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There were some very interesting comments on the blog post I made a while back about the new insulting age limits at Plenty of Fish. It's become one of the highest-viewed blog posts here in the last few months. Some very thought-provoking points were brought up that I just had to revisit.
-By Caleb Jones
Lovergirl said this:
What I find offensive is the men going around spouting this bullshit and acting like older women are so unattractive. I’ve really only encountered that online from these pua sites. In real life men seem to like us just fine.
GOB responded thusly:
Yes it’s true. Because something happens in the online world with men, and it’s called honesty. At a suburban garden party how many 40+ men will tell you, that they really like 20 yr old girls with hot bodies? Not their “pride and happy plus size” wives? And when a man wants to lay you, does he says that he’d rather fuck that 19 year old waitress, but he has a better chance with you? No, people in the real world tend to tell the same Disney bullshit while in reality they want something very different. Heck, with friends and coworkers I’m almost never talk about this open-relationship thing.
Sometimes I go to church with my family, and there is this smokin’ hot ~18 year old chick. If you stand in the right position, you can see all the dads with their “happy monogamy” just looking at this chick like they’ve never seen a woman before.
Jack also responded:
It’s not about women over 33 being less attractive. It’s about them being more prude. They want to use sex as a weapon against men by utilizing it as a bargaining chip in exchange for resources, money, and commitment, whereas the young girls just want to fuck and have a good time, which is exactly what the older men want. So by restricting older men from messaging the younger women, the older women think they are securing the market and forcing the men into the provider role by cutting them off from those so called “slutty traitors to the sisterhood.”
Then they tell themselves that they are secretly working in the younger girls’ best interests because the young ones don’t have the self esteem yet to set a price for their vaginas higher than the penis in exchange!
The Real Reason
Often when I talk about older women being more problematic during the dating/seduction phase, older women often leap to the utterly incorrect conclusion that the only reason I'm saying this is because I think older women are physically less attractive than younger women.
Never mind the fact that I have said repeatedly I date women well over age 30, and often well over age 40, and love every minute of it. (There's one in my life right now, I love her to death, and she's hot as hell.) Never mind the fact that the woman I consider the best-looking celebrity in the world is over age 40. Never mind the fact that I would very much enjoy being in an OLTR, or even an OLTR marriage with a woman over 30, and I've actually made accommodations for just such a likely future event. Never mind the fact I lost my virginity to a woman 18 years older than me, and exclusively dated much older women for the first 15 years of my adult life.
I think older women are super hot. I want to have sex with them and often do. Yet it's so easy to paint men like us as pigs who think older women are ugly and simply want younger women because they're better looking (which they often are not).
What I find offensive is the men going around spouting this bullshit and acting like older women are so unattractive. I’ve really only encountered that online from these pua sites. In real life men seem to like us just fine.
GOB responded thusly:
Yes it’s true. Because something happens in the online world with men, and it’s called honesty. At a suburban garden party how many 40+ men will tell you, that they really like 20 yr old girls with hot bodies? Not their “pride and happy plus size” wives? And when a man wants to lay you, does he says that he’d rather fuck that 19 year old waitress, but he has a better chance with you? No, people in the real world tend to tell the same Disney bullshit while in reality they want something very different. Heck, with friends and coworkers I’m almost never talk about this open-relationship thing.
Sometimes I go to church with my family, and there is this smokin’ hot ~18 year old chick. If you stand in the right position, you can see all the dads with their “happy monogamy” just looking at this chick like they’ve never seen a woman before.
Jack also responded:
It’s not about women over 33 being less attractive. It’s about them being more prude. They want to use sex as a weapon against men by utilizing it as a bargaining chip in exchange for resources, money, and commitment, whereas the young girls just want to fuck and have a good time, which is exactly what the older men want. So by restricting older men from messaging the younger women, the older women think they are securing the market and forcing the men into the provider role by cutting them off from those so called “slutty traitors to the sisterhood.”
Then they tell themselves that they are secretly working in the younger girls’ best interests because the young ones don’t have the self esteem yet to set a price for their vaginas higher than the penis in exchange!
The Real Reason
Often when I talk about older women being more problematic during the dating/seduction phase, older women often leap to the utterly incorrect conclusion that the only reason I'm saying this is because I think older women are physically less attractive than younger women.
Never mind the fact that I have said repeatedly I date women well over age 30, and often well over age 40, and love every minute of it. (There's one in my life right now, I love her to death, and she's hot as hell.) Never mind the fact that the woman I consider the best-looking celebrity in the world is over age 40. Never mind the fact that I would very much enjoy being in an OLTR, or even an OLTR marriage with a woman over 30, and I've actually made accommodations for just such a likely future event. Never mind the fact I lost my virginity to a woman 18 years older than me, and exclusively dated much older women for the first 15 years of my adult life.
I think older women are super hot. I want to have sex with them and often do. Yet it's so easy to paint men like us as pigs who think older women are ugly and simply want younger women because they're better looking (which they often are not).
The reality that many women don't want to hear is that women over age 33 tend to be more jaded, bitchy, and prude than women under 33. Even if they have higher sex drives and a more ravenous sexual desire than younger women, they tend to have many more rules about when it's "appropriate" for them to have sex. They will usually demand men jump through many more hoops to get to sex than women under 33.
When men point out that women under 33 don't usually do these things, these older women will imply strongly that younger women are stupid or sluts. It doesn't occur to these older women that very attitude is part of exactly what turns men off. It's all of THAT stuff that makes older women less attractive to strong, confident, high sex drive men. It has nothing whatsoever to do with how they look. Most older men consider older women extremely beautiful and sexy, myself included.
Being Honest About What You Want
To GOB's point, men over 30 in the real world are not going to say anything I just said. They don't want their wives or girlfriends to yell at them. They don't want to be called pigs. They don't want to screw up their chances with the woman they're currently working on. They want nods of approval from all the other women over 33 they know and work with.
Like most domesticated, pussified, betaized men in modern society, they just shut the fuck up and remain in line like good little boys who obey the will of the feminized, politically correct collective. This makes the problem I described above even worse. Women over age 33 proceed to act like the way they act in a dating environment and are virtually never called out on it, except in "safe" areas like here online.
If an over-33 woman never sees anything like the manosphere she can spend literally years dating guys and never have any guy ever notify her that what she's doing is simply forcing the more successful, masculine, confident, dynamic men to date women younger than her. And again, it has nothing whatsoever to do with how she looks or how younger women look, though that's the first reason she'll point to.
Most importantly, I have said it many times before and I will say it again: If men didn't put up with this kind of behavior from women, women wouldn't do it. If 90% of men over age 30 adamantly refused to spend more than $10-$15 on any date prior to having sex, women over 33 would do an almost instant 180 degree switcheroo and suddenly all their 5-dinner-dates-before-sex stuff would vanish into thin air. They would have to start having sex sooner in order to snag a quality boyfriend or husband.
There are already dynamics like this in countries where prostitution is legal and easily accessible. Many guys in these countries tell me that non-prostitute women get to sex with men they're dating very quickly, because they know if they don't, that guy can take the same amount of money he's spending on that dinner date and just go have sex with a hooker, often one better looking and better in bed than the woman he's on a date with. I'm not a big fan of prostitutes myself, but it does illustrate the point.
Conversely, in a society where most women of a certain age range make men wait for sex and where most men of equivalent age put up with that system, these women will continue to get free time, attention, compliments, ass-kissing, dinners, drinks and gifts from men they've never had sex with, all the while looking down their noses at younger women and the more desirable, exciting, masculine men who date them. As is usually the case, it starts with men.
Want over 35 hours of how-to podcasts on how to improve your woman life and financial life? Want to be able to coach with me twice a month? Want access to hours of technique-based video and audio? The SMIC Program is a monthly podcast and coaching program where you get access to massive amounts of exclusive, members-only Alpha 2.0 content as soon as you sign up, and you can cancel whenever you want. Click here for the details.
When men point out that women under 33 don't usually do these things, these older women will imply strongly that younger women are stupid or sluts. It doesn't occur to these older women that very attitude is part of exactly what turns men off. It's all of THAT stuff that makes older women less attractive to strong, confident, high sex drive men. It has nothing whatsoever to do with how they look. Most older men consider older women extremely beautiful and sexy, myself included.
Being Honest About What You Want
To GOB's point, men over 30 in the real world are not going to say anything I just said. They don't want their wives or girlfriends to yell at them. They don't want to be called pigs. They don't want to screw up their chances with the woman they're currently working on. They want nods of approval from all the other women over 33 they know and work with.
Like most domesticated, pussified, betaized men in modern society, they just shut the fuck up and remain in line like good little boys who obey the will of the feminized, politically correct collective. This makes the problem I described above even worse. Women over age 33 proceed to act like the way they act in a dating environment and are virtually never called out on it, except in "safe" areas like here online.
If an over-33 woman never sees anything like the manosphere she can spend literally years dating guys and never have any guy ever notify her that what she's doing is simply forcing the more successful, masculine, confident, dynamic men to date women younger than her. And again, it has nothing whatsoever to do with how she looks or how younger women look, though that's the first reason she'll point to.
Most importantly, I have said it many times before and I will say it again: If men didn't put up with this kind of behavior from women, women wouldn't do it. If 90% of men over age 30 adamantly refused to spend more than $10-$15 on any date prior to having sex, women over 33 would do an almost instant 180 degree switcheroo and suddenly all their 5-dinner-dates-before-sex stuff would vanish into thin air. They would have to start having sex sooner in order to snag a quality boyfriend or husband.
There are already dynamics like this in countries where prostitution is legal and easily accessible. Many guys in these countries tell me that non-prostitute women get to sex with men they're dating very quickly, because they know if they don't, that guy can take the same amount of money he's spending on that dinner date and just go have sex with a hooker, often one better looking and better in bed than the woman he's on a date with. I'm not a big fan of prostitutes myself, but it does illustrate the point.
Conversely, in a society where most women of a certain age range make men wait for sex and where most men of equivalent age put up with that system, these women will continue to get free time, attention, compliments, ass-kissing, dinners, drinks and gifts from men they've never had sex with, all the while looking down their noses at younger women and the more desirable, exciting, masculine men who date them. As is usually the case, it starts with men.
Want over 35 hours of how-to podcasts on how to improve your woman life and financial life? Want to be able to coach with me twice a month? Want access to hours of technique-based video and audio? The SMIC Program is a monthly podcast and coaching program where you get access to massive amounts of exclusive, members-only Alpha 2.0 content as soon as you sign up, and you can cancel whenever you want. Click here for the details.