Larry Hagman - I Dream of Jeannie

Time for another one of those piss-you-off, think-outside-the-box, smash-through-societal-programming posts. Get ready for your brain to hurt.

A quote below from a quick article by Dr. Helen. It’s indicative of a much bigger issue. Remember as you read that the below quote is written by a woman.

Should men open doors for women? I have been pondering this question lately as I have noticed that it is mostly older men that open doors for women anymore. Younger men tend to go in first and let the door hit you as you walk through.

The rest of the article suddenly shifts focus and is actually about how women these days snicker at men courteous enough to hold doors open for them, and how chivalry dying is largely women’s doing. While I generally agree with that I’m not going to talk about that today. Rather I’m going to talk about something much more important and applicable. It’s about exactly what that above quote indicates, which is something I’ve been saying for many years now.

Sometimes people attempt to challenge me by using my own daughter as an example. They’ll say something like “Well Blackdragon, would you like your own daughter to be in an OLTR or open marriage when SHE grows up???” (The answer is a resounding yes, but that’s a topic for another time.) Sometimes the question will be “Well Blackdragon, when your daughter is 19 do you want her dating some 45 year-old guy???” The answer, again, is yes. Here’s why.

Even if the thought of a forty-something (or hell, even fifty-something) man dating a 19, 22, or 25 year-old woman fills you with disgust and anger, try this experiment. Do your best to be as rational, factual, and non-emotional as possible while doing it. (Which for some of you, particularly some of you older female readers, is going to be difficult.)

Picture in your mind the typical 22 year-old guy these days. Remember I said the typical 22 year-old guy. See him in your mind? Okay. Let me ask you a few questions:

How much money does he make? Does he own a car? How responsible is he? How sexually responsible is he? How nicely does he treat women? How honest is he? What are his living conditions like? Any smoking or drinking or pot or drugs? How emotionally controlled is he? How stable is his life?

Okay. Now erase him from your brain. Make sure he’s all gone.

Now, picture in your mind the typical 45 year-old guy. Again, be sure to visualize the typical 45 year-old man. Got it? Now let’s consider the same questions:

How much money does he make? Does he own a car? How responsible is he? How sexually responsible is he? How nicely does he treat women? How honest is he? What are his living conditions like? Any smoking or drinking or pot or drugs? How emotionally controlled is he? How stable is his life?

Now here’s the question. Given those two men, which man would you rather your 19 year-old daughter date? Which of those two men are going to treat her better? Which of those two men are better able to take care of her, or more importantly will WANT to take care of her? Here’s a big one: Which of those men are going to be physically safer for her?

If you immediately choose the 22 year-old guy based on those questions, you’re just being emotional, irrational, and if you live in the western world, are simply falling prey to your societal programming (since many Asian moms and dads would overwhelmingly choose the 45 year-old guy for their daughter).

You’re also likely skewing the above two examples to fit your emotional biases. Instead of comparing two typical examples, you’re comparing a polite, smart, put-together, clean-cut, employed, straight-A, responsible 22 year-old guy with a fat, ugly, creepy, pedophile-looking, shifty-eyed 45 year-old guy.

Don’t tell me you’re not doing that just a little bit. I know you are. Neither of those cases are typical or accurate, and you know it. You know that most modern-day 22 year-old guys might be nice, but they also tend to be irresponsible, overly emotional, a little lazy, and have very little resources, financial or otherwise. You also know that the typical 45 year-old guy is not creepy at all, but just a normal, boring working guy, with an income and level of maturity and responsibility the typical 22 year-old guy can only dream of. I’ll say it one more time, we’re talking about what’s typical, not the unusual exceptions to the rule which we all know exist.

I would be more than happy if my daughter, when she was in her late teens or early twenties, introduced me to her 35 or 45 year-old boyfriend. Yes, it would really piss me off if he was a creepy, weird older man, but that’s because he was weird and creepy, not older. I know most older men aren’t weird or creepy, and I also know my daughter wouldn’t be attracted to those kinds of men in the first place.

(At least I hope so. It’s always possible my daughter could grow up to be a complete moron, but that’s not super likely.)

I also can tell you with 100% honesty that if my daughter introduced me to her new 22 year-old boyfriend, I would actually be a little suspicious and at least slightly concerned. I know many 22 year-old guys. I myself used to be a 22 year-old guy. I know how they work. I would happily take a typical 45 year-old beta male guy instead of that.

You might be thinking, “Well, why are 22 and 45 my only choices? What about a slightly older man?” A ‘slightly’ older man still means a guy in his 20’s. I don’t know if you’ve been keeping up with the economic stats, but these days men in their 20’s aren’t doing too hot in terms of income. Women in their 20’s are beating them out. Men are also waiting longer and longer to move out of their mommy and daddy’s homes. It’s not uncommon these days to see guys as old as 26 still living at home with parents, and still spending a huge amount of time playing Call of Duty rather than getting out in the world and building a life.

Just in the past month or so I’ve talked to two different guys in their late 20’s met through my work/social circle, and I’m not kidding, talking to them was like talking to a 16 year-old. Every other word was “dude” or “buddy” the the topics forefront in their minds were things like comic books, getting drunk, and fantasizing about sex with hookers in Thailand. Even their tonality and voice inflections were equivalent to teenagers. I see more and more of this.

If you go past the 20’s, now you’re talking about men in their 30’s, who do often have their shit together. Like I said, if my 19 year-old daughter was dating a dude in his 30’s, I’d be cool with that. You should be too.

By the way, I’m not bashing young men. Over the last several years as Blackdragon I’ve talked to a huge amount of young guys and I’ve been extremely impressed and proud at the level of intelligence and depth I’ve seen. I’m just talking about norms and averages here.

Moreover, it’s not all about income and resources. Just like Dr. Helen noted, the older the man, the more courteous and protective he’ll be to a woman he’s dating. He’ll also be less prone to fly off the handle when upset, less likely to get her pregnant on accident, less likely to be out getting drunk with her at 2am on a Tuesday night, etc, etc, etc.

In general, and there are always exceptions, older men treat younger women better than younger men do. It’s a fact, and Dr. Helen and I are not the first to say it. Women worship Steve Harvey’s relationship books like Think Like A Man. When younger women ask him what to do to find a quality boyfriend, he always answers the same way: “Date an older man. He’ll treat you right. Men your age have no interest.”

When I talk about older men dating younger women, I’m not just talking about men doing it for their own benefit. I’m also talking about having a relationship where both people are getting the best deal. A young woman dating an older man is getting a very good deal, especially if she and he take my advice and keep the relationship open. That way, she can have the love and caring of an older man while still being able to occasionally go fuck hot young dumb guys with six pack abs. (And of course, he can go fuck some blonde cheerleaders on the side too. Fair is fair.) I myself have had more than one serious relationship like this and it’s amazingly good, for both parties.

Now for the objections I know some of you have…

I’m not not saying dating older women is bad. Other than the get-to-sex fast problem with women over age 33 I’ve described before, which in my defense is a big problem, I think older women are fantastic. There are two over-30 women in my life at the moment and I love them both. I’ll explain the positives of older women in further detail in a future post, but what I’m saying here is a 45 year-old man should be able to date a 19, 21, or 25 year-old woman just as easily as a 45 year-old woman. Both are good situations, not just the one with the older gal.

I am also not saying that a man dating a much younger woman would be a perfect Disney experience. Yes, a 52 year-old guy with a 20 year-old gal on his arm would get some strange looks at the office party. (However if he was outcome independent he wouldn’t give a shit, and if he was confident, no one at the party would have the balls to call him on it.)

Yes, an 18 year-old gal and a 47 year-old guy are not going to have as many common points of reference as a normal forty-something couple. And yes, younger women are still women, and can be immature, so a man dating one is still in for some irrationality and drama occasionally (and breakups and cheating if they get monogamous, which I would never recommend anyway).

All valid points. None of these kinds of things are deal breakers, at least not in my view. And I speak from experience; my own personal experience plus the experience of men my age (I’m 40) or older (sometimes much older) who have done this.

I have already predicted, and I stick to this prediction, that as society evolves, as:

1. Men become more pussified and women become tougher,

2. People who age keep looking younger and younger,

3. Asia rises and the west falls, albeit slowly,

…the western world will slowly start to come to grips with the reality that older men with younger women, sometimes much younger, is a good deal. In a few decades it will become as normal as it is now in many Asian cultures. Just watch.

25 Comments on “Older Men Dating Younger Women

  1. So, if you’re a man in his 30s, 40s or 50s AND you look after yourself and have the 6-pack, you must be “The Most Interesting Man in the World”. 🙂

  2. Yup, the well-established older man with the 6-pack is going to have a huge competitive advantage. Now, if only I could figure out a way to have the 10-inch cock…

  3. Excellent post. Have you ever read R. Don Steele’s infamous “How to Date Young Women…for Men Over 35”? I think you would agree with much of his book, though you’ve taken it a lot further than he did. If you only get a chance to read one part of his book, read his section on why he prefers dating young women over those his own age…it’s like a mirror image of this post.

    Though Ross doesn’t acknowledge it, Don Steele was one of Ross Jeffries’ early teachers, which makes Don a sort of great godfather of the seduction community.

    I do think there’s one error in your post: the west will not fall slowly. Do you read the economic press much? Jon Corzine’s getting away with the biggest theft in human history is just the tip of the iceberg; the world financial system is now fraud all the way down. Expect fireworks soon.

  4. @thechauvinistkaiser Yeah I have but I never stick with it for a long time. Have you had some decent gains with it? I felt like I was doing it for the sake of keeping up with the joneses. Maybe I can multitask a jelqing routine while scanning through OKC profiles or somethin’ like that.

  5. Kelvin, jelquing is not the only way to get gains. Check this out: http://www.goodlookingloser.com/exercises-to-increase-penis/penis-enhancement-routine/

    On topic, my own dad is 16 years older than my mom (they were 40 and 24 when they got married) so I can tell from experience it is indeed a very positive thing. Off course, they fight and have ocassional drama, like every married couple on earth. But they are still married, and I think my mom still respects and loves my father a lot. In the 20 years I live with them, she NEVER badmouthed or disrecspected my father in front or me or my brother, and my dad never said anything negative about her either. Its certainly not the perfect marriage but its way better than average.

    BTW, in latinamerica (where I come from) its also quite common to see young girls with older guys. There are plenty of poor people here, and if you are a girl from a poor family, marrying an older guy with money its pretty much the best chance you got for getting out of poverty. Here its not really “bad seen” if you are an odler guy dating a very young women, but what everyone is going to be saying on your back is “she is probably just dating him for the money”.

  6. I have a much less advantage than Alejandro, my dad is too insecure and weak, while my mom is too strong a woman. It causes big imbalance, resulting in her ruling over our education.I think all young males need good and big daddies, that’s a must. If you don’t have your dad as a role-model, then it takes more time for you to learn to be a man.

    I have always noticed older actors get sexier and sexier as they aged. Brat Pitt looks much better now than when he was younger.

  7. 1) At work this week, a typical beta herb was making fun of and complaining about someone who was 21 and dating a 17 or 18year old. I’m 24 and I hooked up with an 18yr this summer. I called him out saying he’s a wuss who’s too worried about what other people think and then laughed saying “a hot girl doesn’t stop being hot just because you got a bit older…” – you should have seen the look on his face.

    2) Ale and Isi – yeah, my dad used to be pretty domineering and now he re-married some total cunt. Everything he says or does is so approval seeking its nauseating at times. Like at the mall I was flirting with the checkout girl and teasing her and my dad says “son you just do whatever she says, its how things work” then winked at her as if that was tight game. WOW…

  8. That was a terrible post, BD! So……older men are chivalrous chumps who open doors for women, are more likely to spend money on them, not less, and pander more to the Disney fantasies of these narcissistic princess bitches, and you say that that is a good thing?????????????

    First, why should a woman care how much money her man makes?

    Second, why should the princess expect any man to “take care of her?”

    Third, wouldn’t it be better for women to go out with younger men, and therefore, become unspoiled, cured of their narcissism and gold digging ways, and open their own fucking doors?

    Fourth, wouldn’t dating older men (read: white knights/providers) lead to the opposite – an entire generation of women even more stuck up and accustomed to being treated like royalty?

    The cure for female narcissism is the younger man! He will never open doors for her. He will drag her, kicking and screaming, into the land of equality! Maybe if she’s dating a poor man, it will motivate her to get off her lazy ass and do something useful without expecting royal treatment. Just a thought.

  9. @ Johnny – Yes, I know R Don Steele’s stuff. Love the guy. While I don’t agree with everything he does (i.e. he’s been married and divorced 3 times) I strongly agree with his overall concepts.

    And yes, I know all about Corzine. Because of him I am now researching how to get all of my investments not only out of US dollars (which they already are) but also completely out of US financial institutions, which the courts have just ruled can do whatever the hell they want with your deposited money with no recourse on your part. Nice.

    @ Isidia – Men do indeed get better looking as they age, generally speaking. I’m no looker, but I look noticeably better now at age 40 than I did in my late 20’s.

    @ Jack – Put this blog post in context of everything else I’ve ever said. Anyone who’s read a decent amount of my stuff knows I don’t spend money on women and that I’m hugely against traditional concepts of providership. However, I do open doors for women, I am very protective of my women, I am respectful to my women, I don’t raise my voice at my women, I assist women in their lives in many important ways (but not by buying things for them!), and I never make false promises to my women.

    I do all of this while not buying them anything and never giving them monogamy or Disney, even if they demand these things, and NEXTING them if they ever give me any shit. See the difference?

    As always, I am NOT recommending older men become monogamous AFC beta male providers.

  10. Isidia- are you blind??!! Brad Pitt was way hot when he was younger but he’s not even cute anymore. 😛 Average at best.

    Anyway, according to you BD women over 33 should basically either be spinsters and all alone or fucking 20 yr old losers or 70 yr old wrinkly dudes so I cant really agree with you as a 35 yr old woman. None of the above appeals to me. I generally prefer guys around my own age as far as physical attraction and have no desire to fuck guys who are too young to know what they are doing anymore than I want to be with those who cant get it up anymore.

    However I will give you this. The Professor guy I have been seeing is 43. 8 yrs older than me and the oldest I have ever been with. I have to say I have never been treated that well by a guy in my life. He is straightforward and honest and really respectful, doesn’t play games, looks out for me, is protective, opens doors and always pays for everything. He LISTENS to me too and is a good communicator. Plus he is incredible in bed and its an open relationship. So far he is blowing the 30 something’s out of the water because they are still unreliable and full of shit, lol. Still some immaturity hanging on. I think the age difference can add a bit of hotness to the sex too but you have to admit that the VAST majority of over 40 men are not physically attractive and especially not to a 20 yr old. Most men do not take great care of themselves and let it all go and that’s just gross.

  11. 1. No matter what happens, women in their 30’s and 40’s will always have plenty of men in their 30’s and 40’s available to them to choose from. So don’t worry.

    2. Yes, many men let themselves go after 40. That’s why I keep telling them to not do that.

  12. How much money does he make? Does he own a car? How responsible is he? How sexually responsible is he? How nicely does he treat women? How honest is he? What are his living conditions like? Any smoking or drinking or pot or drugs? How emotionally controlled is he? How stable is his life?

    —-

    All of these are important to you, as the father looking out for his daughter, but totally irrelevant to her sexual attraction to a guy.

    For me, I wouldn’t want a daughter to end up with a beta male – he might be chivalrous and stuff but he’d also be boring. Most guys are afcs and are therefore overly emotional regardless of their age. He might treat your daughter real good, but he’ll never excite her. I can’t think of a worse life than boredom and wouldn’t wish it upon anyone, least of all my own daughter.

    You seem to focus a lot on income, and the whole “not moving out early” thing but, to me, it represents a shift in thinking, a difference between the generations rather than a reflection on the ages. All the guys I know (parents’ friends, rugby club, work etc) who are in their late-30s/early-40s+ are very traditional, they believe in the corporate ladder, settling down and all that jazz. That, for my location at least, is the “typical” 45-year old of your post. The younger guys though, and this again is based on a sort of average of the people I know, are more about enjoying life and its experience. The idea that you get a job at 18, get married by 25, kids by 30, white picket fence is an obsolete idea. In a very informal survey (i.e. just people who I’ve spoken to) it’s more often the 45 year old group rather than the 22 year old group who ever have stuff to say about my open relationship status, so monogamy is much less of a standard for younger people (although most of them end up in monogamous arrangements, but that’s no different from the 45 year old group as well).

    Another example I picked up on is getting drunk at 2am on a Tuesday. FWIW I’ve been drunk at that specific time many times, and I know lots of girls who have also been drunk at 2am on a Tuesday. Some of them got drunk with me, some of them got drunk by myself. That’s just what us kids do sometimes 😉 Why would I want to deny my own children the opportunity to do the same? If my children decided to smoke, drink or do drugs, why would that bother me? It’s nothing that I haven’t tried for myself.

    Your argument essentially seems to be “Older Men Are Good For Younger Women IF they’re looking for a beta provider.” That I agree with – obviously financials make that almost a given. When it comes to someone as important as my own daughter to me though, I imagine that the age would be irrelevant – when it’s that important to someone I care about, the statistics and the likelihoods don’t mean a single thing compared to the guy standing in front of me. If he’s a prick, I don’t care if he’s 18 or 80 or anywhere in between I’m going to dislike him. If he’s a total beta it won’t make any difference to me what age he is. Likewise, if he’s cool, alpha, has his shit together, then again, his age is somewhat irrelevant.

    Thinking about the experiment, if my daughter was young, and I think about the typical 22 year old I know and the typical 45 year old I know, I most likely would say the 22 year old, because he’s more likely to be fun, and less likely to be overly serious. Aside from provider qualities, I don’t see any advantage to the older man over the younger – if they’re typical then they’re both betas/afcs which means there’s bound to be drama and monogamy-demands coming from both age-ranges. So my decision gets based on which do I think my potential daughter would have more fun with… and I’ve got to say I believe it would be with the typical younger guy.

    You ask for a logical, rational discussion but the pure idea of asking about a daughter is asking a lot of guys to emotionally think about protective instincts. A lot of guys have ASD for their daughters and sisters etc and so when you mention protection and the like, people are going to be drawn to that. But that’s what THE FATHER wants and pays no mind to what the DAUGHTER wants. I want my daughter to go out there and I don’t care if she fucks one guy or one hundred. I don’t have the same ASD feelings so it wouldn’t bother me either way. All I’d want is for my daughter to be able to enjoy the life she wanted to live. Essentially you’re asking me to say what I think would be best for her, rather than allowing her to work it out for herself, but control of someone else has never been my thing.

  13. I wasn’t talking about you. Of course YOU are not an AFC, but your advice to women reading this will have the practical effect (whether intentional on your part or not) of driving them away from young alphas and towards the arms of chivalrous old betas. Let’s be honest – the older the man is, the more traditional (read AFC) he is likely to be.

    Let me break this down another way. Let’s say your daughter is sleeping with two men at the same time. One is 22 and the other is 45. Just based on their ages, which of the two do you think is treating her more like a chivalrous beta and encouraging her latent narcissism and sense of entitlement/snobbery? There’s a reason why most traditional mainstream thinkers (conservatives) echo your opinion on this matter. They want their daughters treated like princesses by older men, not like equals by the younger.

    Also, most of your questions (his money, car, and the like) are “provider-hunting” questions only, NOT questions girls would ask of men whom they want to have great sex with. Why would you, of all people, expect women to ask young guys provider hunting questions and then go to the older men when those younger guys answer them wrongly?

    I believe you were thinking of your daughter when you wrote this. Your subconscious mind wants her to be with a provider (thus explaining your beta questions), because no beta nerd is ever going to rape her. I cannot fault you for this. You are, after all, a loving father. But I think you need to recognize when your subconscious is playing tricks on you.

    @Zylya: Brilliant!

  14. BD — when you finish your research about how to get your money out safely, can you post about it here? I want to do the same thing!

    Thanks. (And thanks again for the awesome workshop.)

  15. That part about the office party reminds me of the embassy scene from Spy Game where Robert Redford’s date for the party is a much younger woman. Another woman closer to his own age comments that his “scotch is older than she is.” He responds “Am I supposed to feel bad about that?” 🙂

  16. @lovegirl: What each person find attractive varies significantly, and what women find attractive are essentially different from men. I respect your opinion, but given my background, which is an essential part of my psyche, I like older men.

    However, I notice that if you are older, you should reach certain success in your life, if not by the strength of your characters, than by something more superficial, such as an inheritance from your parents. In the case of Blackdragon, it is the story of a self-made man, thus just the sheer strength of his characters plus the success he has achieved is enough to draw beautiful women to him.

    The trouble with older men I know in my life is that they are just not that successful. Those hardcore warriors back in the Vietnam War are going to see Heaven, leaving behind a new generation behind in weakness. Older men in the West are that much different either.

    I find if you are an attractive guys, than as you aged, you still have much more chances than any average guys, though your success rate will narrow down somewhat due to the decrease of your physical attractiveness.

    Just that I think women like different things in younger and older men, but the core masculinity must remain the same. Youth brings you high octane energy and hope, seniority brings you wisdom. This both applies to both men and women. Sadly, only men are capable of learning this well, women don’t.

  17. @Jack and Zylya – I’ll have to refer you back to the comment I made above. To summarize:

    1. I am in no way recommending provider behaviors to older men in order to score with younger women. That should be obvious.

    2. Younger women were not the target audience for that post. (Few younger read my blog anyway.) I was not writing the post to convince younger women to become gold diggers for older men. The post was a general argument directed towards everyone else. I realize I didn’t make that obvious. My bad.

    3. A man (older or younger) can be respectful and protective of a woman without being a beta provider in any way, per the specific examples I gave in my prior comment.

    @Johnny – I don’t I want to advertise that kind information publicly, but I could send you an email when I get it all figured out. 🙂

  18. The problem with young men is not money but it’s immaturity. And please young guys stop saying women are dating older men for money… they are not bitches. They prefer dating older men because you guys have never been taught how to be men.

    Let’s face it, a 25 years old man now is an immature boy compared to a same age man 30 years ago. 25 years old women on the other hand are as mature as they were 30 years ago.

    And guess what ? Women want to date men: They don’t want to date immature boys

  19. Yeah, a 20-something year-old woman is REALLY gonna become a better wife, or more importantly, MOTHER, by having some 50-year-old guy shtupping it to her. Clear logic.

  20. Marriage? Dude I’m not talking about marrying these chicks. Marrying a 20 year-old would be insane, as I’ve said on here before. (Legal marriage to any woman would be insane.)

  21. I think every guy has his own concept about choosing a woman. Most of these guys select younger women because they want to feel young again. Older men dating or marrying younger women is common. However, not all women are the same you know? Some women are cold but some are hot. That’s right. Most of these old men who are with young women, are rich. So, these women are not supportive to men which they usually depend on their men. In other words, young women who like older men are those who like either matured men or materials.

  22. I’m 42. My last girlfriend (for a year and a half) was 18 when we started going out (I was 41 at the time). My current girlfriend is 26. I disagree with Anny. I’m not choosing younger girls to feel youn again. I’m choosing them because they are fit and healthy, have awesome bodies, loads of sexual energy, and do cool stuff like turning up in fabulous lingerie … Shallow? Probably. I don’t care however, I’m having fun, they’re having fun…

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