 75-100 mile ones.

    Whilst BD has stated already that many of the things Kate mentions are the things that happen in the long-term (such as sexual boredom etc.), seeing it confirmed by a woman is the kick up the a$$ I needed.

    I hadn’t read this site for a good few months, since getting involved with a woman. Infact, after getting your dating site profile ebook BD, I was getting 4+ new opening emails from women each day, no joke. Even older ones who were worried about the stigma associated with dating a younger person, were opening me just to chat. Holy shit that stuff works. Anyway…. I’ve noticed myself recently becoming pretty needy and I have felt it spiraling (I’m still new to this and without some guidance I just fall back into beta mode). BD, you will be pleased to know that the first thing I thought of was to visit your site and start reading again. And then I saw this beauty of a post. I have now been fixed again, LOL! If I stop reading, I’ll spiral into neediness and oneitis over the period of 2-3 months and then I need to re-read this stuff to snap-out of it. I’m just gonna keep reading from now on LOL.

    Anyway, thanks again Kate. I got a few laughs out of some of the comments; like the “who benefits from marriage? Viagra and lube companies” one. HAHAHA!

  45. L’s writing style is humorously similar to…well never mind. It doesn’t matter.

    But you too (not surprisingly) are missing my points.

    Your analogy of the marathon is the wrong one. Let me give you a more accurate analogy. If you studied that Calculus textbook all night and walked into an English Lit final you have big problems.

    If you are looking for women that think/act like Kate you will almost never find them. That’s is because that isn’t how women in general act. Women look for a provider first and foremost and because women hold a huge advantage in divorce they are able to get away with murder (well not actual murder.)

    The reason PEOPLE (not just women) get bored sexually is in part because relationships cause people to become complacent. This tends to impact women more than men because as I said they have more leverage when ending things. THAT is the much bigger contributor to why women end marriages way more often than men do. Men have more to lose.

    Men cheat sooner. Men cheat at a greater rate. Again this has to do with women having more leverage in divorce and the fact that on average a man’s SMV will rise in the first ten years of marriage and a women’s will plummet. It all goes back to the supply / demand curve.

    And you keep talking about how Kate really is just like most women except for the speed with which she makes the seemingly same decisions. That simply isn’t the case. Kate doesn’t need a provider and that is the main driver for most women. It has NOTHING to do with speed. It has to do with Kate and most women having wildly different main goals.

    Why does this matter? Because what men SHOULD be focused on (and normally BD does too) is that most women are not like Kate and men need to be vigilant against:

    – Don’t be a provider. It is kind of like playing poker. If you can’t spot the chump at the table it is probably you. Providing for a women will ultimately dry up the pussy.
    – Don’t let yourself be seen as the provider-type. Guys frequently make this mistake because at some level they understand that women are looking for a provider (aka nice guy) first and foremost. But by not being the provider guy you can be the FunGuyToHaveSexWith. That’s the guy you want to be.
    – Don’t get sucked into a long-term relationship…ESPECIALLY a monogamous one. You will hand the power dynamic to your female partner and that will never play well for you.
    – If you do foolishly get into a long-term monogamous relationship keep a sharp eye out for your own sexual boredom. It is way more likely to be you versus her that feels this way first. If you do feel this way, end things. It was a bad idea in the first place.

  46. But realistically I can’t be totally open about it, if for no other reason than I can’t risk my professional reputation in a community that’s still pretty traditional. There are still a lot of social bad consequences to being openly sexually unfenced if you’re a woman (though again, this is changing). Not only will a lot of men react badly to it, but all the women who went the traditional route and are totally dependent on their beta-wage-slave husbands staying faithful to them would pretty much want my head on a stake.

    @Kriptokate

    Yep, there’s strong SP at work on most communities, and it’s really bad (socially speaking) for strong/intellingent/independent women like yourself. Absolutely double standard because sexual 20 year old chicks are “only having fun because they’re discovering life” while over 30 independents are “full-time sluts who steals other people’s husbands/BF/whatever”.

    If we as non-monogamous Alpha men have to deal with it in small waves, you’re probably avoiding a tsunami keeping most of it to yourself.

    I thank you for your (rare) honesty and willingness to be public analyzed like that. Takes some real guts to do it! And I really hope you can find your Alpha 2.0 who, besides being a life partner, you let you have all the fun in the world with younger good-looking studs.

  47. Writing style is similar to who LOL? BD?

    And I do agree with what you said above. My point wasn’t to conflict what you said within comments, but to say that you can consider it from a different angle. I never said Kate is like most women, I said IF she was. If we think of it that she is, we’d (as in those still crappy with women like me) be better prepared to deal with ones who are a (no offence Kate) lesser pain in the ass.

    But yeah, that most aren’t is clear. And yes, it can’t be denied that the provider part plays a huge role in many things and Kate is without it. This would no doubt influence things greatly and she’s obviously the extreme, but nevertheless this was still helpful.

    I’m not knowledgable nor experienced enough to debate things in this topic but either way that isn’t the point of my reply. I’m here to learn and your tips at the end there have helped also. My main take home was the whole ‘don’t do monogomy and women get bored sexually’. It took a woman’s perspective to fully get it; whether she’s an extreme example or not, it’s helped me snapout from neediness etc.

    Oh and regarding the complacency in relationships; yes I agree. Shit just gets dull. Especially when you live close. My gf recently moved back 15 mins away from me instead of an hour and I ain’t looking forward to it.

  48. Great eye opening post, bitter cure for many guys out there, and great arguments for Alpha 2.0 lifestyle.

    I am big fan of BD and his philosophy (though I am not sure if I will be able to fully embody it to my own life, as I am not the kind of person who wants to meet new girls using same patterns all over and over again, seems like a bit of endless grinding…)

    However, I still do not think that interview with one particular woman proves anything so strongly as BD suggests. Other articles aside, Kryptokate is only one woman, and very on the extreme side or far end tail of Gauss curve when it comes to women. Samplesize of one person doesn´t prove anything other than that particular person´s tendencies and life choices. Even if she says that people around her are very similar, still the sample of them is

    1. not that huge

    2. not that relevant, because it makes sense for her to meet people who are kinda like her (like the saying that in terms of personality we are averages of people we meet most often)

    Also BD himself is and always will be a bit biased in this matter, not only because he sets himself as a opinion leader against monogamy in community (position such as his is not easily abandoned no matter what), but mostly because his own (presumably extremely bad and painful) personal experience with marriage.

    And his samplesize of women he knows is even more tilted to support his side of argument, because he usually only meets women who are willing to date him on his terms, cuts off swiftly the rest and doesn´t even get the chance to meet those who are happy to live in mono relationship.

    Of course sex with one person after 3 years time won´t be the same as in NRE and of course most of the high sex drive people will have hard time in monogamy, but many people aren´t like that, on contrary, some will even enjoy sex more with the same partner, when it is accompanied by unconditional trust and longterm mutual supportive relationship. With that, they can try tantra and advanced sexual stuff for deeper sexual experience.

    I know 4 couples personally who are together for 7 – 30 years with no issues described in the interview. Also I was in a monogamous relationship for 6 years and it was me who broke up with my gf, despite her being still totally in deep love and attraction with me. And even though I broke up with her she still comes to me occasionally to cook something for me and have sex with me (and yes, the sex is more passionate now when she doesn´t have me nailed down in monogamous relationship).

    So I would say that conclusions of the article, while generally spot on, are more on the extreme side and should be taken with the grain of salt.

    That being said, I still think that lifestyle of Alpha 2.0 offered by BD here is by far the best when it comes to individual happiness.

    Cheers

  49. Also, in addition to my comment above:

    “If you can’t spot the chump at the table it is probably you.”

    LOL!!! Hilarious. When I find myself doing things that make me seem provider like, I do notice I get spoken to with much more dismissal. You know, sort of like she sees me as a servant.

    When I say no and don’t put up with shit, she soon buckles when she sees she has pissed me off. My GF is a real awkward one; talks down to me often, but then if I bite back she shits herself (and by bite back, I mean don’t put up with her shit and let her know when I’m annoyed. I do NOT mean physical aggression.)

    Thing is, I’m incredibly laid back personality wise, and most things don’t bother me. Then it builds up until I’m being spoken to like dirt and it gets too much.

  50. “No it’s not. [Making babies] is almost never the reason human beings have sex. The vast, vast majority of the time, sex has nothing whatsoever to do with actually making a baby. It usually has to do with physical release, pleasure, and sometimes, romantic connection.”

    This is correct. People are NOT biologically programmed to reproduce, they are biologically wired with a sex drive and the result *can* be offspring. Do you honestly think cows know that they’re going to have a kid when they’re mating? Of course not. The whole “we’re programmed to want kids” thing is SOCIETAL PROGRAMMING AT ITS FINEST. People have been conditioned to want children, it’s not an internal biological drive. I wish more people understood this.

    Remainder of this comment has been deleted. The topics of free will, determinism, and nihilism are now officially off-topic for this blog. Please refer to this post for more information.

  51. Obviously it’s hard to tell how “most” people are about a topic that is private, shrouded in taboo, and not subject to honest public examination. And it’s true that we all tend to make friends with and surround ourselves with similar people, which provides a bias. As compared to most women I am definitely more sex-focused and thus more likely to axe a relationship when the sex isn’t as good because for me that’s the main point and I can’t tolerate being stuck with a guy when I know the sex elsewhere will be better….

    Also, the economic factor Dawson keeps bringing up definitely IS a huge factor. Because I just don’t care about that at all and have never expected or been in a situation where a guy provided me with any economic benefit. With men, I solely care about (1) sex, and (2) fun/humor/intellectual stimulation. Though, it’s a bit of a chicken and egg question, since part of the reason I was so motivated to make good money for myself was specifically because I KNEW I would never be someone who could compromise on sexual/personality attraction just to get economic support from a guy. I honestly do not understand how some women marry completely schlubby, dorky, zero-sex-appeal guys just so they can live a boring life with a white picket fence, I think that’s crazy. But to each their own.

    ALL THAT SAID, I *do* think that the basic biologic process of increasing sexual disinterest with monogamy DOES happen with almost all women. I have just heard it too many times from all different women in all different situations. And heard too many guys complain about their once hot-to-trot girlfriend now being totally sexually disinterested. I know lots of couples that go from hot and heavy to virtually sexless in a matter of 1-4 years. It might be the case that the more horny and sexually responsive a woman is in the beginning, the faster it drops off, while others are more steady over time… I know plenty of women who once couldn’t keep their hands off their guy and a few years later do not want to EVER have sex with him, and when they do, it’s best described as masturbating with another person’s body rather than what I would consider true sex.  And yes that happens for guys too…they don’t usually start a relationship preferring masturbation to sex with their partner, but a lot of guys get to that point.

    Serious question for guys: based on your experience, how long does it take into a relationship before it requires a bunch of foreplay to get a woman physically aroused? 6 months? Two years? Five? I’m really curious. Because we all know that in the beginning, foreplay is totally unnecessary and she is ready to go basically as soon as you touch her. For me, I can always tell the day that spontaneous sexual arousal stops happening, which will be 2 months to 2 years into the relationship depending on how often we see each other, and it is always  a very sad day for me indeed. I’ve never had any woman that I’ve asked about this tell me differently, so if guys’ experiences are different, that would be interesting to know.

  52. , how long does it take into a relationship before it requires a bunch of foreplay to get a woman physically aroused?

    I don´t know, I usually go for a longer foreplay anyway, just to see her begging me to penetrate her….but I would say it depends on the circumstances – whether you live together, or whether you only see each other only once a week. If I had to guess, 2 years is generally about right, IF you do not try to mix it up sometimes (like tantra, roleplays, bondage etc.)

  53. I almost never comment on sites but I just had to chime in.

    Kate, thank you very much for taking this on and for the honesty. Gotta love a woman with balls 😉

    BD, great analysis. This is one of the best posts on your site, put it on some “must read” list.

     

  54. Most women do no think like Kate because Kate provides for herself and most women do not. 

    What is your contention then? That women who provide for themselves don’t get sexually bored with men? If you could state your core contention in 3 sentences or less I can tell you if I agree or disagree.

    Your position that women become bored sooner but don’t cheat has no basis in reality since more men (70% versus 50%) are unfaithful during marriage (regardless of the timeframe.) 

    You keep beating the cheating=boredom horse, and I’ve already addressed that, twice. This will be my last time. Women get bored and stop having sex. Men cheat for all kinds of reasons, many of which have nothing to do with boredom, and often men cheat because they aren’t getting sex from their wives, who are bored!

    L’s writing style is humorously similar to…well never mind. It doesn’t matter.

    I love how every time there’s a very positive comment on here, disagreers automatically imply that it’s me. Nice. If your argument was valid you wouldn’t have to stoop to such insults. I’ve never sock puppeted this site and never will.

    BD himself is and always will be a bit biased in this matter

    I’m extremely biased, yeppers! But, that doesn’t mean the facts I present are wrong. If one has has the contention “Women don’t get bored,” then you must present facts and evidence to back that up, instead of just saying, “Not all women are like Kryptokate.”

    Of course sex with one person after 3 years time won´t be the same as in NRE and of course most of the high sex drive people will have hard time in monogamy, but many people aren´t like that, on contrary, some will even enjoy sex more with the same partner, when it is accompanied by unconditional trust and longterm mutual supportive relationship.

    That is a very, very small percentage of modern-day, Western humans. The exception proves the rule.

    I know 4 couples personally who are together for 7 – 30 years with no issues described in the interview.

    Read item number 35 here.

    People are NOT biologically programmed to reproduce, they are biologically wired with a sex drive and the result *can* be offspring.

    Correct. Maldek is an extreme Alpha 1.0 who likes to make extreme Alpha 1.0 statements and then not back them up when challenged. Which is fine.

    I would say that 98% of sex that occurs on a day-to-day basis has nothing whatsoever to do with creating kids.

    I *do* think that the basic biologic process of increasing sexual disinterest with monogamy DOES happen with almost all women. 

    Correct. And this is irrelevant of how much money a woman makes, whether or not men get bored too (of course they do)  and whether or not men cheat.

    Serious question for guys: based on your experience, how long does it take into a relationship before it requires a bunch of foreplay to get a woman physically aroused? 6 months? Two years? Five? 

    That’s hard to say but most shit starts to hit the fan in monogamous relationships at the three-year mark.

  55. What is your contention then? That women who provide for themselves don’t get sexually bored with men? If you could state your core contention in 3 sentences or less I can tell you if I agree or disagree.

    My contention is that you hold Kate up as a model for how women think/behave (albeit faster) when that is simply not the case. Most women’s primary driver is to find a provider (and Kate’s isn’t since she is self sufficient) and not to primarily find a sexually satisfying partner. That to view women this way is a fundamental mistake on how women view the world and how they behave in relationships.

    That’s three sentences.

    And you keep beating the drum that women become sexually bored faster then men do. Even if it might be true that men cheat for other reasons, so do women. PEOPLE cheat for lots of reasons. It would seem more likely that since women are primarily looking for a provider and men are primarily looking for someone they are really attracted to sexually that a woman’s desire would drop off faster than a man’s because it started that way to begin with. You have taken the most extreme outlier of outliers in Kate and conflated her position on sexual boredom to all of women and posted it up as a warning sign for men to look out for. What men need to look out for (and you do usually focus on this) is women looking for a provider. Sexual boredom is a side effect at best and applies to all people in all relationships.

  56. @Kryptokate

    Honest and very well written. Do you have a blog? If not, I suggest starting one!

    To answer your question, the evidence suggests that the great majority of women are sexually bored with their partners by the four year mark. The biological reason for this is that their DNA “wants” them to find another man to make another baby with, as four years was how long it took prehistoric humans to raise a child to semi-independence.

     

    @Blackdragon

    The biggest issue I see with your system is that the vast majority of women won’t fuck a man who is fucking other women, which isn’t surprising given that it directly conflicts with their basic biology. Therefore it’s unclear to me how it can work for any more than a tiny minority of men.

  57. @ Dawson – Just to clarify, when you say that most women are looking first and foremost for a provider, you mean that’s what they’re looking for in relationships, right? Surely you don’t mean that that’s what they’re looking for first and foremost in all the other situations where they engage in sex/hookups. Because clearly that is NOT the case, and you obviously must know this yourself given your abundance of NSA partners.

    Also, most young (college age to mid 20s) women get into relationships with guys the same age, and hardly any guys at that age have any ability to provide whatsoever. Most of them can barely support themselves. So I don’t think looking for a provider, at least at those younger ages, is always a primary or even relevant factor, because there are plenty of relationships happening and most don’t involve provision for the woman. If you look at this report, less than a third of women age 20-35 who are coupled up are with a man who makes more money than them:  http://www.pwc.com/en_JG/jg/publications/the-female-millennial_a-new-era-of-talent.pdf

    At any rate, regardless of what “most” women are looking for now (which I think varies a ton by both age and location), the future trend should be for more women to be like me, since less women in the future will ever be financially supported by men.

  58. Most women’s primary driver is to find a provider (and Kate’s isn’t since she is self sufficient) and not to primarily find a sexually satisfying partner. 

    Wonderful. We agree.

    And you keep beating the drum that women become sexually bored faster then men do.

    Because I’m right. Women generally (not always, but generally) get sexually bored faster than men in long-term monogamous relationships and thus begin refusing sex before men do. I have articles all over this blog demonstrating this statistically, scientifically, and biologically.

    If it’s seriously your contention is that most men in long-term monogamous relationships get sexually bored with their partners just as fast as women do, keeping in mind that men often cheat even when they aren’t sexually bored with their partners, then show me your evidence and I’d be happy to take a look.

    The biggest issue I see with your system is that the vast majority of women won’t fuck a man who is fucking other women

    Incorrect. Read items 42 and 43 right here.

    As I’ve said a million times: At least 70% of women will go for a nonmonogamous relationship provided the man does everything correctly and in the correct sequence, which men virtually never do.

    For example, blurting out you want to fuck other women right on the first date clearly doesn’t work. Neither does being monogamous for a long time, suddenly changing your mind, and trying to talk your girlfriend into it. Those are the “techniques” men usually use, and of course they fail. But it’s not because women are unwilling, it’s because men are completely clueless about how to create and structure these kinds of relationships, mostly because of extreme pro-monogamy Societal Programming.

    Fun coincidence: Just today I was talking to my hairdresser about open marriages. High intelligence, decently pretty, very skinny, mid-40s, married and monogamous for 18 years, 3 kids. She flat out said, “Yeah, if my husband came to me with that and suggested an open marriage, I’d be like, ‘Fine. Let’s do it.’ But I’ll never bring it up.”

    the future trend should be for more women to be like me, since less women in the future will ever be financially supported by men.

    Correct. They’ll be supported by big government (i.e. my tax dollars) instead. It’s already happened.

    Women used to be financially supported by men who loved them. Now they’re financially supported by complete strangers being held at gunpoint.

    Not an improvement.

  59. @KryptoKate

    Absolutely I am talking about relationships. In general, most women that cannot financially support themselves will put a guy that might see into the “relationship potential” bucket or the “want to fuck” bucket. And the reason I never let myself get put into the provider bucket is because that’s the kiss of death in terms of getting laid quick, easy and with minimal drama.

    This study showed that if you ignore single mother households, men are the breadwinner in 4 out of 5 married households. The problem with the study you linked to is that it ignores the single most important factor…children. 82% of women will have children and women aren’t stupid. They want a provider so they can afford to have a child(ren), provide for that child(ren) and be able to not work so they can be at home with that child(ren). So while it is totally true that women earn about the same (the 77 cents on the dollar crap that is talked about is complete bullshit when this is taken into account) as men do early in their career this is NOT the case later because men stay in the workforce and many women do not…and PLAN to leave the workforce from the get to. When is the last time you heard a guy say, “Man it’s awesome. I met this amazing woman that has such a great career I am going to be able to afford to stay home with the kids”? The answer is never. lol.

    And I completely disagree that when it is younger it is irrelevant at all. The difference is instead of it being his ability to provide it is his POTENTIAL to provide. Maybe he comes from money. Maybe he is a smart kid and getting great grades or going to a good school.

    Listen to how younger women talk about their 19-25 year old boyfriends. They are looking for men that likely WILL BE good providers. They are simply looking for the pre-cursors to success. Intelligence, drive, ambition, discipline, etc. Try to find a woman that is super excited to have a serious relationship and brags to her friends with a bartender, bouncer, HS dropout, cab driver, garbage man, etc.

    In HS I would tend to agree with you but once you hit college it changes and women want a provider or a guy with high provider potential in terms of whom they are going to have a relationship with.

  60. Wonderful. We agree.

    You agreed with my statement but clipped the most important part:

    Most women’s primary driver is to find a provider (and Kate’s isn’t since she is self sufficient) and not to primarily find a sexually satisfying partner. That to view women this way is a fundamental mistake on how women view the world and how they behave in relationships.

    If you don’t mind please tell me how you define/measure that someone is sexually bored? That they refuse sex with their partner? Shit if that’s the case it is also true that women are more sexually bored before they are married too. The basis of your argument is backwards. Men simply have a higher sex drive. A nice article was written about this in Psychology Today. By definition if one group has a higher sex drive then the other group will refuse sex sooner and more often. It is NOT a measure of sexual boredom but a measure of sex drive. Add to this my earlier point that you agreed with. If women are marrying first and foremost a provider and men and marrying first and foremost someone they are sexually attracted to it would further exacerbate what I outlined above regarding sex drive. If your measure of boredom is something other than refusing sex please let me know what that is.

  61. Suicide is not illegal

    @Nihilist:

    I don’t know where you went to law school, but you need to hire a lawyer and sue it.

    Also, isn’t nihilism off topic for this blog?

  62. It is NOT a measure of sexual boredom but a measure of sex drive.

    You want to have a big argument about the minutia and I have no interest. Bottom line, we agree on the overall issue. Leave it at that.

    Also, isn’t nihilism off topic for this blog?

    Thank you Jack for reminding me. That portion of his comment has been removed.

    And last warning “hellofriend,” one more nihilism post and you’re gone.

  63. That is a very, very small percentage of modern-day, Western humans. The exception proves the rule.

    Do you have any viable data backing this statement? Not trying to be nosy, just want to see what very very small percentage exactly means.

  64. I can relate to a lot of what Kryptokate said, except I don’t get bored quite as quickly and looking back on how my past relationships ended, I wasn’t normally the one to break it off. They were mostly “mutual breakups,” but I often incited drama that would eventually lead to the breakup. I noticed myself starting to do this in my current relationship and have since been making a strong effort to save it. Why would I do this if I started feeling bored? Probably a mixture of societal programming to “make it work,” a feeling that I owe it to him and don’t want to hurt him, and a certain level of comfort we’ve built in our relationship – I would genuinely be sad to lose our fun weekends together, even though I do desire variety at times.

    I also have never dated an Alpha 2.0 and can’t even think of any I know. My boyfriend, who is not at all controlling in any other areas, said that if another guy ever had sex with his girlfriend he would go nuts (we were watching a movie that had this scene when he said this). This is by far the prevailing attitude among men, even if they are totally cool about everything else!

    What I find interesting is that our society seems to have become MORE monogamy-minded in some aspects. My mom, who attended high school in the 60s, talks about dating multiple people at once – a girl would go to the movies with Tom this week and for dinner with Dan next week, and that was the norm. Even my grandma told me to “play the field”! That certainly is a more efficient way to find someone, but today girls who “date around” are perceived as slutty and as such, many will try to get into a monogamous relationship quickly in an attempt to not be viewed that way.

    I also agree about the correlation between women seeking a provider and women who want children. I’ve never wanted either, and my mom always drilled it in to me to never expect that a man will provide for me – so, I’ve planned my life to be able to take care of myself, and have done so. I’ve never dated a guy who took care of me financially – in fact, most have been of lower socioeconomic status; I date men for attraction, not wealth. My only requirement is that he provide for himself; I don’t believe in combining bank accounts, buying property together, etc. I’ve actually known UNMARRIED couples who did both of these things – talk about a recipe for disaster!

  65. @BD. I know you don’t need me to defend you but…..
    @Dawson. Are you a troll?
    @Kate. Below is my experience but with the boot on the other foot maybe.

    30 months back, I met the most amazing woman. She had the lot. Much younger than me and running her own small business (as do I).

    I had a great deal of respect for this woman, I didn’t want her getting hurt. We had sex from the get go.  Knowing very quickly what she wanted, and knowing that I wasn’t the man to provide it, within a week, I said the following to her.

    “I am never going to marry you, or anyone else. I am never going to live with you, or anyone else. I am not going to provide for you but I will spend time, but no money, helping you put your business on a better footing. I also know, that in time, you will want more and that we will part. I also know that you will meet someone else but until then, we can be each others mutual support system and I will treat you with respect and dignity. When you meet someone else, which you will, all I ask is that you tell me and then we can see how the three of us want to deal with it.”

    I knew that she might just walk out then and there but she didn’t. Little did I know then that this actually made me more attractive to her. We had sex a gazillion times a week for more than a year. But, as ever, bit by bit, she began to lose interest. The cause is irrelevant BUT, each time she began to talk about love and marriage etc., I was legitimately able to remind her of where I stood. And she did go Disney quite regularly.

    Eventually she met someone else, but didn’t tell me. When I found out, I wished her good luck and told her my door was open. (She wasn’t going to have sex with both of us). This was last January. She has just got in touch, so I guess Mr. Beta Male has outlived his usefulness.

    When she left, she asked why I wasn’t jealous. Wasn’t I going to put up some fight at least? Said I didn’t love her. I said that I DID love her, that’s why I was letting her go.

    Kate, I’m sure if you were up front with men from the very beginning, most would stay. A few might leave but who needs them???

    If only people would be honest about their intentions, life would be better.

  66. @ Louise  I’m not sure what I would have done differently, as the problem is so intractable. I’ve tried various things…dating super nice loving guys, marriage, open relationship, dating dominating Alpha 1.0s, NSA friends with benefits arrangements…nothing is a perfect solution.

    I can’t say I have actual regrets, since I’m quite happy with my life right now. I just wish that the men I like to hang out with…the open-minded, laid-back, intellectually stimulating/funny/smart ones…were the same as the guys I’m attracted to, who are sexually aggressive, athletic, hot, and intense in bed (but they’re not usually very interesting to talk to and not usually open to nonconventional ideas). If I could find one who was both, I’d be a happy camper. I mean, I’m all of those things so it’s not like it’s impossible to embody both. 😉

    I’m sure they exist but they’re also mostly taken. So maybe that’s my advice…snatch one up while they’re still available!

    Also, I’d max out your sex appeal while you’re young and capitalize on it if you can, then make sure you invest in developing marketable skills that will make you good money long term, so you have as many options as possible. Doing the work to establish yourself sucks, but once it comes to fruition, it is much, much better to have lots of money in your 30s than to not. Regardless of what anyone says about money not buying happiness…I am much happier in my 30s than my 20s and that’s mostly because I was poor in my 20s.

    Also, try not to let yourself engage in behaviors that encourage your boyfriends to become your supplicants. It’s not something women do consciously but they do it all the same. It will make you unattracted much faster when you feel like he’s your minion or that he would never in a million years leave you no matter what you did. So women shoot themselves in the foot by encouraging their guys to emphasize the beta.

  67. @Kryptokate

    What great advice! I echo what Michael said. If you don’t have a blog, you should start one. I would love to read it. Voices like yours don’t exist or are certainly rare as hell.

    @Al

    Not a troll. Just frustrated that BD won’t answer what are VERY clear questions and simply dodges what are genuine disagreements on the way women think/see the world/act. His position on sexual boredom being just one of them.

    And I am curious that when you were seeing the women you described if you were honest with her about sleeping with other women while seeing her? It would seem odd to me that she would be ok with that but not ok sleeping with you when she met someone else. And to be fair you had sex with her a bunch of times before you shared any of it…given you had sex from the get go and didn’t tell her for a week.

    If I read what Kate wrote correctly (Kate please correct me here) she dispenses the truth based on what she believes the guy can handle from her initial time spent with the guy. Given how few men can handle a woman they are dating sleeping with other people and in terms of maximizing her own happiness this seems a reasonable approach and even in your approach sex is gotten (probably several times) before any truth is provided. Just an observation.

  68. @ Mih – I hope for your sake that you’re right, and I’m really not trying to rain on your parade, but just be aware that you are coming into a major danger zone. Mid-late 30s when a woman’s fertility clock starts to wind down is when a lot of them suddenly get VERY horny for other options. As if their body is saying to them “you only have a few years left, better go get that seed now while you can!” Seriously I have a few friends that were married all through their 20s and early 30s, very buttoned down and committed, and then around 35 they got divorced and are insanely horny, taking home much younger guys, sleeping with more than one guy a day, all kinds of scandalous stuff they wouldn’t have imagined earlier.

    I really am not saying this to be a jerk but just to warn you to be vigilant, biology is a bitch. There is an enormous difference between a woman in her 30s who’s never been married and wants kids and therefore is provider-hunting and a woman in her 30s who has already been married and has had kids and is full blown recapture-my-lost-youth party mode. Because I live in an area where people marry young, the latter is much more common than the former, which is typical in places like SF and NYC. First warning sign is if your wife gets a boob job. Hint: it’s not for you. It is almost comical how much of an impending-sign-of-divorce the mid-30s boob job is, I could make money betting on it, it’s so predictable. Once she gets those puppies, she’ll want to show them off.

    The good news is that if you get her through this stage and keep her til she’s mid 40s, you’ll be fine and she won’t leave you. Though of course, at that point you’ll probably start thinking of leaving her…

    Thanks for your concern that seems like good advice. We have a lot of things going for us – we are extremely loyal and honest to each other, we like each other a lot and our goals are to live a life where we are happy together; we are both extremely jealous and possessive of the other and we both accept that; we don’t believe in marriage and neither of us wants any kind of barrier to exit the relationship.

    That being said, she is a woman and therefore nagging, betaization and woman talk occurs and i am kind of an alpha 1.0 in this relationship so guy drama, yelling, lecturing and rules…

    And i am aware of the effects human biology can have. I crashed hard out of NRE. During the NRE phase i thought that the explosive fire that burned in me is going to last forever and when it stopped i was devastated. I wanted it back and i had no idea how to get it. It took me several years to adjust. Also it is very hard for me to sacrifice sexual diversity for what i have, but it’s a tradeoff i accept as the pain of her fucking somebody else would be much more than the pleasure i would gain. So i understand clearly the effects of natural needs. Therefore i need to be aware of the rules of attraction and other biological changes that can occur – that is why i am interested in what BD and other intelligent men in the seduction community have to say.

  69. Lady seems like an outlier to me. Most normal chicks I know over 27 are in a stable marriage.

  70. Great post Blackdragon. Your comment here is fascinating;

    “This above paragraph is the most accurate, well-written description of what monogamy is for a woman. It’s why the real divorce rate is over 64%, why 82% of divorces are initiated by women, and why 75% of boyfriend/girlfriend relationships are terminated by the woman. It’s why we live in a society of fatherless children, alimony, child support, and relationship drama.”

    It would seem that serial relationships, promiscuity etc etc. possibly has a lot to do with modern-day women’s inability to maintain sexual attraction to the same man over a long period. Men are made differently so it’s possible that’s why the virgin bride was so sacred for centuries not only for spiritual reasons, but for biological reasons too in order to possibly increase the chances of, or even maintain this constant affection and sexual attraction. SuperSlavisWife mentioned in a previous post that a woman forms a unique bond with her partner whenever she loses her virginity to him.

    I have a link of the Social pathologist’s blog which shows a study carried out by the Heritage Foundation illustrating the effects of what I mentioned above. I was wondering if Dr. Klussmann had uncovered any evidence in her study of co-habiting relationships to illustrate women’s sexual attraction to their co-habiting partner without any previous relationships. It has been mentioned many times that the woman’s sexual attraction fades after three years of co-habiting, but it would be interesting to know if it is maintained if we know a woman has not had any previous partners.

    http://socialpathology.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/promiscuity-data-guest-post.html

     

     

     

  71. Lady seems like an outlier to me. Most normal chicks I know over 27 are in a stable marriage.

    Yeah. You should go marry a normal chick who’s over 27. Sounds like a good plan.

  72. @ Dawson

    And I am curious that when you were seeing the women you described if you were honest with her about sleeping with other women while seeing her? It would seem odd to me that she would be ok with that but not ok sleeping with you when she met someone else. And to be fair you had sex with her a bunch of times before you shared any of it…given you had sex from the get go and didn’t tell her for a week.

    You make an interesting point. When we met, she initiated sex first. Being a bloke, I got lost in the “this woman is so into me for me” Disney. Then an alarm bell went off and I realised that she was after a provider. The second I realised this, we had the talk.

    I only had sex with one other woman during all this and she was “okay” with it – just didn’t want to hear about it, which is just fine.

    I suspected that she was having sex with other men. Then she admitted she was, but just with one. When I wasn’t jealous, she couldn’t quite figure it.

    Looking back, knowing that she wants a provider, I figure she wants to demonstrate monogamy to this new man in order to try to keep him. But now she is hovering near me again. Truth is, she knows what she wants (lots of sex with a few men) but societal programming is barring her way to having it. “Daddy wouldn’t approve.”

  73. Honestly, if I had more time and I thought there was a big enough market, I would start another business teaching women about Alpha Female 2.0.

    I would be a customer for sure. 😀 Though I do wonder, with more reliable egg freezing than a few years back, whether the market for such a thing will expand. (Especially when the hefty price tag drops.)

    I’ve tried various things…dating super nice loving guys, marriage, open relationship, dating dominating Alpha 1.0s, NSA friends with benefits arrangements…nothing is a perfect solution.

    Dang…so I have a real challenge in the future. Well however successfully I have relationships in the future, I will need to avoid procreating/adopting children until I am at least 45 then (even if my hormones get very angry). No need to screw over any potential innocent life if my outdated biological wiring won’t play ball.

    If I could find one who was both, I’d be a happy camper. I mean, I’m all of those things so it’s not like it’s impossible to embody both.

    The closest I knew who was 85% of the way there was an Alpha 1.0 who flat out admitted he wanted to eventually, if he was successful enough, have several high quality live in girlfriends loyal only to him. This was after I asked to convert from a one sided open relationship to two. Wah.

    Also, I’d max out your sex appeal while you’re young and capitalize on it if you can, then make sure you invest in developing marketable skills that will make you good money long term, so you have as many options as possible.

    Yes ma’am!

    Also, try not to let yourself engage in behaviors that encourage your boyfriends to become your supplicants.

    Sadly something I need to work on. I’m putting that in my personal code (that Blackdragon talks about making). Hopefully I won’t make too many slip ups on that one.

    You are awesome Kryptokate! Thanks for replying to me. I’d definitely be re-reading what you said the next couple days until it’s completely sunk in my brain so that I can more clearly visualize planning my life/goals. 😀

    Also sadly yes women do very much like providers, a pattern that overlaps of desiring serial monogamy. The results are very sad. 🙁 Which like Kryptokate said is why money is a good thing for women to make.

  74. Thanks for your honesty Kryptokate. I actually have a f. buddy who parallels you in  a lot of ways, although she doesn’t have to fake monogamy because we are in a very liberal part of the country. She has multiple f. buddies but has pretty much sworn off romance in her life. She is an accomplished, intelligent adult.

    I think you are being very honest and sincere in your answers to blackdragon’s questions, but I also get the sense that you are detaching from your feelings somehow. The only time I have had major guilt in my life is when I haven’t been true to my heart or haven’t been completely honest or a little of both.

    A few weeks ago my f. buddy told me that the reason she hasn’t let herself love a boyfriend for 15 years now is that her boyfriend of 15 years ago was cheating on her with her sister. I myself have come to the conclusion that forever monogamy doesn’t work but I also recognize that one of the best parts of life is falling in love and that opening up one’s heart is what makes us the best humans we can be.

  75. @Al
    Another question. If you aren’t wanting to be monogamous why would you ask a woman if she is sleeping with someone else? It is good that you didn’t act jealous when she told you she was sleeping with another guy but just asking the question seems to DLV in my mind. Zero upside as I see it.

  76. @ Dawson

    @Al
    Another question. If you aren’t wanting to be monogamous why would you ask a woman if she is sleeping with someone else? It is good that you didn’t act jealous when she told you she was sleeping with another guy but just asking the question seems to DLV in my mind. Zero upside as I see it.

    We’d better not get too off topic. I didn’t ask her, she told me. Anyway, it’s all part of a learning curve and this whole post has been very educational. I make no claims to be fully Alpha 2 but I’m working on it.

  77. @BD

    Let me see if I get your points straight (BTW I agree with all of them):

    1) women eventually get bored and unwilling to have sex with their partners in a monogamous relationship (does not matter how long it takes, usually happens at the 03 year mark);

    2) guys cheat for a number of reasons, but one of them is because after some time their wives get sexually bored and they are not getting laid at home;

    3) honest women will dump their husbands once they realize they are soooo bored and desperately need to have sex with another man. This can only be delayed or avoided because of: kids, tight societies, social shame or if the woman is provided for;

    4) not so honest women, especially independents with a high sex drive, will attract new men into their lives knowing that they will eventually become sexually bored and dump them. Even so they think it’s less cruel to let them fall for them and not tell the truth right from the start;

    5) it does not matter if a woman provides for herself, is she’s a serial monogamist she’ll follow the pattern described on item number 04;

    6) when serial monogamists are interested in a new guy and don’t want to loose him, they will be deceptive as hell and lie to themselves as not to feel guilted after shit hits the fan (which we know eventually will);

    7) categorazing is way better than screening and lead to greater results;

     

  78. 1) women eventually get bored and unwilling to have sex with their partners in a monogamous relationship (does not matter how long it takes, usually happens at the 03 year mark);

    Correct. And scientifically proven about a billion times over.

    2) guys cheat for a number of reasons, but one of them is because after some time their wives get sexually bored and they are not getting laid at home;

    Correct.

    I think the majority of men cheat because they are hard-wired for sexual variety. But many married dudes cheat because their wives aren’t putting out.

    3) honest women will dump their husbands once they realize they are soooo bored and desperately need to have sex with another man. This can only be delayed or avoided because of: kids, tight societies, social shame or if the woman is provided for;

    Correct.

    4) not so honest women, especially independents with a high sex drive, will attract new men into their lives knowing that they will eventually become sexually bored and dump them. Even so they think it’s less cruel to let them fall for them and not tell the truth right from the start;

    Correct.

    Many women on PUA forums over the years have stated that it’s more “honest” or “real” or “noble” or “nice” to repeatedly dump men and break their hearts rather than to cheat on them.

    The reality is both are bad. They should either be up-front and honest, or just be nonmonogamous (as difficult as that is for some women) and avoid all the bullshit.

    5) it does not matter if a woman provides for herself, is she’s a serial monogamist she’ll follow the pattern described on item number 04;

    Not exactly. All women have the biology to get sexually bored with a co-habiting male partner. There is a small percentage that stay horny for him forever; they are the exception to the rule, and there’s no way to determine if she’s in this category when you marry her.

    There are other factors at play, such as:

    A. How hot she is. (Hotter = more likely to cheat on you or dump your ass)

    B. How well she provides for herself (More financially independent = more likely to cheat on you or dump your ass).

    C. Her sex drive (Higher sex drive = more likely to cheat on you, but not necessarily more likely to dump you.)

    Etc, there are a few others.

    So her ability to provide for herself is a factor, but not the deciding factor. That would be biology, as well as many other factors. To say that her self-providership is the only factor would be just as inaccurate as saying biology is the only factor. There are many more strong factors at play.

    But again, the reason isn’t super relevant. All women do this (barring the very rare exception you can’t screen for or detect), and to assume that your woman won’t is stupid.

    6) when serial monogamists are interested in a new guy and don’t want to loose him, they will be deceptive as hell and lie to themselves as not to feel guilted after shit hits the fan (which we know eventually will);

    They won’t lie to themselves; they’ll lie to HIM.

    As you can see from Kate’s answers in the post, she clearly knows what she’s doing. I think most women over the age of about 24 know what they are and exactly what they’re doing when they do the serial monogamy thing.

    7) categorazing is way better than screening and lead to greater results;

    That leads into a much different conversation, but the simple answer is that if your goal is long-term freedom and low-drama, then yes. If you care about your future happiness several years down the road (and many men don’t), then screen away and suffer the consequences.

  79. Do you have any viable data backing this statement? 

    Mountains. Start here.

     

    OK, I read all the thing, and I have to say you really have your data together. So based on your stats only 13% of people is able to by satisfied in monogamous relationship. Fair enough.

    The one thing I have problem with is describing those 13% as usually boring, low drive people who do not live interesting lives, and generally are worse than the rest (and YOU – reader – aren´t like them, are you?!!!)

    Here you are overstepping from your statistically objectified position into pretentiousness and/or manipulative rhetoric (see last two pages of the pdf). Those last paragraphs are far away from rational argumentation in the land of demagogy.

    All four happy monogamous couples mentioned by me are quite the opposite of such description:

    One guy with his gf is successful online entrepreneur, who does crossfit with his gf of 7 years, and travels a lot.

    Other is top Czech psychologist and performance coach for managers and businessmen (happily married for 12 years).

    Next one is private stockmarket investor who also works with youth in personal-development non-profit org (married with two kids for 16 years).

    Fourth is psychologist – consultant for special army units, doing tai-chi, meditations and several martial arts (married with one kid for almost 20 years).

    Also this monogamous manosphere guy seems kinda cool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTuS4XDBjV8

    Yeah yeah yeah, I know, sample of four sucks, but still…four longterm monogamous couples (I am almost 100% sure that there was no cheating here)…none of them sounds like the description you provided abt those 13 shitty %

    But again, generally I agree with your opinions and admire the work you put into the research, I just still think that we need a big grain of salt here, when it comes to such extreme conclusions 🙂

     

     

     

     

  80. Comment deleted. The topics of free will, determinism, and nihilism are now officially off-topic for this blog. Please refer to this post for more information.

    Oh, and by the way, you’re banned. Thanks for playing.

  81. So based on your stats only 13% of people is able to by satisfied in monogamous relationship. Fair enough.

    No, that is not my contention. 100% of people are satisfied by monogamy while it works. When someone experiences drama, cheats, breaks up, or gets divorced, then they don’t like it.

    Only 13% of the population (or so, that’s not an exact figure) are able to get monogamous, stay monogamous 60+ years, never cheat in any way that entire time, never have their partner cheat in any way that entire time, and have the relationship still be a very good one that entire time. I stand by that figure, and if you find any data that conflicts with it, let me know and I’ll take a look. (I won’t be holding my breath, since divorce rates have gotten worse since I wrote that document several years ago.)

    Regarding your examples, the odds of all eight of those people having never cheated EVER during their marriages are extremely, ridiculously, horrendously low. Particularly if they’re Europeans, since cheating is more accepted in Europe than in the US.

    If there was a way to hook all eight of those people to a lie detector while injected with sodium pentothal, and then ask them under oath if they’ve EVER cheated on their spouses during the marriage, I’d bet you $5,000 at least one of them would say yes, likely more than one.

    Moreover, if you read that link that you apparently ignored, you would see that you can’t call a monogamous marriage “successful” until the spouses are at least 75 years old and still married (and happy, and never having cheated). None of your examples have reached that point yet.

  82. @ NamelessOne

    All four happy monogamous couples mentioned by me are quite the opposite of such description:

    One guy with his gf is successful online entrepreneur, who does crossfit with his gf of 7 years, and travels a lot.

    Other is top Czech psychologist and performance coach for managers and businessmen (happily married for 12 years).

    Next one is private stockmarket investor who also works with youth in personal-development non-profit org (married with two kids for 16 years).

    Fourth is psychologist – consultant for special army units, doing tai-chi, meditations and several martial arts (married with one kid for almost 20 years).

    Apart from the fact that some of the above will have cheated already, in a few more years, 3 out of the 4 above will have separated.

  83. I just can’t believe Krypto’s answer to question #6. Not ONE SINGLE guy was open to an open relationship? I find this very very hard to believe.

    In my experience if the male projects he’s nonmonogomus to an intelligent female like Krypto she will simply assumes he’s not serious because of her massive ‘man eating’ ego. She’ll dump him either because she doesn’t believe him, or her ego can’t handle that he’s sleeping with other women.

    Thank you Krypto for answering the questions and contributing! Very cool of you!

     

  84. Moreover, if you read that link that you apparently ignored, you would see that you can’t call a monogamous marriage “successful” until the spouses are at least 75 years old and still married (and happy, and never having cheated). None of your examples have reached that point yet.

    I really did read it,  I just forgot about this criteria…point for you.

     

    I stand by that figure, and if you find any data that conflicts with it, let me know and I’ll take a look. (I won’t be holding my breath, since divorce rates have gotten worse since I wrote that document several years ago.)

    It´s not the figure I am argumenting against here, I am perfectly fine admitting you are right (seems strange when someone in online discussion is opposing you and then actually gives you credit?).

    Let me repeat myself, maybe I wasn´t clear enough (english is not my native language): the problem I have with your argumentation is, that you claim those 13% of population are boring etc. etc. and you use no facts to prove this particular point, you only use manipulative language (dragging reader to your side but asking him if he is boring) to strengthen this particular point. For me, in those last pretentious paragraphs you lose decent portion of credibility you gained with other parts of the pdf.

    As for my example couples I admit, I don´t know anyone who would be 75y old and can claim they are are happy and positively never cheated, but I am too young to have many 75y olds in my social circle. And yes, I admit, that those people could be statistically rare (but so are people who are generally happy with their lives…human brain did not evolve to be happy)

  85. the problem I have with your argumentation is, that you claim those 13% of population are boring etc. etc

    I said that most (probably not all) of that 13% are more boring, low sex drive people who marry other boring, low sex drive people. Boring, low sex drive people do indeed have less-bad odds of making lifetime monogamy work. There are no hard stats on this I can quote, but it does match a few psychological studies I have read (quite a while ago; Psychology Today magazine) and does match my anecdotal experience.

    But if you really want to believe that dynamic, exciting, high sex drive people are better equipped to stay sexually monogamous to one person for 45 years straight, you’re welcome to that belief, and I’m welcome to think you’re crazy.

    It´s not the figure I am argumenting against here, I am perfectly fine admitting you are right 

    Thank you!

  86. But if you really want to believe that dynamic, exciting, high sex drive people are better equipped to stay sexually monogamous to one person for 45 years straight, you’re welcome to that belief, and I’m welcome to think you’re crazy.

    Hmm, nope, you won’t catch me on this one, but nice try (I see you can use some of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies )

    Old tale of black and white opposites, good and bad, boring monogamous and exciting non-monogamous people or faithful monogamous and vicious non-monogamous people…this BS is all part of SP you yourself are trying to fight against, and here you are creating your new SP.

    I do not believe that people who are happy in monogamy have this quality or another. I just say, you do not provide any facts that support giving those people adjectives like boring etc. I only say that there is no proven correlation between being monogamous and being boring or otherwise bad in comparison to those who are not. I say that this comes down to sexual preference (yes, having one lifelong mate IS sexual preference for those 13%) and until scientifically proven otherwise, you cannot objectively say that predetermines other personality traits or qualities.
    It’s similar to saying that gay people are more boring and dynamic or unsuccessful or whatever than straight people…which simply is not true.

    And referring to pop-science magazines like Psychology Today is very dangerous for you, as they are filled with advice from top therapists on how to live in monogamous relationships, just see yourself: https://www.psychologytoday.com/topics/relationships

  87. Many women on PUA forums over the years have stated that it’s more “honest” or “real” or “noble” or “nice” to repeatedly dump men and break their hearts rather than to cheat on them.
    The reality is both are bad. They should either be up-front and honest, or just be nonmonogamous (as difficult as that is for some women) and avoid all the bullshit.

    This is just sad. They break those poor bastards hearts and after that feel guilted as hell (as our very own Krypto admitted). Loose-loose situation which could be easily avoided.
    Look, I get the part where super-horny women are afraid to come out and just be themselves (slut-shamers, societal programming, fear of being an outcast, etc). What I do not get is the lying. Being up-front with your partner is way better and can save yourself tons of drama and hate down the road.

    All women have the biology to get sexually bored with a co-habiting male partner. There is a small percentage that stay horny for him forever; they are the exception to the rule, and there’s no way to determine if she’s in this category when you marry her.
    There are other factors at play, such as:
    A. How hot she is. (Hotter = more likely to cheat on you or dump your ass)
    B. How well she provides for herself (More financially independent = more likely to cheat on you or dump your ass).
    C. Her sex drive (Higher sex drive = more likely to cheat on you, but not necessarily more likely to dump you.)
    Etc, there are a few others.

    This is why co-habitation is not on top of my priorities list ;). Also I hope you guys are paying attention, especially next time you’re full of NRE dating that super-hot 20 something and seeking a long-term relationship with her.

    That leads into a much different conversation, but the simple answer is that if your goal is long-term freedom and low-drama, then yes.

    Thanks and I hope you go back to this subject on a future post.

  88. I do not believe that people who are happy in monogamy have this quality or another.

    So you believe it’s totally random. Okay, I think that’s crazy but we’ll agree to disagree then.

    I say that this comes down to sexual preference (yes, having one lifelong mate IS sexual preference for those 13%)

    Nope. A person can have a sexual preference for a lifelong monogamous mate, and that mate, who he/she cannot completely control, can still, and likely will, eventually cheat on him/her or divorce him/her.

    And again, wanting a lifetime mate is fine. I want that too. Wanting a lifetime mate who NEVER cheats on you while you NEVER cheat on them is where things get extremely unlikely, no matter how good you are. Lifetime pair bonding, yes. Lifetime sexual monogamy, no. One does not require the other.

    It would be nice if “wanting it made it so,” but that’s not how the world works.

    Again, I’ll agree to disagree. We’re getting nowhere here, and you agree with the stats I presented anyway; that’s the important thing.

    Being up-front with your partner is way better and can save yourself tons of drama and hate down the road.

    Correct. The problem for women, as Kate indicated, is that women fear A) hurting men’s feelings and B) drama backlash from the Alpha 1.0 types. So instead they just keep quiet and maintain the lie.

    Thanks and I hope you go back to this subject on a future post.

    I pretty much already did here.

  89. So you believe it’s totally random.

    No, I believe that you provided zero facts which would say that it isn’t and instead used fallacies of logic to manipulate readers 🙂

     

    Again, I’ll agree to disagree.

    We can agree on that too.

    A person can have a sexual preference for a lifelong monogamous mate, and that mate, who he/she cannot completely control, can still, and likely will, eventually cheat on him/her or divorce him/her.

    OK, what if there is a person who simply doesn’t want to have sex with more people at the same time, and only want to have sex with the person who is in monogamous relationship with. Isn’t that sexual preference? And yes, I know it is unlikely for such two 13% people to meet, but I want to know if this is something else than sexual preference in your opinion.
     

  90. BD,

    So all your OLTRs are less than 3 years old because by your premise all women get bored after that mark or are you saying if they fuck other men in that within that time frame they never hit that boredom treshold

  91. No, I believe that you provided zero facts which would say that it isn’t and instead used fallacies of logic to manipulate readers :)

    1. I provided you a 36 page document full of facts and stats to back up my assertions.

    2. You read it and agreed with all of it except for the last 2 paragraphs.

    3. In your irrational defensiveness to find something, anything wrong with my assertions, because you love the idea of long-term monogamy so much, you accuse me of manipulating readers while you provide zero facts or stats to back up your assertions.

    For the last time, if you would like to provide facts, stats, or third-party observations that indicate that high sex drive, exciting people have high odds of being sexually monogamous to one partner for 45+ years straight, with zero cheating and zero breakups by either partner, please let me know and I’m happy to take a look at it (again, I won’t be holding my breath). But if all you have is your personal frustration and attacks, then I win.

    OK, what if there is a person who simply doesn’t want to have sex with more people at the same time, and only want to have sex with the person who is in monogamous relationship with. Isn’t that sexual preference?

    Yes. That is a preference.

    What you’re not admitting is that this almost always a temporary preference. If you get married and monogamous, as a human being, particularly as a male, you will eventually want to fuck someone else, even if you still love your wife and don’t want to leave her. It might take many years, but it will happen. Your preference will then change. It’s human nature; human beings are pair-bonding creatures, but we are not long-term sexually monogamous creatures. We were never designed for such a thing.

  92. So all your OLTRs are less than 3 years old because by your premise all women get bored after that mark or are you saying if they fuck other men in that within that time frame they never hit that boredom treshold

    The boredom threshold is increased well beyond 3 years. I don’t know exactly how long, because there is no data on long-term nonmonogmaous relationships.

    Two things reduce the time-to-female-sexual-boredom:

    1. Monogamy

    2. Cohabiting full-time with each other

    The fastest way to get a woman sexually bored with you is to promise her absolute monogamy and move in with her. If you avoid both of those things, and her boredom threshold shoots way, WAY past three years. I can’t say it’s “forever,” but I can say it’s way past 3 years.

    As one example, my last OLTR lasted 5.5 years, and we were still having sex just as often and just as excitedly at 5.5 years as we were the first 2 months. But we didn’t live together full time and we were not monogamous.

     

  93. BD,

    So even an open marriage is doomed to failure based on your premise as the woman will get bored with you once she hits the treshold and will perpetually seek NRE with different men forever and you are left with a woman who just raises your kids and provide financial support if you work and no sexual desire for you on her part?

    You reaslize how bleak your assertion sounds right? If a man wants to raise kids in a family unit it can only be done understanding your wife will loose sexual desire for you after 3 years even if the marrisage is open

  94. So even an open marriage is doomed to failure based on your premise as the woman will get bored with you once she hits the treshold

    Yes. As I’ve said a million times: ALL RELATIONSHIPS ARE TEMPORARY (unless you’re talking about people over age 60).

    and will perpetually seek NRE with different men forever

    Not forever, just until her 50s. And not all women, but most.

    and you are left with a woman who just raises your kids and provide financial support if you work and no sexual desire for you on her part?

    That’s most monogamous marriages, not open ones.

    You reaslize how bleak your assertion sounds right?

    That’s not my assertion, just like 2+2=4 isn’t my “assertion.” I’m quoting statistical and biological fact. Most women eventually get bored with a co-habiting male partner. It’s fact. I don’t like it, but those are the facts. Just because you or I don’t like something doesn’t make it untrue.

     If a man wants to raise kids in a family unit it can only be done understanding your wife will loose sexual desire for you after 3 years even if the marrisage is open

    No, if the marriage is open it will be much longer than three years. But yes, the odds are decently high that at some point she will get sexually bored with you at some point. Just keep the marriage open and discreetly fuck hot chicks on the side when this happens. It’s not a big deal if you structure things correctly from the outset.

    Move in with her if you want. Have children if you want. Those things are fine. But you shouldn’t legally marry a woman (without an enforceable prenup at least), never get monogamous (pair-bond yes, monogamous no), and never assume that any relationship will last “the rest of your life” unless you and her are already old (as in over age 60).

  95. BR,

    I always instincively knew what you have always stated on this blog about the sexual nature of women but refused to believe it. Hearing a woman confirm it was a fucking bitter pill to swallow. A man’s ego truly is our greatest weakness. The final piece on my understanding of women’s nature just clicked into place with this article and its saddens me deeply. We’re biologically designed simply to replicate as efficiently as possible while chasing ghosts that don’t exist.

    Now I know why you structured the systems you have for dating and relationships the way you do. and explains how you can override the desire men have to fence in our partners sexually.

  96. @ Themaster

    The final piece on my understanding of women’s nature just clicked into place with this article and its saddens me deeply.

    A bit of a bastard when the penny finally drops isn’t it. However, the more it sinks in, that knowledge becomes extremely liberating.

  97. @BD

    OK let’s talk statistics. You make the claim that you can back up your statements that a higher percentage of women cheat simply because they are sexually bored whereas a lower percentage of men cheat simply because they are sexually bored. I have looked through your “mountain” of evidence and do not see the data to back this up.

    But let’s look at what the data does show:

    – Men cheat at a higher rate than women (indicates they get sexually bored more easily)
    – Men cheat more frequently and with more partners than women that also cheat (indicates they get sexually bored sooner)
    – Men cheat more quickly in a relationship than women do (indicates they get sexually bored sooner)
    – When men cheat it is often just for sex (one-night stand, prostitutes, short-term fling) where as with women it is generally more emotional in nature and results in a new relationship or a longer, ongoing affair.

    Yet in the face of all of these facts you maintain it is WOMEN that get sexually bored sooner than men do and you make the unsubstantiated claim (as best I can tell) that while all of the above are proven facts that a normal person would take as solid evidence if not outright proof that MEN get sexually bored first and you flip it around to say the exact opposite because men cheat for other reasons than sexual boredom (even though it is WOMEN that cheat for other reasons at a much higher rate). 

    Next you hold up Kate (the outlier of outliers) as proof of what women are like and how they will nearly all get sexually bored. Even though you admit (as does Kate) that being provided for is a women’s main driver in a relationship for most women (again Kate NOT being like that even though you held her up as the poster child for female sexual boredom in relationships).

    But wait, there’s more. Here is an interesting statistic that I think further backs up my claims. According to the General Social Survey 54% of men who had cheated said that before the affair, they thought their marriage wasn’t bad — or was even good. Just 34% of women who had cheated felt the same. If the reason men are cheating is because their wives aren’t willing to have sex with them (because they are sexually bored) wouldn’t the men probably not rate their marriage nearly 60% higher than women do?

    When they are surveyed, women indicated their main driver in having an affair was to fill an emotional void versus a sexual one (the OPPOSITE of sexual boredom) and is backed up by the fact that her affair is much more likely to lead to a relationship. Men surveyed indicated wanting more variety and excitement (the DEFINITION of sexual boredom) and is backed up by the fact that his affair is much less likely to lead to relationship. 

    I am simply baffled as to why you and others on here are talking about female sexual boredom as something to be wary of when it is the exact opposite. Shit I thought one of your main points was never be monogamous because it is boring for MEN.

  98. It’s fact. I don’t like it, but those are the facts. Just because you or I don’t like something doesn’t make it untrue.

    Very very very true. And red pill is the only medicine, for better or worse. But, at the same time, it doesn’t sound so bad to spend most of your life having tons of sex untill you find somenone nice to start an OLTR (even if you know it’s something temporary). In that case temporary can mean a lot of years, so I’m fine with it.

    Correct. The problem for women, as Kate indicated, is that women fear A) hurting men’s feelings and B) drama backlash from the Alpha 1.0 types. So instead they just keep quiet and maintain the lie.

    I might add that most women also fear to be nexted, especially if they like the dude. So yes, they keep the lie. Eventually later they’ll have to (feel free to pick one): next the guy in a very cruel fashion, face way larger doses of guy-drama or be nexted by someone they’re still emotionally attached too. Cool.

  99. One of the most enlightening contributions. Thanks as always, BD. Today I read a piece on CNBC which corroborates all the points made here and in many of your previous posts. The source is not altogether surprising – Ashley Madison CEO:

     

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/102715169

     

  100. @It Began In Africa

    Except if you ACTUALLY unwrap the real data instead of just looking for data to support the conclusion you have already come to you see a very different story.

    On Ashley Madison men still out number women nearly 2:1 and 28% of those women are single. But even more telling is the educational demographics of those women. Nearly 75% of people on Ashley Madison have a college degree versus 32% in the general population. Like with Kate, when people are financially independent (which college educated women are much more likely to be) they are much more likely to be unfaithful. It isn’t primarily about gender but about money.

    And all of this dodges the actual point I was refuting in the first place. Even if women cheated at the same percentage as men do (which they don’t) and even if women cheated sooner than men do (which they don’t) and even if women cheated as many times as men do (which they don’t) the whole point of the BD’s post was trying to drive home the point that women become SEXUALLY BORED sooner than men do.

    This is simply untrue. Women’s main reason in having an affair is to fill an emotional void and not out of sexual boredom. Men’s main reason is wanting more variety and excitement (aka sexual boredom).

    So IF someone wants to defend this position and quote sources or statistics you have to actually find one that has data on SEXUAL BOREDOM and NOT infidelity.

  101. Dawson, I don’t understand this bizarre emotional need you have to constantly fill up my comment threads by repeating yourself over and over again, but it ends here. You’ve stated your point about six times in this thread. Dude. Once is plenty. Moreover, I’ve clearly responded to your point at least three times here, and here you are still repeating yourself, now to other commenters.

    From now on, if you wish to comment here, please behave like the other commenters. That means:

    1. State your point one time. Just once.

    2. Read responses to your point, if any.

    3. Respond to those responses if you like, meaning if you have anything NEW to add, then state it, but it better be new. If you don’t have anything new to add, then stop commenting and exit the thread, and let the readers make up their own minds.

    Every other commenter here does this. I’m not sure why you can’t. Angrily repeating yourself over and over again clutters up the thread and serves no one.

    I’ve warned you before about this incessant need you have to argue-just-to-argue. I’ve been very, very patient with you. This is your last warning. If you do this argue-just-to-argue thing again, or this repeat-forever thing again, you’ll be banned.

    Thanks in advance.

  102. @ Dawson. Everyone knows that men seek sexual variety and cheat…that is reinforced over and over and over by articles, movies, advertising, conventional wisdom, etc. It’s something people expect (and that women expect to have to guard against). The problem is that that notion is NOT reflected for women in the vast majority of media. There are exceptions like the movie Unfaithful, but the cultural message is generally that women are fundamentally monogamous and absent some pathology or childhood issue, will not cheat on a good man in an otherwise good relationship. And that is patently false.

    Clearly you have more than ample experience with women and therefore the reality is all old hat to you and probably seems self evident. But don’t forget that for a lot of people, particularly if they have less extensive experience with the opposite sex, this is not at all the case and they absolutely believe the cultural narrative reflected back at them by media. I know many, many otherwise intelligent and knowledgeable men who are completely naive about this. Who will make up or believe ANY excuse for a woman who cheats, other than the real reason which is bc the sex was way hotter and more exciting. So that’s what BD (and I) are arguing against here: a cultural narrative that is simply false. But the narrative about men is much closer to reality. Given that men controlled all of advertising, media, and Hollywood up until very, very recently, and women are still breaking into roles as directors and decision makers, this is not surprising. And when women have some control over the content of media, you start to see a lot more stories showing the truth about the speedier and less virtuous side of female nature. But that’s a different topic. The point is, there’s no reason to write an article about this topic with regard to men bc everyone already knows the truth (excepting some highly religious people but arguably they hold many beliefs that are discordant with reality).

    Even the clear relationship between economic need and dependency versus faithfulness, which you’ve pointed out, is not something that would occur to most people. Bc most people believe that women are naturally faithful to a good man, not the darker reality that most people, including women, are only as faithful, once outside the NRE zone, as their options (taking into account opportunity costs, costs of discovery or exiting, quality of options, etc).

    FWIW, I do not believe for a second that women cheat for “emotional reasons”, or at least not the type of emotions that most men understand when they read that. Lust and sexual passion can be interpreted as either an emotion or a drive…in reality it is both. It’s a drive accompanied by strong subjective pleasurable and addiction like feelings. Women and men both cheat for lust, women just describe that as an “emotional reason” bc they’ve been taught that’s the culturally acceptable reason, while men are taught to recognize it for what it is (though plenty of men confuse lust with love too). I don’t think the “reason” for cheating is any different for anyone…it’s bc the new person is way more sexually exciting and makes you feel “alive” in a way your long term partner cannot. Also, I think women are more likely to claim their existing relationship was not good simply bc women are by nature serial monogamous or close to it, while men are by nature harem builders. I don’t think it’s really a reflection of the objective quality of the existing relationship but rather the fact that women feel an innate drive to move on while men feel a drive to collect women.

  103. @Kryptokate

    I actually agree with much of what you say above. I am not saying for a second that women only cheat for emotional reasons. And I would further agree that women have HUGE societal programming effects of not wanting to be seen as a slut. By saying “she had feelings for him” it somehow makes it at least a bit more acceptable that a woman cheated. Movies like Unfaithful are a cautionary tale for women much like Fatal Attraction is for men.

    But there have been numerous scientific studies done that make it clear that a women’s PRIMARY driver is to be able to be provided for…both her and her offspring. The reason a woman won’t cheat if she is a stay-at-home-mom isn’t because she has no desire to but because it puts her lifestyle at risk. Interestingly the greater the income disparity between the husband and wife where the man makes more the MORE likely he is to cheat and the LESS likely she is to cheat.

    However, in the few relationships where the women is the primary earner the man is 500% MORE likely to be unfaithful. Sex is a way for a man to validate himself. And I am generalizing here, but for women, having children is how they validate themselves.

    There is almost a perfect correlation between women’s financial independence and her likelihood of being unfaithful.

    The one point where I do totally disagree with you is characterizing a woman’s lust as anywhere near a man’s. As I understand it, you yourself are a serial monogamist. Even though you could have a buffet of men you choose only one at a time. This is a fundamental difference. Are you not saying that you have had an emotional connection with the men you have been serially monogamous with? I would argue your desire to see a man for a while and not just for sex means that an emotional connection is of some value to you…though certainly not the primary driver for you.

    This is simply not necessary for many men. An emotional connection with a woman can be great but it is not at all necessary for many men. You are hard pressed to find women who feel this way.

    And while in general I do agree that people’s options are a significant factor in how faithful they are, this is less true of women than of men in my experience. One specific couple comes to mind but I have known quite a few that fit this general mold. They were both 40 years old and married for 15 years. No kids. They were both insanely attractive. Both 9s with near perfect bodies to rival a super hot 20 year old. The wife wanted to stayed married and I am about as certain as I can be without actual certainty that the wife never cheated. And let me tell you she got hit on 24/7/365. The husband cheated on her all the time. She was in denial about it. He eventually forced the divorce and went on to fuck an epic number of women. Within a year she married a guy worth over $100 million.

  104. http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/lifestyle/06/05/15/female-viagra-gets-green-light-us-expert-panel

    Lol, look at the quotes from women who took part in the clinical trial.

    “I am one of the lucky 11,000 women that was a patient on the flibanserin clinical trial,” said Amanda Parrish, who said she lost desire for sex with her husband, and their marriage had suffered.”

    Now I wonder if this would be necessary if they were meeting new men and were not sexually bored of their husbands….? LOL

  105. The reason a woman won’t cheat if she is a stay-at-home-mom isn’t because she has no desire to but because it puts her lifestyle at risk.

    The exact opposite is true. If she provides for herself, she will be like Kate and just break up with dudes every six months. But if she’s dependent on you, she’s trapped, which means she has no choice but to cheat on you to get her needs met.

    Monogamy guys are funny. You have such purity fantasies about your old fashioned women. Your perfect virgin is probably having wild threesomes and paying for the hotel with your money.

  106. I have to smile. Because there is a special place reserved in hell just for women like this, for which they obviously aren’t aware.

  107. It eventually becomes too nauseating to continue having sex and pretending not to be disgusted.

    And then a little while after that and you will start to feel actively repulsed when he touches you or tries to kiss you and it will take a very strong force of will to not slap his hands away or snap at him out of visceral revulsion.

     

    As a male, I understand why someone might get bored and seek more variety in sex. Is there any scientific (biological, psychological) reason as to why a woman might get repulsed by her sexual partner (assuming his behaviour and style has not changed much from the start of the relationship)?

    I myself have experienced feelings of boredom, lack of immediate sexual arousal over time with certain female partners, but this is the first time I am reading something as extreme as the above.

    Why would anyone be repulsed (male or female) to an extent that you want to slap your partner? If this is true for women in general, it is a remarkable fact and more men should become aware of it and understand its deep implications (for themselves and for our society at large)! I realize familiarity breeds contempt – but this is taking that proverb to an all new level!

  108. @wanderlust prince

    It’s just evolutionary biology. Mother natures way of ensuring a healthy gene pool. DNA diversity ensures that the species will more likely survive any attacks on the species. A less diverse gene pool means end of species. It’s just Darwinism at work. Species survival trumps everything else, including your happiness for the next 50 years.

    @Dawson Stone

    Man, why do you keep trying to argue the minutia? You keep posting the same thing over and over hoping that BD will agree with you. It’s not gonna happen unless you can pull studies showing exactly what you’re saying and you know that won’t happen because because people get bored and cheat for a variety of reasons. Why does it matter so much to you that you must be absolutely right?

    The most important thing is that women get bored or whatever and cheat or terminate the relationship. Either way the result is the same. Monogamous relationships are doomed. I have watch my friends get married, ecstatically happy and then the complaints start and get louder and louder. Then after a few years, some sooner, some later, the sex is down to once a month if they’re lucky. Clearly someone doesn’t want to have sex anymore and it is usually the woman. Are there exceptions? Sure but those are few and far in between. The fact is that monogamy is a really shitty decision for man. Marriage is even worse because you lose half. It’s not an if, it’s more like when.

    Who cares who’s right? It’s the conclusion that result that matter and what to do about it. You seem like you have some serious game. I’m wondering what happened to your website?

  109. This is so accurate I thought I was reading a subconscious journal entry. As a female in the same boat, what is the solution? BD says over and over that women will eventually give in to the man seeing other women (we’ve been doing this willingly or unwillingly for centuries), but how do I as a woman tell a guy I want an open relationship? The vast majority of men I have been in contact with are so dense and jealous that they refuse to hear of it. I personally used to think that if I just told the guy he could go fuck anyone else he wanted to (within certain common sense rules) that they would be drooling in delight…but they aren’t! Last year I lost a relationship with the first person I’ve ever been head over heels in love with and it was mentally and emotionally horrifying to watch my mind try to rationalize monogamy while the rest of me was begging for just 15 minutes with someone else. I talked about this with him for months and he even admitted that he wanted to sleep around, but he absolutely refused to try anything and became more possessive and jealous. I gave him permission to sleep around while I stayed “loyal” in hopes that he would consider that as a safe start; he refused to take me up on the offer and began trying to control/limit my interactions with other males. During this time I was completely upfront with him and never cheated on him. In the end he went from being what I considered an open-minded, intelligent person to a controlling, manipulative monster that took enormous amounts of energy to escape. This type of drama is unhealthy for all parties involved and I don’t see myself staying sane through another one which will happen again because I like being in relationships. To the males on this blog, what are the most favorable ways a woman could convince you to stop being so bloody clingy?

  110. @Mary

    I don’t think you understand the realities of the the sexual marketplace.

    First, biologically, men are much more concerned about their partner having sex with another man, since our paternity is never certain. This is why most men are at best Alpha 1.0.

    Second, unless a man has solid game (or even if he does!), any woman he is with can get other partners faster than a him.  Even women well outside their prime can have a “just sex” man on speed dial.  Men always have to work for it.

    So, if you want to have mutual non-monogamy, you have two choices:

    – choose a man so lame that he will accept whatever terms you demand

    – choose an Alpha 2.0 man who has the right mind-set (and options) to accept it

    There are WAY more men in category one than in category two, and you probably don’t have a lot of control over whether you appeal to category two or not, so I guess you can extrapolate my advice from that….

     

     

  111. My fiance was willing to have threesomes with me originally since she knows I don’t believe mono relationships work.  She is bi-curious/sexual a little.  I saw this as a trade off or negotiation kinda.

    After some drama about this issue and her saying that she won’t do them with me until we are married, I said OK and gave her the ring back and said let’s just have fun and date then.

    Now, she is still upset because she knows that I want this (or to be poly) and that I don’t want to marry her anymore (we can’t win lol).

    So, my question is – a) do any of you guys consider having threesomes a decent alternative to poly when the lady complains about me getting STDs and not knowing etc?

    I pretty much say this phrase very early in the dating process and let them do the work:

    “I will probably never get married again and don’t really believe mono relationships work long-term….but I guess the only exception to this is if you were bi-sexual and OK with doing threesomes maybe lol.”

    b) have any of you tried this approach and if so, what was results?

    I totally understand that it is not as drama free as BDs main Poly approach.  But what I am wondering is if it is a decent alternative to it?

    So far, this has worked fairly well in getting lots of threesome action and fun too.  But then they will start to do those women mind twists and telling people that I require her to have threesomes lol.  I’m like NO!  I never said that and only said IF you want to be exclusive with me, that is my requirement.

    It’s funny how chics will WANT to do things with you at first and then later on, say you made them do it or they felt pressure to do them LMBO.

    Besides, what kind of idiot would marry a woman in the “hopes” that she would then have threesomes with him??  She actually thinks this is a normal request too.  CRAZY!

     

     

     

  112. So, my question is – a) do any of you guys consider having threesomes a decent alternative to poly

    With my former monogamous gf I tried this threesome approach and she was saying yes but it was clear it would not happen anytime soon or very often. I also realised over time that 1) the fact I wanted that so much meant this mono thing wasnt working for me and 2) that I would want to spend time with some of these girls without her around. And what if theres a girl you really like and she likes you but your gf doesnt like her? Its way too restricting no matter how you look at it. I think of 3some as a nice bonus but not as a main source of sex diversity.

    Besides, what kind of idiot would marry a woman in the “hopes” that she would then have threesomes with him??  She actually thinks this is a normal request too.

    No. She hopes that you will forget about it by then. Or at the very best case its gonna be that you can have it if she feels like it. I dont know how it is for you but I honestly doubt this is what you are after, it sounds more like that you want to be able to have other women any time you want, which unless you go poly or cheat you will never have.

    The reason for poly is to avoid cheating and that you are free and can also keep your own woman free. I dont like to cheat and I want my women to be free then monogamy isnt an option, but yes, its not easy to convince them that its in their interest also.

    But the most important thing is to realise that there is always some downside to anything so you have to see what you are prepared to sacrifice and what is not acceptable for you.

  113. I said OK and gave her the ring back and said let’s just have fun and date then.

    By the way, I love the outcome independence here.

    Though its sometimes good to think of it from her point of view. If I was a typical woman with typical woman logic who had undergone typical woman brainwash I’d be quite hurt by this. I hope you did it in a nice way and that shes okay with it.

    Its our job to teach our women that the things theyve been told their whole lives dont really work (anymore) and are not in touch with reality and are in fact not good for them either. And that this not a bad thing because there is another way, they just have to get used to it and we are there to guide them.

  114. Absolutely! And it’s as if I single handedly have totally destroyed her world view and biblical view in the last 9 months.

    She is like spinning cuz she can’t control me.

    She knows deep down I don’t wanna be mono but am “trying”.

    She even broke up w me for 24 hours last week and then came back to me and stuck the ring back on my finger!

    I said, “no, I’m gonna need to think about this for a week because I have lots of work…”

    Then she wanted me to agree to not sleep w anyone else while I’m deciding to take her back or not lmao.

    So, I nicely gave ring back, said let’s just date until we can figure out all this BS but just know if you break up w me again, that you can’t ask me who, when and if I’m doing sexually while we are not exclusive and your gonna have to assume I did sleep w someone.

    She claimed her breakup should not have counted since she was “angry”. Lmao ?

    So, it’s nine months later and we are back to square 1 like a reset and she’s is analysing her entire world view. Hopefully, she doesn’t go crazy trying to figure me out.

    The BD method can drive ladies nuts cuz the outcome independent is so foriegn to them it throws them for a serious loop and they don’t know how to respond it’s so rare and contrarian.

  115. Oh I forgot this part….

    While in the limbo phase she tells me that her gf who is bisexual and her where going out Saturday night. And that she thinks she is gonna want to do something with her (since I won’t be present) and may want to date her exclusively.

    So she wanted to know before they went out if WE were exclusive or not so she knew what to do.

    (Because she knew I had plans too but we’re top secret lol)

    So, I tell her, “oh no that’s totally fine. Just go have fun and enjoy yourself and we can discuss this mono topic next week OK.”

    Her face went white and she said she just made it up to see my reaction and she couldn’t believe that I was OK w that.

    So, I said, “well you said you liked me because I was different than most men…”

    And walk out of room….

  116. Then she wanted me to agree to not sleep w anyone else while I’m deciding to take her back or not lmao.

    Haha, I dated a girl who asked if I could be monogamous for a couple of months. This is a typical trick they try. They think you will forget about it and realise how awesome she is and not want anyone else after this. What they dont understand is that it has nothing to do with them or how great they are.

    know if you break up w me again, that you can’t ask me who, when and if I’m doing sexually while we are not exclusive and your gonna have to assume I did sleep w someone.

    I dont think its necessary to say this so directly at this point and its actually detrimental. I prefer to say that it means I can have someone else but doesnt neccesarily mean that I do. And that I wont disclose what I do and with whom and whether I did it or not. (This I say to the women who clearly cant control their feelings, especially jealousy, to the ones who demonstrate they are totally cool with it I just tell them if they ask. If I chose not to answer her questions and she persists I explain I have decided not to answer these questions precisely because of her out of control emotions, but if she can demonstrate differently then I might reconsider.)

    She claimed her breakup should not have counted since she was “angry”. Lmao

    Yes this is a typical woman thing. They tell you all kinds of heavy shit and then say it doesnt count. Also often when a woman says she wants to break up she does not really want to do that, its often a test or an attempt to corner you and get you to agree to stuff. My monogamous ex did this exactly also she broke up with me but it was clear that she didnt really want to, I think she was hoping that I would agree to her demands, which I did not…

    Her face went white and she said she just made it up to see my reaction and she couldn’t believe that I was OK w that.

    Also typical. Sometimes people say they dont understand women or that women are complicated but after a few times you start to see patterns. Actually im starting to get bored with most women (at least pre lay), its always the same shit. I even get same sentences and responses from seemingly very different women. Any advice to make first dates more interesting (and still be going in the right direction)?

    The BD method can drive ladies nuts cuz the outcome independent is so foriegn to them it throws them for a serious loop and they don’t know how to respond it’s so rare and contrarian.

    But also gotta do it right, sometimes they think I just dont give a shit about them (which in some cases is kinda true, lol).

  117. Yeah I see same thing over and over dating as well. Especially the phrases:

    “I’m different than most women”

    “I’m special and unique so I’m not gonna settle THIS time”. (lol)

    “I know what I want and not going to settle”

    Snoor….

    It’s also kinda funny as well and reminds me of like a jerk version of Jerry Seinfeld.

    One time, I got slapped in public because I told her I would consider being “semi-exclusive” maybe LMBO ?

    Another time, the lady started to bring up shit about her ex’s. I stopped her mid sentence and said, “sorry but I can’t help but seeing my ex wife talk about me and lies she said about me so unless your ex’s are here to defend themselves, let’s hold off on that shit for now.”

    She looked speechless and like she didn’t have anything to talk about lol.

    And finally there was the hard core confused feminist that liked traditional values lmao.

    When the timing was right and I was ready to stop seeing her, I waited for her to open the door for me. It worked. She went off the rails. Bye bye….

    I think the key is to do stuff and be active so they shut up talking and it also prevents me from talking too much or saying shit when I should just keep my mouth shut.

    I literally handed one chic some duck tape one night while watching TV n bed….Geez…

  118. I know what I want

    This part used to make me laugh but its starting to annoy me. I always think to myself yeah sure you do, sure. Hard part is not to verbalise it to her too much.

    “semi-exclusive”

    What does that even mean? Maybe I should try that next time, I’d like to see how shed react. If I get smacked in public at least it makes my dates more interesting.

    literally handed one chic some duck tape one night while watching TV n bed….Geez…

    This reminds me of some women who just dont shut up. Like if all thats on my mind is getting into her pants/making out with her and she just keeps talking some random stuff about her childhood that I dont care about at all, at least not this early into dating.

    Or another time I was on a date that was pretty boring and the girl just talked most of the time about herself, then she said afterwards she really enjoyed it, but didnt want to date, but wanted to meet me again… well I thought to say to her that she can manage having good time on her own then since I didn’t say much anyway.

    The duct tape thing sounds good though. Some girls might even be into that stuff… 😉

    And finally there was the hard core confused feminist that liked traditional values lmao.

    Yes, this is very common. I dated such girl also. She wanted traditional relationship structure but didnt like traditional style courting, but wanted traditional style with waiting many dates for sex and monogamy and then one day have marriage and children 1950s style, but she was doing heavily serial monogamy. She was also feminist and she didnt like that I was not monogamous. Yes very confused. She wanted to break it off with me several times and I always like shrugged and said fine and she kept coming back. Then she said its my fault because she cannot leave me now because shes attached and that she has no choice. I love these sentences sometimes, couldnt make this stuff up.

    On that topic another typical line that I keep hearing is “I want something serious and long term.” as in traditional style monogamy. Then you see them few months later looking for a new boyfriend. And when you confront them about it they say oh yeah they were all not the right ones. Its so funny its sad, actually quite pathetic. But we have an alternative for them, just have to get good at explaining it to these confused women.

  119. Yeah I’ve thought about what could possibly fix our nation’s issues on dating and the main thing I come to is a financial collapse, depression etc is only thing that would work. Maybe a war fought on our land too.

    And as a result of this, the states would have to cut child support, alimony, welfare, etc or not cut it but there be so many people behind that it all becomes virtually impossible to enforce and back logged for 10 years.

    I guarantee you that will change a bunch of shit…

  120. I guarantee you that will change a bunch of shit…

    The present issues are mainly to do with confusion due to people not adapting / refusing to adapt to changes in society, and women not to knowing what to do with the freedom and choice they suddenly have. I think you are thinking if women have to be financially reliant on a man again it will change stuff, or if there is real crisis life will be more precious and people will do stuff more easily. That might be partly true but its never going to be like in the old days again.

  121. Also men becoming pussies is another reason.

    Here is yet another confused article written by a woman:

    https://pairedlife.com/dating/Why-Women-are-Frustrated-and-Confused-about-Men-and-Dating

    It mentions many of these things and gets many things right but at the same time many things wrong. Somehow the combination of right and wrong always makes me cringe more than if it was all just wrong. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what the real issues are.

    It still suprises me to this day that people think that 2 partners at once is gross/weird/immoral etc but having had tides of partners in the past is just fine. Or that the women think that after having had several “serious” relationships that didnt last that shes still suitable for traditional monogamous 1950s style relationship. Sorry, but the evidence is contrary.

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