I’ve been avoiding talking about this topic for over two years now, but it has reached a point where sugar daddy dating sites (SDD) are indeed now a significant part of the online dating landscape. For the time being, these sites are here to stay, and will have an effect (positive or negative) on all dating (online or otherwise) for the next several years at least.
In a moment, I’ll get to my opinions on this, as well as my experiences running a few experiments on these sites, and whether or not these sites can plug into an Alpha Male 2.0 lifestyle. Before that, I have to be clear about one thing.
Sugar Daddy Dating Site Game and Online Game Are Similar, But Not The Same
SDD is online game. Many, if not most of the concepts and techniques, are the same. At the same time, there are some very strong differences. If you go to a site like Seeking Arrangement using the exact same profile and messaging techniques as you used on OKCupid with no changes whatsoever, you’re going to get nowhere fast, and waste a hell of a lot of time. The same goes if you go to OKCupid or Match.com and try to run sugar daddy game.
So be aware that not all the techniques are the same. There are very clear differences. Perhaps I’ll go into more detail in a future post regarding the specifics, but I don’t want this article to run too long.
The Issue of Spending Money
Those of you who have read my stuff for a long time know that my goal is to get to sex via online dating sites as fast as humanly possible while spending the minimum amount of money, and use this as a source to generate long-term non-monogamous relationships. Let’s analyze this in the context of SDD.
Does SDD game violate that “minimum amount of money” condition? Yes.
As I will discuss in a minute, even if you don’t actually pay these women money to have sex with you, your first dates (and second dates, if you have them) are going to cost way, way more than the typical Blackdragon first/second date. My grand total meet-to-sex money-spending average these days is same as it’s ever been: around $19 not including gas. That’s both first and second date, combined. One-third of the time it’s zero dollars. This is rarely going to happen on an SDD site. It will happen sometimes if you’re good, but it will not be the norm.
Does this mean that SDD sites are always a bad idea? No. Many men at my age and income level believe, not incorrectly, that slapping down $100-$200 (in date costs or sugar baby costs), instantly bypassing all the time and effort to learn and practice “game,” is a good deal in terms of time management. They are technically correct. If spending $100-$200 every time you want to have sex or go out on a first date is no big deal to you, and you’ve got a decently high income with little debt, and you’re a busy guy, then yeah, spending that kind of money to have sex with young hotties who are not quite as STD-ridden as a professional prostitute might be okay in your case.
I have discussed when and how to spend money on women both in a dating/seduction environment and in a relationship environment here and here. Read those articles if you want more detail on this important topic.
Is Sugar Daddy Game Really Game?
The next issue, which I have seen hotly debated on various pickup forums for several years now, is the contention that the sugar daddy game “doesn’t count”. It’s “not game”. It “doesn’t require any self-improvement” or “moving out of your comfort zone”. Some have even said that it’s “not Alpha”.
On the other side, pro-sugar daddy dudes say yes, indeed it is a game just like any other type of game, and there is a skill and art that’s needed in order to be successful.
Just like with Democrats and Republicans, the answer is somewhere in the middle.
Does some level of game play a role? Yes. Some. Picture some disgusting-looking, dumpy, a-hole Asperger’s guy walking up to a young hottie in a club, slapping down $1000 cash, and saying, “Have sex with me! I’ll give you $1000!!!” Will that work? Nope. He’s not going to have sex with her no matter how much money he throws at her.
It works the same on SDD sites. Ugly, dumpy, uncalibrated, needy, high-income betas constantly hit on the the women there and throw out huge and insane offers (“I’ll give you $8,000 a month!!!”), and most of these guys don’t get laid.
So yes, some baseline level of game is required to make sugar daddy game work.
Does SDD game require the same amount of game as “normal” online game? No. Online game is harder and does require more skill. This is particularly if you do end up paying the girl, either in cash or a fancy date. With normal online game, my response rates are horrible, and I can’t screw up at any point of the process: from the profile, to the online communication, to the date pitch, to the first real-life date, and to the second real-life date where I escalate to sex. Any misstep on my part during any of those stages, and I lose the girl fast. I still get laid, and online game works, but you got to be good and can’t screw up. That’s what my online game ebook is all about.
With sugar daddy game, my response rates are insanely high (30-50% instead of my usual 5-8%), and I can really relax. I can do all kinds of things wrong and still get laid. Yes, there’s a level of game and appearance I must maintain, but it’s WAY easier than normal online game, assuming I have no problem jacking up the amount of money I’m willing to spend on women or dates. That’s exactly why sugar daddy game has become so popular: it’s easier for normal, non-player men to do. It’s become a huge rage among married beta males. (This recent hubub about Ashley Madison is stupid; that’s not where all the married men are having affairs. They’re having their affairs at these sugar daddy sites.)
A final argument would be that if you intend on paying women, that doesn’t require as much game, but if you intend on doing SDD with the intention of not paying the women and getting laid for “free” (and remember, “free” in this context means you’re still often spending $100-$200 on dates), then that does require game. This is more or less correct. As I’m about to show, I’ve had sex with women from SDD sites without paying them, and it did require effort. Also as I’m about to show, the extra effort wasn’t worth the results.
My Experiments and Results
Over the last 24 months, I’ve run three experiments on several SDD sites. I had different goals for different experiments, and it would take too much time to go into the specific details here. The bottom line was that I wanted to determine four things:
1. How much time was required to get laid via SDD. I usually have sex within 3-4 total hours of face time with a new woman using normal online game (provided they’re under the age of 33).
2. How often I could get laid for a Blackdragon-acceptable dollar amount via SDD. In my world, that means I’ve spent less than $30 total for both first and second dates, total, pre-sex. Zero dollars, as always, is ideal.
3. How easy it is to get to sex without paying the women any cash via SDD.
4. How much extra effort, if any, was required to accomplish the above four items via SDD over normal online game at a site like OKC or POF (I no longer use Tinder; it’s no longer workable for men my age).
On the first experiment, I simply tried to get to sex with women as cheaply as possible, but I allowed the possibility that I might have to pay a few, and if so, how much? Yes, that sounds like Blackdragon heresy, and it is, but like I said this was an experiment. I haven’t changed anything about my overall game and these days, I still spend a grand-total average of $19 from meet-to-sex. I make plenty of money, so spending a few bucks on one or two experiments to jack that number up temporarily, in order to gather data, was an acceptable price to me.
Indeed, on the third experiment, I was adamant that I wasn’t going to pay any money to anyone, but spending a little extra on the date if necessary was okay.
How did I do? My results:
1. From three SDD blitzes (covering a period of two years going back to 2013), I had sex with 15 different women.
2. Seven of these women cost me between 0 – 50 dollars, grand total everything, meet-to-sex. Two of them cost me literally zero, three of them cost me less than $30 on normal Blackdragon first/second dates, and two more cost me more than $30 because they insisted I pay for something (one wanted help with gas and the other wanted me to buy her sunglasses, which I did in both cases). Site note: for all three experiments I only opened women under age 23 to ensure minimum ASD and minimum inflexible gold-digger behaviors, though I did end up with two who were over this age because they opened me first.
3. The other eight of these 15 women cost me way too much: between $120 and $300, grand total everything meet-to-sex. I paid cash to some in the experiment, some of them demanded more extravagant dates, others demanded gifts. It made my skin crawl to pay this money, but again, I was conducting three temporary experiments in order to gather data just like any other researcher. The things I do for you guys! (I don’t recommend doing something like this if you don’t have a high income and low debt).
4. The slight good news is that just about all of these women (14 out of 15) fell within the 3-4 hour face time window for meet-to-sex. The other good news is that all of them were very attractive. Women on SDD sites are indeed more attractive than most women you’ll find on a normal dating site. (However, I have sex with plenty of attractive women on normal dating sites; it requires going through the numbers, which admittedly takes more time, and paying the sites (like OKCupid) their monthly fee to open up the better-looking women. Therefore, this attractiveness aspect isn’t really a big new difference for me.)
Reading that, some may view my results as a success. Seven out of 15 women falling under the Blackdragon parameters are pretty good, isn’t it? That’s a 47% success rate! I should be excited about this, right?
No. I’ll tell you why.
How SDD Women Differ From Normal Dating Site Women
Women on SDD sites are radically different than women on normal sites, and in many ways you wouldn’t expect. Here are the three primary differences:
1. They tend to be hotter. That’s the obvious one.
2. They get boyfriends very fast. I’m talking VERY fast, far faster than hot girls you’d meet using any other dating mechanism. Sugar babies do not stay single for long. You can often end up having sex with one of these gals one or two times, then bam, she vanishes, stops responding to your texts, and has a new beta boyfriend on her Facebook page.
Another common occurrence is that another sugar daddy who offers to pay her money (or more money, as the case may be) will scoop her up fast, and again, she’s gone.
This makes sense if you think about it. If you were a young, hot girl, craving money and attention, with mountains of guys begging you to give you both of these things, would you stay single? Probably not.
Monogamy still doesn’t work of course, so as always, these relationships don’t work out and sometimes the girls come back just like with any other LSFNTE. The problem here is that they vanish much more quickly than normal woman; often just after a few dates. In almost a decade of consistent online dating, I’ve never seen a group of women dump you and get beta boyfriends as fast as women on SDD sites. It’s amazing to watch.
3. They demand money (or things that cost money), even if they are genuinely attracted to you. Don’t think that just because she’ll be attracted to you she’ll want zero money spent on her in an ongoing relationship. That’s not how they work. In terms of this, women on SDD sites fall into three categories:
1. Hardcore Sugar Babies. These are hooker-like women who have their solid “price,” will not negotiate on it (much), and will not have sex with you unless you pay up, no matter how strong your game is or even if they’re attracted to you. If you don’t agree to their price they’re gone in a flash, onto the next high-income beta male who will agree to their fee. This represents the majority of the women on these sites, making up at least 65-70% of the women on there.
2. Successful-Boyfriend Seekers. These women aren’t sugar babies in that they won’t demand money-or-nothing. Of course they will take money if offered (and most men on these sites do offer, a lot, so these women happily take it). However, making money is only their secondary objective. Instead, these women are Type 2 VYW whose primary objective is to date a successful guy. Therefore, if you have strong game and do everything right, often you can score with these ladies without paying anything. However, they will still expect you to be A) older and B) classier and/or higher income than average. They will also (usually) expect more gifts, fancy dates, and/or financial support if you continue to see them beyond sex once or twice. This is the smallest category of women on SDD sites, perhaps about 10%.
3. Newbies. These are the new girls who have never done an “arrangement” before and are on there only because they need help with college tuition or supporting their kid (lots of single mothers on SDD sites). As such, they aren’t as jaded or battle-hardened as the Hardcore Sugar Babies, and are much more flexible when it comes to money. If you have strong game, often you can have sex without paying anything. However, if you want to continue to see them, they’ll expect some money, or they’ll move on to a beta boyfriend or needy, beta sugar daddy who will happily provide the cash you refuse to give her that she “needs.” These women represent perhaps 20% of the women on SDD sites.
If all you want are one night stands or very short term relationships, SDD sites will do the job if you are financially able to throw around some cash. For that reason SDD sites are the high-income, Thrill of the Hunt man’s dream come true.
However, I don’t do one night stands. I only do long-term relationships. I also don’t like to spend a lot of money during my relationships unless she’s an OLTR (which is rare in my life). On SDD sites, this is almost impossible, for the reasons I stated above. Most women aren’t interested in something beyond a few lays. The few women who will agree to something truly consistent and ongoing will demand money up-front (Hardcore Sugar Babies), or eventually demand money after you have sex a few times (Newbies), or demand gifts/dates that cost money (Successful-Boyfriend Seekers).
On top of all that, even if you do pull off some kind of ongoing thing, the odds are that she’ll very quickly vanish to get a beta boyfriend (much faster than a attractive non-sugar-baby woman would) or a higher-paying sugar daddy.
Out the 15 women I’ve had sex with via SDD sites, I was only able to carry on an ongoing relationship at zero cost with one of them. There were an additional three whom I was able to maintain as an experiment, but I had to throw some money at them to keep them around. Not good.
This really sucks for a Pleasure of Sex guy like me. One out of 15 is only a 7% success rate for creating an ongoing relationship. With normal online game, my success rate for this is literally 100% for every woman I have sex with at least twice. 100% vs 7%. Like I said, not good. At least for me.
That’s the bottom line to all of this. If you’re an older guy with a higher income, and like one night stands and/or very short term relationships with hot younger women, you’ll love SDD sites. You’ll be like a kid in a candy store.
But if you like only long-term, ongoing relationships and you don’t want to throw a lot of money during these relationships, SDD sites aren’t going to work for you as a source for these things.
Therefore, SDD sites only cater to the Thrill of the Hunt market and the guy-who-doesn’t-mind-spending-hunks-of-money market. Men in other categories are going to have to stick with normal online game for the time being, perhaps only using SDD is a side-supplement.